kata? Worth practising nowdays

[mani]

I would like to know what your views are on kata and practising it nowdays.

Is it worth training Kata for REAL STREER FIGHTING or do we just do it cause it looks good, and so we do not lose that traditional essence of karate. In my opinion it is not worth training kata nowdays, because we do not practice enough of it (many years back the masters use to spend a few years on one kata getting it to perfection) now that is worth it, as this increases the persons speed, reaction time and many more aspects.

I am not against kata training, but what I think should be re-thought is the fact that are we practising it the way we were supposed to, and the way we were taught by our masters. Therefore my opinion is that if we know that we do not practise Kata properly then why bother and waste time, when it would be more useful if we concentrate on our sparring techniques and preferablly small combination that are more effective than Kata training nowdays.

[YODA]

Is it worth training Kata for REAL STREER FIGHTING

No - it isn't.

But that doesn't mean it's not worth doing Kata. It depends what your goals & motives are.

*Sit's down with popcorn & fire extinguisher :p

[TkdWarrior]

*Sit's down with popcorn & fire extinguisher *

:D yoda u mind if i add some chilli sauce??
-TkdWarrior-

[YODA]

Be my guest - any nachos for that sauce? :p

[Cain]

I will take all the three methods :D

|Cain|

[Kwan Jang]

-I feel that kata is of great value as a PART of your training. First, as you perfect body mechanics, you get more bang for your buck. I do a good amount of cardio and full squat over 800lbs and do the chinese splits. None of these things are directly working on my self defense, street fighting, or combat skills. However, like kata practice, I feel they make me a more effective fighter. In addition to better technique, the pattern of turns helps preframe angles of attack and defense against multiple opponents. Finally, they map out pressure point attacks, if you learn how to read the map. For those who are wise enough to recognize the xalue of what the previous generations of masters felt was so vital to be passed down, take advantage of it.(BTW-I don't believe in being bound by tradition and ritual, but not disregard the value in it either.) For those who lack the wisdom, well, this way my students can stay ahead of you.LOL.

[Killerbee]

Actually I think the Kata we practise today all suck. What we need are new Katas for a modern time. Anyway the practical applications of most kata have just gotten lost over time and we dont really practise in such a way that we could really make our kata bunkai work, i.e in karate we NEVER practise throws or grips, eventhough basicly every kata includes them.

[gingerninja]

Originally posted by Killerbee
Actually i.e in karate we NEVER practise throws or grips, eventhough basicly every kata includes them.

Speak for yourself

If you ain't doing throws or grips, go find an instructor that does.;)

[gingerninja]

Oops just seen that Killerbee is Shotokan stylist. Defect to Wado! You know you want to!!

[Knight_Errant]

Yes, defect to wado!

I voted for 'physical conditioning and sparring', but also I think shadow boxing a.k.a. kata is a very good tool for sorting out what you are doing in your head and getting to grips before you do it for real. But I prefer my own shadow boxing- kata were useful at one time, but I prefer something that I actually know what it means. That said, I can't see a lot wrong with keeping the kata around for fun and for musing

[Sonshu]

Big thread on this and I guess people know my views on it.

I feel that people could use the time better for self defence purposes.

I train souly for the self defence side and as a result I have not suffered because I chose not to continue Kata (well as far as I guess) and I feel I have spent the time better.

Still perfection and gentle pose, rememberance of set orders of moves and all is not my thing - I do however feel many potential good martial arts people are lost every year because they forgot a move from a Kata.

Yet many could proberbly kick my butt - it is a shame!

SONSHU

[pgm316]

Worth it if you have the time and you think thats the best way to spend it!

The End

:D

[Killerbee]

Actually ive already "defected" to Kyokushinkai and I just love the full contact fighting, I dont think any other style can give me what kyokushinkai gives me.

[gingerninja]

Originally posted by Killerbee
Actually ive already "defected" to Kyokushinkai and I just love the full contact fighting, I dont think any other style can give me what kyokushinkai gives me.

Funny that I started out in Kyukushinkai and defected to Wado. I got in alot of trouble for sparring full contact instead of light contact though:D

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Knight_errant
, but also I think shadow boxing a.k.a. kata

NO!!!

Kata is not shadow boxing!!!

Two very different things

[Knight_Errant]

Kata IS shadow boxing. It is also performance art, folk dance and a convoluted form of aerobics. I think we should keep them around- at the very least, they can do little actual harm. At the most, you can of course have a look and try and piece together some of the meanings. Some of the unearthed sequences (see shawn jefferson's kata analysis) are very very cool...

[YODA]

No - KATA is NOT shadow boxing.

Shadowboxing is free form - spontaneous - ALIVE!

KATA is fixed - predetermined and DEAD.

[johndoch]

Sad thing is though I'll bet before people started formalising the arts the kata probably was alive and fluid just like shadow boxing.

The people that started the kata must have done it fluidly and with aliveness in order to capture the attention of others who copied them trained monkeys.



If I made up my own Kata with say, 20 techniques and varied the cominations would that not be the same as having a shadow boxing routine with 20 techniques or is it not possible to make your own kata up and keep it alive.

I would vote for conditioning and sparring until you are to old then you can really appreciate your kata

[pgm316]

Was Kata ever fluid?

They have two different aims, shadow boxing to get you moving against an imaginary opponent and Kata to hold the moves and techniques of the style. Kata doesn't use your imagination in the same way, I think its always been a dead pattern.

[johndoch]

I disagree I reckon kata became dead when it was copied and copied and copied.

If you take the moves from your formal kata and perform them in the same manner as shadow boxing against imaginary opponents is that not alive? I believe this is how kata can be performed.

[Knight_Errant]

yeah, right on.

[mani]

I definetely agree with that, kata has become dead over the years and things have to be re-thought

[Knight_Errant]

yes, o god yes. Take shawn jefferson's interpretation of the first move of heian 1 and work it into your next shadowboxing session. Then try it sparring... I like it very much.

[gingerninja]

Originally posted by johndoch
I disagree I reckon kata became dead when it was copied and copied and copied.

If you take the moves from your formal kata and perform them in the same manner as shadow boxing against imaginary opponents is that not alive? I believe this is how kata can be performed.

Yep and Yep

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by YODA
No - KATA is NOT shadow boxing.

Shadowboxing is free form - spontaneous - ALIVE!

KATA is fixed - predetermined and DEAD.

KATA is a book to take up and read, to interpret at your leisure.

Shadow boxing is more akin to creative writing.

That's like saying The Bible is useless because it was written a long time ago.

[YODA]

I didn't say it was BAD - just FIXED and DEAD :D

[pgm316]

Some dead things are good, kebabs for instance! :D

I really don't mean to be awkward, argumentatitititve or annoy anyone but I can't see the problem with sticking to my big book of kung fu instead of patternz............... Even if its not as good, it gets the job done.

What do you think Yoda, you've kept pretty quiet in these debates ;)

[YODA]

I think KATA is absolutely useless in respect to fighting ability and can in some cases actually have a negative effect.

I think it's used by many as a tool to keep students paying out for more gradings.

I think it's used by many as a refuge from alive training with a resisting opponent.

I think it's fun and I do it (of sorts).

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by YODA
I think KATA is absolutely useless in respect to fighting ability and can in some cases actually have a negative effect.

I think it's used by many as a tool to keep students paying out for more gradings.

I think it's used by many as a refuge from alive training with a resisting opponent.

I think it's fun and I do it (of sorts).

I could discuss each of these points with you in isolation and agree with you Yoda, but don't agree with your post at all, as it largely generalises.

Once more, I take a stand on this, but it does seem to me to be largely a Karate/TKD problem, and I hate to see CMA forms being collectively dismissed with Kata by people who have never practiced them (referring specifically to CMA forms).

[YODA]

Of course my answer generalises ----"kata? Worth practising nowdays" is a pretty general question :D

Point of note: the "kata" I do practice are mainly non-Japanese :D

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by YODA


1/ Of course my answer generalises ----"kata? Worth practising nowdays" is a pretty general question :D

2/ Point of note: the "kata" I do practice are mainly non-Japanese :D

1/ So it might warrant a more 'open' answer?

2/ I know, I've seen one of your FMA.....err.... forms? So you feel that some non Japanese systems are 'less-useless'?

Why use the word Kata? It brings back memories of an awful Shotokan class I had to do to keep someone happy this year.

If I could use a sweeping generalisation myself; :D

The type of people who can't be bothered putting the effort into every aspect of training, should that include Kata or not, never seem to amount to much!

[wayofthedragon]

Ok, I see I'm late here, put I'm gon' spill my beans anyway, although I didn't take time to read what every one else said (sorry guys, but I'm runnining out of time). First of all I notice there wasn't a section in the poll that said conditioning, sparing, and forms, kata or whatever you call'em. I think they all are important. In my view, I would say that conditioning and sparring is more important than forms, however when it comes down to traditional arts i think that forms are really important in order to keep tradition of the art. Thats in my view. I didn't do much form training. Also, along with conditioning, sparing, and kata, lets not forget drills, various other senarios that teaches techniques which can take place in a class which is also a good way to train................ummmm, where was I..........oh yeh
..........I think that while training in martial arts, all of these should be incorperated in some way or another. They can all teach valuabe lessions. However if an instructor feels one is less important and wishes not to use it in training, maybe he has a good reason why he feels that way, and should be respected, however, not always agreed with. As for me, I feel they all are important......

damn what was I saying, I lost track....oh well, maybe it'll make sense when u guys read it

[Knight_Errant]

You could try stopping attacking the way Yoda answers questions, and discussing the actual points raised. Yeah, maybe kata is a book to be read at your leisure, but the way I read it is to work it into my shadow boxing. Like the guy said, not all dead things are bad, but you do have to eat kebabs before they can be any good.

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Andy Murray

The type of people who can't be bothered putting the effort into every aspect of training, should that include Kata or not, never seem to amount to much!

I agree, what you do is less important than the effort you out into it.


wayofthedragon

I think they all are important.

i think that forms are really important in order to keep tradition of the art.

I think that while training in martial arts, all of these should be incorperated in some way or another.

They can all teach valuabe lessions.

As for me, I feel they all are important......


So you think there important do you? :D

Not picking on your post WOTD, many are similar in these threads. People put value in them but cannot say why in detail it helps there training.

Knight_errant

Like the guy said, not all dead things are bad, but you do have to eat kebabs before they can be any good.

Wrong, no good will ever come from kebabs! :D

Eating them fun, but they will not do you any good!

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by pgm316
I People put value in them but cannot say why in detail it helps there training.


Jeez pgm, how much detail do you need?

Ozebob, Mike Flanagan and myself have written bloomin pages on the subject.

[pgm316]

Oh yeah Mike an Ozebob know why they like them, I meant people that like doing them because they are worth doing because erm... they have value and urm tradition and stuff! In them :D

I was negative towards them, I saw value in them as a part of my training! Playing devils advocate "slightly" I was hoping these threads would convince me the forms I do are really helping me. Ok, some of the CMA forms are great, simple with plenty or techniques, easy to learn, get you moving and stuff. But to spend a fair amount of time doing kata, no way, its just not for me!

[Knight_Errant]

Ok, I can live with that.

[gingerninja]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
KATA is a book to take up and read, to interpret at your leisure.

Shadow boxing is more akin to creative writing.

That's like saying The Bible is useless because it was written a long time ago.

Ooh, I like that!

[Knight_Errant]

well, modern day christians have deviated quite a way from christ's original groovy idea...

[Andy Murray]

That's true.

If he existed, I don't believe he would have expected otherwise.

[Knight_Errant]

I think he existed. I just don't buy the whole supreme being thing. personally. Well, maybe the MArtists who put the kata together did expect people to deviate from them. Maybe they didn't. Who knows...

[Adam]

I think the kata has lost it's original meaning. I don't know why, It's just a feeling I get going through the seemingly meaningless movements. What the original meaning was, I don't know.

But it may be just me being a karate retard :D

[Knight_Errant]

No, I haven't found anyone who DOES know what all the meanings are. I could give a few groovy hints if you're interested...

[gojutejutsuryu]

ABSALODDLE,

Kata is the DNA of Karate and the life blood of ALL Ancient Martial Sciences.
As to being effective training against a street fighter, MMMMMMMMMh. Hell, I give up, but can only point to Shihan Keiji Tomiyama, who I recently had the priviledge of training with, his Kata is immaculate, it lives within him and no, he does'nt become part of the kata, it becomes part of him.
The Shihan trains daily in kata and I would feel exceptionally sorry for any 3 or 4 street fighters who made the mistake of considering the Shihan as an easy target.

However, that's only my oppinion.

MAY THE FORCE ALWAYS BE WITH YOU.

gojutejutsuryu.

[mani]

Sorry to say but I think this forum has been mislaed and has been changed from its original state.

the question was (is kata worth practising nowdays?) not how valuable kata is or how negative it is.

Or how someone loves kata and trains kata everyday