Martial Art v.s. Martial Sport

[American HKD]

Greetings

I seen it posted elsewhere but in discussions about BJJ and Hapkido.

One's a "sport" geared towards sport compeptition and one's "Mudo" Martial way.

The Philosophy behind each one is very different, BJJ, Olympic Judo or TKD, College wrestling, Boxing are all one in the same mentally, and Philosophically.

Mudo on the other hand is a way of life beyond the sport realm as is the approach to learning and training in techniques.

I'm hoping this thread doesn't digress into who's tougher or which art is better.

I'm speaking in the Philosphical sense about the different approaches to training and the purpose or goal of what is expected out of training.

Please use your thinking caps here.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

wow this topic has never been done before! I expect a real quality conversation to come from this one.

[ubermint]

Sometimes I feel like Sysiphus.

[American HKD]

Sometimes I feel like Sysiphus.

Me too

[Covaliufan]

Unless you're in the military, you're not likely to be an actual, practicing warrior (what army are YOU in, American HKD?). I doubt those who are actually in the military (who by definition are the ones really following the martial way) are living anything like your so called "Mudo."

However, us bjj'ers, muay thai fighters, boxers, judo players, wrestlers, and hell, let's take pity and throw in some tae kwon do fighters: we all actually are what we strive to be, combat athletes.

Errr...sorry, I can't really remember your point. What was it again?

[American HKD]

Greetings,

You can ease up on the sarcasim.

I suppose what I'm trying to relate may be taken out of context or you don't understand.

Combat Athletes is a new term for me, is a college wrestler a combat athlete or a boxer, TKD, Ok I agree.

But I believe what you speak of is still in realm of sports, I speak of Martial Arts.

Ok you don't like the term Mudo, but street survival is more about Mudo than a combat athlete who trains for the ring IMO. I don't know to many Bjj guys or Thai Boxers who have good weapons skills or expirience against multiple attackers etc.

I train for real self defense situations and the street not the ring, again this is the philosophy of Mudo.

Mudo is alive and kicking and realistic for modern MA training and society.

[Covaliufan]

There are a lot of assumptions behind what you just said that I simply don't buy into, but hey, maybe I really don't understand. So clarify for me:

What is it about believing in Mudo that makes a "martial artist" better able to fight than someone who trains to get into cages and fight until knock out or submission?

Can someone in the Mudo way out fight one such "cage fighter" in an unarmed fight? If you think yes, do you have any evidence to support this opinion? If no, what makes the Mudo guy better equipped to fight several people at once than the cage fighter who can beat the crap out of him?

Let's tackle that first, before getting to weapons.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

Greetings,


I train for real self defense situations and the street not the ring, again this is the philosophy of Mudo.

Mudo is alive and kicking and realistic for modern MA training and society.


were you going to make a point here or have you finished?

[American HKD]

Greetings

I will not get sucked into who can beat who as I said in my opening post.

My point is only in the type of training and the philosophy behind it.

What weaoponry does a BJJ practioner or a Muay Thai fighter train with and master?

I will say in the street all that applies and if I pull a knife it's not a dirty trick in Mudo normal part of survival.

This is what you seem not to want to take in consideration

[NaughtyKnight]

I do my TKF for sport (its 2mins walk from me) and the master is one of the best in Aus in WTF.

I do JKD for self defence.

There is a huge distinction between them. Not the arts but by how we train. In tkd its alot of sparing, but its more focused on the sport aspect of fighting. Set rules, set targets, and set time limits. We do alot of drills by ourselves and focus on tecniques that score.

We do focus on sd, but its kept to a minimum compared to my JKD.

In JKD we train completly differently. Everything is done with a resisting partner trying to beat your head in. We fight only full contact with random rules, we use anything that causes damage (in a controlled way) and forget the flashy moves. Its more of a fight club with mates, we focus on making eachother better and use any technique regardless of style or range. There is not competetions we go to, we dont train for gradings only on bettering our street fighting ability. All the drills we do are with our partners and if you screw it up you get hit, hard.

You have to have a clear distinction between what you want from your ma. There is a large difference between sport and self defence, not that you cant learn both from each other.

Sorry for hi jacking your thread guys.

[American HKD]

Greetings

To continue I was in a rush last post. Please remember here I'm not bashing just comparing!

Olympic TKD scrore kick for points ( specialty system )
Olympic Judo throws or conrtrols for points ( specialty system )
Muay Thai score blows for point or KO like boxing ( specialty system )
Bjj tap or choke out for points ( specialty system )

All good combat sports and may have some self defense applications as well and many good proponents come from them however not complete MA systems from my point of view. Becuase they specialize in mainly in one area like BJJ or Boxing. In reality you must take in to account as many factors as possible to survive.

Hapkido, Ninjutsu, Jujutsu, and others for example have more training from wider variety of attacks and use many tatics to survive including weapons. Some of the more traditional schools with good lineage are taught many techniques to the high Dan students that are designed to kill, cripple, 1,2,3, over.

These techniques however are not known to the public and are (secret if you will) no joke!, and are mainly reserved for Master levels and the like and used as last resort material.

I believe you maybe looking at things through a narrow window, its not your fault you are a product as I'm I of your expiriences, and yours are different than mine. Also I been around in MA for over 25yrs and have had the opportunity to be a student of some of the worlds best Masters.

That's basically all I have to say on the subject, so you can either can open your mind and reseach all the real possiblities that exist or defend a narrow idea that the combat sports are new answer to MA.

[American HKD]

I do my TKF for sport (its 2mins walk from me) and the master is one of the best in Aus in WTF.

I do JKD for self defence.

There is a huge distinction between them. Not the arts but by how we train. In tkd its alot of sparing, but its more focused on the sport aspect of fighting. Set rules, set targets, and set time limits. We do alot of drills by ourselves and focus on tecniques that score.

We do focus on sd, but its kept to a minimum compared to my JKD.

In JKD we train completly differently. Everything is done with a resisting partner trying to beat your head in. We fight only full contact with random rules, we use anything that causes damage (in a controlled way) and forget the flashy moves. Its more of a fight club with mates, we focus on making eachother better and use any technique regardless of style or range. There is not competetions we go to, we dont train for gradings only on bettering our street fighting ability. All the drills we do are with our partners and if you screw it up you get hit, hard.

You have to have a clear distinction between what you want from your ma. There is a large difference between sport and self defence, not that you cant learn both from each other.

Sorry for hi jacking your thread guys.


No hi jack that's what I'm trying to get across in one way

[NaughtyKnight]

I respect your opinion mate, but posting that is just opening for flames.

[American HKD]

I respect your opinion mate, but posting that is just opening for flames.

Yeah maybe your right but I hope not.

If it gets out of hand

#1. I won't continue with the conversation

#2. It will show the maturity level of people who can't handle a contrary opinion.

[doshim]

I will try to shed some light on the difference. A true martial artist (and this is my opinion-although I know it is shared by many who get it) does not train solely to become a killing machine. Yes, you will learn some truly amazing self-defense techniques, you will get in great shape, and you will push yourself, physically. A person who trains to be a martial artist doesn’t limit him/herself to the physical realm. Once someone has chosen the martial path, it is about moving through the world with courtesy, dignity, and integrity. All the while, retaining your sense of humility. Just reading some of the language and tone of previous posts, the point has been made for me.

I have been involved in sports all my life. Football, Basketball, Soccer, etc… I still play tennis. Although, there was tremendous growth in me, it pales in comparison to the complete mind, body, and spirit of traditional martial arts training, the lifetime pursuit of perfection of character. There is no other place I have found where you are reminded of that on a daily basis just by walking through the doors of the Dojang.

There was a glimpse of it in The Last Samurai. Although, it was a big Hollywood movie with Tom Cruise, had some flaws, etc…It did touch on the theme. You saw the Samurai doing some intense physical training. It also showed how they balanced themselves through meditation, paying attention to the details, and living with dignity in and out of battle.

It’s a tripod. If one leg of the tripod isn’t given the same amount of attention, it topples. The ultimate goal for any Black Belt should be “Harmony”, perfect balance of the mind, body, and spirit. This only comes through laser-like focus in your art.

[Thomas]

I'm speaking in the Philosphical sense about the different approaches to training and the purpose or goal of what is expected out of training.


Not only is the maxim "You fight the way you train" fit here, but so does "Your training should match your goals."

People train for various reasons and their training should fit their goals. I think sometime speople get too wrapped up on what works for them and try to push it on people who really don't care.

Believe it or not, there are (lots of) people out there who take martial arts like TKD (which I teach) for the basic reasons to (1) get in better shape, (2) have fun competing under Olympic rules, and (3) get out of the house and get a good sweat. As an instructor, I create classes to fit these needs because they are my students and ultimately I have a responsibility to teach them what they ask for.

Beyond that, there are students who come to TKD classes for the history and culture... so we teach that. There are others who come for self defence... and we teach that. The same goes for Hapkido (very popular with our law enforcement students).

As an instructor, I must tailor my teaching to the needs of my students. For my competiton TKD students, I learn the latest sparring drills and rules. For my Hapkdio and self defence students, I stay abreast of the latest self defence theories and programs and am constantly revising and reorganizing what I teach.

As for the philosphical side... it depends on the students. Some are there for a few years of fun and competition and others are there for the long haul and will build the martial concepts into their mental concepts and morals.

I have seen some students start with the sport side and end up lifelong practitioners with a strong philosphical background. I also have seen a lot of young competitors who do great in the ring and learn all they can... the they drop out of martial arts when they lose the "competitive edge".

[doshim]

Originally posted by: Thomas
Believe it or not, there are (lots of) people out there who take martial arts like TKD (which I teach) for the basic reasons to (1) get in better shape, (2) have fun competing under Olympic rules, and (3) get out of the house and get a good sweat. As an instructor, I create classes to fit these needs because they are my students and ultimately I have a responsibility to teach them what they ask for. [/I]

With all due respect, Thomas, I think it is up to us as instructors to enlighten these people who come through our doors. It's up to us to say, "Hey, it's not just a gym. You're very lucky because it is so much more and here's why..."

Sure, give them what they initially came in for, but go above and beyond by letting them in on the full potential of a martial artist.

[Getalifebud]

I also think that the individual trains for what they want to do, and I think that over time a person will find the bestway to fulfil their needs. I also think there is a large difference between more sporty MA and MA where it is a survival art, and neither is wrong, they both fulfil different needs for different people.

[Thomas]

With all due respect, Thomas, I think it is up to us as instructors to enlighten these people who come through our doors. It's up to us to say, "Hey, it's not just a gym. You're very lucky because it is so much more and here's why..."

Sure, give them what they initially came in for, but go above and beyond by letting them in on the full potential of a martial artist.

I agree with you in theory and actively model this approach. We are a small school that is designed primarily to earn enough money to keep the school alive and provide a place for us to train. The part-time students and the students who train for fun (especially families) are not coming to us to get deeply into the martial arts at this point and they come for the reasons I posted. Their support is the main thing that keeps the school alive so we do our absolute best to give them good training that fits their goals.

Some of those students get sucked into the more martial side of what we do and grow and learn with us. They tend to see some of the Hapkido and express a desire to check it out. We let them come in and try it out. Some people don't like it and some do. Out of most students, a greater majority train for a few years in TKD and eventually move on to other things. Advanced philosphical and physical training ina martial art is not for everyone. However, increased fitness and fun can be.


Our Hapkido program tends to be much smaller (not self-sufficient) and is focused on a realisitic self defence program. This does not appeal to all (especially since we don't allow people under 13). The techniques, reality, pressure are all not designed for everyone.

[American HKD]

Greetings

I agree with Doshim & Thomas people train for different reasons and goals.

Mine is pure self-defense, healthy mind & body, stress relief, fun, artistic goals.

I will never would have entered the UFC not that I think it's bad, it's just not part of my goals and I'm to old, also being a family man I need to earn a living so I can't train as a full time job.

In my school I teach for Self defense what ever works and the Art aspect, that's my personal approach.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

I do it for the sport, self defense is a side issue in comparison. You are trying to start a debate when their isnt one. no one ever claimed you would learn weapon defense through doing muay thai.

[American HKD]

I do it for the sport, self defense is a side issue in comparison. You are trying to start a debate when their isnt one. no one ever claimed you would learn weapon defense through doing muay thai.

Greeting,

My point from the beginning was to compare the differences.

If your happy with what you do and self-defense is secondary that's what important to you and that's great.

No debate about weapons is needed, my point was that combat sports don't run the full gammet of self-defense training even if the practicioners are good fighters, in great shape, etc.

Mudo oriented systems are more street realistic in many ways, but may not be as good in a ring under more controled conditions.

BTW my comments weren't to agrue with you and were mainly for Convaliulan based on his responce to my comments. :)

[shadow warrior]

As much as people would like to cut and dry such debates there is no way to account for all of the variables involved.

I would modify a statement made earlier by Amercian HKD.

"Mudo oriented systems are potentially more street realistic"...given countless variables, that the.. ..instructor is not just an acedemic dojang product..the student trains diligently..for a very long time...gets some realistic, hands on legal experience dealing with violence and explores daily their own spiritual enlightenment..through self examination and correction behaviors.

Sport oriented systems TEND to employ fewer techniques and senarios, do to various incarnations of rules and the focus of their training..to engage in fighting for some type of personal gain! Ego, testing themselves without much fear of being killed, plastic statue, money..ect.

Routine self defense, third party protection, law enforcement, military application, family protection senarios are so diverse as to be completely different situations.

Information is power! The more diversified experience a person accumulates, the better position they are in to make decisions which will produce the correct result... You will remain alive! Regaurdless of whether you consider your backround Sport or Art.

FWIW

[Midnight Mist]

"A true martial artist (and this is my opinion-although I know it is shared by many who get it) does not train solely to become a killing machine."


That's the second time I've seen you use that term in regard to participants in combat sports.

Is that really how you view MMA fighters? How about Judoka, wrestlers, boxers, or kickboxers? Are they training to kill people? MMA is only a combination of those other sports.

If these guys are trying to become "killing machines" they won't be on the street for very long. The sport won't remain legal for very long. I don't think you are giving MMA fighters very much credit for being mature, sane individuals.

There are "bad boys" involved in MMA, but that is true of any sport. Look at basketball, football, and even baseball; there are dummies who make the rest of the players look bad. But, for every bad seed in MMA, there is one good guy trying to improve the image of the sport, to raise it up from the lows that those people lower it to.

Randy Couture is an MMA fighter who exemplifies all the good qualities you seem to be saying only come from traditional martial arts.

[American HKD]

Greetings

Shawn C

Good stuff, well said

[Kwajman]

I've always felt that a martial sport trains you to defeat your opponents. Martial arts teach me to define those shortcomings I have within my self and then to overcome them to make myself a better person.

[American HKD]

I've always felt that a martial sport trains you to defeat your opponents. Martial arts teach me to define those shortcomings I have within my self and then to overcome them to make myself a better person.

Greetings,

I think "Martial Arts" has everything, Physical, Mental, Spritual.

Combat sports teach fighting techniques, but mentaly is like any other sport, football, baseball, boxing, wrestling etc. Some may have an Oriental flavor but the teachings are much different from my expirience.

[doshim]

Shawn C,

You’re absolutely right. Thank you. In every sport or art there are people who define it and show the best that it can be. On the other hand there are probably a greater percentage of people making their art or sport look equally bad. Randy Couture is an excellent example of someone who is taking the high road. Physically, he is an excellent Greco-Roman wrestler, boxer, etc…Mentally, he is level-headed, well-spoken, and generally carries himself with dignity and behaves like a gentleman. A shining example.

When I say that there are those out there training only to be killing machines. I don’t literally mean “kill”. I am referring to those that solely train in hopes of going out there on the street and pulverizing someone. In my opinion the general public is not as discerning as you, Shawn. There are a great majority of people out there that think that that’s what martial arts are about. They join a school solely and specifically to learn the physical aspect so that if someone jumps them in a bar (and this is what they’re hoping for ) they can beat them to a pulp.

Again, this is only one man’s opinion. I only derive it by interviewing everyone that comes through the doors of the dojang. My first question is “What do you want to get out of martial arts?” A lot of "tough guys” come in and want the fastest and most direct route to what I mentioned above. It is my obligation to enlighten them as to the way a martial artist should train. It sounds like you, too, have taken to task enlightening people to your viewpoint and I think that’s admirable.

Here’s to fighting the good fight.

[Midnight Mist]

"When I say that there are those out there training only to be killing machines. I don’t literally mean 'kill'. I am referring to those that solely train in hopes of going out there on the street and pulverizing someone."

Okay, thanks for clearing that up.


I don't think anyone welcomes those types. The law will be dealing with them soon enough if they want to look for streetfights.

If you talk to any number of MMA'ists, I'm sure most of them would hold the opinion that fighting is to be kept in the ring or cage. Getting into criminal activity on the street isn't what the sport is about.

[NaughtyKnight]

No real man wants to fight on the street, we dont have to prove ourselves and I'm sure that we all have enough money to not have to mug people on the street with out art.

Everyone I know that picks fights on the street for fun, have all got criminal records, one of them is facing their 3rd strike meaning if they get caught causing fights, they will be in jail for a long time.

[Spikedude]

Though wait.... if you think of BJJ as a sport...why would they teach our military BJJ?
I do admit you have some good reason for many to think some arts are for pure sport. But to try to explain to many that they are not Martial artists after long periods of training, hardwork, and meditation. Well I guess it doesnt matter because they really dont know what martial arts is about right! Ah well good to know because I mean hey i only train all week and teach for sport. putting the sarcasm aside, stop blinding yourself by your arts. There is no such thing as a complete style and there is no such thing as a better style.

[NaughtyKnight]

I think that all martial arts are sports now. They used to be martial arts until we stoped fighting hand to hand in wars and developed duns that can kill people 100s of miles away.

[American HKD]

Though wait.... if you think of BJJ as a sport...why would they teach our military BJJ?
I do admit you have some good reason for many to think some arts are for pure sport. But to try to explain to many that they are not Martial artists after long periods of training, hardwork, and meditation. Well I guess it doesnt matter because they really dont know what martial arts is about right! Ah well good to know because I mean hey i only train all week and teach for sport. putting the sarcasm aside, stop blinding yourself by your arts. There is no such thing as a complete style and there is no such thing as a better style.


Grettings,

It's taught more as a sport than a traditional MA, of course root of the system is in MA.

Good tech is still worth learning Art or sport doesn't matter.

The difference in Art/sport is partly philosophical and partly in tech., also most older tradtions were geared to real battlefields with weapons and multiple attack senarios, sports are for the ring one on one controled and rules.

You can't pull out a knife, club, sword, bolo, chain, chair, broom stick, iron pot, in any sport or poke someones eye out, bite them, crush thier balls, kick thier knee out, and so on, so it's a sport.

When anything goes anytime or any place that's different and there's no comparison to a sport and nothing to agrue about.

[hatsie]

"duns that kill 100's of miles away" is that like a dunny with the lid up,stop eating chicko rolls then, he he.

whether bjj is sport or other, i think it would be very effective in a self defence situation, as with the other 'sports'. my brother was a boxer, i seen him clean up a few people that needed it(myself included) i think ego is a terrible thing, a lot of trad. m.a. are as fat as butter and could hardly run there own length. you would not see many samuria go into battle in that condition would you. the sports people are normally fitter simply by the training they do, when a lot of traditional people tend to let thier personal fitness go.

i do however have grave concerns about being locked up on the ground with some dude, i realise the locks /arm bars will break, but it is still a very dangerous place to be imho. other than that i would love to train in bjj.

have i missed the point here? i'm not haveing a pop at sports or anything.

[American HKD]

Greetings,

The fact is today more & more MA are taught for thier sport aspect and I think it may confuse people to what "real combat" is so they think thier ring skills work for anything.

I'm not knocking BJJ, TKD, Judo, Muay Thai, there all great sports with many worthwhile techniques, great for fitness etc.

But it's not traditional MA and since most of us don't fight for our lives on a regular basis we don't see the forest from the trees.

True many MA are out of shape to but that's another topic.

A real defense situation may only last 30 to 60 seconds, so how good a shape do you need to be to take care of business?

[NaughtyKnight]

You need to be in very good shape. Fighting is no piece of cake, and you need to be able to deflect blows thrown from a very strong person. Your cardio must be up to par, and remember that highly stressful strains are very hard on your body.

[hatsie]

my teacher was talking about this, he said in combat everything slows down and you are actually fighting in nano seconds, so 30 seconds is a long time. your heart rate will be going through the roof, i think we should all make an effort with our personal fitness. even though no time is wasted in class for p.t. to maximise our budo time, this doesn't mean we can neglect it totally.

jogging, surfing, working a bag or something, sorry for the thread drift.

[NaughtyKnight]

Who wouldnt want to be fit and look great? To have the body of an ancient spartan and the strength to match. I know I do, and I work bloody hard and one day I will get there.

Whether your going to be getting into many fights or not, you should take pride in your health and appearnace.

[American HKD]

Who wouldnt want to be fit and look great? To have the body of an ancient spartan and the strength to match. I know I do, and I work bloody hard and one day I will get there.

Whether your going to be getting into many fights or not, you should take pride in your health and appearnace.


Greetings

All MA should try to stay fit esspecially teachers, I can tell you as you get into middle age your body changes and there's nothing you can do about it.

Meaning even if you train you can't loose weight, endurance is harded to maintain, flexability is lost, etc, etc.

Do your best when your younger.

[doshim]

It seems to me that this discussion is only touching on the physical difference between Art and Sport. What I’m hearing, as referenced from the above posts, is that Martial Arts as “Sports” exist only in the ring and have rules, etc…Whereas Martial Arts as “Arts” are about self-defense where anything goes. What I have suggested in my earlier posts, and what I am reiterating here, is that ”Sports” do not have a code of ethics involved. Sure, there’s “Sportsman-like conduct”, etc…But, there is no underlying theme of carrying all of the good parts about training in that sport and translating them in your everyday life. Physical training in Martial Arts is only one aspect. A martial artist should be of high moral fiber. No sport I have ever been involved in focuses on this aspect. A person will grow immensely from a sport, whether it be team or individually. I learned a lot about winning and losing from sports. I learned a lot about perseverance, focus, and discipline from sports. But, it was only by living my life as a Martial Artist did I understand a true depth of character in myself and my martial pursuit.

Most people in Martial Arts are not training for war. They are training for self-development. They are training to better themselves. They are (or should be) seeking “Do”- The Way or The Way to Enlightenment. The martial aspect in many arts has evolved. Jiu-jitsu became Ju-Do, Kenjutsu became Ken-Do, Aiki Jiu Jitsu became Aiki-Do and Hapki-Do.

The quest is very personal and everyone will have his or her own pursuit of The Way.

[Hapkidoin P]

Good stuff,Jon,

I'll go a little further and say that modern sport ma's seek to gratify the ego through competition,while introspection and seeking to control the ego are what sets traditional and modern arts apart.

Most people,especially younger people,don't like that sense of "check your ego at the door" found in traditional schools,and for that reason seek out modern approaches to give them that individual satisfaction. Whatever flops your mop,I say. That doesn't mean one way is better. It's just a matter of approach.

[American HKD]

It seems to me that this discussion is only touching on the physical difference between Art and Sport. What I’m hearing, as referenced from the above posts, is that Martial Arts as “Sports” exist only in the ring and have rules, etc…Whereas Martial Arts as “Arts” are about self-defense where anything goes. What I have suggested in my earlier posts, and what I am reiterating here, is that ”Sports” do not have a code of ethics involved. Sure, there’s “Sportsman-like conduct”, etc…But, there is no underlying theme of carrying all of the good parts about training in that sport and translating them in your everyday life. Physical training in Martial Arts is only one aspect. A martial artist should be of high moral fiber. No sport I have ever been involved in focuses on this aspect. A person will grow immensely from a sport, whether it be team or individually. I learned a lot about winning and losing from sports. I learned a lot about perseverance, focus, and discipline from sports. But, it was only by living my life as a Martial Artist did I understand a true depth of character in myself and my martial pursuit.

Most people in Martial Arts are not training for war. They are training for self-development. They are training to better themselves. They are (or should be) seeking “Do”- The Way or The Way to Enlightenment. The martial aspect in many arts has evolved. Jiu-jitsu became Ju-Do, Kenjutsu became Ken-Do, Aiki Jiu Jitsu became Aiki-Do and Hapki-Do.

The quest is very personal and everyone will have his or her own pursuit of The Way.


Greetings,

Lets take HKD for example,

Original HKD has very little spritual side to it, it has the 3 principles but they were intend for explanations of the phyiscal & mental technique no real life philosophy.

Sin Moo HKD from founder Ji Han Jae turns HKD itself into a "Real" way or "Do"
of life. The spritual side of training is considered as important as the physical.

I think this is rare in todays MA to have teachers who serious teach morals and philioshy which make thier art a real life pursuit for a complete human being. Also how many american people are actually looking for such philosophy and morals of conduct on a personal level, outside of thier own religion?

Just to be clear Sin Moo is more than, be a good sport, loyaly, courge the normal stuff we hear in MA. Sin Moo regulates, eating, meditation, special breathing (besides dan jun), sex, thoughts, etc. indeed a complete life phiosophy.

Most people don't want to hear any of this stuff, but a MA looking for certain levels of physical, spritual, perfection may be very interested.

No sport has this level of true life philosophy.

[American HKD]

Good stuff,Jon,

I'll go a little further and say that modern sport ma's seek to gratify the ego through competition,while introspection and seeking to control the ego are what sets traditional and modern arts apart.

Most people,especially younger people,don't like that sense of "check your ego at the door" found in traditional schools,and for that reason seek out modern approaches to give them that individual satisfaction. Whatever flops your mop,I say. That doesn't mean one way is better. It's just a matter of approach.


Young men are full of testoterone, but Traditional Arts have a place for that too. Read about some of the old school teachers you warm up, practice basics, forms, spar, until your worn out.

The TMA can provide a real good workout for the young, dumb, and full of Coffee.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

are you serious? nothing checks the ego quite like having your ass handed to you by a guy twice your age and smaller than you. or like getting slammed and tapped out by guys who you wouldn't even give a second look in "t3h stweet"

I find a lot less ego in combat sports than I do in dojos etc because everyone knows exactly where they stand.

[Hapkidoin P]

Yes,I am quite serious. And where is it that you stand? In regards to what? How proficient you are on the mat?

I think a lot you said could also be said by TMAist. However,like I stated previously,it doesn't mean one is "better",because better is a very subjective word. The aspirations are different,so they really don't merit a comparison.

[Thomas]

Though wait.... if you think of BJJ as a sport...why would they teach our military BJJ?

BJJ was and is very attractive to soldiers for reasons you already know... it's a good system that works. However, recently some military units (for example Fort Drum's 10th Mountain Division) are beginning to look at other arts... mainly because working ground grappling in training is good but adding a heavy rucksack, body armour and weapons makes going to the ground pretty risky. Some units were learning the sport side of BJJ and findiong it difficult to use in combat situations.

Recently a Combat Hapkido seminar was offered to the soldiers at Fort Drum and it was well received... because it offers locks, strikes, and techniques that work from all ranges as well. GM P taught the curriculum in a more lethal manner than we normally do... different goals for soldiers than for citizens.

The Marine Corps system uses stripped down TKD, with no forms and the bulk of the material to be a mainly straight forward striking system. Again, the modification was necessary to meet the goals of the students.

[shotokanwarrior]

I don't appreciate the assertion that young people don't like casting off their egos. Personally I'd love to cast off my ego at a competition, but the local head honchos don't give a hoot about freefighting and won't organise anything but kata competitions so I'm denied that opportunity. I actually think that if you do not put your ego on the line, it's not a worthwhile activity. So please don't pass that judgement on young people.

Now back on topic. I actually think there's nothing wrong with spiritualism/philosophy - but I do think it is inappropriate when superimposed on martial arts training. There I am training my kicks and punches and suddenly my aims and goals are elbowed aside and I am force-fed the message 'Martial arts are not for fighting, they are about cultivating life energy/self-improvement/self-awareness' - and I think it's wrong. A basketball trainer doesn't tell a team 'Your aim is not to throw a ball through a hoop, your aim is to cultivate life energy.' It's the same with fighting. It is atrocious to just declare all the physical training and fighting as irrelevant and just a bump on the road to the real goal of having some quality lauded as 'enlightenment' or 'a level of maturity' etc. hich no-one can ever tell you exactly what the benefit of it is.

But hell, who's going to listen to me, a mindless young adrenaline junkie, too immature to see the importance of self-improvement.

[Thomas]

But hell, who's going to listen to me, a mindless young adrenaline junkie, too immature to see the importance of self-improvement.
What?







Sorry, couldn't resist :D
Now back on topic. I actually think there's nothing wrong with spiritualism/philosophy - but I do think it is inappropriate when superimposed on martial arts training. There I am training my kicks and punches and suddenly my aims and goals are elbowed aside and I am force-fed the message 'Martial arts are not for fighting, they are about cultivating life energy/self-improvement/self-awareness' - and I think it's wrong. A basketball trainer doesn't tell a team 'Your aim is not to throw a ball through a hoop, your aim is to cultivate life energy.' It's the same with fighting. It is atrocious to just declare all the physical training and fighting as irrelevant and just a bump on the road to the real goal of having some quality lauded as 'enlightenment' or 'a level of maturity' etc. hich no-one can ever tell you exactly what the benefit of it is.
Good point. Hopefully with good instructors you won't realize that it is an art with far reaching influences on your life until you get deeper and deeper into it and realize that this is indeed what is happening in a good school that teaches an art. If I, as an instructor, have to tell you that and "force-feed" it to you, I am not doing my job well enough.

[Hapkidoin P]

You had some good insights,but nowhere did I say that younger people are inferior in any way in their studies,whatever they may be....I said some don't like traditional schools for reasons of ego. I know this because I was one of them once... ;) You reply does make me wonder just what exactly it is that you feel defines a traditional school? Thoughts?

A basketball trainer doesn't tell a team 'Your aim is not to throw a ball through a hoop, your aim is to cultivate life energy.'
It's the same with fighting.

Now this is a pretty big leap. I would say MA is not about cultivating "life energy" or what not. I'll leave that to the realm of Reiki practitioners and New Age-ers...I'm talking about Traditional MA and the word "Do" is attached to many. Not so much life energy,as a way of life. Then again,to really understand that connotation would involve gaining a deeper understanding of Eastern religion and the area from which the "Do" came. A lot of people don't have the desire,or the time,to go that deep and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that choice.


It is atrocious to just declare all the physical training and fighting as irrelevant and just a bump on the road to the real goal of having some quality lauded as 'enlightenment' or 'a level of maturity'

Whoa...easy there big fella. Nobody said that. Far be it from me to pass judgement on what is relevant or not. A lot of people believe that MA is,at it's core,plain and simple fighting. It would be very hypocritical then to claim that I,as a MAist,look down on fighting,no? I just don't use that approach in my own study. :)

[shotokanwarrior]

What?

What, you mean you haven't made the judgement that being a 14 year old MA'ist I must be just a sensation seeker who wants something for nothing and doesn't give a rodent's behind about dedication or commitment?

I love you so much :love: :love: :love:

You reply does make me wonder just what exactly it is that you feel defines a traditional school? Thoughts?


One that adheres to an old or accepted principle or system, and I don't have a problem with that apart from when people insist on adhering to tradition for the sake of it rather than because there is a reason for it.

Now this is a pretty big leap. I would say MA is not about cultivating "life energy" or what not.

'Cultivating life energy' was just an example, seee above where I said 'self-improvement/self-awareness/whatever.' I wasn't accusing anyone here of stating that but I have heard crap like that talked about the martial arts, that fighting is just superficial and it is really about self improvement and development.

And it seriously bugs me.

By the way...maybe they only changed the names from 'jitsu' to 'do' because it was easier to say?

[tekkengod]

hell, let's take pity and throw in some tae kwon do fighters: we all actually are what we strive to be, combat athletes

awwww....they should thank you. :D

[doshim]

I wasn't accusing anyone here of stating that but I have heard crap like that talked about the martial arts, that fighting is just superficial and it is really about self improvement and development.

And it seriously bugs me.

Why would self-improvement and self-development bug you? What would be your alternative? The learning and development is not strictly limited to the training hall. Through dedicated martial arts training, other areas of your life cannot help but to be influenced. While you are in a dojang training to become a better fighter, better kicker, better puncher, etc…something happens. The quest to be “better” spills out to the rest of your life. You endeavor to be a better friend, a better son, a better spouse, a better worker, etc…What could possibly “seriously bug” you about that? I am not saying, “fighting is superficial”. Not at all. It’s martial arts! Learning how to defend yourself is paramount. All I’m saying is that learning how to fight is just the tip of the iceberg. To say a martial artist is a good fighter is limiting. Not only should a martial artist be a good fighter, know how to defend him/herself, etc…A martial artist must be a person that others strive to emulate. A beacon of grace, dignity, power, confidence, and humility.

[Scarlet Mist]

Sometimes I feel like Sysiphus.

Excellent! Keep rolling.

[tekkengod]

Why would self-improvement and self-development bug you?

learning how to fight is just the tip of the iceberg.

To say a martial artist is a good fighter is limiting. Not only should a martial artist be a good fighter, know how to defend him/herself, etc…A martial artist must be a person that others strive to emulate. A beacon of grace, dignity, power, confidence, and humility.

because if you need either of those 2 then quit the class and go to a damn therapy group.

unfortunately most good "martial artists" aren't good fighters.

that a load of crap, there are plenty of good MAs that don't educate or encourage that kind of thinking or behavior and there is nothing wrong with it.

an MAist, a good one, dosen't need to be anything but, intelligent, confident, and goal orianted. anything else is an unnessecary and may or may not be a side effect of the influance of the people you train with.

[Scarlet Mist]

an MAist, a good one, dosen't need to be anything but, intelligent, confident, and goal orianted. anything else is an unnessecary and may or may not be a side effect of the influance of the people you train with.

That doesn't make any sense by your logic.

[tekkengod]

That doesn't make any sense by your logic.

why do you say that?

the things i listed were traits and qualites that are essential to being a good fighter. nothing more.

[Hannibal]

I have got this massive feeling of deja vu you know......

[doshim]

that a load of crap, there are plenty of good MAs that don't educate or encourage that kind of thinking or behavior and there is nothing wrong with it.

What is your definition of a good martial artist?

[Kwajman]

A group of TKD MA grandmasters during a meeting back in the 80's said that martial artists don't use protective gear but sport martial artists do. I think I like that definition.

[American HKD]

What is your definition of a good martial artist?

Greetings

A Martial Artists has a special sprit, not the type that every sportmans has as many of you believe, but a deeper special type of human being, one with a real conviction about life and the MA.

The closest example I can give you is the type of sprit shown in the movie The Last Samuri.

At first (Tom Cruse) character was a warrior of sorts, but NOT a MAist. After he learned from the Samuri he developed a true martial sprit which was protrayed very well in the movie.

This sprit is alive and well in many Masters today and very relavant in todays society. Try to learn from those people.

It'a real shame that the combat sports game as over shadowed what a real MA is and all about.

[Hapkidoin P]

an old or accepted principle or system,

Principles are universal. They apply to every MA,sport or T,and every human being that has ever been or ever will be.

adhering to tradition for the sake of it rather than because there is a reason for it.

I practice Hapkido because Hapkido would "die" without me? I practice Hapkido because the principles I learn and apply in Hapkido are the principles that are most attractive to me,both as a person and as an MAist.

but I have heard crap like that talked about the martial arts, that fighting is just superficial and it is really about self improvement and development.

Other Arts may have different philosophical leanings. It doesn't make it "crap",it just makes it not for you. There is a difference.

By the way...maybe they only changed the names from 'jitsu' to 'do' because it was easier to say?

There is a whole universe out there on that subject alone. Lots and lots of reading for you to come to your own conclusion on why exactly that change in terminology occured. Good luck in your studies and happy training in whatever your chosen art is. :)

[Banpen Fugyo]

Sometimes I feel like Sysiphus.

Welcome to my world.

Unfortunatly, I never feel like an ubermint. Sorry.

[tekkengod]

What is your definition of a good martial artist?

a good, intelligent fighter with a firm grasp on reality and realistic goals.

[NaughtyKnight]

Good answer.

[Small Dog]

Welcome to my world.

Unfortunatly, I never feel like an ubermint. Sorry.
pwned

[ubermint]

It'a real shame that the combat sports game as over shadowed what a real MA is and all about.

No. It still doesn't work that way. You teach fighting techniques. We teach fighting techniques.

Practicing striking and grappling in a combat sport still doesn't make you a member of the mad gear gang, while practicing [insert TMA style here] does not make you space jesus, despite the implications of you and the rest of your psuedo-philosiphizing ilk.

You teach fighting. We teach fighting.

The only difference between us is that combat sport techniques have been proven to work against someone hitting back.

YOUR claims of effectiveness are...what? Honestly, what? What evidence do you have that your years of compliant standing wristlocks has done anything besides make you more geeky and insular? Just because it's old?

Oh, nice job with citing Tom Cruise as an example of martial spirit. Yay for being completely divorced from reality.

[tekkengod]

Good answer.


:D why thankyou.

[American HKD]

Replys to Ubermint's Post #66

No. It still doesn't work that way. You teach fighting techniques. We teach fighting techniques. Ok Ageed

Practicing striking and grappling in a combat sport still doesn't make you a member of the mad gear gang, while practicing [insert TMA style here] does not make you space jesus, despite the implications of you and the rest of your psuedo-philosiphizing ilk. Your missing the point I already tried to give an example, sorry if you don't see it.

You teach fighting. We teach fighting. I don't teach fighting or advocate it, I teach a comprehensive method of self-defense.

The only difference between us is that combat sport techniques have been proven to work against someone hitting back. That's an extremely ridiculus statement, please tell that to all the Samuri, Ninja, and other Martial Artists who trained that way for hundreds of years with great success on the battlefield. You would poop in your pants if you had to fight one of them, no rings matches with a referee, only anythings goes with weapons. A real fight.

YOUR claims of effectiveness are...what? Honestly, what? 1000 years of history What evidence do you have that your years of compliant standing wristlocks has done anything besides make you more geeky and insular? Just because it's old? Being compliant is only for beginners to learn from, other drills are introduced as students progress to get as close to realism without getting hurt, it's very effective training. BTW are you comming up with all these "brillant insights" into traditional MA all by yourself?

Oh, nice job with citing Tom Cruise as an example of martial spirit. Yay for being completely divorced from reality. Again you can't keep anything in context not (Tom Cruse he's an actor) the transformation of the character protrayed in the movie from a Soldier to a Martial Artist is the point, which seems to go over your head and out the window

[Covaliufan]

Yeah, and Daniel-san mastered fighting by painting Mr. Miyagi's fence. What? He was just an actor pretending to learn how to fight? You're missing the point, the point is the transformation the character Daniel-san made in the movie.

Are you a samurai? Have you ever seen a samurai fight? Has anyone alive ever seen a samurai fight? Did samurai tend to fight with swords and bows and arrows, or did they do standing wrist locks? What makes you think the training you're doing now has absolutely anything to do with the way samurai used to train?

Japanese jiu jitsu was in a pretty sorry state a century ago when Dr. Kano felt the need to bring back some realism with the combat sport judo. If the traditional arts then had strayed so far from their samurai tough guy roots, what makes you think that a hundred years later you've got the real samurai coolness?

[Thomas]

It's too bad that some posters want to degenerate the topic to the level of insults and bashing instead of trying to learn and share. Without getting into those discussions and without trying to appear to be moderating (that's not my job)... here's a bit you might find enlightening about "wrist locks" and the approach we take on them. Please read it and then see if it actually reminds you of any concepts you use in your art:

(Originally Posted by Thomas)
On Wrist Locks in self defence

Sometimes in discussions, arts like Hapkido and Aikido and such get ribbed for teaching wrist locks in self defence situations.

1. Not all self defence is going to be used against an all-out attacker punching at you. Some of it will be in response to pulls/pushes/grabs/etc., some at a slow speed. A lock or breakaway can be better (especially legally) than knocking the guy out.

2. The level of engagement varies as does the "opponent". As a "Hapkido guy", if I am jumped on a street in the dark, I will use strikes and such to hurt him/her and then run away. But if a student at my public school, a drunk friend, a family member or such attacks me... my goal is to restrain and control until help arrives or until I can defuse the situation. In some situations, you don't have the option of delivering huge amounts of destruction to a person.

3. When learning joint locks... the actual joint locking technique is important, but there are other aspects which are just as important (if not more):

a. Your entry: setting up a joint lock requires you to manipulate an (unwilling) opponent. You will need to distract him/her with a strike/slap/kick/quick movement and use your footwork to set up for the lock itself.

b. The lock and contingency plans: you only have a short time to put the lock on and set it for a takedown or for an escort (or for a choke out). If they slip out of, or if the you miss, you must train for the next step (e.g. wrist lock into a center lock into a hammerlock)... or for an extraction.

c. extraction: This is the most important part in my mind. After you lock them up or take them down, DO NOT HELP THEM UP OR JUST "LET GO". You must "extract", either by using pressure to distance them from you as you release them (and exit) or by using strikes or breaks to incapacitate them. (Verbalization is important here as well).

Wrist locks and joint locks work. But you have to use them within the context of their strengths and weaknesses and be prepared to respond to them.

(http://www.martialartsplanet.com/fo...ight=wrist+lock)

[Covaliufan]

All right, Thomas. Leaving wrist locks out of it, I'd still be interested in knowing: what is American HKD's connection to the samurai of yore? That seems to be the natural question, given that the crux of his argument is "we know what we do is good because the samurai would make you (his words) poop in your pants."

[Thomas]

All right, Thomas. Leaving wrist locks out of it, I'd still be interested in knowing: what is American HKD's connection to the samurai of yore? That seems to be the natural question, given that the crux of his argument is "we know what we do is good because the samurai would make you (his words) poop in your pants."
I don't know... I didn't write it, but I just felt that instead of everyone getting heated about things not related to a specific topic, it might be beter to look at concrete examples and discuss them. It would probably be a better way to spend our time.

On the wrist lock discussion, I do want to point out that we start static to leanr the moves and then add more resistance and more movement (pushing or pulling), and then add a punch coming in... all of this is to build up the technique so we can apply it under pressure in various situations. Then, the basic concept of the technqiue from the wrist lock can be practiced against other attacks and adapted to fit the situation. Learning them only against static, complacent, non-resisting partners isn't done past the basic learning the technique stage.

[Covaliufan]

I didn't really mean to start a wrist lock debate. I've found them feasible in a few controlling positions on the ground. Personally, if I have an opportunity standing up where one might go for a wrist lock, I'll be wrestling instead.

I do want to try to continue the main argument on this thread, the sport/vs martial art bit. I am strongly in the sports camp, not necessarily because I devalue martial arts, but because I believe athletics is a worthwhile pursuit with the potential to bring about character development. It's my opinion that martial arts can tap into this same potential, but don't have some separate, higher or purer value to them.

To me American HKD's arguments are an example of an opposite view stretched to ridiculous proportions. The crowning touch, as well as the most easily addressed claim, is that he can be confident in what he does without athletic testing because of how great the samurai may have been. That's as silly as my saying I know that bjj is fantastic because the U.S. Army trains in bjj; actually, silly as it is, my comment would be far superior given that soldiers currently do actually train in bjj, using the exact techniques and methods I use in practices, while we have no reason to think that samurai trained in whatever manner is used in American HKD's gym.

I feel that a lot of issues get confused for each other, to the detriment of everyone's understanding. The most obvious case is the term martial art: it has so many referents now that it becomes meaningless to say that one thing is a sport and another is a martial art, unless we're comparing karate to ping pong. So it's far better to avoid the term "martial art" and instead specifically mention those attributes gained by particular training practices.

Some of these might be: physical conditioning, unarmed fighting ability, armed fighting ability, "self defense," "moral character." I guess we could throw in "fun" as well, and other ideas from anyone are welcome. Oh, here I'm distinguishing self defense from fighting, considering self defense as awareness, avoidance, not walking through alleys at night, going clubbing with friends, verbal deescelation, etc.

So at this point I'm not really interested in debating whether, for instance, boxing is a martial art. It builds physical fitness, real unarmed fighting ability, "moral character" (it takes great determination to stay with such hard training, humility to accept one's initial losses, endurance to stay in matches, mental toughness, strategic mindset, etc.), and for some people is quite fun.

It's my suspicion that a lot of the schools or teachers who pride themselves on being "martial artists" rather than sportsmen and who go on about "real world self defense, not a ring with rules" do far worse than combat sports when it comes to gaining fighting ability, character, and possibly even "self defence."

[American HKD]

Greetings,

Sorry to degenerate into un-needed comments.

Our topic was Sport v.s. Martial Art.

I think the example of me mentioning Martial sprit as shown in the movie The Last Samuri, is a good example for people who never was exposed to Asian Martial Sprit.

Having learned for many years from Asian Masters and being a MA student and Master, I can tell you Asian culture lends itself to a different attitudes.
Western Culture does NOT lend itself easily to asian philosphical and there are cultural differences.

Mr Ubermint comments clearly shows a good example of east and west cultures clashing in ideas. I'm not saying he's wrong for his opinions, but mis-informed and hostile to asian points of veiw and traditions.

Lacking sensitivity to these issues is no crime but unfortunate.

[Thomas]

I do want to try to continue the main argument on this thread, the sport/vs martial art bit. I am strongly in the sports camp, not necessarily because I devalue martial arts, but because I believe athletics is a worthwhile pursuit with the potential to bring about character development. It's my opinion that martial arts can tap into this same potential, but don't have some separate, higher or purer value to them.

Nice post, Covaliufan... I can see where you are coming from...

I can see where you are coming from on this. In our TKD school, we ask that all students do at least 1 tournament before black belt whether they are training with us for sport, fitness, self defence or whatever. We don't do it for the actual fighting aspect (and a win or loss doesn't really matter to us)... we do it to see how students react to the pressure and stress of sparring with someone who wants to hurt you and beat you and win (which is a bit different from in-class sparring). Tournament preparation is such a small part of what we do, but the benefits of competition can be good. It makes them stronger.

Hapkido is a little different and normally doesn't compete. Many instructors have a different opinion of this. Some don't spar and they train those skills through other techniques. In our own Hapkido classes, we do open sparring with "everything legal - with control" and we learn a lot... it helps us combine our striking with our standup locks to transition to the ground and to finsih there if need be. My students also do a lot of defences against grabs and attempted takedowns with opponents who are trying their best to put them in a submission if they don't escape.

There was a big Hapkido tournament and it's available on DVD... here's my review of it (very informative DVD): http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12631&highlight=tournament

To me American HKD's arguments are an example of an opposite view stretched to ridiculous proportions. The crowning touch, as well as the most easily addressed claim, is that he can be confident in what he does without athletic testing because of how great the samurai may have been. That's as silly as my saying I know that bjj is fantastic because the U.S. Army trains in bjj; actually, silly as it is, my comment would be far superior given that soldiers currently do actually train in bjj, using the exact techniques and methods I use in practices, while we have no reason to think that samurai trained in whatever manner is used in American HKD's gym.
I can't really say anything here as I am not (nor want to be) part of this argument.

I feel that a lot of issues get confused for each other, to the detriment of everyone's understanding. The most obvious case is the term martial art: it has so many referents now that it becomes meaningless to say that one thing is a sport and another is a martial art, unless we're comparing karate to ping pong. So it's far better to avoid the term "martial art" and instead specifically mention those attributes gained by particular training practices.

Some of these might be: physical conditioning, unarmed fighting ability, armed fighting ability, "self defense," "moral character." I guess we could throw in "fun" as well, and other ideas from anyone are welcome. Oh, here I'm distinguishing self defense from fighting, considering self defense as awareness, avoidance, not walking through alleys at night, going clubbing with friends, verbal deescelation, etc.
I think this is "spot-on" and where so much confusion gets brought in. The skills and atributes you mention may be found in all "martial arts" schools of whatever style, but even within a style may be found in different percentages. A simple example is comparing a Taekwondo school with a sport focus with a TKD school with a self defence focus... many people expect "all" TKD schools to be the same, but in reality, they aren't. Furthermore, adding in the idea that some people train for "fun" or "fitness" changes it too.

So at this point I'm not really interested in debating whether, for instance, boxing is a martial art. It builds physical fitness, real unarmed fighting ability, "moral character" (it takes great determination to stay with such hard training, humility to accept one's initial losses, endurance to stay in matches, mental toughness, strategic mindset, etc.), and for some people is quite fun.
Neither am I... I agree with you.

It's my suspicion that a lot of the schools or teachers who pride themselves on being "martial artists" rather than sportsmen and who go on about "real world self defense, not a ring with rules" do far worse than combat sports when it comes to gaining fighting ability, character, and possibly even "self defence."
I know what you mean. In my own philosophy and opinion, a martial artist (especially an instructor) needs to stay "honest". There's nothing wrong with being devoted to a single style and embracing the traditions and all aspects of it. But at some point I know that I have to step outside of my normal school and normal partners and try out other styles and work with other people... to keep myself current and active against other styles and systems. When you find something that is weak, you either look within your system (if possible) or look outside and find a way to fix it. It doesn't dilute what I do... it makes it better.

[American HKD]

I didn't really mean to start a wrist lock debate. I've found them feasible in a few controlling positions on the ground. Personally, if I have an opportunity standing up where one might go for a wrist lock, I'll be wrestling instead.

I do want to try to continue the main argument on this thread, the sport/vs martial art bit. I am strongly in the sports camp, not necessarily because I devalue martial arts, but because I believe athletics is a worthwhile pursuit with the potential to bring about character development. It's my opinion that martial arts can tap into this same potential, but don't have some separate, higher or purer value to them.

To me American HKD's arguments are an example of an opposite view stretched to ridiculous proportions. The crowning touch, as well as the most easily addressed claim, is that he can be confident in what he does without athletic testing because of how great the samurai may have been. That's as silly as my saying I know that bjj is fantastic because the U.S. Army trains in bjj; actually, silly as it is, my comment would be far superior given that soldiers currently do actually train in bjj, using the exact techniques and methods I use in practices, while we have no reason to think that samurai trained in whatever manner is used in American HKD's gym.

I feel that a lot of issues get confused for each other, to the detriment of everyone's understanding. The most obvious case is the term martial art: it has so many referents now that it becomes meaningless to say that one thing is a sport and another is a martial art, unless we're comparing karate to ping pong. So it's far better to avoid the term "martial art" and instead specifically mention those attributes gained by particular training practices.

Some of these might be: physical conditioning, unarmed fighting ability, armed fighting ability, "self defense," "moral character." I guess we could throw in "fun" as well, and other ideas from anyone are welcome. Oh, here I'm distinguishing self defense from fighting, considering self defense as awareness, avoidance, not walking through alleys at night, going clubbing with friends, verbal deescelation, etc.

So at this point I'm not really interested in debating whether, for instance, boxing is a martial art. It builds physical fitness, real unarmed fighting ability, "moral character" (it takes great determination to stay with such hard training, humility to accept one's initial losses, endurance to stay in matches, mental toughness, strategic mindset, etc.), and for some people is quite fun.

It's my suspicion that a lot of the schools or teachers who pride themselves on being "martial artists" rather than sportsmen and who go on about "real world self defense, not a ring with rules" do far worse than combat sports when it comes to gaining fighting ability, character, and possibly even "self defence."


Greetings,

My fighting a Samuri comments was just for the purpose of trying to make one think before one talks.

But I believe it would be a very scary and humbling expirence & no comparison "ring match" to be face to face with one trying to really kill you any way possible with any weapon at his disposal, sword, spear, knife, or emtpy hand.

And on being a Martial Artist v.s. a sprotsman there is a difference you would have to study Asian martial curlture for a while to understand.

We have many of these type of Master still available today but, its another path one must spend time trainning with such a master getting the flavor for thier approach to MA and life and it's not for everyone and requires an open minded approach being westerns.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

you do realise that not every martial art comes asia right?

[American HKD]

you do realise that not every martial art comes asia right?


Japanese, Korean, and Chinese cultures are what I'm speaking about.

[Covaliufan]

Greetings,

My fighting a Samuri comments was just for the purpose of trying to make one think before one talks.

False. You were asked directly: how do you know if what you train works at all? You answered: because of the samurais and ninjas who've trained this way for hundreds of years. Let me ask you again: what does your training have to do with samurai warriors? What evidence do you have that you're training in any way resembling what they did?

But I believe it would be a very scary and humbling expirence & no comparison "ring match" to be face to face with one trying to really kill you any way possible with any weapon at his disposal, sword, spear, knife, or emtpy hand.
I agree that it would be scary to have a trained, experienced soldier attack me with a sword. But that doesn't mean that anyone's scared of you, or should be.

And on being a Martial Artist v.s. a sprotsman there is a difference you would have to study Asian martial curlture for a while to understand.

We have many of these type of Master still available today but, its another path one must spend time trainning with such a master getting the flavor for thier approach to MA and life and it's not for everyone and requires an open minded approach being westerns.
I think that's absolute nonsense, racist (or at least stupidly prejudiced) nonsense. One of my bjj coaches is chinese, the other coach is half-korean: where do they fit in according to your scheme? Are they foolish westerners too?

[Ikken Hisatsu]

Japanese, Korean, and Chinese cultures are what I'm speaking about.

you do realise not every martial art comes from japan korea or china right?

what about people who study western arts like savate or boxing? or filipino arts, kali etc. Pankration? wrestling?

[shotokanwarrior]

It doesn't make it "crap",it just makes it not for you. There is a difference.


Fine, I'll call it something less emotional. How about some of these...Incongruous? Illogical?

a good, intelligent fighter with a firm grasp on reality and realistic goals.


Good definition. I agree with that.

Japanese jiu jitsu was in a pretty sorry state a century ago when Dr. Kano felt the need to bring back some realism with the combat sport judo. If the traditional arts then had strayed so far from their samurai tough guy roots, what makes you think that a hundred years later you've got the real samurai coolness?


Good point, nice one.

[American HKD]

you do realise not every martial art comes from japan korea or china right?

what about people who study western arts like savate or boxing? or filipino arts, kali etc. Pankration? wrestling?

ALL YOU GUYS ARE DOING IS TAKING THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT JUST TO SAY I'M WRONG IN ANY WAY YOU ALL CAN.

YOUR ALL VERY INSECURE PEOPLE

BTW I STUDIED KALI AND PANATUKAN FOR OVER TWO YEARS AND KNOW IT'S ROOTS

[Hapkidoin P]

*Tangent*

Supposedly,Jujutsu had fallen out of favor with the Samurai at the end of the Tokugawa Shogunate and instead the upper classes studied...wait for it..Aiki Jujutsu. Jujutsu was definitely in sorry state because of the students that were accepted,most being low class or having no class at all. :D E.J Harrison ..."The Fighting Spirit of Japan."

That's about all I have for you without falling into the my teacher can beat up your teacher in a uber-cage-match-to-the-death thingie.

*End of tangent*

[American HKD]

False. You were asked directly: how do you know if what you train works at all? You answered: because of the samurais and ninjas who've trained this way for hundreds of years. Let me ask you again: what does your training have to do with samurai warriors? What evidence do you have that you're training in any way resembling what they did?


I agree that it would be scary to have a trained, experienced soldier attack me with a sword. But that doesn't mean that anyone's scared of you, or should be.


I think that's absolute nonsense, racist (or at least stupidly prejudiced) nonsense. One of my bjj coaches is chinese, the other coach is half-korean: where do they fit in according to your scheme? Are they foolish westerners too?

I NEVER SAID ALL ASIANS FEEL THE SAME WAY, OR ANYONE SHOULD BE SCARED OF ME.

PROOF IS 100S OF YEARS OF PROVEN TRADITIONS, COMPARED TO 50 YEARS OF BJJ OR SIMILAR NEW WAVE MARTIAL RING SPORTS.

STOP TRYING TO DISPROVE EVERYTHING I SAY BECAUSE IT DOES'NT FOLLOW YOUR THOUGHTS, IT SHOWS YOUR IGNORANCE GROW UP

[doshim]

a good, intelligent fighter with a firm grasp on reality and realistic goals.


O.k., tekkengod,

Now what is your definition of a "fighter"?

[Covaliufan]

Okay. I'm not going to argue anything for a minute. I'm going to ask you one question, which I've asked before, but you declined to answer.

What is the connection between what you train in right now and the training of actual samurai or other successful warriors?

Or, to rephrase: what makes you think the way you're training right now is anything like the way the ancient warriors you think so highly of trained?

[Ikken Hisatsu]

ALL YOU GUYS ARE DOING IS TAKING THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT JUST TO SAY I'M WRONG IN ANY WAY YOU ALL CAN.

YOUR ALL VERY INSECURE PEOPLE

BTW I STUDIED KALI AND PANATUKAN FOR OVER TWO YEARS AND KNOW IT'S ROOTS

you claimed you had to understand asian martial philosophy to understand the difference between MA and sport MA. Don't get upset just because you said something stupid.

[Hannibal]

Greetings,

My fighting a Samuri comments was just for the purpose of trying to make one think before one talks.

But I believe it would be a very scary and humbling expirence & no comparison "ring match" to be face to face with one trying to really kill you any way possible with any weapon at his disposal, sword, spear, knife, or emtpy hand.

And on being a Martial Artist v.s. a sprotsman there is a difference you would have to study Asian martial curlture for a while to understand.

We have many of these type of Master still available today but, its another path one must spend time trainning with such a master getting the flavor for thier approach to MA and life and it's not for everyone and requires an open minded approach being westerns.

Stu,

I have faced people trying "to do me harm" in a context not bound by rules. Similarly I have fought in a "controlled" ring environment.

I am sorry to break this to you, but the moves are basically the same.

I would pick most cage fighters/MMAstylists/Ultimate etc against almost anyone "on the cobbles". To say that it is different from a "martial art" is somewhat ignorant. Do you seriously believe that a ring fighter will wait for the referee or look to start from a neutral corner before it "goes off"? Ring fighting is just one aspect.

Similarly, how would your "ancient" ethos stand up against a bullet? Or a drive by? or a drive at you? Or how about the person who sucker punches you when you stop to help a damsel in distress?

Every art has its limitations and being ancient does not equate with being effective any more than being "new" does.

[American HKD]

you claimed you had to understand asian martial philosophy to understand the difference between MA and sport MA. Don't get upset just because you said something stupid.

I still beleive it all I said to be accurate, I also think many don't understand what I'm trying to get across or they get very defensive because I feel certain systems are combat sports and not MA.

I stand by my statements

[American HKD]

Stu,

I have faced people trying "to do me harm" in a context not bound by rules. Similarly I have fought in a "controlled" ring environment.

I am sorry to break this to you, but the moves are basically the same.

I would pick most cage fighters/MMAstylists/Ultimate etc against almost anyone "on the cobbles". To say that it is different from a "martial art" is somewhat ignorant. Do you seriously believe that a ring fighter will wait for the referee or look to start from a neutral corner before it "goes off"? Ring fighting is just one aspect.

Similarly, how would your "ancient" ethos stand up against a bullet? Or a drive by? or a drive at you? Or how about the person who sucker punches you when you stop to help a damsel in distress?

Every art has its limitations and being ancient does not equate with being effective any more than being "new" does.

Dear Hanibal

One on one with no weapons I imagine both would be similar or the same, agreed.

My critria for sports v.s. MA is training in weapons, multiple attacks, well rounded training of all phase of combat, and philosophy.

Examples I gave earlier was BJJ are one on one ground specialists, Boxing hand in a rings, Muay Thai the same, wrestling the same.

I never said the systems I listed are poor fighters or they're no good, on the contrary each of the systems have very good techniques in thier specialty.

None of these systems if you will do weapons training, not well rounded in the use of all weapons, kicks, strikes, locks, throws, nerve attacks, etc.

No one here wants to acknowledge these important factors of what I call MA v.s. sports, they just agrue for nothing about real facts and major differences.

Drive bys, sucker punches, getting hit by a car, all are facts of life that are out of our control and in G-ds hands.

[ubermint]

Mr Ubermint comments clearly shows a good example of east and west cultures clashing in ideas. I'm not saying he's wrong for his opinions, but mis-informed and hostile to asian points of veiw and traditions.

Lacking sensitivity to these issues is no crime but unfortunate.

ASIANS THINK IN CIRCLES AND ROUNDNESSES WHILE WESTERNERS THINK IN STRAIGHT LINES HUBGLUBGURGLE

By whose authority are *you* an expert on "eastern" culture? Especially considering that eastern asia has many different cultures, all with different philosophies...

Oh, that's right, you're basing your view on a movie, and using that movie as a jumping off point for your outdated, 19th century, chop socky, orientalist, chicky-flied-lice stereotyping of "eastern" cultures.

[American HKD]

ASIANS THINK IN CIRCLES AND ROUNDNESSES WHILE WESTERNERS THINK IN STRAIGHT LINES HUBGLUBGURGLE

By whose authority are *you* an expert on "eastern" culture? Especially considering that eastern asia has many different cultures, all with different philosophies...

Oh, that's right, you're basing your view on a movie, and using that movie as a jumping off point for your outdated, 19th century, chop socky, orientalist, chicky-flied-lice stereotyping of "eastern" cultures.

On what basis are you an expert to say my statements are false?

You have not offered any intellegent counter points of fact on this thread, you just make pointless and uninformed noise with your keyboard.

I will no longer respond to you here.

[tekkengod]

O.k., tekkengod,

Now what is your definition of a "fighter"?

a "fighter" by my definition is a person who is trained in all 3 ranges of the fight {Gpple, Clinch, Strike} and is proficent in them, the "belt" they use to hold their pants up is irrelivant to me, how many pretty dancing forms they can do, don't care about that either. How efficent they are does, they may or may not compete full contact but are good enough to survive in all 3 areas.
They train in a realistic manner for self-defense and/or full-contact fighting{muay Thai, MMA, Boxing. ect} and have realistic goals. they attend class not to acheive enlightenment or become a 10th dan "hit the red dot" fighter. they train to be educated, capable and efficent.

[American HKD]

a "fighter" by my definition is a person who is trained in all 3 ranges of the fight {Gpple, Clinch, Strike} and is proficent in them, the "belt" they use to hold their pants up is irrelivant to me, how many pretty dancing forms they can do, don't care about that either. How efficent they are does, they may or may not compete full contact but are good enough to survive in all 3 areas.
They train in a realistic manner for self-defense and/or full-contact fighting{muay Thai, MMA, Boxing. ect} and have realistic goals. they attend class not to acheive enlightenment or become a 10th dan "hit the red dot" fighter. they train to be educated, capable and efficent.


How about weapons skills and defense, knife, gun, chain, shovel, stick, and thier various ranges, or talking your way out of a fight?

[doshim]

tekkengod,

The question was “What is your definition of a good martial artist?”

I have pieced together both of your responses to get as much detail as possible (see below)


a good, intelligent person who is trained in all 3 ranges of the fight {Gpple, Clinch, Strike} and is proficent in them, the "belt" they use to hold their pants up is irrelivant to me, how many pretty dancing forms they can do, don't care about that either. How efficent they are does, they may or may not compete full contact but are good enough to survive in all 3 areas. They train in a realistic manner for self-defense and/or full-contact fighting{muay Thai, MMA, Boxing. ect} and have realistic goals. they attend class not to acheive enlightenment or become a 10th dan "hit the red dot" fighter. they train to be educated, capable and efficient, with a firm grasp on reality and realistic goals.

If this is your ideal, then you and only you can strive to embody this. My definition of a good martial artist differs slightly. Is one viewpoint better than the other? No, just different. As long as we hold ourselves to our own standards, that’s all that should matter. As long as you strive to be the best at what matters to you most, then you are on the path to perfection.

To delve even deeper, one more question for you.

What is your ultimate goal as a martial artist?

[tekkengod]

well obviously defense against the above mentioned weapons would be optimal, as well as avoiding the conflict if need be. but that would make them an "amazing" fighter, and alittle more than i consider required to get the title of good fighter, and decent MAist.
also, i sense the sarcasm, i don't know why everyone has a problem with wanting to be complete and through, prepared and efficent. thats a GOOD thing and not too much to ask to be able to defend my own life and take others if need be.

[tekkengod]

tekkengod,

The question was “What is your definition of a good martial artist?”

I have pieced together both of your responses to get as much detail as possible (see below)


a good, intelligent person who is trained in all 3 ranges of the fight {Gpple, Clinch, Strike} and is proficent in them, the "belt" they use to hold their pants up is irrelivant to me, how many pretty dancing forms they can do, don't care about that either. How efficent they are does, they may or may not compete full contact but are good enough to survive in all 3 areas. They train in a realistic manner for self-defense and/or full-contact fighting{muay Thai, MMA, Boxing. ect} and have realistic goals. they attend class not to acheive enlightenment or become a 10th dan "hit the red dot" fighter. they train to be educated, capable and efficient, with a firm grasp on reality and realistic goals.

If this is your ideal, then you and only you can strive to embody this. My definition of a good martial artist differs slightly. Is one viewpoint better than the other? No, just different. As long as we hold ourselves to our own standards, that’s all that should matter. As long as you strive to be the best at what matters to you most, then you are on the path to perfection.

To delve even deeper, one more question for you.

What is your ultimate goal as a martial artist?

i don't see why anyone else can't embody this if the same or a similar viewpoint. I never said your view point was "bad" or that mine was "better"
i just think if you go to MA class for reasons other than becoming capable or staying in shape, thats a little strange to me. but thats my opinion.
people don't play soccer to practice all day and then get beaten by a little kid, then follow with an excuse of:

"oh, well we play wearing 4 inches of bubble wrap and we don't focus too much on staying in shape or learning to score a goal or defend the net, hell, we don't even handle the ball that often. we don't need too, thats not why i play soccer, i play soccer because it teaches me traits that i like in a person and i think there is much to be learned about life through the intricate patterns of the ball" you get the idea. that is just not my "thing" i suppose

my ultiamte goal as a martial artist is to be as effective as i possibly can at defending myself or my loved ones. reguardless of what circumstances may constrain me, i would do my best. Eventually i will compete in amature MMA tournaments and hopefully one day enter the UFC. seeing as my training options are limited to Shotokan and Muay Thai {which i will need} at the moment, i workout and push myself as hard as possible so that i will atleast have the aerobic/ anerobic and technical traits nessecary. as i said i am working on my stand-up right now, grappling is by far my strongest suit. but there is always room for improvement, but i don't have a place close enough to cotinue improving that aspect at the moment. i know the chances of me actually getting into the UFC are very slim, as of such i have lots to fall back on in terms of carrer, but i will keep trying until i'm either shot out of the sky or i get in.

[doshim]

i don't see why anyone else can't embody this if the same or a similar viewpoint. I never said your view point was "bad" or that mine was "better"

People can strive to embody their ideal. It can be similar, but never the same as the person next to them.

"i just think if you go to MA class for reasons other than becoming capable or staying in shape, thats a little strange to me. but thats my opinion."

Which you are entitled to...


"my ultiamte goal as a martial artist is to be as effective as i possibly can at defending myself or my loved ones. reguardless of what circumstances may constrain me, i would do my best. Eventually i will compete in amature MMA tournaments and hopefully one day enter the UFC."

If that is your goal and that is your path as a martial artist, then other's viewpoints should have no affect on you.

The obvious goals as a martial artist for me, learning how to defend myself, getting in shape, building confidence and character, etc.. all lead up to my ultimate goal: HARMONY

Thank you for the lively discourse, tekkengod.

[American HKD]

well obviously defense against the above mentioned weapons would be optimal, as well as avoiding the conflict if need be. but that would make them an "amazing" fighter, and alittle more than i consider required to get the title of good fighter, and decent MAist.
also, i sense the sarcasm, i don't know why everyone has a problem with wanting to be complete and through, prepared and efficent. thats a GOOD thing and not too much to ask to be able to defend my own life and take others if need be.

Greetings,

Interesting you picked up on people having a problem with wanting to be complete etc.

If a may assume we're both on the same page I see many posters here saying thier sport MA is better than Traditional MA mainly because thier trainning partner resists and they fight in a ring.

I tried to introduce a broader veiw that MA is multi-faceted and invloves much more than "rolling with resistance" and has many circumstances that come into play in a street fight or self defense.

Hapkido is a very complete MA with skills for all areas of self defense.
I will admit a good grappler can overcome a HKDist figthing in the ring with rules, but that's only a single facet of multi-faceted combat.

If you introduce a street variable such as a pocket knife or a car key, broken bottle, pipe, sticking or hitting a grappler in a vital point as thier rolling around or two attackers jump a grappler the game changes dramatically and the ring experience becomes a very small factor now.

I believe in being ready for all circumstances and to train for all of them to the best of your ability and that requires more training than just "rolling with resistance" or Thai boxing in ring fight.

My final thought for this thread is in trying to show the differences between sport and trad MA, not who's better but what's the pros and cons of each and what each can offer the other.

I apologise for some of my posts that may have been unprofessional, some posters seems to just want to put down different view points and I may have got caught up in their comments.

[tekkengod]

People can strive to embody their ideal. It can be similar, but never the same as the person next to them.

"i just think if you go to MA class for reasons other than becoming capable or staying in shape, thats a little strange to me. but thats my opinion."

Which you are entitled to...


"my ultiamte goal as a martial artist is to be as effective as i possibly can at defending myself or my loved ones. reguardless of what circumstances may constrain me, i would do my best. Eventually i will compete in amature MMA tournaments and hopefully one day enter the UFC."

If that is your goal and that is your path as a martial artist, then other's viewpoints should have no affect on you.

The obvious goals as a martial artist for me, learning how to defend myself, getting in shape, building confidence and character, etc.. all lead up to my ultimate goal: HARMONY

Thank you for the lively discourse, tekkengod.

Ditto :D

[tekkengod]

Interesting you picked up on people having a problem with wanting to be complete etc.

Hapkido is a very complete MA with skills for all areas of self defense.
I will admit a good grappler can overcome a HKDist figthing in the ring with rules, but that's only a single facet of multi-faceted combat.

If you introduce a street variable such as a pocket knife or a car key, broken bottle, pipe, sticking or hitting a grappler in a vital point as thier rolling around or two attackers jump a grappler the game changes dramatically and the ring experience becomes a very small factor now.

I believe in being ready for all circumstances and to train for all of them to the best of your ability and that requires more training than just "rolling with resistance" or Thai boxing in ring fight.

My final thought for this thread is in trying to show the over differences between sport and trad MA, not who's better but what's the pros and cons of each and what each can offer the other.

honestly, people give me alot of crap and tell me to chill when i talk about wanting to be whole. i'd feel naked if there was an area of fighting i didn't feel comfortable fighting in. surely that can't be so hard to understand.

i have never said anything bad about Hapkido, just about TKD, that is where my problem lies.
let me reiterate 2 things.

1. i would not roll if there was a weapon involved, plain and simple. you'd be a fool to do so.
2. same applies to multipe opponents.
3.as for striking, that was incorperated into my Grappling as it is part of groundfighting.
4.training for every possible contingency is virtually impossible, although training for as many as you can, including the more common and preventable ones with a sense of realism is never a bad idea.

[American HKD]

honestly, people give me alot of crap and tell me to chill when i talk about wanting to be whole. i'd feel naked if there was an area of fighting i didn't feel comfortable fighting in. surely that can't be so hard to understand.

i have never said anything bad about Hapkido, just about TKD, that is where my problem lies.
let me reiterate 2 things.

1. i would not roll if there was a weapon involved, plain and simple. you'd be a fool to do so.
2. same applies to multipe opponents.
3.as for striking, that was incorperated into my Grappling as it is part of groundfighting.
4.training for every possible contingency is virtually impossible, although training for as many as you can, including the more common and preventable ones with a sense of realism is never a bad idea.


Greetings

Agreed it's hard to train for everything but I try my best and HKD has a lot to offer in that dept.

I sort of meant if 1 guy goes for the take down and while they're going down or on the ground 1 guy pulls out a pocket knife and stabs the grappler he never sees the knife. Thats one approach I would use going back to my Kali days.

My Kali teachers taught me well alway have a blade or two at all times it's a hugh equalizer.

[ubermint]

On what basis are you an expert to say my statements are false?

You have not offered any intellegent counter points of fact on this thread, you just make pointless and uninformed noise with your keyboard.

I will no longer respond to you here.

No, i'm sorry. Debate doesn't work that way. YOU are the one making the positive statements that

1: You know more than me about what constitutes "asian culture".

2: "Eastern" culture (and claiming there is one "eastern" culture is simply untrue on all levels) and the "moral principals/guidance/"warrior spirit/whatever that is taught in your dojang are remotely similiar.

Therefore the burden of proof rests on YOU.

You tried to patronize me. It backfired. Now man up and defend yourself.

[tekkengod]

yeah, i know what you mean, i never leave the house with out a blade, i have a short sword, a dagger, 2 small knives and a pikal knife. i always have the pikal knife.

[ubermint]

I sort of meant if 1 guy goes for the take down and while they're going down or on the ground 1 guy pulls out a pocket knife and stabs the grappler he never sees the knife. Thats one approach I would use going back to my Kali days.

So...how does Hapkido differ in any way in this respect? Honestly, how are you any safer while standing in this situation?

Also, could you please try to be a bit more original? So far everything you've said has been torn to shreds back in the beggining of the cenazoic era.

My Kali teachers taught me well alway have a blade or two at all times it's a hugh equalizer.

You had to be TAUGHT that?

[American HKD]

So...how does Hapkido differ in any way in this respect? Honestly, how are you any safer while standing in this situation?

Also, could you please try to be a bit more original? So far everything you've said has been torn to shreds back in the beggining of the cenazoic era.



You had to be TAUGHT that?


I won't response to your continued ignorance your making a fool of yourself.

[tekkengod]

So...how does Hapkido differ in any way in this respect? Honestly, how are you any safer while standing in this situation?

Also, could you please try to be a bit more original? So far everything you've said has been torn to shreds back in the beggining of the cenazoic era.

You had to be TAUGHT that?

are you serious, man, that is by far the DUMBEST thing i have ever heard, and the funny thing is your SERIOUS aren't you. how would you be safer standing-up against a KNIFE ATTACK!?!?!!?! damnit, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHAHHAHAAHAHAHA!!!!!! oh man my sides hurt, lets think REAAALLL HARD about this one, hmmmm....how could one possibly benifit from being on his toes when attacked with a knife, gee....i don't know.....if you are going in for the takedown and get gutted with a knife in the process, no good. Grappling is very effective in 1 on 1 hand 2 hand. and i love it to death and defend it when i can, but i have NEVER EVER advised going for a takedown, or fighting on the ground when weapons are involved, i don't think ANYONE HAS, EVER!!!!

it is true plenty of people have brought up rather outdated arguments but i think everyone has done so on ocassion. i agree that carrying a knife should be instinctive, but if you think your safe clniching or going for a takedown during a knife fight, then i don't think you should carry a knife, try a Sniper rifle, that way you'll be a good long ways away and won't have to risk doing stupid crap like that. you've said some pretty intelligent things in your posts, where this came from i have no idea.

[ubermint]

Do I really have to do this? I was hoping we could go directly from the "MMA NOT EFFECTIVE VS [IMPROBABLE HAPPENING]" directly to the backpedaling and bland statements of "it's the fighter not the art".

Alright, we'll run through the program. Where were we? Oh yeah, "When someone pulls a knife, where would you rather be: Standing where he can slash away? Or on top of mount, the best position to control the hand? I'd go with the latter.

By the way, all this is really academic. If someone really wants to stab you, you will never see the knife coming. I don't care what kind of ultra-ninja you are. It will be in your back. Real attackers do not bring a knife out and twirl it in the air, toss it to the opposite hand, then do a projected lunge or zombie overhead chop. They wait until your back is turned, then put it in your spleen."

There. Ok, places people, you know your line. Ready...go.

[ubermint]

I won't response to your continued ignorance your making a fool of yourself.

I love how he comes on board, and yells in an Alborz-esque manner "You don't know ANYTHING about asian thought!" then just repeats it mindlessly when asked to back up his claims.

Time to back up your claims, before I (god, i've wanted to say this for so long) call the MODS on you!

[American HKD]

Greetings,

If anyone goes to my post #102, I make it fairly clear that you keep the knife concealed, hidden, so the attacker never sees it comming.

I would never expect anyone to try a direct take down on a person weilding a knife in plain veiw except maybe a crack head or the like.

My point was a knife or a small concealed weapon used in a surprise manor is an equallizer against a superior fighter from any school.

A less skilled man will have a great advantage is the street if used smartly, which to me means he was the better more intellegent fighter as he gained the superior advantage over the attack.

A good old school example of this is the Ninja because of many factors like being out numbered, up against a Samuri with better skills, having to go behind enemy lines, they often fought in a way which concealed thier true intent, surprise, stealth, disguises, whatever.

That type of attitude to me is the Art of War and winning at all cost, not the UFC FWIW.

For the "wiseguy" Mr. Ubermint, I thought of most of that all by myself. :rolleyes:

[American HKD]

I love how he comes on board, and yells in an Alborz-esque manner "You don't know ANYTHING about asian thought!" then just repeats it mindlessly when asked to back up his claims.

Time to back up your claims, before I (god, i've wanted to say this for so long) call the MODS on you!

I like how you come with nothing intellegent to say, No counter points just complaints and put downs.

How about cutting the cr*p and try to have a normal dialog about this thread???

[Hannibal]

Dear Hanibal

One on one with no weapons I imagine both would be similar or the same, agreed.

My critria for sports v.s. MA is training in weapons, multiple attacks, well rounded training of all phase of combat, and philosophy.

Examples I gave earlier was BJJ are one on one ground specialists, Boxing hand in a rings, Muay Thai the same, wrestling the same.

I never said the systems I listed are poor fighters or they're no good, on the contrary each of the systems have very good techniques in thier specialty.

None of these systems if you will do weapons training, not well rounded in the use of all weapons, kicks, strikes, locks, throws, nerve attacks, etc.

No one here wants to acknowledge these important factors of what I call MA v.s. sports, they just agrue for nothing about real facts and major differences.

Drive bys, sucker punches, getting hit by a car, all are facts of life that are out of our control and in G-ds hands.

I see where you are coming from, butyour parameters are still too narrow. Shotokan and Shukokai have virtually no weapons in them at all yet are considered martial arts. Same for Hsing-i and Pa Kua.

Muay thai, which you consider a sport, actually has weapons in it, they are just not widely taught (I have seen Tony Moore doing a sword demo for example). Most - in fact all - MA's within themselves are incomplete and need a certain amount of facilitation. No one warior sect EVER had an all inclusive system of combat. Even a style such as Ninjitsu is for the most part a composite under one "umberella" term (e.g taijutsu & Shuriken-jutsu etc).
Hapkido, your art of choice, is similarly incomplete. I would argue that it is more of a tradition than a cohesive approach to urban combat, but nonetheless a tradition that can be employed for combative purposese should the need arise. This concept also applies to so-called "sports".

For that reason I contend that your terminology is erroneus

[tekkengod]

Do I really have to do this? I was hoping we could go directly from the "MMA NOT EFFECTIVE VS [IMPROBABLE HAPPENING]" directly to the backpedaling and bland statements of "it's the fighter not the art".

Alright, we'll run through the program. Where were we? Oh yeah, "When someone pulls a knife, where would you rather be: Standing where he can slash away? Or on top of mount, the best position to control the hand? I'd go with the latter.

By the way, all this is really academic. If someone really wants to stab you, you will never see the knife coming. I don't care what kind of ultra-ninja you are. It will be in your back. Real attackers do not bring a knife out and twirl it in the air, toss it to the opposite hand, then do a projected lunge or zombie overhead chop. They wait until your back is turned, then put it in your spleen."

There. Ok, places people, you know your line. Ready...go.

you made it sound as if you would want to go for a takedown in a knife fight, i wiould most definately want to be standing, so you always have a better chance of surviving, doding and running are the first things that come to mind.

[Covaliufan]

American HKD: Quit dodging.

What is your connection to the samurai? Others may have forgotten, but I still remember that that was your proof that your training is worth anything.

[American HKD]

I see where you are coming from, butyour parameters are still too narrow. Shotokan and Shukokai have virtually no weapons in them at all yet are considered martial arts. Same for Hsing-i and Pa Kua.

Muay thai, which you consider a sport, actually has weapons in it, they are just not widely taught (I have seen Tony Moore doing a sword demo for example). Most - in fact all - MA's within themselves are incomplete and need a certain amount of facilitation. No one warior sect EVER had an all inclusive system of combat. Even a style such as Ninjitsu is for the most part a composite under one "umberella" term (e.g taijutsu & Shuriken-jutsu etc).
Hapkido, your art of choice, is similarly incomplete. I would argue that it is more of a tradition than a cohesive approach to urban combat, but nonetheless a tradition that can be employed for combative purposese should the need arise. This concept also applies to so-called "sports".

For that reason I contend that your terminology is erroneus

Dear Hanibal

Maybe you're right in that sense it's hard to make blanket statements because of the many exceptions.

Okinawan Karate in general was developed as a empty hands system, but most generally used 5 weapons (kobudo) and I would say it is a MA.

Shotokan as you said has no weapons to speak of but they train in a manor and mind set of Budo (by thier own classification), which to me is an important distinction between Sports and MA.

Filipino, Silat, Indonision (sp?), systems are definately real combat MA systems created for real combats and the techniques are designed for one or more attackers and anything in between.

I guess to narrow this down a little futher, sport systems are more like BJJ, Olympic TKD, Olympic Judo, Kick Boxing, Boxing, Wrestling, Muay Thai fights, UFC matches and similar.

I consider the introduction of rules, referees, limitations, and the like, sports regardless of how good, tough, strong, the players happen to be.

I agree in advance, that UFC type fights, Boxing, Kick boxing, Muay Thai are a more realistic form of combat than, Olympic TKD and Judo, or point Karate tournaments but I still in feel they're in the realm of sports.

[American HKD]

American HKD: Quit dodging.

What is your connection to the samurai? Others may have forgotten, but I still remember that that was your proof that your training is worth anything.

Greetings

I did NOT mean my statement to be proof that my training was good, you mis-understood my point. It was meant to mean that certain methods of training were proven to be good for 100s of years.

To expand a little it was an example of philosophy and attitude as well as how they trainned for hundreds of years in and effective manor that proved to give the Samuri very usable and real combat skills, that's all.

They trained in a semi compliant manor and still came away with high level skills. They did'nt break each other arms in practice, or cut each other limbs with thier swords.

Rolling with resistance is good for BJJ not all styles or all systems, I will admitt it has it's purpose but it's only one method out of many tried and true methods. Same goes for Muay Thai trainning it's good for Muay Thai not good for Hapkido or Shotokan etc.

Our veiw points are different and I have no patients to try to express my veiwpoints when you are challaging with a closed mind rather than having an open intellegent dialog as Hanible, Tekkegod, and I seem to be having!

[tekkengod]

What is your connection to the samurai? Others may have forgotten, but I still remember that that was your proof that your training is worth anything.

so your saying if hes not directly or maybe as closely linked to the Samurai as he may or may not have been, than his training is worthless?

not exactly a sound argument.

[American HKD]

so your saying if hes not directly or maybe as closely linked to the Samurai as he may or may not have been, than his training is worthless?

not exactly a sound argument.

Sorry Tekkengod!

I mis-read who you were talking to, but anyway.

The Samuri is a good example of one proven training method out of many good training methods, not the best or the worst just a proven legit way.

BJJ has another training method that works best for thier system as does each system train the way that's best for them.

[tekkengod]

Do I really have to do this? I was hoping we could go directly from the "MMA NOT EFFECTIVE VS [IMPROBABLE HAPPENING]"


i don't think anyones argued the effectiveness of MMA, i've gotten BS statements like "they're egotist" or "your a thug" yeah, sure, shut up and meet me on the mat, ok?

on one has argued the effectiveness of MMA, at least not in comparison to another art. you'd be a fool to try.

[Thomas]

yeah, sure, shut up and meet me on the mat, ok?

Those are very powerful words written though the safety of a computer.

I myself would indeed be happy to meet you on the mat and offer you some safe, fun, and above all good training on our own mats here in New York. If you want to "do a few rounds" beyond sampling our classes, I'd more than happy to accomodate you (as long as you are an adult, i.e. over 18 years old). I just ask that you at least observe a bit before you jump in... so you can get a good idea of what we do.

I cannot get the time off to come to Texas, but if you'd like to come and visit us, I will deliver you to and from the airport and put you up in my own apartment.

[American HKD]

Those are very powerful words written though the safety of a computer.

I myself would indeed be happy to meet you on the mat and offer you some safe, fun, and above all good training on our own mats here in New York. If you want to "do a few rounds" beyond sampling our classes, I'd more than happy to accomodate you (as long as you are an adult, i.e. over 18 years old). I just ask that you at least observe a bit before you jump in... so you can get a good idea of what we do.

I cannot get the time off to come to Texas, but if you'd like to come and visit us, I will deliver you to and from the airport and put you up in my own apartment.

Thomas

I think Tekkengod meant that figuratively, but you offer sounded good.

[Thomas]

Thomas

I think Tekkengod meant that figuratively, but you offer sounded good.
My offer is open for anybody and not meant as a threat. If someone really wants to come and see what we do... I will help them out as much as I can. If someone wants to come and do a "few rounds" with me, I will accomodate them. We love visitors and enjoy the sharing that goes on from both sides.


I think if more people actually went and visited other schools, they'd come away with a new appreciation of what other styles do... and maybe drop some of the inaccurate generalizations that many people have.

[cloudz]

I see where you are coming from, butyour parameters are still too narrow. Shotokan and Shukokai have virtually no weapons in them at all yet are considered martial arts. Same for Hsing-i and Pa Kua.



Sorry Hannibal, I can't speak for Shotokan or Shukokai, but Hsing-i and Pa kua do have weapons. In fact Hsing-i has loads of weapons - it was devised by an army general who wanted a fighting system for his soldiers and thus incorporates lots of weapons. Heard of deer horn knives - thats a speciality of Pa kua, they are also known to train with the biggest swords you're ever likely to see.

Regards
geo

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

C'mon Thomas and Stuart, you are speaking to some VERY young men here - look at the profiles...this strong willed bravado is expected from hard training "young guns" that frankly probably do not have the real world experience of either of you - so I would temper the responses accordingly - I know you remember when you were that age and basically no one could "tell" you anything - right?

A sport is any activity bound by a general rule that says "you can, and you cannot do certain things" - now - do some take these rules with a littel more of a liberal approach - sure - an art (martial - in this case) is studied for the sake of study - with the earnest hope that it will never have to be used - and frankly when and if it is, the result is often more critiqued by the artist than the attacker for the purposes of continued self improvement. But that doesn't mean there are not some hard, rough guys engaged in sport"like" activities.

Now, please no one take offense that I called some of you young, I did not say immature - but I will say for the record that when anyone makes a statement like "come meet me on the mat" it does border on the insecure and probably immature. Again, take no real offense, but an open ended challenge in a world wide forum when you have no idea really who you are speaking to can be dangerous - remember the embarrassment caused to William Cheung by Emin Boztepe when Cheung "challenged" the world and was caught out at a seminar in 1988 - not a good outcome for either.

These forums should be a place of intellectual challenge - not faceless bravado - challenge yourself - not others. A little story on you never know who you'll meet: My senior student, who has now been training with me for almost 17 years and I had just fininshed a long Saturday training session about 10 years ago and went to Pizza Hut for dinner (uhhhhhhh....pizza) - anyway, this place served beer, and a few guys at another table were getting a little trashed. My student and I were discussing Hapkido and were overheard (I can only assume) - because when my student went to the restroom, one of the characters from the other table followed him in there and said "I'll bet you twenty bucks I can kick your a##" - now if it were me, I would have laughed it off and walked away, but it wasn't me and I think the guy is still stuffed in the urinal - challenges of any sort are an unsavory and impolite thing - not to mention I can assume it can be a pain to clean urinal cake out of your hair... :)

[American HKD]

Hello all,

C'mon Thomas and Stuart, you are speaking to some VERY young men here - look at the profiles...this strong willed bravado is expected from hard training "young guns" that frankly probably do not have the real world experience of either of you - so I would temper the responses accordingly - I know you remember when you were that age and basically no one could "tell" you anything - right?

A sport is any activity bound by a general rule that says "you can, and you cannot do certain things" - now - do some take these rules with a littel more of a liberal approach - sure - an art (martial - in this case) is studied for the sake of study - with the earnest hope that it will never have to be used - and frankly when and if it is, the result is often more critiqued by the artist than the attacker for the purposes of continued self improvement. But that doesn't mean there are not some hard, rough guys engaged in sport"like" activities.

Now, please no one take offense that I called some of you young, I did not say immature - but I will say for the record that when anyone makes a statement like "come meet me on the mat" it does border on the insecure and probably immature. Again, take no real offense, but an open ended challenge in a world wide forum when you have no idea really who you are speaking to can be dangerous - remember the embarrassment caused to William Cheung by Emin Boztepe when Cheung "challenged" the world and was caught out at a seminar in 1988 - not a good outcome for either.

These forums should be a place of intellectual challenge - not faceless bravado - challenge yourself - not others. A little story on you never know who you'll meet: My senior student, who has now been training with me for almost 17 years and I had just fininshed a long Saturday training session about 10 years ago and went to Pizza Hut for dinner (uhhhhhhh....pizza) - anyway, this place served beer, and a few guys at another table were getting a little trashed. My student and I were discussing Hapkido and were overheard (I can only assume) - because when my student went to the restroom, one of the characters from the other table followed him in there and said "I'll bet you twenty bucks I can kick your a##" - now if it were me, I would have laughed it off and walked away, but it wasn't me and I think the guy is still stuffed in the urinal - challenges of any sort are an unsavory and impolite thing - not to mention I can assume it can be a pain to clean urinal cake out of your hair... :)

Kevin

It is frustrating talking to some of these young men here and yes maybe immature young men, it was like agrueing with my 16 year old daugther very difficult and you can never ever be right no matter what!

But I kept trying so hopefully something constructive comes out of it somewhere.

[iron_ox]

Hello Stuart,

My comments are born from a single comment made to me Monday night while teachng at the college club I run a few nights a week - when I overheard one of the students say: "Man, can you believe that were learning from a guy that has trained longer than we have been alive...?" Kinda put lots of stuff in perspective when dealing with that demographic for me...

[American HKD]

Hello Stuart,

My comments are born from a single comment made to me Monday night while teachng at the college club I run a few nights a week - when I overheard one of the students say: "Man, can you believe that were learning from a guy that has trained longer than we have been alive...?" Kinda put lots of stuff in perspective when dealing with that demographic for me...

At least your students have some sense.

I'm sure the characters here would not see it that way, you old washed up has been never was. :rolleyes:

[iron_ox]

At least your students have some sense.

I'm sure the characters here would not see it that way, you old washed up has been never was. :rolleyes:

Hey, with a little Grecian formula, I could look young again...bones might still creak a bit though...

[Scarlet Mist]

a "fighter" by my definition is a person who is trained in all 3 ranges of the fight {Gpple, Clinch, Strike} and is proficent in them, the "belt" they use to hold their pants up is irrelivant to me, how many pretty dancing forms they can do, don't care about that either. How efficent they are does, they may or may not compete full contact but are good enough to survive in all 3 areas.
They train in a realistic manner for self-defense and/or full-contact fighting{muay Thai, MMA, Boxing. ect} and have realistic goals. they attend class not to acheive enlightenment or become a 10th dan "hit the red dot" fighter. they train to be educated, capable and efficent.

I think your views are a) highly subjective b) very limited.

From your description of a fighter, a boxer is not a fighter, neither were gladiators (I actually don't know anything about gladiatiors, but I watched the movie :D ). What you are doing, is muttering something you heard someone else say without actually thinking about it, obviously. You are also of course bashing other people. And how is a person who goes to a gym "educated"?

In a previous post you said that a good fighter has to be nothing but "intellingent etc. etc. " which is of course not true. Because a good fighter might not need to be intelliget, or he might not even need to have goals, or he might need to be in great physical condition (which you omitted). So a guy is not intelliget but can knock people out easily and win full contact matches because of sheer power and condition is not a good fighter? Hmmm.

Also, there isn't much difference between a "hit the red dot 10th dan fighter" and a "capable and efficient fighter". Really, what's the difference. The 10th dan is good at hitting the red dot and the other guy is good at fighting in the ring. Both the ring and the red dot arena are under fixed conditions, and if you move a fighter from the situation for which he has trained he is likely to fail.

For example a guy who is lord of stand up, clinch and grappling is going to be murdered in a "red dot" tournamet, though he would murder a red dotter in the ring. He might even murder him on the streets. But both of them will die in a confrontation with someone with a lethal weapon. Take that *ohh I know stand up, clinch and grappling* to West Kingston and you will die, you will lie in a pool full of blood. The coroners will be struggling to get your half decomposed body out of the gully many days after you have been reported missing.

In conclusion, both set of skills are limited, one more limited than the other, but the difference is not all that great if you consider the BIGGER picture.

Don't be so judgemental, all is limited, open your mind etc. etc.

[tekkengod]

Those are very powerful words written though the safety of a computer.

I myself would indeed be happy to meet you on the mat and offer you some safe, fun, and above all good training on our own mats here in New York. If you want to "do a few rounds" beyond sampling our classes, I'd more than happy to accomodate you (as long as you are an adult, i.e. over 18 years old). I just ask that you at least observe a bit before you jump in... so you can get a good idea of what we do.

I cannot get the time off to come to Texas, but if you'd like to come and visit us, I will deliver you to and from the airport and put you up in my own apartment.

that is a very generous offer indeed, and i appreciate it. i've always wanted to go to New York, depending on weather or not i go to Evo this year, that was my original travel destination. dependng on my plans, i just might be able to take you up on that offer sometime over the summer.

[American HKD]

I think your views are a) highly subjective b) very limited.

From your description of a fighter, a boxer is not a fighter, neither were gladiators (I actually don't know anything about gladiatiors, but I watched the movie :D ). What you are doing, is muttering something you heard someone else say without actually thinking about it, obviously. You are also of course bashing other people. And how is a person who goes to a gym "educated"?

In a previous post you said that a good fighter has to be nothing but "intellingent etc. etc. " which is of course not true. Because a good fighter might not need to be intelliget, or he might not even need to have goals, or he might need to be in great physical condition (which you omitted). So a guy is not intelliget but can knock people out easily and win full contact matches because of sheer power and condition is not a good fighter? Hmmm.

Also, there isn't much difference between a "hit the red dot 10th dan fighter" and a "capable and efficient fighter". Really, what's the difference. The 10th dan is good at hitting the red dot and the other guy is good at fighting in the ring. Both the ring and the red dot arena are under fixed conditions, and if you move a fighter from the situation for which he has trained he is likely to fail.

For example a guy who is lord of stand up, clinch and grappling is going to be murdered in a "red dot" tournamet, though he would murder a red dotter in the ring. He might even murder him on the streets. But both of them will die in a confrontation with someone with a lethal weapon. Take that *ohh I know stand up, clinch and grappling* to West Kingston and you will die, you will lie in a pool full of blood. The coroners will be struggling to get your half decomposed body out of the gully many days after you have been reported missing.

In conclusion, both set of skills are limited, one more limited than the other, but the difference is not all that great if you consider the BIGGER picture.

Don't be so judgemental, all is limited, open your mind etc. etc.

All good points each have thier place and specialization.

[tekkengod]

I think your views are a) highly subjective b) very limited.

From your description of a fighter, a boxer is not a fighter, neither were gladiators (I actually don't know anything about gladiatiors, but I watched the movie :D ). What you are doing, is muttering something you heard someone else say without actually thinking about it, obviously. You are also of course bashing other people. And how is a person who goes to a gym "educated"?

In a previous post you said that a good fighter has to be nothing but "intellingent etc. etc. " which is of course not true. Because a good fighter might not need to be intelliget, or he might not even need to have goals, or he might need to be in great physical condition (which you omitted). So a guy is not intelliget but can knock people out easily and win full contact matches because of sheer power and condition is not a good fighter? Hmmm.

Also, there isn't much difference between a "hit the red dot 10th dan fighter" and a "capable and efficient fighter". Really, what's the difference. The 10th dan is good at hitting the red dot and the other guy is good at fighting in the ring. Both the ring and the red dot arena are under fixed conditions, and if you move a fighter from the situation for which he has trained he is likely to fail.

For example a guy who is lord of stand up, clinch and grappling is going to be murdered in a "red dot" tournamet, though he would murder a red dotter in the ring. He might even murder him on the streets. But both of them will die in a confrontation with someone with a lethal weapon. Take that *ohh I know stand up, clinch and grappling* to West Kingston and you will die, you will lie in a pool full of blood. The coroners will be struggling to get your half decomposed body out of the gully many days after you have been reported missing.

In conclusion, both set of skills are limited, one more limited than the other, but the difference is not all that great if you consider the BIGGER picture.

Don't be so judgemental, all is limited, open your mind etc. etc.

do you not see boxing LISTED as one in my post? boxers are fighters, and gladiators. oh hell yeah, there were trained in the ranges of weapons, i always respected Gladiators.

[ubermint]

I like how you come with nothing intellegent to say, No counter points just complaints and put downs.

How about cutting the cr*p and try to have a normal dialog about this thread???

I keep trying, but you just go off in a huff and refuse to debate. Maybe you could try again with this?

No, i'm sorry. Debate doesn't work that way. YOU are the one making the positive statements that

1: You know more than me about what constitutes "asian culture".

2: "Eastern" culture (and claiming there is one "eastern" culture is simply untrue on all levels) and the "moral principals/guidance/"warrior spirit/whatever that is taught in your dojang are remotely similiar.

Therefore the burden of proof rests on YOU.

You tried to patronize me. It backfired. Now man up and defend yourself.

[ubermint]

For example a guy who is lord of stand up, clinch and grappling is going to be murdered in a "red dot" tournamet, though he would murder a red dotter in the ring. He might even murder him on the streets. But both of them will die in a confrontation with someone with a lethal weapon. Take that *ohh I know stand up, clinch and grappling* to West Kingston and you will die, you will lie in a pool full of blood. The coroners will be struggling to get your half decomposed body out of the gully many days after you have been reported missing.


He may sound scary, but consider another example of SM's street dangerous, self-defense oriented thinking:

Is it possible to run along walls vertical walls, then jump from them as demonstrated in "Prince of Persia"? It could play a serious role in SD. Imagine, 4 guys run up on you, you start running along the wall towards them, then you leap from it and kick one in the face as you land. The other 3 then run in awe of you power and agility.

Yeah, just let that sink in a little.

[ubermint]

Rolling with resistance is good for BJJ not all styles or all systems, I will admitt it has it's purpose but it's only one method out of many tried and true methods. Same goes for Muay Thai trainning it's good for Muay Thai not good for Hapkido or Shotokan etc.


This actually goes right to the heart of the matter. If you want true effectiveness, aliveness (training with full resistance and athletic conditioning) is not an option. All sarcasm aside, this is a proven fact. In hundreds of examples, few rules, no rules, or even on (you guess it) TEH STR33T (and yes, we have video for all of these), those who don't train alive get...well...owned, as the kids say nowadays.

Again, i'd be happy to offer myself as a test subject. I'm in central texas. We can go as many rounds as you want, with as many or few rules as you want (all in a friendly spirit) and test any theories you may have. Hell, if you want to test your "knife defenses", bring a training blade or a marker and we'll see who gets the most marks on their bad selves.

I'm not saying i'll win.

But i'm willing to put what I say to the test.

Are you?

[Slindsay]

Alright, we'll run through the program. Where were we? Oh yeah, "When someone pulls a knife, where would you rather be: Standing where he can slash away? Or on top of mount, the best position to control the hand? I'd go with the latter.

By the way, all this is really academic.

I agree its academice but here three really really good reasons to stay on your feet in a knife fight:

1) They have friends (Old point but tried and tested)

2) (More importantly) When I watch two dudes ground fighting even when one guy is owning the other dude the victim of the sub usually(not always) has one hand free, I know I rarely tie up both hands when I grapple with someone. Knives cost about £3.00, is someone has one knife they are gonna have 3 or 4. The hand that used to helplessly pound at the arm that was choking the victim or thumped the leg in an attempt to stop an armabar may well now be holding one of those other knives...

3) Its easier to disengage and run away when you arent grappling


i don't think anyones argued the effectiveness of MMA, i've gotten BS statements like "they're egotist" or "your a thug" yeah, sure, shut up and meet me on the mat, ok?
For some reason that senetnce really doesnt do a good job of convincing me that MMA guys arent thugs...

[American HKD]

This actually goes right to the heart of the matter. If you want true effectiveness, aliveness (training with full resistance and athletic conditioning) is not an option. All sarcasm aside, this is a proven fact. In hundreds of examples, few rules, no rules, or even on (you guess it) TEH STR33T (and yes, we have video for all of these), those who don't train alive get...well...owned, as the kids say nowadays.

Again, i'd be happy to offer myself as a test subject. I'm in central texas. We can go as many rounds as you want, with as many or few rules as you want (all in a friendly spirit) and test any theories you may have. Hell, if you want to test your "knife defenses", bring a training blade or a marker and we'll see who gets the most marks on their bad selves.

I'm not saying i'll win.

But i'm willing to put what I say to the test.

Are you?

Greetings,

Thanks I don't need a test subject I have students and training partners who gladly accomidate me as needed.

I agree with you that hard training is required and never said anything contrary to the fact that conditioning and resistance training isn't good.

I did say you can't do that for every type of move that exists in the MA people will get seriuosly hurt or die, end of story!

I've been in HKD and Jujutsu for 25 years, I have 1/2 dozen permenant joint injuries, tendon problems, I had one compound fracture (very serious), one testicle injury that required surgery (serious), all from what you might call compliant training.

I call my methods as realistic as one can get with out causing permenant injuries or serious accidents.

I know what MA is and isn't even if we differ in our approaches.

[Scarlet Mist]

Tekkengod:

You are contradicting yourself. I did see you list boxing, but you said fighters are generally trained in Boxing, not that they are solely boxers. This implies that they have other training as well since fighters according to you are trainted in all 3 ranges. Boxers are OBVIOUSLY precluded from that group.

Stop trying to run around argument, gladiators were not necessarily trained in clinch and groundfighting. You either maintain your definition and exclude gladiators from the fighter class or change your definition. Which is it?



He may sound scary, but consider another example of SM's street dangerous, self-defense oriented thinking:



Yeah, just let that sink in a little.

Your inability to see humor does not translate to me being unrealistic. Speaking of challenges, etc. do you want to meet me in West Kingston? In a friendly spirit of course :D .

[Thomas]

that is a very generous offer indeed, and i appreciate it. i've always wanted to go to New York, depending on weather or not i go to Evo this year, that was my original travel destination. dependng on my plans, i just might be able to take you up on that offer sometime over the summer.
Good... I look forward to it. If you have time and feel up to it, we can do a tour of some good schools that you may find enlightening. Oh, and bring your passport... we'll hit some schools in Canada too.


As for the "couple of rounds"... we can start nice and easy and then work as hard as you'd like... my goal is to show you what we do, not to "beat you up". And I do have good control... I am usually the first person anybody at the school spars... because I break them in gently. It'll be fun.

[shotokanwarrior]

yeah, i know what you mean, i never leave the house with out a blade, i have a short sword, a dagger, 2 small knives and a pikal knife. i always have the pikal knife.


Sacred Excrement! Where do you live????

By the way, will some people PLEASE stop patronising young people? (And yes, I can quote a post if you want me to.)We are not just stubborn little brats who will twist an argument because they want to refute the other person just for the sake of it. I'm 14 years old and I have the sense that if someone I do not agree with makes a good point, I'm not going to dismiss it just because I'm stuck in my ways. Please stop being so negative about us. It's painfully demoralising when you strive to be a good/decent/mature person etc all that crap and all you get from people is unfounded negativity. Quite frankly the only reason I'm not 'losing it' and posting a load of noxious and indiscriminate invective is that it would give people something to criticise. Yes it is really that severe so please recognise that if I have said something stupid, I have said something stupid no matter what my age.

[American HKD]

Sacred Excrement! Where do you live????

By the way, will some people PLEASE stop patronising young people? (And yes, I can quote a post if you want me to.)We are not just stubborn little brats who will twist an argument because they want to refute the other person just for the sake of it. I'm 14 years old and I have the sense that if someone I do not agree with makes a good point, I'm not going to dismiss it just because I'm stuck in my ways. Please stop being so negative about us. It's painfully demoralising when you strive to be a good/decent/mature person etc all that crap and all you get from people is unfounded negativity. Quite frankly the only reason I'm not 'losing it' and posting a load of noxious and indiscriminate invective is that it would give people something to criticise. Yes it is really that severe so please recognise that if I have said something stupid, I have said something stupid no matter what my age.

Mr Shotokanwarrior,

Your right you may be a very mature young man no offense intended.

I have trained in MA almost 2x as long as you've been on this earth.

As you get older you'll realize nothing means more than expirience in life, we can be stuborn, hard to change like anyone else but expirience and age is the greatest teacher of all.

For the mere fact alone that someones older deserves to be given a higher level of respect and spoken to with courtesy even if we are wrong.

[doshim]

Mr Shotokanwarrior,

For the mere fact alone that someones older deserves to be given a higher level of respect and spoken to with courtesy even if we are wrong.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with that statement, Mr Rosenberg. In my opinion, respect has to be earned and should have nothing to do with how many years you've been on the planet.

I believe that everyone should be spoken to with courtesy, but respect need not be automatically given to those with more birthdays under their belt.

[American HKD]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with that statement, Mr Rosenberg. In my opinion, respect has to be earned and should have nothing to do with how many years you've been on the planet.

I believe that everyone should be spoken to with courtesy, but respect need not be automatically given to those with more birthdays under their belt.

Mr Davis,

I knew someone would dis-agree but I didn't except it would be you, that's Ok. Go ask GM Han his opinion.

I was raised to respect my elders period. I respect all equallity for the simple fact that they're human beings and g-d gave them life and felt them worthy with merit to many years.

You have to lose my respect not earn it!

Thats called humility and recognition of all people.

BTW, it's it's not hard for people to lose respect.

[doshim]

We’re off on a tangent here, but I’ll just roll with it.


Mr Davis,

I knew someone would dis-agree but I didn't except it would be you, that's Ok. Go ask GM Han his opinion.

I was raised to respect my elders period. I respect all equallity for the simple fact that they're human beings and g-d gave them life and felt them worthy with merit to obtain many years.

You have to lose my respect not earn it!

Thats called humility and recognition.

BTW it's pretty easy for people to lose respect.


When I approach someone who I would consider my elder for the first time, I cannot automatically give them my respect. What if that “elder” is a complete jerk? I can approach someone for the first time and automatically give them my courteous behavior, though.

[American HKD]

We’re off on a tangent here, but I’ll just roll with it.





When I approach someone who I would consider my elder for the first time, I cannot automatically give them my respect. What if that “elder” is a complete jerk? I can approach someone for the first time and automatically give them my courteous behavior, though.

Mr Davis,

That's my point they'll lose your respect real fast if they're a jerk. But you gave the respect any human has a right to just for being born.

If he lost it that's his fault with no lacking on your part for you extened the proper respect, who's the bigger person?

It's not your or my place to judge who gets respect and who does'nt, that's Martial Sprit.

Let me add this example,

Your going to spar an unknown guy for to first time, you must respect automatically the possibilty he can take you out, he does'nt have to earn the unknown factor.

Only after you come out on top would you lose some respect for his ability. However your might gain respect for his heart etc.

Respect always goes first.

[tekkengod]

For some reason that senetnce really doesnt do a good job of convincing me that MMA guys arent thugs...

you know, i've been over this a thousand times with plenty of diffrent people, i'm not in the mood to argue this point any more at the moment, maybe in a few hours when i get a burst of energy. MMA fighters aren't thugs, plain and simple, call them what you wish, but i don't think "thug" is a very fair word

[American HKD]

you know, i've been over this a thousand times with plenty of diffrent people, i'm not in the mood to argue this point any more at the moment, maybe in a few hours when i get a burst of energy. MMA fighters aren't thugs, plain and simple, call them what you wish, but i don't think "thug" is a very fair word

What do they mean MMA guys are thugs?

[tekkengod]

Mr Shotokanwarrior,

Your right you may be a very mature young man no offense intended.
Ouch....if i recall......Shotokan was a girl :eek:

[tekkengod]

Again, i'd be happy to offer myself as a test subject. I'm in central texas. We can go as many rounds as you want, with as many or few rules as you want (all in a friendly spirit) and test any theories you may have. Hell, if you want to test your "knife defenses", bring a training blade or a marker and we'll see who gets the most marks on their bad selves.

i'm in central texas as well, although i'm sure you and i are on the same page with this one, i'd still like to roll a few rounds for the hell of it if you are interested?

[tekkengod]

Sacred Excrement! Where do you live????


as surprised as you may be, on a military instillation. Ft.Hood.
and alot of people think, "well theres no crime with all those MPs rolling around"

WRONG!! we had someone killed just last week, but this is certainly a much safer place than say downtown Heights {the town outside of Ft hood}

"same princaple as a condom, i'd rather have one and not need it, than need one and not have it."-random chick for the AVP movie :D thats my thought process with knives.

[tekkengod]

What do they mean MMA guys are thugs?

thats what i've been trying to figure out for the last few days. apparently, to most it means that that simply because they enjoy testing themselves, pushing there limits, get off on the ocassional Adrenalnie rush and simply enjoy a good old fashioned fight, {which i might add is extreamly safe with all the medical personal on site and referees.} that makes them a "thug" dosen't make any sense to me what so ever. but give me a little while to wake up and i'll be ready to debate with these people a bit more.

[tekkengod]

Good... I look forward to it. If you have time and feel up to it, we can do a tour of some good schools that you may find enlightening. Oh, and bring your passport... we'll hit some schools in Canada too.

As for the "couple of rounds"... we can start nice and easy and then work as hard as you'd like... my goal is to show you what we do, not to "beat you up". And I do have good control... I am usually the first person anybody at the school spars... because I break them in gently. It'll be fun.

that would be nice, i don't think i'll be able to hit canada though, seeing as how i have no passport!!! but i'd love doing a good tour and a few rounds, i'll see what i can do with my calender.

[tekkengod]

Tekkengod:

You are contradicting yourself. I did see you list boxing, but you said fighters are generally trained in Boxing, not that they are solely boxers. This implies that they have other training as well since fighters according to you are trainted in all 3 ranges. Boxers are OBVIOUSLY precluded from that group.

Stop trying to run around argument, gladiators were not necessarily trained in clinch and groundfighting. You either maintain your definition and exclude gladiators from the fighter class or change your definition. Which is it?

i didn't say they were trained in all three ranges, i said that they were trained in various ranges of WEAPONS in life and death fights every day, and in my book, reguardless of your training, if you have to fight for your life on a daily basis and do so successfully repeatedly while improving your ability to do so and then continuing to do so once you are allowed to quit {introduction of fighting for freedom and money} then you are a figher.

Intersting FACT: in the early days it was slave vs slave, pow vs pow. ect. but once gladiator schools were set up and it became more of a fame and money thing which was open to all who wanted to try. they completed a course of instruction at the schools which DID include unarmed fighting and all 3 ranges.

[doshim]

Mr Davis,

Let me add this example,

Your going to spar an unknown guy for to first time, you must respect automatically the possibilty he can take you out, he does'nt have to earn the unknown factor.




Mr Rosenberg,

I love this subject. It may even deserve it’s own thread!

If I spar someone for the first time, I can acknowledge the possibility that he can take me out. I wouldn’t use the word respect. If he does indeed take me out, he has my respect. Again, I am not saying that people have to prove themselves in my eyes. I just don’t think it should be a hard and fast rule: “Respect Your Elders”. I respect everyone equally, whether they be older, my age, or younger. If they deserve my respect, I most graciously and willingly give it to them. Every human deserves to be treated with kindness, courtesy, and compassion. But, respect is a reaction to someone’s character. I cannot honestly feel respect for someone until I know their character. If I show someone respect, without knowing their character, I am doing so blindly. Therefore falsely.

[Banpen Fugyo]

Intersting FACT: in the early days it was slave vs slave, pow vs pow. ect. but once gladiator schools were set up and it became more of a fame and money thing which was open to all who wanted to try. they completed a course of instruction at the schools which DID include unarmed fighting and all 3 ranges.

So basically your saying that fighting went from defending your life or the lives of others to fighting for a vain and self promoting purpose, such as being a gladiator. So do modern sport athletes have this same egoist attitude? If using violence as a means of self definition and self worth DOESNT equal a thug, what does?

[NaughtyKnight]

There is no real Warrior hand to hand fighting, because there aint no need for it anymore. There is guns, bombs and other nasty weapons that kindof negates the need for an uppercut.

UFC is a sporting arena, nothing more. They are not warriors, though they are gladiators. They are partaking in sport, nothing else.

People that fight on the street are not warriors either, they are just normal people that feel like fighting.

When the Army is bombing Iraq they are warriors, a poor meaning to the word I know, but that is the closest we have to the more romantic imagery of warriors.

[American HKD]

Mr Rosenberg,

I love this subject. It may even deserve it’s own thread!

If I spar someone for the first time, I can acknowledge the possibility that he can take me out. I wouldn’t use the word respect. If he does indeed take me out, he has my respect. Again, I am not saying that people have to prove themselves in my eyes. I just don’t think it should be a hard and fast rule: “Respect Your Elders”. I respect everyone equally, whether they be older, my age, or younger. If they deserve my respect, I most graciously and willingly give it to them. Every human deserves to be treated with kindness, courtesy, and compassion. But, respect is a reaction to someone’s character. I cannot honestly feel respect for someone until I know their character. If I show someone respect, without knowing their character, I am doing so blindly. Therefore falsely.

Greetings,

I not saying your wrong, but I see it differently.

You have merits, I have merits
You have faults, I have faults

I give basic respect "just because" your a Human Being, that's real god given respect we each deserve from the start.

You have my respect right now, if your a jerk to prove to be a person of low morals, ethics, etc. you will lose my respect, and real fast I might add.

Please understand all of what I'm saying is in the simple sense. I won't respect you for such great person until I see those great qualities, in that regard I agree with you.

Anyway that's it I hope you catch my drift?

[doshim]

Please understand all of what I'm saying is in the simple sense. I won't respect you for such great person until I see those great qualities, in that regard I agree with you.

Anyway that's it I hope you catch my drift?

Mr Rosenberg,

I definitely see where you're coming from and I appreciate the opportunity to share ideas with you.

[American HKD]

Mr Rosenberg,

I definitely see where you're coming from and I appreciate the opportunity to share ideas with you.

How long are you training with GM Han?

[Scarlet Mist]

There is no real Warrior hand to hand fighting, because there aint no need for it anymore. There is guns, bombs and other nasty weapons that kindof negates the need for an uppercut.

UFC is a sporting arena, nothing more. They are not warriors, though they are gladiators. They are partaking in sport, nothing else.

People that fight on the street are not warriors either, they are just normal people that feel like fighting.

When the Army is bombing Iraq they are warriors, a poor meaning to the word I know, but that is the closest we have to the more romantic imagery of warriors.


Tell dem!

This "warrior" thing is getting out of hand.
And all your training will go out the window when cats pull a .44 on you. Hence unarmed training is not the best way to go to war.

[Thomas]

Here's a couple of questions on the topic:

(1) Is competition an essential aspect of martial arts... is it the only way to test your skills?

(2) Are there valid ways of testing your skills without competing... if so, what are some that can be used?

(3) How many hours of training ratio:wise go into training for 2 or 3 minutes in the ring... and is that ringtime absolutely essential?

(4) Hapkido practitioners normally don't compete... how do they test their skills (especially locks and such) without the element of competition? Are they using different training methods with the same results? Examples?


On a side note, the whole "thug", "warrior", "fancy-pants pyjama wearers" stuff seems to me to be fairly petty wrangling over some gross over-generalizations. I don't see that any good can come of arguing over stuff like that. I myself get riled up when TKDists or Hapkidoists get labelled with blanket statements... so I don't see why we should do the same. (Please don't take this as an attempt to moderate - that's not my job nor desire)

[tekkengod]

So basically your saying that fighting went from defending your life or the lives of others to fighting for a vain and self promoting purpose, such as being a gladiator

no, i'm not, i'm saying thats the way it went for gladiators, that was a little off topic, but i was arguing a point with scarlet, Gladiators, went from defending their lives and the lives of others to fighting for a self promoting purpose, because they were given the opportunity, and seeing as how they were already good at it, the idea of fighting for a reward such as total freedom, paying off a debt or simply for money was much more appealing than fighting simply to stay alive and repeat the process, because now they can stop whenever they so choose.

[doshim]

On a side note, the whole "thug", "warrior", "fancy-pants pyjama wearers" stuff seems to me to be fairly petty wrangling over some gross over-generalizations. I don't see that any good can come of arguing over stuff like that. I myself get riled up when TKDists or Hapkidoists get labelled with blanket statements... so I don't see why we should do the same. (Please don't take this as an attempt to moderate - that's not my job nor desire)

It’s all perception. Everyone views things from their side of the fence through their lens. It’s outstanding that there exists a forum such as this where people can seek to understand themselves as well as others. Knowledge is gained through exposure.

And my hat is off to you Thomas for being fair-minded, even-handed, and always keeping the peace.


Mr Rosenberg,

I've been training under GM Han since 1993 and managing the organization since 2002.

[American HKD]

Mr Rosenberg,

"......I've been training under GM Han since 1993 and managing the organization since 2002.....

Sounds interesting, what does your position entail?

If you don't to answer in the open format I undrstand or you can PM me if you don't mind discussing the subject.

Thanks

[shotokanwarrior]

Mr Shotokanwarrior,

Your right you may be a very mature young man no offense intended.


I'm a girl.

As you get older you'll realize nothing means more than expirience in life, we can be stuborn, hard to change like anyone else but expirience and age is the greatest teacher of all.

For the mere fact alone that someones older deserves to be given a higher level of respect and spoken to with courtesy even if we are wrong.

No that's wrong. You may be older but it does not make you better or deserving of more respect. We are all human beings with an inherent dignity which should be respected no matter who we are.

Yesterday I was chased up a hill by a woman of about 50 wanting to hammer the snot out of me after I

I also disagree that age is the greatest teacher.

[tekkengod]

There is no real Warrior hand to hand fighting, because there aint no need for it anymore. There is guns, bombs and other nasty weapons that kindof negates the need for an uppercut.

UFC is a sporting arena, nothing more. They are not warriors, though they are gladiators. They are partaking in sport, nothing else.

People that fight on the street are not warriors either, they are just normal people that feel like fighting.

When the Army is bombing Iraq they are warriors, a poor meaning to the word I know, but that is the closest we have to the more romantic imagery of warriors.

i never said they were "romantic warriors" just that they are very hard working athletes and that simply competing in a sport does not make you a "thug".

[shotokanwarrior]

Mr Shotokanwarrior,

Your right you may be a very mature young man no offense intended.


I'm a girl.

As you get older you'll realize nothing means more than expirience in life, we can be stuborn, hard to change like anyone else but expirience and age is the greatest teacher of all.

For the mere fact alone that someones older deserves to be given a higher level of respect and spoken to with courtesy even if we are wrong.

No that's wrong. You may be older but it does not make you better or deserving of more respect. We are all human beings with an inherent dignity which should be respected no matter who we are.

Yesterday I was chased up a hill by a drunk woman of about 50 wanting to hammer the snot out of me after I accused her of being a racist because she said that 'all Nigerians ought to be deported.' So please don't tell me that older people are somehow inherently better or worth more than younger people.

Your argument that age is one of the greatest teachers also does not mean that young people are lesser or should not be listened to. Being young does not make me automatically somehow naive or inexperienced. Climbing up does not mean knocking someone else down.

Also, experience cannot be monopolized. It's everywhere, the world is in front of your face every last yacto-second of your life. So for example if I see an atrocity in the world and condemn it, it is no less valid than if someone of 114 sees the same atrocity and condemns it.

By the way, American HKD - I'm not trying to catch you out, really, but I'd like to quote one of your earlier posts:

ALL YOU GUYS ARE DOING IS TAKING THINGS OUT OF CONTEXT JUST TO SAY I'M WRONG IN ANY WAY YOU ALL CAN.

YOUR ALL VERY INSECURE PEOPLE ...STOP TRYING TO DISPROVE EVERYTHING I SAY BECAUSE IT DOES'NT FOLLOW YOUR THOUGHTS, IT SHOWS YOUR IGNORANCE GROW UP



You are 2x my age, but I would not post like you just did because 1) it would give people something to criticise and 2) 'losing it' doesn't get you anywhere.

Maybe I'm just calm/intense to the point of psychotic. But my point is that I don't think you have much right to tell me I am somehow lesser or deserve less respect than you because I am younger when you 'lost it' when I would not have.

See, there's an example of that age does not equal learning or experience. I've learned - and it has since been inherent to me - never to indiscriminately express anger but to argue an actual point(albeit passionately, I'll admit that.). Yet there are adults around who don't do that and just go berserk.

[tekkengod]

Hence unarmed training is not the best way to go to war.

no ones arguing that, you won't see too many guys try to spring across a minefield while dodging sniper fire to disarm the guy, {well maybe in movies :rolleyes:}

[doshim]

Mr Rosenberg,

"......I've been training under GM Han since 1993 and managing the organization since 2002.....

Sounds interesting, what does your position entail?

If you don't to answer in the open format I undrstand or you can PM me if you don't mind discussing the subject.

Thanks

I'll PM you.

[Scarlet Mist]

no ones arguing that, you won't see too many guys try to spring across a minefield while dodging sniper fire to disarm the guy, {well maybe in movies :rolleyes:}

That was not my point. Let me explain it for those who need it to be explained: A warrior is someone who goes to war. Most martial artists train unarmed combat, thus they are unsuitable for war because the would get murdered. Of course, this point has been made before, which is why I felt that I did not need to be any clearer. I was supporting KnightCommander's point.

[tekkengod]

i know that but i can never be too sure who you are speaking to seeing as how sometimes you'll adress the whole audiance and others you'll address a post from 3 pages ago without quoting it. i was just saying in referance to the whole "MMA fighters are thugs" BS, that i never said they were warriors.

[NaughtyKnight]

i never said they were "romantic warriors" just that they are very hard working athletes and that simply competing in a sport does not make you a "thug".

And I never said that you were wrong. I was commenting on the general topic of this thread.

[NaughtyKnight]

I'm a girl.



No that's wrong. You may be older but it does not make you better or deserving of more respect. We are all human beings with an inherent dignity which should be respected no matter who we are.

Yesterday I was chased up a hill by a drunk woman of about 50 wanting to hammer the snot out of me after I accused her of being a racist because she said that 'all Nigerians ought to be deported.' So please don't tell me that older people are somehow inherently better or worth more than younger people.

Your argument that age is one of the greatest teachers also does not mean that young people are lesser or should not be listened to. Being young does not make me automatically somehow naive or inexperienced. Climbing up does not mean knocking someone else down.

Also, experience cannot be monopolized. It's everywhere, the world is in front of your face every last yacto-second of your life. So for example if I see an atrocity in the world and condemn it, it is no less valid than if someone of 114 sees the same atrocity and condemns it.

By the way, American HKD - I'm not trying to catch you out, really, but I'd like to quote one of your earlier posts:



You are 2x my age, but I would not post like you just did because 1) it would give people something to criticise and 2) 'losing it' doesn't get you anywhere.

Maybe I'm just calm/intense to the point of psychotic. But my point is that I don't think you have much right to tell me I am somehow lesser or deserve less respect than you because I am younger when you 'lost it' when I would not have.

See, there's an example of that age does not equal learning or experience. I've learned - and it has since been inherent to me - never to indiscriminately express anger but to argue an actual point(albeit passionately, I'll admit that.). Yet there are adults around who don't do that and just go berserk.

Rofl nice Shotokan. Shoot it out for us youngsters.

Ageism is a discrimination just like sexism and racism. Im sick of people telling me that just because I am young, that I dont know anything. I have street smarts just as much as the next guy, I have experienced alot in my short (19 yrs in 5days) life.

[tekkengod]

i know what you mean, i am much more mature and intelligent than most of the soliders around here, i watch them do some DUMB stuff often, just last week my neighbor got drunk and beat the hell out of a 8 year old kid down the street....its a shame people do crap like that, but he swung at a cop i heard, so i'm sure he got hit wit ha tonfa a few times. point being, i've seen older people who are supposedly mature and intellgent be absolute idiots.

[shotokanwarrior]

Rofl nice Shotokan. Shoot it out for us youngsters.


Thanks Knightcommander :love:

Ageism is discrimination just like sexism and racism

You're right. It never ceases to amaze me how racism or sexism can get someone's adrenaline up, but they hear young people being patronised and they just accept it. Like we're not even considered human beings or something.

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Ageism? C'mon kids - enough. This is a Hapkido forum - on a martial arts bulletin board - you may not "think" some of these people deserve your respect - but look at the advice offered here and by whom -

Stuart Rosenberg, 6th Dan Sin Moo - Directly under Grandmaster Ji, Han Jae
Thomas, both Combat Hapkido and Traditional Hapkido
Todd Miller, 5th Dan Jung Ki Kwan - Under Grandmaster Lim, Hyun Soo

Just to name a few. Now, you may not agree with some of the characterizations that are made here - but frankly the bottom line is that inrealtion to discussion about Hapkido, few others could offer more information. I don't want to patronize any of you, but any of the above men has TRAINED longer than your lives so far - now that doesn't AUTOMATICALLY mean that someone is a better person or has great judgement - but credit where it is due, we (and I include me here) have seen lots of this stuff before. In reality, MMA is nothing new - what is new is that we are expected to assume that COMPETITION MMA (note I said COMPETITION) is martial arts - even UFC calls themselves spots atheletes - and the marketing does not always show them in a good light.

Personally, I do not consider MMA martial arts, but a combat sport - governed by rules and competitive spirit. If these atheletes wanted to martial artists, the sport would last one bout - and people would be permenantly injured - they all wnat to win, but to protect the longevity of the sport by not killing each other or making it impossible for competitors to perform for money several times a year. I would not characterize MMA as "thugs" - but the marketing machine tries to create this type of image.

Now, non-competitve style MMA seems like a great idea for those that enjoy that - working with lots different style models to create a good overall training scheme. Again, great if that's what you want.

Final shot, we were all your ages once - I satarted training at 14 - so I know what you can face when the older guys pick on you just becasue of your age - but where I ADMIRE a lot of this tenacity (and I hope you keep it up for years) - remember that training in an art - in this case Hapkido is based on a hierarchy - some of which we give up here on the net - but experience in training does speak for something...

[Keljian]

It upsets me to see a thread like this turning into a flame war, there is real scope for a good discussion but it sounds like people can't set aside their egos and try to get to the heart of the question.

Look closely at your art, look closely at yourself, and then tell me, do you train to win? or do you train to train?

To a martial artist, it doesn't matter who wins or loses, just that mutual respect and understanding granted.

Sensei once showed me that aikido could be trained both ways, to be effective meant that it didn't have to be perfect technique, you didn't have to focus on say keeping your back straight, or your feet at 45 degree angles or such. But to study it for the art meant trying to work toward perfection of the technique and through it yourself.

A martial artist's soul is different from a normal person's, their spirit more refined, tempered, extranious things not useful to growth discarded for dedication to their own personal development. It's like the forging of a japanese sword, the blade slowly worked, and with each refinement it becomes closer to perfection.

It's like contrasting competition dance to romantic dance. Competitors strive to have technically perfect dancing which in and of itself is an admirable goal, but that is galaxies apart from the feeling you have when you dance with someone you love more than anyone else in the world, in such a way that it cannot be put into words.

[American HKD]

I'm a girl.



No that's wrong. You may be older but it does not make you better or deserving of more respect. We are all human beings with an inherent dignity which should be respected no matter who we are.

Yesterday I was chased up a hill by a drunk woman of about 50 wanting to hammer the snot out of me after I accused her of being a racist because she said that 'all Nigerians ought to be deported.' So please don't tell me that older people are somehow inherently better or worth more than younger people.

Your argument that age is one of the greatest teachers also does not mean that young people are lesser or should not be listened to. Being young does not make me automatically somehow naive or inexperienced. Climbing up does not mean knocking someone else down.

Also, experience cannot be monopolized. It's everywhere, the world is in front of your face every last yacto-second of your life. So for example if I see an atrocity in the world and condemn it, it is no less valid than if someone of 114 sees the same atrocity and condemns it.

By the way, American HKD - I'm not trying to catch you out, really, but I'd like to quote one of your earlier posts:



You are 2x my age, but I would not post like you just did because 1) it would give people something to criticise and 2) 'losing it' doesn't get you anywhere.

Maybe I'm just calm/intense to the point of psychotic. But my point is that I don't think you have much right to tell me I am somehow lesser or deserve less respect than you because I am younger when you 'lost it' when I would not have.

See, there's an example of that age does not equal learning or experience. I've learned - and it has since been inherent to me - never to indiscriminately express anger but to argue an actual point(albeit passionately, I'll admit that.). Yet there are adults around who don't do that and just go berserk.

Greetings,

I'm not going to look for all of your quotes to pick on, and I did get a bit frustrated from a few of you for which I apologize.

I admire the interest you all have in MA, however many of you lack good understandings of many "fine points" of MA, whether you want to believe it or not. Most of you have not trained long enough to have gained the maturity which takes 10,15,20 years in the MA period.

I'm well aware that this post will not be accepted by some of you but tht will just prove my points.

I will compare some of you like a grade school kids telling a college Prof. he doesn't know what he's talking about, and when a few all do it at the same time it's really crazy.

Most if not all of you are my seriously my junior in MA especially Hapkido. When you have trained as long as I have under some of the Great MAist on the planet and have acheived a certain status in MA you will be different people with clear & mature outlooks.

Right now most of you are students, not Instructor let alone Masters of any Art.

Common courtesy is seriously lacking with many of you and it's frustrating to see the lack of respect.

Take what I said as intended to help you, or discard it as non sense your choice.

BTW, Thank You Master Kevin Sogar for your input.

[Keljian]

I admire the interest you all have in MA, however many of you lack good understandings of many "fine points" of MA, whether you want to believe it or not. Most of you have not trained long enough to have gained the maturity which takes 10,15,20 years in the MA period.

I will compare some of you like a grade school kids telling a college Prof. he doesn't know what he's talking about, and when a few all do it at the same time it's really crazy.

Most if not all of you are my seriously my junior in MA especially Hapkido. When you have trained as long as I have under some of the Great MAist on the planet and have acheived a certain status in MA you will be different people with clear & mature outlooks.

Right now most of you are students, not Instructor let alone Masters of any Art.


Dear Sir,
While you may have extensive training in Hapkido, or other martial arts, I believe it is yourself who is lacking maturity in this instance. While it may be that some people act like "grade school kids telling a college Prof." it is a credit to the college professor who sits back and does not buy into the rantings of the "kids" while maintaining his stance on the topic with which he is most adept.

I sense a feeling of elitism coming from you, "when you have trained as long as I have..etc etc ". Everyone has their own path to take, everyone learns their own lessons as they need to, it is wrong to assume that theirs is not as important, or dare I say not as valid as your own. It is therefore wrong to critisize without truly knowing what one has endured, or conquered in their life.

As a MA student I do not profess to know everything, and I daresay I will never in my entire life, even after 80 years of training (if my body allows) completely have a grasp of everything to do with MA or such. It would be wrong for me to assume that I would. Even when I do become an instructor, I will still be a student, and it will always be that way with me. My Sensei is the world, not just my instructor.

While you say that you admire the "interest" that the people who have replied to this thread have, you have missed a basic principle, that of respect for others training, whether it be 1 years worth or 50 years worth in saying what you did.

What you said is downright disrespectful.

Sincerely.

R.

[American HKD]

Dear Sir,
While you may have extensive training in Hapkido, or other martial arts, I believe it is yourself who is lacking maturity in this instance. While it may be that some people act like "grade school kids telling a college Prof." it is a credit to the college professor who sits back and does not buy into the rantings of the "kids" while maintaining his stance on the topic with which he is most adept.

I sense a feeling of elitism coming from you, "when you have trained as long as I have..etc etc ". Everyone has their own path to take, everyone learns their own lessons as they need to, it is wrong to assume that theirs is not as important, or dare I say not as valid as your own. It is therefore wrong to critisize without truly knowing what one has endured, or conquered in their life.

As a MA student I do not profess to know everything, and I daresay I will never in my entire life, even after 80 years of training (if my body allows) completely have a grasp of everything to do with MA or such. It would be wrong for me to assume that I would. Even when I do become an instructor, I will still be a student, and it will always be that way with me. My Sensei is the world, not just my instructor.

While you say that you admire the "interest" that the people who have replied to this thread have, you have missed a basic principle, that of respect for others training, whether it be 1 years worth or 50 years worth in saying what you did.

What you said is downright disrespectful.

Sincerely.

R.

Mr Keljian,

Sometime people need tough love or constructive critisim and they may not like to hear it.

I suppose when your Father or Mother or Uncle, Mentor, Teacher tells you something that's you don't like thier disrepectfull too right?

The truth is the truth, I'm sure many young students here don't agrrue with thier Instructors face to face as they do here, where hiding behind a computor gives many artificial sense boldness.

[Keljian]

Greetings

Sometime people need tough love or constructive critisim, but as I said above many of you won't have the maturity to listen in the proper light.

I suppose when your Father or Mother or Uncle, Mentor, Teacher tells you something that's hard to handle thier disrepectfull too right?

I won't feed the fire.

Simply, it's not what you say, but how you say it.

[NaughtyKnight]

Greetings,

I'm not going to look for all of your quotes to pick on, and I did get a bit frustrated from a few of you for which I apologize.

I admire the interest you all have in MA, however many of you lack good understandings of many "fine points" of MA, whether you want to believe it or not. Most of you have not trained long enough to have gained the maturity which takes 10,15,20 years in the MA period.

What finer points are you talking about my friend? Is it some super secret, deadly thing that will make me instantlya better person? Martial arts is a sport mate, not a secret way of life, I dont see anyother sport patronising juniors, there is not point you doing it either.


I'm well aware that this post will not be accepted by some of you but tht will just prove my points.

Your post wont be accepted for many reason, us being "immature" isnt one of them. If I came on here and said "MA is for young people, old people have no right to do it and dont know anything" im sure my post would be disscounted for complete and utter crap just like your one is."

will compare some of you like a grade school kids telling a college Prof. he doesn't know what he's talking about, and when a few all do it at the same time it's really crazy.

What is your rank in HKD? If you are not very high, 8th dan at least, then you are not a metaphorical collage proffesor.

most if not all of you are my seriously my junior in MA especially Hapkido. When you have trained as long as I have under some of the Great MAist on the planet and have acheived a certain status in MA you will be different people with clear & mature outlooks.

I dont care if Im your junior in HKD. Look at the Olympics, K1, UFC, how old are these people? My age, not yours. It is a sport, doesnt matter how long you have been doing it, its based on ability, as we cannot measure eachother on this forum there is no point debating who is ones superior.

Right now most of you are students, not Instructor let alone Masters of any Art.

And your point is? You are also a student my friend. Just because you are older doesnt mean you are better. People that have been doing ma for longer than you have been beaten by people my age, either on the street, or it arenas. It happens every day. Just goes to show that length of study and age means nothing in sport.

Wayne Rooney is my age, and he could own many "older" football players. He may be young but im sure he is alot of "older" and longer players superior.

Common courtesy is seriously lacking with many of you and it's frustrating to see the lack of respect.

My respect is earned, not a god given right because you have been on this planet longer than me. Just as your respect for me has to be earned.

Take what I said as intended to help you, or discard it as non sense your choice.

BTW, Thank You Master Kevin Sogar for your input.[/QUOTE]

Um yeh ok man, sorry to doubt your obvious superiority. :rolleyes:

[NaughtyKnight]

Greetings

Sometime people need tough love or constructive critisim, but as I said above many of you won't have the maturity to listen in the proper light.

I suppose when your Father or Mother or Uncle, Mentor, Teacher tells you something that's hard to handle thier disrepectfull too right?

Your critisim was far from constructive. Saying that we are immature, even when you dont know us, is not constructive and is regarded as trolling.

If my Father, Mother, Uncle, Mentor, Teacher said something like what you said I would laugh them off and think they were on crack or something. Non of them thinks themselves superior.

Thoes that cant do teach, the best quote ever.

[American HKD]

Ok kids I'm done here, Thank you all for acting as I said you would.

[NaughtyKnight]

Mate 18 (19 in 4 days), that counts me as an adult. Do not down talk to me.

The only immature person here is you. You have too much self love.

[American HKD]

Mate 18 (19 in 4 days), that counts me as an adult. Do not down talk to me.

The only immature person here is you. You have too much self love.

Greetings,

Stating fact is not self love, I am what I am because I worked for it, you are what you are, maybe one day you'll get somewhere in MA.

[tekkengod]

Mate 18 (19 in 4 days), that counts me as an adult. Do not down talk to me.

The only immature person here is you. You have too much self love.

wow, somebodys on the move!!! u tell em KC!!

[tekkengod]

Greetings,

Stating fact is not self love, I am what I am because I worked for it, you are what you are, maybe one day you'll get somewhere in MA.

no, i was going to say i don't think its self love, but you say that as if is impossible he hasn't already, do you know his backgroung? rather impressive if you ask me.

[NaughtyKnight]

HAHAHAH, yeh ok man. You must be psycic if you know where I am In ma over the internet.

You need to get off your high horse and realise that you are nothing special.

[Bob1770]

I think some spend more time anylizing and criticizing every system that doesn't fit their ideals that they lose focus of their goals and spend more time on this board conflicting with everyone who wants to participate than actually training. Get off your arse and off your computer and workout half as hard as you talk. CONSIDER THIS: Before you respond with sarcasm, join us for one class, you will find an open invitation to our class in the Hapkido forum directly from our instructor.

[NaughtyKnight]

I think some spend more time anylizing and criticizing every system that doesn't fit their ideals that they lose focus of their goals and spend more time on this board conflicting with everyone who wants to participate than actually training. Get off your arse and off your computer and workout half as hard as you talk. CONSIDER THIS: Before you respond with sarcasm, join us for one class, you will find an open invitation to our class in the Hapkido forum directly from our instructor.

I hope that wasn't directed towards me.

[American HKD]

Greetings,

Why is it that many of you young gentleman don't post the following on your profiles here at the forum.

1. age
2. time in x system or systems
3. rank in any of the systems
4. Who your Instructors are
5. other important info on your MA background

I know many of you are "Great Masters of the Keyboard", so no need to post your credentials here.

I can't wait to read all about all of your accomplishments and expiriences off the Keyboard.

[Bob1770]

Threads that end up like this one seem to be more common here at the Planet, and it's a shame. They make it increasingly more difficult to log on and try to participate here. What used to be a great tool for people with a common interest to share their thoughts and experiences has really started to move in the wrong direction, and threads like this one are what drags it down. I should by all means be big enough to ignore the foolishness that goes on here, but the increase in just that makes it hard to ignore. End of Rant. :bang:

[American HKD]

I won't feed the fire.

Simply, it's not what you say, but how you say it.


Dear Keljian,

Thank You.

I'm not tying to be mean with my statements, but I say what's on my mind plain and simple.

[American HKD]

Threads that end up like this one seem to be more common here at the Planet, and it's a shame. They make it increasingly more difficult to log on and try to participate here. What used to be a great tool for people with a common interest to share their thoughts and experiences has really started to move in the wrong direction, and threads like this one are what drags it down. I should by all means be big enough to ignore the foolishness that goes on here, but the increase in just that makes it hard to ignore. End of Rant. :bang:

Greetings,

I agree Bob, and althought I'm a part of this, I made up my mind not to let a few disrespectfull people think they can bully others or myself off the keyboard with thier wise cracks and senseless rants.

I too could just stop posting but I won't let it go away.

I happen to be an accomplished HKD Master as well as being fairly accomplished in a couple of other Arts.

What have most of these keyboard hot shots done?

Let them tell me they have 10 years, 15 years in MA or produced some good black belts, or show us thier award wining victories in amature or profesional contests.

We'll see if any own up, or can put some quality facts where thier fingers hit the keyboard up til now I've have'nt seen anyone even close to a professional MA here just a few children playing Martial Artists on the computor.

Since these guys like to make others "earn thier respect" let them earn mine now.

[tekkengod]

Greetings,

Why is it that many of you young gentleman don't post the following on your profiles here at the forum.

1. age
2. time in x system or systems
3. rank in any of the systems
4. Who your Instructors are
5. other important info on your MA background

i have posted this information.

[shotokanwarrior]

I agree with the points made by Keljian and Knightcommander. American HKD - Not having a mountain of credentials does not mean you should not be listened to or are somehow lesser. Climbing up does not mean knocking other people down. Someone being a 'master' does not negate the fact that people are still common human beings with common sense.

If someone says something that you see is flawed, you should tell them why, not patronise them by saying that the only reason they believe what they do is because they are immature.

Aside from the fact that it's condescending, it's indefensible if you can't justify it. I could invent a sect called 'The Wondrous Ethereal Essence of Excrement' and every time someone disagreed with me, wave that away by saying that they didn't know what they were saying because they didn't have secret wisdom imparted by the Wondrous Ethereal Essence of Excrement.

By the way. About people's achievements off the keyboard? I have been offered the chance to train with a 6th Dan because, I have been told, I have exceptional ability. It came to light when I graded under a 10th Dan and he contacted his junior because he had noticed that my movements were 'extremely good.'

This 'master' is an extremely dismissive and impersonal individual so impressing him was a considerable achievement.

I don't normally boast about this and I'm actually quite secretive about my MA training in my everyday life, but you wanted something resembling credentials so...I think if I'm considered that good I must have some 'understanding' of my art, whatever this elusive quality actually is.

So if that line 'just children playing martial artists' was directed at me, I think you can rescind it.

Now I'm out of here, listening to this thread is just driving my adrenaline levels up.

[Spikedude]

Dear Sir,
While you may have extensive training in Hapkido, or other martial arts, I believe it is yourself who is lacking maturity in this instance. While it may be that some people act like "grade school kids telling a college Prof." it is a credit to the college professor who sits back and does not buy into the rantings of the "kids" while maintaining his stance on the topic with which he is most adept.

I sense a feeling of elitism coming from you, "when you have trained as long as I have..etc etc ". Everyone has their own path to take, everyone learns their own lessons as they need to, it is wrong to assume that theirs is not as important, or dare I say not as valid as your own. It is therefore wrong to critisize without truly knowing what one has endured, or conquered in their life.

As a MA student I do not profess to know everything, and I daresay I will never in my entire life, even after 80 years of training (if my body allows) completely have a grasp of everything to do with MA or such. It would be wrong for me to assume that I would. Even when I do become an instructor, I will still be a student, and it will always be that way with me. My Sensei is the world, not just my instructor.

While you say that you admire the "interest" that the people who have replied to this thread have, you have missed a basic principle, that of respect for others training, whether it be 1 years worth or 50 years worth in saying what you did.

What you said is downright disrespectful.

Sincerely.

R.
Well said, I couldnt put it any better.

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

OK, we've gone two full and complete rounds of who thinks who is more immature. Let's get back to topic - I think all have something to add, but keeping in mind that some of us may have a little more experience in Hapkido (or other arts) than others.

Back to the intent of the thread - but lets broaden it a bit and maybe split it down as well:

1. What are the philosophical tenets behind YOUR training (we are in the Hapkido forum - so PRIMARILY Hapkido) and what do you hope to accomplish from your training?

2. Because BJJ is now so often used as an add-on to Hapkido - or even a component of some schools of Hapkido - (I believe in Combat Hapkido ((Right, Thomas?)) ) what are the philosophical tenets behind this singularly or as an add-on component and what do you hope to accomplish from your training? And I am not for one moment suggesting here that BJJ does not stand on its own - but it is often sighted as an add on element.

For the record, I do not train in BJJ, so I cannot comment on it at all - maybe some of you can. OK, 16 or 60 lets give the age thing a little rest and progress with the discussion here. Remember, the WORLD is watching the footprint you leave on the internet - so all personal sniping aside - lets see if this can be a good discussion again...

Again, we should be looking for YOUR personal asperations - no need to say "its great" - you wouldn't train in it otherwise - something a little more thoughtful and personal is what will draw this out well.

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

I'll start, if that's OK?

I always wanted to get as close to the roots of the teaching of Choi Dojunim as possible - it was that simple for me. I have always felt that the closer one gets to the source, the purer the art becomes -

Philosophically, I train for two reasons - self improvement and self realization. Self improvement to gain better understanding of what I am capable of and self realization so that I can understand others through a more fully developed understanding of who I am as a person.

I have never really been that concerned about self defense - because the nature of the training makes that aspect automatic - and because I eventually grew to outsize most low-land gorillas, I don't get jumped too often.

I have also always felt that the nature of my training was the study of a single art - I have done several others in my early days, but found that the concentration on a single art was better for me as I could work on all the nuances and structures of the art without distraction as I see it.

I hope that from my training and experience, I can do two things:
1. Keep the teaching of Choi Dojunim alive for one more generation.
2. Impart to my students the clearest picture of the training that I have been lucky enough to receive.

[American HKD]

i have posted this information.

Nice, I think you left out your rank & in what, Also your age.

Martial Arts Style:
Jujitsu - Tai Chi - Shotokan - Muay Thai
Biography:
I've been at it for 6 years, and i love every minute of it. all and any info is absorbed. I'm a real UFC wannabe. i love being the underdog.

In 6 years have you a black belt or equivilent in any of these Arts. Or are you still a Kyu grade?

Won any championships in competition amature or pro?

[American HKD]

I agree with the points made by Keljian and Knightcommander. American HKD - Not having a mountain of credentials does not mean you should not be listened to or are somehow lesser. Climbing up does not mean knocking other people down. Someone being a 'master' does not negate the fact that people are still common human beings with common sense.

If someone says something that you see is flawed, you should tell them why, not patronise them by saying that the only reason they believe what they do is because they are immature.

Aside from the fact that it's condescending, it's indefensible if you can't justify it. I could invent a sect called 'The Wondrous Ethereal Essence of Excrement' and every time someone disagreed with me, wave that away by saying that they didn't know what they were saying because they didn't have secret wisdom imparted by the Wondrous Ethereal Essence of Excrement.

By the way. About people's achievements off the keyboard? I have been offered the chance to train with a 6th Dan because, I have been told, I have exceptional ability. It came to light when I graded under a 10th Dan and he contacted his junior because he had noticed that my movements were 'extremely good.'

This 'master' is an extremely dismissive and impersonal individual so impressing him was a considerable achievement.

I don't normally boast about this and I'm actually quite secretive about my MA training in my everyday life, but you wanted something resembling credentials so...I think if I'm considered that good I must have some 'understanding' of my art, whatever this elusive quality actually is.

So if that line 'just children playing martial artists' was directed at me, I think you can rescind it.

Now I'm out of here, listening to this thread is just driving my adrenaline levels up.

Greetings,

A mountain of credential are not needed but One Respectable Will Do!

Why is it people with NO CREDENTIALS are usually the ones who claim you don't need them?

While I'll agree some people are very good without credentials, they're few and far between and are the exception not the norm! I'm sure most of you are not the exceptions.

My comments are not directed to anyone, however "if the shoe fits wear it".

[American HKD]

Hello all,

I'll start, if that's OK?

I always wanted to get as close to the roots of the teaching of Choi Dojunim as possible - it was that simple for me. I have always felt that the closer one gets to the source, the purer the art becomes -

Philosophically, I train for two reasons - self improvement and self realization. Self improvement to gain better understanding of what I am capable of and self realization so that I can understand others through a more fully developed understanding of who I am as a person.

I have never really been that concerned about self defense - because the nature of the training makes that aspect automatic - and because I eventually grew to outsize most low-land gorillas, I don't get jumped too often.

I have also always felt that the nature of my training was the study of a single art - I have done several others in my early days, but found that the concentration on a single art was better for me as I could work on all the nuances and structures of the art without distraction as I see it.

I hope that from my training and experience, I can do two things:
1. Keep the teaching of Choi Dojunim alive for one more generation.
2. Impart to my students the clearest picture of the training that I have been lucky enough to receive.

Greetings,

I started this tread to have a good discussion, we quickly realized the people here could'nt handle anything other than thier own opinions backed up by limited, age and credentials.

Many have no respect or maturity (not age), little knowledge, little insight into anything but tell us all that training with resistance is all that matters and thier sport ring full of rules.

These guys don't have over all expirience, time in any sytems to make any points, so they all gang up on you with childish rants and baseless comments.

To top it they tell you, you dont know what your talking about.

Kevin I calling on all of them to show us thier credentials and accomplishments. They either got to put thier wares or stop act like Keyboard Masters cause real Masters thier not!

[iron_ox]

Greetings

I started this tread to have a good discussion, we quickly realized the people here could'nt handle anything other than thier opinions or the maturity (not age) to handle it.

Hello Stuart,

OK, I understand. Let's just get on with the discussion - I KNOW you have stuff to add other than the back and forth banter... :)

Does part of your training approach involve continued learning of technique all the way through the dan levels? When does "new technique" stop for you - as an add on question?

[American HKD]

Hello Stuart,

OK, I understand. Let's just get on with the discussion - I KNOW you have stuff to add other than the back and forth banter... :)

Does part of your training approach involve continued learning of technique all the way through the dan levels? When does "new technique" stop for you - as an add on question?

Kevin,

I respect what your trying to do so Ok, you have my respect.

For anyone else wanting to have a quality discussion I'm willing to do so with you.

I'm not sure what you mean can you re-phrase

[American HKD]

Well said, I couldnt put it any better.

Dear Mr. Spikedude,

What will you call your schools the "Spikedude of Academy of 7 Martial Arts" .

I see you trained in 7 systems so far at 19 years old.

Martial Arts Style:
Tang soo do, Hapikido, Grapling, Capoeria, Muay Thai, kung fu, and some judo

Are you a certified black belt & instructor in all these systems, if so please list your actual certificates or credentials because maybe I'm not giving you the proper respect.

[Scarlet Mist]

Dear Mr. Spikedude,

What will you call your schools the "Spikedude of Academy of 7 Martial Arts" .

I see you trained in 7 systems so far at 19 years old.

Martial Arts Style:
Tang soo do, Hapikido, Grapling, Capoeria, Muay Thai, kung fu, and some judo

Are you a certified black belt & instructor in all these systems, if so please list your actual certificates or credentials because maybe I'm not giving you the proper respect.

So he needs to have grades and certificates before you respect him?

Many systems do not use belts and certificates and the like, they just train (and compete, possibly).

I believe people like you who are hung up on certificates have gotten trapped in the politics that make training in MA so frustrating at times. It's sad, really.

And I wholeheartedly concur with Spikedude's sentiments and those of the cat he quoted.

[American HKD]

So he needs to have grades and certificates before you respect him?

Many systems do not use belts and certificates and the like, they just train (and compete, possibly).

I believe people like you who are hung up on certificates have gotten trapped in the politics that make training in MA so frustrating at times. It's sad, really.

And I wholeheartedly concur with Spikedude's sentiments and those of the cat he quoted.

Greetings,

I don't think you read the whole thread to what what led up to this.

After more than 25 year learning one art, I'd paid my dues no politics involved.

Many of the people here have no respect and also many claim you have to earn thier respect!

How can you earn respect here when people of limited backgrounds don't give the common courtesy and respect to seniors or anyone from the start???

The only respect I will give to certain people posting here is some sort of proof of accomplishment be it a Dan rank, sash, any type of grade as proof of some level of something other than mastering the MA keyboard.

When people realize respect is a two way street right from the start things will be better.

BTW I see you have little posted about yourself, rank, age, why not?
Kali has rank, Choy li fut has rank. so does HKD, TSD, Caperioa, Muay Thai ?

No politics what's your personal accomplishements, I would love to see you worked real hard and achieved some respectable level in the Arts?

Are you a Black Sash, A Guru in Escrima or what other form of recognition do you have from your teachers?

[Ikken Hisatsu]

actually there is no ranking in muay thai. some schools divide students into beginner or advanced but there is no belts except in the ring. and i am not sure about ranks in capoeira either. besides, who cares what belt you have, i care about how much someone knows. if you cut people off just because they dont have a rank, its going to be your loss.

[tekkengod]

Nice, I think you left out your rank & in what, Also your age.

Martial Arts Style:
Jujitsu - Tai Chi - Shotokan - Muay Thai
Biography:
I've been at it for 6 years, and i love every minute of it. all and any info is absorbed. I'm a real UFC wannabe. i love being the underdog.

In 6 years have you a black belt or equivilent in any of these Arts. Or are you still a Kyu grade?

Won any championships in competition amature or pro?

I'm a Black Belt in Jujitsu. i only briefly did Tai-chi. i just started shotokan and MT a few weeks ago. I'm 16 years old. I've won a few amature Jujitsu tournaments and i plan on competing in MT as soon as the opportunity arises.

[tekkengod]

So he needs to have grades and certificates before you respect him?

for once scarlet is right, Randy Couture has credentials, but he dosen't advertise them. does that mean you don't respect him or his abilites?

[American HKD]

I'm a Black Belt in Jujitsu. i only briefly did Tai-chi. i just started shotokan and MT a few weeks ago. I'm 16 years old. I've won a few amature Jujitsu tournaments and i plan on competing in MT as soon as the opportunity arises.

Thank You,

The truth is you have been one of the more respectful people here, Keep it Up! :)

What style of JJ do you do?

I did shotokan for 3 months before I started HKD, it's a nice Karate system, why did you pick Shotokan?

[American HKD]

for once scarlet is right, Randy Couture has credentials, but he dosen't advertise them. does that mean you don't respect him or his abilites?

Greetings,

Now we're getting some where.

I never came on this forum saying I'm this or that..

Peoples blatent disregard for common coutesy and respect led me down this road. Of course I respect Randy.

Don't mis the point of all my posts, its about equal respect for all from the start, no name calling and acting superior etc.

I don't give a rats behind what belt anyone is, but it's nice just to post your acturate credentials in your profile.

Lets grow up here men!

[Keljian]

Greetings,

After more than 25 year learning one art, I'd paid my dues no politics involved.

The only respect I will give to certain people posting here is some sort of proof of accomplishment be it a Dan rank, sash, any type of grade as proof of some level of something other than mastering the MA keyboard.

You want me to respect put up or shut up.


Mister Rosenburg,

I understand the time you've spent dedicated to your art. For me, I use the innocent till proven guilty theory of respect. That is, I respect a person a moderate amount until they give me due cause to give them more or less respect depending on their actions. Thus I judge them on their own merits.

In regards to my history, I've already posted a thread on such here:
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29903

So you could say I have trained for 3 years with a 12 month break in there due to injury. I'm 3rd kyu for reference (in Yoshinkan Aikido).

But respect itself is not anything to with grades in martial arts, I daresay my(brown) belt is nothing but something to keep my gi from coming open. I train to train, my belt, or my grade does not mean much to me. Sure it's a rough guage of achievement, but there is much scope for flexibility in the grade, there are some who are better than me at 3rd kyu, and some who are worse. I daresay some who are worse than me at 1st dan, and many who are better.

I should say I have the same respect for those who are 10th kyu on the mats and those who are 6th dan as they all are here to train and are all doing their best. Sensei is a teacher/instructor, he is no better or worse as a person. I respect him both as a teacher and as a person regardless.

I will not simply grovel because I am where I am in life, that's demeaning of me and doesn't credit my true worth. There is more to my life than Aikido, there is more to my life than MA, and there is more to me as a person than either aswell. This is not "self love" as someone else put it, this is being respectful of myself.

I wish you well

R.

[American HKD]

Mister Rosenburg,

I understand the time you've spent dedicated to your art. For me, I use the innocent till proven guilty theory of respect. That is, I respect a person a moderate amount until they give me due cause to give them more or less respect depending on their actions. Thus I judge them on their own merits.

I agree

In regards to my history, I've already posted a thread on such here:
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29903

So you could say I have trained for 3 years with a 12 month break in there due to injury. I'm 3rd kyu for reference (in Yoshinkan Aikido).

But respect itself is not anything to with grades in martial arts, I daresay my(brown) belt is nothing but something to keep my gi from coming open. I train to train, my belt, or my grade does not mean much to me. Sure it's a rough guage of achievement, but there is much scope for flexibility in the grade, there are some who are better than me at 3rd kyu, and some who are worse. I daresay some who are worse than me at 1st dan, and many who are better.

I agree

I should say I have the same respect for those who are 10th kyu on the mats and those who are 6th dan as they all are here to train and are all doing their best. Sensei is a teacher/instructor, he is no better or worse as a person. I respect him both as a teacher and as a person regardless.

I agree

I will not simply grovel because I am where I am in life, that's demeaning of me and doesn't credit my true worth. There is more to my life than Aikido, there is more to my life than MA, and there is more to me as a person than either aswell. This is not "self love" as someone else put it, this is being respectful of myself.

Now were talking

This thread went down hill so fast into major BS and lack of courtesy.

I don't care about belts, training is more important, but courtesy and respect in the Arts is even more important.

We went down this long road of all the BS just to get to the points I was making early on in this thread, but no one wanted to hear it and kept acting like asses.

I have no hard feeling towards you.

[tekkengod]

Thank You,

The truth is you have been one of the more respectful people here, Keep it Up! :)

What style of JJ do you do?

I did shotokan for 3 months before I started HKD, it's a nice Karate system, why did you pick Shotokan?

I did Waboku jujitsu.

i've heard nice things about Shotokan, and so far the classes are holding up. i choose shotokan because it and MT are teh only things around here that aren't TKD, granted had other opportunities been available, i would more than likely have choosen the it anyway.

[tekkengod]

Peoples blatent disregard for common coutesy and respect led me down this road. Of course I respect Randy.

I don't give a rats behind what belt anyone is, but it's nice just to post your acturate credentials in your profile.

ok thats the answer i was looking for.

[American HKD]

actually there is no ranking in muay thai. some schools divide students into beginner or advanced but there is no belts except in the ring. and i am not sure about ranks in capoeira either. besides, who cares what belt you have, i care about how much someone knows. if you cut people off just because they dont have a rank, its going to be your loss.

Greetings,

No I don't care about rank read my last few posts.

I trained at a Kali school that had Capoeira and they had belt ranks or more acturately rope ranks because they wore some kind of training pants and a colored rope belt.

[tekkengod]

I don't care about belts, training is more important, but courtesy and respect in the Arts is even more important.

wow, i'm gonna have to disagree with you on that one. i know i use the UFC as alot of examples, but i think that usually best illustrates my point.

Rhetorical Question:
what is more important?
A) That Randy Couture is a respectful, well mannered fighter who congragulates his opponents and wishes them the best in their future, even after very clearly beating them.

or.

B) That he can beat the hell out of his opponents.

i don' need to answer this for you :rolleyes: ........

[American HKD]

wow, i'm gonna have to disagree with you on that one. i know i use the UFC as alot of examples, but i think that usually best illustrates my point.

Rhetorical Question:
what is more important?
A) That Randy Couture is a respectful, well mannered fighter who congragulates his opponents and wishes them the best in their future, even after very clearly beating them.

or.

B) That he can beat the hell out of his opponents.

i don' need to answer this for you :rolleyes: ........


Greetings,

The UFC is a sport and Randy is very sportsman like.

In the street he might not thank them so fast.

However in HKD, Ji Han Jae teaches us don't break someones arm if you don't have to. Why make a life long enemy out of another man, ruin his ability or use od a limb for life, if you can control the situation and let him go you might change the person.

You never know?

[tekkengod]

good point, but with that being said, is that a risk you're willing to take, i'll much rather take my chances at changing his face and his skeletal structure as opposed to his mindset or thinking process.

[tekkengod]

secondly, in the UFC that isn't really an option, the whole point is to hurt the guy, thats the only point i was making was that more often than not ability is more important than courtesy. give the enemy NO advantage, make them work to survive.

[American HKD]

good point, but with that being said, is that a risk you're willing to take, i'll much rather take my chances at changing his face and his skeletal structure as opposed to his mindset or thinking process.


Good questions it depends on many factors but I mean the street not the UFC. In trad HKD we only train for the street.

How good you are or confident?
How serious is the threat?
How fast you can gain control?
How fast he realizes is he's the one who might get hurt?

I personally would try to take in all these factors as fast as possible and decide to go for the kill, just hurt him or get away?

[tekkengod]

well if there was a weapon involved certainly my first idea would be to get away. but that is another story. those are all legitimate factors to account for. the real question is
1. will you have the time to think, contemplate and act upon the variables of those factors.
2. given a combination of a strong sense of urgency, primal insticts and adrenaline are you even really going to contemplate these factors? now you might say something along the lines of "yes, i keep cool" but i have to say that in a real life situation when adrenaline is pumping and you are honestly and truly in fear of losing your life, the chances of you doing so are VERY slim.

[American HKD]

well if there was a weapon involved certainly my first idea would be to get away. but that is another story. those are all legitimate factors to account for. the real question is
1. will you have the time to think, contemplate and act upon the variables of those factors.
2. given a combination of a strong sense of urgency, primal insticts and adrenaline are you even really going to contemplate these factors? now you might say something along the lines of "yes, i keep cool" but i have to say that in a real life situation when adrenaline is pumping and you are honestly and truly in fear of losing your life, the chances of you doing so are VERY slim.


Never really know til it happens hopefully not, but if you train hard and in the right way the odds are way in your favor hand to hand.

Empty against a blade, I would get out or find an equallizier any will due unless you see your chance and go for it.

No easy answer

[tekkengod]

Never really know til it happens hopefully not, but if you train hard and in the right way the odds are way in your favor hand to hand.

thats why i started MA to begin with.

[NaughtyKnight]

Greetings,

Why is it that many of you young gentleman don't post the following on your profiles here at the forum.

1. age: 19
2. time in x system or systems: 1yr TKD, 6months JKD
3. rank in any of the systems: Green Belt TKD
4. Who your Instructors are: Grand Master Jay Seo, Gary James
5. other important info on your MA background: I've used it numerous times in "real life".

I know many of you are "Great Masters of the Keyboard", so no need to post your credentials here.

I can't wait to read all about all of your accomplishments and expiriences off the Keyboard.

Yeh ok man, we are all masters of the Keyboard.

I dont remember even debating anything to do with ma with you. I was telling you that you are discriminating against younger people than yourself is stupid. I dont need a 6th dan (your rank) in HKD to know that, I was taught manners when I was born.

Get off your high horse and maybe you might get some respect from me, you started by attacking shotokan, whom I defended as your attack was the result of agesim.

[Jungkihapkido]

I have always believed the further along you train in MA (not MS) you see that the basic principles of generating power are the same. MA styles may focus on striking & kicking, throwing, joint locking or a combination. This is why those that train in one style for a long period(15 - 40 years) realize that the priciples are most often very close. If they are not then I would be a little leary.

Just some thoughts.

[NaughtyKnight]

All martial arts are sports, unless practised for use on the battle field by a soldier. If someone asks what sport you do, you tell them you do martial arts. It is not some mythical magical thing that as you progress you become a better person than someone else. This isn't fudal Japan, you arent based on in life by what rank you are in martial arts, rank means absoultly nothing in my (and alot of others) book, it is based on skill.

Martial arts doesnt take years to learn, I have not seen, in my 1.5yrs, any secret that I cant assertain, no technique that will take me 20yrs to master. The reason it takes awhile to learn to actually fight, is because its complely against what your bodies programed to do. We are designed to flail madely at our attacker and run, standing there trading blows takes alot or mental conditioning. If it took aslong as people like you believe, then why are the best martial artists in their 20s-30s? Its because its like any sport.

If it takes you 20 ys to learn a martial art and be good enough to win with it, then I must be well ahead of the learning curve, aswell as alot or martial artist i know.

[American HKD]

Yeh ok man, we are all masters of the Keyboard.

I dont remember even debating anything to do with ma with you. I was telling you that you are discriminating against younger people than yourself is stupid. I dont need a 6th dan (your rank) in HKD to know that, I was taught manners when I was born.

Get off your high horse and maybe you might get some respect from me, you started by attacking shotokan, whom I defended as your attack was the result of agesim.

Greetings,

Maybe I mis-understood you before. I did admit I got caught in the moment a couple of times.

But what I do have is the right like everyone else here or anywhere to be spoken to with manors, wheather you agree or disagree.

Other than that respect is a 2 way street, you can have mine, now give me yours.

[American HKD]

All martial arts are sports, unless practised for use on the battle field by a soldier. If someone asks what sport you do, you tell them you do martial arts. It is not some mythical magical thing that as you progress you become a better person than someone else. This isn't fudal Japan, you arent based on in life by what rank you are in martial arts, rank means absoultly nothing in my (and alot of others) book, it is based on skill.

Martial arts doesnt take years to learn, I have not seen, in my 1.5yrs, any secret that I cant assertain, no technique that will take me 20yrs to master. The reason it takes awhile to learn to actually fight, is because its complely against what your bodies programed to do. We are designed to flail madely at our attacker and run, standing there trading blows takes alot or mental conditioning. If it took aslong as people like you believe, then why are the best martial artists in their 20s-30s? Its because its like any sport.

If it takes you 20 ys to learn a martial art and be good enough to win with it, then I must be well ahead of the learning curve, aswell as alot or martial artist i know.

Greetings,

Respectfully, if you don't think MA takes years to master your training with the wrong people. Why because if your teacher does'nt impress you enough with thier expertise, skill and knowledge somethings wrong.

Example BJJ take 8-10 years to BB, Hapkido 4-5 years. To go through a system like HKD with over 1000 techs and many 100s of variations, weapons, ki developement etc. takes about 15 years to be a 4th dan which is considered in our system the lowest level of mastery.

So I don't understand you comments at all or after just 1.5 years in the arts you just dont get it yet?

[Jungkihapkido]

All martial arts are sports, unless practised for use on the battle field by a soldier. If someone asks what sport you do, you tell them you do martial arts. It is not some mythical magical thing that as you progress you become a better person than someone else. This isn't fudal Japan, you arent based on in life by what rank you are in martial arts, rank means absoultly nothing in my (and alot of others) book, it is based on skill.

Martial arts doesnt take years to learn, I have not seen, in my 1.5yrs, any secret that I cant assertain, no technique that will take me 20yrs to master. The reason it takes awhile to learn to actually fight, is because its complely against what your bodies programed to do. We are designed to flail madely at our attacker and run, standing there trading blows takes alot or mental conditioning. If it took aslong as people like you believe, then why are the best martial artists in their 20s-30s? Its because its like any sport.

Those that are in their 20s & 30s may be stronger but by no means are they better than say a person who has had a compotant teacher and has trained for 15 - 40 years +. The way they do things will be a little different due to an aging body. The mind is hopefully our best weapon. Sports have rules fighting does not!

If it takes you 20 ys to learn a martial art and be good enough to win with it, then I must be well ahead of the learning curve, aswell as alot or martial artist i know.

I disagree, The best martial artists are 50+ years. You may not have seen them yet but these are the people that make it look easy and effortless when dealing with an attack. The thing you need to keep in mind is that there are many different levels of learning. When you start training you learn basic movement then as you continue to learn you learn the finer points of technique that make it easy and effortless

[NaughtyKnight]

Greetings,

Maybe I mis-understood you before. I did admit I got caught in the moment a couple of times.

But what I do have is the right like everyone else here or anywhere to be spoken to with manors, wheather you agree or disagree.

Other than that respect is a 2 way street, you can have mine, now give me yours.

You have my respect.

I appologise also, i got very caught in the moment, but I do love a good debate.

[NaughtyKnight]

Perhaps I worded myself wrongly. When I say the "best", im takling about on a competitive level. How else are you supposed to discern skill?

Also when I said it takes a few years to learn, I was refering to being able compete and become an effective fighter, learning the complete style would of course take years and years.

[American HKD]

You have my respect.

I appologise also, i got very caught in the moment, but I do love a good debate.

Debates are what we're all here for more or less, lets keep'em friendly

[American HKD]

Perhaps I worded myself wrongly. When I say the "best", im takling about on a competitive level. How else are you supposed to discern skill?

Also when I said it takes a few years to learn, I was refering to being able compete and become an effective fighter, learning the complete style would of course take years and years.

Greetings,

Most competitors are in thier 20's sometimes early 30's. That's how long the human body can handle the stress i.e. nature.

MA goes beyond the mire physical realm just physical strenght, the seasoned Masters have way more to offer you than a 20/30 year old does. Masters know how to use very very little force and achive the same results as men in thier 20's using all thier strenght.

I said way back in this thread expirience is one of the best teachers, age brings refinement, when the young man can compete anymore should he shoot himself because MA life is over?

No way it's only just starting now you can focus on the perfection of the systems other higher aspects of MA it's all there, with the right teacher.

You will no get this out of "sports systems" but they're in many trad MA systems like Hapkido.

That in a nut shell is what young men don't see, that's inexpirience and only seeing what's aparrent right now, no insight, no time in the arts, and so on.

Not a put down, not a high horse, just truth.

[NaughtyKnight]

See here is the problem. You are presupposing that I do not understand the different interpretations of Martial Arts. I do, however my own personal belief is different compared with yours. I do martial arts for self defence and sport, for me to compete I do not need to learn a complete style to do that. In fact, I study many techniques, from may different styles.

My opinon is not based on the ineptitude of my youth and lack of experience, but rather from what I feel martial arts is to me.

As far as experience is concerned, I may be young, but I have had a hell of alot of experience packed into my short and violent life.

[tekkengod]

I disagree, The best martial artists are 50+ years. You may not have seen them yet but these are the people that make it look easy and effortless when dealing with an attack. The thing you need to keep in mind is that there are many different levels of learning. When you start training you learn basic movement then as you continue to learn you learn the finer points of technique that make it easy and effortless

no, the best martial artists in the world and the best fighters in the world are in their 20's 30's, they are intelligent enough to retain knowladge and use it successfully. youthful enough to train relistically and efficently with a realistic goal in mind. they are not hung up on mastering their art if they feel what they know is enough to get them by.
Randy Couture=41
Ken Shamrock=41 {these 2 are exceptions and amazingly gifted athletes who defy all limitations.

Chuck Liddle
Sakuraba
Wandy
matt lindland
a few of the gracies
Frank Mir
Tito Ortiz

all outstanding MAists and excellent fighters.
who are, intheir 20s and 30s.

[American HKD]

See here is the problem. You are presupposing that I do not understand the different interpretations of Martial Arts. I do, however my own personal belief is different compared with yours. I do martial arts for self defence and sport, for me to compete I do not need to learn a complete style to do that. In fact, I study many techniques, from may different styles.

My opinon is not based on the ineptitude of my youth and lack of experience, but rather from what I feel martial arts is to me.

As far as experience is concerned, I may be young, but I have had a hell of alot of experience packed into my short and violent life.

Greetings

I see your points.

Ours is from trad. MA, in that sense young or less than 10 years in a system is automatically inexpirieced. And in my world it's 100% true.

In yours if you compete your totally in regardless

I too do it for self defense or street, self perfection mind & body, but not sport competition.

[Thomas]

Sorry... I've been away for a few days... the route this thread has taken is pretty bizarre. I like a lot of the questions that have come up and hope people can get on with the difscussion and move past the nitpicking and being offended. It'd be nice to see the little annoyances dropped and the issues discussed.


Iron_Ox: Great questions... I hope I can try to add my personal opinions on them...

1. What are the philosophical tenets behind YOUR training (we are in the Hapkido forum - so PRIMARILY Hapkido) and what do you hope to accomplish from your training?

For me there are multiple levels.
1. On the barest, most basic level is to learn good, applicable self defence that will work in whatever situation I may end up in. Within the framework of self defence, it is my goal to learn skills and techniques that I can use to defend myself and my loved ones using the most appropriate levels of force as necessary.
1B. On that same issue, I do not learn them for competition or for showing off my skills or for employing the physical ones often. I learn the skills of avoidance and awareness to prevent having to use my physical skills. So, at my age and skill level, I do not expect that I would be overly successful in a professional fight beyond the real key philosphical point: I would survive. I don't train to win matches, I train to learn how to survive and escape... and I will use anything I need to do that (including weapons, "dirty" tactics, etc.)
2. Beyond that, I enjoy the health and fitness that the training entails. I enjoy the people I work with and learn from/share with/teach to/spend time with in Hapkido.
3. I also want to learn... and a traditional system like Hapkido contains so much stuff that I know I will not learn and master everything in it during the course of my life! But, I will try to teach my stduents as best I can and give them a headstart on exploring the art for the rest of their lives.

2. Because BJJ is now so often used as an add-on to Hapkido - or even a component of some schools of Hapkido - (I believe in Combat Hapkido ((Right, Thomas?)) ) what are the philosophical tenets behind this singularly or as an add-on component and what do you hope to accomplish from your training? And I am not for one moment suggesting here that BJJ does not stand on its own - but it is often sighted as an add on element.

Combat Hapkido does use "BJJ" as an add-on. While Hapkido contains a good system of ground grappling, often in schools it may get overlooked at lower levels. Also, with the popularity of the UFC and grappling schools, we feel that there is a greater chance of running into someone with decent grappling skills on the street. To reinforce what we had in Hapkido, we went to the "experts", i.e. BJJ, to help build our grappling program (people like Pedro Rodriguez and Carlson Gracie). The BJJ techniques fit very nicely within the concepts of Hapkido (and vice versa) and therefore makes for smooth transitions between Hapkido and BJJ techniques.
Does part of your training approach involve continued learning of technique all the way through the dan levels? When does "new technique" stop for you - as an add on question?
It's really neat, but many of the "new" dan techniques at higher levels are simpler and more streamlined than the earlier ones. I don't learn a lot of completely new techniques nowadays, but I learn new entries and simpler applications... "simpler" because with the concepts and basics firmly in place, the more "advanced" stuff is easier now! (Also, "ki" development mkaes so much stuff much easier at higher levels).

[Scarlet Mist]

BTW I see you have little posted about yourself, rank, age, why not?
Kali has rank, Choy li fut has rank. so does HKD, TSD, Caperioa, Muay Thai ?

No politics what's your personal accomplishements, I would love to see you worked real hard and achieved some respectable level in the Arts?

Are you a Black Sash, A Guru in Escrima or what other form of recognition do you have from your teachers?

I decided to remove my age from my profile because idiots were getting caught up on it. "You'll understand when you're older". I have a rank in CLF, but I do not think it is important or says anything about my skill because I know people of similar or higher rank who simply don't deserve it.

As for Eskrima - we have no rank. We hit each other with sticks, and we spar a lot. That's about it. No crap, just hitting each other a whole lot.

[American HKD]

no, the best martial artists in the world and the best fighters in the world are in their 20's 30's, they are intelligent enough to retain knowladge and use it successfully. youthful enough to train relistically and efficently with a realistic goal in mind. they are not hung up on mastering their art if they feel what they know is enough to get them by.
Randy Couture=41
Ken Shamrock=41 {these 2 are exceptions and amazingly gifted athletes who defy all limitations.

Chuck Liddle
Sakuraba
Wandy
matt lindland
a few of the gracies
Frank Mir
Tito Ortiz

all outstanding MAists and excellent fighters.
who are, intheir 20s and 30s.

Greetings,

You're going back the the same old agruements again, and I summit that you're looking at it from only ONE angle only.

1. They're presumably the best fighters in the world why (cause the top traditional masters in the world don't fight for sport so you don't know!)

2. What I call "real MA" don't limit a fight to only empty hands, with rules, anything goes weapons, tricks, anything.

3. Against multiple attackers the stratagies changes totally and the ring folks don't train for that.

So can only conclude the people you mention are the best known fighters in a Ring Match that's all!

[American HKD]

I decided to remove my age from my profile because idiots were getting caught up on it. "You'll understand when you're older". I have a rank in CLF, but I do not think it is important or says anything about my skill because I know people of similar or higher rank who simply don't deserve it.

As for Eskrima - we have no rank. We hit each other with sticks, and we spar a lot. That's about it. No crap, just hitting each other a whole lot.

I'm no kali expert but I have two good years in Pekiti Tirsia, they have levels of some sort not belts as in karate.

How long are you into Escrima?

[shotokanwarrior]

I decided to remove my age from my profile because idiots were getting caught up on it. "You'll understand when you're older".

Good idea, I'm gonna do that too. Then maybe some people who will remain nameless will listen to my points and not my age.

[Scarlet Mist]

I'm no kali expert but I have two good years in Pekiti Tirsia, they have levels of some sort not belts as in karate.

How long are you into Escrima?

About 2 years. Again, we have not belts. Belts are for holding up your pants and tying people up.

[American HKD]

Greetings,

Thomas,

I would'nt call Trad. HKD ground grappling it's not, I would call it ground defenses, which could lead into ground sparring and in my school it's a far cry from grappling, I would call it "ground fighting".

In the Ground fighting we use, locks, off balances, sweeps, chokes, strikes, nerve attacks, kicks, ect. hapkido style not judo or Bjj style.

Exactly how does C.H. fit BJJ into the Hapkido curriculum?

What's taught 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc, and how far does it go, meaning are there a certain amount of tech you learn per belt rank?

And do you get belts as in BJJ, blue, purple, or the only belt you get is from C.H. etc.

Per your last post, I think some people including myself got carried away and lost common courtesy on this board, I see you as a leader on this board you should try to stress the importance of civil discussions.

I for one will watch what I say and how I say it.

[American HKD]

Good idea, I'm gonna do that too. Then maybe some people who will remain nameless will listen to my points and not my age.

Some peoples comments and expirience give away thier age!

[American HKD]

About 2 years. Again, we have not belts. Belts are for holding up your pants and tying people up.

See were probably around the same level in Kali, what else do you do?

[tekkengod]

Greetings,3. Against multiple attackers the stratagies changes totally and the ring folks don't train for that.

actually alot of them do train for multiple opponents, alot of coaches require it, but i'll give you that, many do not train for multiples. but then again, if there are multiples i enjoy the nike defense.

[American HKD]

actually alot of them do train for multiple opponents, alot of coaches require it, but i'll give you that, many do not train for multiples. but then again, if there are multiples i enjoy the nike defense.


Greetings,

Maybe they do but it would'nt work in the ring. The entire fight strategy would change and move away from grappling to stand up at least until one guys down for good?

Frankly I admire the stratagy of the Ninja more than any other group of combat fighters in history. They use anything thats works to obtain they objective, tricks, weapons, disguises, great stratagies. I personaly would follow thier ideas.

The bottom line for me is your 1000 times more likey to get in a fight that requires more than just one on one ring skills. To me that logic tells me what I should be doing to protect myself and what kind of training I should do.