Religious Question sort of

[Hawks]

As a Martial Artist how do you come to terms with being religious and studying what is a violent art. Please dont give me that we dont train to fight stuff, at the end of the day we are learning how to hurt someone.It is never my intention to hurt someone but I have to be realistic enough to know that this is what I train, A Martial Art. I ask beacuse my wife believes the violence begets violence idea and I was curious what some other thoughts are.



Thanks Guys and Girls

[aikiMac]

Aikido is love.

[Scarlet Mist]

As a Martial Artist how do you come to terms with being religious and studying what is a violent art. Please dont give me that we dont train to fight stuff, at the end of the day we are learning how to hurt someone.It is never my intention to hurt someone but I have to be realistic enough to know that this is what I train, A Martial Art. I ask beacuse my wife believes the violence begets violence idea and I was curious what some other thoughts are.



Thanks Guys and Girls

What does being religious have to do with learning how to fight?

[b33p]

Martial arts does not encourage violence, it encourages you to self discipline yourself and to react according to the situation with the best intentions.. [well mine does anyway] :D
Martial arts is a more sensible and reliable way of fighting compared to being oblivious to what you must do in a fight and using your anger to anchor yourself into winning.. martial arts teaches you, that it is not winning that matters the most, but avoiding the fight.

[Hawks]

Aikido is love.


I understand that but... You slamming someone down on concrete that was trying to rob you isnt love. No one wants to hurt someone else but that IMO is the cold hard fact of what we learn how to hurt people. There is defintely more than that but it is an intrigle if not the largest part of what we learn.

[Hawks]

Martial arts does not encourage violence, it encourages you to self discipline yourself and to react according to the situation with the best intentions.. [well mine does anyway] :D
Martial arts is a more sensible and reliable way of fighting compared to being oblivious to what you must do in a fight and using your anger to anchor yourself into winning.. martial arts teaches you, that it is not winning that matters the most, but avoiding the fight.

Then you could just learn to be a great debater. You dont need to learn how to kick and punch to talk your way out of a fight. I understand the Larger concepts of the Martial Arts but at its base the Martial Arts teach Viloence.

[b33p]

Do you not learn holds to restrain the opponent, is that not avoiding violence?

[Omicron]

Then you could just learn to be a great debater. You dont need to learn how to kick and punch to talk your way out of a fight.
True, but after a certain point talking no longer works, and you have to resort to something else.
I understand the Larger concepts of the Martial Arts but at its base the Martial Arts teach Viloence.
It all comes down to intent. If you train to fight solely for the purpose of fighting, then yes, I suppose you are training to be violent. But if you choose to practice martial arts to be able to defend yourself against an attack from another person, or to defuse a dangerous situation, then you are training to be able to end violence.

[Hawks]

It all comes down to intent. If you train to fight solely for the purpose of fighting, then yes, I suppose you are training to be violent. But if you choose to practice martial arts to be able to defend yourself against an attack from another person, or to defuse a dangerous situation, then you are training to be able to end violence.

I agree. But at what point do you turn the other cheek or accept the fact you have to hurt someone? I know plenty of controlling techniques where I am not damaging another person but there is always pain involved. I personally agree with the fact that you do whatever you can to avoid violence until you cant any longer but my wife cant seem to understand so I thought I would ask other people who train and are much wiser than myself. I asked a Methodist Minister who says hwe just tries to live in gray area in between. Unfortunately the world can be violent and sometimes you need to do what you need to do. It is never ideal but neither is the world we live in.

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

^^^^ What Omicron said.

If you're training in martial arts for self defense or sport (as opposed to inflicting senseless violence for no reason), then that should be perfectly compatible with religious belief.

[Omicron]

But at what point do you turn the other cheek or accept the fact you have to hurt someone?
One of the core principles of the martial art I practice (Shorinji Kempo) is that strength without compassion is violence, but compassion without strength is useless. The two must stand together; at some point you have to be able to draw the line and stand up for yourself and help to keep the peace.

[Hawks]

One of the core principles of the martial art I practice (Shorinji Kempo) is that strength without compassion is violence, but compassion without strength is useless. The two must stand together; at some point you have to be able to draw the line and stand up for yourself and help to keep the peace.


That is a great way to look at it. Like I said I havent known quite how to adress this with my wife. I differ to much wiser people.

[aikiMac]

I understand that but... You slamming someone down on concrete that was trying to rob you isnt love. No one wants to hurt someone else but that IMO is the cold hard fact of what we learn how to hurt people. There is defintely more than that but it is an intrigle if not the largest part of what we learn.
So don't slam him on concrete. Do something else. Have a conversation with him instead. Or buy him a salad at McDonalds. Or just use your aikido to move out of the way. The physical movements can have non-physical meanings, and those meanings can relate to interpersonal love. But if all you want to see is a head hitting concrete, then you shouldn't even have asked the question in the first post.

I don't know what "intrigle" is.

[jonmonk]

So don't slam him on concrete. Do something else. Have a conversation with him instead. Or buy him a salad at McDonalds. Or just use your aikido to move out of the way. The physical movements can have non-physical meanings, and those meanings can relate to interpersonal love. But if all you want to see is a head hitting concrete, then you shouldn't even have asked the question in the first post.

I don't know what "intrigle" is.

I think I agree to a certain extent but I also think there must be more to it than that. I dunno, it just seems to me that by saying that it's ok because you'll only use some of what you've learned in your Aiki practice is a bit... too easy? If that were the case then why not simply learn how to move out of the way? Also, you mention the technique of buying him a salad at McDonald's which is obviously an extremely cruel thing to do and I'm sure O'Sensei must be turning in his grave at the very prospect of such an outrage :)

Perhaps I'm missing the point. I wonder if the practice of Aiki and other martial arts is designed to move with the human development of the person training. When we're young we're a melting pot of unexpected hormonal and physical changes. Perhaps at that stage of our lives it's just a given that we are likely to get ourselves into hot water simply because we're still developing the emotional maturity required to avoid conflict yet maintain our dignity and self-respect. Perhaps as we get older and learn to control ourselves, our training changes accordingly and becomes more about self-control and spiritual growth.

[shunyadragon]

Then you could just learn to be a great debater. You dont need to learn how to kick and punch to talk your way out of a fight. I understand the Larger concepts of the Martial Arts but at its base the Martial Arts teach Viloence.

In the reality of the Arts of the Way (MA) this is not true, they teach skills and not violence. The original Arts were Vedic (Hindu)/Buddhist/Taoist, and very spiritual in their natural, and not violent. The other element is the influence of the primal disciplines learned for hunting and warrior arts. These were practical arts and developed over time to Art of warfare. These arts were later incorporated into what is erroneously called MA.

The other point is Arts of the Way is in essense religious (Vedic (Hindu)/Buddhist/Taoist). The religious purpose behind the the Arts includes teachings of non-Violence. This is often, commercialized, corrupted and misrepresented in the west.

One point to remember is that words are the most powerful and dangerous weapons o the fast of the earth.

[Hawks]

So don't slam him on concrete. Do something else. Have a conversation with him instead. Or buy him a salad at McDonalds. Or just use your aikido to move out of the way. The physical movements can have non-physical meanings, and those meanings can relate to interpersonal love. But if all you want to see is a head hitting concrete, then you shouldn't even have asked the question in the first post.

I don't know what "intrigle" is.


Forgive my spelling/typing.

I certainly understand what everyone is saying and l agree. Like I have said couple of times I was just curious what other peoples opinons were.

[Capt Ann]

I understand that but... You slamming someone down on concrete that was trying to rob you isnt love. It can be.

We in the west have a mooshy, whimpish 'feel-good' approach to love, that doesn't rumple anybody's feathers or make them uncomfortable in any way. Ever have a very good friend involved in drugs or a family member on alcohol? Which is more 'loving', to be 'nice' to them, or to confront them?

With the violence/martial arts example, do you think you should tell a sword-wielding maniac to 'have a nice day' as he slashes past you to get to your family, or would it be more loving to fight tooth-and-nail to stop him?

I haven't body-slammed anybody lately, but I had a similar thing happen at my business (I consider myself a Christian, and I own a Christian book and gift store). I found an employee had been stealing for six months, and had managed to pull $12,000 out of the business--we almost went out of business as a result. I had to really wrestle with how to respond. How should I balance love, forgiveness, justice, mercy, turning the other cheek, and social responsibility? In this case, I decided to press charges, and I believe it was the most loving thing to do, in the given situation.

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

In this case, I decided to press charges, and I believe it was the most loving thing to do, in the given situation.
I think you were totally justified in that case. Being a Christian and attempting to do the loving thing doesn't mean that we have to be doormats. We're entitled to defend ourselves/families/homes/businesses when they are threatened.

[Alexander]

It is never my intention to hurt someone but I have to be realistic enough to know that this is what I train...

Isn't that the answer your looking for?

Kinjiro, doesn't Chrisianity state that people should turn the other cheek against every offence recieved? I believe it works on the assumption that God will judge eventually for your grievances.

[Bellator Manus]

How do I come to terms with MA? I like these sort of questions.

I come to terms with it by only using it in situations were I must. It is like adding a tool to your belt. I can choose when and how to use it. I will use the tools I have to stop someone from coming under serious harm, not to make myself look tough or be the top dog.Kinjiro, doesn't Chrisianity state that people should turn the other cheek against every offence recieved? I believe it works on the assumption that God will judge eventually for your grievances.I believe Jesus was talking about taking revenge for things that aren't worth it. He was saying that some discomfort is worth sitting through to avoid a bad situation. You could even make a good example by showing kindness to someone who has been rude.

[wayofthedragon]

As a Martial Artist how do you come to terms with being religious and studying what is a violent art. Please dont give me that we dont train to fight stuff, at the end of the day we are learning how to hurt someone.It is never my intention to hurt someone but I have to be realistic enough to know that this is what I train, A Martial Art. I ask beacuse my wife believes the violence begets violence idea and I was curious what some other thoughts are.



Thanks Guys and Girls
This is not something new. shaolin monks are religious. Religiousness has nothing to do with it. It's what is in your heart. If it is in your heart to train in martial arts to get in fights and be a bully and hurt people. You are just a sick and evil person, but if it is in your heart to do good to people and help those you meet and never ever use your skills to harm another being unless there is no other way....then you must understand one thing. It is not the art that is violent or non violent. It is the heart of the person who studies the art. That is what it depends on. A violent heart will breed violent behavoir when it comes to martial arts, in which a non violent heart will not. My martial arts style is not violent because I am not violent, but if I were a violent person....then watch out. That is what it is all about. Just my few cents...

ps. and it does not only deal with martial arts...for a person with a violent heart does not need martial arts to hurt anyone. Nor do a non violent person need martial arts to defend himself if there is no other way....they make guns now as well as other neet weapons :D . To say the last word again....martial arts are not violent nor does it have anything to do with martial arts:)

[Hawks]

This is not something new. shaolin monks are religious. Religiousness has nothing to do with it. It's what is in your heart. If it is in your heart to train in martial arts to get in fights and be a bully and hurt people. You are just a sick and evil person, but if it is in your heart to do good to people and help those you meet and never ever use your skills to harm another being unless there is no other way....then you must understand one thing. It is not the art that is violent or non violent. It is the heart of the person who studies the art. That is what it depends on. A violent heart will breed violent behavoir when it comes to martial arts, in which a non violent heart will not. My martial arts style is not violent because I am not violent, but if I were a violent person....then watch out. That is what it is all about. Just my few cents...

ps. and it does not only deal with martial arts...for a person with a violent heart does not need martial arts to hurt anyone. Nor do a non violent person need martial arts to defend himself if there is no other way....they make guns now as well as other neet weapons :D . To say the last word again....martial arts are not violent nor does it have anything to do with martial arts:)
That is a great perspective. Thanks for posting :D