Taiji vs. Bagua vs. Xingyi

[gerard]

Hello,

Imagine you are invited to assist as an spectator to a Wushu Tournament held in Beijing (China). Once in there you go and watch the Internal event:

The internal event is Hand Form and the finalists are three masters of the following categories: Open Chen Taijiquan, Open Imperial Baguazhang and Open Shan Xi Xingyiquan.

The question is:

WHO IS GOING TO WIN?

Last thing all of them are accomplished Nei Gung Taoists.


IMO, it's a tough call but there will be lots of :woo: and the fight can go for days!

[nzric]

Excuse my ignorance, but by Hand Form do you mean a forms competition or a fight?

If it was a fight...

Well the history, and the common assumption is that Bagua and Hsing-i will always end in a draw (as per the famous legend/story), but I'd be tempted to side with Hsing-i (against my own personal preference) because it's more direct, so the hsing-i guy would probably be more proficient in a few fight-finishing moves than the more intricate bagua stylist.

I'd pay a LOT of money to see Chen Taiji vs Baguazhang... wouldn't be surprised if a tornado started in the middle of the stadium :D (yep, I've seen the movie Tai Chi Master). Chen would probably win because while both have the deceptive stepping & quick direction change, the taiji guy doesn't have to coil/prepare as much to generate power (therefore ultimately quicker)... also, many bagua methods rely on the element of surprise against an external attack, which would be useless on a proficient taiji fighter.

Chen taiji vs the Xingyiquan - I'd have to say definitely taiji. Many taiji methods are designed specifically to counter hsing-i directness, and a good stylist should be able to transfer the energy/force, even if it's with full intent from a hsing-i attack. Also, the taiji fighter has more range/variety of techniques to draw from.

[soggycat]

http://www.wu-jing.org/dramas/master_of_taichi.php.

Hong Kong TV series, Choreographer = Yuen Woo Ping ( Crouching Tiger, Matrix, Kill Bill, Iron Monkey)

[gerard]

http://www.wu-jing.org/dramas/master_of_taichi.php.

Hong Kong TV series, Choreographer = Yuen Woo Ping ( Crouching Tiger, Matrix, Kill Bill, Iron Monkey)


I have to admit I've just fallen in love with the chick depicted in the far left side of the screen.

What are you saying Gerard? You supposed to be a monk-boy :p

Let me recall at this point this Zen short-story:

"Two monks were walking down a muddy road, and came across a young woman trying to cross it but unable to avoid a large pool of water. The first monk was inclined just to walk on. The second monk promptly helped the woman by lifting her up and carrying her across.

Following this incident the two monks walked on, but there was obvious tension between them. After a while the first monk, unable to contain his anger any longer, remonstrated with the second, saying:

"You know it is against our vows to touch a woman, why did you lift her up and carry her?"

The second monk replied:

"I may have carried her back there but you are still carrying her and you haven't let her go."



No more girls for Gerard :D

[gerard]

Excuse my ignorance, but by Hand Form do you mean a forms competition or a fight?

Hey Kiwi brother,

It means no weapons


:)

[Infrazael]

Good lord. I don't know. . . I'd say Xing-I, cuz it's so damned aggressive. . . . but. . . . .god you're killing me gerard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Buddy]

Whomever has the most skill will win. People win, styles don't.

[Matt_Bernius]

The only thing about XingYi is that if his opponent knows how to side step he could be in trouble. ;)

- Matt

[Shadowdh]

No-one wins cos they all had to fight... :D

[nzric]

No-one wins cos they all had to fight... :D
Very PC!

I just remembered the simple answer... no-one would win because if they were true "masters" they'd know the first rule of IMA fighting, which is if the opponent does not attack, you don't attack.

So it'd end in a stalemate because they'd know whoever attacked first would probably lose.

:D

[cloudz]

Unless of course the first attack was a fake!

Usually if two people of close ability go at it, its very likely one or both could get seriuosly injured or worse. All in all a very bad idea. A good reason to let things go.

If there is equal ability, I'd choose the guy with the strongest mind, and most serious intent. Could be Hsing i (mind intent) boxing. This area is hard to measure though and falls into the x factor area and comes down to individuals again.

[Ziranmen]

There was a contest like this held in Nanjing in 1928 (and I think again 1933?). Bagua, Taiji and Xing Yi fighters were all very effective but the tournament was particularly viscious and unforgiving. It was eventually halted due to the excessive injuries suffered by the competitors.

[uki]

Excuse my ignorance, but by Hand Form do you mean a forms competition or a fight?

If it was a fight...

Well the history, and the common assumption is that Bagua and Hsing-i will always end in a draw (as per the famous legend/story), but I'd be tempted to side with Hsing-i (against my own personal preference) because it's more direct, so the hsing-i guy would probably be more proficient in a few fight-finishing moves than the more intricate bagua stylist.

I'd pay a LOT of money to see Chen Taiji vs Baguazhang... wouldn't be surprised if a tornado started in the middle of the stadium :D (yep, I've seen the movie Tai Chi Master). Chen would probably win because while both have the deceptive stepping & quick direction change, the taiji guy doesn't have to coil/prepare as much to generate power (therefore ultimately quicker)... also, many bagua methods rely on the element of surprise against an external attack, which would be useless on a proficient taiji fighter.

Chen taiji vs the Xingyiquan - I'd have to say definitely taiji. Many taiji methods are designed specifically to counter hsing-i directness, and a good stylist should be able to transfer the energy/force, even if it's with full intent from a hsing-i attack. Also, the taiji fighter has more range/variety of techniques to draw from.

you did ba gua and hsing-yi as tai chi?? or do tai chi like hsing-yi, or hsing-yi like ba gua?? crazy isn't it? :)

[cloudz]

:confused:

Do you do sun style or something? :)

[uki]

:confused:

Do you do sun style or something? :)

something like that. the idealology is very interesting. i am reading the study of form-mind boxing right now. simple yet profound. elegant, yet without show. it's just that with all the competition out there about whose martial art is better and what is the best to train... people seem to forget the underlying principle is that practice makes perfect... it doesn't matter if you practice. all things are possible, there is no right or wrong way, there is only martial art.

[Socrastein]

Tai Chi would win. The latter two are compliments to Tai Chi. You learn tai chi, and you cultivate sensitivity and yielding, retaliation through redirection of force, as well as focus, relaxation and internal power. You then learn baqua and learn footwork and body manipulation. Finally, you learn xing-i and you learn to channel all the internal energy you cultivate with the prior two into a single blow. Xing-i masters could reportedly kill and opponent with a single strike, so honed was their internal power and concentration.

So, if we are to assume that all these fighters only know there one particular style, then tai chi will win, because the other two are nothing (or at least, are very little) with out it. It begins and it ends with tai chi, tai chi being the highest expression of the human body. You start with tai chi, you then use bagua and xing-i to further your skill, and then you later find that your tai chi is now able to improve that much more and you come full circle, nearly indestructible for having mastered all three (Assuming you've got a hundred or more years spare time :D)

[cloudz]

something like that. the idealology is very interesting. i am reading the study of form-mind boxing right now. simple yet profound. elegant, yet without show. it's just that with all the competition out there about whose martial art is better and what is the best to train... people seem to forget the underlying principle is that practice makes perfect... it doesn't matter if you practice. all things are possible, there is no right or wrong way, there is only martial art.


I'm with you there, in fighting one's 'applications' should be natural and sponteneous. (formless).

[daftyman]

The real queastion should be who would get to the bar first?

Xingyi guy would try to plow straight through the crowd, the bagua dude would circle the bar, and the taiji fella would find the crowds yin point and slip right to the front! :D

Bit of a pointless exercise really, as the result depends more on the guy than the art. If you then say that they are all really high level, then chances are that they wouldn't fight at all, just use some other not combative 'test' to show their skill.

[soggycat]

http://www.wu-jing.org/dramas/master_of_taichi.php.

Hong Kong TV series, Choreographer = Yuen Woo Ping ( Crouching Tiger, Matrix, Kill Bill, Iron Monkey)


I have just finished watching the entire 18 hours of this series.
<phew>
It is actually fairly close to historical events. ( I checked with my Chinese born masters)
Oh yeah, I had to watch it with a Mandarin speaking person as there are no English subtitles at all !

The fighting is absolutely fantabulous, no special effects and flying business.
Plenty of sword and female action too.

It's a Beijing , not Hong Kong production.
Jet Li's real life Wushu coach plays Chen Tai Chi master, Jacky Wu , new Wushu champ and also actor in TaiChi Master2 , plays Yang Lu Chuan.

You get to see many Tai Chi and Bagua techniques nrarely before featured in a movie or TV show.
Tai Chi Master (1 & 2) really pale in comparison to this.

The series documents the life of Yang Lu Chuan , from when he secretly learns Tai Chi from the Chen family subsequently modifying it to Yang Style.
There's an interesting Yang Versus Bagua match between Yang Lu Chuan and Dong Hai Chuan.

Both were "auditioning" for Head of Security in the Emperor's court ( 1850's). The Emperor was aware both were formidable styles but couldn't make up his mind. By then Yang Lu Chuan and Dong Hai Chuan had cleared all the elimination rounds defeating all other styles etc.

In the final match , Yang Lu Chuan conceded defeat only because he felt he couldn't beat Dong, so he called of the fight.

Consequently, Dong Hai Chuan and Bagua was given official court recognition as Imperial martial arts #1, Taichi was #2.

Imperial body guards had to learn both. Soldiers were trained in HsingYi.

[Buddy]

Dude, it's a friggen movie.

[soggycat]

Dude, it's a friggen movie.
Dude...it's a biography .... :bang:
Do you know what B-I-O-G-R-A-P-H-Y means ?

[Richdog]

I would give my high teeth to see recorded footage of the old-style contests where all the internal arts competed against eachother in a real tournament. Do you think such footage exists...?

(And I dont' mean the sucky 195x white crane match)

[Buddy]

It's fiction. There is no evidence that Dong and Yang ever met. None that soldiers learned Xingyi, they learned to use swords. None tha guards learned either. You need to read more.

[Richdog]

It's fiction. There is no evidence that Dong and Yang ever met. None that soldiers learned Xingyi, they learned to use swords. None tha guards learned either. You need to read more.

No need to be rude mate You need to practise manners more. :Angel:

Besides, many sites say that Xing-Yi was taught to troops so it's not as though he pulled it out of thin air is it?

[alienlovechild]

If all these people are masters of internal martial artists the answer is simple: the first person to attack will lose, regardless of their style. The fight would go for days if neither person attacked, though as soon as one attacked the fight would be over in a few seconds. If they are not true masters but wanna-be stylists - which the description makes them sound like they are [wu shu] - then the actual fight could go for ages and I wouldn't care who one.

[Infrazael]

True masters would still be able to attack.

[soggycat]

It's fiction. There is no evidence that Dong and Yang ever met. None that soldiers learned Xingyi, they learned to use swords. None tha guards learned either. You need to read more.

There's no "evidence" the soldiers learnt to use the swords either.
But there's a lot of written and drawn evidence that soldiers held swords.
Maybe that's all they did...hold swords to look pretty.
:rolleyes:


You need to realise that written history does not document everything.
Also not everything is translated into English.

Uranium was discovered in 1789.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium#History
So "evidence" only existed starting 1789.

According to your style of reasoning, Uranium did not exist before 1789.

That Dong and Yang were friends and rivals is a well accepted fact in China.
That Soldiers were trained in HsingI is also common knowledge.
Common knowledge has a way of not being recorded.
Why record the obvious?

My goodness, there's also no evidence to prove that Yang Lu Chuan is Chinese. I mean everyone assumed so, it was common knowledge, but no one has seen his birth certificate. Does that mean he's not Chinese?

How appropriate is it for one who doesn't live in China to declare what is and isn't true in Chinese history ?

[Shadowdh]

There's no "evidence" the soldiers learnt to use the swords either.
But there's a lot of written and drawn evidence that soldiers held swords.
Maybe that's all they did...hold swords to look pretty.
:rolleyes:


You need to realise that written history does not document everything.
Also not everything is translated into English.

Uranium was discovered in 1789.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium#History
So "evidence" only existed starting 1789.

According to your style of reasoning, Uranium did not exist before 1789.

That Dong and Yang were friends and rivals is a well accepted fact in China.
That Soldiers were trained in HsingI is also common knowledge.
Common knowledge has a way of not being recorded.
Why record the obvious?

My goodness, there's also no evidence to prove that Yang Lu Chuan is Chinese. I mean everyone assumed so, it was common knowledge, but no one has seen his birth certificate. Does that mean he's not Chinese?

How appropriate is it for one who doesn't live in China to declare what is and isn't true in Chinese history ?


Jesus youre really reaching now SC...

[Buddy]

Look, I realize that the truth is not pretty but continuing these nonsense stories does nothing to promote the living art that baguazhang is. Sog, you're argument is specious and without merit. Please site your sources re: Xingyi and the Army and Dong/Yang meeting. Are you certain of the lack of documentation of Yang's birth? Actually it is recorded in his home village of Guangping. The Yang family is still living you realize and they are of the Han nationality. There are training manuals extant that show troop training. The government of the various dynastys, in fact, kept very accurate records. That's what governments do. In that I suggested that you read more (something you seem loathe to do if it upsets your fantasies), try Douglas Wiles Lost Tai-Chi Classics From the Late Ching Dynasty.

[soggycat]

Sog, you're argument is specious and without merit. Please site your sources re: Xingyi and the Army and Dong/Yang meeting.

Are you certain of the lack of documentation of Yang's birth? Actually it is recorded in his home village of Guangping. The Yang family is still living you realize and they are of the Han nationality.

That Dong and Yang met is like, my goodness common knowledge, maybe not among Americans who only READ about Internal arts.

Let's for an instance ignore the "hearsay", and just focus on the logic.
Like dude, both Dong and Yang were in the SAME palace grounds on a regular basis. You are insisting that they have never met given that both had reputations that preceeded them ?

That XingYi is the standard style adopted by the military is also common knowledge.

The point I brought up about Yang's race and birth documents is that YOU haven't seen it but accepted it as truth.
As far as I am concerned YOU have seen the evidence with your eyes yet you accept it.
After all it is you who insist on providing solid evidence over common knowledge.

For the record, I believe Yang Lu Chuan to be of Chinese race and birth based on my acceptance of a commonly known fact.

[soggycat]

It's fiction. ....... None that soldiers learned Xingyi, they learned to use swords. None tha guards learned either. You need to read more.

Dude, XingYi is also famous for it's sword technique, a COMMONLY known fact in China ....perhaps it is you who should read more and dismiss others less.
:)

Unless you know more than Tim Cartmell:
http://www.shenwu.com/hsingi.htm
"....Xing Yi Quan is the oldest of the 'internal' martial arts, and the only internal art proven effective on the battlefield."


And if you dispute the encyclopedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hsing_Yi
".....Hsing Yi claims to specialize in deceptively soft, linear, low attacks and quick yet solid footwork appropriate for the battlefield and the military"



And a Colonel in the Chinese army eevn wrote a book on Army XingYi :
http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/drilling/books.html

" ......The Xingyi Quan Of The Chinese Army (Volume 2.)- Rifle & Bayonet Training and Applications (including a section on traditional xingyi spear techniques)."

[Shadowdh]

SC the funny thing is in Tai Chi's Ancestors (pretty much reprinting some ancient docs) it talks about how a persons martial (always mistakenly write that as marital... hmmm) abilities are not worth alot on the field of combat... that is in an army but quite effective singularly...

[Buddy]

"That Dong and Yang met is like, my goodness common knowledge, maybe not among Americans who only READ about Internal arts."

Fifteen years of baguazhang not long enough for you? It's "common knowlege" that Dong and Guo Yunshen met but that is apocryphal as well. Perhaps we can ask Yang Jun if his ancestor ever met Dong?

"Dude, XingYi is also famous for it's sword technique, a COMMONLY known fact in China ....perhaps it is you who should read more and dismiss others less."

Look if you study IMA you know the time required just to develop thebasic body method. Some soldiers may have done this training on their off hours but basically they are fodder. It's much easier and faster than to teach basic slash and stab along with group tactics.

"....Xing Yi Quan is the oldest of the 'internal' martial arts, and the only internal art proven effective on the battlefield."


Well I bow to my senior here but that statement does not say that soldiers were taught Xingyi on masse, just that it is effective. What the army is taught may well be based on Xingyi but without the shenfa...

[Richdog]

I think it would be logical to assume that while the average soldier would not have had the time and expense of training to master Hsing-Yi, they would have been taught enough to use the some effective empty-hand/sword techniques.

I don't wee why it's hard to believe Hsing-Yi was taught to soldiers, after all it is effective and has many "finishing" attacks... and the basics can be taught in a relatively short mount of time compared to Tai-Chi. Seems logical.

[Buddy]

First let me apologize for sounding so flippant. I will assume most of you are experienced internal martial art practitioners. With that assuption you understand how much training goes into just learning how to use the body method. Even in todays military much more time and effort goes into learning how to use weapons effectively. Comparily little training is given to empty hand fighting. Compound that with learning IMA's shenfa...it doesn't make sense. Could you show someone the five force vectors (wuxing) for effective combat with or without weapons? Sure. But for my money the key ingredient that would make an internal martial art is missing.

[Richdog]

Found this with Google... http://www.apittman.com/index.html?Articles/hsingitheory.htm~content

The oral tradition of Hsing I theory (we will leave out “Chuan” for convenience) states the art was created by General Yueh Fei around the year 1200. It was a martial art taught to the infantry for the battlefield. Though there is no documented historical evidence for this theory - the martial art of Hsing I Chuan does bear the marks of a “battlefield art.”

Namely it is designed to invade and take ones territory. The practitioner advances directly or obliquely and takes the position of the antagonist; quite literally possessing the opponent's direct space. The movements of the art are also easily adaptable to most weaponry. This makes the empty-handed art, or chuan, an excellent preparation for more advanced weaponry training. For example, in the 1940’s this martial art was used in conjunction with the bayonet.

[awakened nature]

A whole article on xing yi in the military:

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/crushing/militaryxingyi.html

Merry Christmas

[Ziranmen]

"With that assuption you understand how much training goes into just learning how to use the body method. Even in todays military much more time and effort goes into learning how to use weapons effectively. Comparily little training is given to empty hand fighting."

That is true now but not in the past. Close quarters combat relies on fists as much as steel. In medievel close quarters combat it was just as common to have your head smashed in than it was to be stabbed. Whatever kills the quickest. You will also find that swords were expensive to make and most were realitively in ineffective against a number of soldiers armed with spears and halberds (the preferred choice for soldiers). Xing Yi spear or pole form would be perfect for that.

As for "obtaining" internal power you forget that back then everybody learnt martial arts. Villages were likely to be attacked at any moment so in order to have the best defence it was necessary to teach women and children martial arts as well. Today, most people learn martial arts in between school, work, etc. Back then it was nearly all a warrior ever did. Get up, train, go to sleep. It may take us over ten years of "hard" training to "get it" but they had an incentive, learn how to do it or die. It would not be unimaginable for me to think that there were large numbers of experienced warriors around that could use internal power effectively.

[nzric]

But think about it. Internal training when you live in a fishing/farming village makes sense, but if you're a conscript in the army you have to learn the most effective ways, quickly.

When you're put in the army, you're not encouraged to do qigong and simple drills for a few years to get used to it. In the olden days, you may have to fight at any time (e.g. a week after you're taken from your family at 15yo to be cannon fodder in the service of the Emperor). Therefore, the training would consist of you and hundreds of others, in neat rows, learning the most basic cut/thrust techniques. That way you're less likely to stab yourself or the guy next to you in the leg when you're on the battlefield.

If internal MA were used, it would be after they had a solid grounding in EMA, and would probably come from the top down (from the proven warriors who didn't have to worry about mere survival, and had some time to train/compete with top stylists).

[soggycat]

SC the funny thing is in Tai Chi's Ancestors (pretty much reprinting some ancient docs) it talks about how a persons martial (always mistakenly write that as marital... hmmm) abilities are not worth alot on the field of combat... that is in an army but quite effective singularly...

Agree...Think Tai Chi or Pakua is not suited for battle field, but that's just my opinion

[Ziranmen]

Yeh, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Conscripts wouldn't, but that the trained regulars would. Note that Dong never taught the imperial guard Bagua explicitely, he taught a shaolin style (Lo Han I think?) (I won't go into whether or not shaolin has IM concepts, thats another thread). Modern Bagua came from his disciples who interpreted what they learnt off him, his disciples being the top soldiers at the time (the ones who didn't have to worry about mere survival).

[Ziranmen]

Bagua was good for crowd control. The imperial guard used to use it to break up mobs and one guard would fight off a number of people at a time (no, don't have proof). Cheng Tinghua was an active fighter during the Boxer Rebellion and was eventually shot by a number of riflemen. He is also famous for his run in with a number of Russians army thugs which he defeated simultaneously (read it in a book). Probably not that useful for battlefield when your in formation, but has it purposes. From what I gather the top martial artists had roles similar to the modern day SAS (protection, assassination, infiltration, etc).

[nzric]

I've always thought of bagua as a bodyguard art. That's been backed up by the general things I've read, and also from comments by teachers and a couple of bagua masters (e.g. Ma Chuan Xu) when I've spoken to them.

Wasn't bagua "discovered" when a high-ranking official saw a waiter using the stepping methods to get through a crowd? Or is that a myth?

[Buddy]

My take on that is it is more apochrypal stories. And Cheng Tinghua made glasses. Yin Fu sold steamed buns before meeting Dong. Li Cunyi and Zhang Zhangkui ran a bodyguard service. None were soldiers. Dong was a eunech in the service of Prince Su.

[Ziranmen]

Dong was initially a house servant for Prince Wu. The legend goes that the during a martial art demonstration none of the servants could get through the hallways because of the crowd, so he climbed over the building and served tea that way. When the prince saw his agility he asked him to demonstrate his martial art. So he did and ended up obtaining the chief post in the palace. He said he learnt the martial art of two taoist monks and didn't know the name of it (don't think it had one). When the prince asked him what it was called, he made it up on the spot and said "Baguazhang". That was around 1850.

"Divine Strength Eye-glasses Cheng" (Cheng Ting Hua) was also a eye-glass spectacle maker. He was also one of Dongs top students. He was not a soldier, but he did get shot fighting foreign soldiers.

Li Wen Bao was a student of Cheng's, he worked for General Chang and was appointed to seek out foreign spies. He later worked as a bodyguard for President Cao Kun.

Cheng You Gun (Cheng Ting Hua's nephew) was employed in Fengtian under a government officer Li Wen Bao. His job was to seek out theives and spies. He later held another position under General Zhang Zuo Lin.

It's in "Dragon Stretches Its Claws" by Liu Jing Ru (Vice Chairman of the Research Society of Baguazhang in Beijing) and CS Tang. It's in english.

[Buddy]

Once again the banquet story is only that. Originally Dong called his art "Circling Palms", the eight trigram reference being added later.

[Ziranmen]

Buddy, do you have a reference for that?

[gerard]

I'm with you there, in fighting one's 'applications' should be natural and sponteneous. (formless).


Agree 100%.

IMA is not a close-chain kind of activity. Another art could be created in any point of Samsara. Just patience, dedication and deep intuitive skill are needed.

[silksword]

ba gua all the way, and for the rcord, cheng ting hwa getting shot is only a rumor, one of many. similar to bruce lee's rumored deaths.

[Buddy]

Z,
Pa Kua Chang Journal. From the research of Kang Kowu. Don't say that name fast, it'll sound like a marsupial.

[Ziranmen]

B, Cool! Thanks! I'll check it out.

[soggycat]

ba gua all the way, and for the rcord, cheng ting hwa getting shot is only a rumor, one of many. similar to bruce lee's rumored deaths.



Bruce Lee died in Hong Kong in 1972 when a blood vessel in his brain ruptured.
That part is not a rumour. What's rumoured is
1.He took drugs and died as a result. The drug were rumoured to be anything from pain killer to recreational ...

2. He was in the house of actress Betty Ting Pei rehearsing lines.
This part is not a rumour. What's rumoured was he was having an affair


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagua_zhang

Bagua was developed by Dong Haichuan in the early 19th century, who apparently learnt from Taoist and Buddhist masters in the mountains of rural China. There is evidence to suggest a synthesis of several pre-existing martial arts taught and practiced in the region he lived in, combined with Taoist circle walking. (It should be noted that circle walking appears popular among the shamanic traditions, including a version practiced by Siberian shamans). Dong Haichuan taught for many years in Beijing, eventually earning patronage by the Imperial court.

Few good teachers of Baguazhang are available in the United States, and many do not advertise. Many are conservative and in line with Confucian didactic tradition will only reveal internal practices to dedicated students.


Cheng Ting Hua was killed during the Boxer Rebellion of 1900, when Chinese martial Artists rose by the hundreds against armed troops of the 8 invading foreign countries : Japan, England, Austria/ Hungary , France, Italy , Belgium and USA.
Many Chinese born Bagua teachers tell the tale that with 2 swords he slew 11 Germans soldiers before falling toa bullet.

Boxer Rebellion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion


Cheng Ting Hua/Hwa
http://cstang.www3.50megs.com/gao.htm
Sadly after only two years, Cheng was killed by German Soldiers in 1900, the boxer rebellion. During an altercation over being work press ganged into a work detail he pulled a short knife and was shot jumping over a wall in an attempt to escape. Cheng was only fifty-two.


http://www.kungfu.gr/baguaenglish.htm
In 1900, the Eight Countries Allied Armies invaded Beijing. Master Cheng wanted to stop a unit of the German army that was threatening and intimidating the people. While engaged in battle against this German unit he was shot and killed.



http://www.hsing-i.com/pa_kua/phist.html
Because he managed an eyeglass business, he was also sometimes known as "Glasses Cheng." Cheng Ting-Hua died in 1900 while resisting foreign troops during the Opium War.

[gerard]

Hi,

I know pretty well the accounts of the Boxer rebellion. Very sad like all wars.


Metta (http://dharma.ncf.ca/introduction/sutras/metta-sutra.html)

[Kempo Fighter]

Unless of course the first attack was a fake!

Usually if two people of close ability go at it, its very likely one or both could get seriuosly injured or worse. All in all a very bad idea. A good reason to let things go.

If there is equal ability, I'd choose the guy with the strongest mind, and most serious intent. Could be Hsing i (mind intent) boxing. This area is hard to measure though and falls into the x factor area and comes down to individuals again.

I really wouldnt agree with the individual x factor and such, I studied Ba Gua Zhang for a while, and the two opposing styles really wouldnt fare well against Ba Gua's responsive stances and fluid technique, xing yi is a very aggresive style and would probably eventually fall to Ba Gua, but I dont know about the other guy in the fight, that one I cant call.

[cloudz]

When you talk about the 3 IMA's, I for one even though only ever having tried taiji, find it pretty hard to choose one over the other when it comes to combat. Part of that I think is because I can see crossover between them and each has its area of strength, you could say that even though their charactaristics are different their essence is the same. A bit like people...and combat...

[blue eagle]

It'll depend on the practicer or day, but I'll say Bagua cuz i'm biased for studying it and what other style practices striking someone in the air while throwing them.

and hitting a good swimming body artist and not getting killed is no easy task.

Tai chi also has some good throws but i'll take bagua over it, and xing yi's somewhat more of an external style, without too much kicks.

[polecat63]

and xing yi's somewhat more of an external style, without too much kicks.

Uh.....no it isn't. Been studying xing yi for two years and I think I've kicked, or have been kicked, twice. Xing yi's kicks are to the lower part of the body. Knees, ankles and groin mostly, and you;e taught to kick as you step. It's not like karate or TKD or even Tai Chi. Also, it is a very internal atyle since power is generated internally and not externally. But hey, maybe I'm wrong....or is I.

[Ular Sawa]

I have to agree with Polecat. It could be a style difference but the Hsing I that I studied did not emphasize kicking.

[blue eagle]

Uh.....no it isn't. Been studying xing yi for two years and I think I've kicked, or have been kicked, twice. Xing yi's kicks are to the lower part of the body. Knees, ankles and groin mostly, and you;e taught to kick as you step. It's not like karate or TKD or even Tai Chi. Also, it is a very internal atyle since power is generated internally and not externally. But hey, maybe I'm wrong....or is I.

everything generate's power internally and externally. you still need to have muscles to move(ppl over mystify what is internal). and I mean it's more external since it's more similar to so called somewhat more external styles such as long fist than bagua/taichi from what i've seen. minus the fancy stuff, and crossing fists.

[nzric]

Hsing-i appears external, but the power is generated internally. Also, a lot of hsing-i training is about focusing intent (qi/energy/concentration) and internal coordination. This is what defines it as an internal art.

but yeah, if you don't know what to look for, it may seem to be like very simple wing chun or karate.

[onyomi]

So, did Yang Luchan and Dong Hai-chuan ever actually meet each other? I read somewhere that they once met and exchanged arts to some extent, but that's all I've ever heard. They were both very famous martial artists in Beijing around the same time, so it seems natural that they would have met or even sparred, but I've never heard a detailed account of any such meeting. Since Yang Luchan was "Yang the Invincible" does this mean that most contemporaries of the two would have considered Yang to be able to beat Dong? Did they possibly never actually fight just to mutually save face/avoid injury?