Is Tai Chi Chuan practicle?

[Andy Pandy]

I have heard that dispite it's relitivly slow and pasive look, Tai Chi is one of the most effective martial arts forms there is. Is this true? It's just I had thought of doing Tai Chi before but I dismissed it as not being practicle enough. I understand the need for the more spiritual and mental side to martial arts rather than just the external side of things and I realy want a martial art that is guaranteed to cover those areas as well as just the physical side.

Also, I was thinking of doing Aikido to complement Tai Chi Chuan as it looks like a very good art and one that would suit me well. What can you tell me about Aikido. No detail needed realy, just a general over-view of what it is like, the style of combat it teaches, wheather it is more physical/mental/spiritual based etc...

(I would have posted this on the specific forums for these arts but I had to put them both in the same post)
(The real reason I did it is because the General Topics get more reads than the Style Specific topics :p)

[Jim]

Effective? Against what you'd have to ask... Anything's effective if it gets you where you need to be.

Tai Chi would be a worthwhile complimentry art to try along with Aikido. Both are soft styles. You'll have to ask the Aikido guys their opinions on this, I'll leave it to them...

[TkdWarrior]

soft???
Ahem... i still remember the pain in knees when i started in tai chi, eventually it went away... but the pain ....owww.... one thing for sure it ain't softy softy ...
Is tai chi Practical? for wat?
health?? well yes.. but that's wat other MA gives u too.. then??
Martial arts?? yes again but again other gives that to u too...

understand the need for the more spiritual and mental side to martial arts rather than just the external side of things
oh No Martial arts gives u that... if someone says so.. it's Bullsh!t :D...
actually it happens when u grow bore with fighting stuff... :D hahaha...

seriously i will not go for tai chi just for one reason that it's diluted to the max. most of tai chi wat i hav seen is just form that too not properly... i wonder if they get any Martial part of it...
if u get really good teacher its' worth it...
-TkdWarrior-

[Andy Pandy]

Thanks for the replies guyz.
First off, by "spiritual" I don't acualy mean that, I just can't think of the word for it. I mean, rather than just learning the moves, learning the meaning behind the moves as well. Also, things like meditation and relaxation to clear your mind etc... I do relaxation practices at home with Tai Chi Meditation music (truely beutiful music it is) and I realy feel refreshed afterwards and I would like to learn more about deeper relaxation and meditation. I am also interested in learning more about the ability to harness Ki energy as I believe that I have used this source of "energy" before when under pressure. Whether it is a combination of things like adrenalin, or something deeper than that, I don't know, but I am certainly interested in it.

Secondly, by "effective" I mean, by studying the art for a long time and putting allot of effort into it I could eventualy use the martial arts to be able to defend myself on the street in almost any situation I can think of. Don't get me wrong, I am not the sort of person to get into fights, I avoid it when possible but I have witnessed things that made me think, if that happened to me, could I defend myself? what would I be able to do about it if it happened? Nothing, I need a way to be able to defend myself and others I care for effectivly. I'm talking, being able to fight several oponants at the same time. I know it's ambitios, but I believe with my naturaly fast reflexes and understanding of combat I could become good enough to defend myself in a situation like that. But I need to train for it, no one is born with the ability to do that sort of thing so I need to find a martial art (or combination of) that will train me in things like that.

.... now my fingers are tired from all that typing....

[Jim]

Andy, what's available to you where you are? Perhaps if you told us that we'd be able to advise you (read as: give you our opinion on it) as to what would be a good choice for you.

[Andy Pandy]

I realy am not sure how to go about finding a martial art in my area, I have been recomended http://www.reactcrosstraining.co.uk/ as it is in my city of nottingham and it looks like a great place. But, it's too far away still, it's more than an hours drive in the traffic from my home each way and I can't easily get transport, so I don't know how I can possibly find anything good enough within my area. I don't know how to go about finding out all the martial arts classes there are in my area. Any pointers for finding good local martial arts?

I mean, that: http://nwtcc.up2.org/
is all in my area of nottingham obviously by the name of the site, but I can't make anything out of what the hell it is. It's got a load of into on Tai Chi Chaun and news of special events related to it but I don't think it mentions regular classes anywhere that cover that sylibus (which is the sort of thing i'm after, what it describes in the "syllabus (http://freespace.virgin.net/nottingham.wudang/training.htm) " section, thats the sort of training I want to do) (and I havn't found ANYTHING about Aikido in my area at all....)

(P.S. Don't flame me if I spelled loads of things there wrong i'm a bit **** at spelling at this time of the night.)

[YODA]

Give Pep a ring at React and let him know your transport problems. He may know someone who can give you a lift.

[Sonshu]

I never thought TCQ was any use until I met Simon Watson who is a senior instructor and technical assistant of Longfei Taijiquan Association.

He uses it well and to a great level of effectiveness, still I believe he was British National Undefeated Taijiquan Champion 1991-1997 so you would expect a good level.

I have to say I was suprised at how good and useful it was.

SONSHU

[morphus]

I've just started Tai Chi & though it is slow & some say soft, i gorra say, it takes it out of you when you're doing it & feeling the movements I would say at speed it COULD be effective but no-one knows how effective any art is until they get to test it for real.

In the Tai Chi i'm doing i can feel the movements that are the basis for almost every other art - makes me ask the question "Is this the parent of all martial arts?":)
Children do tend to go off & find their own way don't they!;)

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Andy Pandy
Thanks for the replies guyz.
First off, by "spiritual" I don't acualy mean that, I just can't think of the word for it. I mean, rather than just learning the moves, learning the meaning behind the moves as well. Also, things like meditation and relaxation to clear your mind etc... I do relaxation practices at home with Tai Chi Meditation music (truely beutiful music it is) and I realy feel refreshed afterwards and I would like to learn more about deeper relaxation and meditation. I am also interested in learning more about the ability to harness Ki energy as I believe that I have used this source of "energy" before when under pressure. Whether it is a combination of things like adrenalin, or something deeper than that, I don't know, but I am certainly interested in it.

Secondly, by "effective" I mean, by studying the art for a long time and putting allot of effort into it I could eventualy use the martial arts to be able to defend myself on the street in almost any situation I can think of. Don't get me wrong, I am not the sort of person to get into fights, I avoid it when possible but I have witnessed things that made me think, if that happened to me, could I defend myself? what would I be able to do about it if it happened? Nothing, I need a way to be able to defend myself and others I care for effectivly. I'm talking, being able to fight several oponants at the same time. I know it's ambitios, but I believe with my naturaly fast reflexes and understanding of combat I could become good enough to defend myself in a situation like that. But I need to train for it, no one is born with the ability to do that sort of thing so I need to find a martial art (or combination of) that will train me in things like that.

.... now my fingers are tired from all that typing....

Spiritual is a personal thing, Tai Chi could be what you want, its not a religion, but the energy thing is linked to more Eastern Religions.

But the martial side, it shouldn't just be about doing it for a long time and then it getting effective. Its about what TKDwarrior said; Tai Chi has been watered down in many or most cases. And what you practice lacks the Martial side that it originally had. What too many people try and do is recreate the martial side from the health side.

I did Tai Chi with Bruce Lee! :)

[Spike]

"Tai Chi would be a worthwhile complimentry art to try along with Aikido. Both are soft styles. You'll have to ask the Aikido guys their opinions on this, I'll leave it to them..."

Not all Aikido is soft. Tomiki/Shodokhan is a bit tougher and Yoshinkan is a very hard style of Aikido

[Andy Pandy]

Give Pep a ring at React and let him know your transport problems. He may know someone who can give you a lift.
I don't want to be a pain in the ass or anything. I would feel uncomfortable getting a lift off someone.... might ring and see what they say anyway though.

[aikiMac]

Originally posted by Andy Pandy
I have heard that dispite it's relitivly slow and pasive look, Tai Chi is one of the most effective martial arts forms there is. Is this true?

Yes. It's not just "one the most effective" it is "the most effective." However, you'll be grandfather if not a great-grandfather before you reach that level of skill. By that time you won't care which martial art is the best. And in the meantime, all martial arts are equal.

I understand the need for the more spiritual and mental side to martial arts rather than just the external side of things and I realy want a martial art that is guaranteed to cover those areas as well as just the physical side.

Tai chi and aikido fit the bill. Some varieties of karate, judo, and kung fu also put a lot of time into spiritual and mental training.

What can you tell me about Aikido.
Emphasis on circular movements as opposed to linear movements. Emphasis on using the other person's strength against him so that every fight is 2 against 1. (You + him equals 2, fighting him, who is 1.) There is a disagreement on this board whether aikido is a grappling art or not, but anyway, it's arsenal is largely comprised of locks and throws. You'll find the same, or nearly the same, locks and throws in jujitsu and a dozen other martial arts. The differences in aikido, however, are that (1) aikido is 100% defensive, and (2) the goal is to neutralize the attack without hurting the attacker. The aikido practitioner is trained to think about the well-being of his attacker in the middle of the fight. It's the only martial art that I know of that is entirely defensive and that is designed to not cause any substantial injury. But as a consequence of these peculiarities, developing skill in aikido takes a lot longer than developing skill in almost every other martial art. The attitude of love for the attacker comes out of the founder's deep religious convictions. Not all aikido schools emphasize spiritual development but there are scores of books written about the spiritual and philosophical side of aikido.

Another peculiarity of aikido is that it was designed for defense against multiple attackers. An aikido person will do the same thing when facing, say, 5 attackers that he would do against 1 attacker. And it will work, assuming of course a threshold level of skill. I don't know of any other martial art that was consciously built with multiple attackers in mind.

[Andy Pandy]

:eek: yikes, thanks knife fighter. Thats what I was looking for! :D

I definitly be doin Aikido, it sounds perfect for me. (atm I never dare defend myself because I know for a fact that I am capable of causeing quite a bit of injury and I have been rather badly hurt because of this. If I learnt a martial art that would alow me to "neutralise" opponants without harming them badly I would actualy be able to defend myself next time I find myself in trouble). And the multiple opponants bit is also vital for the purpose I need it for. I am spending allot more time going out to town and stuff and the people there who drink often get a "tad" violent and it's not a rare thing to be met with a crowd of semi-drunk, tank-like, skin heads that want my phone and my money.... and if I can't run away, to be able to defend myself against multiple opponants would be essensial.

Thanks bud! :D

[Andy Pandy]

hmmm.... don't suppose anyone knows of any decent Aikido schools/classes in Nottingham (prefereably within an hour of West Bridgford) do you? (worth a try...)

[shadow joe]

just to answer your main question: Traditional Tai Chi can be a phenomenal experience...


all you really have to look for is a couple things:


make sure it's not just a school that teaches the Yiang form, this is the first form and with the popularity of Tai Chi it is the one most commonly taught. Make sure that there are steps to reach the other styles of Chen, Wu, Sun, Baguah, and Xing-i.

Also make sure they teach the martial applications through Yiquan standing and push hands. If they don't do push hands you probably aren't going to learn combatitive Tai Chi.


like Aikido or other internal arts, it is a very slow process. It takes about 10 years to get a good grip on Internal arts. As you build off the Yiang form (the one I just finished) it becomes increasingly easier to learn and retain new aspects.


In conjunction with an external art you can accelerate your understanding of the internal by applying it there.


regardless, if you get the real deal you'll eventually be able to use Tai Chi to defend yourself if that's what you are after... and you'll probably live till you're 90

[Dauragon]

Hi all I'm a complete newbie to this forum.

I do tai chi and It is very practical for health.

For martial arts it is also very practical but to be able to competently fight using tai chi as a martial art requires at least 20 years of practice in the art (master Kumar frantzis says)

However I use a lot of the principles from tai chi in my wado-ryu classes and I find this effective.

I feel tai chi has definitely improved my balance, coordination, flexibility and speed which has helped me in my external martial arts.

A lot of people are under the misconception that they can just practice the form for an hour or so a day and expect to be able to gain the high level fighting skills tai chi has to offer, this is not the case, whilst an hour a day would be excellent for maintaining health into old age, hours a day are required to become a competent tai chi fighter.

Its just like running, whilst a few miles a week may be good for maintaining general fitness,
to become a marathon runner requires significantly more effort/ practice etc.

I have also found that unfortunately tai chi has been badly corrupted and watered down in the west. a good example of this is the taoist tai chi society, they have no understanding of the internal components of tai chi and anyone can be an instructor in it provding they know the basics of the external alignments.

I do tai chi for health and borrow some of the principles from it for karate. I am definitely not competent enough to use it as a primary martial art.

at the very least I do feel that tai chi would accompany any external martial art well and that it would help improve anyone in the aspects i mentioned above, flexibility balance etc.


-D

[Andy Pandy]

Ok, thanks guys, there have been some realy usefull replies here and i'm very glad I posted the question. I have decided to do Tai Chi but I am definitly going to want to find a place that covers all the areas rather than going to just the "watered down" classes that are so common place today. The problem now is that I am going to find it very difficult to find a decent school like that near enough for me to get to, so I might not be able to do it after all, in which case i'll have to find another art that I can do near by.

Secondly, unfortunatly, I was attacked on saturday by 5 bigger people. All they were after was to beat the hell out of me they diddn't even ask for money or my phone or anything, they just came right up, surrounded me, and started hitting me. The first 2 punches they threw hit me cus I was in a bit of shock about gettin surrounded by scary ****s, but after that I managed to defend myself without being hit to hard again, the only things that got through were weak insignificant punches. Anyway, I mannaged to shock them a bit I think by getting one in a headlock and throwing another to the ground by pulling his hood over his head and pulling him down onto the ground. And that allkowed me to get out from the middle of them, and then they all ran away.

Now, although I mannaged to fight them off once, if my mate (who ran away) haddn't called the police I think they would have been more persistant and I don't think I could have defended myself and I would probably be badly injured, if I survived! That has scared me into wanting to learn martial arts now, and to learn it fast. I know what this sounds like but I know that it takes a very long time to be good at martial arts. I am willing to put allot of hours into a each day and I know that I will not get good from doing this, but I believe I could get good enough at it to be able to defend myself in a cicumstance. It is just too much of a risk to take for me now to not be able to defend myself like that.

What I need to ask you lot is, what martial arts or combat training would be a good thing to do to boost my abilitys while I do another martial art more to my liking long term?

[TkdWarrior]

sorry to hear about that andy pandy... there's NOT MUCH you can do in those situation

For martial arts it is also very practical but to be able to competently fight using tai chi as a martial art requires at least 20 years of practice in the art (master Kumar frantzis says)
if this is any true then it's not worth learning... well if i remember right Yang Lu Chan learnt tai chi from chen family for about 5-7 yrs n after that he become undefeatable... don't tell me Yang was some sort of Super Genius or Super gifted...
sorry mate i don't buy 20 yr theory even if Bruce Kumar says so...

i m myself doing Tai Chi for quite some time. i don't think i hav learnt it completely but saying so irks me a bit.

wat exactly you mean by "Understanding of Internal Components of Tai Chi"???
-TkdWarrior-

[Dauragon]

Yang Lu Chan spent 18 years to finish his study of tai chi from Chen Chang Xing. This was before he went around and defeated other schools.

Also remember that Master Yang worked for hours on tai chi and he was learning from a master himself.

In the west tai chi masters are few and far between and obviously learning from a master will accelerate the learning process.

also Bruce Kumar is a Tai Chi Chuan lineage disciple and is the only Westerner recognized by Beijing, China as a master of the internal healing arts.


http://www.plumblossom.net/TaiChi/yangluchan.htm

I appologise for not making myself clear.

What I meant was that it takes years of practice to get the superlative fighting abilities which tai chi has to offer e.g. fa jing (discharging energy) etc. and that studying tai chi for a only a few years will not suddenly allow a practioner to possess the fighting abilities of a tai chi master.

Also regarding taoist tai chi, the form was developed by Master Moy lin shin for westen bodies because he noticed that the typical westerners lifestyle was poor i.e. we have terrible posture and we slouch etc. and consequently it is not as pure as the original forms taught in china etc (yang, wu etc.)

Since Master Moy died the taoist tai chi society have actually changed some of the moves which has corrupted the original form which master moy taught.

What I meant by internal components of tai chi (amoungst others)was the things which happen internally and are not easily visible (or not at all visible) e.g. the opening and closing of all the joints, the spinal pump, the chi flow etc
none of which is taught in the Taoist tai chi society, in fact they do not even mention the chi flow at all.

-D

[Mike Flanagan]

Originally posted by Andy Pandy
What I need to ask you lot is, what martial arts or combat training would be a good thing to do to boost my abilitys while I do another martial art more to my liking long term?

I believe that something like boxing or Thai boxing would probably give some of the best immediate results - ie. something that teaches you to be more stoic, to be able to take a blow and to be able to give it out, in a short space of time. Each art has its limitations though and I would, personally, want to supplement or even replace these particular arts with something else in the medium to long term.

There are many excellent martial arts. You have to decide for yourself, from those that you see, which best addresses the realities of physical assault.

Mike

[Andy Pandy]

I am already doing Thai Boxing and have done it for a while now but it's just not the thing I need, I don't want to take hits, I want to NOT take hits, and I mannaged reasonably well during the attack but i'm not happy with the fact I was hit at all by a bunch of unskilled street thugs. In a 1v1 situation I was never hit, but when there are more than one opponant I need something more than Thai Boxing... it's just not the same as other martial arts.

[Cain]

I want to NOT take hits

Take CKD :D



Hmm.....multiple attackers....as far as I know no art can prepare you for that except maybe stavit ;)

Best thing is to avoid it, no one likes to get messed up by a gang of street thugs

Sorry, dunno much about taichi except the ying and the yang :(

So don't take me too seriously ;)

|Cain|

[Sonshu]

I certainly had my eyes open'd :eek:

Cain you are right no art can teach you fool proof techniques on a 1-2-1 basis let alone multiple attacks.

It could be the school of Thai Boxing that was more thugish rather than the style. However it is a physical style and as you said it might not be what you were looking for, I loved it though.

SONSHU

[TkdWarrior]

ok gotcha daurgon...
it does takes time to develop fajing n all...
i'll stay with you on that... but the andy is talking about just fighting ability not Being Master in Tai Chi.
-TkdWarrior-

[Andy Pandy]

Sh!t, and it is now more important than ever, or maybe it's not important at all anymore. I was kinda interviewed by the BBC about the incedent, and I mentioned that I faught back against these people and that I mannaged to get away. And this has damaged the Meadows (the place where it happened) "street cred" and now pretty much most people in the Meadows are after me, and it's full of people with knifes and guns and stuff, it's the worst place in nottingham. It's full of gangs and stuff, and they know what road I live on, who I am, what I look like etc.... (cus some **** I used to go to school with told them).

I am realy in the sh!t, I am in realy serious trouble and I can't move out cus my life is here. These people really have no sense of right and wrong and would stab someone or shoot someone without even blinking.

Dunno what to do, i'm fuc|<ed... nice talkin to you guys.

[Mad Yakker]

I have heard that dispite it's relitivly slow and pasive look, Tai Chi is one of the most effective martial arts forms there is. Is this true? It's just I had thought of doing Tai Chi before but I dismissed it as not being practicle enough. :p)

Pls watch these video at this website http://www.taichischoolofgentleexercise.com/ before deciding TCC is practical??
Goto footage on e left column n click on it n look under Master Huang's video...

[RobP]

You might want to look at
www.systemauk.com

It's a soft style that is more immediately practical than tai chi and covers a wider range of situations in the training.

[David]

If you've got 15 mins then http://www.taiji.de/taiji/head5e_17/tv2.htm shows some pretty cool tai chi including speed, jing, power, balance, pushhands, sparring and multiple opponents.

Tai chi is often watered down with instructors doing a weekend certificate then going out to help old people spend their rainy afternoons. These teachers are easy to spot and avoid. Just ask them about the martial side, the 'chuan' (fist/boxing) in tai chi chuan and whether they have it. I have spoken to a tai chi teacher who had no idea it was a martial art...

Like Aikido, Bagua is also designed for multiple opponents with extreme body twisting allowing the practitioner to weave in and out of the aggressors whacking them bigtime. Bagua is more down-to-earth than Tai chi but still quite internal and still takes a relatively long time to 'get'.

Reading about your personal circumstance, it seems you're living life wrong. There's no need to be surrounded by violence in the UK. You say your life is there: that reminds me of "koyaanisqatsi" which is Hopi Indian for "A state of life that calls for another way of living". None of my business except you posted it and this is my take on it. ;)

Rgds,
David

[Sonshu]

I am a big sceptic of most things and Tai Chi was one of them that I was not keen on - until I meet someone who could use it and then I was a convert.

It bolts on well to his boxing skills and he moves his Tai Chi well with it - is that because of his boxing I guess but it blended well.

[aikiMac]

make sure it's not just a school that teaches the Yang form, this is the first form and with the popularity of Tai Chi it is the one most commonly taught. Make sure that there are steps to reach the other styles of Chen, Wu, Sun, Baguah, and Xing-i.
I thought Baguah and Xing-i are different martial arts, but anyway, I second this opinion. My understanding is that Yang style is tai chi chuan minus the "chuan" (boxing) part. It doesn't have martial applications but it's an excellent exercise for better health. In contrast, the Chen style, and other styles, still have the combative components, and indeed, Chen tai chi and these other tai chi's can work quite well in a street fight.

[shootodog]

I have heard that dispite it's relitivly slow and pasive look, Tai Chi is one of the most effective martial arts forms there is. Is this true? It's just I had thought of doing Tai Chi before but I dismissed it as not being practicle enough. I understand the need for the more spiritual and mental side to martial arts rather than just the external side of things and I realy want a martial art that is guaranteed to cover those areas as well as just the physical side.

Also, I was thinking of doing Aikido to complement Tai Chi Chuan as it looks like a very good art and one that would suit me well. What can you tell me about Aikido. No detail needed realy, just a general over-view of what it is like, the style of combat it teaches, wheather it is more physical/mental/spiritual based etc...

(I would have posted this on the specific forums for these arts but I had to put them both in the same post)
(The real reason I did it is because the General Topics get more reads than the Style Specific topics :p)


yes it is practical. dwellers of mt. wu dan say it is. i wouldn't mess with them.

but seriously, it is. my brother teacher in kali de leon showed me how tai chi is effective combatively.

try searching for the mad man earl montague.

[snake_vs_crane]

I would say that as a whole the art isnt practical, why? because the majority of "tai chi" being taught today has nothing to do with combat, and a lot of the combat stuff is too up itself to move into the modern age, but if its trained well and realistically then sure, its as effective and practical as the next art.

[David]

My understanding is that Yang style is tai chi chuan minus the "chuan" (boxing) part.
That's not my understanding at all. I did some Yang and talked with others who did other styles. The other styles sounded more firm/fast or direct but that's just their different approach. A mate of mine did a form which he said 'was like karate'!

There are two Yang schools local to me which do the 'chuan'.

Rgds,
David

[Mad Yakker]

IMy understanding is that Yang style is tai chi chuan minus the "chuan" (boxing) part. It doesn't have martial applications but it's an excellent exercise for better health.

R u sure aiki, pls visit http://www.taichischoolofgentleexercise.com/ to check up e martial applications footage! :)

[aikiMac]

That's not my understanding at all. I did some Yang and talked with others who did other styles. The other styles sounded more firm/fast or direct but that's just their different approach. A mate of mine did a form which he said 'was like karate'!

There are two Yang schools local to me which do the 'chuan'.

Rgds,
David
I am glad to hear that. I wish that sort of Yang school was available in my neighborhood. It would change the impression that Yang necessarily equals what grandparents do at the YMCA.

[moononthewater]

Tai Chi is very effective if you practise the martial side of the art if you are doing it from a health angle do not expect it to work in the street. You also need to experiment with it i wander around different martial clubs either of Chinese or japanese origin or i go to seminars. I am not saying it is a 100% sucess but it does work for me. Thats all that counts it wont work for every one and i will admit being originally a karate man it took me along time to get my head around its philosophy but i would not go back to karate.