badai serei, Muay thais grandfather

[Thaikicker]

hmm, i'm new here and just looking around I noticed that there's no topic on the khmer martial art badai serei, where Muay Thai orginated from. Does anybody know of this art?:p

[Joseki]

no i dont but would be intreasted to know about it

[Thaikicker]

well i'm going to start off like this. Muay Thai is actually a Cambodian martial art, known as badai serei, and also know as Muay khmer. Muay Thai only came out when the khmers were going through war for 30 years. Lives were more important than a martial art.
Muay means number 1 in khmer. Don't be fooled otherwise, cause Muay in Thai has no meaning, it was given meaning cause of the American media wanted to know what it meant. If you were to win a fight what would be the best way to taunt the loser. Yelling at the loser and saying i'm number 1, and so this is were Muay Thai came from, meaning thai number 1.

In the 6th century BC. a country was forming and was known as Kampuja, this would be the begining of the KHMER EMPIRE.
The khmers were very fierce, smart and strong people. They had many different types of martial arts, and one of the strongest was badai serei, meaning freestyle fighting in khmer.
The main purpose of badai serei was to kill you're enemy quick, the muay thai you people see is just the first phase of training. There are 5 phase in badai serei, the last 2 are weapons. The elbows, knees, and head was a main weapon, and body conditioning. These are the basic that you people train in.
When phase 1 is mastered you move into phase 2. This consist of grappling and bone breaking techinques added with phase 1. e.g When you have a person in the forearm lock around his head. It was meant to hold the person to knee and control. But adding phase 2, you are trained to twist his neck and snap it. another example is when you are kneeing the person you later thrust you're foot aiming for the knee cap, you're purpose is to break it, so he wouldn't be able to stand or walk.
Phase 3, this is the fuel that makes the khmers deadly. It's a psychological training. I only now bits of this, cause the gru (teachers in khmer, and there's only a few left in the world, I know of only 5, becuase of the khmer rouge regein) refuse to mention the secret. But the main purpose is to controll you're rage and unleash it at the enemy.
Phase 4 and 5 are weapons related, and it's a whole new matrial art in its self. training with swords, stick fighting, bows, and spears.
This is basicly how they achieved to become one of teh most feared race and becoming the KHMER EMPIRE in the 10th-14th century, even the chinese were scared. The KHMER EMPIRE spread out to the islands which is known as Indonesia, Burma, and the Philippines, they all have some form of khmer blood in them. Just look at there culture and fighting styles, it has changed because of island isolation but there are things that are still there that are khmer.
The chinese were smart, they used the art of war against them. They sent spies to KHMER EMPIRE, later through the years more chinese moved in and eventually the country seperated and was called Siam (now known as Thailand). The khmer culture can still be seen, the foods, the written language, art, etc. It's all from the khmer people. Later through the centuries, Siam broke up and became Laos. That's why they speak in the same tongue.

Muay Thai is Khmer and the proof is in the temples of Cambodia all carved in stone. the head band has spells (Yantra) written in khmer, the history is also written in the chinese sand scripts claiming that the khmes used fierce fighting styles. All the tatoos and the music is all khmer.
Every thing you see in Thailand is actually khmer related, the clothing, dancing, foods etc. so when you see something that's thai, it's actually khmer.
I'm Thai and have little khmer blood in me, but I know where I came from. Even my own people have threatened me for my life and my families, cause they refuse to give the khmers the credit. My wife is khmer and they feel I have sold out in a sense.
You got to give credit where credit is due. I'll just leave it at that for you to think

[Freeform]

Hi Thaikicker welcome to the forum. I'm sorry to hear about the persecussion you've suffered, is this the reason you started to train in Martial Arts?

Anyway, that was a lot of information there, you seem to know your stuff. I've heard the term 'Krabee Krabong' used to discribe Thai weapon systems, do you know anything about this? Is it the used of sword and knife?

Thanx

[Thaikicker]

thnx for the welcome. I think you meant Krabi-Krabong? Yes this too is a khmer art. This is actually phase 4. It consist of swords, knives, a long staff with a knife at the end, clubs, two hand sword styles, and bows. When there is a dispute between leadership of a army they would fight in a round ring, with two coffins at each end. They would fight with two layers of silk clothing fitted on them, no buttons,no holes. Back then this acted like KEVLAR in bulletproof vest. It would start off with knives, and the silk would protect them from the jabbs, after I think 3 rounds or so it would move on to other weapons, and so on and so on. Phase 5 I just found out that it's only for the kings closest army troops. If you look at the stick fighting style in Indonesia, Burma, and the Philippines, this is what khmer fighting is like, cause their culture came from the khmers.
And before a fight they would to the death they would get tatoos of Yantra written in khmer (spells to give luck and what not).
Fighting in a ring also with 2 coffins is found in badai serei, when two fighters would fight to the death. They would rap their fists in rope and place it in broken glass. This acts as to cut the fighter, so he would basicily bleed to death in the ring. But theres a special training for this also. Back in the past when Siam(Thai) broke up from Cambodia they would have tournaments each year. And it would be in a city called Siem Riep (Siem is supposed to be Siam, the french couldn't spell, and riep means destroyed). Remember Muay Thai is basicily only 30-40 years old, cause it was given that name when brought to the Western world, and the media blew it up.
I could write more but I think you're getting bored, lol :)
I find the khmer culture so pure and rich it amazes me. Now archaeologist are even saying that the khmer culture is related to the Egypt and Mayans. If you really want to learn more of the khmer arts you should go to the Angkor temples. I myself is trying to learn to speak khmer, and find more of the culture.

[Phoenix]

Very interesting. Never heard of this before.

[TkdWarrior]

welcome to the forum...
great info u hav...thnx for sharing
tho i hav heard but didn't knew the meanings n the name "badai serei"

-TkdWarrior-

[dredleviathan]

Hi Thaikicker,

Very interesting information in your last 2 messages. Certainly I had not heard much about the Khmer history... in fact I think I only heard about it in terms of the language. Tell us more!

Do you know anything about the Burmese system of Bando? As far as I know it is a bit like what we call Muay Thai (not surprising considering hte proximity and history between Thailand and Burma) but includes the use of the headbutt I think... I've also heard that there are animal sub-systems (Python, Boar etc etc etc).

However when I've asked my friend's Dad (as he's Burmese) he says he never heard of it?

I look forward to hearing more from you.

Dred

[godofghosts]

The Ancient Indian Civilization....that's all I have to say.

I actually wrote a beautiful long (I mean looong) post but the GOD DAMN PIECE OF SH*T dohickey said that I didn't log in when I F*CKEN did already...so just do some research and you'll understand what I mean.

P.S. Indian like Hindi not Native American.

[godofghosts]

here's a web page to begin ur research with:

http://home.comcast.net/~radhac/kdtkalarippayattuintro.html

but do more research, 'cuz u'll be damn interested ( I promise )

[informah]

both u r wrong!

its Kabri-Kabrong :D

[YODA]

Originally posted by informah
both u r wrong!

its Kabri-Kabrong :D

I'm hoping you mean Krabi Krabong :D

[informah]

nope i mean kabri kabrong..

unless the website of my school is wrong whi9ch is highly possible..

theres more stuff bout the history on the site

goto
www.houseofmuaythai.com
and click on muay thai

[informah]

hey i JUst realized that its the worlds largest thai boxing school

COOL

[YODA]

I guess it can either be spelled both ways or your webmaster's dyslexic :D

A google search reveals 2,380 hits for my spelling and 52 for yours :D

[informah]

hehehe ill ask suchart today then hell settle it once an for all

[Khun Kao]

I, for one, am interested in some references that back up these claims. Books, websites...?

Khun Kao

[dredleviathan]

Hi Khun Kao,

So are you asking for evidence about the claims that Muay Thai is a derivative from the Khmer art... or about the spellings of Krabi-Krabong, Kabri-Kabrong, Grabi-Grabong... or the various other spellings I've seen?

Personally I feel its a real shame for Muay Thai to succomb to the martial arts virus of "creation myths".

Dred

[AsSaSiN]

Muay Thai IS a portion of Krabi-Krabong (sp), but Krabi-Krabong has a weapons and groundfighting system as well (as per Sandy Holt). SokKlab, how does Muay Boran fit into this? Is it a part of Krabi-Krabong as well? From what i already know, its more of a father to Muay Thai as it focuses on strikes, but has a wider range? That would make K-K the grandfather :D

[dredleviathan]

I've also heard the term Pahuyuth used to describe the whole range of Thai martial arts (I think - although I can't remember where I heard it). From what I have remember I think this included Muay Thai, Muay Boran, Ling Lom (which may be simialr to Muay Boran), Krabi-Krabong and Awud Thai.

This is just from my notes and I have no references to where it came from - bad practice on my part!

Anyone?

[dredleviathan]

Oh and as I understood it Muay Thai and Krabi-Krabong exist alongside one another rather than one being a portion of another... although of course there are similarities and elements common to each. I guess this suggests that they may stem from a common source.

So perhaps:


Common source (whatever it may be called) => Muay Thai (martial sport) + Krabi-Krabong (weaponry) + Muay Boran (martial art)?

Again just postulation.

[Khun Kao]

I'm interested in a little proof regarding the claims that Muay Thai was derived from the Khmer arts. I've heard this claim before, but aside from a few random posts on the internet, I have not seen any references to actual text. I truly don't care about the correct spelling of Krabi-Krabong b/c it is only correctly spelled in Thai letters. Any English (or other language) translation is purely subjective.

But I am also interested in more information regarding the History of the Thai arts and how they all relate to one another. I have been coming more and more to the understanding that what the rest of us know as Muay Thai is merely a COMPROMISE of the wide variety of Thai arts for the sake of sport fighting (and safety).

There are a wide variety of Thai arts:

Muay Boran
Muay Chao Cher
Lerdrit
Krabi Krabong
Lim Lum
Awud Thai

Etcetera, etc, and so on...

Now, my understanding is that all these wide variety of arts are often lumped under the name "Muay Thai", which is kind of like saying "Kung Fu" when referring to Chinese Martial Arts.

Another thing I'm trying to understand is Krabi-Krabong's relationship to the other Thai arts. Apparantly, the Thai's view Krabi-Krabong as the base of all Thai martial arts. Perhaps Krabi-Krabong is the art that most closely resembles the battlefield arts of old?

It is my understanding that one can view Krabi-Krabong in much the same way that we view traditional Jujutsu in Japan. Jujutsu is apparantly the "all-encompassing" martial art of Japan from which the remaining arts are all derived, such as Kendo, Judo, Aikido, Sumo, Iaido, etc. Each of the other martial arts specializes, and therefore has developed more advanced techniques within their specific areas of expertise...

Kendo specializes in sword techniques

Iaido specilizes in the specific sword techniques of drawing, cutting, and resheathing your blade.

Judo and Sumo specialize in grappling techniques

Ninjutsu specializes in stealth and trickery

You get the idea. Perhaps Krabi-Krabong is therefore similar to Jujutsu, in that it, too, represents the "all-encompassing" Thai martial arts? Maybe each of the individual systems developed from certain fighters developing and teaching areas of specialization within Krabi-Krabong?

Muay Boran is a style of bare-knuckle Muay Thai

Muay Chao Cher is essentially like modern MMA fighting

I am not familiar with Lerdrit, Lim Lum, or Awud Thai, though I've *heard* of them. I don't know what those styles teach.

I have to admit that this is merely conjecture on my part. I have not researched this extensively, but it is just how I've pieced together what I have read. For a long time, I truly felt it was erroneaous to claim that Muay Thai was merely a derivative of Krabi-Krabong, because it had appeared to me that the two arts had actually been developing side-by-side for centuries. But the more that I learn, the more that my above idea seems to be closer to the truth.

Khun Kao