CMA Forms...a waste of time?

[Andy Murray]

Hi CMA people.

I don't know if any of you have been following the various 'Kata is a pile of poo' threads going on just now, but I'd like your thoughts on the key issues raised, and whether you feel they apply to CMA forms.



Apart from two of our most experienced Karate people, there are many who are saying;

1/ Time spent practicing forms should be spent on other things.

2/ Forms are full of useless movements.

3/ Forms teach you bad habits.

4/ There is nothing to be learned from forms that can't be gotten more easily from some other kind of training.

Since Karate and therefore TKD have their origins in the CMA in the first place, has something been lost in the process......?


N.B.
Any posts which refer to forms as Kata will be deleted!

[pgm316]

I'm heavily biased because I don't enjoy doing patterns.

But I prefer the CMA forms!

Often seem shorter, simpler, teach a certain thing while being more to the point. A big genralisation I know, but you know what the Japanese are like for going to the extreme!

The basic Wing Chun form is great, with 8 "bits" to it, you can teach it more or less in a couple of hours and it hold most of the WC techniques in it.

But I just hate the second form! More like a dodgy pop tune dance routine, even thinking about it iritates me!

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by pgm316

1/ The basic Wing Chun form is great, with 8 "bits" to it, you can teach it more or less in a couple of hours and it hold most of the WC techniques in it.

2/ But I just hate the second form! More like a dodgy pop tune dance routine, even thinking about it iritates me!

1/ Would you agree that the first form is completely full of applicable technique, and has no wasted movements?

2/ Depending on your response to the above, maybe you are missing the point in the second form?

3/ I raised four topics in the original post.




1/ Time spent practicing forms should be spent on other things.

2/ Forms are full of useless movements.

3/ Forms teach you bad habits.

4/ There is nothing to be learned from forms that can't be gotten more easily from some other kind of training.

[johndoch]

1/ Time spent practicing forms should be spent on other things.

Why should this be the case I enjoyed doing forms when I was at Lau Gar. They can be done anywhere with power, grace, speed control etc and you can do them on your own as part of an exercise routine. Even when I was at Kickboxing there were forms made out of basic kickboxing skills. The form was as follows jab-cross-reverse front kick-reverse round kick-Lead hook and turn 90o . This was done four times and you completed a square. It could have been done with rhythm as in shadow boxing.

Fair enough if fightings all you want out of your art then you probably wont get it.

2/ Forms are full of useless movements.

Disagree with this one the movements too me are a mix of exercises to encourage posture, balance etc as well as fighting applications.

3/ Forms teach you bad habits.

No the individual picks up bad habits by not understanding forms correctly. Its like when you pull your hand back to your hip obviously you don’t fight like that but I’ve seen some Lau gar guys do it in points fighting. I believe the hand at the hip represents the person in a neutral stance not ready to fight.

4/ There is nothing to be learned from forms that can't be gotten more easily from some other kind of training.

Again this is down to the individual I personally don’t care if people don’t like forms I do. Now that I attend a class which is more of a mixed style of martial arts that doesn’t practice forms I still find that I can complete the first 2 Lau Gar forms start to finish but I tend to make up my own forms using what I know.

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Andy Murray


1/ Time spent practicing forms should be spent on other things.

If pure fighting ability is your aim then probably so!

I forget who said it, but comparing training to onions, the forms do give you more layers and maybe a better mental understanding.

Its getting the right balance, I'm happy spending a small(ish) amount of my time doing them.

2/ Forms are full of useless movements.

Maybe some movements[?] May depend on the art you practice!

First WC form is full of applicable technique, and has no wasted movements definitely! This is why and like it and the reason I don't like the second.

Maybe the second tries to do too much, too complex, un realistic, too time consuming.

3/ Forms teach you bad habits.

Forms teach you habbits, are they good or bad?

Again, I would not like to get into the habbits of the second WC form. I can imagine studying this for a long time would make you a WORSE fighter!

4/ There is nothing to be learned from forms that can't be gotten more easily from some other kind of training.

Maybe, different routes to the same path etc.

Just make sure you get a good travel guide and the path you choose heads in the direction you want to go :D

[Andy Murray]

First WC form is full of applicable technique, and has no wasted movements definitely! This is why and like it and the reason I don't like the second.

Maybe you have been taught the first form well, as it is the easiest to comprehend, and instruction in the second form could be equally inspiring if your Instructor was able?

[pgm316]

Maybe your right, probably me being sulky at having to learn hard things :D

I just feel its tries to do too much in a certain way, I like the first because it doesn't, pretty much leaving it up to your interpretation.

What are your thoughts on the second pattern Andy?

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by pgm316


What are your thoughts on the second pattern Andy?

I'd be happy to pick you up, and take you to someone who can show you far better than I. Then of course, you'll be questioning the third form in the same way you have the second.

[pgm316]

Your TOO kind, I need to spend more time on it before I could really have any indepth verdict on it!

I can't even remember the first one properly, the main guy gets so wound up with me as I stand there looking lost. I should know it after 8/9 years of WC..........

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by pgm316


1/ Your TOO kind, I need to spend more time on it before I could really have any indepth verdict on it!

2/ I can't even remember the first one properly, the main guy gets so wound up with me as I stand there looking lost. I should know it after 8/9 years of WC..........

1/ Yet you've already given a verdict of it?

2/ Yes you should. I guess you have been wasting your time then?

[keef]

Arrrrh not this again ;-)

1) Forms are only part of a system although an important part (of our system), time should be spent on them but only an amount of allocated time. Too much of anything is bad for you!

2) The form that I practice ( only one so far, excluding chi gung) certainly has usefull techniques that work for my body type. The techniques though are only a guide the main point of the form is to provide theory which can be analyized and provides you with the "distinct flavour" of your style. The form also teaches how to flow from one technique to another.

3) If misunderstood yes but if taught correctly it should not. I agree with Johndoch on this one. Although in the form I study presently the hand rarely comes to the waist when it does it has a reason for example releasing techniques.

4) The form in our system Bung Bo provides the 12 Keywords of the system, these could be taught seperatly which they also are. The form is taught to the student whom then has a reference of the style, many theories all in one package to refer to rather than hard to remeber individual segments. The keywords can then be extracted and analyised in the students own time further and in the lesson. We often in pairs disect the form, discuss techniques and theories (advantages and disadvantages), then put them into practice thus one becomes a master of the form rather than the form mastering you.

In essence the form provides you with the flavour and theory of the style but eventually if taught correctly will not confine you as many believe but provide you with freedom to express yourself within your choosen flavour!

[NielStewart]

1/ Time spent practicing forms should be spent on other things.

Depends what you enjoy, it seems that a lot of newer/freestyle sport variants agree, whereas it seems the more traditional styles still emphasise forms.

2/ Forms are full of useless movements.

Depends on who teaches you! and what forms they teach. Depends on their understanding/interpretation of the form and in turn your own

3/ Forms teach you bad habits.

The potential for gaining bad habits exist in every aspect of training not just in forms.

4/ There is nothing to be learned from forms that can't be gotten more easily from some other kind of training.

Is easy why we train? do we want martial or art? or at which point are we happy to compromise between the two?

[PantherFist]

The forms in the Choy Lee Fut system teach you practical combinations (looks similar in some respects to western boxing due to the circular nature of our punches), and also because the forms tend to be very long they are an excellent form of cardiovascular training and excellent form of body conditioning.

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
1/ Yet you've already given a verdict of it?

2/ Yes you should. I guess you have been wasting your time then?

Good points! :D

Strange thing is the correlation between people that like doing them and people that see value in them.

I know maybe 10 forms, more if you include the short ones that are more like two man drills. WC, Hsing Hi, Staff, Sword, Tai Chi...

But because I don't like em much, I don't practice enough, it takes me a while to get back into them and probably get bits wrong and I couldn't explain the exact meaning of every move.

I'd probably get far more out of them if I enjoyed them more, a point not mentioned so much!

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by pgm316
I'd probably get far more out of them if I enjoyed them more, a point not mentioned so much!

So you'd enjoy them more if you got more out of them?

Why don't you get much out of them?

Is it because you don't practice them, and can't remember them?

Not chastising you mate, but you dug the hole.

[Spike]

1/ Time spent practicing forms should be spent on other things.

To me this argument would seem to lead unrounded training. You must remember that forms aren`t everything there is to a MA. Forms can teach you a lot of you look at them and think about them. If you get nothing from forms you`re probably neither thinking nor feeling what you`re doing, you`re simply doing the movements because you`ve been told to. The other reason you might get nothing for forms is because you`ve decided forms are useless and so you don`t believe they help you with anything

2/ Forms are full of useless movements.

I can only assume that the people who hold this view have seen very different forms from me. I have hardly seen any moves in a form that is useless, i admit that some of the moves have "questionable" practical value, but I`ve always looked at forms as a way of training you`re body to move in a certain way, you do your forms over and over and over again and then you do drills or sparring or bag work, and if tyou have a good instructor, you, enjoy the form, you are treating the form correctly, you should findyou`re techniques are much improved from how they would be withouth repeatedly doing the same movements.

Oh and if I hear one more person say "but you wouldn`t stand in horse stance in a fight" I will not be held responsible for my actions.

3/ Forms teach you bad habits.

I don`t understand this, how can learning to move your body correctly teach you bad habits? Is it me that`s daft?


4/ There is nothing to be learned from forms that can't be gotten more easily from some other kind of training.

I know that just because somehting`s been done one way for centuries is no reason to keep it. That doesn`t mean that because something new comes along it`s great and you must throw out all traditions.

Just because those foolish Japanese/Korean/Fillipino MAists have not the wit to see the use of forms doean`t mean we decent honourable CMAists must follow suit

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
So you'd enjoy them more if you got more out of them?

Why don't you get much out of them?

Is it because you don't practice them, and can't remember them?

Not chastising you mate, but you dug the hole.

I've never liked doing forms, if I got more from them I doubt I'd like them more, probably spend more time on them. I spend little of my own time doing them but have spent plenty in class, until I began avoiding them to attend the more hands on sessions :)

Never felt they make me a better fighter! I do believe in practicing certain techniques alone to improve technique, I always do this a short combo type drills.

I could spend more time getting this perfect technique, but when it comes to sparring its not perfect technique, but good technique, aliveness, timing, fluid footwork and a good fighting strategy that counts.

[Spike]

"do believe in practicing certain techniques alone to improve technique, I always do this a short combo type drills."

What you seem to be saying here, if you think about it, is that you make up your own forms.
Funny argument against forms that.

"I could spend more time getting this perfect technique, but when it comes to sparring its not perfect technique, but good technique, aliveness, timing, fluid footwork and a good fighting strategy that counts."

so fluidity, good technique, wouldn`t you say good balance would help in sparring? all things you can learn from forms.

[SSJ1_Katrina]

as a new student of kung fu my opinion won't be the 'wisest' on the board, however i shall state it anyway, the one thing that my Sifu has taught me is that all the forms are important, even the salute- because of the meanings behind them. they are all fighting moves. i would never say they are a waste of time at all, but are fundamental for learning all other moves. but from there of course everyone must evolve and train with what they wish to focus on. in the end it comes down to the individual with what they feel helps them i guess.
with blessings,
Katrina

[stump]

I spent 8 years doing chinese martial arts and thanks to that quite a few forms. I have to say that I think the time I spent training them was wasted.

1/ Time spent practicing forms should be spent on other things.

Unfortunately i agree with this if the object of your training is to learn how to fight. If you're learning a martial art for teh mastery of teh arts sake then it's integral to your training

2/ Forms are full of useless movements.

Again see above! The way you strike in forms is not teh same way as you strike either a pad or an opponent. Also there is no reactive value to forms training

3/ Forms teach you bad habits.
following on from above I agree with this. The only way to learn to hit someone is to spar. Anyother way doesn't factor in the way people move and react when someone's trying to hit them.

4/ There is nothing to be learned from forms that can't be gotten more easily from some other kind of training.

FOrms fulfilled a purpose when things couldn't be written down...they were a physical alphabet of a particular martial art. We don't need to store information this way anymore so in my opinion to modern training they havevery little value.

my two cents anyway

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by stump
I spent 8 years doing chinese martial arts and thanks to that quite a few forms. I have to say that I think the time I spent training them was wasted.



Not fair to use 'insider info' on you Stump, but you'd do well to look at another CMA before your opinion sets too hard on this.

[Sonshu]

I found it my accident.

I will put my hand up and say I know little on Chinese Forms and to me they are the same as Kata.

Can someone please enlighten me?

I have seen WCKF forms and was not taken to them I will admit but to me there is not any difference from what I have seen so please give me a insight.

As this is a pro Form thread I will go easy on ya. All piss taking aside is my worry for what ever you want to call patterns etc is when people say "You have not understood them" this is such a wrong thing to say to people as because someone does not like them it does not mean they have not understood them. Also if you have Kazaa try downloading some of the Lau Guar forms from it. They are worth a look.

SONSHU - PS - GO STUMP - joke

[keef]

Sonshu,

I did 6 years of ITF Style TKD and one of my reasons for my losing interest in it too an extent was that no one rarely used any thing from the forms etc when fighting. The Northern Praying Mantis style of Kung Fu that I do so far the forms resemble very little to that of TKD tyle forms!

This is just our branch of the mantis style thought (7 star), when one says Kung Fu we mean any Chinese style of martial art (hundreds) which the styles vary greatly. So for one to say Kung Fu / Chinese forms are usefull / useless would be an impossible task as one would have to master hundreds of arts!

[Sonshu]

Difference between the Chinese forms and others - what makes them different?

SONSHU

[Greyghost]

Forms would only be useless if the CMA did not "get" anything out of them.

its individual.

like snowflakes...but without the drop in temperature.

[Spike]

You`ve not been in our training hall, then

[Sonshu]

Too mystical for me - what ever you on dude cut the dose!

Can anyone give me a tangable answer - as I thought the Forms were the same moves for all people who did that style in the training hall?

SONSHU

[Spike]

Absolutely

Dammit Fraser, you`d think it was Monks who started Kung Fu the way you go on

[Greyghost]

thanks spike...its not as if we practise the same style or anything.!!!!

the only difference between chinese form and other styles of kata..or rather the main difference is that the ....no..wait..there is no difference ...almost every form/kata/pattern is a set of attacks and defences used against imaginery opponents. The forms themselves vary dependant upon which style you practise....in my opinion CMA forms look more fluid than other arts, but as usual there will be people who will disagree.

hope this a slightly more tangible answer .!!!!!!

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Sonshu


1/ I will put my hand up and say I know little on Chinese Forms and to me they are the same as Kata.

2/ I have seen WCKF forms and was not taken to them I will admit but to me there is not any difference from what I have seen so please give me a insight.



1/ We'd really need someone who has extensive experience of both to comment here, bearing in mind that there is a far greater diversity within the CMA, than there is in the majority of Karate.

2/ I'll take a stand here, as the first form of Wing Chun has obvious application for 99% of it's content, and the remaining 1% is easily explained by those that know.

Look up Kevin Chan, who's a top WC Sifu in the south, and you'll find he's also rolled in pro MMA events as well. Or Wai Po Tang in the same area.

[Sonshu]

From what I see is the name. There is generally little difference as some are hard styles some softer and there is a school difference but from what I have seen thats about it.

Also I will say I am no expert on either.

Not seen enough CMA stuff to make a judgement but from what I have seen there are done softer and are more mobile but otherwise they appear to be again a name change.

Hence I would like someone who is suitably experienced to let me know?

Thanks for the notes Andy - I'll give it a look.

SONSHU

[Spike]

"Not seen enough CMA stuff to make a judgement "

Then what are you doing on the Kung Fu Forum?

Sound the alert! there`s an interloper trying to steal our secret CMA!

Don`t let him get away!!

[Sonshu]

I want to hear others views so what is your Spike?

Why are CMA forms different and better than Japanese ones?

SONSHU

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Sonshu

Why are CMA forms different and better than Japanese ones?



Go train some and find out.
I doubt you'd take anyones word for it.

Alternatively, look into the history of your Japanese patterns, and you may just find they have roots in the Southern Chinese Kung Fu systems, and it's entirely possible that something was lost in the translation over the years.

Of course, that's just the Southern systems, there's all the Northern systems too.

[WhiteWizard]

personally i like the one form i know it has helped me understand the uses of some of the techniques when used in conjunction with each other. not that it will teach you it for every situation you are in but it does help

[Sonshu]

Disapointed to see what you thought - I am not here to play devils advocate on this thread as I know little about it I am here to see what is said.

Saying I would not believe what I was told is a bit presumptuous isn't it?

I know a fair bit about Japanses kata and can understand exactly why in its day it was done.

I am just curious to see what you guys that you feel is different or improved from the forms/patterns that Japanese/Korean arts do? - still no examples to go on though?

I have seen some Lau Guar and Thai Chi stuff is it like this?

SONSHU

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Sonshu


1/ Disapointed to see what you thought - I am not here to play devils advocate on this thread as I know little about it I am here to see what is said.

2/ Saying I would not believe what I was told is a bit presumptuous isn't it?

3/ I know a fair bit about Japanses kata and can understand exactly why in its day it was done.

4/ I am just curious to see what you guys that you feel is different or improved from the forms/patterns that Japanese/Korean arts do? - still no examples to go on though?

5/ I have seen some Lau Guar and Thai Chi stuff is it like this?

SONSHU

1/ Read it how you like, after tearing my hair out on all the other Kata threads you've hijacked, I'm damned if you're going to polarise this one.

2/ Not at all, you need this proved to you, and this isn't going to happen on a forum.

3/ So any comment on a diluted Chinese origin then?

4/ This thread isn't 'Chinese vs Japanese forms'.

5/ Seeing stuff and doing stuff are entirely different. I suspect what you have seen is largely pants.

[Sonshu]

I chose to look at this cos I don't know much about it - hence I am looking for your help and because I did post a lot on the Kata forum does not mean I have hijacked it at all I thought this was what MAP was for?

I am asking for peoples views simply because I do not know enough about the CMA subject myself and hoped people would be willing to discuss it. Never have I taken any of this to heart and I am sorry that you have.

Also did I say the Lau Guar or Thai Chi forms bad but they were the only ones I have seen

True I do live by proof but I am only asking as that is all you can do on this forum as far as the history of Japanese kata coming from Chinese this is the first I have heard of it - I also hear there is a big rumor about martial arts derived from India and not the orient at all. As I don't know enough about this I could not say either way.

Just try and chill - I only asked for some info.

SONSHU

[Cain]

Sonshu,

It's kinda obvious to see why Andy answered that way if you read your own posts.....nothing personal b'fore ya jump on my head :D but several ppl have pointed this out to you....

One thing I see is have you ever questioned your your instructor about kata, you mentioned you feel strongly about this kinda thing but don't you think your sentiments would be shared better with your kata instructor?

you really expect someone to explain exactly CMA forms and that you will understand them? Seriously no offense meant but by looking at the posts in this thread itself it obviously seems you will jump at another long one in here, and that ain't gonna happen 'cause my thread rulez!!! :D

|Cain|

[Sonshu]

What I have tried to do is answer and discuss with equal viggor for the non benefits I have found of not doing Kata.

Thats all guys - nothing more - Andy has an issue with what I said but I am sure its been "mostly" diplomatic and I have not intended to offend anyone.

I am merely asking for peoples to educate me as I can not comment on CMA forms.

I have questioned a lot of Kata instructors on the subject - most of which are japanese art instructors and from my own findings is how I drew up my replyies. Many Korean as well, I do not have enough to form a credible oppinion on Chinese Martial arts hence I am here looking for views.

If you guys want I leave this section to you CMA guys I am cool with that and I am trying not to put anything to upset you guys in this reply but I believe in what I can see and also value peoples oppinions on the subject - hence why I ask.

Just message me if you want me to leave the thread to CMA practioners - I am cool but I guess I did say I dont know much about the subject and I thought I made it clear earlier.

SONSHU

[keef]

Sonshu.

Check out www.mantismartialart.com and click on demo, this will give u a feel of the mantis style forms, although this is only one of the many sub-styles of the northern mantis. Other styles of CMA may differ greatly each with its own unique flavour!

Is this the type of forms that you are referring to?

[Sonshu]

Sadly cant check it out until the weekend as my IT department lock me out of downloading new software - :woo: however I will check it out at the weekend when I get home - hey thanks for the input on it!

Just for some poxy reason it wont work on my work PC!

Thanks mate


Craig

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Sonshu
INever have I taken any of this to heart and I am sorry that you have.



ROFLMAO :D

Not to heart no. I've just kept going when most other people have had the sense to give up.

You'll get more from the thread if you let the CMA guys discuss this without trying to pigeon hole everyone into Pro Kata or No Kata categories. This is what I meant by you 'polarising' the discussion.

[pgm316]

Well, it is called "CMA Forms...a waste of time?" :D

Kind of set the theme for the thread.

Two Kata threads might have been better, whats wrong with kata and whats right with kata. Might have stopped a bit of the yes it does no it doesn't stuff.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by pgm316
Well, it is called "CMA Forms...a waste of time?" :D

Kind of set the theme for the thread.



Not at all. The majority of CMA people have all responded in a positive light re forms practice if you read up.
I needed to use a controversial title, because otherwise the CMA guys wouldn't post, as frankly the answers to the four questions I raised stare them in the face every day!

[Greyghost]

1/ Time spent practising forms should be spent on other things.

2/ Forms are full of useless movements.

3/ Forms teach you bad habits.

4/ There is nothing to be learned from forms that can't be gotten more easily from some other kind of training.

my answers:

1. no definately not. Forms are an integral part of CMA. They are not the definitive solution to all problems but should not be overlooked.

2. You will only find this out if and when you practise your forms. Most forms have a function , whether it be offensive, defensive or simple for health and fitness.

3.Forms teach you bad habits, perhaps, perhaps not...depends if you stupid enough to pick them up. Practising a form is not the same as using it in a practical application.

4. possibly, but sombody somewhere at sometime, thought that they worked. Who i am to argue, i will not follow blindly. I will walk with my eyes wide open and my glass empty.

Practise forms, practise other drills....to be whole ...you must be made up of several parts.

only my opinion.

ps...i rubbed this thread with a magnet ...so its definately polarized now.

:D

[stump]

Andy - you user of inside information you!!!!

Fair point well made- I am no fountain of knowledge of CHinese martial arts or any martial arts for that matter. But I think my comments stand.

Sorry it took so long to get back to you ....forgot abou this thread

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Greyghost
Forms are an integral part of CMA. They are not the definitive solution to all problems but should not be overlooked.



Integral as it holds the styles techniques or integral to learning the style?

How much of your training time is forms?

What proportion is; learning them / performing them / extracting techniques?

How did you feel about doing them as a beginner compared to now a more experienced MA’ist (if you are)?

[Cain]

ps...i rubbed this thread with a magnet ...so its definately polarized now.

:D


ROFL!!!! :D

|Cain|

[Greyghost]

1.Integral as it holds the styles techniques or integral to learning the style?

2.How much of your training time is forms?

3.What proportion is; learning them / performing them / extracting techniques?

4.How did you feel about doing them as a beginner compared to now a more experienced MA’ist (if you are)?

1. Both ....Cop out answer i know ...but its true. The forms hold both the techniques and are integral to the style...what use is knowing Kung-fu if all i ever did was only kick and punch...anyone can do that.! ( not that thats a bad thing...simplicity is a good thing..but if you wanted to just kick and punch you should have become a Rangers fan)

2.Probably about 50%..the rest is split between self defense and sparring.

3.hhhmmm...tricky...you gotta learn it 100% before you can perform it proerly 100% and then you can start to ectract the techniques you want...it doesn't always happen in this order...but i hope you get the idea.

4. When i started doing CMA , 15 years ago.... i copied the forms parrot fashion..its only within the last 5 years i've started to understand them and discover different techniques (from the original techniques taught within the form) and fully comprehend the subtle applications within the forms.

i hope this helps.


:D

[Sonshu]

You have not understood the forms until the last 5 years because you have considered it a form rather than purely looking at the techniques inside it?

Or

Could it be you have not understood the techniques fully until the 5 year mark?

I would venture looking at this from a Kata/Poomse view only here before I am shot down :woo: It is not the form but the techniques you have not understood as this is all a form is (please correct me if I am wrong), to me I guess its a bunch of techniques as that is all you are doing. If you understand the techniques would you not understand the form?

SONSHU

[Greyghost]

i understood both the the forms and the techniques within them as soon as i was shown them, what i am talking about is the subtle changes in posture and stance that turn a mere collection of movements into an effective tool..this can only be understood(by me at least) by constant practise of the form.

Ps..when looking at forms ...sometimes its good to practise a completely different style and then look at your own forms again with a new perspective...it'll amaze you how much you have missed.


"It is not the form but the techniques you have not understood as this is all a form is"

is it???...don't think so....most forms, from any style will incorporate elements of health, breathing, chi generation etc...that you could not possibly use in a pratical combat MA application. So they are put in the form for a reason....i wonder why?

[Cain]

Ack!!! Greyghost's b'come serious :eek:

The world is flat, the birds bark, the dogs sing:eek:

|Cain|

[Sonshu]

I am gonna be careful as I am not welcome on this forum so if you want we can take it to the Kata one in the general section.

I feel Kata etc does 100% cover breathing and many technical variations but this is because there are techniques there. To you is there more in kata than the technique as a string of techniques is actually all you are doing.

Granted the intention varies but that is no different than the with plain old techniques.

When I do techniques I can see how with little turn or bend here it can be altered a great deal, but this is better apeciated when I am doing it on a person, hence drill work, then you can see and measure your results.

If there are impractical thing as you put it in Kata (to me they are normal part of techniques) but to you if they are impractical from a combat view - Why are they there?????

SONSHU
(Interloper)

[Greyghost]

I am gonna be careful as I am not welcome on this forum so if you want we can take it to the Kata one in the general section.

Where did you get that from ?....your more than welcome in this forum...

I feel Kata etc does 100% cover breathing and many technical variations but this is because there are techniques there. To you is there more in kata than the technique as a string of techniques is actually all you are doing.

Yes. there is more...much more. It depends completely on your perspective of the Form though...doesn't it?


Granted the intention varies but that is no different than the with plain old techniques.

When I do techniques I can see how with little turn or bend here it can be altered a great deal, but this is better apeciated when I am doing it on a person, hence drill work, then you can see and measure your results.

fair point...but how do you practise this when you don't have a partner to practise on. The whole idea of forms is it is a singular form of training...it doesn't always require a partner.


If there are impractical thing as you put it in Kata (to me they are normal part of techniques) but to you if they are impractical from a combat view - Why are they there?????



For strength training, breathing training, balance , posture etc etc etc....i did not say they were impractical in forms , but perhaps the ability to stand on one leg perfectly balanced is not that important when some **** is Clubbing you round the head with a bat....(unless you only have one leg...in which case its perfectly acceptable).

so. in closing, for me CMA forms are not a waste of time...perhaps for you they are...if so ...don't do them...or alternatively ...gain some experience with the forms and come back and we can chat about it again.

regards


ps...did you now that Sonshu in glasgow is half a pair of Nike!!!

(only scottish people will get that joke...sorry!)

[WhiteWizard]

oh yeah Fraser enough time to post there but not too come and take the class tonight :D. just kidding mate we know how much work they make you do the B******s at least we got your dodgey joke hehe.

[keef]

Sonshu,

I think you would enjoy a book called "The Sword Polishers Record - The Way of Kung Fu" by Adam Hsu, ISBN 0 8048 3138-6.

Its a great book which has a section on forms and indeed why so many people dont understand them or are just taught flowery ineffective movements.

It also has a myriad of other information, some of which will be usefull to any martial artists such as "The theories of Nine Doors/Gates" , which could apply to many arts.

My teacher highly recommended this book to me after I started Kung Fu and it has been one of the best reads I have had in a long time (of all martial arts books). It is not a book on Kung Fu Techniques and moves (as are many books), far from it but a book examaning the Myths & reality of Kung Fu, The roles of forms, mind and body training, adapting western methods, why dilution has in some cases occured, why lots of students are unable to apply their techniques in spontaneous sparring or fighting situations etc etc. I`m sure its right down your street :-)

Enjoy :-)

[PantherFist]

Keef,
Sounds like a very good book, Full of very interesting informatiion, I'll have to check it out

Cheers

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by stump

Fair point well made- I am no fountain of knowledge of CHinese martial arts or any martial arts for that matter. But I think my comments stand.



Hi Colin,

I posted the thread because I know your comments don't stand.
I hope you find out for yourself one day.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Sonshu


1/ I am gonna be careful as I am not welcome on this forum so if you want we can take it to the Kata one in the general section.

2/ I feel Kata etc does 100% cover breathing and many technical variations but this is because there are techniques there. To you is there more in kata than the technique as a string of techniques is actually all you are doing.

3/ When I do techniques I can see how with little turn or bend here it can be altered a great deal, but this is better apeciated when I am doing it on a person, hence drill work, then you can see and measure your results.

4/ If there are impractical thing as you put it in forms (to me they are normal part of techniques) but to you if they are impractical from a combat view - Why are they there?????

SONSHU
(Interloper)

1/ You're not unwelcome Craig, far from it. Discussions on specific sections of the forum tend to pay a little respect to the practitioners they are relevant to. Members from other disciplines can ask questions, but not lecture from an uneducated perspective. That's what 'General Discussion' is for.

2/ We're not discussing Kata, but CMA forms here.

3/ Arguable. In drill work you have the benefit of feedback from a partner, in Forms, you only have yourself. You're partner can't learn for you though, you can only do that yourself.

4/ If they are impractical from a combat point of view, why do you have them as part of your normal techniques?

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by White Wizard
oh yeah Fraser enough time to post there but not too come and take the class tonight :D. just kidding mate we know how much work they make you do the B******s at least we got your dodgey joke hehe.

Free Private lessons in Kata, I mean Forms, I mean Bollocks are available on an occasional Sunday should you guys require.....

Expect lots of Wax-On, Wax-Off, Paint-Up, Paint-Down, Mow-Grass, Dig-Flower-Beds etc.

After all that, the local 'Cobra Kai' will be running for the nearest MMA/Shotokan make me tough Dojo :D

[Sonshu]

1) I am not lecturing at all I have asked a few times for people on this section to educate me. I have said I am a unskilled CMA person and wanted to know what it is other thant the chinese element and style that makes your CMA so different to the other forms of patterns out there, Kata/Poomse etc.

2) Please refer to Greyghosts post and mine will make sence why I mentioned Kata.

3)Arguable? There is no arguable about it as I am learning so is my partner, however there is a physical interaction that makes it that much more practical and realistic, people beat up on CKD for it not sparing yet you confer that pattern work is any better? people spend upto 50% doing it and yet it has so little combat value when compaired to drill work.

4) This was a response to what greyghost put see,

is it???...don't think so....most forms, from any style will incorporate elements of health, breathing, chi generation etc...that you could not possibly use in a pratical combat MA application. So they are put in the form for a reason....i wonder why?

My post should make sence.

All I was looking for was some advise but not sure why people are reluctant to help. Apart from the info given earlier kindly by Keef. ( I will check it out at the weekend so thanks for that ) Also I will try to get a copy of the book as it might fill in some blanks.

SONSHU
(Half a pair of Nike)

[pgm316]

Sonshu, imagine a form made up of your techniques (maybe concentrating on a certain aspect of your style), but not just techniques, but movements and various ways of applying the techniques in given situations. More of an abstract fight than what happens in your sparring, something to help practice when alone and also help you think about your fighting in a way that isn't always possible when you get stuck in at sparring.

This is the only way I see benefit, as an advanced training tool. I'm a great believer in the imagining fight situations, Frank Shanrock says he does it so..... But with forms, theres a fine line between it being this or a dance routine.

*Trying to be positive* :D

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Sonshu


1/ I am not lecturing at all I have asked a few times for people on this section to educate me.

2/ Arguable? There is no arguable about it as I am learning so is my partner, however there is a physical interaction that makes it that much more practical and realistic, people beat up on CKD for it not sparing yet you confer that pattern work is any better?

3/ people spend upto 50% doing it and yet it has so little combat value when compaired to drill work.

4/ All I was looking for was some advise but not sure why people are reluctant to help.




1/ I didn't say that you were!

2/ When I said 'arguable', I was referring to this statement you made;

"When I do techniques I can see how with little turn or bend here it can be altered a great deal, but this is better apeciated when I am doing it on a person, hence drill work, then you can see and measure your results."

I said 'arguable', because sometimes it's easier to refine movements without the distraction of a partner, who may, after all, have their own adgenda

3/ See, this is where the fact that you've obviously made your mind up about CMA forms influences your post. No one here is saying that the forms are a waste of time, with the possible exception of Stump, but I know the reason for that.


4/ No ones being reluctant to help, but you didn't start this thread, I did. So maybe it could follow the topic in the manner I'd like?

[Sonshu]

SONSHU

[Sonshu]

Follow the topic in the manner you'd like - the subject is CMA forms a waste of time?????

You wrote:

QUOTE]3/ See, this is where the fact that you've obviously made your mind up about CMA forms influences your post. No one here is saying that the forms are a waste of time, with the possible exception of Stump, but I know the reason for that.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for telling me what I am thinking - the reason I was asking for the difference is because I dont know and was looking to you guys to help - as a moderator I would have expected you to do this and not take cheap insults

As a result I found it pretty hard going writing anything non insulting here so I am just gonna stay out of the Kung Fu section as I am obviously not following it in the way YOU would like.

SONSHU

:confused:

[Andy Murray]

Could a sane member point out where I've insulted SONSHU, as I can't see it myself?

[WhiteWizard]

at no point would i say you have insulted SOMSHU however he does seem to say the exact same thing over and over again with you giving a similar reponse maybe we could have a bit of sense about it and just drop it.

also SOMSHU the topic title is a question not a statement so your points about it don't seem relevant.

from what i take it seems to me that Andy is asking whether people think they are a waste of time not that they are a waste of time so lets start slating them

[Andy Murray]

Seems timely to point out some things here;

Posting with Tact and Diplomacy (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2168)

One of the funny things about Moderating, is that every member fancies themselves at it. It's not always fun let me tell you.

There are two main considerations, the health of the forum, and the enjoyment of the members. I've been here from the start nearly three years ago, and have a very solid line that must be crossed before I step in, but when I do commit to action, I take it.

Lately, there has been just a little too much negativity for my liking, and not just on the subject of Kata.

If we all agreed about everything, there would be no point in having a discussion forum, but seeing as at least 80% of the MA world practice Kata, it's not good for the forum if people can't discuss it's merits without getting told they are wasting their time every second post.

Everyone should be doing their own reality checks on a regular basis, but some people are just in this for fun, and all are welcome here.

[Sonshu]

However to White Wizard please everyone look at my posts and can someone point out to me where I have said CMA forms are a waste or time?

I think in almost everypost on here I have said I dont know much about them and only been after one answer - "What in peoples views made it different to Japanese Kata? that was it.

The post quote about Its my thread and this is not how I want it got my back up as to me it was like saying its my ball I'm going home.

Honestly have I once said on the CMA forms are crap or have I been asking that question?

All this aside a good post Andy and I just wanted to clear my name on what I put in this Kung Fu section.

:)

[pgm316]

:D

I think the topic has just stewed and got frustrating over the last few weeks. Nearly as bad as talking about religion!

Only problem is, it seems you need many years of training to really know if they are for you or not, so the thread isn't going to settle the debate......

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Sonshu


The post quote about Its my thread and this is not how I want it got my back up as to me it was like saying its my ball I'm going home.



Not at all, look at the point on 'Posting with Tact and Diplomacy' about having a clear understanding of what the person starting a thread was hoping to acheive by it!

I started a thread to draw on the knowledge of the CMA people here. You don't have to ask any questions, as the four I posted at the start of the thread should suffice.

If you want to know more about CMA forms then by all means ask specific questions, better still start a new thread in the Kung Fu forum and wait for answers.

CMA people can't tell JMA people what the differences between each others systems are, unless they have practiced both. You have to look for opinions that differ from your own, and keep asking why!

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by pgm316
:D

Only problem is, it seems you need many years of training to really know if they are for you or not, so the thread isn't going to settle the debate......

I personally think you need to be taught well, and part of that is teaching people to learn for themselves.

That would in fact be my definition of a teacher; someone who enables others to learn for themselves.

Time isn't so much the issue as the people and their attitudes.

Like I was good at Physics at school because it was interesting and had no problems doing equations for it, I was hopeless at Maths, because simply learning theory for theories sake wouldn't work for me. I think it's the same with Forms Work, you have to want it to work to get anything out of it.
If you're not interested, then you'll never get it.

[pgm316]

I think we should thank you for your time and patience Andy! :)

I shall try and study forms with different perspective, and try and put a bit more thought in....

Like you said, its probably down to my frame of mind more than the teachers. I think with anything in life, you will only get something out of it if believe you can and also enjoy doing it.

[ptcruiser]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
Could a sane member point out where I've insulted SONSHU, as I can't see it myself?

Well, Andy, as an old timer you looked to others for support that you didn't insult Sonshu. If he felt you insulted him, then he felt insulted. A simple apology would suffice and probably show others you are more of a man than most. Miscommunications sometimes are as bad as a blatant insult.
I'm betting you will do the right thing.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by ptcruiser
Well, Andy, as an old timer you looked to others for support that you didn't insult Sonshu. If he felt you insulted him, then he felt insulted. A simple apology would suffice and probably show others you are more of a man than most. Miscommunications sometimes are as bad as a blatant insult.
I'm betting you will do the right thing.

Ah, you mean apologise for not being insulting?

Interesting concept, let me muse on it for a moment.....:D

[Andy Murray]

Muse completed.

Thanks for the advice ptcruiser, I'll try not to be insulted by it, as you may simply have miscommunicated. :D

[stump]

<<<Hi Colin,

I posted the thread because I know your comments don't stand.
I hope you find out for yourself one day.>>>

The more I learn about the martial arts the more I realise that there is a need to ditch anachronistic training methods and philosophies. Forms fall into that category. At best they were a way of teaching a list of techniques, not a way of training same......where they got distorted I don't know.

Secondly you asked if they were full of useless moves. Well part of their makeup was disguising real movements, according to forms researchers such as Patrick McCarthy...therefore they are made up of useless movements....to disguise the supposedly real movements.

If you want to learn an art they are a part of then that's fine...but in my opinion they will not aid a fighter.


Maybe when I've reached your level of experience in the MA I'll change my mind, but to be honest I doubt it

[ptcruiser]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
Muse completed.

Thanks for the advice ptcruiser, I'll try not to be insulted by it, as you may simply have miscommunicated. :D

Sorry if you felt offended, that's probably how Sonshu felt.
No, I didn't mean apologise for not insulting this young man.
Apologise for being mis-interpreted. I wont waste your time telling you my age or yrs in ma that doesn't or wouldn't make me right either.
BTW would you explain how you could have been insulted by my reply, I am man enough to apologise if percieved wrongfully?
Please try to read my spirit, not an interpretaion of what I could have said.
Once again I apologise if you think I am trying to belittle you.
I'll let your reply speak for you.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by ptcruiser


1/ Sorry if you felt offended,

2/ that's probably how Sonshu felt.

3/ No, I didn't mean apologise for not insulting this young man.
Apologise for being mis-interpreted.

4/ I wont waste your time telling you my age or yrs in ma that doesn't or wouldn't make me right either.

5/ BTW would you explain how you could have been insulted by my reply,

6/ I am man enough to apologise if percieved wrongfully?

7/ Please try to read my spirit, not an interpretaion of what I could have said.

8/ Once again I apologise if you think I am trying to belittle you.
I'll let your reply speak for you.

1/ I didn't, merely exercising my humour.

2/ I wouldn't know.

3/ That's a completely new set of etiquette to me, but what I have has served me well enough thanks.

4/ You don't need to, most of it's in your profile. As it happens I'm older than you, and have probably trained longer. It's not relevant to anything, so why mention it?

5/ Like I said, I haven't been.

6/ Have a Chocolate biscuit on me.

7/ This is the real problem. You can't read peoples spirit or emotion from text.

8/ No need to apologise, it's been tried before, and I'm sure it will be tried again. :D

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by stump

1/ Well part of their makeup was disguising real movements, according to forms researchers such as Patrick McCarthy...therefore they are made up of useless movements....to disguise the supposedly real movements.

2/ Maybe when I've reached your level of experience in the MA I'll change my mind, but to be honest I doubt it



1/ Maybe that's the case in some systems, but it's not in others Colin.

2/ I reserve the right to change my mind about anything I want, whenever I want. That has nothing to do with my experience or lifespan mate, it's just me. I'll take all the modern methodology too. Maintaining forms has little or no draw on my mental or physical resources.
They are at times the resource themselves.

All I was really suggesting to you Stump, is that you check out some good CMA, and you bloody know it you cheeky scamp. ;)

[ptcruiser]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
[B]1/ I didn't, merely exercising my humour.

]

Glad to know you are over 50 and been in ma over 40 yrs.
Saw you listed Father, I should have listed grandfather.
Using my humor also.:Angel:

[Andy Murray]

Strange glitch earlier on then, as I looked at your profile and it gave 1968 as your d.o.b.

Like I said, irrelevant.

Do you have any views/experience on CMA forms btw?

[ptcruiser]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
Strange glitch earlier on then, as I looked at your profile and it gave 1968 as your d.o.b.

Like I said, irrelevant.

Do you have any views/experience on CMA forms btw?

Actually I started Kosho Ryu Kenpo in 1966 and cross trained in Tae Soo Do,Kenbo,Mok-Gar, Shotokan and Wado Ryu. All of my training in the US.

As yourself, I have heard the pros and cons of forms. If used as a discipline for focus and balance then that's okay. However you wouldn't want to try and use a form to defend yourself in street fighting. Forms and techniques seem to fade away in a real unprepared fighting situation and instinct and survival takes over.
Not wanting to sound like I'm contradicting myself, learning how to block in techniques and forms can cause you by instinct to respond properly.
Disciplines are never a waste of time.
Does this make sense?

[Andy Murray]

Ah,
Mok Gar is a good working example of what I was talking about earlier.

A short hand southern family system yes?

I'd have thought you will have found some common areas with the various JMA systems Kata you have practiced in comparison to Mok Gar's forms?

[keef]

Personally I have always liked forms, when I used to do TKD I liked forms, although admittedly I agree that the way I was taught meant that they were little of value to combat.

I still enjoy forms now which is good as the forms are a usefull tool within my present system! All the techniques we drill for actual combat are derived from the forms, the Bung Bo form has so many of them.

In our system it is pretty clear what each form is devised for, some such as bung bo is for extracting techniques from, a resource of the 12 keyword formula (theory) and a way of showing how to flow from one technique to another. Some other forms are good at working on your hips and stances, others introduce to the practictioner the evasive footwork, others purely health such as the Eighteen Lorhan Chi Gung.

The forms in the system should be taught so that you are introduced to new ideas/conceptes/therories as your martial career progresses.

Its easier to pass them down like this than via just drills. One can the just simply refer back to the forms, i personally find them not to hard to remember as the forms become muscle memory, you dont have to think to perform them, but hey it is about 6 months to learn one form!

I personally find it easier to know Bung Bo and use theories and produce drills from it, in essence this gives more creativity than just knowing a set of drills.

People that do not value forms either dont enjoy them which is fine, there are alternative ways of learning, it depends what suits you or they have not been taught correctly.

I fell honoured to be taught correctly :-)

[PantherFist]

Right on!

Chinese forms have such a deep depth to them, that very few non chinese style martial artist's(and some chinese style artist's) ever really comprehend.

Very few people really have the time and patience to delve deeply into the forms of their respective styles and learn their styles fighting theories and secrets.

[Andy Murray]

And I thought it was just me *sob* ;) Group Hug! :D

[keef]

Hi Chaz,

Yes I agree that the CMA do have much depth to them but I personally (my experience and perspective only) the way I am taught them dont find patience and time an issue. This is not saying I have mastered my forms, by any means though!

In the system I study and the way I am taught the techniques and theories are quite easily identifiable and can be put into practice. Note that this is just my style, I can`t comment on other CMA forms.

I truly beleive that there really arnt that many secrets to be found if the system is taught honestly in the first instance. Some CMA forms though in certain systems were designed to hide the original intent. For public performances when teachers gave performances they would show flowery forms with acrobatic movements to entertain the audience, these forms may have been passed down, if so they are ineffective for combat only good showmanship. It is also said that forms were also devised with incomplete or incorrect techniques / movements to baffle and confuse the enemy, maybe some of these forms have also been passed down. If you received one of these forms you would never find the hiden secrets because they just are not there!

Food for thought!

[PantherFist]

In traditionly taught schools, especially schools that have chinese sifu, some forms that are shown in public will generally of been altered i.e some parts of forms mixed up, certain techniques missing. The only time you will really see the true form is if you are member of that particular style. One of the reason's for this, is to stop people from other styles from copying the forms.

Certain forms in Chinese martial arts are restricted to closed door students/diciples with some forms reserved for the inheritors of the style, a good example of this is the following link to one of the 7*Mantis branches:-

http://www.geocites.com/sifu_carl/forms.html

Depending on which style you pracitice, some of the higher level forms are designed for pressure point strikes/dim mak.

These forms have to be kept seceret from ordinary students, to stop missuse of such dagerous knowledge in the wrong hands.

[jmann06405]

Hello,
I find that a lot of folks that denigrate forms training are the people that are not 'natural' at them in the first place! While forms training should not be your entire regimen, it does have a very important role in training.
1. Forms keeps your body in shape-Forms training conditions the entire body, not just targeting specific muscles(i.e. weightlifting), but conditioning the small muscles as well. Depending on the nature of the set, it also trains speed, power, and muscle conditioning. Endurance is a very important aspect as well...not just physical, but more importantly, mental endurance. When your mind is accustomed to the body tiring, the mind will carry the body much further.
2. Training forms gives you a better sense of where your body parts are. This is a must for artists of any style, for obvious reasons.
3. When sets are taught properly(with applications), training them helps you to visualize your motions. Visualization is a major part of any field of physical excellence.

I am not a fan of having a catalogue of forms, i.e. collecting forms just for the right to say 'I have the sixty seven crane dragon snake kills the monkey form'. Like anything, if it is not being practiced correctly and diligently, the time is better spent on something else.

Let me know if I have missed anything, or if you have other experiences.

[axelb]

Does anyone who practises forms have catching to the form?

I've not found any other styles of MA that have the other side to the form i.e. someone testing you throughout the form

I think it is valuble that your stances, and handwork is tested throughout the form. Without this you could potentially end up with a set of movements that looks good, but has no power/grounding to it.

I think forms and basics are very important in training, or some way of teaching people to start from the basics and work your way up -

you wouldn't put a kid straight on a bike without stabilizers would you?

[gedhab]

like everything in life....moderation. Forms arnt the be all and end all but they are VERY important for all-rounded Kung-Fu training.

[David]

1/ Time spent practicing forms should be spent on other things.
Form practice is a component of training; I don't spend a great deal of time doing forms wholly.

2/ Forms are full of useless movements.
Not a single useless movement. Where the techniques aren't for offense, they are for specific power development such as iron shirt. I shake my head at the thought that systems actually train non-functional motion - the concept is ridiculous.

3/ Forms teach you bad habits.
Forms are where you demonstrate ever decreasing bad habits.

4/ There is nothing to be learned from forms that can't be gotten more easily from some other kind of training.
I view my forms as indices to the style put together in a manner that the human mind finds easy to remember (contrast remembering lyrics to a song or an alphabetically ordered list of the words of that song - which is easier?)

Rgds,
David

[cybermonk]

Forms are a waste of time, utterly uses, it is shadow boxing gone wrong. :rolleyes:

Can't we just move on? :cool:

[Injury Time]

Sonshu,

I did 6 years of ITF Style TKD and one of my reasons for my losing interest in it too an extent was that no one rarely used any thing from the forms etc when fighting. The Northern Praying Mantis style of Kung Fu that I do so far the forms resemble very little to that of TKD tyle forms!

This is just our branch of the mantis style thought (7 star), when one says Kung Fu we mean any Chinese style of martial art (hundreds) which the styles vary greatly. So for one to say Kung Fu / Chinese forms are usefull / useless would be an impossible task as one would have to master hundreds of arts!

I also study 7-star mantis and I've found the forms very helpful. Apart from anything else, almost every technique I use in sticky hands or free sparring is taken directly from a form.

[Injury Time]

I think part of the trouble is that in some arts - I'd expect, the more "closed-door" systems - the forms require interpretation, or the techniques have a huge number of applications, and knowing the movements perfectly is a prerequisite but obviously does not permit you to fight. Longfist strikes me this way, the internal arts also. Other styles just string together techniques that all have something in common - mantis, espescially the seven-star style, I think is one of these, being a set of suggestions for shortish combinations which share a general flavour. When I train with other students from my school outside the school, we often take a couple of bits from forms and turn them into drills or practice defences against them. This seems useful. I also think that some arts and techniques require the whole body to move at once and immediately and if you haven't practiced the movement thousands of times, so that it comes as naturally as breathing, you simply won't be fast enough - and form is a good way of learning to do this. For what they're worth, they're my views.

[sliver]

Ack! Who's the necrofeliac that resurected a thread from 2003?!?! Leave the dead alone already frankenstein!! This topic has been done and redone and reredone enough already!

[slipthejab]

Ack! Who's the necrofeliac that resurected a thread from 2003?!?! Leave the dead alone already frankenstein!! This topic has been done and redone and reredone enough already!

ROTFLMAO!!!!!

[keef]

Hi Injury Time,

Nice to see another mantis practioner here, its a while since I posted that&now a few years down the line I can say that I have had the same experience with you with the mantis forms. The only thing I dont agree with though is having the need to know all the forms or a vast amount to make you a good fighter, this is only needed if you wish to be a holder of the style.

Look forward to any topics you post.

Cheers

[RAB]

It’s interesting that majority of the people here saw that value of forms and only a few people see the limitations.

1/ Time spent practicing forms should be spent on other things.

This all depends on why you are practicing CMA. Martial arts can be divided by the following categories:

Health
Competition
Self-defense
Demonstration

If the focus is on demonstration or competition then forms are extremely important.

2/ Forms are full of useless movements.

Cheng Man-ch'ing eliminated many repetitive movements and developed T'ai Chi Ch'uan’s short form.

3/ Forms teach you bad habits.

Again, this really depends on why you are practice them.

4/ There is nothing to be learned from forms that can't be gotten more easily from some other kind of training.

This is a very interesting question and it seem that most people believe that the forms are for the student to learn and while few people eluded that their teacher breaks the form down in small parts.

Forms are more useful for the teacher than the student. Forms are like unwritten curriculum. Forms are tools for teaching. But what is it that they are really teaching? It is health, competition, self-defense, or demonstration.

If you are healthy you don’t need CMA for health. (Cheng Man-ch’ing learned CMA because of health reasons).

If you like competitions then practice forms and don’t waist your time with self-defense. (Extreme Martial Arts was coined by Mike Chat the Green Power Ranger).

If you want to learn self-defense, practicing endless forms is a waste of time. Keep your art practical.

If you like doing demonstrations then break things, learn forms, and sign autographs.

[Kew-Do]

Quote from RAB....

"If you like competitions then practice forms and don’t waist your time with self-defense. (Extreme Martial Arts was coined by Mike Chat the Green Power Ranger). "

Now this is very important to me! Which Power Ranger Series are you refering to when you identify the Green Power Ranger

*Mighty Morphin
*Alien Rangers
*Zeo
*Turbo
*In Space
*Lost Galaxy
*Lightspeed Rescue
*Time Force
*Wild Force
*Ninja Storm
*Dino Thunder
*S.P.D. ...(My Son's and My favorite)
*Mystic Force
*Operation Overdrive

[RAB]

I really don't know....I only paid attention to the yellow and pink rangers.

[SirVill]

I really don't know....I only paid attention to the yellow and pink rangers.


Awww yeah.

[Kew-Do]

I really don't know....I only paid attention to the yellow and pink rangers.


Some how I knew you were going to say that...........

LOL..........


Kew-Do

[Angelus]

first off i learn the forms because i like the art...
secondly my sifu breaks down each movement so that i can understand its practical application...

[Pinoro]

The form helps you to understand the mechanic of a movement through certain ''routes''and to generate more power on these routes. It helps building ''muscular memory''. It is something that helps you to execute better,stronger and quicker a certain movement (offensive or geffensive).
All the fighting systems have forms - even if they don't admit it. You cannot refine a movement only fighting.
Actually, every sport has forms: the throws in basketball, the shoots at the gate in football/soccer. These are forms.

[Tartovski]

Actually, every sport has forms: the throws in basketball, the shoots at the gate in football/soccer. These are forms.

That's a flawed comparison. Heavy bag work would be the same as above. Forms would be someone practising the throw without throwing, or practising kicking a ball without a ball.

Personnally I think forms are useless unless you also apply them. IE forms for forms sake are a waste of time if you are wanting to learn to fight. Admittadly if you want to learn forms cos they look pretty - go ahead.

On the "no useless movements" thing, I disagree. I think there can be some "useless" movements in forms. They can act as a joiner to make some moves flow together but don't really make sense in isolation. A bit like ripping quotes out of context - the info is there, but it doesn't flow anymore.

[UninspiredUser]

I find forms helpful. I practice the form over and over again so I can get the moves in my head. But you have to know the application for the moves you're doing, or it's pointless from a fighting point a view. I also think it's important to apply power to forms, in some ways they're like shadow boxing (depending on the form). Also, some forms help with things like muscle development, relaxation etc. and I think it's important to try to achieve this when practicing forms, as opposed to "just doing them."

[Pinoro]

That's a flawed comparison. Heavy bag work would be the same as above. Forms would be someone practising the throw without throwing, or practising kicking a ball without a ball.

Admittadly if you want to learn forms cos they look pretty - go ahead.

.

No, form is throwing alone, with no opponent in front of you; is kicking with no goalkeeper at the gate. This is form.

And... the wing chun forms are DEFINITELY not good looking -so your argument doesn't work for me.

[Tartovski]

No, form is throwing alone, with no opponent in front of you; is kicking with no goalkeeper at the gate. This is form.

Not if you are ACTUALLY kicking/throwing a ball - then it is practise. "forms" are doing the movement in the air - no opponent, no nothing. Kicking a ball is like kicking a pad - not like kicking the air.

As for WC not being pretty - the weapon's ones are...
Anyway, I do Lau gar, and lots of the forms look nice so I don't have that problem.

[Bassmonkey]

HI Peoples,

Sorry for the reallllly late addition of my 2 cents but:

I think that forms are important as most (IMHO) are all (generally) practical applications of techniques within the style (which ever that may be) that have been threaded together to form a sequence. Its down to your sifu to explain and perhaps show the practical applications.

I only recently had each move in Kay Boon Sau Fa (Lau Gar for the non Lau peoples) explained and i have been doing that form for over a year! (new teacher, class yada yada yada) Once the reason behind the forms are explained you will gain (i feel) a new understanding of it, and maybe through that understanding appriciate it alot more.

Thanks

C60

[tpyeon]

wooooooo. took me ages to read all these posts.

hopefully i won't repeat stuff that's already been said.

no one, i think, would have a problem saying that doing lots of push ups would be a good way to increase your strength, and therefore your fighting ability.

no one would say; why waste your time doing push ups? they encourage poor habits and you should only get better at fighting through fighting and fighting alone.

just seems weird that this is such a big issue. forms are training methods. just like push ups. i wouldn't try to hit someone with a push up. i wouldn't try and use a form movement exactly either. we use what we get from them.

peace,

timo

[Maxui]

Hi

Ok - This is going to sound arrogant and full of pooh - please excuse the tone

Forms/kata's are the textbooks of any martial art.

The entire art form is held within the form it is NOT set responses to set situations as some people may think - what they teach you is the principles of the technique used in the form

if you take a beginner long fist form (Lien bu chuan) as an example, This will be the very first form you learn and also the very last because there is a richness and complexity in it that is hidden from the beginner and as you progress you will find literally thousands of techniques that stem from the 1st form you learned
so for me, it is pure folly to say that forms are unimportant
it's like saying playing scales in unimportant to learning to play the guitar

its the essence of whatever art you choose to do

my 2c worth

[cloudz]

Hi

Ok - This is going to sound arrogant and full of pooh - please excuse the tone

Forms/kata's are the textbooks of any martial art.

The entire art form is held within the form it is NOT set responses to set situations as some people may think - what they teach you is the principles of the technique used in the form

if you take a beginner long fist form (Lien bu chuan) as an example, This will be the very first form you learn and also the very last because there is a richness and complexity in it that is hidden from the beginner and as you progress you will find literally thousands of techniques that stem from the 1st form you learned
so for me, it is pure folly to say that forms are unimportant
it's like saying playing scales in unimportant to learning to play the guitar

its the essence of whatever art you choose to do

my 2c worth

Good post.

Would you tell a boxer not to shadow box?
NO

Chinese forms are a fixed version of that imo that train various body and movement methods as well as art specific conditioning. From there you can take them on to a more freeform shadow boxing method if you so wish..

For example there is a clue i would say in bagua you have the first and the last in the single palm change. There is the fixed step and the living step.

[Yohan]

You have to train forms properly to get anything out of them. You have to take each section of the forms, and practice them individually in a variety of ways. Practice dilligently, intentfully, and with good technique and you will improve.

Yohan

[jeff5]

Are they a waste of time? Depends on your goals.

For physical fitness and the artistic side of the martial arts, I'd say no, they're not a waste.

For self defense, it depends. Forms themselves will NOT teach you how to fight. Its the techniques, and more importantly, the principles in them, that do. You need to practice the form with the techinques and principles in mind, then you need to practice the applications with a partner. This then leads up to varying degrees of free sparring. All under the supervision of a good instructor. Only then will they be useful in teaching you how to fight and defend yourself.

[cloudz]

yea, it's a training method and there are loads - but in Chinese arts it is high on the list beacause as has been said they can contain so much and are an ongoing learning tool to the art in question. Applications don't teach you how to fight either. sparring methods will get you somewhere. fighting is even better.

[dragonclaw]

In the old days, forms were the last thing you learned. It was viewed as a summary of the principles and ideas of the various character the styles are founded on. First was the basics(stance, punching and blocking drills, etc), then the combinations, then each concept is focused on along with the development of internal power, and lastly the form is taught to serve as a reference.

[cloudz]

well indeed, in hsingi, you had to stand in san ti for 2 years before you even were allowed a cup of tea.

[haikksum]

well indeed, in hsingi, you had to stand in san ti for 2 years before you even were allowed a cup of tea.

You would be very tired if you did that!

[Angelus]

i never saw them as being a waste of time...
even if someone says that they are not realistic - in terms of combat - you still get an excellent workout out of it....

[TheDarkJester]

Everything I learned in Mantis.. all the basics and intermediate stuff.. grabbing, kicks, punches, blocks, parries... were pulled from the forms I later learned. If there was something in a form I didn't understand, I asked an older student about it, was told to set up in my fighting stance and off we went.. technique decoded and understood.

Forms are hardly be considered useless if you take all the material you've learned over the years, and compact them into a somewhat easy to remember travel sized 'dictionary' for your system.

[Tartovski]

Can I ask if forms are such a "textbook" of the styles: Then why are some moves repeated again and again in a form? What purpose does it serve?

Surely a "textbook" would simply list each move ONCE, not several times.

[Guizzy]

Can I ask if forms are such a "textbook" of the styles: Then why are some moves repeated again and again in a form? What purpose does it serve?

Surely a "textbook" would simply list each move ONCE, not several times.
They are not only a textbook, they are a pretty good workout by themselves, as well as a way to keep your technique fresh.

For instance, some of the stuff I did when I just started doing kung fu, I no longer practice seperately. It would be counter-productive to have me drill a single, very limited exercise over and over again when I already know pretty well how to do it and there are other things I need to focus on. But never practicing that technique or movement ever again after the initial drilling would mean that it will eventually degrade as I learn more advanced movements. That's what forms are for; making sure the technique does not degrade with time.

And there's not only time that degrades technique; habits caught from sparring flawed partners (and aren't we all?) can also degrade a technique. Doing forms will keep them from straying too far from the original.

[Tartovski]

That's what forms are for; making sure the technique does not degrade with time.

Again: Why the repetition? the "it's a good workout" thing doesn't cut much mustard with me. You could simple do the forms (containing one of every movement) over and over for the same effect. Clearly there is a reason for the repetition within the forms themselves.

And there's not only time that degrades technique; habits caught from sparring flawed partners (and aren't we all?) can also degrade a technique. Doing forms will keep them from straying too far from the original.

And "sparring flawed partners"? What, you technique gets worse cos you are attacked in the wrong way? Sounding like bullshido to me.

[Guizzy]

Again: Why the repetition? the "it's a good workout" thing doesn't cut much mustard with me. You could simple do the forms (containing one of every movement) over and over for the same effect. Clearly there is a reason for the repetition within the forms themselves.Errr, ever heard of drilling? Like, every martial art does it. It's a synonym of "repetition" basically. Doing a specific movement more than once can be done for different reasons, either to emphasise its importance among the others, to drill it a little better than the others, to train the other side symmetrically if it's a side specific technique.

Again, it depends on what you want to consider as a form. Some crappy 5-minutes long flowery wushu form is not the only example of a form.

And "sparring flawed partners"? What, you technique gets worse cos you are attacked in the wrong way? Sounding like bullshido to me.No. For instance, if your sparring partner often does a specific punch a specific way, and you often counter with a specific angle and variation of a base technique. When you get to fight (or spar) with someone that doesn't do that specific technique, you would have wished you had kept your training general enough.

If you are short and keep sparring with taller partners, your technique will likely adapt to fighting against taller people, the form is here to "calibrate" the movement to stay as general as possible. Sure, you can do variations depending on the specific situation at hand, but doing the form will keep the variation from becoming the norm.

Unless you have a nearly unlimited amount of truly different partners to spar with (something most people outside of competition don't have access to), given enough time, your fighting WILL "mutate" into something that is less good for general fighting and better on those specific sparring partners. Forms were designed as the purest expression of a specific technique, not as a specific, realistic one.

[Tartovski]

Errr, ever heard of drilling? Like, every martial art does it. It's a synonym of "repetition" basically. Doing a specific movement more than once can be done for different reasons, either to emphasise its importance among the others, to drill it a little better than the others, to train the other side symmetrically if it's a side specific technique.

But then forms aren't simply a "textbook of moves" as is repeatadly claimed by some people. I was refuting that idea and saying there is more to it than that. Though when I talk about "repetition" in forms, I mean repetition of exactly the same move. Doing it on both sides is only sensible, but why (as is the case of some forms I've seen) do the same movement to several different compass points?
If we accept the drilling idea then we are moving towards the "forms are like shadow boxing" idea. Which, as I think has been pointed out is flawed in it's own way i.e. it's static, not against an opponent etc.
So why drill them with forms when there are so many many better ways to do it? surely a good instructor would remove them from the textbook and practise them realisticly? Otherwise, what's the point?

Again, it depends on what you want to consider as a form. Some crappy 5-minutes long flowery wushu form is not the only example of a form.

No idea, I've never done wushu: only Lau Gar and Hung Kuen.

Unless you have a nearly unlimited amount of truly different partners to spar with (something most people outside of competition don't have access to), given enough time, your fighting WILL "mutate" into something that is less good for general fighting and better on those specific sparring partners. Forms were designed as the purest expression of a specific technique, not as a specific, realistic one.

Understand what you mean about "flawed" opponents now, that makes much more sense than what I originally thought you meant. But again, that would lean towards the "textbook" idea again.

[SirVill]

Can I ask if forms are such a "textbook" of the styles: Then why are some moves repeated again and again in a form? What purpose does it serve?

Surely a "textbook" would simply list each move ONCE, not several times.


Well I think its a combination of a text book of moves approach, which also builds fitness, which also teaches co-ordination thru transition, which also teaches discipline and dilligence by giving students something to not only learn, but practice and hone, and to perform to a level where they make it their own.


Tying a form down to one particular purpose is being overly simplistic, I think.

[cloudz]

Can I ask if forms are such a "textbook" of the styles: Then why are some moves repeated again and again in a form? What purpose does it serve?

Surely a "textbook" would simply list each move ONCE, not several times.


Speaking from a tcc perspective. The most repeated move is grasp sparrows tail. The more a posture / movement is repeated the more importance it has in the style.

grasp sparrows tail in tc contains the four primary body methods of peng, an, lu, ji.

So that clearly indicates it as something to take out and train on its own. Also if you train the whole form then you get to train the more important movements moreso than the lesser utilized movements to the overall fighting style.

[Infrazael]

If forms were useless, they wouldn't exist. It's a matter of understand how the fcuk to actually use them. Most people don't have a clue, and are never taught a clue due to incompetence of teachers, students, and everything in between.

[Davey Bones]

I'll say this on the topic:

Forms do have their utility. When I was injured and couldn't do anything but forms, they did keep me from getting totally rusty. I also believe that they are good to train muscle memory, techniques, etc. This of course also implies that the student is not doing *just* forms. Live drilling is necessary if you want to learn to fight or defend yourself. But hey, there's nothing wrong with kata queens, I pretty much live for forms. Of course, I'm also honest about it. It's the ones who aren't which bug me the most...

[Bassmonkey]

Again: Why the repetition? the "it's a good workout" thing doesn't cut much mustard with me. You could simple do the forms (containing one of every movement) over and over for the same effect. Clearly there is a reason for the repetition within the forms themselves

Hey Tartovski,

Could it be that practioners are being asked to repeat certains moves within forms more than once because very few people, if any get it perfect first time and then everytime after. Not until you have being practicing for a good long time would you hope to be this good at EVERY form. Even then its proabable that even an instructor would go through the lower grade forms that they learnt just as a reminder about different moves.

For example in Lau Gar, Kay Boon Sau Fau, (sorry i only practice this style so no other ma background to draw experiance from) you repeat the form twice, once on the right hand/arm, then again on the left.

I believe this is because it is good to practice moves that you may never have used other than in a form, but will suddenly use possibly in a sparring enviroment. Also the more you practice things the more understanding of the form.art you will gain.

Undoubtedly some of the moves are proabably to add a little flair but other than i think that a good 95% of what is contained in forms will have a practical application, even if you dont use it personally, someone else might.

Hope this all made sense, typing very quickly at work....... :bang: :D

[Tartovski]

If forms were useless, they wouldn't exist.

What, like "homeopathy must work, otherwise why would It still be popular?" or "Well obviously there was a US conspiracy behind 9/11 cos otherwise why would people say there was?"

Just because something exists, or is popular, doesn't in anyway whatsoever contribute to it's veracity or usefullness.

Coblat60: I think I already said above that I didn't count practising moves on each side to be repetiton. They are by definition seperate/different moves.

As for "not getting it right first time" good point, but why not simply do the form over and over, rather than repeat a single move in the form?

[Bassmonkey]

Ah sorry, missed that bit.

So much to read.

I think that they are included in other forms so that you can see the different ways and variations in which moves can flow from one to another. If you did the same form everytime, you would only be exposed to one move into another, not a variation.

Thanks

C60

[Infrazael]

What, like "homeopathy must work, otherwise why would It still be popular?" or "Well obviously there was a US conspiracy behind 9/11 cos otherwise why would people say there was?"

Just because something exists, or is popular, doesn't in anyway whatsoever contribute to it's veracity or usefullness.

Coblat60: I think I already said above that I didn't count practising moves on each side to be repetiton. They are by definition seperate/different moves.

As for "not getting it right first time" good point, but why not simply do the form over and over, rather than repeat a single move in the form?

I've been training in CLF for a while now. I was on/off regarding forms. If you've been here longer, you can see me go through different phases. At first, I liked forms. Then I hated forms. Now I like forms again.

But take what you well. I think forms play a very specific role . . . . they don't help your "fighting" but they do help keep your Fu in shape, so to speak. I've discovered if I don't work on my forms periodically, my CLF starts to fall apart . . . . . but then again, you might be different.

Good luck, different strokes for different folks.

[Yohan]

I've been training in CLF for a while now. I was on/off regarding forms. If you've been here longer, you can see me go through different phases. At first, I liked forms. Then I hated forms. Now I like forms again.

But take what you well. I think forms play a very specific role . . . . they don't help your "fighting" but they do help keep your Fu in shape, so to speak. I've discovered if I don't work on my forms periodically, my CLF starts to fall apart . . . . . but then again, you might be different.

Good luck, different strokes for different folks.

I think they are very valuable - and I think Infrazael has made a valid point here . . . that repetition is the key to building skill in martial arts, and forms provide that repetition (to some degree).

[Infrazael]

I think they are very valuable - and I think Infrazael has made a valid point here . . . that repetition is the key to building skill in martial arts, and forms provide that repetition (to some degree).

Thanks John, always appreciate your input. As of late, well pretty much since I've started training in MMA, I thought that I could improve my Kung Fu in a similar fashion - hardcore drilling, combinations, sparring, bagwork. Turns out that although my FIGHTING have improved, my Kung Fu/CLF have gotten crappier. Now I didn't like fall to beginner level, but the "cleaniness" of my Kung Fu movements seem to have lowered . . . . the exact reason, I'm not sure. Maybe because I'm cross-training? Or maybe because I didn't do forms?

However I've discovered that doing my forms keeps my Kung Fu in shape. They are also a nice workout as well. That said, I enjoy doing them now. And I don't think liking forms IN ANY WAY INVALIDATES YOUR ABILITIES AS A FIGHTER. I always liked fighting and I'll always like the combat/applications more. I am not a form collector. I don't spend 90% of my time on forms. But I do my share, and IMHO, it helps me progress.

Take what you will.

Regards,

Miluo

[Yohan]

What you are saying makes alot of sense. There are different exercises that promote different aspects of your Kung Fu. I think that a big benefit of forms is technical mastery. The main focus when I am doing forms is to keep the best technique possible. There are other benefits that pad and bagwork can provide, but when you do that kind of work, I don't think you should forget about your technique or your forms. If your technique is breaking down from doing pad and bagwork, when you do it in the future, take it a bit slower and easier and work on keeping proper form. I know how it goes, because I get the same thing in class. Everything looks great when I'm doing single man practice, but as soon as we do 2 man drills, or hit the rice bag, things start breaking down, and it's really a struggle to keep everything proper.

[Visage]

In my opinion, forms are the skeleton and muscle of the CMA body. Without forms, the arts just become kick-boxing.

The forms are only useless if you learn the pattern without learning the individual applications to each part, and these applications make up the style.

James

[Infrazael]

In my opinion, forms are the skeleton and muscle of the CMA body. Without forms, the arts just become kick-boxing.

The forms are only useless if you learn the pattern without learning the individual applications to each part, and these applications make up the style.

James

Word. :)

[Cathain]

The forms are only useless if you learn the pattern without learning the individual applications to each part, and these applications make up the style.

James
Agreed. This is why I value the forms being broken down into seperate punch and kick blocks, yet we are stil informed how these relate to the forms so we understand where they are taken from

[Polar Bear]

Good point from Visage, without understanding the applications forms are useless.
I always thought tai chi training was backward. Always though it should be taught

internal -> applications -> forms.

Everyone seems to teach it the other way round.

The Bear.

[Visage]

internal -> applications -> forms.


I think if you flip that around, its about right :)