k-1 seoul, the final straw [Archive]

Ikken Hisatsu

22-Mar-2005, 04:17 AM

Even though i knew who was going to be on the cards I still kept telling myself it wouldnt hapen. surely k-1 had gotten over the freakshow. Well, I was wrong. K-1 is as of this moment no longer a respectable martial arts tournament but is a mere sideshow. as someone else mentioned, its going to end up like ice skating- you just watch it for giggles not because you care who wins. I think this whole tournament was a big "up yours" to the REAL fighters out there like Hoost, Aerts, Sefo, Lebanner... its not for want of talented fighters. I can only hope that Super league gets big enough and takes over from K-1 which is never going to break out of the japanese market at this rate. At least in Super league they have real fighters, not washed up football players and sumos. anyway.

http://img194.exs.cx/img194/5254/asiagp20052nz.jpg
(taken from al3xweb.com)

as you can see the only fighter here is Kaoklai. we have 3 cans in the form of whoever the hell those korean dudes are (homecrowd heroes to draw people in) two sumos, some giant wrestling freak (choi is 7'2) and kakuda, a 45 year old REFEREE. AND, as if that wasnt bad enough, they had Semmy Schilt vs that giant can Silva (the one who illegally beat the everlasting crap out of musashi in what should have gotten him banned from any sport, ever- and then lost to him in the rematch) and Remy Bonjasky vs Ray "im a 45 year old boxer with no money" Mercer. that one lasted until remy hit him with a head kick and mercer GAVE UP. heres some disgusting photos of this travesty of combat sports.

http://ca1n.c.yimg.jp/sports/sn2005032000363100008961m/sportsnavi.yahoo.co.jp/fight/pict/200503/im00008961.jpg
http://ca1n.c.yimg.jp/sports/sn2005319235748m0000894m/sportsnavi.yahoo.co.jp/fight/pict/200503/im00008945.jpg
http://imgnews.naver.com/image/109/2005/03/19/200503191831251500_1.jpg
http://ca1n.c.yimg.jp/sports/sn2005032002022500009004m/sportsnavi.yahoo.co.jp/fight/pict/200503/im00009004.jpg

R.I.P K-1

tekkengod

22-Mar-2005, 04:29 AM

HOLY CRAP in the 2nd pic, what is taht guy like 4'2!!!!! and he LANDED A GOOD PUNCH!!!!!! :D

and this human garbage pile vs human statue. man this is truly a sad day indeed. here, i'll just save us the trouble and execute K-1. :woo: :woo: :woo: :cry:

Ikken Hisatsu

22-Mar-2005, 04:46 AM

Kaoklai is actually 180cm- about 6 foot. thats taller than me. he also landed a flying high kick to the side of his face (something of a kaoklai special) but it didnt have enough sauce behind it to do much, shame I couldnt find a pic of it.

Knight_Errant

22-Mar-2005, 11:23 AM

Yeah. And how the hell are we meant to take it seriously when they deliberately start stupid rumours e.g. the Mike Tyson debacle ?

Mushroom

22-Mar-2005, 04:20 PM

Rumour has it that Akebono faked his shin injury in the 2nd fight, so he wouldnt take too much punishment and not attend WWE's Wrestlemania 21 Sumo match against Big Show.

kungfufighter

22-Mar-2005, 07:56 PM

That fight between kaoklai and Choi was total BS, the guy was like 2 fee ttaller then him, not to mention so much bigger too. Man, whats happening, we're getting freaks in all these fighting organizations.

Ghost Frog

23-Mar-2005, 07:44 AM

Bonjasky still looks cool as ever, though. :cool:

CKava

23-Mar-2005, 09:35 AM

I'm by no means a fan favourite of the likes of Bob Sapp and Akebono but I have to say I'm not entirely against them being pitted up against the 'smaller' opponents like Kaoklai for three reasons:

Firstly, these sorts of fights are bound to happen when there are only two weight divisions, its a fact and anyone who follows K 1 should know its likely to happen. Excluding fighters because they are too big doesn't seem like a decent solution to me especially when they are winning (I include in this bracket Choi and not Akebono :D). Maybe its a good argument for the creation of a Super Heavy Weight league but I don't think all of the big guys are just talentless fools (although in fairness some of them are). If Kaoklai had won this fight people would be cheering over how this proves skill is more important than size so I think its a bit of sour grapes to take the huff when someone like Choi uses their size to their advantage.

Secondly, these ridiculous competitors such as the sumo's put paid to some of the irritating and ridiculous hypothetical A 'versus' B discussions. We've seen that smaller people with a weight advantage can knock out bigger opponents with skill (Kaoklai vs. Might Mo), we've seen that having tonnes of weight does not necessarily guarantee you a win- Akebono vs. most everyone and we've seen that size isn't all that important on the ground (Sudo vs. Butterbean). Sumo vs. Ex- Footballer, Big Brawling Boxer vs. Quirky MMA, Thai Boxing vs. Giant Wrestler... they are all just potential threads on MAP that don't need to be started now! :)

Thirdly and lastly, I really enjoy watching for example Buakaw's fights in the MAX tournaments but to be honest if I want to see just a pure kickboxing-esque fight then I'd prefer to watch pure MT fights. K-1 is what it is and it has some excellent fighters amongst its card- I think its a bit of a sad day when people of around my age (21) start looking back to the good old days...

Ghost Frog

23-Mar-2005, 10:57 AM

Secondly, these ridiculous competitors such as the sumo's put paid to some of the irritating and ridiculous hypothetical A 'versus' B discussions. We've seen that smaller people with a weight advantage can knock out bigger opponents with skill (Kaoklai vs. Might Mo), we've seen that having tonnes of weight does not necessarily guarantee you a win- Akebono vs. most everyone and we've seen that size isn't all that important on the ground (Sudo vs. Butterbean). Sumo vs. Ex- Footballer, Big Brawling Boxer vs. Quirky MMA, Thai Boxing vs. Giant Wrestler... they are all just potential threads on MAP that don't need to be started now! :)

Just waiting for the next K1 card then:

Bruce Lee vs Royce Gracie

Tyson vs Akebono

Ninja vs Shaolin Monk

WonderWoman vs Batwoman

My dad vs your dad

:D

Yukimushu

23-Mar-2005, 11:59 AM

I've got no problem with them paying large guys to fight; providing the fighter has skill and is well trained... rather than just signing them up because they're big.

Timmy Boy

28-Mar-2005, 01:38 PM

I get what Ckava's saying but I only agree to a small extent. I acknowledge that K1 isn't supposed to be just about kickboxing but it is still supposed to be about skilled martial artists.

It does make it interesting to have the odd huge powerhouse who has no skill in the ring with an actual fighter EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE to spice things up a bit, but do it too much and the novelty wears off. I agree with Ikken, it's annoying when you're looking forward to a supposedly world class martial arts tournament and all they can offer is a freak show. I think they should either make some king of super heavyweight league for the really big fighters like Ckava suggested (but have actual trained fighters in it), or simply reduce how often they play the freak show card.

jabcrosshook

30-Mar-2005, 11:29 PM

I'm gonna get uberFlamed for this.

:Puts on flame retardant jacket and prepares to burn in hell ;):

I have no problem with K-1 putting big beasts in to fight trained fighters. What does everyone find so ridiculous? If the big guy wins we get "he just used his size". If the big guy loses we get "He wasn't trained". If we let the brutes in and they win, then we have to look at the fighters. The problem is not the fighters, it's the weight categories (or lack of).

Obviously, if the big beast is gonna bend the rules, hit on the ground etc, then he shouldn't be allowed. If, however, he is following the rules then what is the problem? Providing everyone has some sort of "qualifiers" to get on, then I'm cool with that.

The problem with K-1 is the politics of it all. We do not need chair hitting and other similar WWE antics so that Master Iishi can gain more money. We do not need an open weight league, and we certainly do not need the crap judging, refereeing and rule disobeyance that we so commonly see.

The best article about K-1 was on the ikf website about the appauling judging witnessed at K-1 events. I'll try and find it later.

EDIT: We also don't need to see novice fighters (let's say 2 wins 3 losses etc.) fighting Ignashov or Sefo. Fighters need to establish themselves first. If some beast man is taken off the streets into a main event (SAPP) then we have problems. This would stop the unskilled (AKEBONO) ones headlining against other unskilled (SUMO wrestlers and football players) fighters headlining. Furthermore, steroid (SAPP again) induced fighters should not be allowed to compete. One other problem is boxers coming in because they aren't good enough in their own sport. I will now alert you to THE most ridiculous thing ever in K-1's history...

Ray "Merciful :P" Mercer was allowed to wear shoes providing he didnt kick. Umm Ray, this is a variant of kickboxing. If you don't like kicking, then disappear matey :p

jabcrosshook

30-Mar-2005, 11:42 PM

BTW, Ikken, who's that big guy in the first photo? He looks quite good :rolleyes:

Goju

30-Mar-2005, 11:45 PM

I guess it's just started a recent downfall because (although I don't follow K1) I have an old video of K1's greatest fights and there were some really amazing fights. The weight classes were good (I think? were Mike Bernardo and Andy Hug the same weight? because it doesn't look it) and they showed some really great fighters like Peter Aerts, Hoost, Bernardo (love his punching power), Hug (who I just found out was dead), and Lebanner, the best knockouts ever. They were some of the best fights I've seen, but when I watch more recent stuff, it's kinda stupid. For example, Bob Sapp sucks so bad (in comparison to other fighters) and somebody mentioned how people always say "he just uses his size", well it's true in Sapp's case, he has no punching skill and on occasion he'll use a lazy, slow, roundhouse kick. The crowds over there can't seem to get enough of him though.

Eero

10-May-2005, 10:06 AM

I just saw these fights last night on Eurosport. I thought I might have a nice evening with good sport entertaiment and this crap was all I got. I don't ever want to see fighters like Choi or Akebono again. When Akebono came to compete in K1 I thought it was fun to see him in the ring but this Choi guy was just too much.

Some of the worst fights I have seen. I agree that K1 is turning into some weird freakshow. It felt awful to see a decent fighter like Kaoklai in such silly event.

Ikken Hisatsu

10-May-2005, 10:47 AM

yeah I felt sorry for kaoklai, he was the only actual fighter in the whole line up. the rest were either freakshows, referees, or cans. still, at least theres k-1 max- the line up this year looks awesome, and there are no freakshows in max- all quality fighters.

johndoch

10-May-2005, 12:21 PM

Just watched it last night too.

If that last fight was held in Thailand Kaoklai Kaennorsing might have won the whole thing.

oni78

10-May-2005, 12:35 PM

that was the first time i turned k1 off last night. painfull to watch. and they had muay thai on men and motors for some reason... then the ultimate fighter and ufc on bravo. monday night tv rocks.

jabcrosshook

10-May-2005, 04:08 PM

I watched it, too. Hell, Akebono won a match. What does that say about his opponent?

Choi was so obviously gonna win. Look at his size. 7 foot 2 (or similar) against anyone of a normal size is a mismatch.

Very bad event.

Ikken Hisatsu

10-May-2005, 07:29 PM

actually I thought kaoklai DID win. he landed more shots and was way busier. but how does it look for k-1 when this little guy with actual skill comes along and beats all their freakshows?

Eero

11-May-2005, 05:33 AM

slipthejab

11-May-2005, 05:54 AM

Some very salient points by both crowds here.

One thing is regards to K-1 is the art imitating reality or would that be reality imitating a video game?

Think about it...
From the land of the Playstation, Gameboy and CapCom and countless other vid games comes K-1... so these kind of matchups are almost expected in Japan. :eek: I think the Japanese would lose interest otherwise. With all the Japanese cultural mores regarding honor and being a warrior and all that - can you imagine if they stopped having Akebono in? He's like a friggin' national hero in Japan. In the west most people have no idea what kind of regard he's held in. In Japan even grandmothers know his name. It's insane. So of course there is a huge draw for him.

On top of that the Japanese have some of the most radical and unique mythology, folk tales and ghost stories - so these match ups mirror that same kind of a thing. The massive size differences - the underdogs the freakish giants etc. - all of these fit into that same vein.

Many of the fighting games characters are based on real life fighters - with one even doing the spooky Ramon Dekker head twist. lol. So I think now it's come full circle and they're looking to subconsciously immitate the video games that most of them have grown up playing. lol.

Ok - that theory and $2.50 will get you a cup of coffee @ Starbucks. :D

afterthought... this will be my masters thesis. LOL! :eek:

As for Kaoklai - I am 6'2" and I wouldn't want to have to fight the guy. LOL. :D

bcullen

11-May-2005, 06:18 AM

Wow! I turn my head for a few and look what happens.

I can't argue the entertainment value of a freakshow battle but couldn't they do it under another banner. I thought seeing skilled fighters like Remy and Michael McDonald was what k-1 was about.

K-1: is Fine as it is
WWE: Is what it is
Mixing the K-1 and WWE: Is a borderline marketing strategy and a real bad idea.

johndoch

11-May-2005, 02:21 PM

actually I thought kaoklai DID win. he landed more shots and was way busier. but how does it look for k-1 when this little guy with actual skill comes along and beats all their freakshows?

I totally agree.

I thought Kaoklai really saved the whole show plus the fights he had on the way to the final were way harder and more entertaining than the giant Korean's fights(What was his name again???). It's just a pity that his earlier fights were overshadowed by the freakshow element of the event :cry:

Who did the Big Korean fight? Two sumo guys who shouldn't have been there in the first place. The Akebono fight was an absolute disgrace and the other one wasnt much better.

CKava

11-May-2005, 02:26 PM

Sever

11-May-2005, 02:36 PM

Just out of curiousity who do people think Choi should fight?Choi will inevitably face Bob Sapp
Choi will also most likely face Giant Silva (or Montany Silva, whatever his name is, the other tall dude from Brazil) in what will be billed as the "tallest pro fight in history." I will turn the TV off
Choi will face Musashi in Japan, beat the crap out of him for three rounds and lose the decision
Choi will face one of K-1's few remaining decent fighters and get chewed up and then they'll feed him to every decent fighter they've got just like they did with Sapp.
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Choi make the transition to Heroes which is the K-1 financed MMA organisation. With his wrestling skills, he'll probably do OK

johndoch

11-May-2005, 06:38 PM

Just out of curiousity who do people think Choi should fight? Im assuming people shouldn't think that he shouldnt be allowed to compete just because of his size so who can he fight? Like I said on the first page if they create a super heavweight division then the problem would be solved but until they do that I think its abit unfair of people to just slam fighters like Choi all the time. Its not exactly his fault he is that size and as for being completely unskilled I dont know I certainly wouldnt put him in the same category as Akebono.

Choi is certainly not in the same category as Akebono or that other Sumo fighter he faced on the night. The fact is, on that night he faced possibly the easiest route to the final I've seen whereas Koaklai had way harder fights to get to the final, was over a foot smaller in height, was half the bodyweight of Choi and still came out fighting and probably deserved to win the fight. I'll rephrase that deserved to win the fight and if it had been anywhere else but South Korea would have won the fight.

I think the point of this discussion is K1's persistent attempts to satisfy non fight fans, when people who know better know the standard is out there to provide a show based on fighting skill rather than pure spectacle.

jabcrosshook

11-May-2005, 10:47 PM

actually I thought kaoklai DID win. he landed more shots and was way busier. but how does it look for k-1 when this little guy with actual skill comes along and beats all their freakshows?

Fair point, but we must consider many factors here:

•Look how popular Choi was
•This is K-1. When was the last time a K-1 judge got something right?
•Kaoklai didn't really hurt Choi. All he seemed to do was bounce off him at regular intervals. Does not really constitute winning
•Yep - he landed more shots and was busier, but he didn't really hurt Choi which, when it comes down to it, is what the K-1 judges are looking for
•Choi is 7 foot something
•The sentence in your quote which I have underlined probably sums up the decision. Their freakshow can't look bad.

Ikken Hisatsu

12-May-2005, 08:43 AM

yeah... thats what I meant. they CANT let a little guy like that beat their big new freakshow, the judges decision was decided before the fight even started. just like his fight against musashi. kaoklai might not have hurt choi, but choi didnt hurt kaoklai and really didnt land anything.

johndoch

12-May-2005, 09:20 AM

•Look how popular Choi was

Whats that got to do with winning a fight???

•This is K-1. When was the last time a K-1 judge got something right?

Eh??? Probably most of the fights on the night were called right

•Kaoklai didn't really hurt Choi. All he seemed to do was bounce off him at regular intervals. Does not really constitute winning

Choi didnt hurt Kaoklai either so your comment here doesnt make any real sense

•Yep - he landed more shots and was busier, but he didn't really hurt Choi which, when it comes down to it, is what the K-1 judges are looking for

No. If you dont KO or knock down your opponent then winning a fight is about landing more legal shots than your opponent. In the Choi/Kaoklai fight no one was knocked down (or hurt as you put it)so how do you score it

•Choi is 7 foot something

And this matters why? Surely its about the skill not the size

•The sentence in your quote which I have underlined probably sums up the decision. Their freakshow can't look bad.

It did

jabcrosshook

13-May-2005, 11:30 PM

Whats that got to do with winning a fight???
Judges decision :)

Eh??? Probably most of the fights on the night were called right

Please don't say that k-1 judging is good or even acceptable!

Choi didnt hurt Kaoklai either so your comment here doesnt make any real sense

Well it does, because kaoklai appeared weaker to the judges. He bounced off Choi regularly and hit the deck. We're debating why the judges didn't give it to kaoklai, btw :)

No. If you dont KO or knock down your opponent then winning a fight is about landing more legal shots than your opponent. In the Choi/Kaoklai fight no one was knocked down (or hurt as you put it)so how do you score it

There is a lot to judging a fight. Judges can be influenced. A simple example would be a fighter producing a flurry at the end of a round, to give a good impression of that round, or raising his hands at the end. It's also about physical condition, and penalties (kaoklai received a yellow card, if I remember rightly)

And this matters why? Surely its about the skill not the size

How much are freaks loved over there? Choi, Bob Sapp etc.

It did

We agree :):):)

tekkengod

14-May-2005, 02:49 AM

I think it would be only fitting that the judges wern't just people from the states athletic division, but other fighters or retired fighters. i'd love to see shamrock replace Doug about now and i think that all fighters should be judges at one point, or at the minimal, people who understand the game a little better.

johndoch

16-May-2005, 10:04 AM

Judges decision :)

Yes but its a sad day when Judges give a fight to someone based on popularity:(

Please don't say that k-1 judging is good or even acceptable!

On the night how many decisions did you disagree with??? Personally thought the judging was ok (on the night) up until the last fight

Well it does, because kaoklai appeared weaker to the judges. He bounced off Choi regularly and hit the deck. We're debating why the judges didn't give it to kaoklai, btw :)

They never gave it to Kaoklai because of home support. And I cant remember choi landing one good clean shot. So whats that all about??? Kaoklai may have been bouncing off Choi but surely Choi has to hit his opponent to win not just lean on the guy

There is a lot to judging a fight. Judges can be influenced. A simple example would be a fighter producing a flurry at the end of a round, to give a good impression of that round, or raising his hands at the end. It's also about physical condition, and penalties (kaoklai received a yellow card, if I remember rightly)

If a judge is affected by a flurry of punches at the end of the round or raising their hands when they clearly lost the round then they simply shouldnt be judging.

You are right about the card. Seemed to indicate to the judges which way they should score they fight.

How much are freaks loved over there? Choi, Bob Sapp etc.

Come on I like freaks but love the ones that can actually fight :D

We agree :):):)

Yes we indeedy do :)

nForce

29-May-2005, 08:18 PM

Guys did any small guys win over the big guys?

Are was it a classic example of size does matter.

Ikken Hisatsu

29-May-2005, 08:24 PM

uh, did you watch the event? Kaoklai beat two guys who were a fair size bigger, and in my opinion, he won the fight with Choi. Look at Kaoklais k-1 record so far- a superior level of skill can beat size.

jabcrosshook

29-May-2005, 08:43 PM

Yes but its a sad day when Judges give a fight to someone based on popularity:(

True, but the statement is still factually correct!

On the night how many decisions did you disagree with??? Personally thought the judging was ok (on the night) up until the last fight

Ah - that's on the night. I'm talking of K-1 as a whole and saying don't be surprised at a bad decision (x10)

They never gave it to Kaoklai because of home support. And I cant remember choi landing one good clean shot. So whats that all about??? Kaoklai may have been bouncing off Choi but surely Choi has to hit his opponent to win not just lean on the guy

Difficult subject. Judges do get influenced, though. I understand what you're saying but at the end of the day it's not up to us

If a judge is affected by a flurry of punches at the end of the round or raising their hands when they clearly lost the round then they simply shouldnt be judging.

Once again, quite true. However, these people ARE judging!

Yes we indeedy do :)

:D (But learn correct English ;))