Whats so bad about satanism?

[Banpen Fugyo]

I havent had enough time to read a lot of the Satanic bible, but the more I read it, the more I like it. Besides its obvious contradiction to Christianity, its actually very well worded.

Nine Satanic statements
I Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence!
-Is that evil? Since when is experiencing things bad?
II Satan represents vital existence, instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
-So 'he' represents the Self
III Satan represents undefiled wisdom, instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
-Self knowledge instead of following others...hmm
IV Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates!
-Kinda mean, but doesnt seem like a bad idea
V Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek!
-Dont necessarily agree with
VI Satan represents responsibility to the responsible, instead of concern for psychic vampires!
-Make sense
VII Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all fours, who, because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual development, has become the most vicious animal of all!
-Oh so very true, it seems satanism is quite "Natural"
VIII Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
-You only live once right?
IX Satan is the best friend the church has ever had, as he has kept it in business all these years!
-LOL, oh so true.

---------------------

Satanic Rules:
I Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.

II Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure that they want to hear them.

III When in another's lair, show him respect or else do not go there.

IV If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.

V Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.

VI Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the person and he cries out to be relieved.

VII Acknowledge the power of magic if you have used it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

VIII Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.

IX Do not harm little children.

X Do not kill non-human animals unless attacked or for your food.

XI When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.

Haha, I like that last one.
--------------
Satanic Sins:
For years, people have asked Church of Satan representatives, "Well, okay - your philosophy is based on indulgence of human instincts but do you have sins like any other religion?" Our answer has always been "No". But the time has come to amend that response. We have grown steadily over the past 21 years and find that it is appropriate to have some clear guidelines on, not only what we strive for,but also what we work to avoid - what we disapprove of. The difference is where other religions develop sins that people can't avoid, we consider a number of things "sinful" that people could avoid if they worked a little.

Stupidity -- The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid.

Pretentiousness -- Empty posturing can be most irritating and isn't applying the cardinal rules of Lesser Magic. On equal footing with stupidity for what keeps the money in circulation these days. Everyone's made to feel like a big shot, whether they can come up with the goods or not.

Solipsism -- Can be very dangerous for Satanists. Projecting your reactions, responses and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They won't. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of "Do unto others as they do unto you." It's work for most of us and requires constant vigilance lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point.

Self-deceit -- It's in the Nine Satanic Statements but deserves to be repeated here. Another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when it's fun, and with awareness. But then, it's not self-deceit!

Herd Conformity -- That's obvious from a Satanic stance. It's all right to conform toa person's wishes, if it ultimately benefits you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely instead of being enslaved by the whims of the many.

Lack of Perspective -- Again, this one can lead to a lot of pain for a Satanist. You must never lose sight of who and what you are, and what a threat you can be, by your very existence. We are making history right now, every day. Always keep the wider historical and social picture in mind. That is an important key to both Lesser and Greater Magic. See the patterns and fit things together as you want the pieces to fall into place. Do not be swayed by herd constraints -- know that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world.

Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies -- Be aware that this is one of the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something "new" and "different," when in reality it's something that was once widely accepted but is now presented in a new package. We are expected to rave about the genius of the "creator" and forget the original. This makes for a disposable society.

Counterproductive Pride -- That first word is important. Pride is great up to the point you begin to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The rule of Satanism is: if it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when you've painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, "I'm sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow," then do it.

Lack of Aesthetics -- This is the physical application of the Balance Factor. Aesthetics is important in Lesser Magic and should be cultivated. It is obvious that no one can collect any money off classical standards of beauty and form most of the time so they are discouraged in a consumer society, but "an eye" for for beauty, for balance, is an essential Satanic tool and must be applied for greatest magical effectiveness. It's not what's supposed to be pleasing -- it's what is. Aesthetics is a personal thing, reflective of one's own nature, but there are universally pleasing and harmonious configurations that should not be denied.
------------------------

Also, this isnt devil worshipping, as worshipping anything would be against satanistic teachings, and would just be an inverse of Christianity. Instead "satan" refers to anything you wish it to be. It seems that this religion is based on self knowledge and self awareness rather than "evil". In fact, a lot of makes sense. So whats so bad about these principles? Besides it going against your perfect Christian mindset? You can twist the principles of satanism for evil, but you can do that with any religion. It kinda represents freedom to me. Any thoughts?

And i swear to satan (haha) if i get a stupid post that says "because the bible says not to" or "god doesnt allow it" im gonna be really pissed. Plus it'll just prove satanism as a fallable religion even more. So come on you sheep, give it your best shot. :)

[tekkengod]

WOW! when i first saw the title i thought "oh crap, this is gonna be bad. but i like this idea, and this seems to have a solid tangible intelligent well founded ideal system, i might have to look into this.

[tekkengod]

where did you get this info from?

[jonmonk]

where did you get this info from?

I think they're the posting rules from bullshido.com

[tekkengod]

did you read the whole thing jonmonk? its really not a bad set of ideals at all. this isn't "evil" its smart.

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

I think they're the posting rules from bullshido.com
BWAAAHAHAHAAAAA!

I'd rather be a sheep than a goat, any day.

Hmmmm, this all seems to translate to "if you believe as I do, then you're a smart independent free-thinker; if you don't believe as I do, then you're just part of a herd, blindly following some leader. What's wrong with this picture, folks? :D

[tekkengod]

<EDIT>

here come the "unweilding" religious "fanatics" who are going to be "offended" by this because it contradicts their "beliefs"

[jonmonk]

did you read the whole thing jonmonk? its really not a bad set of ideals at all. this isn't "evil" its smart.

Yeah, I read it a couple of times. It looks like fun!

Can get philosophical about it too, it really celebrates 'humaness' doesn't it?

[tekkengod]

from what i can gather this is just promoting us to act naturally. enjoy ourselves, don't hurt kids, and do what we need to get what we want. yes there can be bad reprecussions to this, but same applies to christianity. i'm gonna look into this alittle more and if i find it has a few too many flaws for me or some of the other beliefs don't suit me i'll drop it, but for now this seems pretty solid.

[tekkengod]

oh and just so you know aikimac, { who i guarantee will be in here very soon} i'm not downing god, still got a few days to go. i'm just saying that this seems like a good idea.

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

here they come, the angry subborn mindless religious fanatics......this seems pretty solid as far as the belief system.
I'd watch it if I were you -- this is pretty close to a personal attack -- not allowed here at MAP. If you can't respect other peoples' beliefs, then don't expect them to respect yours.

And you can edit your previous post instead of double-posting.

[cloudz]

I didn't read it all yet, but will.

It seems to me that these ideas represent the opposite ends of the scale.
On one side you have hedonism, selfishness, indulgence etc. the other puritanical, altruism, abstinance etc.

Duality, ying and yang anyone?

As for me I'll continue to try and walk the middle path, and find my balance, although I regularly find myself in the arms of satan :D

...and yeah, i'd rather be a goat, than a sheep, they're cooler :cool:

:)

[Shadowdh]

Hmmmm, this all seems to translate to "if you believe as I do, then you're a smart independent free-thinker; if you don't believe as I do, then you're just part of a herd, blindly following some leader. What's wrong with this picture, folks? :D


that sounds exactly like any religion I have heard of... :)

personally I am with Geo here... I like to walk the path of balance... too much good is as bad as too much evil...

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

that sounds exactly like any religion I have heard of... :)

All the more reason for people not to set themselves up as superior to others because they believe <fill in the blank>. :)

[Shadowdh]

All the more reason for people not to set themselves up as superior to others because they believe <fill in the blank>. :)


absobubbly correct KT... :)

Now if only we could tell those who believe in <fill in the blank> that... ;)

[aikiMac]

from what i can gather this is just promoting us to act naturally. enjoy ourselves, don't hurt kids, and do what we need to get what we want. yes there can be bad reprecussions to this, but same applies to christianity. i'm gonna look into this alittle more and if i find it has a few too many flaws for me or some of the other beliefs don't suit me i'll drop it, but for now this seems pretty solid.
It looks like unbridled hedonism to me. Take statement VIII, for example: "Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!" Really now, some sins are sins because the actions cause suffering later. Celebrating present pleasure (statement VIII) at the cost of future suffering is good for corporations, sure, but very bad for people.

I'm wiser than that, thank you.

Statement XI is the opposite of civility. "When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him." Come on, this is anarchy, and hedonism at it's worse. Destroy him?! That's the the opposite of civility, the opposite of forgiveness, the opposite of love even. We can't do this and maintain a "civilized society."

[Jasonds23]

I agree and I think that for the most part keeping good, good, is good.

[Len]

I havent had enough time to read a lot of the Satanic bible, but the more I read it, the more I like it. Besides its obvious contradiction to Christianity, its actually very well worded.

Nine Satanic statements
I Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence!
-Is that evil? Since when is experiencing things bad?
II Satan represents vital existence, instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
-So 'he' represents the Self
III Satan represents undefiled wisdom, instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
-Self knowledge instead of following others...hmm
IV Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates!
-Kinda mean, but doesnt seem like a bad idea
V Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek!
-Dont necessarily agree with
VI Satan represents responsibility to the responsible, instead of concern for psychic vampires!
-Make sense
VII Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all fours, who, because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual development, has become the most vicious animal of all!
-Oh so very true, it seems satanism is quite "Natural"
VIII Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
-You only live once right?
IX Satan is the best friend the church has ever had, as he has kept it in business all these years!
-LOL, oh so true.

---------------------

Satanic Rules:
I Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.

II Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure that they want to hear them.

III When in another's lair, show him respect or else do not go there.

IV If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.

V Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.

VI Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the person and he cries out to be relieved.

VII Acknowledge the power of magic if you have used it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

VIII Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.

IX Do not harm little children.

X Do not kill non-human animals unless attacked or for your food.

XI When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.

Haha, I like that last one.
--------------
Satanic Sins:
For years, people have asked Church of Satan representatives, "Well, okay - your philosophy is based on indulgence of human instincts but do you have sins like any other religion?" Our answer has always been "No". But the time has come to amend that response. We have grown steadily over the past 21 years and find that it is appropriate to have some clear guidelines on, not only what we strive for,but also what we work to avoid - what we disapprove of. The difference is where other religions develop sins that people can't avoid, we consider a number of things "sinful" that people could avoid if they worked a little.

Stupidity -- The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid.

Pretentiousness -- Empty posturing can be most irritating and isn't applying the cardinal rules of Lesser Magic. On equal footing with stupidity for what keeps the money in circulation these days. Everyone's made to feel like a big shot, whether they can come up with the goods or not.

Solipsism -- Can be very dangerous for Satanists. Projecting your reactions, responses and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They won't. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of "Do unto others as they do unto you." It's work for most of us and requires constant vigilance lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point.

Self-deceit -- It's in the Nine Satanic Statements but deserves to be repeated here. Another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when it's fun, and with awareness. But then, it's not self-deceit!

Herd Conformity -- That's obvious from a Satanic stance. It's all right to conform toa person's wishes, if it ultimately benefits you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely instead of being enslaved by the whims of the many.

Lack of Perspective -- Again, this one can lead to a lot of pain for a Satanist. You must never lose sight of who and what you are, and what a threat you can be, by your very existence. We are making history right now, every day. Always keep the wider historical and social picture in mind. That is an important key to both Lesser and Greater Magic. See the patterns and fit things together as you want the pieces to fall into place. Do not be swayed by herd constraints -- know that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world.

Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies -- Be aware that this is one of the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something "new" and "different," when in reality it's something that was once widely accepted but is now presented in a new package. We are expected to rave about the genius of the "creator" and forget the original. This makes for a disposable society.

Counterproductive Pride -- That first word is important. Pride is great up to the point you begin to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The rule of Satanism is: if it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when you've painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, "I'm sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow," then do it.

Lack of Aesthetics -- This is the physical application of the Balance Factor. Aesthetics is important in Lesser Magic and should be cultivated. It is obvious that no one can collect any money off classical standards of beauty and form most of the time so they are discouraged in a consumer society, but "an eye" for for beauty, for balance, is an essential Satanic tool and must be applied for greatest magical effectiveness. It's not what's supposed to be pleasing -- it's what is. Aesthetics is a personal thing, reflective of one's own nature, but there are universally pleasing and harmonious configurations that should not be denied.
------------------------

Also, this isnt devil worshipping, as worshipping anything would be against satanistic teachings, and would just be an inverse of Christianity. Instead "satan" refers to anything you wish it to be. It seems that this religion is based on self knowledge and self awareness rather than "evil". In fact, a lot of makes sense. So whats so bad about these principles? Besides it going against your perfect Christian mindset? You can twist the principles of satanism for evil, but you can do that with any religion. It kinda represents freedom to me. Any thoughts?

And i swear to satan (haha) if i get a stupid post that says "because the bible says not to" or "god doesnt allow it" im gonna be really pissed. Plus it'll just prove satanism as a fallable religion even more. So come on you sheep, give it your best shot. :)
Notice there is nothing in there about love. It's all about you. Even beauty is a big thing with this religion. And you know what beauty is? Skin deep superficialty. It's nice to have but it shouldn't be a person's obsessive goal. Nothing about self-sacrifice, forgiveness, putting others before you, peace, helping the unfortunate, etc. Gee what a great religion. Yeah there are some common sense stuff in there that is logical but all that stuff is icying on the cake. It's the child abductor sitting with his car door open waving a piece of candy around for any unsuspecting, spiritually-unaware person. If you want to get involved with it, it's your choice but I am telling you it's not a good idea. There is a Satan and that's all sugar-coated common sense to get you hooked and interested for the more serious and deep stuff later on. How do I know all about Satanism? My dad was involved with that stuff for many years....the real stuff. He knows about the Satanic Bible and he said Anton Lavey puts all that stuff in there to make it look harmless. If it's called "Satanism", it's cause Satan is in it. If there is no Satan and all that stuff is just common sense stuff then you don't need it cause you can learn all that from a philosophy or morals/ethics book. But apparently it does a good job at hooking people as I now see. When I was young, I was witness to an actual exorcism and you have this 9 yr old girl throwing off 6 full grown adults. Ok about now you are thinking I am making this up or she was on some kind of strength-enhancing drugs right? (common answer). But that doesn't explain chairs and tables moving on their own where she had no physical contact with them. The windows were opening and closing by themselves too. Lights were flickering on and off. After hours of using the name of Christ and fighting with the evil spirit, it finally left. I was terrified but it proved something to me....there is a Satan and there is an invisible force of evil that manipulates and influences mankind. If there is Satan (a negative), there is also good (God). Satan's biggest weapon against man is to convince him that he doesn't exist. Therefore no defense is created against what a person considers to be an imagination so Satan can come and go as he pleases. My dad told me "Satanism is essentially about selfishness. It's all about you. Everything is "be as beautiful as possible, return eye for an eye, if someone hits you, you knock him down and make sure he doesn't get back up, it's about the indulgence of the flesh and using the natural feelings of man to step on others to get where they want to achieve their selfish goal. Althought ultimately Satanism is about sellling your soul to Satan. That's the final step when he has you in deep already. All of this is opposite to God where the religions of light talk about selflessness, giving of yourself, learning true happiness in the act of giving itself, spreading peace, showing love to all....even your enemies, etc. This stuff is harder to do than Satanism because it forces you to mature and see outside of the "box" of your own agenda. Anyways before I go on, I'll let the originator of the post reply and see what he has to say. I kind of think I know where this is going to go even though he hasn't responded yet :rolleyes:

[Banpen Fugyo]

It looks like unbridled hedonism to me. Take statement VIII, for example: "Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!" Really now, some sins are sins because the actions cause suffering later. Celebrating present pleasure (statement VIII) at the cost of future suffering is good for corporations, sure, but very bad for people.

I'm wiser than that, thank you.

Statement XI is the opposite of civility. "When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him." Come on, this is anarchy, and hedonism at it's worse. Destroy him?! That's the the opposite of civility, the opposite of forgiveness, the opposite of love even. We can't do this and maintain a "civilized society."

Your semi-right with those opinions. But if I could nit pick every thing in the Bible and not try to understand the entirety of it, i could as just as easily dimiss it for its "teachings". Pehaps, what statement XI is saying, is that instead of bothering people or "being civil" as you said, you could just mind your business? What is bothering anyways? Afterall, YOU are the one that decides what is right and wrong, civil and uncivil, bothersome and normal.

Hmmmm, this all seems to translate to "if you believe as I do, then you're a smart independent free-thinker; if you don't believe as I do, then you're just part of a herd, blindly following some leader. What's wrong with this picture, folks?

Hm, i have to disagree. In fact, its the exact opposite. Its giving some guidelines on how to maintain individuality and self awarness by giving GUIDE lines as to how far it should be taken. Since one could say "well, i want to be an individual, and i want to rape women for fun, and you cant tell me its wrong, because i believe its right" Perhaps, just like the bible, it makes a point that there IS a line of right and wrong. Rape is wrong, in any culture, it goes against human nature.

I think satanism isnt just evil "do what i want, when i want and cause chaos" but it is the yang to christianity's yin. Its the counter statement that lets everything remain UNchaotic. In fact, it even states that without satan, there would be no church (as we know it).

I still dont believe in one truth. But therefore I'm believing in Satanism. Its a conuundrum ( isnt that the right word? ) By stating that i want to be individualistic and not wanting to adhere to a system of ethics/religion, I am inadvertantly saying that I am a satanist.

Its a very humanistic religion.

To find out more goto:

www.satanism101.com
http://www.religioustolerance.org/satanism.htm
http://www.exposingsatanism.org/satanism_facts.htm

If you read some more about it, i suggest reading the letters that this guy Sean wrote, while serving time in jail. Its pretty sad, he believed himself to be a satanist, but he had never read the bible before. Which goes against what satanims believes in. Knowledge is power friends.

[Banpen Fugyo]

Len, your right. I was in no way saying i was gonna be a Satanist. Perhaps, I dont want to delve any further into the "higher" teachings of satanism, but am just interested in what it has to say? You are speaking like a true christian i have to say. Not only is satan "evil" but you also believed someone was possessed by a demon. K... well it could be, but i personally dont know, and sorry, i WONT take your word for it. All this thread is about is food for thought. Thinking outside of the normal box and seeing what other things have to offer.

By the way, why does it have to include love, forgivness?

[tekkengod]

It's all about you. Even beauty is a big thing with this religion. And you know what beauty is? Skin deep superficialty. It's nice to have but it shouldn't be a person's obsessive goal. Nothing about self-sacrifice, forgiveness, putting others before you, peace, helping the unfortunate, etc. Gee what a great religion.

beauty is a great thing to have, but as all else, you can easily lose it.

theres nothing about that stuff in there because this isn't christianity. none of that is nessecarry, who said all religion instills those traits. its about helping, you, yourself and I. i'm all for lending a helping hand and kindness when it benifits you, or even out of the goodness of your heart. but at the end of the day, YOU are what matters!!! not the people you "did or didn't help" and now a days, some people will say that we "Helped" Teri Schiavo, some will say that we didn't. point being, theres nothing wrong with watching out for your self.

[Bluce Ree]

Wow, after reading that post I realised that I am pretty much a Satanist anyway. :mad: :yeleyes:

Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of "Do unto others as they do unto you."

I'd say the love and forgiveness in Satanism kinda fits with this statement.

[Mark_Campbell]

Siphus a noticable quantity of the satanic points are very similar to 19th century thinkers such as Friedrich Nietzsche, he believed that the robust nature of humanity should be celebrated. He thought that when man limited himself with liberal ideals or religious dogma such as self sacrifice and forgiveness, he took away a part of what he really was. For man to really excel, he thought man should take pleasure from his passion, aggressiveness and his superiority to others. strong people should take strong actions and not conform to wishy washy opinions. Now just in that there are a good few similarites between Nietzsche`s and certain others thinking, and some of (and i do mean some, not all) of the satanic rules. Not conforming, a will to exercise control over others. Thing is these guys thinking became the basis (and i mean basis, not all of, please take generally) of fascist thinking.

the point im trying to make is this not simply satan vs jesus. This crosses into others fields, ideologies, the thing many regard as the defining quality of what they represent, have very important elements of the question of wether we should struggle against human nature (carnal pleasure, selfishness etc) or should we embrace it.

personally i reckon you cant seperate the two so easily, self sacrifice i would argue is human nature. Satanism is not a way to live your life, it is an artificial boundary made by man on behaviour and belief.

sorry if this is a tad half assed but i have to go to training and i`ll be happy to discuss this stuff, but dont constantly bring up what ive said in quotes, ive not had a chance to research properly of read what ive written

ta

[Jasonds23]

When you get away with the right thing, it's good. When people try to stop you from the right, it's wrong. I believe in Christ. Good is Good, bad is bad.

People who know something, know something. Though no one knows, everything, does that mean there is nothing? If there is no God in Heaven, why are there atheists on earth? And if there is no saviour named Jesus, how could there be a destroyer of his followers? :o

The bible says "the devil is the accuser of the bretheren", so if I judge anyone because they choose evil, then I am evil too....

However, when people stand by and let evil corrupt and destroy what is rightly saved by Jesus, how then, are they doing good? This our defenition of being "civil", "civility", and "cvilization". There is no excuse for evil, even though thats all it has.....thats why people try to steer others off of a course that can lead to total enhialation of..."civilians"

[Len]

Len, your right. I was in no way saying i was gonna be a Satanist. Perhaps, I dont want to delve any further into the "higher" teachings of satanism, but am just interested in what it has to say? You are speaking like a true christian i have to say. Not only is satan "evil" but you also believed someone was possessed by a demon. K... well it could be, but i personally dont know, and sorry, i WONT take your word for it. All this thread is about is food for thought. Thinking outside of the normal box and seeing what other things have to offer.

By the way, why does it have to include love, forgivness?Because if you want to advance as a being and evolve closer to the truth, those are some of the most simplest, yet most advanced concepts to adhere to and embrace. The lower levels of consciousness are concerned with temporary superficialities. Yeah I know I am sounding like a true Christian when I said all that. The funny thing is half of that stuff was said to me by my dad who was following Satan at the time LOL. His best friend was a true Satanist since he was 13 years old. Like I said before, and I'll say again....for those of you who don't think Satan is involved, why is it called Satanism then? If it's just a common sense philosophy in which you are the center of importance, why not call it something that better illustrates that? It's like calling something Chrisitianity when there is no "Christ". Being nice to other people are attributes that abound plentifully in many different religions. It doesn't have to be Chrisitianity.

As far as you not believing someone was possessed by a demon, it's your choice. But I gave the details so if I am not telling the truth, then I am lying. If I am lying I would need a reason to lie. So what would be the reason? This board is anynamous. That means I don't get any kind of personal glory or recognition from it. And further more, if exorcisms are not real, there wouldn't be exorcists. The demand for a practitioner of anything can only be met if there is a situation that calls for it.

[b33p]

There has been satanic influences throughout the ages...Even at the start of mankind, Eve was ignorant and oblivious to the devils actions, when she was eating the apple she meant it in the best intentions, 'to become wise'
Possession and demon influence can come across anyone, and demons target christians especially to shake their faith and cast them off into another direction.
Tell me why the devil would be concerned about you, why would he care about you or your feelings...following the devils teaching is only going to grant you a place in hell.
The devil can decieve you in many ways, even showing himself as a Holy figure to change peoples faiths and beliefs.

[Banpen Fugyo]

Jason, you keep talking like Satan is evil. He isn't evil, he is just opposing Christ/God. Right? It seems like a difference of opinion at the very least between the two. Also, Satan doesnt necessarily mean the devil, like i stated before, satanist dont believe in worshipping a deity, therefore, it would go against their beliefs to worship satan.

As far as you not believing someone was possessed by a demon, it's your choice. But I gave the details so if I am not telling the truth, then I am lying. If I am lying I would need a reason to lie. So what would be the reason? This board is anynamous. That means I don't get any kind of personal glory or recognition from it. And further more, if exorcisms are not real, there wouldn't be exorcists. The demand for a practitioner of anything can only be met if there is a situation that calls for it.

Why do psychics exist? Ghost hunters? Stories of dragons? Zeus, Posiden? Warlocks, witches, Lord of the Ring followers? Why are there Jedi? Because nobody knows, so trying to tell me your truth is meaningless. All your telling me is YOUR interpretation of the truth. If this possession ever occurred. Your whole paragraph means nothing in a debate.

------------
You guys are saying all the same crap. Satan is evil, Jesus is right. Prove it. I told you i didnt want some bible passages and religious teaching crap to infest this thread. This is purely a philosophical debate about ideas, not some religious mission to try and preach the word of God. Get off Jesus's nuts and try using an intelligent argument rather than mindless repeating of what you were told as a kid.

[iTengu!]

http://www.exposingsatanism.org/sean_sellers_letter.htm


"It’s so much easier to create our own gods; gods that are fully knowable. Those are the gods of atheism, occultism, religion and sometimes even Christianity. Then of course there are those prejudices that we demand of our gods. Women who take offense at a "male" God and so create for themselves a female or neuter god. There we have all the racial gods, the black gods, white gods, and cultural gods, the Spanish gods, African gods, Indian gods, etc. All of them called GOD. And yet none of them are truly Him. Some may be tiny glimpses of Him. Maybe His big toe or little finger, but nothing more. Others are not even that. They’re only delusions from our prejudices.
Getting past all that to see the true GOD, the real creator of the universe took me years. Understanding why the Bible refers to Him as it does is a good place to start. We can’t relate to the Creator as He is. He’s too big. How can an ant relate to a person? How can a grain of sand relate to a desktop computer? The Bible calls God "Father" not because He’s male, but because of the relationship of a father to a child. God is as much female as He is male, and neither. (The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, appearing in the very first chapter of Genesis is female.) To get even close to defining God as He fully is we have to take every role a person plays in our society and add that to God’s title: Father, Mother, friend, king, lord, boss, brother, sister, judge, lawyer, jury, teacher, executioner, savior, etc-etc."

Additional reading:

http://www.seansellers.com

[Jasonds23]

Please consider the following scenarios.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
No, the sun is green 'i swear', all you have to do, is put on
these green glasses, and then you will see....right, now what
did I tell you?! The sun is green...
----------------------------------------------------------------------

or

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"If any man is worthy of me, let him take up his cross and follow me"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Which one is Jesus? :confused:
When you speak about Jesus, you can't speak for yourself,
unless you are saying what you believe. Anything else, to me,
is compromise.

[b33p]

"You guys are saying all the same crap. Satan is evil, Jesus is right. Prove it. I told you i didnt want some bible passages and religious teaching crap to infest this thread. This is purely a philosophical debate about ideas, not some religious mission to try and preach the word of God. Get off Jesus's nuts and try using an intelligent argument rather than mindless repeating of what you were told as a kid."


When addressing a topic like this, speak with words that do not offend others so easily...and dont talk of religious verses as 'crap', and mocking christians saying they are on jesus 'nuts'... thats a personal attack... you are attacking the beliefs of people on here and saying their beliefs to be some kind of fairy tale that was told to them by their parents...I thought you said this was a discussion, if so then keep those idiotic comments to yourself.
Let the other members point out their views. And really what do you expect to recieve posting a topic like this.

[aikiMac]

Jason, you keep talking like Satan is evil. He isn't evil, he is just opposing Christ/God. Right? It seems like a difference of opinion at the very least between the two.
To oppose God is evil. Difference of opinion? :confused: As if there is no such thing as "right" and "good" ! Not!


You guys are saying all the same crap. Satan is evil, Jesus is right. Prove it. I told you i didnt want some bible passages and religious teaching crap to infest this thread. This is purely a philosophical debate about ideas, not some religious mission to try and preach the word of God. Get off Jesus's nuts and try using an intelligent argument rather than mindless repeating of what you were told as a kid.
Huh? How does one speak of Jesus without recourse to the records of Jesus? Who's being "mindless" here -- the one who would refer to the source documents of a historical figure, or the one who would speak of that figure without referring to the source documents? And since when is the Bible a "mindless" book, eh?

To say that the Bible does not belong in a talk about Jesus (and you brought up Jesus) is not intelligent. It's absurd -- or mindless, maybe.

[TheSanSooStorm]

WHy does it seem like every "different look at things" statements are just excuses to bash on christianity? Not so much in this forum, in others. Its like people kinda go around looking for forums to attack people for there beliefes. The second someone says anything at all outside of what you`d expect its instantly "ooooh awww he`s smart." Like if I wrote a book about why killing people in code blood is a sweet, gentle thing to do, people would buy it. Seems to be the same with the Satanic bible, Here I`m ganna list some common sense philosophical statements in my own words, and make it seem fluffy instead of sharp, because then people will buy it. Mabye thats kinda a personal attack? Well then let it be what it is.

It tries to impress you by saying the oppisite of what common thought is. "It isnt evil." But once you really look at 1) The origins of where it came from. 2) There foundamental principles, and not just the specific wording. and 3) What they do in society, not what they claim to do. You start to notice its all connected.

[b33p]

This is amusing, the stupidity of some people is hilarious

[JayKayD]

I think Anton La Vey has basically just put a fluffy "oh i quite like the sound of that" image to Satanism. Did Satan/whoever write those rules? no, some social outcast from America did.

[tekkengod]

To oppose God is evil.

NO, it isn't. simply becasue it goes against what you believe its evil!?!?! thats the most ludicris argument i've ever heard.

[tekkengod]

Did Satan/whoever write those rules? no, some social outcast from America did.

who the hell do you think you are? when you start talking about the US, its crossed a line, watch your self in statements about other countries.

who said the alleged writer of this was a social outcast? you did, the satanists at my school atleast have a small group, the religious fanatics have no one because the ones that are outcasts are the ones who were force feeding it down the other kids throats and they usually get picked on and beaten-up by the goths and atheists, granted i stick up for a few of em on ocassion, i'm not about to lose friends over the kids.

[JayKayD]

I disagree with that. Whether you believe in God or not, he does represent 'good'. Modern morality and laws came from religion, i.e. 'do not steal/kill' and so forth. Therefore whether you like it or not if you are a good person you are following God's will.

Therefore to be the opposite to God is to be the opposite to good. Whether you believe in God is irrelevent, because the guidelines to being good were laid down by religion.

Thats really quite hard to explain. By the way i am Atheist.

[JayKayD]

who the hell do you think you are? when you start talking about the US, its crossed a line, watch your self in statements about other countries.

who said the alleged writer of this was a social outcast? you did, the satanists at my school atleast have a small group, the religious fanatics have no one because the ones that are outcasts are the ones who were force feeding it down the other kids throats and they usually get picked on and beaten-up by the goths and atheists, granted i stick up for a few of em on ocassion, i'm not about to lose friends over the kids.

Easy man calm down. How in any way did i insult America. If he was from France i would have said "some social outcast from France". Christ just because i put America in a sentence doesn't mean i was insulting it.

Anton LaVey is not the 'alleged' writer, he did write it. I don't know why your talking about religious fanaticism i didn't mention that. You probabley just assumed i was one.

[tekkengod]

Why are there Jedi?

Get off Jesus's nuts and try using an intelligent argument rather than mindless repeating of what you were told as a kid.

whats left of them is on either Korriban, training, and bettering themselves by continually improving and doing whats nessecarry to succeed without worrying about the "teachings" {Sith}

or on Datooine trying to get in everyone elses business and shoving the force and the "teachings" down everyones throats. {Jedi} :D


i fully agree with that statement, 99.9% of the religious fanatics are that way due to a good luck streak {which they believe is a "blessing" or they where force fed it as a kid}

[tekkengod]

Easy man calm down. How in any way did i insult America. If he was from France i would have said "some social outcast from France". Christ just because i put America in a sentence doesn't mean i was insulting it.

i didn't say you were insulting america, i was just saying, "watch it, don't take that too far" and seeing as it says you are from the UK {and we aren't too popular over there right now} i could see that going down a dark road fast. I love my country.

good to know you are an atheist, and still supporting this stuff.....hmmm....you could stay neutral, that way when you die, if we happen to be wrong. either way you'll get in :D j/k

[aikiMac]

NO, it isn't. simply becasue it goes against what you believe its evil!?!?! thats the most ludicris argument i've ever heard.
No, I'm not the standard. God is good because (1) Easter proves him so, and (2) what Jay said.

Your disbelief of God does not in any way or degree make God not good, or make Satan not evil. They are what they are without regard to your beliefs -- and without regard to my beliefs either, for that matter.

[tekkengod]

according to you.

you can make either one what you want it to be.

[Goju]

who said the alleged writer of this was a social outcast? you did, the satanists at my school atleast have a small group, the religious fanatics have no one because the ones that are outcasts are the ones who were force feeding it down the other kids throats and they usually get picked on and beaten-up by the goths and atheists, granted i stick up for a few of em on ocassion, i'm not about to lose friends over the kids.

Yeah right, I'm staying out of this one, because I don't know much about either side. However, I can't believe that kids were ever beaten up for being overly religious, there's no way to justify that. "We kicked his ass because he's religious" give me a break. Especially by goths and atheists, those kids always get their asses kicked and rarely have friends. (sorry for the generalization, it's just my experience). Everyone I have ever known who is greatly interested in christianity or jewish religion, has been a very kind person. It's just the way devoted religious people are! Even if some may get a little annoying, only a jackass would fight someone like that.

[tekkengod]

everyone gets beatup, but at my school the select few that get whailed on most are 2 highly religious kids and i certainly do not condone it. i wasn't saying that ALL the religious kids get beat on like its a gang war or anything like that correct, most of the people who would do something like that solely overa particular belief are usually idiots to begin with.

[Goju]

everyone gets beatup


not me :cool:

[Radok]

If lies are mixed with truth, they become much easier to believe. Satanism is nothing but placing yourself on the highest pedastal. It's just Mindless Self Indulgence. :p It just replaces God with yourself, which is what today's society is about. You are following society, you are just along for the ride.

[MDN]

How can you say you are not a sheep and in the same post list all the decree's that make you a Satanist?

Seems a little ironic.

Maybe I should join you and go around killing people, as that would not break any of the rules that you listed.

[Nevada_MO_Guy]

where did you get this info from?
http://www.satanism101.com/ www.satanism101.com

Interesting topic. It is difficult to view with an open mind due to my upbringing.

Just the wording...satanism or devil...sort of kick the brain into a defensive mode.

It will be interesting to see where this goes.

[Banpen Fugyo]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

I KNEW i should have put this in the philosophy forum. This was the biggest waste of bandwidth of all time. The only person that has contributed ANYTHING besides a biased opinion and talks of how god is better than satan is Mark Campell. The rest of you are arguing about nothing. How about this? Every time you see the word Satan, change it to Happy. So now its Happist. Happist sins. Happy represents indulgence.

Stop talking about God, stop talking about satan in the way YOU view him. This is supposed to be a conversation about ethics, a conversation about philosophy, a conversation of ideals. I dont want to hear about exorcisms, the power of jesus, and how satan is blinding me.

[AZeitung]

not me :cool:

Or me :cool:

[Banpen Fugyo]

How can you say you are not a sheep and in the same post list all the decree's that make you a Satanist?

Seems a little ironic.

Maybe I should join you and go around killing people, as that would not break any of the rules that you listed.

Awesome, I said I was a satanist, when was this?

Killing people huh?
"The Church of Satan harshly frowns upon the commission of any illegal act. If you choose to do so, you do it of your own volition and without the approval and consent of the Church of Satan. That is free will and it has consequences. We have stated since the inception that Satanism has nothing to do with animal or human sacrifice (the top of page 89 of The Satanic Bible states this in black and white, quite clearly)."

See. This is what satanism is talking about. The talk of the ignorant. You havent read the Satanic bible have you? No. In fact, i bet most of you have only read the bible once. Perhaps its the only religious/philosophical book you've ever read. Kant, Plato, Dewie... know them? Do you know ALL the philosophical teachings? Deontology? Utilitarianism? Naturalism? Humanism? Cultural Realism? I doubt it. I dont, and I live on this stuff. This is what Im talking about. The ethical teachings of satansim. If you dont know anything about it, anything about philosophy, or anything about ethics, and have only read "the good book" i dont want your opinion, its worthless to me.

As for "Satan" being a entity... Satanist dont believe in satan. In the christian sense of the word. Here:

"In addition to what is stated before considering how we contextualize Satan, this is my take on this fairly common question:

1) "Hail Satan!" (the exclamation point is optional, though preferred) is often another way of saying "Hail Me!" Since we Satanists embody the qualities of the archetype of Satan, it stands to reason that the phrase is both apropos and analogous. You very well could say "Hail Me!" instead, but keep in mind this...

2) "Hail Satan!" is also a salute to our achievements (both collective and, more importantly, individual), ethics, and heritage. It is a statement of pride in defiance of a polyglot, egalitarian, and ignorant way of life represented by the nauseating Christ ethos and its followers. If we have signed any pact with Satan, it is this. "

[Small Dog]

Awesome, I said I was a satanist, when was this?

Killing people huh?
"The Church of Satan harshly frowns upon the commission of any illegal act. If you choose to do so, you do it of your own volition and without the approval and consent of the Church of Satan. That is free will and it has consequences. We have stated since the inception that Satanism has nothing to do with animal or human sacrifice (the top of page 89 of The Satanic Bible states this in black and white, quite clearly)."

See. This is what satanism is talking about. The talk of the ignorant. You havent read the Satanic bible have you? No. In fact, i bet most of you have only read the bible once. Perhaps its the only religious/philosophical book you've ever read. Kant, Plato, Dewie... know them? Do you know ALL the philosophical teachings? Deontology? Utilitarianism? Naturalism? Humanism? Cultural Realism? I doubt it. I dont, and I live on this stuff. This is what Im talking about. The ethical teachings of satansim. If you dont know anything about it, anything about philosophy, or anything about ethics, and have only read "the good book" i dont want your opinion, its worthless to me.

*sniff sniff* beautiful *sniff sniff*
ignorance is the easy way out, therefore more people walk that way, they dont question everything, they dont test their faith, they dont read, they dont think, they just do, they just follow the path, maybe that has something to do with being a sheep? (just speculation)

if you test your faith in god, and he fails, what does that tell you about god?
maybe he doesnt like you? lol no, maybe christianity isnt for you/maybe hte views dont stick to you that well, so move on

it doesnt mean you should scream god is dead to people and smear blood on the bible while doing a goat in places it shouldnt be 'engaged' yar?

amen to siphus pointing out that ignorant points from unread people(s) are void

As for "Satan" being a entity... Satanist dont believe in satan. In the christian sense of the word. Here:

"In addition to what is stated before considering how we contextualize Satan, this is my take on this fairly common question:

1) "Hail Satan!" (the exclamation point is optional, though preferred) is often another way of saying "Hail Me!" Since we Satanists embody the qualities of the archetype of Satan, it stands to reason that the phrase is both apropos and analogous. You very well could say "Hail Me!" instead, but keep in mind this...

2) "Hail Satan!" is also a salute to our achievements (both collective and, more importantly, individual), ethics, and heritage. It is a statement of pride in defiance of a polyglot, egalitarian, and ignorant way of life represented by the nauseating Christ ethos and its followers. If we have signed any pact with Satan, it is this. "

im glad you posted this, because i think its silly how people think that satan wrote the satanic bible lol, i mean if it was the word of satan why would it be wrote by men? modified over the years by men? thats foolish to believe that satan wrote the satanic bible if its even been modified by one major church of satanism over time.... :eek: (sounds like someone we know....hmmmmm what religion could it beeeeee)

but yea, read about it and think about it and understand its claims before firing back :woo:


now i just want to say that some of the stuff about destroying those that come into your home and push their stuff on you...think about that one longer than 2 seconds and for an excuse to hate with a simple word like destroy

you preach about how the bible could be a metaphor or THE word of god, well in both cases i thin its a valid claim

a.) a man comes IN to my home, pushes his views, he wont leave, i tell him to, he wont, i kick his rear, and throw him out

b.) a man comes IN to my home, pushes his views, he wont leave, i tell him to, he wont, i chew him out, and he leaves

they're pretty much the same thing, i mean notice how destroy=/ (thats does not equal if youre wondering)KILL KILL KILL EM ALL!!! JEW SLAUGHTER!!! BLOOD RARRGHH!!!

destroy could be destroying your opponent like a martial artist, considering satanists are STRONGLY AGAINST KILLING as it was posted

while on the other hand a christian could go out there swinging the knife cuz theyre on a holy crusade against satan, and its ok b/c its a nice ignorant view the public holds


but yea, just because you enjoy life doesnt make you a hedonist, look at how kids are these days, the bang/drink/smoke at earlier age, just llike the trend of moral decay dictates, yet in biblical times it was teh same way b/c of lower life expectancies, yet it wasnt wrong then?

ok im done

[jonmonk]

As far as I can tell, and it's only from what's posted here, the view of the satanists seems to be something along the lines of, "you're a human being, get over yourself and go live like one". This involves living in some kind of civilisation so rules apply but we're essentially tribal by nature so that's built into us genetically anyway.

There certainly doesn't appear to be anything supernatural about that, in fact, quite the opposite. For me that kinda begs the question of their motives for calling it 'Satanism' as opposed to say err 'Naturism'... oh hang on, err 'Humanism'... no that's been done too... 'Goatism'? :)

The only thing is, it seems to me to be glossing over the fact that it's also part of human nature to try to reach beyond the fact that they exists and attempt to figure out why they exist.

[b33p]

"stop talking about satan in the way YOU view him"
The way we view him? the fact stays that satan is of evil background and is not someone who looks out for humans or wants them to be happy...cant you see the satanic bible is based to make you codemn yourself into the devils grasp, the devil can appear of good nature to you if he wants something in reward.
The devil works by deception, the devil can decieve people with words of wisdom and words even of holy nature..just by following these words that may seem righteous, you open yourself to attacks of possession.

"As for "Satan" being a entity... Satanist dont believe in satan."
really? then why do satanists draw pentagrams and bathe in animals blood, and slaughter people in the name of the devil?

[cloudz]

Two sides of the same coin.
Forget the labels, think about the essence.
It (life) is only fair becuase it is unfair.
You cannot have one without the other.
It is all part of the whole.

The problem comes due to the paradox that exists in duality of nature.

survival and fullfilling the self vs nurture, love etc. Both are natural, valid and essential. Although they do a pretty damn good job of confusing the hell out of us.

Organised government and religion do not trust us to make up our own mind, and find our own path, they try to heard us into one mode of thinking or another. It is expedient. Prove them wrong!

IMHO it is unhealthy to attach too much to one or other. You will not find it, if you look for black or white, it is all shades of grey.

Keep it simple people!
cleverness is its own trap!

[Albert]

Yah.. is that real? Because i didnt think there was such thing as a satanic bible.. But anyways, it sounds ALOT better than any other stupid ass religion ive ever heard of.

[FATSAN]

As already mentioned, the Satanic Bible and the church of satan are both the work of Anton LeVey. I get the impression that his satan though based on the idea of the satan described by christianity is not the same thing. The church of satan probably reflects more anton's views of life projected onto a romanticised image of the satan described in the bible. The problem here on this thread seems to be that although everyone is using the same terms, ie satan, god, devil, good and bad; each one of us has different ideas as to what these terms mean.

[tekkengod]

Interesting topic. It is difficult to view with an open mind due to my upbringing.

that the problem with 90% of the people on this thread, unfortunately. but atleast you admit it as opposed to arguing with null facts.

[tekkengod]

"stop talking about satan in the way YOU view him"
The way we view him? the fact stays that satan is of evil background and is not someone who looks out for humans or wants them to be happy...cant you see the satanic bible is based to make you codemn yourself into the devils grasp, the devil can appear of good nature to you if he wants something in reward.

GODDAMNIT!!! will you people STOP spewing this kind of filth. satan is of evil background? why? god is good and loves you all? why? who says the satanic bible is to lure you into somebodys "grasp" if he appears good in nature, he does for me, i do for him. how can that be a bad thing? i scratch your back, you scratch mine. same idea.

[tekkengod]

but yea, just because you enjoy life doesnt make you a hedonist, look at how kids are these days, the bang/drink/smoke at earlier age, just llike the trend of moral decay dictates, yet in biblical times it was teh same way b/c of lower life expectancies, yet it wasnt wrong then?

exactly, but according to most religions, it does. and we are all going to hell for getting laid and enjoying it.

We are all going to hell for not devoting 4 hours of MY sleep time to church.

we've all told lies.
we've all had sex.
we've all done some "Sin" in some way/shape/form/status. and ENJOYED IT!

if you can get away with Gluttony and still look good, FINE, do it.
if premarital sex is wrong, i don't want to be right. if having pride in yourself is wrong, then......someone made a typo.

[b33p]

"GODDAMNIT!!! will you people STOP spewing this kind of filth"
tut tut..gods words are filth? I think not

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

If you all want to discuss this in a civil manner, fine. But I am getting the lock ready for this thread if I see any more flaming and name-calling in it.

[aikiMac]

satan is of evil background? why? god is good and loves you all? why?
You've already been given the answers, but your mind was and still is closed. How about you stop asking questions that have been answered for you, eh?

[b33p]

Really, what did you expect to get from posting a thread like this...and then using that kind of attitude towards people of religious and even non religious background who have brought god into this discussion...if we are discussing something devil related and the satanic bible is, then God does have a part in this discussion

[tekkengod]

You've already been given the answers, but your mind was and still is closed. How about you stop asking questions that have been answered for you, eh?

no, i don't recall anyone answering those questions, feel free to do so.

[jonmonk]

You've already been given the answers, but your mind was and still is closed. How about you stop asking questions that have been answered for you, eh?

Well clearly he has a problem with your answers aikiMac.

::sigh:: look KT, you may as well lock the thread if you want because it's turning from an interesting debate into the same old thread we've seen a million times before.

[Bellator Manus]

Can't even devote 4 out of 148 hours in the week? How sad. Tekkengod, you are one hostile person. If someone post a something warning others of their own religion, it is not to you and you have no business replying.

"angry subborn mindless religious fanatics" indeed. To me, this is the pot calling the kettle black where the kettle is often times much cleaner that the pot anyways.

The REAL problem with Satanism, or me-ism as I will now hereby refer to it is that me-ism leaves no room for anyoneelse-ism. Let me refer to you rules and point out what I mean.

I Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence!
II Satan represents vital existence, instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
III Satan represents undefiled wisdom, instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
IV Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates!
V Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek!
VI Satan represents responsibility to the responsible, instead of concern for psychic vampires!
VII Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all fours, who, because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual development, has become the most vicious animal of all!
VIII Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
IX Satan is the best friend the church has ever had, as he has kept it in business all these years!
1. following this rule will leave a society full of fatherless children, divorce, abandon children, and STD epidemics. Even the best modern birth control is not 100% protection. Don't even get started on STDs, which protection % go far down.

2. Translation: Ignore the spiritual so you have no god to answer to, which makes you your own god.

3. Translation: Call all religion (except mine) self-deceit. That way, you don't have to listen to what others say about the spiritual, you just tell them that they are lying to themselves, but you aren't. Of coarse, you have no way of knowing if you are the one really deceiving yourself, except that I told you.

4. This is the perfect advise to make enemies and start fights, be nice to only those that you like.

5. A great follower to 4, be mean to them, and then hit them if they cross you. (just imagine to a minute if everyone followed the above to rules. Try thinking of rush hour traffic)

6. I don't know what religion, except liberalism, that ever says a person is not responsible for their actions. Kinda makes the 2nd part not make much sense.

7. So people are evil and lower than animals. This sounds like justification for genocide at worst and paranoia at best.

8. Immediate gratification with the cost to others or to yourself later. I imagine that this was written as a reply to Christian sins, all of which are in place, except arguably the worship God ones, to protect yourself. I'll take the last 5 of the Ten Commandments:
Do not murder. I don't need to elaborate what this would cause.
Do not comment adultery. See my response to the first satanic rule
Do not steal. If everyone stole what ever they wanted, no one would buy anything and the economy would collapse
Do not lie. Now, everyone can trust you. No need to background check your facts or take measures if you don't come through with your promise.
Do not covet Nothing good ever came from wanting something that it was wrong for you to have. You either agonize over not having it or do something you will regret.

9. Inserting the word selves for Satan, I don't really see anything special about this sentence.

I just realized I was looking at the statements as rules. I guess there is no deference other than semantics, so just insert statement for rule.


Now for their rules.
1-3 sound fine.
4 is a female dog. How do you know he wasn't annoying you by accident? And it seems a little crime to treat with no mercy
5 is OK but 6 seems like its playing tricks. "Hey, that's my Xbox!" "It's a burden for you, you have school to do."
7: Nothing is spiritual except magic? What about the magical psychic vampires?
8: Yeah like cruelty when you annoy someone.
9 is OK
10: also add population control for animals.
11: Why not just never bother anyone? And destroying them because they bother you seems too much for such a small crime.

Sins:
Stupidity: Reading the paragraph, it seems stupidity is the wrong word to use. Insert a gullibility or blind following. Of coarse, it is bad to follow and be a sheep . . . except when it some to our religion

Pretentiousness: Nothing good about this, but this religion seems built around oneself which would put yourself on a higher pedestal than anyone else which would be pretentiousness.

Solipsism: I find this one to be hilarious for two reasons. One: "It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them." Yeah, like destroying them for bothering you. Lots of courtesy there. Two, it is weird that it talks about projecting you into their position, yet to treat someone cruelly and without mercy for annoying you is to judge them, and judging requires that you project what you have seen and heard in order to deemed them worthy of punishment or innocent.

Self-deceit: What the paragraph seems to be saying is to not be a sheep again. Which I have already talked about. But it also mentions that you are not suppose to worship something unless you have reason to, not just because someone else has told you. Which I agree with.

Herd Conformity: Is this the 4th time its been mentioned?

Lack of Perspective: I want to know why a Satanist should care about history if he destroys those who bother him and take such obvious paths to self-destruction. Maybe they aren't obvious and I have just been blessed that I can see them.

Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies: Know your history is good advice.

Counterproductive Pride: That's true, but we could argue all day on what counter productivity is. I, myself, would go as far as to say that just about all pride is bad.

Lack of Aesthetics: looks like they really took in the philosophy mumbo jumbo. Balance what so it is beautiful? And why isn't beauty pleasing? Isn't that what beauty is suppose to do? It sounds as if the balance you achieve is really going for the instant gratification and doing that well.

That's my $2. (because 2 cents just didn't seem enough).


Edit: please don't close it. I'll be good. :Angel:

[MDN]

It's contradicting itself in that it endorses that you believe that you are more suppior(sp?), and then goes on to say that it doesn't endorse Counter-productive pride.

What is a more counter-pride than believing your supior to everyone? Believing that you are better than everyone, only leads to the cleverly named Suppiority Complex, not enlightenment.

It is delusional to think that anyone is suppior to anyone. Stephen Hawking has an iq of 210. I have the ability to walk. Who is more suppior?


Why do anything if you know you are suppior to everyone? Ie I wouldn't have to take martial arts if I believed I was unbeatable. I wouldn't have to learn math because I already know that I am better at it than anyone.

Ok maybe killing people was a bad example. But how can it not be contradicting when it says I should indulge in my desires if they aren't against the law? What if killing were legal? Then a satanist have to think that it's ok to kill people. Or are you saying that it's immoral to kill a person in the USA, but it's ok to kill people in lawless states/territories/countries? How about killing people in defense? That is perfectly legal in someplaces so it must be ok in someplaces.

Am I supposed to only indulge in the desires that other people tell me I can indulge in? No, that's something a sheep would do.

Also, I'd like to note that your constant belittling of people who believe different than you should be under review. That is just my opinion.

[tekkengod]

i don't want to get the thread locked, lets get back on topic then.

[holyheadjch]

I wonder...if this religion was called something else would the christians be quite as offended - I doubt it, the religion does not preach evil, it does not encourage its members to be 'evil' (unless you consider everything other than that condoned in the bible to be evil), in fact the fundamental message that I can see is 'life is short, enjoy it because you only get one shot' personally I see nothing wrong with it, its just a different way of living your life.

[tekkengod]

Can't even devote 4 out of 148 hours in the week? How sad. Tekkengod, you are one hostile person. If someone post a something warning others of their own religion, it is not to you and you have no business replying.

"angry subborn mindless religious fanatics" indeed. To me, this is the pot calling the kettle black where the kettle is often times much cleaner that the pot anyways.

i suppose 4 out of 148 isn't much but the timing of it isn't good, the on base chapel has a wendsday service i went to a few times. it was rather dull, if there was a really lively and interesting one near by, i'd probably go to it.

how am i being hostile?
the remark "angry stubborn mindless religious fanatics" was about the ones who would take this way too far {and at this point i may be guilty of that.}
but i invisioned people coming in here angry because it was directly opposite to christianity. being stubborn and simply spewing out "satan is evil god is good, just because" mindless because they would just write out scripture without thought. and being fanatical about the whole ordeal.

but as i said, i don't want to get the thread locked. BACK ON TOPIC.

[tekkengod]

I see nothing wrong with it, its just a different way of living your life.

nor do i. thats the point of life, to ENJOY IT!!!

[jonmonk]

I wonder...if this religion was called something else would the christians be quite as offended - I doubt it, the religion does not preach evil, it does not encourage its members to be 'evil' (unless you consider everything other than that condoned in the bible to be evil), in fact the fundamental message that I can see is 'life is short, enjoy it because you only get one shot' personally I see nothing wrong with it, its just a different way of living your life.

That's kinda what I thought.

MDN, I was re-reading the original post but got the impression that they weren't claiming to be superior, in fact, rather the opposite. If they feel that 'being stupid' for example is a sin then that doesn't just apply to other satanists but also to themselves. I was wondering which bit of the post you'd picked up on.

[Bellator Manus]

I wonder...if this religion was called something else would the christians be quite as offended - I doubt it, the religion does not preach evil, it does not encourage its members to be 'evil' (unless you consider everything other than that condoned in the bible to be evil), in fact the fundamental message that I can see is 'life is short, enjoy it because you only get one shot' personally I see nothing wrong with it, its just a different way of living your life.Not really. I don't think of it as Satanism. Reading it, I think it should be renamed meism. I don't really see this as anthing related to the devil. Other than it was probably made because someone dispised Christianity.


the remark "angry stubborn mindless religious fanatics" was about the ones who would take this way too far {and at this point i may be guilty of that.}
but i invisioned people coming in here angry because it was directly opposite to christianity. being stubborn and simply spewing out "satan is evil god is good, just because" mindless because they would just write out scripture without thought. and being fanatical about the whole ordeal.
All right, that makes sense. I never thought arguing using the Bible with people who didn't believe in it made much sence anyway.

[MDN]

I am not sure either, I am just stating my opinion on it.

-----------

Don't you think it's contradicting itself:

Stupidity -- The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid.

AND.... VII Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all fours, who, because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual development, has become the most vicious animal of all!


I'd also like to know how satanism can deny Spirituality and tell you to be natural, when INFACT spirituality is in our genes.



Maybe it's just me, but I just don't like the idea of being mean to people and destroying them only because they annoy me.

[jonmonk]

I'd also like to know how satanism can deny Spirituality and tell you to be natural, when INFACT spirituality is in our genes.

I totally agree with that.

[JayKayD]

Hah i like the way my post got dismissed as biased just because i argued that Satan does equal evil. I am Atheist, i don't see how i could be biased.

As an atheist, i believe God was invented by man (for various reasons i won't get in to). These same people invented Satan to give a name to sins, be the opposite to God, by definition, to be evil. By opposite this meant not even following the ten commandments, such as 'do not kill, do not steal and so forth'. The morals you have, that make you a good person, whether you like it or not were laid down by religion. You can't deny History, civil society was created when everyone was religious, religion shaped society's infancy.

As Anton LeVays version of Satanism obviously follows some of the ten commandments, i.e. he does not allow killing, it obviously means it defies the definition of Satan. He has made an alternate definition to Satan, one that is not as bad as the original. Therefore i really can't understand why he called it Satanism, other than to piss off christians. Which makes him a bit of an ass in my opinion.

Oh and to the person who asked, yes i have read Plato, Kant and Dewie. I have also read Aristotle, St.Augustine, Hobbes, Locke, Smith, Paine, Roussuea, Nietzche, Marx, Machiavelli, Hegel and a couple of others i can't think of offhand.

[Mark_Campbell]

youve read marx is a very broad statement, marx wrote a lot of stuff

[Banpen Fugyo]

"stop talking about satan in the way YOU view him"
The way we view him? the fact stays that satan is of evil background and is not someone who looks out for humans or wants them to be happy...cant you see the satanic bible is based to make you codemn yourself into the devils grasp, the devil can appear of good nature to you if he wants something in reward.
The devil works by deception, the devil can decieve people with words of wisdom and words even of holy nature..just by following these words that may seem righteous, you open yourself to attacks of possession.

LOL, says who? Have you talked to him personally?

"As for "Satan" being a entity... Satanist dont believe in satan."
really? then why do satanists draw pentagrams and bathe in animals blood, and slaughter people in the name of the devil?

Because they dont. Like already stated, they dont kill animals or humans.

[JayKayD]

youve read marx is a very broad statement, marx wrote a lot of stuff

Oh hell no i haven't read all Marx's writings, that'd just be masochistic. I've just read whats even remotely interesting.

I doubt you've read all of the works of the names you gave, especially Plato as half his stuff has been lost so you couldn't possibley have read it all.

[Banpen Fugyo]

Can't even devote 4 out of 148 hours in the week? How sad. Tekkengod, you are one hostile person. If someone post a something warning others of their own religion, it is not to you and you have no business replying.

"angry subborn mindless religious fanatics" indeed. To me, this is the pot calling the kettle black where the kettle is often times much cleaner that the pot anyways.

The REAL problem with Satanism, or me-ism as I will now hereby refer to it is that me-ism leaves no room for anyoneelse-ism. Let me refer to you rules and point out what I mean.

1. following this rule will leave a society full of fatherless children, divorce, abandon children, and STD epidemics. Even the best modern birth control is not 100% protection. Don't even get started on STDs, which protection % go far down.

2. Translation: Ignore the spiritual so you have no god to answer to, which makes you your own god.

3. Translation: Call all religion (except mine) self-deceit. That way, you don't have to listen to what others say about the spiritual, you just tell them that they are lying to themselves, but you aren't. Of coarse, you have no way of knowing if you are the one really deceiving yourself, except that I told you.

4. This is the perfect advise to make enemies and start fights, be nice to only those that you like.

5. A great follower to 4, be mean to them, and then hit them if they cross you. (just imagine to a minute if everyone followed the above to rules. Try thinking of rush hour traffic)

6. I don't know what religion, except liberalism, that ever says a person is not responsible for their actions. Kinda makes the 2nd part not make much sense.

7. So people are evil and lower than animals. This sounds like justification for genocide at worst and paranoia at best.

8. Immediate gratification with the cost to others or to yourself later. I imagine that this was written as a reply to Christian sins, all of which are in place, except arguably the worship God ones, to protect yourself. I'll take the last 5 of the Ten Commandments:
Do not murder. I don't need to elaborate what this would cause.
Do not comment adultery. See my response to the first satanic rule
Do not steal. If everyone stole what ever they wanted, no one would buy anything and the economy would collapse
Do not lie. Now, everyone can trust you. No need to background check your facts or take measures if you don't come through with your promise.
Do not covet Nothing good ever came from wanting something that it was wrong for you to have. You either agonize over not having it or do something you will regret.

9. Inserting the word selves for Satan, I don't really see anything special about this sentence.

I just realized I was looking at the statements as rules. I guess there is no deference other than semantics, so just insert statement for rule.


Now for their rules.
1-3 sound fine.
4 is a female dog. How do you know he wasn't annoying you by accident? And it seems a little crime to treat with no mercy
5 is OK but 6 seems like its playing tricks. "Hey, that's my Xbox!" "It's a burden for you, you have school to do."
7: Nothing is spiritual except magic? What about the magical psychic vampires?
8: Yeah like cruelty when you annoy someone.
9 is OK
10: also add population control for animals.
11: Why not just never bother anyone? And destroying them because they bother you seems too much for such a small crime.

Sins:
Stupidity: Reading the paragraph, it seems stupidity is the wrong word to use. Insert a gullibility or blind following. Of coarse, it is bad to follow and be a sheep . . . except when it some to our religion

Pretentiousness: Nothing good about this, but this religion seems built around oneself which would put yourself on a higher pedestal than anyone else which would be pretentiousness.

Solipsism: I find this one to be hilarious for two reasons. One: "It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them." Yeah, like destroying them for bothering you. Lots of courtesy there. Two, it is weird that it talks about projecting you into their position, yet to treat someone cruelly and without mercy for annoying you is to judge them, and judging requires that you project what you have seen and heard in order to deemed them worthy of punishment or innocent.

Self-deceit: What the paragraph seems to be saying is to not be a sheep again. Which I have already talked about. But it also mentions that you are not suppose to worship something unless you have reason to, not just because someone else has told you. Which I agree with.

Herd Conformity: Is this the 4th time its been mentioned?

Lack of Perspective: I want to know why a Satanist should care about history if he destroys those who bother him and take such obvious paths to self-destruction. Maybe they aren't obvious and I have just been blessed that I can see them.

Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies: Know your history is good advice.

Counterproductive Pride: That's true, but we could argue all day on what counter productivity is. I, myself, would go as far as to say that just about all pride is bad.

Lack of Aesthetics: looks like they really took in the philosophy mumbo jumbo. Balance what so it is beautiful? And why isn't beauty pleasing? Isn't that what beauty is suppose to do? It sounds as if the balance you achieve is really going for the instant gratification and doing that well.

That's my $2. (because 2 cents just didn't seem enough).


Edit: please don't close it. I'll be good. :Angel:


Thats a very good post, and although Im at work and dont have enough time to reply to everything right now, i will say that its a strange contridiction. But as alot of philosophy guys have said before: ie Krishnamurti, its hard to tell people how they should live by saying not to listen to anyone. Perhaps satanism is just getting the message across that you should be knowlegable in all relgions and to choose one after examining all, and if it ends up being satanism, fine, but if it doesnt, you kinda already have followed some of it (not being part of the herd).

[Radok]

Awesome, I said I was a satanist, when was this?





1) "Hail Satan!" (the exclamation point is optional, though preferred) is often another way of saying "Hail Me!" Since we Satanists embody the qualities of the archetype of Satan, it stands to reason that the phrase is both apropos and analogous. You very well could say "Hail Me!" instead, but keep in mind this...



So your Satan. Nice, to meet you.

[Mark_Campbell]

Oh hell no i haven't read all Marx's writings, that'd just be masochistic. I've just read whats even remotely interesting.

I doubt you've read all of the works of the names you gave, especially Plato as half his stuff has been lost so you couldn't possibley have read it all.

where did i list philosophers ive read?

[Bellator Manus]

I think I just relized something. Let me see if I can put it down where it makes sence.

I am pretty sure that Satanism was invented because the person who invented it hated Christanity. The name alone is very strong evidence for this. Out of all the things you could have names it, Humanism, Experiencism, Fluffy Bunnyism, the guy who made it, named it after what is considered the epitimy of evil. I don't think he was really looking to be accepted by in the arena of ideas.

So, he rejected Christ and made his own moral standard, which I believe he made as a I can do what I want standard and made a moral code for himself.

So by rejecting Christanity and accepting his moral code, you are showing you can't think of one youself and you become a sheep in a religon apposed to the idea!

I'll just throw that out there if it hasn't been mentioned.

[JayKayD]

where did i list philosophers ive read?

Oh sorry, it was someone else not you, my bad.

I agree with what weirdalan said, thats pretty much what i was saying.

[b33p]

"thats the point of life, to ENJOY IT!!!"
And you need a book to tell you that?

[tekkengod]

no, i was stating the obvious, apparently some people do.

[megk]

Can someone tell me why it is called Satanism?
And why do satanist "Hail Satan" if they don't believe Satan to be a real entity?
Why not simply hail themselves?
I'm confused. :confused:
Why try to convince people that is not about satan when it is called Satanism? Honestly, can someone answer that? :o

Why wouldn't the satanists be proud of satan, after all the religion they follow is named Satanism.

Also, where does the magic satanists talk of manifest from? In Christianity miracles manifest from the power of God. Wouldn't the magic of Satanism manifest from the power of Satan? This kind of flies in the face of Satanism being all about the satanist.

[Bellator Manus]

As I said earlier, my hypothosis, I think the founder called it Satanism to shock and surprise Christians, which I imagine was the religon he was brought up in and rejected.

Just imagine . . . "So, what denomination are you?" "Oh, I'm Satanist." Christian: :eek:

[jonmonk]

Also, where does the magic satanists talk of manifest from? In Christianity miracles manifest from the power of God. Wouldn't the magic of Satanism manifest from the power of Satan? This kind of flies in the face of Satanism being all about the satanist.

Many spiritual / religious belief systems believe magic to be a part of nature. I don't think they expect it to come from a God in the Christian sense of the word. There are many that would say that we're all capable of performing 'magic'.

weirdalan is probably right though. I'm sure this is an anti-establishment organisation / religion and that they're trying to get up the noses of Christians (to good effect it would seem ;) )

[megk]

I understand that, but why then would you interject Satan into basic teachings of the religion? Is the whole thing just to tic off Christians or put them on the defense? If that is the case, then I wouldn't want anything to do with it, it would be shallow.
Don't people invest time and energy in things they actually believe to be true or real? If the whole religion of Satanism was set up just to make Christians uncomfortable, it would be a waste of time to follow that religion.

OK so the power of a Satanist to do magic comes from nature? Then why not be a wiccan or something along those lines.

[b33p]

Its not a religion if there is no afterlife mentioned?

[aikiMac]

As I said earlier, my hypothosis, I think the founder called it Satanism to shock and surprise Christians [etc, other people suggesting the same]
A reasonable explanation. Let's suppose it's true. This is immature behavior. Therefore, the founder of Satanism and all of his original church members were immature people.

Ouch! Did I say that out loud?
But hey, think about it.

So, it seems to me that we've got two major flaws in this religion: One, if everyone obeyed the basic tenets listed in the original post, then civilization would collapse. (Contrast that with Christianity -- if everyone obeyed the basic tenets, we'd have a paradise.) And two, as best as we know, the religion was founded for immature reasons.

I'm so NOT impressed.

[JayKayD]

See, Aton LeVay was an ass!

[jonmonk]

I don't think anyone on this thread is particularly impressed with it are they? For me personally, I'd want something a lot more positive than that.

[Infrazael]

I'm writing this from a Chaoist's (also spelled Chaosist/Chaote) (1) point of view.

Christianity - Dogmatic, Objective, Supreme Religion of the third Aeon. From my study of Chaoist Aeonics (even though there is no "Chaoist" anything, I will use Chaoism as an objective "thing" for the sake of easy comprehension), I have come to believe that the Age of Pisces, is actually the transitional shift from the 3rd fully into the 4th Aeon. Aeonics will be described in greater detail at the end of this post, if you are interested.

The third Aeon was extremely oppressive to spiritual/magickal/shamanistic development. Laws and ideals were created to destroy the spirit. Magickal practices were condemned as the Churches, Synagogues and Mosques took prime power before all other practices.

Egypt, Babylonia, Persia, Rome and various other Paganistic societies fromt the second Aeon were destroyed, crushed, and suppressed. Even worse, the dogmatic religions have begun to destroy themselves with the desire to suppress!!! Religious Jihads, Crusades, Witch Hunts, Convertions are all part of this madness. Everything is now condemned as "sinful" per those who are in power. Monotheism has become the predominant powerhouse. Everything else is condemned and destroyed.

As time progressed, the Age of Pisces becomes ever more destructive. Wars are constantly increasing, ideals shifting, rifts appearing between even factions of the same religion. Atheism appears.

The fourth Aeon is in near full development. The Atheist super-states are becoming ever more prevalent. Superstition, Mysticism, Religion and Magick are fully condemned. This will become just as damaging to the spirit as Dogmatic Monotheism.

When religion is fully suppressed, destroyed, or condemned (not necessarily locked up or killed, but rather condemned by the world as a whole), then the 4th Aeon will be in full gear. Science and Technology will become the new religion. Atheistic therapy, psychology and such works shall become the ways of the new priests. Magickal orders will once again be suppressed.

The 5th Aeon is, like Carroll put it, still in it's Embryonic state. We shall change it so that a new Golden Age may dawn upon humanity eventually. . . . . lest we destroy the world in the process. It's either an Aquarian Age, or a new Dark Age (not necessary the athesitic states either).

This history and series of "beliefs" is necessary for my point of view about Satanism. I view Satanism as oppressive to the spirit as dogmatic christianity. Chaoism is "no-thing" as in it is not something, whether metaphysical, physical, spiritual, religious, or magickal, in itself. Everything is done by the practitioner. My Chaoism is completely different from another's Chaoism. We have atheist Chaoists, Satanist Chaoists, Taoist Chaoists, etc etc. . . .

However, my problem with these is that many a time a Chaoist will become so locked up within their chosen paradigm. Satanism falls into this category. While invocations of Lucifer may be useful at certain times, it DOES NOT mean that it is the way to achieve all ends.

The so-called "Book of Satan" is nothing more than an mirror image of the Church. It is Yin and Yang. Satanism, if it gains prevalence among the world (which I don't believe will), is almost as oppresive to the Magickal workings as religious Monotheism will. I say "almost" because it actually recognizes magick as magick. . . . but then again, prayers to Jesus is magickal in nature as well. . . . so I might be wrong here. It might even be more damaging to magickians and otherwise as Monotheistic religions are. . . . . . . some food for thought.

Satanism has dogmas, beliefs, laws. These are useful, but only to an extent. When one is finished with it, throw it away. From what I've read of Satanism, it seems to be just as filled with laws and requirement as Christianity. To enjoy hedonism and pleasure of the flesh? To not do so is ignorant? Stupidity is the ultimate sin?

It seems the Satanist is just as objective as the Christian. Therefore, both religions are damaging. Be careful, my friends. There are many carefully hidden, destructive tools that people use. . . . . .

I must also imply that this "forced assimilation" of Montheism has been present in various other systems of belief as well, including Paganism, Golden Dawn, Roman beliefs, etc, etc. . . . . . this is not mutally exclusive between Montheism and Paganism.

Therefore, the Chaoists will seek to change and manipulate every paradigm he adopts to his own needs, desires, and Will. The power to change in accordance to one's Will is a great power. To tell someone you are not a sheep in the herd, is just being a sheep in the herd. That is why I, as a Chaoist, will look upon Satanism AND Christianity with disdain.

Dogmatism is only useful for attaining a desired result. Otherwise, it suppresses and destroys.

Proceed with your own caution.

I am at the end of my post. However, before I stop, I must say something before all of you start spitting at me (as I'm sure many of you will). Chaoism is not nothing, nor is it something. A paradox??? I don't know. Thinking about Chaos will lead to insanity.

Chaosim does not condemn religion, philosophy, nor anything. Neither does it support it. Neither does Chaos love, hate, have emotion, beliefs, or anything. However, it has everything as well.

Everything stated is MY PERSONAL OPINION and INTERPRETATION. Do not think of this as the basis of Chaosim, for there is no basis, and no non-basis.

Peace.

----------------

Aeonics -

First Aeon - Shamanistic society. Very strong connection with the psychic world, the Aether, Chaos, etc, etc, etc. Spiritual development is extremely powerful.

Second Aeon - Paganistic society. Much more complex forms of beliefs, religions and philosophies arise. Connection with Magick, the supernatural, spirits and such are still very strong.

Third Aeon - Monotheistic society. Complex monotheism, but suppresses the spirit/Kia/soul. Teaches destruction of those who does not conform to you. Beginning the "herding the sheep" formulas for controlling the masses. Controlls any Magickal practices, calls them 'sins,' 'evils,' among other things.

Fourth Aeon - Atheistic Super-States. Science and technology reigns supreme. Desire, consumerism, and materialism is encouraged by politicians and leaders. Truth is concealed, just as in the Third Aeon. Extremely dangerous to the Magickian and Kia.

Fifth Aeon - Still in its embryonic state. Can become a Golden Age, and Aquarian Age, or a new Dark Age even worse than any Aeon previously mentioned.

[Knight_Errant]

At least satanists don't pretend to have the moral highground.

[Infrazael]

Neither do I. Infact, most Chaoists use these two states.

"Nothing is true, everything is permitted."

"Everything is true, nothing is permitted."

Meaning that there is no objective truth in the universe, including this statement. Also, everthing is objective truth.

In MY opinion, that is what these statements mean. By creating a paradox, you're able to draw things from raw Chaos in a much more streamlined way.

In fact, Chaoists will laugh at you when you start preaching morality, philosophy, right/wrong, dogmas, etc. Because they believe that none of the above exists.

To the Chaoist, the only thing that matters are results. The ends justifies the means, and the means will differ from everyone.

[medi]

Personally I think "Love may fail, but courtesy will prevail" carries a much better message to base your life on.

[b33p]

i read that first sentence and thought 'what is this <deleted>'

[cloudz]

Infrazael

Nice posts mate,

This thread is throwing up some interesting stuff.

On the subject of 'majick', I'm sure if you asked some one who's had experience with cults they'll tell you that it really amounts to subtle and not so subtle mind control techniques, manipulations etc. For the satanist/survivealist approach see Machievellian type stuff. For the other side look at how the evangelists operate.

It really amounts to abuse of philosophy/religion to gain influence, charisma, power etc.

So I guess you could call me a taoist chaosist, but I'm not a big fan of labels, so just call me GEO ;)

[Knight_Errant]

And anyway, why do you spell magic with a 'k' in it?

[JayKayD]

I'd guess so that people don't automatically think of someone pulling rabbits out of a hat, making the ace disappear and sawing women in half. Probabley wasn't the image they were going for.

[Infrazael]

And anyway, why do you spell magic with a 'k' in it?

To differentiate between "stage magic" (Las Vegas stuff) and manipulations using the will, subconscious of the aether, astral plane, or whatever you believe in (magick).

Either way is fine by me, but I only use it to differentiate between things.

[tekkengod]

Its not a religion if there is no afterlife mentioned?

so then they need to just throw in, "you die and rot in the ground" then it'll be an offical religion.

[Knight_Errant]

To differentiate between "stage magic" (Las Vegas stuff) and manipulations using the will, subconscious of the aether, astral plane, or whatever you believe in (magick).

Either way is fine by me, but I only use it to differentiate between things.
To differentiate between two different varieties of parlour trick?

[Infrazael]

"magick" is not performed in a parlour at all. . . . . making your statement there obsolete.

Oh sure, you get Tarot guys, supposed magickians who do palm reading for money, but most of those are crap.

You get Cons everywhere. KE, you're atheist right???

[myki]

Apparently Siphus opened a big can of worms by daring to bring an alternate view from the shadows.
I’ve studied different religions, from Christianity to Islam to Buddhism to Hinduism to Judaism and even Satanism. Though I don’t consider Satanism a ‘religion’ so much as a life philosophy.

I’ve met and spoken with several Satanists and find them fine, law abiding people. I think some confuse Satanism with goth, vampires, devil worshippers and the like. They are as much Satanists as the KKK are Christian or Al Queda are Muslim. These off shot groups are an abhorrent example of the original.

Satanists do not bow down before any deity, they are not ant-Christ though don’t take well to being preached to, they don’t sacrifice animals etc, and they don’t try to convert people to Satanism. This comes from a guy who is not a Satanist but wanted knowledge.

Satanism was born from LeVay’s experience as a crime photographer for the San Francisco Police Dept. He saw horrific events caused by the hand of man for which his church offered absolutely no comfort. He retreated to books by famous philosophers for relief and from that, The Church of Satan was born. He chose “Satan” for two reasons:

1. In opposition to church dogma which he felt kept man weak and insecure about his true nature; and
2. Shock value

As I mentioned earlier, I don’t personally follow Satanism but I admire some of the principles. I’m more of a Zen guy and I accept all religion for what they are.

Reading some of the purely reactionary posts here, I think it is a perfect example of how ignorance leads to hatred. I find it interesting how views different from one’s own can cause such violent responses.

[AZeitung]

"magick" is not performed in a parlour at all. . . . . making your statement there obsolete.

Come on, man, you're from Washington. Spell it "parlor". Maybe we can say that "parlours" are where magick is performed, and "parlors" are where "magic" is performed. Or vice versa.

[tekkengod]

Apparently Siphus opened a big can of worms by daring to bring an alternate view from the shadows.
I’ve studied different religions, from Christianity to Islam to Buddhism to Hinduism to Judaism and even Satanism. Though I don’t consider Satanism a ‘religion’ so much as a life philosophy.

I’ve met and spoken with several Satanists and find them fine, law abiding people. I think some confuse Satanism with goth, vampires, devil worshippers and the like. They are as much Satanists as the KKK are Christian or Al Queda are Muslim. These off shot groups are an abhorrent example of the original.

Satanists do not bow down before any deity, they are not ant-Christ though don’t take well to being preached to, they don’t sacrifice animals etc, and they don’t try to convert people to Satanism. This comes from a guy who is not a Satanist but wanted knowledge.

Satanism was born from LeVay’s experience as a crime photographer for the San Francisco Police Dept. He saw horrific events caused by the hand of man for which his church offered absolutely no comfort. He retreated to books by famous philosophers for relief and from that, The Church of Satan was born. He chose “Satan” for two reasons:

1.In opposition to church dogma which he felt kept man weak and insecure about his true nature; and
2.Shock value

As I mentioned earlier, I don’t personally follow Satanism but I admire some of the principles. I’m more of a Zen guy and I accept all religion for what they are.

Reading some of the purely reactionary posts here, I think it is a perfect example of how ignorance leads to hatred. I find it interesting how views different from one’s own can cause such violent responses.
Great points, good post.

[Mark_Campbell]

is it me or has everyone who was voiced support for satanism agree with "some of the points". Now nobody to my mind has come on and said "wow, every point makes sense, im a convert" which kind of goes towards proving that satanism is really not a religion as it claims its not. Im not saying siphus and tekkengod are satanists but they accept satanic values. We`ve now (hopefully, after about a week of bloody reactionary posts) decided that "satanism" and "the church of satan" are really just ambiguous labels, and the posts agreeing with the original have, i would say, proved an aspect of the rules.

p.s myki`s posts was excellent, not because i agree with it, but because it was balanced and researched and it forces anyone who wants to argue against it to raise their game from "Jesus says, and god loves"

[Blooming Lotus]

Satanism just advocates and highlights yang ( tangible / physical / material ) aspects and immediate gratification operandi. If this is your bag, then they probably have the means and ways. ;)

Blooming Lotus

[Knight_Errant]

"magick" is not performed in a parlour at all. . . . . making your statement there obsolete.

Oh sure, you get Tarot guys, supposed magickians who do palm reading for money, but most of those are crap.

You get Cons everywhere. KE, you're atheist right???
Yup, and by the way- all 'magic', whether 'magic' or 'magick' is fake ;)

[AZeitung]

Or, in the case of "magick", "facke".

[Dancing Shadow]

Whats so bad about satanism?
Well, I'm a little late in finding this thread, but I have to wonder if it is a sincere question. Are you sincerely wanting to know the negative side of the belief system? Or are you merely looking for an interesting debate? :confused:

[Banpen Fugyo]

actually this thread was just to stir everyones little minds into thought. That even tho nobody really agrees with all the points, it does a very good philosophy about life, and about beliefs. I just thought it would be interesting to see how many people had ignorant opinions. Its worked pretty well, congratulations.

[myki]

Yup, and by the way- all 'magic', whether 'magic' or 'magick' is fake ;)

I think if you were to investigate further, the satanist form of “magick” is nothing more than psychological manipulation to gain something.
People use this every day…my wife says “Wow! This house is a mess!” Next thing you know, I’m cleaning the house, my wife gets her wish. There’s no hocus pocus, it’s just a name LeVay called it.

If you fear something, look deeply into it. You will always ask yourself afterwards “Why was I worried about that?”
I had a friend that informed me he was a Satanist. At first I was shocked but then I investigated further. Something new and different shouldn’t just be cast aside without clarification. That is action out of fear and ignorance. I think we have enough of that in the world.

As Martial Artists, we have the unique opportunity to become enlightened both physically and mentally. We must adapt what we learn on the mats to our whole life, not just physical confrontation. If you’re only in MA to learn to fight, then you’re wasting a tremendous opportunity.

As an end note, I feel I must clarify, I am not a Satanist. I merely looked into the philosophy deeply for my own knowledge.
I also know a lot about hockey, but oddly enough, have never played in the NHL!

[Blooming Lotus]

Great comment, particularly on the fear synopsis . What sub-branch school of thought and practice isn't a pyshological manipulation though??? I think that's just life and diffrent ppl are going to respond to different ones dictated by their present needs. Whatever gets a person through though ha.

cheers

BL

[myki]

Great comment, particularly on the fear synopsis . What sub-branch school of thought and practice isn't a pyshological manipulation though??? I think that's just life and diffrent ppl are going to respond to different ones dictated by their present needs. Whatever gets a person through though ha.

cheers

BL

Totally agree with your comment BL. I think every branch and sub-branch uses pm to some degree, the trick is to become aware of it. Don't judge, just be aware.

Cheers back!

[Bellator Manus]

Myki, don't you find it a least bit disturbing that they teach taking revenge on who ever bothers you? Or that if they were in a lawkess zone, anything except stealing from you or raping you becomes not a sin?

[tekkengod]

sooooooooooo.......you'd rather them steal your stuff and rape you too? ok, got it.

not even showing some moral is good enough!?!?

[Bellator Manus]

I'd rather him not try to kill me. The more selfless the better. I'd try to do the same. No, having a little "moral" is not really good enough. It's good that I won't have to worry about my stuff, but I would hardly want to sleep with one eye open.

Oh, maybe your comment was sarcasm.

[myki]

Myki, don't you find it a least bit disturbing that they teach taking revenge on who ever bothers you? Or that if they were in a lawkess zone, anything except stealing from you or raping you becomes not a sin?

I’ll answer the last part first:

IMO, man doesn’t sin, he creates obstacles in life. Over a lifetime, we make choices, some good, some bad, but from them we learn. If you steal or rape, you go to prison. That was a choice.
Is it sin per se? Who knows? Mother Teresa once said, “In the final analysis, it is not between me and you, it is between you and God.”

Imagine a society where the people are taught not to turn the other cheek (Christian). Imagine turning your back on playing the victim all the time and standing up to the bad guys and saying “No! You’re not doing this!”
Imagine a society that teaches not to ignore a person in trouble (Satanism). Imagine helping a person being beaten or victimized by another by kicking the bad guy’s a**.

That is my ideal society. Not too meek yet not too egocentric. Revenge? No. Revenge requires acting in a REactive manner. I would lean towards acting PROactively. Like the scouts, always be prepared. If a bad guy decides to make a victim out of you, reciprocate in kind. In a society where there are no weak, mild victims to prey upon and we watch each other’s back, crime will move on.

[Blooming Lotus]

I'd rather him not try to kill me. The more selfless the better. I'd try to do the same. No, having a little "moral" is not really good enough. It's good that I won't have to worry about my stuff, but I would hardly want to sleep with one eye open.

Oh, maybe your comment was sarcasm.

Whatever their method or logic in acheiving their goals, and however hedonistic, you've got admit , the technique's effective!
Personally rather than waste my time concerned with opb ( other ppls business) I'd rather work on my defence , condition or peace to react appropriately. :confused: ;)

BL

[Blooming Lotus]

Mother Teresa once said, “In the final analysis, it is not between me and you, it is between you and God.”
.

I love that statement!!!! I had no idea she coined it, but I use it myself. If you can't find forgiveness or understanding, there's always peace with your own actions! ;) :cool:

cheers Myki


BTL

[myki]

“what’s so bad about Satanism?” I want to answer that. (I just realized I’ve offered lots of opinion but not an answer!)

Ego. That’s what’s bad about Satanism. Ego defines you, makes you compare yourself with others, makes want and desire. Left unchecked, it leads to hatred, jealousy and fear.
Satanism is set out in a manner that is attractive to those with little to zero self esteem. Sorry, but that’s the bottom line.

The Church of Satan gives a philosophy that plays into the self and ego, thereby letting people off the hook of taking part in a society for God.
Letting ego lead the way, however, will lead to ignorance. It is as bad as belonging to an extreme church of God.

In both cases, you put on the 'precept blindfold' and wander through life. Personally, I take the blindfold off and actually see what is going on, neither leaning too far one way or the other. The middle road, as it were.

My 2 cents and my opinion.

[tekkengod]

I'd rather him not try to kill me. The more selfless the better. I'd try to do the same. No, having a little "moral" is not really good enough. It's good that I won't have to worry about my stuff, but I would hardly want to sleep with one eye open.

Oh, maybe your comment was sarcasm.

just a little bit :D

[tekkengod]

The more selfless the better. I'd try to do the same

that sounds like cult talk to me. YOU are what matters most NOT an invisable man who lives in the sky, NOR anyone else. cause at the end of the day, thats all you really have, YOU!

[Bellator Manus]

So, being not selfish is a cult now? I understand the self presorvation mind set, I mean, I am gonna try to survive, too. But I won't sacrifice someone else's need or comfort for mine.

[tekkengod]

I am gonna try to survive, too. But I won't sacrifice someone else's need or comfort for mine.


uh hu........ok.....then how do you expect to survive? you have to make some people uncomfortable period.

how the hell you can care more about a complete strangers comfort over yours is beyond me. you obviously odn't understand self preservation, it means you hurt him before he hurts you, it means you take his food before he takes yours ec. if you cause someone discomfort your just gonna stop trying to achieve what ever your goal is?

[myki]

uh hu........ok.....then how do you expect to survive? you have to make some people uncomfortable period.

how the hell you can care more about a complete strangers comfort over yours is beyond me. you obviously odn't understand self preservation, it means you hurt him before he hurts you, it means you take his food before he takes yours ec. if you cause someone discomfort your just gonna stop trying to achieve what ever your goal is?
I have a scenario for you TG..

You're walking past a school when you see a man grabbing a young girl around the waist and drag her to a van. The girl is screaming "I don't know you! Someone help me!"

Do you:
A- ignore it and keep walking out of self preservation? or

B-Use your skills as a MAist and stop the man. (I'm not saying kick his a**, but stop him until you ascertain what is going on...then kick his a**!)

Just wondering. I'm not attacking you, just getting an idea of where you're coming from.

Cheers

[tekkengod]

I have a scenario for you TG..

You're walking past a school when you see a man grabbing a young girl around the waist and drag her to a van. The girl is screaming "I don't know you! Someone help me!"

Do you:
A- ignore it and keep walking out of self preservation? or

B-Use your skills as a MAist and stop the man. (I'm not saying kick his a**, but stop him until you ascertain what is going on...then kick his a**!)

Just wondering. I'm not attacking you, just getting an idea of where you're coming from.

Cheers

hmmm...thats a good scenario. well, a few variables.
do i have a weapon? am i the only other person present? how many people are in the van.

i will have a weapon cause i always have a knife on me. most likely i would go inspect the situation. but if i thought for an instant that the attacker was packing a gun. i'd walk by and get the plates or maybe tail them and call the police. if he was unarmed and it was just him and maybe a driver, i'd definately subdue the guy. and if the driver got out of the car, draw my knife to a safe position, possibly the mans throat to avoid any oncoming possibility of gun fire or further attack. make sure the girl got to some help.

[Strafio]

Notice how NONE of those solutions involved just leaving her, you selfless get! :p

[myki]

hmmm...thats a good scenario. well, a few variables.
do i have a weapon? am i the only other person present? how many people are in the van.

i will have a weapon cause i always have a knife on me. most likely i would go inspect the situation. but if i thought for an instant that the attacker was packing a gun. i'd walk by and get the plates or maybe tail them and call the police. if he was unarmed and it was just him and maybe a driver, i'd definately subdue the guy. and if the driver got out of the car, draw my knife to a safe position, possibly the mans throat to avoid any oncoming possibility of gun fire or further attack. make sure the girl got to some help.
Those are good answers!

And, as Strafio pointed out, at no time did you walk away from the girl in trouble.

That speaks volumes. It shows us you can maintain a certain level of self preservation (carrying a knife) while still showing compassion for another in need.

Cheers!

[Blooming Lotus]

Actually, I think you'll find that carrying a knife comes under the criminal code definition of " concealing a dangerous weapon " ;)

cheers

BL

[myki]

Actually, I think you'll find that carrying a knife comes under the criminal code definition of " concealing a dangerous weapon " ;)

cheers

BL
You're right BL, but like the old saying:
I'd rather be tried by 12, than carried by 6.

[Blooming Lotus]

Agree but laws are laws and unjustified paranoia resulting in criminal activity is a whole kettle of fish all of it's own............. criminal insanity rings a few bells :eek:

cheers

[tekkengod]

Those are good answers!

And, as Strafio pointed out, at no time did you walk away from the girl in trouble.

That speaks volumes. It shows us you can maintain a certain level of self preservation (carrying a knife) while still showing compassion for another in need.

Cheers!

well i am concerned about myself more than anything else, and if there is a way to help others with out endangering myself too much, then i will, but i will always come first.

[myki]

Agree but laws are laws and unjustified paranoia resulting in criminal activity is a whole kettle of fish all of it's own............. criminal insanity rings a few bells :eek:

cheers
I totally agree BL, laws are laws. But if someone like TG wishes to carry a knife to protect himself, then I say do it!
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that everyone needs to arm themselves, but the option, no..freedom should be there. I don't consider this paranoia, just common sense.
Laws are laws, definitely! For those of us who abide by them.

Also a question..(I can never just make a point, as my wife tells me!)

What would you consider the difference between someone carrying a knife and someone trained in a MA?
You attack a well trained MAist and you run the risk of losing eyes, teeth or having bones broken.

Just a thought!

Cheers, eh!

[tekkengod]

if someone like TG wishes to carry a knife to protect himself, then I say do it!

I don't consider this paranoia, just common sense.

What would you consider the difference between someone carrying a knife and someone trained in a MA?
You attack a well trained MAist and you run the risk of losing eyes, teeth or having bones broken.

exactly, if you feel you need to carry a knife/gun/tazer/mace/ do so. period.

i don't think i NEED to carry a knife, but its always a good habit to be prepared, and its nothing huge mind you, a pair of push knives or a 3 inch blade.

i think a well trained MAist in the right art and mindset would be just as deadly as a knife. but obviously a knife is more of a stop it before it starts approach. obviously i'd fear the knife more don't underestimate a few wide wild slashes

[JayKayD]

You know if the police ever catch you in a compromising position that knife could land you in a lot of trouble.

[tekkengod]

indeed it could. i keep it on my leg, its a small push knife like i said. so i keep it as well hidden as i can.

[Noib Da Mutt]

I'm not getting involved in this debate, it's too ridiculous to me... But I'd like to note, that for people saying Satanism has nothing to do with satan, you're an idiot... Key word- satan... That's like saying a gun range has no guns, or there's no evolving in evolution, or no christ in christianity, or no buddha in buddhism for that matter... I could care less who participates in satanism or not, or who believes in christ or not... But what I don't like is when people try to make something into something it's not... There is nothing moral about satanism at all, and it teaches selfishness... You want to be that type of person, fine, but call it what it is... On the other side, christians, and fellow believers, don't go preaching away the evils of these people and all of the good things you've done, and your faith has done, because its hypocritical, they're not listening anyways... They think they're being rebellious, or cool, or whatever it is and will not listen to you no matter how hard you try to feign care and concern at the expense of how pissed off these people are making you, which is exactly what they want to do... Inside you want to tell them to f off, and they're going to hell, and blah blah blah yada yada yada... But no, you must set a good example of your faith, and pretend not to judge them, when in reality, that's exactly what you're doing in your heart... Face it, discussions of faith are retarted because someone is always identified as being wrong in their beliefs, and no one wants to hear that... That's why I don't consider myself a christian, when in reality, that's exactly what I am... Damn christians think they're always doin' the lord's work, always think they're in the good because they believe, think they got to save the world... Do you christians have any idea how this would make someone feel? And on the same end, people like tekken, always feeling it neccessary to say how stupid people are for believeing in an "invisible being"... man, shut up, just shut up, because you practice foolish wisdom, all of you do... Everyone thinks they have the right answer when no one does... I am so convinced now that actions are our only teacher... Because that is all someone will remember, and all that can really effect someone... They want to be satanists, go right ahead, its their preference, granted by today's society, couldn't have done it openly 100, 200 years ago... You want to be a christian, then do that... Want to do something else, do it... Want to be athiest, do it... But stop trying to convince people you're beliefs are the only ones that should be allowed, or are right, especially tekken, I see you too often "God doesn't exist, why doesn't he show himself? You believe in an invisible person in the sky? I'm calling him out.... blah blah blah" You're not very intelligent, the logic you offer half the time is garbage, and your intention is to be antagonistic more than have a discussion anyways...

... I'm done, you guys continue your intelligent discussion...

[myki]

Noib, you come to a religion area, see a thread called “What’s so bad about satanism” and get good and mad because people are offering their opinions on the subject?

The people who post here are not idiots. Some are quite passionate about their particular beliefs, but they are far from idiotic. That statement is not only offensive, but comes from ignorance.

The only point I want to cover in your diatribe is when you said that Satanism is about selfishness. That is absolutely correct! Further, no one here has denied that.

I would close by saying that reading on a forum is like watching a television show that you don’t like. You have a choice…
Sit there and have a hissy fit of how stupid the show and the producers are; or

get up and change the channel! It’s very simple.

I’d suggest you change the channel before you have a stroke!

Cheers!

[tekkengod]

i notice you mentioned me a few times Noib, i say those things, because A} i believe them to be true. B}i don't think its too much to ask of him. C} if you want to say similar things about my beliefs. GO AHEAD!!! won't bother me, i promise {religious beliefs} there aren't many things that make me angry. but the things that DO make me angry drive me to insanity, so it may seem like i was being excessive. but your post almost sounds as if you've acknowlaged the things i'd said and you don't want to.
they don't think they are nessecarily rebellious {i am not a satanist by the way} i am an atheist. but what their beliefs show them is that you don't have to nessecarily rely on a quote unquote "Religion" to get by.

[JayKayD]

indeed it could. i keep it on my leg, its a small push knife like i said. so i keep it as well hidden as i can.

Ah ok then, because i once considered carrying a knife but came to the conclusion that its more trouble than its worth for me.

On what Niob said, although he did seem to get worked up i think he did make some good points. I think (although i could be wrong) what he was refering to was the people that tout their own beliefs while calling everyone else's stupid, as if they have the definitive answer.

[Noib Da Mutt]

^^^basically
Noib, you come to a religion area, see a thread called “What’s so bad about satanism” and get good and mad because people are offering their opinions on the subject?

The people who post here are not idiots. Some are quite passionate about their particular beliefs, but they are far from idiotic. That statement is not only offensive, but comes from ignorance.

The only point I want to cover in your diatribe is when you said that Satanism is about selfishness. That is absolutely correct! Further, no one here has denied that.

I would close by saying that reading on a forum is like watching a television show that you don’t like. You have a choice…
Sit there and have a hissy fit of how stupid the show and the producers are; or

get up and change the channel! It’s very simple.

I’d suggest you change the channel before you have a stroke!

Cheers!


no, its different because I can tell them the distaste that I feel for... whatever... which is exactly what I did... Further, I didn't call the people that post here idiots, I said people who are refusing to acknowledge that satanism has to do with satan are idiots, and even more so people who refuse to acknowledge the true nature of a thing... Outside of that, I could care less about their opinion, like I said, that's the way that want to live, great, but don't try to sugar coat what it is...


And Tekken, you do seem EXTREMELY excessive, to the point in which it seems as if you're trying to convince yourself more than other people... Obviously people aren't going to view the world or philisophical matters as you do, and you need to learn that... Learn acceptance and tolerance, instead of calling people names for their beliefs... I mean, I say something not to try and make you feel bad, but becasue you do it to the point of being an extreme annoyance... I mean, someone mentions God in a thread, and there you are... So, what I'm reccomending is that you keep it to relevant debates/discussions... Criticizing believers isn't going to make God show himself to you, so give it a rest, ok?

[myki]

No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means. ~George Bernard Shaw

There's something in every atheist, itching to believe, and something in every believer, itching to doubt. ~Mignon McLaughlin

We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. ~Jonathan Swift

Ithought those were pretty relative to the topic.

One funny story, also relative:

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off.
So I ran over and said 'Stop! don't do it!' 'Why shouldn't I?' he said. I said, 'Well, there's so much to live for!' He said, 'Like what?'

I said, 'Well...are you religious or atheist?' He said, 'Religious.' I said, 'Me too!
Are you Christian or Buddhist?' He said, 'Christian.' I said, 'Me too!
Are you Catholic or Protestant?' He said, 'Protestant.' I said, 'Me too!
Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?' He said, 'Baptist!' I said, 'Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist church of god or Baptist church of the lord?' He said, 'Baptist church of god!' I said, 'Me too!
Are you original Baptist church of god, or are you reformed Baptist church of god?' He said, 'Reformed Baptist church of god!' I said, 'Me too!
Are you reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?' He said, 'Reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!' I said, 'Die, heretic scum,' and pushed him off. ~Emo Phillips

[Blooming Lotus]

:cool: ;)

BL

[tekkengod]

what I'm reccomending is that you keep it to relevant debates/discussions... Criticizing believers isn't going to make God show himself to you, so give it a rest, ok?

no problem ;)

[Bellator Manus]

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off.
So I ran over and said 'Stop! don't do it!' 'Why shouldn't I?' he said. I said, 'Well, there's so much to live for!' He said, 'Like what?'

I said, 'Well...are you religious or atheist?' He said, 'Religious.' I said, 'Me too!
Are you Christian or Buddhist?' He said, 'Christian.' I said, 'Me too!
Are you Catholic or Protestant?' He said, 'Protestant.' I said, 'Me too!
Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?' He said, 'Baptist!' I said, 'Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist church of god or Baptist church of the lord?' He said, 'Baptist church of god!' I said, 'Me too!
Are you original Baptist church of god, or are you reformed Baptist church of god?' He said, 'Reformed Baptist church of god!' I said, 'Me too!
Are you reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?' He said, 'Reformed Baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!' I said, 'Die, heretic scum,' and pushed him off. ~Emo Phillipslol, hilarious.

uh hu........ok.....then how do you expect to survive? you have to make some people uncomfortable period.

how the hell you can care more about a complete strangers comfort over yours is beyond me. you obviously odn't understand self preservation, it means you hurt him before he hurts you, it means you take his food before he takes yours ec. if you cause someone discomfort your just gonna stop trying to achieve what ever your goal is?
Well, this is the deference in our ways of going about life. If I was in a life or death struggle, say that food was scarce on a deserted island. I would try to split the food evenly. The I would also make sure he doesn't steal food or waste it. I expect that that would step on some toes, but I wouldn't try to take it all and leave him to starve. You know, try to make as many survive as possible.

As for caring for strangers, well, that's part of Christianity. We realize that everyone is important to Jesus, so we try to take care of everyone.Criticizing believers isn't going to make God show himself to you, so give it a rest, ok?I say, bring it on! I can provide a logical answers to his questions/critisms.

[tekkengod]

I would try to split the food evenly. The I would also make sure he doesn't steal food or waste it. I expect that that would step on some toes, but I wouldn't try to take it all and leave him to starve. You know, try to make as many survive as possible.

As for caring for strangers, well, that's part of Christianity. We realize that everyone is important to Jesus, so we try to take care of everyone.

I say, bring it on! I can provide a logical answers to his questions/critisms.

well i too would try to split the food, but if it came down to the last piece of food you bet your ass i'm getting it.

caring for absolute strangers, i suppose thats good in intention. but think about this 9 times out of 10, your kindness will be returned with critisisim and anger.

no, you can't provide logical explinations. "he dosen't want to" or
"he won't show himself because then we'd all worship him" is definately NOT a logical answer, infact, the second one seems redundant, but in keeping with noibs wishes i won't keep going on that.

[Infrazael]

Yup, and by the way- all 'magic', whether 'magic' or 'magick' is fake ;)

This is the atheistic mindset I have been talking about. If the entire world were to be like plus a large dose of dictatorial beliefs, then all magickians, shamans, voodoo etc would no doubt be suppressed.

Like I said, I find both religious fundamentalism and atheistic fundamentalism equally disgusting.

Neither will lead to pure power or pure ecstacy. IMO, both have shut their minds to new experiences.

Thus, if you want my most extreme point of view, needs to be annihilated from this world.

Atheism works well, as a paradigm. But only a paradigm -- full belief in NOTHING will lead to nothing.

Conscious belief in oblivion after death will only lead to oblivion. Belief in hell will most likely lead to hell, and reincarnation to reincarnation. Conscious beliefs trigger unconcious powers latent in most human's minds.

Prayer's are simply another facet of the occult, if you ask the occultist. Praying to "god" is simply consciously trying to change an event. Whether god exists or not is irrelevent -- if he does, then he might as well change an event. If not, it is pure psychic influence on the ether, chaos, or some other force that is typically intangible from this world/dimension.

As a Left-hand-path Chaosist, my goal can be summed up as "purely selfish." Life is the great indulgence -- however, before that indulgence can be reached, one must sacrifice time, energy, space etc to gain enough power and Will to be able to immerse themselves in bliss.

However, pleasure is not the ONLY course. Power also comes into play. The LHP seeker will no doubt crave power. Power over what? That is up to the individual. However, most LHP seekers will tell you that their goal is to become a god in their own right. My personal belief of becoming a "god" is simply a being with an unimaginable amount of psychic power. . . . . able to directly manipulate chaos, the aether, etc, etc, etc. . . . . .

On a note of clarification, there are Chaosists who are seekers of the Right Hand Path, that is the path of Peace and Liberation. These tend to dwell on the beliefs of Taoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc. . . . . . . .

The Middle Path, or the Path of Knowledge, typically leads to nowhere It tries to implement both Black and White magick, and thus the results aren't very powerful. Peter J. Carroll thinks this is useless, but I have my personal beliefs of the Middle Path.

[tekkengod]

Thus, if you want my most extreme point of view, needs to be annihilated from this world.

Prayer's are simply another facet of the occult, if you ask the occultist. Praying to "god" is simply consciously trying to change an event.

Life is the great indulgence -- however, before that indulgence can be reached, one must sacrifice time, energy, space etc to gain enough power and Will to be able to immerse themselves in bliss.

good points. praying is a cult activity. Life is an indulgence, enjoy it.
and erasing all religion is a good idea. i agree with all of this, but the erasing religion will have a profound negative effect, might have to rethink that one.

[Bellator Manus]

well i too would try to split the food, but if it came down to the last piece of food you bet your ass i'm getting it.

caring for absolute strangers, i suppose thats good in intention. but think about this 9 times out of 10, your kindness will be returned with critisisim and anger.

no, you can't provide logical explinations. "he dosen't want to" or
"he won't show himself because then we'd all worship him" is definately NOT a logical answer, infact, the second one seems redundant, but in keeping with noibs wishes i won't keep going on that.How can it be not a logical answer? You asled why God does whatever, well, the only answers you'll find are through theology. Science doesn't measure someones desires, and it is fundementally wrong to think that science will explain why any one does anything (minus biological needs). Why do people invent religons? Can science measure that? Why do people love? Why do people not wish to love? Why does someone just rub another the wrong way? The science your thinking of won't do any of that. You would need psychology to figure any of that out. Theology is the equivalent to God as to psychology is what it is to humans. They both try to explain behavior.

I don't see what other reason you need to accept the answers. I get the strong feeling that you plain don't want to except them and no matter what I said, you never would like. I suggest you take a close look at how you view things. You claim your answer to God is science, but you have no science to answer with. You merely say no. You have built a wall of ignorance from which you can reject anything.

[Infrazael]

My view is simply this:

Both religious super-states and atheistic super-states lead to the destruction and suffocation of raw power.

To keep people under control.

BTW, I now wait for any stir of the Illuminati (the original one, NOT the Illuminati of Thanateros which is another matter altogether). I have heard rumors of them saying they will once again wage war against the Vatican with the election of this new Pope.

My piece of advice to you all -- watch out for danger from all corners, whether from the Vatican, Illuminati, Freemasons, or otherwise.

Each, plus others seeks control and secrecy in different ways . . . . . . one thing I've realized is this: once you immerse yourself in the world of the occult, it's difficult to get out.

Things that are out of your control, and you start to learn more about the dark side of the world.

Preparation for the worst is always necessary, because I have those who I care about.

Becareful what you believe in.

[JayKayD]

Are you saying don't become Witches?

[Infrazael]

I'm saying clinging onto one belief, think that it is the truth, the ultimate truth, and the sole truth might NOT be such a good idea.

This leads to close-mindedness, inability to adapt, and from what I have researched and believe to be true, inability to change what comes after death.

IE - I am atheist and I believe in oblivion after death. Thus, oblivion it is, and the soul, from such strong conviction, might be committing spiritual suicide from such beliefs, causing your conscious mind to be completely annihilated for eternity.

But hey, if that's what you want (although I have no idea why), then so be it.

However, in life such beliefs can also lead to a very powerful power source. Your undeniable faith in God might allow you to perform miracles and other magickal (or if you like, either using the conscious or unconscious mind to manipulate the probability or events happening in the material realm by manipulating the aether, raw chaos, or similar "mold" from various dimensions/planes) feats.

Still, the problem might come from NOT ABLE to fully control what you believe. For example, if you give all the power to God, then it will be "God" who controls the events. Your goals might NOT be reached -- that is, you're not actively using your OWN WILL to accomplish these goals. Rather, you are handing it to an outer, external entity.

Therefore, I believe that using your own Will and not clinging to one belief leads to the most power in the most efficient, controlled format.

[tekkengod]

How can it be not a logical answer? You asled why God does whatever, well, the only answers you'll find are through theology. Science doesn't measure someones desires, and it is fundementally wrong to think that science will explain why any one does anything (minus biological needs). Why do people invent religons? Can science measure that? Why do people love? Why do people not wish to love? Why does someone just rub another the wrong way? The science your thinking of won't do any of that. You would need psychology to figure any of that out. Theology is the equivalent to God as to psychology is what it is to humans. They both try to explain behavior.

I don't see what other reason you need to accept the answers. I get the strong feeling that you plain don't want to except them and no matter what I said, you never would like. I suggest you take a close look at how you view things. You claim your answer to God is science, but you have no science to answer with. You merely say no. You have built a wall of ignorance from which you can reject anything.

it is not a logical answer because that is redundant, isn't the entire purpose of church and religion to "worship" or to "gain followers" therfore he could save billions of dollars, and hours and effort by simply sayinh "look up" sounds like hes being a dick if you ask me. is phsycology not a form of science in its own way? its a medical science. Psychology seems to be more straight foeward and credible. where as theology is filled with cryptic conveniences.

i have been taking a hard look at my views, as well as other peoples views. its not so much a wall of ignorance, but a thirst for knowladge and the ability to think reasonably and use inductive reasoning. when i am provided with an answer that makes sense to me, reguardless of the topic, i accept it, dissect it, and move on to the next question.

when religion does that for me, i will do the same with it.

[Bellator Manus]

it is not a logical answer because that is redundant, isn't the entire purpose of church and religion to "worship" or to "gain followers" therfore he could save billions of dollars, and hours and effort by simply sayinh "look up" sounds like hes being a dick if you ask me. is phsycology not a form of science in its own way? its a medical science. Psychology seems to be more straight foeward and credible. where as theology is filled with cryptic conveniences.

i have been taking a hard look at my views, as well as other peoples views. its not so much a wall of ignorance, but a thirst for knowladge and the ability to think reasonably and use inductive reasoning. when i am provided with an answer that makes sense to me, reguardless of the topic, i accept it, dissect it, and move on to the next question.

when religion does that for me, i will do the same with it.
[/quote]No, the purpose of the church is to fellowship. People can worship, pray, or evangilize when their on their own. Some people decide to do that in church, too, which is no problem, that's still a form of fellowship if you like to do it with others.
Why should hours or dollars matter to one who creates them? That's like telling someone he could use less sand on the beach if he didn it another way.
Psychology is a science yes, but theology is a science, too (notive the "-ology"s). They are both more of thinking sciences though. A psychologist uses what he observes in humans. A theologist uses what he observes in the Bible (recorded accounts of God's actions and words), and some of what God does today (He does do stuff).
Also, I would like you to educate me. I want to know the answers that are cryptic convienences. I want to know why religon hasn't done for you want other sciences have. Can you teach them to me?



Reply to Infrazael:
There are 6 or 7 billion people do not believe you exist. Now, by the sheer mass of the other peoples beliefs, you do not exist . . .

I am very glad reality does not depend on us.

[tekkengod]

the bible is FULL of cryptic conveniences, read it. and then when we come up with a question, or a new way of looking at what was stated. they counter with "well thats not what it meant" feel free to show me what god does today. oh wait, there was that tsunami and that tornado that killed an untold # of people, good positive effects.
i mean if god is omnipitent and a spooky father figure, then he could do that right? {kid with a magnifying glass}
heres an example of what i mean with the cryptic conveniences.

a few days ago a brought up the fact that jesus bold faced lied. {i'll give you the exact passage and what not when i go back to the site later when i have time}
he said, "you who stand before me, you need not fear, for i shall return before your time here is up" he was talking about the 2nd coming.

well, i think thats rather odd considering the fact that they are all DEAD!!! {the 9 people he was speaking to}

and then a few of the religious people said "well, he was talking about the human race" :rolleyes: cut the bull crap. give it a rest, your god lied to them, to their faces. accept it.
the site is www.skepticscorner.com but you'll probably have to google it to get to it, thats the only way it'll load.

[kiaiki]

Anton's Satanic Bible has been knocking about for decades - invented by him I guess to satisfy a post- Crowley thirst for Satan in the USA. I surmise he made a pretty healthy living from it - good marketing by the dark man with a pointy beard.

Any true Pagan winces and laughs at the same time. To believe in Satan you must have a belief in Judaeo-Christian theology. They invented the Satan/Lucifer figure.

As a Buddhist and Pagan I do not accept the Christian Satan to fear or to worship. In my mind Satan has no power - the figure was simply invented by Christians to scare mediaeval peasants into the worship of their God by denigrating the nature deities of the past.

Not to dwell on it, but I can't imagine how many times the threat of hell fires have been used to make people conform to the Christian discipline. A bogey-man is very useful sometimes....

However, evil has power over the mind, however we seek to define it:

I would urge anyone to ignore both the la Vey nonsense AND the damnation of the Christian Church which the Satanists feed off - IMHO both are silly and both need each other to survive.

Without a Satan figure of 'evil', the Christian Church would have to move away from fear and use love as its driving force........ not a bad result, eh? :)

[AZeitung]

Obviously, you know nothing about either satanism or Christianity. First of all, fear is not the driving force in Christianity. It's love. You may think otherwise, but I think if you polled Christians, you would find that they agree with me on this and have very little fear (Satan shouldn't really be feared anyway, because of God and the sacrafice of Jesus). You can argue that fear is the driving force in Christianity, even if Christians don't believe that, but that doesn't make any sense.

Second of all, as has been pointed out many times on this thread, Satanism doesn't even really acknowledge the existence of an entity called Satan, or anything supernatural to any significant degree. It's called Satanism mainly to shock Christians and because they feel that their values are somewhat embodied in the Christian image of Satan.

[tekkengod]

fear is not the driving force in Christianity. It's love.

*WHISTLE*

stop the play, BS in motion. *throws BS flag*

redo, 3rd down, :cool:

i'm throwing the BS flag here, big time.

you have no idea how many hundreds of people tried to scare me out of an atheist mindset. even my really religious friends say stuff like
"you'll go to hell" and "i'd hate for it to be too late" stuff like that. clearly implying that they fear satan and worship out of fear of going to hell and others going to hell. not love of god.

[WatchfulAbyss]

wrote by AZeitung
Obviously, you know nothing about either satanism or Christianity. First of all, fear is not the driving force in Christianity. It's love. You may think otherwise, but I think if you polled Christians, you would find that they agree with me on this and have very little fear (Satan shouldn't really be feared anyway, because of God and the sacrafice of Jesus). You can argue that fear is the driving force in Christianity, even if Christians don't believe that, but that doesn't make any sense.

I think the thought of fear being a driving force, comes from the whole "believe as I do, or you will go to hell" that is clearly pulling at least on some levels on the fear of being punished. But, you are right, if someone polled the christians, they would disagree, just keep in mind that if in turn you polled cannibals, they would not see eating other humans as wrong. My point is, it would be hard to just take the word of those that except and maybe even employ those scare tactics. In order for that polle to hold any meaning, it would have to be given to only those that have no biased to either side, not to the people that are involved with the religion.

On the other hand, there is alot of love within the religion, I can see that even though I don't follow that faith. I feel both feelings play a big role within that religion, but that is just my opinion.

[AZeitung]

I think the thought of fear being a driving force, comes from the whole "believe as I do, or you will go to hell" that is clearly pulling at least on some levels on the fear of being punished. But, you are right, if someone polled the christians, they would disagree, just keep in mind that if in turn you polled cannibals, they would not see eating other humans as wrong.

That's a very meaningless analogy. I think people can tell whether they're afraid or not.

[WatchfulAbyss]

That's a very meaningless analogy. I think people can tell whether they're afraid or not.

No, it has nothing to do with rather or not the group is afraid, it is about rather or not they use fear to induct people into the group. The group is not the subject of the fear, they have nothing to fear, they are going to heaven, it is the outsiders that are subject to the tactics.

The analogy works in the context it was meant, the cannibal group is ok with eating people, it is the outsiders that find it wrong. (and possible the food.) The christians aren't afraid becouse they aren't the ones that are going to hell, again it is the outsiders that the fear is used on. If you polle either group, they will deny what has been put forth against them, that is becouse they are not the subject of the feelings. That is why the pole wouldn't hold any meaning, unless, you polled people that had no biased towards the subject, they could analyze it and go on the info put forth not a preconceived opinion.

[tekkengod]

The group is not the subject of the fear, they have nothing to fear, they are going to heaven, it is the outsiders that are subject to the tactics.

:rolleyes:
thats a sad fantasy and an even sadder truth.

[WatchfulAbyss]

thats a sad fantasy and an even sadder truth.


Are you saying it's a sad fantasy on my part? Becouse, I am not for religion or against it at this point, just saying what I see is all. It may just be me interpreting the meaning of the smiley the wrong way.

[Banpen Fugyo]

All I know is this has become a fun thread. I enjoy reading it from the virtual shadows.

Please continue.

[Infrazael]

Reply to Infrazael:
There are 6 or 7 billion people do not believe you exist. Now, by the sheer mass of the other peoples beliefs, you do not exist . . .

I am very glad reality does not depend on us.

I am glad you replied without dwelving into the Arts at all.

The majority of people don't even believe that one is able to alter reality. I think you're one of them.

Thus, even if you "believe" I don't exist, your so-called level of "belief" or "Will" is still so weak from lack of constant practice and perfection, of a continuous honing of your Will.

It takes FAR MORE than one's mere "belief" to change the probability of something.

There are actually several equations created by Magickians to try to explain the machinations of manipulating the aether/chaos, and how it affects reality.

Peter Carroll outlines chaos magick theory in a precise (and pedantic) fashion in Liber Kaos, with several magical formulas. I like these formulas for their simplicity and the obvious absence of any extraneous forces, but then I'm an atheist magician. I've included them here so that the reader can get a taste of the underlying theory. A far better explanation of these formula comes from the author himself.

M = G x L(1-A)(1-R)

Pm = P - P x M 1/(1/-p)

All factors are between 0 and 1.

M equals the force of your magic. Which is dependent upon your G (Gnosis) and L (magical Link) multiplied by two negative factors. (Things working against you). Your conscious awareness of the desired result (1-A) and your subconscious resistance to doing magic (1-R) -i.e. "Mommy told me magick doesn't work."

In the other formula, P equals the chance the event you desire occurs by itself; (1/(1/-p)) equals the chance that the result you desire will not occur. Pm equals the combination of the Probability that the event will occur combined with your magical effort to make it occur.

So we're really looking at the two steps of magical activity. The first step is "How good was my magical act?" The second step is "Did it work?" These formula have the nice component of including the rather random nature of the universe. For example, you do a really good magical rite.

Absolutely great. However, it was to make the your High School Principle disappear in a big "poof!" on graduation day. As your High School Principle is not in the habit of going "poof!" this event has a ridiculously low probability of occurring naturally, thus dragging down significantly (but not eliminating) the probability of him going "poof!" during graduation.

Regarding the first formula, to get a really good magical result you have to get M as close to 1 as possible. So the better the Gnosis and the stronger the Magical Link, the better. The factors of conscious awareness (1-A) and subconscious resistance (1-R) are factors which must be reduced or brought closer to 0.

As anyone who does magick knows, it is not hard to get a good magical link, if you want something bad enough, odds are you are close enough to get a piece or representation of it. As many chaos magicians know, it is also fairly easy to obtain a state of Gnosis. So these bases are covered. What separates the "men from the boys" are the negative side of the equation. Chaos Magicians are aware of the annoying fact that a lot of things will come to be a long time AFTER we have desired them to be. Conscious Awareness hit 0 and the event occurred. How often have you heard anyone, not just a magician say, "It happened when I least expected it", or, "I had completely forgotten about it, then it happened." No lust for result anymore, objective manifests.

Subconscious resistance is a factor which vanishes with time and success. The more magick you do, the better your results; the smaller this factor becomes. More experienced magicians simply get better results more frequently. They BELIEVE in themselves and that contributes to their success. The same factor comes into play for faith healers – they and the patient BELIEVE that the patient will be healed and thus, it happens.

The second formula brings the capricious nature of the universe into play. Lets face it, we want something bad to happen to someone and it happens. Now, did it happen because we cursed them or did it happen because they finally pissed off one person too many and someone in a bar took a swing at them?

This question should remain an academic one for the novice chaos magician. He should take credit whenever possible. Not in order to build up an inflated ego, but in order to get into the habit of thinking "Heh, I did that!" Slowly wearing down that factor of subconscious resistance in the first formula. With time, and in an effort to stave off megalomania, the more experienced magician should ask themselves, "Did I do that or did it occur by chance?"

The most experienced magicians realize, in my opinion, that magical results are usually a combination of chance and magick. Accepting that things just sometimes happen, but that the magician may also be playing a part, keeps the mind balanced and the goals of the magician reasonable.



Something, perhaps, too difficult for most people to comprehend???

[kiaiki]

Obviously, you know nothing about either satanism or Christianity. First of all, fear is not the driving force in Christianity. It's love. You may think otherwise, but I think if you polled Christians, you would find that they agree with me on this and have very little fear (Satan shouldn't really be feared anyway, because of God and the sacrafice of Jesus). You can argue that fear is the driving force in Christianity, even if Christians don't believe that, but that doesn't make any sense.

Second of all, as has been pointed out many times on this thread, Satanism doesn't even really acknowledge the existence of an entity called Satan, or anything supernatural to any significant degree. It's called Satanism mainly to shock Christians and because they feel that their values are somewhat embodied in the Christian image of Satan.

iT'S SO NICE TO KNOW THAT SOMEONE WHO IS SO PRO-CHRISTIAN LOVE INSULTS ME ON THE FIRST REPLY!

I have studied comparative religion for over 4 decades and have many texts from the Golden Dawn, OTO etc as well as all the mainstream organised religions. However, I am sure you are infinitely more qualified, better read and have your God's blessing to diss anyone who offers a different view.

Ultimately I decided that for me the best blend of natural, magical and theological religions may be found in Tibetan Mahayana Buddhism - itself the main root of Blavatsky's Theosophical Society, which then spawned the Golden Dawn, OTO and, in turn, most of the so-called modern 'Satanist' and Pagan movement which currently is part of the plethora of groups which fill the spiritual left once we peasants learned to read and not to fear the Christian God in the west. Of course, I also give shared credit for modern satanism/paganism to the Wiccan and Druidic traditions, but none to all the tosh invented to excite the gullible in the last couple of centuries by a succession of people like la Vey - and yes I do own a copy of his 'Bible'.

Maybe love is now the driving force of modern Christians - don't all religions lay claim to that? I see little love in Northern Ireland or in President Bush or in a Pope who presided over huge numbers of paedophiles etc. All CLAIM to be Christian - don't think Jesus would endorse any of them, myself! (IMHO). However, I have found little to worry me in the conduct of Pagan or self-styled Satanic groups here in the UK. They seem very much to do what they want without harming others - i.e. live by their creed. Maybe because they do not yet have exposure to the amount of power which corrupts the values of the more institutionalised religions. I'm OK with your assertion that love IS the driving force of CHRISTIANITY - I just see very little evidence of it as the driving force of any established church.

[tekkengod]

Are you saying it's a sad fantasy on my part? Becouse, I am not for religion or against it at this point, just saying what I see is all. It may just be me interpreting the meaning of the smiley the wrong way.

no no no blind.

i was saying the reality of religion is sad.

[AZeitung]

iT'S SO NICE TO KNOW THAT SOMEONE WHO IS SO PRO-CHRISTIAN LOVE INSULTS ME ON THE FIRST REPLY!


There's no need to shout - seriously, this is the type of thing that lends to "insults". I wasn't trying to insult you, merely pointing out something that you have still given me no reason to change my mind about.


I have studied comparative religion for over 4 decades and have many texts from the Golden Dawn, OTO etc as well as all the mainstream organised religions. However, I am sure you are infinitely more qualified, better read and have your God's blessing to diss anyone who offers a different view.


When you're making claims about people in the Christian church, yes I am much more qualified than you. Also, your claims about Satanism were way off the mark, so if that's any indicator, I wouldn't really trust your views on any other religion. And considering that I've been a Christian my whole life, that gives me 20 years of studying just Christianity regardless of whatever you've been comparing it to in your studies.

The fact that you're jumping all over me and making claims like I think I have "God's blessing" in my views leads me to believe that you're prone to jumping to conclusions when studying Christianity. I never made any claims about God's views, or his blessing, and yet you somehow percieved statements of self-rightousness, infallability, and connection to God in my claims. If that's the kind of bias you bring to your "studies", I have no reason to trust a thing you say.

[Infrazael]

iT'S SO NICE TO KNOW THAT SOMEONE WHO IS SO PRO-CHRISTIAN LOVE INSULTS ME ON THE FIRST REPLY!

I have studied comparative religion for over 4 decades and have many texts from the Golden Dawn, OTO etc as well as all the mainstream organised religions. However, I am sure you are infinitely more qualified, better read and have your God's blessing to diss anyone who offers a different view.

Ultimately I decided that for me the best blend of natural, magical and theological religions may be found in Tibetan Mahayana Buddhism - itself the main root of Blavatsky's Theosophical Society, which then spawned the Golden Dawn, OTO and, in turn, most of the so-called modern 'Satanist' and Pagan movement which currently is part of the plethora of groups which fill the spiritual left once we peasants learned to read and not to fear the Christian God in the west. Of course, I also give shared credit for modern satanism/paganism to the Wiccan and Druidic traditions, but none to all the tosh invented to excite the gullible in the last couple of centuries by a succession of people like la Vey - and yes I do own a copy of his 'Bible'.

Maybe love is now the driving force of modern Christians - don't all religions lay claim to that? I see little love in Northern Ireland or in President Bush or in a Pope who presided over huge numbers of paedophiles etc. All CLAIM to be Christian - don't think Jesus would endorse any of them, myself! (IMHO). However, I have found little to worry me in the conduct of Pagan or self-styled Satanic groups here in the UK. They seem very much to do what they want without harming others - i.e. live by their creed. Maybe because they do not yet have exposure to the amount of power which corrupts the values of the more institutionalised religions. I'm OK with your assertion that love IS the driving force of CHRISTIANITY - I just see very little evidence of it as the driving force of any established church.

Have you studied the works of Austin Osman Spare??? They are very intersting, and play a huge part in typical Chaosism (Death Postures; Sigils etc).

[WatchfulAbyss]

tekkengod wrote-
no no no blind.

i was saying the reality of religion is sad.

Lol, sorry about that, I just took it the wrong way, sometimes it is easy to misunderstand on forums, basicly just ignore me, sometimes I am a little to quick to jump to the wrong meaning.

[kiaiki]

Have you studied the works of Austin Osman Spare??? They are very intersting, and play a huge part in typical Chaosism (Death Postures; Sigils etc).

I've seen some of his work allied to Crowley, especially illustrations. Was it his Book of Pleasures you meant? Long time since I've seen it but I recall it was a stimulating change from Crowley's work. I went spinning off down a different path many years ago - into the mantras, mandalas and tantras - plenty of sigils in there, too! :)


AZeitung:
There's still a huge gulf of misunderstanding between us - I'm still not sure which of us contributes most to it but I doubt it would ever be bridged. Remember, you claimed Christians, if polled, would support your view - a pretty huge claim unless you indeed have your God on side, but apologies if you think I was having a pop at your God. I wasn't, just you arrogance in accusing me of knowing nothing and whilst you knew the totality of Christian thought. Hmmm.

To deal with your latest accusation of my defective thinking:
I was not aware that there was a 'correct' view on Satanism for me to contradict or to be 'wrong' about! Satanism, like Paganism, has no oppressive powerful institutionalised Church to force dogma down our throats. I speak as one who has practised as a pagan for as long as the modern term has been bandied about in connection with Wicca and nature based spirituality. Buddhism is in total synergy with pagan practice IMHO.

I'm 51 and have been studying widely for over 34 years, since I first came acros the Theosophical Society at 17 - although I had dabbled a bit before then. (If I read your view correctly I should have restricted myself to a single religion in order to discuss it intelligently. Your own experience seems to be the opposite extreme, showing a lack of contextual analysis from which to form a view.)

As your MAP profile claims you are 20 (born 1985) and you also claim 20 years of Christian study I can only bow in awe before you as such a child prodigy. May your God go with you wherever you are headed. :)

[AZeitung]

Well, you've been involved in comparative religious studies since the age of 10, so don't sound so surprised. The correct view of Satanism, as far as I can see, doesn't acknowledge the existence of an actual being called satan. Or are you denying that satanism has any set of beliefs whatsoever? If not, what classifies it as a "thing"? A religion with no specific set of beliefs isn't a religion. Everybody in the world would fall into that catagory and there would be no way not to.

edit: your last claim was comparative religious studies for 40 years, hence the "age of 10" comment.

And to study what people in a religion believe, it helps to be around them and talk to them, or better yet, be one of them. Any Christian is more capable of telling you how Christians feel about a topic than a non Christian, because by definition, their answer is correct.

I don't think you're understanding what I've been saying.

e.g.

Someone: Christians are afraid of hell and satan.
Christians: No, we're not.
Someone: Yes, yes you are.
Christians: No, we're not.
Someone: I've been studying religion my whole life. You think you no better than me?
Christians: We know we're not afraid.
Someon: So arrogant to think you know better than me.

[kiaiki]

No, you can't speak for all Christians. Even the Pope can't do that as even he has no idea what most of them think without a huge survey on every issue. That's just silly. You may have a better idea of the views of some, but exaggeration spoils the case.

Where do you get this view of a set of 'correct' satanic beliefs? Christians, Buddhists and Moslems get theirs from records (however poor) of the founders' words and actions. As there is only an evolutionary stanist and pagan movement, of course there is a huge variety of pick and mix paths. It may shake down into a smaller number of groups with isntitutional values, but not yet, surely? Evidence of 'correct' satanic views and the source of this authority?

I was in Sunday School at 10 and reading Huxley and Crowley's stuff at that time, but you're right - I don't claim the Sunday School as serious study, just study. My real interest wa sparked by the TS. Now, what was being read to you in your cot?

Only kidding. I'm not bothered enough to get into a one legged arse kicking competition...:)

[AZeitung]

I'll come back to this later. I have quantum mechanics homework due in two hours and this isn't getting it done any faster.

[kiaiki]

OK. Reread my last edit of last posting. Enjoy....

[AZeitung]

No, you can't speak for all Christians. Even the Pope can't do that as even he has no idea what most of them think without a huge survey on every issue. That's just silly. You may have a better idea of the views of some, but exaggeration spoils the case.


No, what is ridiculous is thinking that none of the members of a religious body are qualified to say what the members of that body think. If you're trying to be some kind of new age, politically correct thinker that has to define things by every possible beilef that every possible member could have, then we're not going to get anywhere. That's not possible for anything. What we can settle for is an expectation value. The expectation value for fear of hell and satan among Christians is <<1. I know this from experience.


Where do you get this view of a set of 'correct' satanic beliefs? Christians, Buddhists and Moslems get theirs from records (however poor) of the founders' words and actions. As there is only an evolutionary stanist and pagan movement, of course there is a huge variety of pick and mix paths. It may shake down into a smaller number of groups with isntitutional values, but not yet, surely? Evidence of 'correct' satanic views and the source of this authority?


The correct views are the ones inteded by its founder. There's no need to purposely make this conversation ambiguous. All we have to do is define Satanism, which LaVay did for us. If you want to say that satanism has evolved into something completely different, first of all, we should call it something completely different, then, as this will avoid a lot of confusion (how about Satanism 1 and Satanism 2). And second of all, the opinion that there is no actual being called satan seems to be the view expressed in the article posted to the forum, by the members of this forum, and what I've heard followers on TV say. We don't need to try to squeeze in beliefs that a few people may or may not have when we already have a clearly defined religion by a clearly defined founder who clearly defined his beliefs.

[kiaiki]

'The expectation value for fear of hell and satan among Christians is <<1. I know this from experience.'
Ah, research conducted on.... yourself. OK.
Sorry, but another pretty meaningless bit of evidence for your claim to know the Christian view. Please simply state your own view - there is no need to weaken it through this exaggeration.

'The correct views are the ones inteded by its founder. '
If you mean Anton la Vey, he is not the founder of Satanism and invented nothing of great importance except for members of his own movement IMHO.

He did a good job synthesising some of the writings which had gone before him, e.g. the rituals in 'The Satanic Rituals', and to try to cobble together something more sensational, riding on the wave of a post-hippie interest in the occult in the USA. Good businessman, little more IMHO.

He no more invented Satanism than you or I so his definitions are his own, no more. Yes, the original post on this thread was examining la Vey's views but you are surely not claiming him as the founder of an entire religion - a church, maybe.

To quote him from the intro to the Satanic Rituals:
'Why does the scientist.......mouth platitiudes of Christian righteousness in one breath, while dismissing the concept of Satan in the next..'
This could be a description of your posts, IMHO. I can't see that in this statement he is saying that Satan does not exist, can you? I'm glad to see you are moving away from defining this view as being that of Satanism and agree that your idea is formed from TV and posts on this thead - why not just say that it is your own view? It is plainly not that of la Vey.

To quote him again:
'Historically, the word Satan did not have a villainous meaning before Christianity'.
Don't think la Vey was around then, so maybe he isn't a founder of very much at all? I could invent a Satanic church tomorrow - doesn't make my view as its founder into the view of all Satanists or that of Satanic religion as a whole..

I see where you are coming from, but my argument with you seems to be more that you spoil your case by exaggerating the status of la Vey and also that you know the Christian view better than some other people, making large claims but based pretty much on your own experience alone. I own up to my view as being based on nothing more than a bit of experience, study and thought. That's why I try to use 'IMHO' when giving a view.

Oh, and I'm not new age or PC - I'm too old for both!

The sixties were full of guys like la Vey (actually born as Howard Stanton Levey) with dramatic beards and black cloaks. Guess the name Howard didn't fit his passion and talent for drama and performance. Change your name, shave your head, buy a cloak and paint your house black - maybe he was the founder of Goth, too? In his case, he was just a bit more successful and enduring than most.

We still have a few down here in Glastonbury in the UK - a kind of mini-Californian hippy refuge mixing Druids, Pagans, Christians, Psychics and flying saucer enthusiasts and others - great fun! I guess they saw that a few eccentric geniuses dressed that way and though if they dressed up they too would become great. Orson Welles, Ming the Merciless, Nosferatu films and Salvador Dali have a lot to answer for! Funny clothes, hoods and hats do not make you spiritually powerful IMHO, although even the Pope and his priests seem to need to dress in archaic garb to impress their followers! :) :Angel:

[AZeitung]

'The expectation value for fear of hell and satan among Christians is <<1. I know this from experience.'
Ah, research conducted on.... yourself. OK.
Sorry, but another pretty meaningless bit of evidence for your claim to know the Christian view. Please simply state your own view - there is no need to weaken it through this exaggeration.


You're really being ridiculous on this issue. I know what they teach in every church I've ever been to, what the Christians I'm around all the time are like and what I believe. You're saying that there's no way that I, as a Christian could know how Christians feel about something. You're being extremely strange about this. You've also said that in essence, no Christian could know how Christians feel about something. Believe it or not, we do have a fairly well defined doctrine, (with some minor differences between the various branches), and I know I'm speaking for most Christians when I say that we don't live in fear of hell or Satan. No matter how much you want to believe otherwise, it simply isn't true - sorry. I think you have a particular view and are so convinced you're right that no matter how many Christians told you otherwise, you would somehow think that they're not qualified to describe Christian beliefs. Your position just doesn't make sense.


'The correct views are the ones inteded by its founder. '
If you mean Anton la Vey, he is not the founder of Satanism and invented nothing of great importance except for members of his own movement IMHO.


Who said it was anything important? It doesn't matter what it is. We have an institution that LaVey created called Satanism. It doesn't matter what it is, how important it is, or if anybody likes it. It is still defined, and we can use that definition.


He did a good job synthesising some of the writings which had gone before him, e.g. the rituals in 'The Satanic Rituals', and to try to cobble together something more sensational, riding on the wave of a post-hippie interest in the occult in the USA. Good businessman, little more IMHO.

He no more invented Satanism than you or I so his definitions are his own, no more. Yes, the original post on this thread was examining la Vey's views but you are surely not claiming him as the founder of an entire religion - a church, maybe.


Well, the satanism being discussed in this thread is the one that LaVey put together, whether or not there was anything before or since you have to admit that *he* had a specific set of beliefs that he put into *his* satanism. Any other forms, for the purposes of this discussion, are irrelevant. We are specifically talking about LaVay, and you specifically mentioned him in your first post.


To quote him from the intro to the Satanic Rituals:
'Why does the scientist.......mouth platitiudes of Christian righteousness in one breath, while dismissing the concept of Satan in the next..'
This could be a description of your posts, IMHO. I can't see that in this statement he is saying that Satan does not exist, can you? I'm glad to see you are moving away from defining this view as being that of Satanism and agree that your idea is formed from TV and posts on this thead - why not just say that it is your own view? It is plainly not that of la Vey.


TV - it was specifically said by followers of his religion on the history channel. I would trust what a follower of the religion, who interacts with other followers who know LaVey's beliefs more than someone who read a couple of pages then decided to pull a quote out of context and make that the defining aspect of the religion when there are so many other things written to the contrary.

As for people on the forum - keep in mind that you're one of them, too. If I shouldn't shape opinions based on what people on this forum say, I shouldn't base opinions on what you say.


To quote him again:
'Historically, the word Satan did not have a villainous meaning before Christianity'.
Don't think la Vey was around then, so maybe he isn't a founder of very much at all? I could invent a Satanic church tomorrow - doesn't make my view as its founder into the view of all Satanists or that of Satanic religion as a whole..


You could invent a whole new satanic church tomorrow, but we would still be discussing LaVey, so it doesn't matter. We are talking about LaVey and his Satanism. You specifically mentioned his name in your first post on the subject. This thread was specifically about his satanism. No other form is relevant to the discussion.


I see where you are coming from, but my argument with you seems to be more that you spoil your case by exaggerating the status of la Vey and also that you know the Christian view better than some other people, making large claims but based pretty much on your own experience alone. I own up to my view as being based on nothing more than a bit of experience, study and thought. That's why I try to use 'IMHO' when giving a view.


I know the Christian view better than you, apparrently. If you actually go to church, you get to he first hand what Christians are learning about Christianity. You also get to talk to other Christians. If you join an organization like the knights of columbus, you hear even more about the religion's beliefs.

Do you want to do a poll of Christians on this forum? It wouldn't be a huge sample, but I'm sure it's fairly random. Let's start with the obvious ones - Kinjiro Tsukasa, AikiMac, MegK, CaptAnn, ATF (I think that's his handle), and myself. I can say with pretty good confidence that none of us are motivated by fear of hell and satan.


Oh, and I'm not new age or PC - I'm too old for both!

The sixties were full of guys like la Vey (actually born as Howard Stanton Levey) with dramatic beards and black cloaks. Guess the name Howard didn't fit his passion and talent for drama and performance. Change your name, shave your head, buy a cloak and paint your house black - maybe he was the founder of Goth, too? In his case, he was just a bit more successful and enduring than most.


None of this matters. I'm a Christian, so I don't like the idea of Satanism (and not just because of the word "Satan" in it). But that doesn't matter. We were supposed to be arguing about whether or not La Vey's satanism teaches that there is an actual figure named "satan" that they should worship. It doesn't matter why he created the religion, howm many followers there are, whether or not it's a good way to live, whether or not there was any form of satanism before, or whether or not you or I like the religion. The only thing that matters is whether La Vey believed in an actual being called satan and formed to religion to worship him or not.

edit: Back to the idea of Christians being motivated by fear of hell/satan and not love - I could list the names of a bunch of Christians I know, none of which are motivated by fear of hell/satan. I'm a Catholic, and I could give you documents that state the church's official position on this (various generally supports my viewpoint, even saying that we should be motivated from love of God and not fear of hell), I could tell you things that I've heard priests say (I've never once heard a priest tell people to be afriad of hell - I think that's more a protestant thing), I'm sure a bunch of people on this forum could give you testimonies, and I could site passages from the bible. But to you that would all be irrelevant.

I have never once met a Christian in my life who was a Christian because is was afraid of going to hell. Whether you want to believe it or not, I am qualified to tell you the overall mindset of Christians now. Whether it was different in the past, or whether there are some areas where this isn't true, or a few people here and there who feel differently, Christian teachings do not get people to fear hell or satan.

I don't know what incredible authority could have handed down the message to you that Christians are motivated out of fear of hell and satan it must be true, even if no Christian knows it.

[tekkengod]

AZ i think you really aren't giving him enough credit.

fear of hell is a HUGE motiving force in christianity.
some of the most religious people i've ever met will tell you this.

[AZeitung]

Would you care to give me names and the number of people, as well as what specifically they've said? Because the most religious people I know, including some extremely intellegent and well read priests (I think I've mentioned mnsgr Swetland on this board before - degrees in philosophy, theology, economics, physics, and more, as well as ex navy and temporary atheist in his teens. He's extremely well read on almost all theological and philosophical subjects) say otherwise. How many Christians on this board do you think would say they're motivated by fear? How many of the people that you talked to were actually afriad themselves? I want names to back up your claim, as well as specfic statements, because I can give them to back up mine.

[tekkengod]

James Springer-an aqaintanse of mine and preacher for the christian service at the on base church.he said "as long as you have god in your heart, you won't visit hell, and visiting hell is what should worry you"

Doug Konan-good friend of mine, insanely religious. he said "i'd hate for it to be too late. you should be in heaven, but if you don't accept christ, you'll go to hell. why do you think i go to church? haven't you been listening to what james was saying"

i don't think any of the christians will say they are motivated by fear, no one would admit that their entire belief system is based on fear. but i've seen them use it to gain memebers by trying to scare them into worship.

[silksword]

WTF is this? satinism or any evil for that matter is not the way of a martial artist. you are all fools. :bang: :bang: :woo:

[silksword]

I havent had enough time to read a lot of the Satanic bible, but the more I read it, the more I like it. Besides its obvious contradiction to Christianity, its actually very well worded.

Nine Satanic statements
I Satan represents indulgence, instead of abstinence!
-Is that evil? Since when is experiencing things bad?
II Satan represents vital existence, instead of spiritual pipe dreams!
-So 'he' represents the Self
III Satan represents undefiled wisdom, instead of hypocritical self-deceit!
-Self knowledge instead of following others...hmm
IV Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates!
-Kinda mean, but doesnt seem like a bad idea
V Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek!
-Dont necessarily agree with
VI Satan represents responsibility to the responsible, instead of concern for psychic vampires!
-Make sense
VII Satan represents man as just another animal, sometimes better, more often worse than those that walk on all fours, who, because of his "divine spiritual and intellectual development, has become the most vicious animal of all!
-Oh so very true, it seems satanism is quite "Natural"
VIII Satan represents all of the so-called sins, as they all lead to physical, mental, or emotional gratification!
-You only live once right?
IX Satan is the best friend the church has ever had, as he has kept it in business all these years!
-LOL, oh so true.

---------------------

Satanic Rules:
I Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.

II Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure that they want to hear them.

III When in another's lair, show him respect or else do not go there.

IV If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.

V Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.

VI Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the person and he cries out to be relieved.

VII Acknowledge the power of magic if you have used it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

VIII Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.

IX Do not harm little children.

X Do not kill non-human animals unless attacked or for your food.

XI When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.

Haha, I like that last one.
--------------
Satanic Sins:
For years, people have asked Church of Satan representatives, "Well, okay - your philosophy is based on indulgence of human instincts but do you have sins like any other religion?" Our answer has always been "No". But the time has come to amend that response. We have grown steadily over the past 21 years and find that it is appropriate to have some clear guidelines on, not only what we strive for,but also what we work to avoid - what we disapprove of. The difference is where other religions develop sins that people can't avoid, we consider a number of things "sinful" that people could avoid if they worked a little.

Stupidity -- The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid.

Pretentiousness -- Empty posturing can be most irritating and isn't applying the cardinal rules of Lesser Magic. On equal footing with stupidity for what keeps the money in circulation these days. Everyone's made to feel like a big shot, whether they can come up with the goods or not.

Solipsism -- Can be very dangerous for Satanists. Projecting your reactions, responses and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They won't. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of "Do unto others as they do unto you." It's work for most of us and requires constant vigilance lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point.

Self-deceit -- It's in the Nine Satanic Statements but deserves to be repeated here. Another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when it's fun, and with awareness. But then, it's not self-deceit!

Herd Conformity -- That's obvious from a Satanic stance. It's all right to conform toa person's wishes, if it ultimately benefits you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely instead of being enslaved by the whims of the many.

Lack of Perspective -- Again, this one can lead to a lot of pain for a Satanist. You must never lose sight of who and what you are, and what a threat you can be, by your very existence. We are making history right now, every day. Always keep the wider historical and social picture in mind. That is an important key to both Lesser and Greater Magic. See the patterns and fit things together as you want the pieces to fall into place. Do not be swayed by herd constraints -- know that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world.

Forgetfulness of Past Orthodoxies -- Be aware that this is one of the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something "new" and "different," when in reality it's something that was once widely accepted but is now presented in a new package. We are expected to rave about the genius of the "creator" and forget the original. This makes for a disposable society.

Counterproductive Pride -- That first word is important. Pride is great up to the point you begin to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The rule of Satanism is: if it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when you've painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, "I'm sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow," then do it.

Lack of Aesthetics -- This is the physical application of the Balance Factor. Aesthetics is important in Lesser Magic and should be cultivated. It is obvious that no one can collect any money off classical standards of beauty and form most of the time so they are discouraged in a consumer society, but "an eye" for for beauty, for balance, is an essential Satanic tool and must be applied for greatest magical effectiveness. It's not what's supposed to be pleasing -- it's what is. Aesthetics is a personal thing, reflective of one's own nature, but there are universally pleasing and harmonious configurations that should not be denied.
------------------------

Also, this isnt devil worshipping, as worshipping anything would be against satanistic teachings, and would just be an inverse of Christianity. Instead "satan" refers to anything you wish it to be. It seems that this religion is based on self knowledge and self awareness rather than "evil". In fact, a lot of makes sense. So whats so bad about these principles? Besides it going against your perfect Christian mindset? You can twist the principles of satanism for evil, but you can do that with any religion. It kinda represents freedom to me. Any thoughts?

And i swear to satan (haha) if i get a stupid post that says "because the bible says not to" or "god doesnt allow it" im gonna be really pissed. Plus it'll just prove satanism as a fallable religion even more. So come on you sheep, give it your best shot. :)



Views like this are for misguided weak minded individuals such as yourself.
i am not surprised you have been sucked into this foolish evil mindset.
it is people like you who make this world a filthy and putrid place.
if i hand an e- hand, i would smack the sh*t out of you.

[silksword]

looks like someone has had too much sunday school. hence their hate for christianity.
im no christian. but i stil think you are all dumbass misguided youths, that is all. martial arts were created to destroy people like you. enough people in this world suffer due to selfishness indulgance and whatever else you have stated, examples of people like this? hitler, stalin, any communist leader,
why add to the suffering of the world? innocent lives are affected, thousands of innocent men women and children have suffered and died for no reason whatsoever, and what causes this? think about it, take a wild guess.
very very very very misled.

[inteq9]

It's a mistake to follow any religion blindly. You guys need to chill out. If you can't accept anything from any religion except the one you practice and apply it to yourself in a positive way you are closed minded, simple and plain. Take your eyes off your books and look in the mirror.

[silksword]

sorry about the self righteous apply. just bothered me a little. i dont think its cool to spread stuff like this, especially on a martial arts themed forum. go somewhere else with that.

[davethekodiak]

dude, you make good points, but this is a religion forum, let them talk it out, they will come to what ever truth they are looking for :D

[silksword]

i cant just stand by and let it happen, if not for them, then for the people that they will end up hurting, or influencing others to hurt.

[davethekodiak]

ok

[tekkengod]

WTF is this? satinism or any evil for that matter is not the way of a martial artist. you are all fools. :bang: :bang: :woo:


satanisim is not evil!!!! its not acknowladging the devil or any of the pesudo religious crap.

its telling you to enjoy life and worry about yourself. thats the way it should be, how in any way shape or form is it evil?

[tekkengod]

Views like this are for misguided weak minded individuals such as yourself.
i am not surprised you have been sucked into this foolish evil mindset.

how is he misguided? because he dosen't worship an invisable man who lives in the sky?

how is it evil, please tell me.

you are wrong, this is not a weak mindset, its a normal preserving mindset,
Religion is for the weak minded, all that i can see is that satanism promotes enjoying life and not having to rely on a religious crutch and leaving your life in the hands of a spooky father figure who would probably gives less than damn about any of us even it he existed.

[tekkengod]

i cant just stand by and let it happen, if not for them, then for the people that they will end up hurting, or influencing others to hurt.

i really should have put this all in one post, but the more i scroll down the more i see more crap.

how is this going to hurt anyone? because its evil? :rolleyes:
if everyone is looking out for themselves, than the ones who die/get hurt/injured.ect. obviously wern't looking out for themselves too well now where they?
i fully agree with inteq9.
"its a mistake to follow any religion blindly" and i believe that applies to ANY religion, not just christianity.

[davethekodiak]

welcome to the discussion TG :D

[tekkengod]

hehe.
you knew i'd be back in here eventually.

[davethekodiak]

this is a good one :D enjoy

[tekkengod]

i plan on it.

i can tell this new guy {silksword} is gonna be a lively one. looking foreward to a good debate ending with a "you're going to hell" cliche.

in case no one else has notice, i am a horrible evil atheist who is going to burn in hell for all eternity due to my many often and numrerous animal sacrafices that i do in the name of satanism {even though it says specifically don't kill it unless you plan to eat it.} and i praise Satan on a daily basis {even though it clearly states the it is not reffering to "satan" in that context} and all of this rational thinking i'm doing, that really earned me a spot in the pit. :rolleyes:

seriously, silksword and everyone else, come off it, satanism isn't evil and dosen't acknowladge the devil in any way shape or form.

[davethekodiak]

honest question... why is it called satanism if it doesnt acknowledge him? is it a coincidence

[kiaiki]

AZeitung - you exaggerate your case with huge claims and then pretend you did not make the statements. You, not I, claimed to know how 'Christians' think and never ever put anything forward as you own view.

This makes it look as though you have no confidence in your own view and need every statement to be pretending to be that of all 'Christians', then some, then just the ones you know, etc as your argument leaks onto the floor.

Same thing with Satanism: You claim to know the correct views of Satanism, then reduce that to la Vey's Satanism, then fail to come up with any evidence and moan when I do it for you. You offer no evidence of any valid source or research to reinforce your views, so why not simply start with 'IMHO'?

IMHO I really believe this desire to fall on you behind should lead you to try one-legged arse kicking as your new MA. Strangely, I can't be bothered to compete. Seems there are plenty of others now posting so I'll leave you to it.

Have fun all! :)

[davethekodiak]

heh heh, he said arse :D

[Banpen Fugyo]

Views like this are for misguided weak minded individuals such as yourself.
i am not surprised you have been sucked into this foolish evil mindset.
it is people like you who make this world a filthy and putrid place.
if i hand an e- hand, i would smack the sh*t out of you.

Yes, and why hasnt this guy been banned yet? Im not putting up with crap like this in my freaking thread, get the hell out.

[silksword]

siphus, and tekken god.

it is obvious that you are both young, misguided individuals seeking guidance in all the wrong places. very sad.

people who only look out for themselves are self centered. self centeredness causes suffering. if hitler werent so self centered, there wouldnt have been mass genocide on the jewish race.

you do not see how small moral ideas effect the community as a whole.

I really dont want to bother explaining anything to you, because i already know the extent of your ignorance. so i'll just say this.

im not a christian nor do i believe in hell or heaven or satan for that matter,
but the ideologies of what you are trying to spread, are not for the greater good of mankind, but for the greater good for yourself. Be thankful that not very many people are as stupid as you idiots to believe something as stupid as satanism. because if your parents had this mentality, you wouldve ended up in a dumpster after you were born.

wanna live a life of self centered indulgence? go ahead, sooner or later, it will all fall back on you, but i'll let you figure that out for yourself. just dont go posting nonsense like this on a forum where many young children come, seeking help and guidance, it is not right to expose people to those kind of teachings, for they are evil and if you cannot see that, then you are just plain ignorant, or have never suffered or seen someone you love suffer.

ive seen starving children, unfed because their parents are crackheads and they dont buy their children any food, they would rather be self centered, indulge, look out for themselves, buy crack, and in result, their child is suffering from starvation.

or the greedy self centerd governments of europe that ban african farmers from growing their own crops on their own land which they have been doing for generations, just so they could buy products instead.

the world is a horrible place, and to contribute to the evil already in unavoidable play, is foolish as well as evil. if you dont see that, you are just plain ignorant.

but i take it that you kids are spoiled, nurtured, supported by their parents, had everything handed to them on a silverplatter type of snot nosed brats who think that the world revolves around them, ignorant to all the maladies of the world. very typical. very stupid. very misled, very spoiled. if youre parents had the same beliefs as you, you would have probably been sold as a child for a car and 10 000 dollars, instead of being the nose picking spoiled ignorant brats you are today.

i suggest getting a life.

[Strafio]

Did you just talk about people being self-indulgent and ignorant?

If so, I know you don't believe in the guy and all, but God bless you. :)

[bcullen]

honest question... why is it called satanism if it doesnt acknowledge him? is it a coincidence
*sigh* I really didn't want to get into this but...

The term satan is hebrew meaning opposite or adversary it wasn't until much latter that it was used biblically. Dr. LaVey held the mystics, psychics and other elements of hippy culture so common in the late 60's (the actual founding time of the Church of Satan) with great distain. They practiced "magick" but only for "good" ect... He considered them to be dancing to the tune but not paying the piper. He believed in calling a spade, a spade; rather then whitewashing it with the language used. Satan to him was simply a dark motivating force of nature; the yang to the yin.

I should mention there are actually many factions in the religion, Dr. Aquino a former member of the Church of Satan formed a group called the Temple of Set and then there is ONA (Enough said). The theological differences can be as varied as any other religion. Let's leave it at that or we're inviting another "who has the one true way -- the darkiside version" arguement (trust me, let's not go there).

[silksword]

blessings to you too.

[tekkengod]

it is obvious that you are both young, misguided individuals seeking guidance in all the wrong places. very sad.

if hitler werent so self centered, there wouldnt have been mass genocide on the jewish race.

because i already know the extent of your ignorance.

are not for the greater good of mankind, Be thankful that not very many people are as stupid as you idiots to believe something as stupid as satanism. because if your parents had this mentality, you wouldve ended up in a dumpster after you were born.

then you are just plain ignorant, or have never suffered or seen someone you love suffer.

the world is a horrible place,

but i take it that you kids are spoiled, nurtured, supported by their parents, had everything handed to them on a silverplatter type of snot nosed brats who think that the world revolves around them

i suggest getting a life.

young, yes. misguided, no.
how the hell do you get off comparing me to hitler!?!?!? KC where the hell is that punch through PC patch? :woo:
Hitler was insane, mong other things, being self centered dosen't make you commit genocide. Stalin too. give it a rest, you've obviously run out of gas if stalin and hitler are your idea of self centered. stalin and hitler were insane, evil, and tacticians. you know nothing of me, you are the one showing your obvious ignorance. BTW, that bold sentence sounds an awful lot like a personal attack to both Siphus and myself MODS HELP! I'M BEING ATTACKED you don't know anything, i've seen plenty of people suffer through poverty and was ashamed there was nothing i could do but give a few meisly dollars. i've seen the effects of drugs and drug dealers on people and communities. i am BY NO MEANS spoiled, i've worked my ass off for every sinlge shread of improvement i've ever earned, worked for damn near every penny i've ever earned. we are an upper middle class family, due to my fathers hard work. nothing more, not rich, i'm not spoiled, nor is any one else in the family, but if we can afford a luxury, we get it. just like everyone else. i suggest YOU get a life!!!!! for someone who speaks as if being older, you don't offer much in the way of wisdom or intelligence. and yes, the only intelligent thing you have said, is that the world is a horrible place, some places are most certainly better than others, and i am fortuante to live in one of those places right now, but the world is getting worse, everyone is concerned with themselves first, others second, if you don't see that, then you should open your eyes and think outside what ever box you're in.

[silksword]

young, yes. misguided, no.
how the hell do you get off comparing me to hitler!?!?!? KC where the hell is that punch through PC patch? :woo:
Hitler was insane, mong other things, being self centered dosen't make you commit genocide. Stalin too. give it a rest, you've obviously run out of gas if stalin and hitler are your idea of self centered. stalin and hitler were insane, evil, and tacticians. you know nothing of me, you are the one showing your obvious ignorance. BTW, that bold sentence sounds an awful lot like a personal attack to both Siphus and myself MODS HELP! I'M BEING ATTACKED you don't know anything, i've seen plenty of people suffer through poverty and was ashamed there was nothing i could do but give a few meisly dollars. i've seen the effects of drugs and drug dealers on people and communities. i am BY NO MEANS spoiled, i've worked my ass off for every sinlge shread of improvement i've ever earned, worked for damn near every penny i've ever earned. we are an upper middle class family, due to my fathers hard work. nothing more, not rich, i'm not spoiled, nor is any one else in the family, but if we can afford a luxury, we get it. just like everyone else. i suggest YOU get a life!!!!! for someone who speaks as if being older, you don't offer much in the way of wisdom or intelligence. and yes, the only intelligent thing you have said, is that the world is a horrible place, some places are most certainly better than others, and i am fortuante to live in one of those places right now, but the world is getting worse, everyone is concerned with themselves first, others second, if you don't see that, then you should open your eyes and think outside what ever box you're in.


I have read your reply many times over.

i must say that it is from this sort of mentality that madmen like hitler and stalin are born. if you cannot see how seemingly small things like self centeredness greed and indulgence can lead to paramount destruction,
you will see someday as you grow, hopefully for the better.

do you not see how it is negative to think that way?

Why dont you ask your father, the hard working individual who supports you, He will understand how it is to think of others first and yourself second. think about it, to be nurturing, to love, is the complete anti thesis to self centeredness.

you will not last long in this world, if all you look out for is yourself. remember, its not the people that you love... its the people who love you that count.

i have yet to meet a person who can do it all by themselves.

[tekkengod]

Iits the people who love you that count.

i have yet to meet a person who can do it all by themselves.

that is a bunch of rubbish, counting on other people unless absolutely nessecary is a BAD idea, 9 times out 10, the people who "love" you will stab you in the back given the right insentive you should know that in all your grand wisdom.

you just haven't been looking hard enough, i know plenty of people who have done it all alone, plenty who plan on it and plenty who will.

you sound to me like a weak man with a need for an emotional crutch to sustain you. Love is a lie. the sooner you realize that, the better off you'll be.

[tekkengod]

just curious. what do you do for a living?

[Socrastein]

you sound to me like a weak man with a need for an emotional crutch to sustain you. Love is a lie. the sooner you realize that, the better off you'll be.

We all have our cruch. Perhaps yours is self-asserted intellectual superiority? Without it I hardly think you could feel so good about yourself as you must feel when you needlessly berate people like this.

[tekkengod]

true, but not EVERYONE has need for a crutch, especially an emotional one.
it wasn't needlessly, nor was it berate, it was me stating my opinion seeking a debate and him responding. and the last post was once again, my opinion, one which as you so well put, the evidence supports.

Please in the future use my full name when quoting me.

[Banpen Fugyo]

Silk,

First of all, dont call me anything again, especially since apparently you cant read well. In fact, in almost every other post i have made, even THE MAIN THREAD NAME, I never once said i was a satanist.

For another, where do you come up with your conclusions? If all your going to do is talk in blanketed statements like "satanism is evil, and if you cant see that your dumb", then you have no place in this thread, and no place in this forum for that matter. Your mind is obviously closed to other means of learning. If you think for one second that i'm young, OR misguided, your wrong. Not only that, but you obviously no nothing of hitler, stalin, satanism, philosophy, or any other theological information that your are basing your comments on. You have stated that satanism is evil? Explain. Sure, you might be right, but at least everyone else in this thread has added something instead of their obvious lack of understanding of the topic at hand. Should everyone in the whole world be satanistic? Hell no. Thats not even the view point of satanism. Satanist know that without christianity, there would be no satanism. So i ask you, if the whole world were christian, what would the outcome be? The same? Yin and Yang come to mind? Can your mind not grasp the concept of there being no dark without light, no black without white, no love without hate? These are opposing viewpoints, and obviously by stating that the ENTIRE SYSTEM OF SATANISM is evil, you are therefore inferring that you believe christianity is right. Are you not? If satanism envelops all of the evil you see in the world, then the exact opposite is the good way? Is that right to you? Can you have a good day without having bad ones? Take what you will from satanism and learn from it. Nobody said to worship the devil or to kill people. The ideas and ideals of any relgion and any source of anything should be learned, whether you want to believe them or not. You are siimply shutting the door to new ideas, obviously based on yoru own preconceived misconceptions. Feel free to bash things without knowledge all you want, this is exactly what being a sheep is all about.

[myki]

Christianity = love, understanding, compassion and belief in the teachings of Jesus. God, Son and Holy Spirit (AKA God’s energy) are paramount.

Buddhism = love, understanding, compassion and belief in the teachings of Buddha. The 3 jewels are paramount.

Satanism = belief in self and all you can do or accomplish. The principles and tenets as layed out by LeVay are paramount.

The only problem with these and other religions/philosophies are people!
How people perceive these is at the heart of the disagreements on this thread.

Example:
A believes in 1 but B believes in 2. They have conflict and argue as to who is right. Enter C who believes in 3. A and B can agree to gang up on C, or A and C on B and round and round we go.

Look deeply into your beliefs. Show me chapter and verse where it says YOU are definitively right and the other guy is definitively wrong. I don’t mean a quote that is open for interpretation, I mean word for word.

Oh, yes:

Kiaiki;
I noticed under your name you have “aikido-gentle DEVASTATION”
First this is a big time oxymoron as devastation has nothing to do with aikido. Second, why do you feel the need to capitalize DEVASTATION? To instill fear? The need to instill fear, comes from a fearful place. This kind of goes against what you proclaim when you say you follow a brand of Buddhism.

Silksword:
Calling everyone fools who don’t follow you line of thinking is closer to the Fascism which you accuse Tekkengod and Siphus.
Satanism is called Satanism for shock value, in the same vein you use Hitler and Stalin.
It is very apparent, from your posts, that you have no idea what you’re talking about and are writing from a place of fear and ignorance.
Hopefully you will have more to offer than calling people stupid and fools.

I have great faith in people. Whether they are right or wrong, they never fail to disappoint!

Cheers!

[Banpen Fugyo]

LOL

I love when people make sense.

[tekkengod]

Myki + Keyboard = :cool:

[tekkengod]

bout time you showed up Siphus, thought i was gonna have dispatch this clown on my own.

[myki]

Myki + Keyboard = :cool:

Thanks! :D

[tekkengod]

what are you talking about i mean My Ki, my Ki = keyboard. :D hehehe

[AZeitung]

I'm not even gone for two days, and look what happens here *sigh*

[silksword]

Oh, yes:

Kiaiki;
I noticed under your name you have “aikido-gentle DEVASTATION”
First this is a big time oxymoron as devastation has nothing to do with aikido. Second, why do you feel the need to capitalize DEVASTATION? To instill fear? The need to instill fear, comes from a fearful place. This kind of goes against what you proclaim when you say you follow a brand of Buddhism.

Silksword:
Calling everyone fools who don’t follow you line of thinking is closer to the Fascism which you accuse Tekkengod and Siphus.
Satanism is called Satanism for shock value, in the same vein you use Hitler and Stalin.
It is very apparent, from your posts, that you have no idea what you’re talking about and are writing from a place of fear and ignorance.
Hopefully you will have more to offer than calling people stupid and fools.

I have great faith in people. Whether they are right or wrong, they never fail to disappoint!

Cheers![/QUOTE]

please, just stfu.
:bang: :woo: i have decided to let you children be, on your little futile quest for knowledge, it is pointless to even go on. whatever... i could care less.

[AZeitung]

AZeitung - you exaggerate your case with huge claims and then pretend you did not make the statements. You, not I, claimed to know how 'Christians' think and never ever put anything forward as you own view.

This makes it look as though you have no confidence in your own view and need every statement to be pretending to be that of all 'Christians', then some, then just the ones you know, etc as your argument leaks onto the floor.


You're being absurd. Have you ever head of something called statistics? That's where the stement about expectation values comes from. I am free to assume that the Christians I have met represent a simple random sample of Christians in general. I have no reason to believe otherwise. I also know that documents the vatican has released, and things I've heard priests say in church represent the standard that is being taught to Catholics pretty much everywhere. I can with good confidence make the assumption that the standard deviation of belief in Christians I have met represents the standard deviation of belief of Christians in general. You're a fool if you believe any statistics can be gained that truly represent every single person on earth. I've certainly met enough Christians, and consistantly talk to enough Christians (and of course, am one myself) that there's a great deal of certainty in what I know about the religion. You are being ludicrous. Plain and simple.


Same thing with Satanism: You claim to know the correct views of Satanism, then reduce that to la Vey's Satanism, then fail to come up with any evidence and moan when I do it for you. You offer no evidence of any valid source or research to reinforce your views, so why not simply start with 'IMHO'?


We are talking about La Vay's Satanism. This thread has never been about anything else. You mentioned La Vey in your first post. There is no reason to drag anything else into it. We have to get this straight before we can move on. This thread has never been on any other form of Satanism. I don't see how you could gather anything different from the discussion.

I have been discussing Le Vay since the moment we were speaking. Do not accuse me of "reducing" anything.


IMHO I really believe this desire to fall on you behind should lead you to try one-legged arse kicking as your new MA. Strangely, I can't be bothered to compete. Seems there are plenty of others now posting so I'll leave you to it.

Have fun all! :)

I think this refusal to strictly define terms on your part has to do with you lacking education in any field that requires rigorous logical thought or where your answers could be empirically falsified and your methods measured up to a standard formalism. Since we're both done posting now, I'll just leave you with that.

edit: So that you might understand, even from your amathematical viewpoint, I prepared this image.

http://www.drakkonsoft.com/poll.JPG

[Banpen Fugyo]

please, just stfu.
:bang: :woo: i have decided to let you children be, on your little futile quest for knowledge, it is pointless to even go on. whatever... i could care less.

lol, I didnt think you'd have a mature response. Go! Continue with your blinders on! Run "free"!!!

[myki]

please, just stfu.
:bang: :woo: i have decided to let you children be, on your little futile quest for knowledge, it is pointless to even go on. whatever... i could care less.

STFU? So, when people don't side with you, you want them to keep quiet?

A better idea-one that you can actually control-would be, stop reading this thread. It's apparent you don't want to take part in a discussion and it is causing you alot of aggravation.

Another idea is switch to decaf!

Cheers!

[tekkengod]

or even better, get a life and some knowladge.

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

OK, I've been catching up on this thread, and silksword, you've been name-calling and bashing people right and left in this thread. Personal attacks are not allowed here at MAP (and neither is profanity).

While you spend three days in the Sin Bin, please re-read MAP's Terms of Service, here:

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/maprules.htm

[Infrazael]

Is it just me, or has this thread now degenerated into a bunch of Atheist vs. Christian conversations???

Or something like it.

Silk -- Tekken, please stop arguing with each other. It's not doing any good.

[myki]

Is it just me, or has this thread now degenerated into a bunch of Atheist vs. Christian conversations???

Or something like it.

Silk -- Tekken, please stop arguing with each other. It's not doing any good.

I don't think it's degenerated to the point of no return...yet. Most of the posters are giving good, reasoned opinions. (Key word!)

These are only people's opinions, not fact. I think where some run into trouble is taking "opinion" as gospel (as it were). It goes against there own belief system and anger takes over.

If anything, this thread teaches us more about ourselves, then any religion/philosophy.

What do you think?

[Infrazael]

I agree. Anger takes over, more often than not. I am truly glad that I've found a way out, most of the time.

That is, eveything is true, and nothing is true.

There is not POINT in being angry.

I do not try to preach to other people at all. I simply give them some food for thought.

[bcullen]

These are only people's opinions, not fact. I think where some run into trouble is taking "opinion" as gospel (as it were). It goes against there own belief system and anger takes over.

If anything, this thread teaches us more about ourselves, then any religion/philosophy.

What do you think?

Very much so. Part of Dr. LaVey's reasoning in choosing the name (Satanism) was in the power that it held. It's not necessarily "magical" in the traditional understanding but look at how much activity it has inspired here; the knee-jerk reactions and condemnation without trial. What goes through your mind when you hear it? Do you associate it with Anger, death, darkness, pestilence and other loathsome things? It is a very charged word, a powerful archetype.

You hear it and you're repulsed or intriguiged; why do you suppose that is? For the repulsed Satan is the seed of doubt, the begining of cognitive dissonance the "what if I'm wrong?". BLAM! The gates close, the walls go up all defense mechanisms in place. What about the intriguiged; a little titilation, excitment; like the accident on the side of the road, you know you shouldn't look but just can't help it.

It's less about denomination and theism and more about separation. Many popular religons ascribe to the Des Carte's divsion of spirit and substance (I think therfore I am) and the classical separation of man and God in theology. Satanists do not take the stance that the body is expendable and not important to development of the spirit nor do they see a separation between man and God (Satan); they do not use the concept of an externalized deity.

The ideas were culled from sources including Ayn Rand's objectivism, Nietzche, C.G. Jung, Somerset Maugham, Crowley, et al.

Jung has said that many never get past the shadow in the journey.

[Infrazael]

LeVay's Satanism is fine (at leaset the book/philosphical aspect, parts of it)

What I REALLY despise is the Black Mass.

[myki]

Very much so. Part of Dr. LaVey's reasoning in choosing the name (Satanism) was in the power that it held. It's not necessarily "magical" in the traditional understanding but look at how much activity it has inspired here; the knee-jerk reactions and condemnation without trial. What goes through your mind when you hear it? Do you associate it with Anger, death, darkness, pestilence and other loathsome things? It is a very charged word, a powerful archetype.

You hear it and you're repulsed or intriguiged; why do you suppose that is? For the repulsed Satan is the seed of doubt, the begining of cognitive dissonance the "what if I'm wrong?". BLAM! The gates close, the walls go up all defense mechanisms in place. What about the intriguiged; a little titilation, excitment; like the accident on the side of the road, you know you shouldn't look but just can't help it.

It's less about denomination and theism and more about separation. Many popular religons ascribe to the Des Carte's divsion of spirit and substance (I think therfore I am) and the classical separation of man and God in theology. Satanists do not take the stance that the body is expendable and not important to development of the spirit nor do they see a separation between man and God (Satan); they do not use the concept of an externalized deity.

The ideas were culled from sources including Ayn Rand's objectivism, Nietzche, C.G. Jung, Somerset Maugham, Crowley, et al.

Jung has said that many never get past the shadow in the journey.

That was very well said! I like Jung's quote.

[myki]

LeVay's Satanism is fine (at leaset the book/philosphical aspect, parts of it)

What I REALLY despise is the Black Mass.

What do you mean by "black mass"? Are you refering to the devil worshippers, vampires and all?

[Davey Bones]

"Black Mass" is a phrase used to describe certain types of rituals which involve descecration of Christian holy objects, recetation of the Mass backwards, blood rites, sex and general debauchery. There is also the occassionally rant about human or animal sacrifice, but I'm not going there.

[Infrazael]

Essentially an attempt to undermind Christianity through supposed rituals that are the "polar opposite" of the Church. However, the fundamental remains the same as in Christianity -- but instead of banishing Satan, they are banishing Jesus/God.

You see where I'm going? It's just "mass" but in a different way. Thus, it will lead to nothing more than being herded into the same category as dogmatic, fundamental religious institutions.

Thus, both are absurd, harmful, and pitiful acts.

[Camel_Kid]

It's about time someone reads it and doesn't get bludgeoned to death by large stones for saying, "hey, this isn't a bad book!"

The Satanic Bible is actually a very good read, but most christians won't give it a second glance, seeing as how, at first, it seems that it teaches you to sacrifice humans, drink blood, and commit crimes...

Satanism is not worshipping the Christian Satan... Seeing as how Satanism does not follow the Christian God, there can't possibly be any Satan to worship! There actually is no "Good and Evil" in Satanism... It is only called "Satanism" because it does not follow a God, but rather what most religions would call sins (i.e. acting upon one's animal instincts).

As for all the "Magic" noted in "The Satanic Bible," This all is pointing to high and low magicks, or Black and White magicks, or Wicca and Paganism... Chants, candles, altars, etc. Basically what you'd think of first-hand when you think of Satanism (without firstly reading Anton Szandor LaVey's book), but minus the human sacrifices and pure "evil."

Essentially an attempt to undermind Christianity through supposed rituals that are the "polar opposite" of the Church. However, the fundamental remains the same as in Christianity -- but instead of banishing Satan, they are banishing Jesus/God.

You see where I'm going? It's just "mass" but in a different way. Thus, it will lead to nothing more than being herded into the same category as dogmatic, fundamental religious institutions.

Thus, both are absurd, harmful, and pitiful acts.
Actually, the Satanic Bible encourages Satanists to practice their rituals alone, only a few of the bigger rituals are practiced with good friends. Also, there is no banishing of Jesus/God, since Satanism disavows both Jesus' divine being, and God himself as the one true god...



- Camel

[JayKayD]

Satanism is not worshipping the Christian Satan... Seeing as how Satanism does not follow the Christian God, there can't possibly be any Satan to worship! There actually is no "Good and Evil" in Satanism... It is only called "Satanism" because it does not follow a God, but rather what most religions would call sins (i.e. acting upon one's animal instincts)


- Camel

A lot of people have said this already but it bears reiterating. Satan is a Christian product. If Satanism isn't about Satan, why is it called Satanism? the reason you gave doesn't justify it being called Satanism. Satanism should be about Satan, no? Rape, murder and stealing are also sins but it doesn't encourage them. Thus, the conclusion most people came to is that its merely called Satanism to piss of Christians and to seem rebel-ish and 'cool'. Therefore making Anton Le Vay a tit.

[WatchfulAbyss]

A lot of people have said this already but it bears reiterating. Satan is a Christian product. If Satanism isn't about Satan, why is it called Satanism? the reason you gave doesn't justify it being called Satanism. Satanism should be about Satan, no? Rape, murder and stealing are also sins but it doesn't encourage them. Thus, the conclusion most people came to is that its merely called Satanism to piss of Christians and to seem rebel-ish and 'cool'. Therefore making Anton Le Vay a tit.


It is about what he represents, his nature, it is about self, Anton feels that satan best represents that.....

At least that is what I came up with from this site...http://baphomantislair.com/anton_laveys_view_on_satanism.htm

[Banpen Fugyo]

A lot of people have said this already but it bears reiterating. Satan is a Christian product. If Satanism isn't about Satan, why is it called Satanism? the reason you gave doesn't justify it being called Satanism. Satanism should be about Satan, no? Rape, murder and stealing are also sins but it doesn't encourage them. Thus, the conclusion most people came to is that its merely called Satanism to piss of Christians and to seem rebel-ish and 'cool'. Therefore making Anton Le Vay a tit.

Yeah dude, try actually reading his book or any material about it before coming up with your conclusion, eh?

[aikiMac]

AZ i think you really aren't giving him enough credit.

fear of hell is a HUGE motiving force in christianity.
some of the most religious people i've ever met will tell you this.
If fear of hell is a "huge motivating force" among people you talk to, then you're talking with immature Christians.
There, I said it.
Come on, are the gospel and epistles of John not in Texas Bibles? :eek:
God knows the difference between sincerity and insincerity. You can't fake it. This is akin to milk versus solid food. You're supposed to "grow up" eventually. You're supposed to get off the milk and start eating solid food eventually. You're eventually supposed to understand all of the terms "grace" and "love" and "mercy" and "justice" and "righteous" and "holy" and "atoning sacrifice," and not just selected terms.

[Infrazael]

Actually, the Satanic Bible encourages Satanists to practice their rituals alone, only a few of the bigger rituals are practiced with good friends. Also, there is no banishing of Jesus/God, since Satanism disavows both Jesus' divine being, and God himself as the one true god...

Yes, but there are always subsects of Satanism (LeVay's) that seeks to change those things.

One example is Diabolism, another is Setianism (of the Temple of Set).

[tekkengod]

If fear of hell is a "huge motivating force" among people you talk to, then you're talking with immature Christians.
There, I said it.
Come on, are the gospel and epistles of John not in Texas Bibles? :eek:
God knows the difference between sincerity and insincerity. You can't fake it. This is akin to milk versus solid food. You're supposed to "grow up" eventually. You're supposed to get off the milk and start eating solid food eventually. You're eventually supposed to understand all of the terms "grace" and "love" and "mercy" and "justice" and "righteous" and "holy" and "atoning sacrifice," and not just selected terms.

i see you point, but just becasue they don't agree with you they are immature? fear is as strong a driving force as love. they were very religious, one of them was even a preacher, and he said the same thing. the terms you listed may be a positive pro of it for you, but 90% of the people i've talked to said they didin't want to go to hell. I'd rather not be scared into believeing something. but thats just me.

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

i see you point, but just becasue they don't agree with you they are immature? fear is as strong a driving force as love. they were very religious, one of them was even a preacher, and he said the same thing. the terms you listed may be a positive pro of it for you, but 90% of the people i've talked to said they didin't want to go to hell.
I agree with aikiMac; Christians whose primary motivation for their belief is fear are immature Christians. That's not slamming them, by the way, it just means their faith isn't fully developed yet. Everybody has to start somewhere. They're immature in their faith not because they don't agree with aikiMac, but because the primary motivation should be love, but sometimes it takes a while to get there.

I'd rather not be scared into believeing something. but thats just me.
Me too; many of us respond much better to positive motivation rather than negative. :)

[Banpen Fugyo]

Actually, almost all the time when i speak of atheism around christians, there first response is: "Well fine, you can goto hell, but I'm not." Take that as you will.

[Infrazael]

I think the replies of this threads proves something:

Anytime when people disgree, there is warfare, albeit at differing degrees.

Can't we just get along? I would hate to see this tread devolve into Christian vs. Atheist thought.

Again, if that's what it all comes down to, then it proves my point perfectly.

[tekkengod]

Actually, almost all the time when i speak of atheism around christians, there first response is: "Well fine, you can goto hell, but I'm not." Take that as you will.

9 times out of 10 that is the exact response i get, and the 10th guy just drops his jaw and goes blank, those are usually the extreameists.