Heian Sandan

[pabloco]

I have a question about the slow tate shuto uke which comes toward the end of Heian Sandan.

In my particular offshoot of Shotokan we have been taught that the left hand should just move from the hip back to its normal resting place ie slightly higher and with the back of the hand toward the floor.

Rob Redmond on his excellent Shotokan Planet (http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/kata/heian3.html) site says that it should reach under the right arm and then draw back - this is more consistent with what you whould normally do with the non-striking arm and seems to make more sense application wise - often the other arm is pulling the opponent towards you.

I'm interested to hear what others do - not just Shotokanistas, I'd like to know what the move is in the corresponding Pinan kata.

Cheers

Pablo

[Kosokun]

Am I correct in thinking that you're referring to what you do after the last backfist strike and before the left step punch?

Rob

[pabloco]

Yes, that's the one.

[Kosokun]

Ok, now that i'm on the same page.....
We don't do the tate shuto thing in Shito Ryu. We just do the backfist, leave the fist out and then step punch.

Rob

[Saz]

We don't do the Shoto Uke in Pinan Sono San Kyokusinkai either. After the last backfist, we pull the hand back, do a Jun tsuki cover, step thru and do Gyaku Tsuki :)

What is the actually difference between the terms Heian and Pinan? As far as I can seem, there is little or no difference in the actual kata istself?

[Kosokun]

Originally posted by Kyokushin_girl

What is the actually difference between the terms Heian and Pinan? As far as I can seem, there is little or no difference in the actual kata istself?

The characters are the same. Pinan is the pronounciation in the Okinawan Dialect. Heian is the Japanese pronounciation of the exact same characters.

[dinshaw]

In shukokai we leave the fist out, then step through and punch.

[Melanie]

Hahaha - after polite prodding from Pablaco, (he read my article) here's my response.

After the final uraken (backfist strike) we do the same as you described as before - with a slow tate shuto uke and bringing the left arm back to the hip, then left punch.

Melanie

[jg_coleman]

Woohoo Heian Sandan! My favorite!

I've always seen this move done as a claw hand, not a form of shutouke, but that could just be semantics.. ;-)

The way I do this is from the overhead uraken, fist to hip, pause just long enough to separate the hand to hip and grab techniques, then the hand goes out into the grab. The path it takes is pretty close to just moving it straight out, but with a bit of an arc to the front side of my body before it goes out. My right hand moves from the fist-on-hip to a standard pullinghand position at the same time, locking down just as I hit the extension. When my left hand extends to its ending position, I move straight into oizuki with no separation in timing. It's almost like i'm just reaching out to grab someone to pull them into my oizuki.

I used to do something like what you're describing.. Sort of like the "scraping" techniques in Heian Godan and Bassai that are followed up with the mikazukigeri/enpi. I eventually switched over after watching a few of my seniors practicing.

Jim

[pabloco]

Originally posted by Kyokushin_girl
do a Jun tsuki cover

Can you tell me what the Junzuki cover is like?

Cheers

paul

[pabloco]

Originally posted by jg_coleman
then the hand goes out into the grab. The path it takes is pretty close to just moving it straight out, but with a bit of an arc to the front side of my body before it goes out. My right hand moves from the fist-on-hip to a standard pullinghand position at the same time, locking down just as I hit the extension. When my left hand extends to its ending position, I move straight into oizuki with no separation in timing. It's almost like i'm just reaching out to grab someone to pull them into my oizuki.

Do you have your right and left mixed up here, or is it me? We do the final uraken with the right hand, return to hip, then push the same hand forward (relative to body) and to the right. When the right hand is at its fullest extent its step through and oizuki.

But it's what the other arm does that I want to know, ie the one that goes on to do the oizuk1.

Cheers

paul

[jg_coleman]

ok.. so I feel really dumb now.

Yes, I got the hands mixed up. Should've payed more attention in kindergarden....

Basically, what I was trying to say was that after the last stomp-elbow-uraken, my *right* hand goes more or less straight out, and my *left* hand goes directly into pulling-hand position, no detours anywhere.

Jim

[Kosokun]

Originally posted by jg_coleman
ok.. so I feel really dumb now.

Yes, I got the hands mixed up. Should've payed more attention in kindergarden....

Jim

Two hardest things in karate, I always say, are Right and Left! :-D

Rob

[Ozebob]

Hi All,

Interesting kata this one. The leg raise and stomp doesn't exist in the Pinan (Rob?) and the elbow action is often mistaken for a block.

The application I favour is to perform a hip throw on the turn that precedes the sequence in question. I use a kake uke movement to catch and latch on to an incoming grab/push/punch before applying the elbow against their elbow joint to effect an arm bar. The back fist is back up should the restraint go wrong for any number of reasons.

The following horizontal shuto-uke is in a separate sequence to the elbow action sequence IMO. It is a grab and bash, followed with a throw and smash : )

Regards,

[Freeform]

I perform it the same way as Melanie described, bringing the last uraken back to the hip and doing a slow tate shuto uke.

When you guys are doing your uraken, do you do it in a straight out line, or in a circular manner to affect a grab?

Thanx

[pabloco]

Circular - round by the face and then down - sort of a cross between a uraken and a hammerfist.

Whaddayou do with the left hand though whilst this is going on?

Paul

[Freeform]

Well, I always left it on my hip in a 'headlock' fashion, although I'm beginning to think this could be improved upon.

Thanx

[Saz]

We do it in a straight line, directly after the shoulder/hip throw. We bring our hand from the hips and do the uraken from there. We leave the other hand on the hip while we're doing this too.

[Kosokun]

Originally posted by Ozebob
[B]Hi All,

Interesting kata this one. The leg raise and stomp doesn't exist in the Pinan (Rob?) and the elbow action is often mistaken for a block.


Not in Shito Pinans or Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu's Pinans. I don't recall seeing Shorinkan Shorin Ryu doing them.


Rob

[Freeform]

Having seen my Aikido Instructor perform a similar technique, the throw (in the Pinan version) now looks to like a throw from someone grabbing your belt from behind. At the end of the kata, there is the empi and over the shoulder strike (I forget what its called in Japanesse... help!), I've heard this described as an elbow and punch to the face of somebody behind you, but it is more obviously a hip technique.

Thanx

[Kosokun]

Originally posted by Freeform
At the end of the kata, there is the empi and over the shoulder strike (I forget what its called in Japanesse... help!), I've heard this described as an elbow and punch to the face of somebody behind you, but it is more obviously a hip technique.

Thanx

Release from rear bear hug.

Rob