How is kembangan actually used?

[RedBagani]

Hi, I am new here and checked if anyone was discussing the practical application of kembangan in Silat. I could not find any. I did a bit of Silat and Kuntao, and have raised the question quite often even among other Silat stylists, but have not found an adequate answer. The answers I got were varied - it is used as an artistic expression, as a ritual or symbol for Silat, a trademark move for a particular style, a way to score points with the judges in sports silat, a method of setting up attacks/defenses, weaving of spells and throwing of malicous energy at an opponent. I find the answers inadequate because in many other martial arts, such movements are not used to the extent that Silat practitioners do the Kembangan. I would like to know if anyone of you out there has other ideas. If possible, I would like the question viewed from a PRACTICAL COMBAT APPLICATION, although it would still be interesting how it can be answered from other points of view.

[Wali]

Hi, I am new here and checked if anyone was discussing the practical application of kembangan in Silat. I could not find any. I did a bit of Silat and Kuntao, and have raised the question quite often even among other Silat stylists, but have not found an adequate answer. The answers I got were varied - it is used as an artistic expression, as a ritual or symbol for Silat, a trademark move for a particular style, a way to score points with the judges in sports silat, a method of setting up attacks/defenses, weaving of spells and throwing of malicous energy at an opponent. I find the answers inadequate because in many other martial arts, such movements are not used to the extent that Silat practitioners do the Kembangan. I would like to know if anyone of you out there has other ideas. If possible, I would like the question viewed from a PRACTICAL COMBAT APPLICATION, although it would still be interesting how it can be answered from other points of view.
Hi RebBagani,

The Kembagang is CRUCIAL for anyone learning silat. The problem is that many schools don't have a proper understanding of this aspect of the art.

At it's essence, the Kembagang is the place where you bring all your silat together. A good silat man will be able to determine what another really knows by observing their kembangan.

The Kembangan also raises a persons awareness, and if properly trained, greatly enhances peripheral perception, inreasing the effectiveness of fighting multiple opponents. It also helps with the alignment of the body, ensuring that correct posture and movement are perfected.

On a more spiritual level, it enables us to develop a deeper connection with the Creator, fellow man and Mother Earth. It enhances our perception of everything around us, and allows us to discern things better.

There is a lot more to the Kembagang than just flowery, dancy movements, but you need to go to a teacher that really knows it.

I have given you an extremelly basic explanation, as there is a lot more to it, but it's something that you are better of experiencing rather than reading about.

I hope this clears out a few misconceptions.

Kind regards,
Wali

[RedBagani]

Thanks for the info, Wali.
Most guys see Kembangan as a kind of Kata or Form but it is actually quite different in use and intention. Before fighting an opponent, I noticed that the pesilat makes a 'flowery' move before he engages. In fact the term used to describe this movement is "Buka Bunga", translated as "The Opening of the Flower". In sports silat, points are even given for doing this. My concern is, why is this movement crucial in an actual fight? Other martial arts style that do Kata don't have this pre-fight component. They go straight to the point. The only guys I see doing a similar "Buka Bunga" are actors in Kung Fu movies. I've asked different people about this, including high ranking masters. I've always found counter-arguments for the explanations, specially when I look at the question from a purely combat point of view. After more than 2 years of doing silat and kuntao, I still don't fully get it!! Have you?

Hi RebBagani,

The Kembagang is CRUCIAL for anyone learning silat. The problem is that many schools don't have a proper understanding of this aspect of the art.

At it's essence, the Kembagang is the place where you bring all your silat together. A good silat man will be able to determine what another really knows by observing their kembangan.

The Kembangan also raises a persons awareness, and if properly trained, greatly enhances peripheral perception, inreasing the effectiveness of fighting multiple opponents. It also helps with the alignment of the body, ensuring that correct posture and movement are perfected.

On a more spiritual level, it enables us to develop a deeper connection with the Creator, fellow man and Mother Earth. It enhances our perception of everything around us, and allows us to discern things better.

There is a lot more to the Kembagang than just flowery, dancy movements, but you need to go to a teacher that really knows it.

I have given you an extremelly basic explanation, as there is a lot more to it, but it's something that you are better of experiencing rather than reading about.

I hope this clears out a few misconceptions.

Kind regards,
Wali

[Wali]

Thanks for the info, Wali.
Most guys see Kembangan as a kind of Kata or Form but it is actually quite different in use and intention. Before fighting an opponent, I noticed that the pesilat makes a 'flowery' move before he engages. In fact the term used to describe this movement is "Buka Bunga", translated as "The Opening of the Flower". In sports silat, points are even given for doing this. My concern is, why is this movement crucial in an actual fight? Other martial arts style that do Kata don't have this pre-fight component. They go straight to the point. The only guys I see doing a similar "Buka Bunga" are actors in Kung Fu movies. I've asked different people about this, including high ranking masters. I've always found counter-arguments for the explanations, specially when I look at the question from a purely combat point of view. After more than 2 years of doing silat and kuntao, I still don't fully get it!! Have you?
To be quite honest, I find the silat done at tournaments embarrasing to silat. The students cannot possibly know what they are doing, because the teacher themselves don't know what they are doing.

I have witnessed silat tournaments where the players begin with flowery movements, yet when the fight starts, they drop it all, and the fight resembles a TKD ot Karate fight, then when it is over, the flowery movements return. In short, a total farce.

The Kembangan, as I have said, is primarily there to deepen your connection with the Creator. It brings out the beauty on the inside, and changes the way you move and feel. It also deepens you connection with your fellow man, and helps you to discern their intention, making it far easier to determine what they are going to do. This has ovious fighting advantages!

It is different to Kata, in the sense that the movements aren't fixed, and 2 kembagangs should never look the same. If someone has said that they are the equivalent, then they don't know kembagang, and have only a very limited knowledge of real silat.

To answer your question, once the Kembangan is learnt, you internalise it. By this I mean that it becomes a state of awareness as oppossed to the physical movements. Most people think it's just the flowery movements, and try to mimick the moves when in combat, not understanding the deeper aspects I mentioned to you.

I would suggest you find a teacher that can answer all your questions, as this is the most beautiful, yet deadly part of traditional Pencak Silat. If you ever find yourself in London, visit our academy on a Wednesday evening, when we do a Kembagang night.

Regards
Wali

[RedBagani]

Hello Wali,
Thanks for inviting me to come over to your gym but right now that is impossible; I live more than a thousand miles away. Ironic, isn't it, that the only guy who answered my query isn't from one of the places where Silat originated? The reason why I posted my query in the Beginners Section is because I want to view it from a fresh perspective. Until I have solved the riddle of Kembangan, I will consider myself a beginner. Silat is such a profound art people tend to misunderstand it. Where i am, people have given different answers, none of which I have found to be truly satisfactory. Only someone who had a good understanding of Silat could have bothered to answer my question. It is true about what you said, Silat has to be encountered first hand in order to be understood. It cannot be mastered simply through discussion.

[krys]

Hmm...

Kembangan or flower dance is not really my top priority. It is part of our silat, but I don't believe you really need it for fighting. I don't say it is useless, actually there are some benefits (internalising things, awareness, tricking your opponent), but in my oppinion these skills can be trained in more efficient ways....Peoples seldom show their silat in the Philippines but if they decide to teach you, you'll learn the real thing, direct and brutal but without all the flowers and hidden movements....

I prefer spending my time on other aspects of the art that I find more usefull than Kembangan. To me sharpening the bolo comes before learning how to dance....and the bolo never can be sharp enough.

I always was attracted by arts using economy of motion and natural movements, attacks that can be launched quickly without showing my intentions, crash in as soon as possible and destroy....I don't believe in showing my opponent I know Silat, or the kind of Silat I practice. Ideally attack before he notices it and finish the fight before he realizes what happens, in case of a duel or the fight is already engaged let him believe I practice another art until it is too late....


Other martial arts style that do Kata don't have this pre-fight component. They go straight to the point.

The good systems I've seen go straight to the point, but many silat systems became overstylised, lost touch with real fighting because of commercialism, sport, cultural reasons, secrecy... Nowadays you will see lots of systems spending most of their students time on dancing, prearanged fighting, countering other silat systems or memorizing overcomplicated combinations of techniques....this isn't a very effficient way to prepare for the real world.....

[Wali]

Hmm...

Kembangan or flower dance is not really my top priority. It is part of our silat, but I don't believe you really need it for fighting. I don't say it is useless, actually there are some benefits (internalising things, awareness, tricking your opponent), but in my oppinion these skills can be trained in more efficient ways....Peoples seldom show their silat in the Philippines but if they decide to teach you, you'll learn the real thing, direct and brutal but without all the flowers and hidden movements....

I prefer spending my time on other aspects of the art that I find more usefull than Kembangan. To me sharpening the bolo comes before learning how to dance....and the bolo never can be sharp enough.

I always was attracted by arts using economy of motion and natural movements, attacks that can be launched quickly without showing my intentions, crash in as soon as possible and destroy....I don't believe in showing my opponent I know Silat, or the kind of Silat I practice. Ideally attack before he notices it and finish the fight before he realizes what happens, in case of a duel or the fight is already engaged let him believe I practice another art until it is too late....




The good systems I've seen go straight to the point, but many silat systems became overstylised, lost touch with real fighting because of commercialism, sport, cultural reasons, secrecy... Nowadays you will see lots of systems spending most of their students time on dancing, prearanged fighting, countering other silat systems or memorizing overcomplicated combinations of techniques....this isn't a very effficient way to prepare for the real world.....
It seems that you don't understand the Kembangang at all. It doesn't REPLACE the brutal aspect of Silat, but enhances it.

It helps deepen your connection with the Creator, and fellow man. I can understaqnd why you say what you say. It is where you are at this present moment.

Good luck with your training.
Wali

[RedBagani]

It seems that you don't understand the Kembangang at all. It doesn't REPLACE the brutal aspect of Silat, but enhances it.

It helps deepen your connection with the Creator, and fellow man. I can understaqnd why you say what you say. It is where you are at this present moment.

Good luck with your training.
Wali

Hah! It's good another guy has joined us in our discussion on this mystifying part of Silat, Wali. i hope this will lead somewhere. Your statement " ...you don't understand the Kembangan at all..." seems to summarize the feelings and thoughts of a lot of silat practitioners. Honestly, very few of us have really grasped the meaning. I just hope that you could be more technical in your answers, like at what range or phase of the fight can anyone put in the "bunga"? What do you think of the stilted poses or "sikap" that pesilat do? What do you think of the fights between pesilat, for example the tournament that took place in UK last year where there were a lot of international participants? I understand your group didn't join the tournament. How would your players have fought differently? Better yet, is it possible to show a video clip of you guys free sparring? Pls understand I am not here to pt anyone ina bad light, but I believe anyone who TALKS must show he can do the WALK. I have seen pesilat fight against each other, as well as against other stylists. It would be very helpful for my understanding if I could see how you guys spar with one another and against other stylists. Thanks.

[Crucible]

Good Questions. I'll be able to write on this more later. Moderator, perhaps we should move this to the silat section? I know Redbagani posted here in the interest of asking with beginners eyes, but I think it would get more notice from pesilats in the silat section. Cheers.

[chib]

Hi guys
do all forms of silat use Kembagang? How does it help you connect at a deeper level, where can i read more about it?

[Crucible]

Hi guys
do all forms of silat use Kembagang? How does it help you connect at a deeper level, where can i read more about it?
Chib, here's some articles for you
http://www.buktinegara.com/kembangan.html
http://www.combat-silat.net/silatnow/archives/bunga.asp
Do all forms of silat use kembangan? I think there's so many forms of silat we will probably never be able to say what all of them have, but yes, generally speaking its common to many forms of silat.

[Crucible]

So coming primarily from a weapons background most of my time in this area has been not emptyhand but live sundang. With my teacher it was emptyhand but due to distance I do whats presently available inbetween visits.
The answers I got were varied - it is used as an artistic expression, as a ritual or symbol for Silat, a trademark move for a particular style, a way to score points with the judges in sports silat, a method of setting up attacks/defenses, weaving of spells and throwing of malicous energy at an opponent. .I've heard many of these things as well. I remember being told that when two pesilats meet, they wont ask each other to fight, but they'll ask to see each other dance, and just by the movements they'll already know how good the other is. I sometimes think of the movements in kembangan as part of what makes silat distinctly a Malay art. I think of as the movments contained within kembangan as setups showing fake openings, over-telegraphing a movement, and attacking by drawing. I've almost walked into the piont of a live blade on several occasions because they showed a fake opening. I also agree with everything written in the previous posts.
I find the answers inadequate because in many other martial arts, such movements are not used to the extent that Silat practitioners do the Kembangan. I actually disagree, I had such movements applied on me and seen and heard of them in other MAs. I've seen them applied by a high level Gao style Bagua guy, I've heard of it done by boxers(doing an overt movement with one hand, to draw attention away from the other) I've seen it done on systema footage by Vladmir Vasilev, I've had it done on me by Andy Abrahim and Sunny Umpad(the old I'm going to shake your hand with my empty hand and stab you with the other, or "look its an airplane" nope an abanico :rolleyes: ) and its subtle part of capoeria. My brother used to call them "bugsbunny tricks".


After more than 2 years of doing silat and kuntao, I still don't fully get it!! Have you?hmmmm, Personally I know I have much to learn, so whatever I say is based on todays understanding. I'm sure I'll get to deeper and deeper levels of understanding as the years go by.

[Buddy]

Crucible,
I'm betting you study with Bernie L.

[Crucible]

Hi Buddy,
You must be Buddy T. I've checked out your website before and seen you in the Ring of Fire pictures and in the back of Pak Vic's book. Bernie's a good friend, I actually introduced him to my silat instructor in the late 90's. I did nei gong and privates with him for about 2-3 years. Good guy, wonderful understanding of the human body, fun at parties. The Bagua person I was refering to above actually is Eric Luo. he was once demonstrating how bagua movements are used to open up a persons guard, "why do you think we do all these funny movements" he said. Actually I noticed the fighting guard he uses in close was lower, close-more like my silat gurus posture or a boxer than the extended arm postures he was using to draw a reaction.

[Crucible]

Buddy, your a sera guy, what your take on kembangan?

[RedBagani]

[QUOTE=Crucible]I've heard many of these things as well. I remember being told that when two pesilats meet, they wont ask each other to fight, but they'll ask to see each other dance, and just by the movements they'll already know how good the other is. I sometimes think of the movements in kembangan as part of what makes silat distinctly a Malay art. I think of as the movments contained within kembangan as setups showing fake openings, over-telegraphing a movement, and attacking by drawing. I've almost walked into the piont of a live blade on several occasions because they showed a fake opening. I also agree with everything written in the previous posts. I actually disagree, I had such movements applied on me and seen and heard of them in other MAs. I've seen them applied by a high level Gao style Bagua guy, I've heard of it done by boxers(doing an overt movement with one hand, to draw attention away from the other) I've seen it done on systema footage by Vladmir Vasilev, I've had it done on me by Andy Abrahim and Sunny Umpad(the old I'm going to shake your hand with my empty hand and stab you with the other, or "look its an airplane" nope an abanico :rolleyes: ) and its subtle part of capoeria. My brother used to call them "bugsbunny tricks". QUOTE]
Thanks guys for joining in the discussion. I also ahve to agree with Crucible that perhaps it is time to move this to the Silat section instead of the beginners section. Moderator?
Crucible, I was waiting for someone to bring up capoeria. Superficailly, silat and capoeria are light-years apart but at the deeper level, they share so many similarities. I have friends who do capoeria, and I have jouned them in the roda. Now, I am not a capoerista, but because of my Silat background, I was able to blend and flow with my partner ("opponent") who did capoeria while I tried to imitate a capoerista. I suspect the spirit of the roda and the kembangan are the same. You can just play with a partner, or you can choose to add malice. Like capoeria, Silat movements may look flowery, but they are nuances that an untrained eye cannot see, much less understand. The flowery moves can turn into a deadly assault any time. Unfortunately, not everyone who claims to practice Silat understand the spirit behind the 'play'. Too often, I spar with a pesilat and all he wants to do is score points or hits. In the roda or kembangan, I don't think that is the point. But again, I may be wrong, that is why I posed the question of how the Kembangan is used in a real fight. I have several anecdotes of Silat fighting but I will reserve these for a later date.
May I ask a few questions: Do you guys train in the kembagngan first or learn how to fight first? Can you regard someone to be good in kembangan but lousy in fighting? Can a good fighter do away with kembangan?

[Crucible]

RedBagani, Do you have a copy of, or have you read Guro O'ong Maryono's book? It looks at many of the questions that you just brought up, and the difference between different schools of silat. What he calls Conservative schools, Liberal schools, and there may be other types as well(the books not on me at this moment). Conservative or traditional schools teach the way you do in a village, there may be techniques you show to outsiders and there may be things you never show or tell to anyone but your own school. Liberal schools came about in response to sports competition and are more concerned about what works in the competitive enviroment, so sometimes there are comments that a block or movement doesn't look like silat in these schools, it looks like judo, jujitsu, karate, or kickboxing. In his book he doesn't state preference for one or the other so much as give a general sense of the state of silat.

May I ask a few questions: Do you guys train in the kembagngan first or learn how to fight first? ?
I think I was taught one being inside the other. I was never shown a stylized movement that didn't have application. And I was never shown that distinct from prayer or ritual.
Can you regard someone to be good in kembangan but lousy in fighting? I think for your kembangan to be "full" you have to have the fighting, other wise it'll show-in your arms, in your eyes, your breath, how your legs hold the ground. I'm not saying I can see this, I'm telling you what others have told me they see when another does their kembangan. Can a good fighter do away with kembangan?I think in the heat of combat whatever comes out is what comes out, but inside of a duel you'd see kembangan.

[RedBagani]

Crucible, I have read O'ong article only in Rapid Journal, and he discussed the four types of Silat schools. Rapid Journal also regularly shows the different postures, or sikap, used in Silat. I found it frustrating that the use of these postures was not adequately explained. How are these used as set-ups or to create openings? I get these bits and pieces of information, but I can't thread them all together into a coherent and formidable whole. I know that 2 years in the arts is not enough to gain true understanding, but 2 years is a long time to be placed on the waiting list and be fed 'fruit peelings'. Maybe the saying is true: "You don't choose Silat, Silat chooses you."
Thanks for the info you gave me. I understand you'll come here this year. I hope we can meet and cross hands in the spirit of brotherhood and understanding.
Now, about the other stuff you wrote. I remember how Sugar Ray tricked Marvin Hagler with the bolo punch. It was a bugs bunny trick that worked not just once but twice. Yes, flowery moves have been used in boxing. You are right about other arts using exagerrated moves to camouflage the more lethal but subtle techniques. But Silat seems to have developed this aspect of combat to an extreme degree, compared to the other styles. There is logic to the madness. It's just that I still can't see it. Frustrating, no?

[RedBagani]

I said I have a few anecdotes about Silat fighters. Before I tell them, I would first like to say that I sincerely beleive that Silat is one of the best martial art in the planet. What I am narrating next should not be meant to show disrespect to the art. Hehehe
A friend who used to live in Jolo, Sulu, said that unsanctioned fights used to be organized near the Malaysian border. This fights are akin to the no-holds-barred contests popular on tv. One particular bout matched a Chinaman (presumably a kung fu stylist) and a pesilat. The Silat guy began with a 'bunga' (flower movement), probably to harness the energies of the universe and to deepen his connection with his Creator. In the middle of his 'bunga', the Chinaman rushed in and knocked him out.
Years ago, an amateur contest was held in Malaysia that pitted styles against styles. This particular match was between a female Thai boxer vs a female pesilat. When the bell rang, the pesilat started her dance. The Thai boxer bore straight in with a flurry of kicks and punches, and only the timely intervention of the referee prevented the pesilat from being united with her Creator.
Okay, you say, anyone can make up stories. This last case was witessed by thousands on tv. In the early days of the Ultimate Fighting Championships, a pesilat joined the melee and got clobbered. Remember that?
I just want to avoid the mistakes that these pesilat made. I also know success stories of pesilat, but telling them is not as fun. Cheers!

[Wali]

I said I have a few anecdotes about Silat fighters. Before I tell them, I would first like to say that I sincerely beleive that Silat is one of the best martial art in the planet. What I am narrating next should not be meant to show disrespect to the art. Hehehe
A friend who used to live in Jolo, Sulu, said that unsanctioned fights used to be organized near the Malaysian border. This fights are akin to the no-holds-barred contests popular on tv. One particular bout matched a Chinaman (presumably a kung fu stylist) and a pesilat. The Silat guy began with a 'bunga' (flower movement), probably to harness the energies of the universe and to deepen his connection with his Creator. In the middle of his 'bunga', the Chinaman rushed in and knocked him out.
Years ago, an amateur contest was held in Malaysia that pitted styles against styles. This particular match was between a female Thai boxer vs a female pesilat. When the bell rang, the pesilat started her dance. The Thai boxer bore straight in with a flurry of kicks and punches, and only the timely intervention of the referee prevented the pesilat from being united with her Creator.
Okay, you say, anyone can make up stories. This last case was witessed by thousands on tv. In the early days of the Ultimate Fighting Championships, a pesilat joined the melee and got clobbered. Remember that?
I just want to avoid the mistakes that these pesilat made. I also know success stories of pesilat, but telling them is not as fun. Cheers!

Seems to me that both these people you mentioned only did the kembangan for it's artistic look, and had no knowledge of the internal aspect.

The minute you go into the kembangan, and I mean from the very 1st second, your awareness increases exponentially. Had they know how to do kembangan correctly, the minute their opponent rushed in, they would have been more than ready (assuming that their silat was any good to begin with).

Like I said, you are welcome to visit EastWest studios when your over to see how it's done properly.

[Garuda]

According to what I understand from my teacher, kembangan in our style is the following:

Aesthetics is not the core of kembangan (aesthetics is the mask that seems very beautiful for an outsider, but he does not know what is behind the mask). Kembangan is closely intertwinned with the goal of pencak silat, survival. In the kembangan all the techniques are hidden, one movement in a kembangan is not just a movement. A movement is not just one technique, but each movement can contain many techniques (10 to 20). So in fact when you are practising kembangan you are practising the techniques of your style. Only you should become aware of them and learn the meaning of each movement and the possibilities of each movement. And in the end try to master them all, but this is a long way.

Kembang means flower it is just like a flower a beautiful thing, but it also hides what it is all about. It hides all the techniques it is composed of. I also agree that kembangan is not the same as kata, but it is much more complex. In the kata one movement is one technique, in the kembangan one movement is several techniques.

Kembangan is like a book in which many techniques are written, but you must first learn how to read and interprete the book (do not just look at the beautiful pictures in the book).

Garuda...

[RedBagani]

Hello Wali,
I tried to view the video clips in your website. No success. Also, the forum is temporarily closed. Maybe, next time I will be more successful. Meanwhile, could you look back at the previous posts and try to answer some of my questions, if possible?
The rest of you guys, thanks for giving me info and pointing to new leads.

[tauhid_87]

Seems to me that both these people you mentioned only did the kembangan for it's artistic look, and had no knowledge of the internal aspect.

The minute you go into the kembangan, and I mean from the very 1st second, your awareness increases exponentially. Had they know how to do kembangan correctly, the minute their opponent rushed in, they would have been more than ready (assuming that their silat was any good to begin with).

Like I said, you are welcome to visit EastWest studios when your over to see how it's done properly.

Hi, I agree with wali and garuda, based on my experience the dance, kembangan or flower is already the techniques of your silat. You would know if that person or his silat is very advance by just looking at his forms.

[silek]

In Malaysia, kembangan is known as silat dance (tari) and sometimes bunga (flower) silat. Naturally flower will later become buah (fruit).

Kembangan actually is very closely related to langkah. Through kembangan we would be able to change our standing position depending on our opponent(s). It is actually suitable if we confront numerous opponents.

Every position in kembangan is actually a 'sikap pasang'. We should be able to defend ourselves when attacked in whatever positions.

In my personal experience, doing kembangan will make me more relaxed and and my level of alertness increases.

[ptkali778]

May I ask a few questions: Do you guys train in the kembagngan first or learn how to fight first?

first things first,before you do kembangan, first you need to learn how to move or learn your jurus, then advance to langka and lastly do kembangan. the way it was explained to me by my guru, kembangan is your own expression of what you learned from doing jurus, in some sense kembangan is your bua/fruit. fruit of your hard training. :D

selamat

[rizal]

It is a mistake to regard Kembangan as nonsense.
My teachers always hammered me hard on the importance of kembangan. To a Pesilat, kembangan is the same as your name card. If you meet an opponent and you do kembangan, he immediately knows what your style is and how good you are. In the old days, not many fights progressed after each fighters opens his/her moves with a kembangan.
In practical fighting, kembangan is actually performs two things. One, to adjust our position to open ways to close and strike. Two, (this happens to many martial practicioners which do not understand silat) entice your opponent to attack.
Hope this helps

[Kiai Carita]

Salam Silat, everyone.

I am a silat practitioner from Java and hope to be able to shed some light on the practical use of kembangan in combat. To be frank there is none. What you use in combat is not the form of the kembangan. However, the essence or the soul of the form which you learn, you can touch by practising flowing kembangan movements. In combat you use pukulan, sodokan, towelan, kepretan, ambilan, bantingan, colokan, sikutan and all other ways of attacking and you don't use kembangan.

However you move with flow and with grace and with the soul of the move (for example if you move the macan style you should 'catch the macan spirit') through the practise of the flow of kembangan. I hope this makes sense.


Salam

[RedBagani]

Salam Silat, everyone.

I am a silat practitioner from Java and hope to be able to shed some light on the practical use of kembangan in combat. To be frank there is none. What you use in combat is not the form of the kembangan. However, the essence or the soul of the form which you learn, you can touch by practising flowing kembangan movements. In combat you use pukulan, sodokan, towelan, kepretan, ambilan, bantingan, colokan, sikutan and all other ways of attacking and you don't use kembangan.

However you move with flow and with grace and with the soul of the move (for example if you move the macan style you should 'catch the macan spirit') through the practise of the flow of kembangan. I hope this makes sense.


Salam

Hello. I am glad this thread has elicited some more responses. Hi, Kiai Carita. You have a refreshing idea back there that I am sure will elicit even more response. The kembangan has no practical use, you say. Hmmm. Sounds interesting. Actually, I prefer if this issue was answered not with a "take-it-or-leave-it" kind of answer. What I mean is one's opinions must be backed up by compelling evidence. I personally remain open to all kinds of interpretation of kembangan, ibing, or bunga because I think that the kembangan aspect has several layers of meaning.

I have heard all sorts of answers, and I respect them all. Most of the answers are based on traditional thinking and reflects the South-east Asian way of looking at things. I have no problem with that. But I would like to also view the question from another perspective. I think the Western mind tends to view things scientifically, and analyzing the kembangan from a scientific perspective can add another layer of meaning. I would like to see kembangan explained in terms of sound biomechanics, psychology, human kinetics, etc. For example, neuro-linguistic programming (NLP) has been used to explain and enhance athletic performance. In kembangan, for example, what serves as the trigger to close or open a position in relation to the movements of the opponents? How can one program the mind to shift from a normal state of mind to a fighting/killing mood using body movements as triggers? The West has developed several good techniques the East can learn from - NLP, Silva mind control, and several other human potential development approaches, etc, etc.

Asian masters tend to do things intuitively, and students are trained to develop their intuition. I think developing scientific analysis will complement, rather than oppose, one's understanding of Silat. It will de-mystify superstition and hearsay. Look at how scientific analysis has strengthened, rather than weakened, the Chinese art of accupuncture. I think it can do the same for Silat and other South-East Asian arts.

[Kiai Carita]

Thank you for the response. It is a very enjoyable luxury to have these sort of discussions. I agree with the opinion of Western knowledge enriching silat; in fact I think that East and West and Centre have always contributed and shaped each other too. Since a long long time agi, further back than historians can find facts.

Back to the discussion on kembangan, I would suggest that a more practical question which might elicit an enlightening response searched for by Red Bagani could be: Just how does the practise of kembangan increase effectivity in combat? :D (I'm taking kembangan does increase survival chances here)

Still this is a difficult question to discuss over the web because I am not sure whether what I call kembangan is the same as what everyone else calls kembangan. And when I say the practise of kembangan I am actually refering to private experiences, which again, might be completely different to what other people are thinking.

My father taught me to practise kembangan as thus:relaks, say a prayer, obey every will to move, move and don't stop (until he says it is time).

In West Java I have seen something like this practised with double sided drums and gongs and a trumpet like the type you see in caricatures of turbaned snake charmers. It makes me think of those educational theories (like Montessouri, Rudolf Steiner, Ki Hadjar Dewantara -is this the right spelling? :rolleyes: ) which say that learning is more richly layered and effective if it is presented in art and or play. In the West we see the application of this theory widely in nurseries and infants education. One, two, buckle my shoe (maths, practical living skills, music, rythm, spelling, writing, reading), three, frour, knock on the door (maths, social skills, music, rythm, spelling.... and so on). This makes me sad when I see music being taken out of those silat traditions which used so much of it as I see it as one of the riches of silat.

An other observation on the practise of kembangan: the practise of kembangan makes the practitioner experience a creative process and develope creative skills.

Hope this furthers the discussion. I would be very interested to hear/read other experiences with kembangan. Maybe with a little explaination what the kembangan was to make it more clear?

I met a guy from London's East West studios a couple of days ago and we chated about kembangan and energies and I found it very interesting because this young Londoner of Spanish descent walked like a tiger and had alot of knowledge and experience on silat but refused to smoke a real Djie Sam Soe kretek cigarrette! :eek: When I was growing up under the shade of the Lawu mountain in Jawa I thought that to be a pendekar you had to smoke kretek cigarrettes and tie your udeng head scarf with a tiny triangle down the centre of the forehead. No I know better. :bang:

I see there is a knowledgable senior member of this forum who trains in the East West studios in North London named Wali. I'm curious, does Wali in this forum have a yellow and black business card? Is it you who is going to Indonesia soon Wali?

Salam persilatan.

[Wali]

Thank you for the response. It is a very enjoyable luxury to have these sort of discussions. I agree with the opinion of Western knowledge enriching silat; in fact I think that East and West and Centre have always contributed and shaped each other too. Since a long long time agi, further back than historians can find facts.

Back to the discussion on kembangan, I would suggest that a more practical question which might elicit an enlightening response searched for by Red Bagani could be: Just how does the practise of kembangan increase effectivity in combat? :D (I'm taking kembangan does increase survival chances here)

Still this is a difficult question to discuss over the web because I am not sure whether what I call kembangan is the same as what everyone else calls kembangan. And when I say the practise of kembangan I am actually refering to private experiences, which again, might be completely different to what other people are thinking.

My father taught me to practise kembangan as thus:relaks, say a prayer, obey every will to move, move and don't stop (until he says it is time).

In West Java I have seen something like this practised with double sided drums and gongs and a trumpet like the type you see in caricatures of turbaned snake charmers. It makes me think of those educational theories (like Montessouri, Rudolf Steiner, Ki Hadjar Dewantara -is this the right spelling? :rolleyes: ) which say that learning is more richly layered and effective if it is presented in art and or play. In the West we see the application of this theory widely in nurseries and infants education. One, two, buckle my shoe (maths, practical living skills, music, rythm, spelling, writing, reading), three, frour, knock on the door (maths, social skills, music, rythm, spelling.... and so on). This makes me sad when I see music being taken out of those silat traditions which used so much of it as I see it as one of the riches of silat.

An other observation on the practise of kembangan: the practise of kembangan makes the practitioner experience a creative process and develope creative skills.

Hope this furthers the discussion. I would be very interested to hear/read other experiences with kembangan. Maybe with a little explaination what the kembangan was to make it more clear?

I met a guy from London's East West studios a couple of days ago and we chated about kembangan and energies and I found it very interesting because this young Londoner of Spanish descent walked like a tiger and had alot of knowledge and experience on silat but refused to smoke a real Djie Sam Soe kretek cigarrette! :eek: When I was growing up under the shade of the Lawu mountain in Jawa I thought that to be a pendekar you had to smoke kretek cigarrettes and tie your udeng head scarf with a tiny triangle down the centre of the forehead. No I know better. :bang:

I see there is a knowledgable senior member of this forum who trains in the East West studios in North London named Wali. I'm curious, does Wali in this forum have a yellow and black business card? Is it you who is going to Indonesia soon Wali?

Salam persilatan.

Hi Kiai,

No, it wasn't me that you spoke to, it sounds like it was Steve Benitez.

As far as the smoking goes, it doesn't make sense that you need to smoke ANY type of cigarrette to become a Pendekar!

What day did you go? Did you get to see any of the classes? The Kembagang night is on Wednesdays.

Cheers,
Wali

[Kiai Carita]

Dear Wali, I have never been to your studio. What time are your kembangan sessions on Wednesday night? How do you get to your studio by public transport? I would like to see your activities one day.

Salam.

[RedBagani]

Back to the discussion on kembangan, I would suggest that a more practical question which might elicit an enlightening response searched for by Red Bagani could be: Just how does the practise of kembangan increase effectivity in combat? :D (I'm taking kembangan does increase survival chances here)

Still this is a difficult question to discuss over the web because I am not sure whether what I call kembangan is the same as what everyone else calls kembangan. And when I say the practise of kembangan I am actually refering to private experiences, which again, might be completely different to what other people are thinking.

My father taught me to practise kembangan as thus:relaks, say a prayer, obey every will to move, move and don't stop (until he says it is time).

Salam persilatan.

Hello Kiai Carita (is that pronounced with a K or a Ch?),
I think rephrasing the original question will probably elicit more detailed and technically-oriented answers. This is indeed a very difficult question to pose in the internet, and I hope that people will be kind and patient enough to give a good response.
When you said that it can't be used in a practical manner, was this based on your own experience or was it the way you were taught? How is your sparring different from the way you did kembangan? I understand that there is also a two-person form in kembangan

[Kiai Carita]

Hello Kiai Carita (is that pronounced with a K or a Ch?),
I think rephrasing the original question will probably elicit more detailed and technically-oriented answers. This is indeed a very difficult question to pose in the internet, and I hope that people will be kind and patient enough to give a good response.
When you said that it can't be used in a practical manner, was this based on your own experience or was it the way you were taught? How is your sparring different from the way you did kembangan? I understand that there is also a two-person form in kembangan

The fist word of my name is pronounced with a K and the second with a Ch.... back to the question of kembangan, I would like to make sure that what I say is kembangan is the same to what you say it is. What do you mean by kembangan?

[Sgt_Major]

in my understanding it is the solo practise of what I know. I imagine myself being attacked by one opponent, and visualise how I would deal with that, right through to takedown, falls, and then put another attacker in the picture to make me aware of another 'opponent', and I'll keep adding more and more until my brain freezes, then I'll step back, take a break and start again....

[Kiai Carita]

Sounds a good practise of kembangan Silat Pupil. :cool: Try not to stop flowing and take your time to make every move until you get the proper form (sempurna). It is not neccesary to imagine attackers, just follow the logic and flow of your movements and positions. Mind listen to body not body follow fantasy. :D

Hope this helps.

[Sgt_Major]

I find the imagination lets my mind empty of thinking what im going to eat next, or work I need to get done, eventually there is just me, and my 'attackers' and my body moves on its own accord as my mind is 'busy' trying to beat my body.... its quite fun really, and I only stop when I get too tired, maybe 15mins after I started...

:D

[Kiai Carita]

I find the imagination lets my mind empty of thinking what im going to eat next, or work I need to get done, eventually there is just me, and my 'attackers' and my body moves on its own accord as my mind is 'busy' trying to beat my body.... its quite fun really, and I only stop when I get too tired, maybe 15mins after I started...
:D

Sounds good. Selamat latihan. :D :D

[RedBagani]

I think we are in agreement with what we mean by the term "kembangan". When I did it, it was just like how you guys described it, basically to relax, and go with the spirit and flow of the art. I think others call it the bunga, or ibing, or some other name. In Merpati Putih, there is a similar exercise called "gerakan mabuk", loosely translated as drunken movements, because one moves as if drunk with energy. From my experience, it is very spontaneous, and people move differently from one another. Even at different times, the same person will move differently, depending on his/her present level.
What I want to understand is that aspect of combat where the pesilat makes gestures before a clash with an opponent. How is this done properly in Silat? Maybe this is better answered by personal anecdotes and description of actual experiences and understanding, rather than hypothetical ideas or references to videos or other training materials. I'd like to know if anyone has actually sparred or fought using Silat, and if they have, what are their insights? I think it is really hard to discuss this topic in the net, but many have already provided valuable lessons in this thread.

[Sgt_Major]

ahhh, what your talking about it the principle of Off-timing, basicly using thigh slaps, hand flashing to distract the opponent from what your about to do. Its a form of decoying, by slapping your leg, the opponent often looks at the source of the sound, which lets you direct an attack at their face with a time window where they dont see it coming.

Of course, when you know it, you dont fall for it so easy....

[Kiai Carita]

In Merpati Putih, there is a similar exercise called "gerakan mabuk", loosely translated as drunken movements, because one moves as if drunk with energy. From my experience, it is very spontaneous, and people move differently from one another. Even at different times, the same person will move differently, depending on his/her present level.What I want to understand is that aspect of combat where the pesilat makes gestures before a clash with an opponent.

Salam silat...

Red Bagani ... In real combat your moves would change depending the environment of the fight and on your opponent(s) attack(s). I don't think Mr.Bush' concept of pre-emptive strikes is compatible with the universal warrior code or pencak silat :D :D .

:cool: In silat usually the code is 'Lu jual gue beli' or 'You sell I buy' implicating that a fight is actually a negotiation and also a pesilat does not begin attacking without being attacked first. :cool: Sudanese elders say :Alien: 'nista, maja, utama', meaning first let someone humiliate you :) . If that does not bring peace the second choice is to move away :love: . If you are still prosecuted then give them your best and fight-utama ;) .

In combat or in dangerous situations, your flow of movements will be good if you practise your kembangan, or 'gerak-mabuk' or 'gerak naluri' or whatever you call it - that very Indonesian method of creating art which is the core of all Indonesian arts, from meteorite finding for keris blades to dance or headhunting - which is called following the krenteg- (the second-to-second pull of the heart). These 'kembangan' practises must be correct and diligent and truthfull and done in faith as a way of surrendering to God's Will. In this aspect Indonesian silat might differ with other martial arts because one of the important elements of the silat method is the presence of Faith (any religion will do as long as the Faith is strong).

In a fight whether you actually make any kembangan moves or not, depends on the circumstances. ... In a duel or a sport championship where kembangans get points, the pesilat often begin to move towards eachother in formal kembangan. Whether or not it is effective depends on the sweat and tears poured on the training floor.

As to your question about anecdotes I can say that since I began learning silat in 1983 I have never had fisticuffs with anyone. However I have been in dangerous situations and have found myself moving in circular motions and assessing 360 degrees and constantly being consious of spatial relations and people's intent. In meditation I find this is because of the drill of the moves and breathing exercises that keep me aware and calm, and the exercise of the flow movement, free-movement, flower-movement, what-we-have-been-discussing-movement, makes it possible to flow like water and have something to do while living through the suspense of impending violence. I flowed in my heart without any physical silat like moves so nothing much to tell.

I hope someone more heroic will be able to give a more exciting account of the magic of this art.

Selamat berlatih.

[RedBagani]

Hello Kiai Carita,
I just learned a lot more from you. About looking for someone heroic on the Net,... Please, that is exactly the type of guy I am NOT looking for. From my experience, that's the type of guy who is all talk but has no real knowledge, skill or experience. I prefer discussing with someone who has no ego, no business to sell, and without ulterior motives.
About using the right feeling...In Merpati Putih, the tenaga or energy is understood as a force. I have practised another Silat style where the guys explained to me that the energy that enters the practitioner is actually aware. It has consciuosness. In other words, it is a spirit. I know some practitioners frown on this kind of practise and say that we are working with djinns. Have you another kind of explanation for this? You mentioned before about getting the feeling and spirit of the tiger.

[Kiai Carita]

Hello Kiai Carita,

About using the right feeling...In Merpati Putih, the tenaga or energy is understood as a force. I have practised another Silat style where the guys explained to me that the energy that enters the practitioner is actually aware. It has consciuosness. In other words, it is a spirit. I know some practitioners frown on this kind of practise and say that we are working with djinns. Have you another kind of explanation for this? You mentioned before about getting the feeling and spirit of the tiger.

Red Bagani...should I call you Mas Red? :) -meaning Gold (elder or younger) brother Red? :) ... :rolleyes: People talk about jinns, fairies, leprachauns, wewe gomble, banaspati, ... :rolleyes: are all trying to capture some natural phenomenon in words. :rolleyes: Words which are imbeded and connected to every aspect within their culture, no, more than that, their life reality.

:cool: Out there in the unseen there is good and bad just like in the world we see. :Angel: In Islam there are Jinns, Syaithans, and Malaikats. Jinns and Syaithans have free will like humans but the angels obey Allah always. This is Islam's way of explaining the unseen, but Islam does not claim that this is all the unseen is ( :bang: unless you are talking to an oil-money-spoilt-brat Wahabi :bang: ) :) also Islam has the disclaimer that only Allah knows the unseen, :rolleyes: and whoever knows only knows a little.

:cool: Westerners now say everything is energy, vibration shapes the grouping of atoms. The truth remains that we still know so little, life is a great force and a great mystery.

:rolleyes: Now about capturing the spirit there are two ways in Javanes poetic practices. The first is considered cheating and low quality art, :woo: it is to bring some soul into you to perform your art. The term is kelungguhan, to be sat on. ;) The Jawa ideal is to lungguh. To (spiritually) sit down and create your art with gregel (as if it is just soooooo simple as flexing young nose). To get there you must do greget-sawiji-sengguh-nora mingkuh--- I think I posted about that earlier. :p In simple Welsh it is DRILL!DRILL!DRILL! but not mechanically, rather with totality.

:cool: Merpati Putih is a proper Jawa art so it seeks to get the second option. Both options have the practitioner in trance. It is the same trance only Merpati Putih would hope Mas Red would be a tiger a'la Mas Red, with character and individuality, sensitivity, mercy, and so on.

The Tiger Mas Red might be possessed by calling or special training in an other art might a Tiger spirit-energy-jinn-thingy which has differen morals, feelings, responsibilities, existence, than Mas Red. Mas Red calls this Tiger and becomes posessed and the Tiger fights using mas Red's body. After the fight you might be arrested, you might have HIV positive blood in your mouth, you might be anything Holywood can imagine. You have been posessed, sat upon, kelungguhan. You let some 'devil' take over your body. In the very least your body will be sore all over from being moved by 'someone else'. People who do not understand thought that you were a great artist but those who know think you are a prostitue who does not respect your own body or soul as God's best creation.

What happens if the fight happens in Sydney :eek: where there are no tiger spirits available and a koala or a wombat enters the pendekar instead of a tiger?

However the true Force, like the force talked about in Star Wars, the Bible, Al Qur'an, Bhagawad Gita, Wedhatama, Deru Campur Debu and all tru art also does also have a soul. To bring out your true life force and personality you must let this soul move you. Islamic concepts like the untranslatable word IKHLAS are key into letting this God Breath / Tao guide your movements.

There is a difference between good and evil. According to our ancestors who created the Calon Arang total theatre of Bali, Good is the practice of bringing to life. Evil is the practise of killing. Sederhana tapi simple.

The true Mas Red can chose either and still be true to his character.

Salam hormat.

[RedBagani]

Terima Kaseh, Kiai Carita, for your lengthy explanation. I think I am beginning to see where my problem in understanding lies.

ahhh, what your talking about it the principle of Off-timing, basicly using thigh slaps, hand flashing to distract the opponent from what your about to do. Its a form of decoying, by slapping your leg, the opponent often looks at the source of the sound, which lets you direct an attack at their face with a time window where they dont see it coming.

Of course, when you know it, you dont fall for it so easy....

Hi. Is this manner of fighting considered superior, or simply different, from the other ways of fighting? Some styles prefer not to make any pre-fight gestures but the pesilat has developed this to an extreme degree.

I am actually more versed in Filipino Arnis. The ideal strike is a pre-emptive move when the opponent is not yet prepared. This is done in the context of a real fight or a challenge match. Once a threat has been discerned, it is considered fair to strike the first blow. A threat is considered just as serious as a physical attack. This has nothing to do with morality but with practicality. Even among Filipino Muslims (at least from the limited exposure I got) using Silat/Kuntao, they don't like to telegraph their moves. The bunga is not as elaborate as those I have seen in Malaysia or Indonesia.

We have done some interesting things with our combat arts. The Filipino Kris, for example, is very distinct from other South-East Asian versions. The Filipino Kris is larger and wider so that it has become not just a stabbing weapon as in the case of Indonesia and Malaysia, but it can also be used for slashing like a sword. The handle and tang of the blade has been modified to fit to this form of fighting. The Filipino Kris is reflective of the pragmatic mentality of the Moro fighter. In fact, this is true of other Filipino martial arts. (We consider the Silat/Kuntao arts found in Mindanao as true Filipino martial arts). In traditional arnis, for example, we do not have choreographed forms or kata.

I am still looking for the pragmatic application of said moves and I think I am beginning to get some insights. By the way, Kembangan is not a native term so a Moro may know it only by some other term.

About the different methods of getting into the spirit ... I guess that is basically a choice, then. So far, I have no problems with both methods. Most pesilat I know prefer developing their own spirit and energy. The other method...ahhh, it seems like a short-cut but is actually more complicated. I don't recommend it for most people. Maybe better not recommend it, period.

[mas guru]

kembangan is different in many systems of silat. sometimes it looks like karate.
sometimes it looks like empty hand kali. we call it (bunga) in our group. combining the jurus with the lanka's makes your own dance not someone elses.
it is your life story that comes out kinda like carenza from kali. very easy to copy someone else, but hard to make your own. at least i think its hard.
paul :)

[soulguru]

nice stuff here- very informative & relevant; now from what i know & experienced (Tausug silat-kuntaw is my art: from the Philippines' Sulu Archipelago), the way we do kembangan is from a very combative point of view: both sizing up d enemy/gauging d distance, & trying to focus & flow w/ one's energy,tactics, approach...a silater w/ a deeper understanding knows this- oneness is being achieved thru motion, intent, purpose. thus anticipating ur enemy & dealing w/ him/her in d most direct, simplest manner possible.

reacting yet being proactive- all the while aware of one's innerself and the scenario/s happening around. when u move & do ur forms, all these should have meaning towards culminating the fight. think of a circle- of being "one" with everything- urself, ur opponent, ur surroundings. anyone's who's worth his/her Silat will understand this easily...

Salaam.

[Sgt_Major]

I understand the principle you speak of..... but the w/'s and the d's get me confused ;)

[soulguru]

I understand the principle you speak of..... but the w/'s and the d's get me confused ;)

ehehe. sory friend. m used to usin' "d" in lieu of "the". its wat u call "text lingo" back here in Manila, the Philippines. much faster when m trying 2 'speak my mind' while typing, especially when ur trying to catch one's flow of thoughts. here's some of my fave abbreviations (er codes? =))for ur perusal:

d -the
ur -your
w/ -with
2 -to
m -am

...hope this helped; its just an out-of-d-box way of typing fast, ehehe...

[amirul_tekpi79]

Peace to all,

In my opinion, kembangan, tari, bunga, pelebat, etc are the embodiment of a pesilat's survival instinct. For example, when a pesilat moves to the ground, it could either mean or symbolizes;

1) evading an attack
2) getting something from the ground i.e. weapons, soil/dirt/sand or anything that lies there
3) to 'acah' or 'tipu' the opponent
4) getting the leverage needed for a 'gunting' technique using his/her legs
5) or any other types of attack/counterattack

In Malaysia, there is one silat that originates from West Sumatra that calls itself Silat Randai Minang. They say that their origin of the 'randai' was due to a tiger that attacked a certain village. The villagers then devised a plan to ambush the tiger and made a human circle around it. They then circled the tiger and made certain prayers that eventually killed the tiger.

This clearly shows the importance of the randai or any other flowing & artistic motion that exist in silat in the survival mindset of the people of Nusantara.

Wow..i feel like a scholar! :D Again friends, this is just my opinion. Please correct any mistakes. Thanks.

Peace

[Sgt_Major]

ehehe. sory friend. m used to usin' "d" in lieu of "the". its wat u call "text lingo" back here in Manila, the Philippines. much faster when m trying 2 'speak my mind' while typing, especially when ur trying to catch one's flow of thoughts. here's some of my fave abbreviations (er codes? =))for ur perusal:

d -the
ur -your
w/ -with
2 -to
m -am

...hope this helped; its just an out-of-d-box way of typing fast, ehehe...

Please try not to use those because, as it says in the Terms of Service, its hard for some people to read....

Thanks


4.2 Language:
MAP is an English speaking forum. Please take the time to post in plain, legible English.
4.2.1 This is not a mobile phone text service – you do not need to use abbreviations to reduce the length of your post. It makes it hard for ne1 not used 2 txt sp34k 2 read wot u r saying.

[soulguru]

WoW- are we talkng semantics here, English 101 or wat? got ur point but keep cool man- the way my narratives actually flow is basic "Queen's language". if i abbreviate, use a simpler, more direct way of posting messages, its still w/in the context of "plain, legible, understandable, conversational English"- regardless whether of the American or British persuasion. nothing unfathomable there- juz bein creative. & bein creative is free- RIGHT? unless u wana be some sort of 'English-language Gestapo' or what... then again, we're off topic.

this is supposed to be a sharing of Silat ideas- not about English 101. I'd rather play w/ my beloved barong than discuss nonsensical stuff... enuff sed.

Salaam

Please try not to use those because, as it says in the Terms of Service, its hard for some people to read....

Thanks


4.2 Language:
MAP is an English speaking forum. Please take the time to post in plain, legible English.
4.2.1 This is not a mobile phone text service – you do not need to use abbreviations to reduce the length of your post. It makes it hard for ne1 not used 2 txt sp34k 2 read wot u r saying.

[RedBagani]

Hello soulguru,
Welcome to MAP and contributing to this thread. Let's make this a productive discussion. You are right, let's be cool. I know we all can. Now back to the topic... What do you think about getting into the spirit? I hope this question is not impolite.

[soulguru]

Hello soulguru,
Welcome to MAP and contributing to this thread. Let's make this a productive discussion. You are right, let's be cool. I know we all can. Now back to the topic... What do you think about getting into the spirit? I hope this question is not impolite.

hello red- thanx 4 the welcome. lets have kofi agen. also, i got an invite to chinatown- maybe for practice or for demo; will tell u details some othertime. so wat do u mean by "getting into the spirit"?

can u pls elaborate more?

[RedBagani]

Hello soulguru,
So, was it through Silat magick that you knew my username? I don't remember telling you that. Hehehe. Never mind. Important thing is you are here. A naughty thing you just did back there. Poor Silatpupil, he was just doing his job as a Topic Moderator. The least you can do is re-read the terms of agreement. I am sure you meant no harm. Okay, let's just forget that whole thing before the moderator gets to read your previous posts. Hehehehe.

That spirit thing I was asking. Well, some pesilat frown on getting the energy/force from the Universe if it was not overtly, clearly and specifically from the Creator. Some think we are into spirit possession. Hehehe. What do you think?
Let me say a few things before you answer. This is really a tricky topic because it can easily escalate into a religous debate. One reason why I haven't raised this question till you came along. One person may look at a guy and see something wrong in what the other is doing. Who is wrong and who is right? It is hard to say. I have charismatic Catholics call on the Holy Spirit and when they sing in unintelligible tongues, writhe, sway, fall to the ground and do other strange movements, non-Catholics may think these guys were possesed by unclean spirits. I think a similar way of judging pesilat getting the spirit may also exist. Could you answer my question without us getting into a discussion involving religion?

[Jang Bong]

Excuse and outside peeking in - but I've been becoming more and more intrigued by your art (as well as verbally crossing swords with SilatPupil :D ).

I'm currently reading the 2nd of the 'Net Force' series by Tom Clancy. Silat plays a part in this series, and I'm guessing the author is either involved or has done some good research.

The following is an extract from the 3rd book in the series - and seems relevant to this thread. It comes from a work of fiction, but I'd be interested in how accurate it is:

Kembangan was the "flower dance" and, unlike forms or kata in most martial arts, was a spontaneous expression of a silat player's art, nothing prearranged. An expert never did the same form twice. Unlike buah, the full-speed and full-power dance, kembangan softened the moves, using the open hands more than fists, and turned the motions into a dance suitable for demonstrations, weddings, and social gatherings.

If you really wanted to see how good a silat player was, you watched them do kembangan. In the old days, when a fight was imminent but the contestants didn't want to maim or kill each other, they would sometimes offer each other kembangan instead of actual combat. Experts could recognize who would have won the fight by the skill they displayed during the dance, and there would be no need to come to blows. If you were defeated in kembangan, you apologized or made right whatever the problem was, and that was that. It would be dishonorable to continue against an opponent of much lesser skill, and foolish to challege one who was obviously much better.

------------------------------------

The character then proceeds to demonstrate her 'dance', and puts a deliberate mistake in so that the class instructor would not 'lose face' (if he wasn't up to her standard). Very interesting reading.

Here is hoping that this author is giving a good account of your art, and possibly getting other people interested.

Pyung Ahn (Peace & Harmony) :)

[Sgt_Major]

sounds about right to me....

[Ular Sawa]

I may be mistaken Jang Bong, but I believe the author of that novel "Net Force" was a MAP member at one time and used to post here.

[Monyet Nakal]

The 'NetForce' series is written by a cat named Steve Perry (no, not the guy from Journey) and, as I understand it, he is very actively involved with Stevan Plinck's Pentjak Silat Serak group.

[soulguru]

hi red,

thanks for the kind words; guess i was bit harsh to silatpupil- my apologies then. i understnd he was only doin his job. anyway, back to your query: you are correct in trying to avoid issues that may involve religious uproar. as it is, some people are ultra-sensitive about it (fanatical to the extreme...). my belief is that it really depends on one's perception to that scenario, and how he/she is affected by it. people should know that we come from diverse cultural & religious backgounds, thus, what may be weird may actually be normal to some. above & foremost, openess is key to trying to fathom such a topic.

warrior arts deal with death. thus the emphasis in trying to understand the so-called meaning of life- why it can be so fleeting to some, yet fulfilling to others. the operant word here is acceptance- that indeed death can & will always be part of combat- & life. doing so opens the doors to the question- is there a GOD? is there something out there, like a force above others? thus man's pursuit in trying to find answers to this concept. others then use religion as a belief mechanism to fill this void; others try to explain it as a universal energy permeating everything. my way of thinkng is its everything that one wants to believe in- and how one uses this belief or concept in tryin to redefine oneself as a warrior. thus spiritualism and trying to understand the metaphysical aspects of being a warrior in everysense- honing the physical, mental, religious/spiritual areas critical to being 'complete' in one's respective Warrior arts. some will say this is trying to find the "god-like qualities" inherent within us... or tapping into the infinite resources of another realm- the spirit world, so to speak... its gona take lotsa coffee for us to discuss this; i'm juz trying to 'encapsulate' this in a nutshell; hope this helps meantime...

Hello soulguru,
...That spirit thing I was asking. Well, some pesilat frown on getting the energy/force from the Universe if it was not overtly, clearly and specifically from the Creator. Some think we are into spirit possession. Hehehe. What do you think?
Let me say a few things before you answer. This is really a tricky topic because it can easily escalate into a religous debate. One reason why I haven't raised this question till you came along. One person may look at a guy and see something wrong in what the other is doing. Who is wrong and who is right? It is hard to say. I have charismatic Catholics call on the Holy Spirit and when they sing in unintelligible tongues, writhe, sway, fall to the ground and do other strange movements, non-Catholics may think these guys were possesed by unclean spirits. I think a similar way of judging pesilat getting the spirit may also exist. Could you answer my question without us getting into a discussion involving religion?

[soulguru]

right you are- every move a fighter does in kembangan shows how fluid, deadly and accurate he's capable of delivering his strikes: whether using empty hands or with his beloved blade... thus, one can determine a fighter's level also just by looking at his execution.

as i pointed out in my previous post, this is where "oneness" is achieved by a fighter doin a kembangan prior to conflict- his mental, physical, spiritual attributes attuned to the scenario at hand: flowing yet anticipating, balancing the hard & soft, thinking yet not expecting... its understanding all the nuances that combat has to offer, yet accepting whatever fate will give: life or death; victory or defeat... point here is, you do what you have to do as a warrior- let the gods or fate decide the outcome- simply put...

...Kembangan was the "flower dance" and, unlike forms or kata in most martial arts, was a spontaneous expression of a silat player's art, nothing prearranged. An expert never did the same form twice. Unlike buah, the full-speed and full-power dance, kembangan softened the moves, using the open hands more than fists, and turned the motions into a dance suitable for demonstrations, weddings, and social gatherings.

If you really wanted to see how good a silat player was, you watched them do kembangan. In the old days, when a fight was imminent but the contestants didn't want to maim or kill each other, they would sometimes offer each other kembangan instead of actual combat. Experts could recognize who would have won the fight by the skill they displayed during the dance, and there would be no need to come to blows. If you were defeated in kembangan, you apologized or made right whatever the problem was, and that was that. It would be dishonorable to continue against an opponent of much lesser skill, and foolish to challege one who was obviously much better.

------------------------------------

The character then proceeds to demonstrate her 'dance', and puts a deliberate mistake in so that the class instructor would not 'lose face' (if he wasn't up to her standard). Very interesting reading.

Here is hoping that this author is giving a good account of your art, and possibly getting other people interested.

Pyung Ahn (Peace & Harmony) :)[/QUOTE]

[soulguru]

no kidding... :) Journey (the band) is one of my faves... surprising to see the name 'Steve Perry' mentioned here, ehehe...

The 'NetForce' series is written by a cat named Steve Perry (no, not the guy from Journey) and, as I understand it, he is very actively involved with Stevan Plinck's Pentjak Silat Serak group.

[RedBagani]

If you really wanted to see how good a silat player was, you watched them do kembangan. In the old days, when a fight was imminent but the contestants didn't want to maim or kill each other, they would sometimes offer each other kembangan instead of actual combat. Experts could recognize who would have won the fight by the skill they displayed during the dance, and there would be no need to come to blows. If you were defeated in kembangan, you apologized or made right whatever the problem was, and that was that. It would be dishonorable to continue against an opponent of much lesser skill, and foolish to challege one who was obviously much better.

Pyung Ahn (Peace & Harmony) :)

This convention is much used in Indonesia and other places that are steeped in Silat/Kuntao traditions. However, if a pesilat tried doing that to , say a kickboxer, in Manila, where the great majority don't know what Silat is, the pesilat will probably be laughed at and his intentions misunderstood. I think this is one reason why the kembangan is not so elaborately performed in the Philippines. Even among the muslim communities in Manila, the pesilat is rare.
I have trained with Indonesians and Malays and I find the kembangan fascinating. I am still learning more about it.

By the way Jang Bong, I also have high regards for the martial culture and traitions of your country. I learned how to use a short stick called Dan Bong from a Korean master.

[serakmurid]

Hi Jang Bong,
Would you please tell me which Net Force book this is in? I 've read a couple of them because I was interested in seeing how the art I study, Pencak Silat Serak, is portrayed.
Thank you, sir.

[Jang Bong]

Having my working base in a library, I keep flicking through odd books and it is amazing the things that show up - like this particular series.

I'm not sure where 'Steve Perry' comes into things, as the series is called "Tom Clancy's Net Force" and the created by (and I presumed written by) Tom Clancy and Steve Pieczenik. [Steve P - coincidence? His bio says he is a Harvard-treained psyciatrist has been Deputy Assistant Secretary of State]

The 3 books in the series (as far as I've found) are entitled Net Force, Hidden Agendas, and Night Moves - the quotation I typed was from the 3rd one.

I tend to read 'rubbish', so I like it when I can spot the interesting and useful facts tucked away inside a darn good story. ;)

By the way Jang Bong, I also have high regards for the martial culture and traitions of your country. I learned how to use a short stick called Dan Bong from a Korean master.

Thanks for the regards - it is only my country by way of the 1st martial art I've learned (but the sentiment is appreciated :)). I am enjoying my learning, and have worked more with weapons than without (due to circumstances of time). I suppose that in MAP terms 'Dan Bong' must be my little brother :D

[Sgt_Major]

I look forward to meeting you more now mate :D

[Monyet Nakal]

I'm not sure where 'Steve Perry' comes into things, as the series is called "Tom Clancy's Net Force" and the created by (and I presumed written by) Tom Clancy and Steve Pieczenik. [Steve P - coincidence? His bio says he is a Harvard-treained psyciatrist has been Deputy Assistant Secretary of State]

Yes, I see you caught that it says "Created By" and not "Written By." As I understand it, (and I could be totally off the mark. I mean I haven't even actually read any of the books) the stories are based on an idea by Tom Clancy and Steve Pieczenik but were actually (ghost) written by Steve Perry. Perry doesn't become the credited author until I believe the fourth book in the series (Pretty sure there are at least 9 books in the series, although, again, I'm not sure)

(Pretty much all the products put out by Clancy's company credit him with their creation but that doesn't mean they're his babies part and parcel. I mean how much actual devolpment work do you think he's done on the video games that bear his name?)

Again, I'm not claiming to be an expert on this, just trying to share my understanding of it as I only have a slight interest in the books because Mr. Perry is a moderate celebrity who practices the same art as I do (albeit he studies Guru Stevan Plinck's line whereas I study with Maha Guru Victor De Thouars) and I'm glad that he presents it to the public through his work.

(My apologies for going so far off topic)

[Silatyogi]

hello,

Just from a attribute development point of view, practice of kembangan helps you gain stability, fluidity, percision, in your motions, deceptiveness, evasion, attack by drawing, timing, depending on the speed at which you practice (although you should do them slow and smooth like a tai chi) you can also develop breath control, one pointedness of mind, physical strength, balance etc. I am sure there are many many more things that can be developed. Its deffinetly a thing all my teachers recommended me to practice. Also its a lot of fun to do

-santi
www.doblesinstitute.com

[serakmurid]

Thank you Jang Bong for your reply. If you think about it, "Pieczenik" sounds an awful lot like "Peace nik"! An interesting pen name, don't you think?
Monyet Nakal, so you study with Pak Vic, too? If you get the chance/desire can you tell me who you are?
Hormat!

[soulguru]

hello,

Just from a attribute development point of view, practice of kembangan helps you gain stability, fluidity, percision, in your motions, deceptiveness, evasion, attack by drawing, timing, depending on the speed at which you practice (although you should do them slow and smooth like a tai chi) you can also develop breath control, one pointedness of mind, physical strength, balance etc. I am sure there are many many more things that can be developed. Its deffinetly a thing all my teachers recommended me to practice. Also its a lot of fun to do

-santi
www.doblesinstitute.com

very good- doing kembangan ala taichi gives one the chance to evaluate movements, plus the understanding of why the pesilat will do certain maneuvers...

[Kiai Carita]

Salam silat to all,

I noticed that there are no mentions of the live music in these discussions on the use of kembangan. You all might have noticed too that I have posted an invitation to London pesilat to come to the Stables Market in camden, Sunday evenings, to practise kembangan with my gamelan group called Sekar Gedhogan Community Gamelan Orchestra (Sekar= Flower, Gedhogan= Stables). This is not advertising just a plain honest invitation for the love of silat. I do hope some of you London players will turn up and we can practise enough to advertise a public demo for Londoners for free (the Stables Market closes around 7 PM and after that there is more or less free open space there)

The practise of kembangan within a community allows players to learn moves from other members of the community who might be students from other schools. It also gives the community a chance to see silat in flow and to understand the world of silat better. The live music that accompanies the players also give the player an outside tempo to deal with just like a real battle would. The several instruments in the kembangan troupe all create a multi-complex atmosphere with many beats for the pesilat to react to. In public kembangan with live music, the competition that arrises between the pesilat is given the outlet of beauty so that hard feelings are replaced by brotherhood.

So once again, if any London players are interested I would like to hear from you!

Hormat,
Kiai Carita.

[tellner]

Steve Perry - who sometimes hangs out on this board - wrote the Netforce books. You'll notice that in the acknowledgments for the first few they thanked him "for helping bring the manuscript together". His name ended up on the covers after someone filed a lawsuit against the publishers of the V.C. Andrews books ("Flowers in the Attic" and similar tripe). The plaintiffs wanted to be sure they were getting the authentic V.C. Andrews experience and not a mere imitation.

They won. Ghost writers started getting cover credit.

Steve has been a student of Guru Stevan Plinck for about eight years. He's very dedicated, and it shows up in what he writes.

The Sci-Fi geeks in the room are probably aware of his Matador books starting with The Man Who Never Missed (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0441519180/qid=1120711091/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_ur_1/102-0056102-3821761?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) and continuing on for about half a dozen more. No Silat, but lots of martial arts. The prequel to the series, The Musashi Flex (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0441013619/qid=1120711209/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-0056102-3821761?v=glance&s=books&n=507846), should be out around the end of 2005. It will have lots and lots of Silat.

[izamryan]

Assalamualaikum.

I am a Wing Chun novice (Yip Man/Leung Ting lineage), although I hope to get some family members to teach me Silat. The style is "Silat Gerak Empat Satu" which means, silat movement four-one, i.e. it is the combination of four predecessor silat styles. I am not sure what the 4 styles are just yet, but I think 3 of them are: Silat Cekak, Silat Melayu/Brunei, Silat Cimande. The syllabus is http://www.conceptscom.net/silatbrunei/persilatan-sukatan.html

The original question that started this thread was: "What are the combative uses of Kembangan in pencak silat?". So far, we've had the following discussions:

1. It has other positive side benefits, not directly affecting combat - increased awareness, peripheral sensitivity and a deeper spiritual connection. (Wali)

2. Kembangan used in combat to show fake openings, over-telegraphing a movement, attacking by drawing, making fake moves to distract the opponent while you attack elsewhere,etc (Crucible, SilatPupil)

3. Kembangan used in combat as a "business card", to create openings and to commence combat, particularly in multiple opponent situations (tauhid_87, rizal,silek).

Consistent with the second point made by Crucible. I think the "create openings" is similar in concept to what is called "seeking the bridge" in Wing Chun, although it is achieved in a different way - the thigh slapping and fake moves generate tension and cause the opponent to over-react, vs. Wing Chun movement to generate contact and allow the contact reflex to operate.

4. Kembangan is not useful directly in combat but is used to appreciate the "soul" or the "flow" of the forms, techniques, etc. This can enhance the practitioner's ability to get creative in a fight, and easily flow from technique to technique or opponent to opponent in the heat of battle. (Kiai Carita)

This would make kembangan similar to the drills performed in other martial arts to train the mind's reflexes and helps us pull an appropriate technique under stress. Think Chi Sao and other energy drills in Wing Chun.

5. Kembangan is used in combat for evasion, retrieving something from the ground (e.g. sand), to trick "tipu" the opponent, get leverage fo a "gunting" scissors kick, attack / counterattack (amirul_tekpi79)

6. Practice of kembangan helps you, depending on the speed at which you practice (although you should do them slow and smooth like a tai chi) develop breath control, one pointedness of mind, physical strength, balance etc. (Silatyogi)

7. To create a festive atmosphere to trade techniques and learn from the best students, sort of like public demonstrations of silat skill (Kiai Carita)

8. Good material for writing books - Tom Clancy's Net Force !!!


Okay - my contributions to the thread are:

9. I agree with Silatyogi in point 6. above, and I would like to expand on this slightly.

Have you ever seen Tai Chi people practicing their forms? Or Wing Chun practitioners practicing the first form Siu Lim Tau? They perform the motions slowly but with focused intent, in doing so they help train their "muscle memory" and learn the appropriate positions and body mechanics of the movements. This is so that in the heat of combat, correct form can be "remembered" and pulled out when it matters most.

I practice Siu Lim Tao a couple of times a day at least, up to 4-5 times when I have enough time. After a while - I really feel that it has improved the form of my techniques, and I can pull out the moves nice & smoothly.

On Steven Benitez's Reelcombat DVD on his Wali sogo silat art he says that "People ask how we move so fast, it's like a semi-automatic machine gun" and he says something like "It's because we train slow to move fast". I think that Practicing the kembangan at a fair pace with a partner - it trains muscle memory, then in pouncing into fast action - it trains the twitch muscles to react fast to an opponent's movement.

10. I agree with 2,3,4 and 5 above. I would like to expand on this:

Kembangan is also an energy efficient means to prepare for combat. In sport karate, TKD, boxing and Tomoi, opponents sparring in the ring tend to shuffle from front stance to back stance. In kembangan however, the opponents are grounded (most of the time) and constantly shifting, while training their peripheral vision (not looking directly at their opponent). This puts them in a ready state to respond to multiple opponents.

11. The myth of creation.

Have you ever seen house cats fight? First they move in slowly, evaluating the other cat, sizing up the opponent, using peripheral vision only (they don't look each other in the eye) because animals may fight in packs then burst into ferocious action.

I think because silat came from the jungles, the old silat masters watched how animals fight. This is just like the creation myth of wing chun kung fu - where the nun Ng Mui was watching a crane fight with a snake, and these animal movements generated ideas which were then incorporated into her martial art. Praying mantis style kung fu looks like praying mantis fighting as well.

So I think part of kembangan is to emulate how animals fight in the wild - because of peripheral vision, strategies in evaluating opponents and to conserve strength for actual fighting.




I apologise in advance - I am not a persilat yet, my observations may be a little more than wrong.

[pete_e]

Just a quick question - is there any difference between kembangan and tari?

Respect

[Garuda]

Yes,

Tari is not the same as kembangan. Tari means dancing, the movements displayed do not (need to) have to be related to MA techniques.

In kembangan all the movements are related to MA techniques.

Garuda...

[pakehraja]

Salam to all,
I had just posted my experience in Kembangan on another thread, and just realized it should be here as well. Anyway in the article I mentioned the actual word we use is 'tari'. ALthough the literal meaning is 'dance', as Garuda rightly stated. BUt it does not go that way. In Malaysia, the word kembangan is rarely used, if at all. I just used the word 'kembangan' in the article since it seems to be the term widely known on the internet. In Malaysia, kembangan is widely known as, tari(dance), bunga(flower) or sembah (worship). This might differ between different perguruans. (Notice the relationship between bunga(flower) and kembangan(blossom)) Maybe other Malaysians can correct or add on this. The art of dancing, void of martial art, we call 'tarian' or 'joget'. e.g. tarian zapin, tarian inang, joget pahang, etc.
I hope this help
Thank you
Salam

[pete_e]

Well I guess that explains why what I know as Tari fits perfectly with the description of Kembangan in this thread!

Thanks

[Wali]

Salam to all,
I had just posted my experience in Kembangan on another thread, and just realized it should be here as well. Anyway in the article I mentioned the actual word we use is 'tari'. ALthough the literal meaning is 'dance', as Garuda rightly stated. BUt it does not go that way. In Malaysia, the word kembangan is rarely used, if at all. I just used the word 'kembangan' in the article since it seems to be the term widely known on the internet. In Malaysia, kembangan is widely known as, tari(dance), bunga(flower) or sembah (worship). This might differ between different perguruans. (Notice the relationship between bunga(flower) and kembangan(blossom)) Maybe other Malaysians can correct or add on this. The art of dancing, void of martial art, we call 'tarian' or 'joget'. e.g. tarian zapin, tarian inang, joget pahang, etc.
I hope this help
Thank you
Salam

Hi pakehraja,

While this may be the case in Malaysia, the term Kembangan is widely used in Indonesia. I know some Malay silat players that refer to it as Bunga, and such, but Kembangan is widely associated with the Martial dance of Pencak Silat,

Cheers,
Wali

[pakehraja]

Thanks Wali,
agreed, we are refering to the same thing, just different names between Malaysia and indonesia. And I also understand, it have been accepted among international MA community that the word kembangan is the term to refer to the martial art phenomenon, that was why I used it myself. I thought It might just be of help for visitors to Malaysia to know this. For they might be surprise if they mention kembangan, and nobody seems to know it.
Salam
Thanks
Pakehraja

[Wali]

hehe.. good point. I guess that sometimes the lack of knowing the local language can raise some eyebrows from the locals, and maybe even a chuckle or two... :p

[hottdogg]

Just put my opinion here...sorry if a little bit OOT.

Do you know what "pencak" means in pencak silat?
The literal mean is war dancing . Well from that you can say: fighting with graceful move, dancing while fighting, fighting while dancing, whatever. Someting like that..hope you get the point.
So, kembangan is an applied pencak.
One more thing.. some people say "pentjak". It is an old term. Use "pencak" instead. And spell that 'c' like in chat,chin,etc.
Indonesia has something called "Ejaan Yang Disempurnakan" or Revised Spelling. This mean that the old language structure (especially the alphabet thing) has been deprecated since early 70's, I guess.
Sorry, for my poor english :)

Thx..
note:I'm Indonesian, is there any Indonesian here?

[Kiai Carita]

Hi pakehraja, While this may be the case in Malaysia, the term Kembangan is widely used in Indonesia. I know some Malay silat players that refer to it as Bunga, and such, but Kembangan is widely associated with the Martial dance of Pencak Silat,Cheers,Wali

The term kembangan is widely used in Jawa (East, Central and West), and because Jawa has the most silat styles, it is correct to say that kembangan is most widely used in Indonesia. However if you go to Sumatra, the word silat bunga or silat seni might be more common, as it is in the Bugis silat as well. As the silat that has gone global is mostly from Jawa, the word kembangan has become part of the global silat glossary.

Some find this rather amusing as rarely have you meet a westerner able to pronounce the word kembangan. Recently I have spoken to a Bugis pendekar and was told that kembangan does not exist in Bugis silat. For the same thing they call it silat seni, art-silat, and often use music from the lesung and alu rice husking mortar and pestle.

Hormat,
Kiai Carita

[tellner]

Whatever words we use for it I think we all know what we're talking about, Kiai.

There are functions of what-we'll-call-kembangan-for-convenience which I don't think anyone has mentioned yet.

1) It prevents combat. If you watch animals you'll see that there are lots of behaviors which are designed to prevent fights. When lions show up wildebeest start stotting. They jump and caper around which shows the lions that these are fast, fit wildebeest. Go hunt somewhere else. Really dangerous animals have all sorts of displays to warn off others. Bears rear up. Elephants flap their ears. Snakes open their mounts. Rattlesnakes rattle. Dogs bristle and bark. Cats lay back their ears and hiss.

These all say "This is how dangerous I am. You don't want to mess with me." Usually it's enough.

In the kembangan you can display your skill. If it's real, not rhythmic gymnastics routines with compulsory floor exercises in a sarong, people can tell who's better. Everyone can bow out with honor. Nobody gets hurt. It's all good.

2) If the players are evenly enough matched they can engage in the inner game - showing false weaknesses, holding back a little, appearing to be a slightly different style than they actually fight with, that sort of good stuff. The encounter starts before the hands cross for the first time.

3) It gives the spectators a chance to size up the talent and place bets :)

[Kiai Carita]

Whatever words we use for it I think we all know what we're talking about, Kiai.

There are functions of what-we'll-call-kembangan-for-convenience which I don't think anyone has mentioned yet.

1) It prevents combat. If you watch animals you'll see that there are lots of behaviors which are designed to prevent fights. When lions show up wildebeest start stotting. They jump and caper around which shows the lions that these are fast, fit wildebeest. Go hunt somewhere else. Really dangerous animals have all sorts of displays to warn off others. Bears rear up. Elephants flap their ears. Snakes open their mounts. Rattlesnakes rattle. Dogs bristle and bark. Cats lay back their ears and hiss.

These all say "This is how dangerous I am. You don't want to mess with me." Usually it's enough.

:)

Dear Tell, what-we-call-kembangan-for-convinience is now an even longer word but lets use it anyway...although bunga is shorter, means the same as kembangan and still has that exotic ng for to tangle toungues.

I agree that your observation of animals is relevant in the discussion of what-we-call-kembangan-for-convinience, in fact it might be one of the important functions of kembangan. I suppose here youre talking about what-we-call-kembangan-for-convinience as the early stages of an aggresive encounter that might break into a life-or-death fight, rather than an exercise done while training.

It is interesting that although everyone from lager-louts to Muhammad Ali does these posturing and gesturing motions designed to warn away the enemy, some pesilat study this phase of confrontation and develop it artfully. Agression and fear is chanelled and transformed into readiness.

Hormat,
Kiai Carita.

[tellner]

That's right, during an encounter rather than during training. A display before an encounter reaches the point of no return can prevent violence while letting the participants save face.

According to my teacher's teacher that sort of thing used to happen at more-or-less friendly get togethers. People would show their bunga. A lot of times people would decide to fight or not based on what they saw. And again, it let the onlookers make better guesses about whom to bet on :)

[SilatSeeker]

Funny story on "deceiving" with kembangan...

After graduating highschool, my teacher and some of his friends learned of a Setia Hati player and decided to take lessons from him. They showed up to his house and were not impressed. He was in his 70's.

They were all wrestlers and boxers. Pretty strong. The first thing he did was come up and pushes on their chest and says, "Why do you need a martial art, you are very strong - you don't need me to teach you."

They insist they really want to learn, so he tells them to follow along and do what he does. The first thing he does is start moving in these beautiful, flowing movements - very tai chi like. They all mumble amoung themselves that they've been had... a waste of their money.

One of them ask for a more convincing demonstration. The guru looks at him, takes a puff on his cigaratte, the pushes on his chest again. He says, "You are young and strong, I'm an old man. Will it be okay with you if I don't hold back."

Of course, like a lamb to the slaughter, the young buck says, "hit as hard as you want."

The Setia man placed his cigaratte behind his ear and had the guy attack. My teacher said attacking him was like trying to grab a shadow. He dropped the guy hard. Then the guru invited the others to take their turn. My teacher said he tried to grapple the guy - when he went for him, he'd vanished, the guy had dropped the ground and then kicked upwards into his plexes- he said it was like getting kicked by a mule. The kick dropped him to his knees and took his breath.

Thus, my teacher was introduced to his first Silat teacher.

[Kiai Carita]

One of them ask for a more convincing demonstration. The guru looks at him, takes a puff on his cigaratte, the pushes on his chest again. He says, "You are young and strong, I'm an old man. Will it be okay with you if I don't hold back."
...
Of course, like a lamb to the slaughter, the young buck says, "hit as hard as you want."
....
The Setia man placed his cigaratte behind his ear and had the guy attack.
Thus, my teacher was introduced to his first Silat teacher.

Silatseeker, is this story funny because the pendekar burnt the back of his ear with his cigarrette?

Rayahu,
Kiai Carita.

[SilatSeeker]

Sigh.

It's funny because the instructor burnt the arrogant student.

[Narrue]

Is it possible that kembangan actually was not native to Indonesia but was developed from Indian dance? http://manipuri.20m.com

[Gajah Silat]

I think we actually underestimate the amount of trade and cultural...er difusionalism that took place in Asia, or the rest of the Old world while we on about it!

I've seen Langkah-ish steps in almost all Asian traditional dance.

That area of India is very interesting, Meghalaya, Nagaland, Mizoram etc, although you need a special govt. permit to get into some states. There is a lot of cultural mixing in the area, many of the peoples being of Burmo-Tibetan or Mon-Khmer descent.

I remember getting very drunk with 4 Mizo girls in Cherapunjee, the wettest place on the planet :) Very attractive are Mizo girls :love:

Anyway, I digress. You've got me all nostalgic now :rolleyes:

I think it was Narayan, though I could be wrong, who said of Indonesia, "India is everywhere but I do not see it"!

Point being, there are always Langkah type steps in depictions of the Ramayana.

I would rather say 'influenced by' than 'developed from' Indian dance.

[Narrue]

"Manipuri dance is purely religious and its aim is a spiritual experience"

Is this not also the goal of kembangan?

When one does kembangan with a partner before a fight I think the kembangan is used more to tune in or lock on to your opponent and to display your martial arts knowlage.

When one does kembangan for religious reasons would I be correct in thinking that it should not be done with a partner and that there would not be an emphasis on martial display?

[asli]

salam,

kembangan/bunga/seni or equivalent to it are there for a purpose..maybe depends on the aliran. some think it's useless, some think it's so so, some take it very seriously..every moves in kembangan/bunga/seni should be applicable in real combat situations..those tari silat/bunga sembah/seni/kembangan may seems enjoyable to watch, but those are also the same movements that are used in real fight..maybe some will disagree, but like i stated before, it all depends on the aliran/teacher that we are devoted to.. :cool:

there are those who fights using seni/bunga sembah/kembangan (of course, not every pesilat can do this)..im sure some of us(either those who are just reading or the one who contributes in this forum) have seen or used it(kembangan/seni in a real fight).

and those on a higher level, also use the same moves of kembangan/seni/bunga sembah when dueling/competing against each other using tenaga dalam..

ah, me and my supertition again..

[Garuda]

In our style the kembangan are not useless. For us the kembangan comprises all the techniques, that you can use in a real fight. And we therefore do not see the kembangan as a dance, but more as a series of movements in which the techniques are hidden. Some techniques are very obvious, but others are much less obvious.

Garuda...

[fire cobra]

can anyone describe any experiences they may have had when practicing their kembangan?,how about the length of time you practise your kembangan for,breathing paterns etc,thank you in anticipation :)

[Narrue]

Does anyone know if there is a practice in silat which involves doing a type of movement/dance over a circular geometric pattern marked on the ground, a type of moving meditation involving breathing exercise and stepping in a peculiar manner? I dont think it would be classed as kembangan but it is a type of a dance I guess.

[Orang Jawa]

Selamat Wali,
The Kembagang is CRUCIAL for anyone learning silat. The problem is that many schools don't have a proper understanding of this aspect of the art.
*****************
I respectfully disagree, Kembangan or bunga-bunga are artistics movements that some have offensive/defensive value, some just borrow the silat techniques to make it looks artisticts or gymnastic show. With gendang of course..:) Wayan Orang or Ketoprak for example.

>At it's essence, the Kembagang is the place where you bring all your silat together. A good silat man will be able to determine what another really knows by observing their kembangan.
**************
Disagree on the first one and agree the later.

>The Kembangan also raises a persons awareness, and if properly trained, greatly enhances peripheral perception, inreasing the effectiveness of fighting multiple opponents. It also helps with the alignment of the body, ensuring that correct posture and movement are perfected.
**********
Kembangan or bunga-bunga is just it, bunches of flowery moves..:)
Think about an apple trees, they start with pulp (basic), flower (movements) and Apple (technique). Is not all flowers to became apple, right?

>On a more spiritual level, it enables us to develop a deeper connection with the Creator, fellow man and Mother Earth. It enhances our perception of everything around us, and allows us to discern things better.
**********
I don't know about spiritual level, but you can impress audiences with that moves, and you may have a date after ;)

>There is a lot more to the Kembagang than just flowery, dancy movements, but you need to go to a teacher that really knows it.
**********
Finally Wally, we both agree on this one! :)

>I have given you an extremelly basic explanation, as there is a lot more to it, but it's something that you are better of experiencing rather than reading about.
*************
Again, I'm agree with you! Silat is about doing and NOT about talking!
And I can be wrong too,
Tristan