Can karate kata can be internal ala taiji

[DAT]

OK I've been in the arts for awhile mostly Chinese arts and now I'm exploring Isshinryu. I still do Taiji (37 short) and often wondered whether traditional kata could be used theraputically ala the internal arts.

I asked this question to alot of people and no one really had a satisfactory answer. Then I took a seminar with William de Thours. Uncle Bill and I had a discussion about this and he agreed that done slowly with rythmic breathing in concert with the movement, that yes karate kata can be internal and theraputic.

That makes sense to me but I forgot to ask him something. Aren't the movements of Taiji designed to stimulate specific organs and meridians. It's not just the pace of the movement and the breathing but how the movement is performed and the sequence of the movements. I once wrote internal master Earl Montaigue and talked to him about my type II diabetes. Since he is a type I and has done a lot of research in this area he said that his Qi Disruption forms specifically target the organs in the lower back (kidney & liver) that Chinese believe are directly responsible with the cause and effect of this dreaded disease. The deep bending postures, I was told, directly work and stimulate the kidney and liver. BTW, I went to my mailbox one day and there was Qi Disruption tapes 12 & 13. A gift from Earl sent from his then Aussie home. I'll always have a soft spot for him for that unsolicited gesture.

So in summation, Uncle Bill says yes, slow down the kata and breath with the movements and kata can become taiji. On the other hand Earl Montaigue has forms which have movements that he claims stimulate specific parts of the body. So is Taiji just slow martial movements or are the movements also designed to stimulate specific bodily functions, organs and meridians? Now obviously any body movement has some benefit but the question remains is a slow rythmic breathing kata equal to taiji in terms of the derived health benefits.

[gojuman]

I'm not familiar with Tiaji so I can not make any comparison. I can tell you that under the right tutalage and with the proper practice karate is an internal art form. Sanchin and Tenshoa for example are two kata in karate that are of an internal nature.

[nzric]

The question comes down to whether you believe in chi.

Put it this way - the following is proven through TCM and Western scientific tests... tai chi helps with:
- Meditation, focus and concentration
- Muscle memory
- Internal balance and power generation (from correct body alignment)
- Economy of movement
- Misdirection and deceptive movement (on a martial side)
- Circulation through gentle exercise/workout
- Strengthening core power (as with pilates) and repairing damage done by other sports
- etc

On the more mystical side, tai chi is said to be a moving qigong. If you believe in it, tai chi leads the chi around the body in the correct way (stages of the form), focusing on different organs/problems.

From a western scientific pov this makes sense. I feel (just my opinion) your karate teacher has the wrong idea. Moving slowly doesn't mean you're doing tai chi - tai chi is set up to emphasise body alignment and focus on healing parts of the body... a simple example is when you do lung qigong the movement makes you pay attention to your posture, open the chest cavity and use controlled breathing (among other things). Whether you think it's just physiological benefit or if your chi is fixing you, it works.

Tai chi emphasises health, and the movements have been intricately planned for the full physiological benefits. It's not simply a matter of doing whatever you're doing more slowly.

[moononthewater]

From my limited knowledge Chi moves when you move so if you are moving your chi has to move with it. So it should not matter if you are moving fast or slow you will be moving chi around the body in kata. All of your waist movements of which there will be alot in kata will be massaging the internal organs again moving chi. Stances or certain movements of arms and legs will be opening, shutting, squeezing or massaging the meridians. So kata will effect the chi in your body maybe not in a specific manner as in Tai Chi but it will cause Chi to move. One drawback though is that Chi stagnates with tension which kata can also have alot of.

[DAT]

"tai chi is set up to emphasise body alignment and focus on healing parts of the body"


So what came first the martial intent or the healing intent or was it done in union with each other? My personal belief, with no evidence but intuition and speculation, is that the the originators of the various Taiji forms first took martial application and arranged the movements with some sort of understanding of how the specific moves and sequence resulted in Qigong or chi cultivation. Also Taiji is Qigong but Qigong is not necessarily Taiji.

I realize dynamic tension kata were designed for health, ki cultivation and body strengthening. But I don't mean to include these kata in the discussion. I'm specifically talking about Okinawan kata of which I am familar.

[nzric]

You won't find a definite answer as to what came first. The bottom line is tai chi changes so much each generation that the emphasis changes (martial/health) depending on which master carried/s on the art.

Tai chi, that is the art of "cotton boxing" which Yang Lu Chan carried out of the Chen village and popularised, is very recent (about 150 years old), therefore it has the benefit of both a history of TCM and also a martial style which is set up to counter other modern styles.

However, moving meditation, qigong and exercises linked to chinese medicine/philosophy go back thousands of years, so it's difficult to pin down. it's sort of like asking when "real wrestling" began in the west - some would say it was with the greeks, some would say it was with the gracies.

[aml01_ph]

As far as I know from doing shotokan and shorin ryu for at least 10 years, I would have to say no.

They are good exercise though.

[soggycat]

I still do Taiji (37 short) and often wondered whether traditional kata could be used theraputically ala the internal arts.


I suppose that if you can go thru your Katas with following modifications:

1. Keep muscles relaxed and loose
2. Apply no force
3. Do not " Ki-Ai !"
4. Still your mind
5. Remove all hard blocks , substitue them with circular re-directions
6. Remove all high or hard kicks
7.For all kicks and punches , never 'lock' the joint

then you would have restored External Art Karate into one with more Internal character together with all it's theraupeutic benefits, chi cultivation, calm mind and body.

There are just too many stories of people who suffer arthritis, nerve damge from all that stamping and hard punching characteristic of TKD, Karate Shaolin.
Yeah I personally met some of these victims in my IMA class...they are External arts refugees with 30+ years experience in Karate, Shaolin etc..

You have heard that it was been medically proven that Tai Chi is therapeutic for Arthirithis ? In Sydney this is promoted by westerern trained Medical doctor , Dr. Paul Lam : http://www.taichiproductions.com/

and featured in CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/03/12/tai.chi/index.html

[Eero]

There is a well known and respected Finnish Karate/Yang Style Taiji/Yi Quan teacher who has written much about this. Sadly all those texts are in Finnish. He writes that some of the traditional katas are in fact Qiqong exercises. For some reason the Japanese Karate does not include all the traditional aspects of kata.

[Visage]

I would say any external art, from Karate to Kick Boxing, can be practiced internally.
And any internal art can be practiced externally.

[DAT]

"There is a well known and respected Finnish Karate/Yang Style Taiji/Yi Quan teacher who has written much about this. Sadly all those texts are in Finnish."

Well it seems someone has already done the work, is there a site? Please let me know if you remember. Someone has to be able to translate.

[Eero]

"There is a well known and respected Finnish Karate/Yang Style Taiji/Yi Quan teacher who has written much about this. Sadly all those texts are in Finnish."


Well it seems someone has already done the work, is there a site? Please let me know if you remember. Someone has to be able to translate.

This is a link to his site. It's in Finnish. :D He has written a couple of books. They are in Finnish too. I seriously doubt you can understand anything. Finnish is quite difficult language. http://www.uta.fi/~fitikl/zenshindojo/

[Nyx]

I would say yes, kata practised slowly and with less power, but still with kime. I have tryed it and seems to work in a similar way to taiji. The main difference is the kime, karate has the tempory tensing of the muscles at the end of a movement, taiji has none. The continulation and some of the more circulair movments are very similair.
In princable it should be possable to preform kata in the way you described, as long as you understand the theory of taiji.

[alienlovechild]

The basic principle of Taiji, for me, is that when one part of the body moves the whole body moves. It is from this that I gained an experience of Qi. Karate katas do not move this way, and I never did experience Qi, or what I now call Qi, when doing one [actually, they were Taekwondo katas - I did Taekwondo for about 3 years - but they are much the same as Karate katas, I believe].

I don't 'believe' in Qi. Qi is the name I give to something that I experience. When you move the body in the way above something in the 'bodily unconscious,' I would argue, gets unlocked. This is because conscious movement blends into unconscious movement - i.e. moving the hand causes all sorts of other changes [of energy] to happen in the body, which in turn cause the movement of the hand to change into something else.

No, external arts like Kickboxing cannot be done internally. Taiji done externally is Taiji done wrong.

[cloudz]

Another couple of important areas missing are the way weight is shifted around in taiji, and the kwa which is felt in the moves. instead of a tensing of the muscles, you kind of stretch, twist and squeeze. when i say squeese its not really a squeese of particular muscle area - the whole body is involved, especially the centre. Its like you squeese out the end of the movement and then relax to go into the next.
If that element is missing, I doubt you would get any martial benefit from doing taiji form.

If you look at this from a non mystical piont of view what the taiji form allows you to do is harness kinetic energy from the ground and use every part of your body in an extremely efficient way - including the opening and closing of joints to manifest the power into your strike for example. This just scratches the surface though - theres so much more...

It is training your body from the inside out, comparing to a Karate kata is like comparing a ferrari to a skoda :D

Sure you could modify the skoda but it will never be a ferrari...

[Buddy]

Forget about qi. What makes "internal" different from "external" is its use of whole body power. So if your kata features a technique where only part of the body moves then it would not be internal by my definition. I think what would happen if you tried to internalize it is the kata would have to be altered so that WBP is used.

[jonmonk]

I would think though that this must have occurred to the people of Okinawa or Japan who were studying/developing karate. I was under the impression that TCM was common in Japan (doesn't Shiatsu come from Japan?) and I would therefore assume that it was practiced in Okinawa too although I'm prepared to be totally wrong! When I look at a kata like Tensho, as someone mentioned earlier, it does appear to be much more of an 'energy building' type kata. Also, I think that forms that promote healing would be of special importance to people studying external martial arts after all, they, more than most, have a reason for staying fit. If this was the primary means by which people stayed healthy then it would seem to me that it is highly likely that kata are used for internal purposes too. Of course, they might have practiced Tai Chi as well! In many (most?) styles prevalent today the 'true meanings' of the moves are not known. We're more interested in hitting each other than self-healing. Hardly surprising that this aspect (if it was ever there) has been lost.

[wingchunner]

I would say, no, Karate practiced slow is not "Tai Chi". However, if you practice Karate slowly it might be possible to acheive some internal development.

I liked what Liu Jingru said about internal/external on his website:
Quote:

Q9. Chinese Kung Fu contains "External" and "Internal" Kung Fu . What is the difference between the two ?
A. In the past in China , Siou Lam ( Shaolin ) styles were called "External" systems . The Wu Tang styles were called "Internal" systems . But it's not that simple . Generally , the difference between "External" and "Internal" Kung Fu is that the "External" system put more emphasis on training the muscles , the bones and the skin - with jumps , powerful movements and the use of yells in order to produce power in their techniques . The "Internal" Kung Fu systems put more emphasis on exercising the tendons , the internal organs and the internal energy . Their movements are slow , relaxed , flowing and calm , and in battle , force against force is not used . We can say that in the "External" system we begin training from the external part of the body , from the hard way of fighting and we proceed towards the soft . This is more suitable for strong , young people .
The "Internal" system starts from the inside of the body , from the soft way of fighting and proceeds towards the hard . However this system is suitable for people of all ages .
Generally whether you want to become good in the "External" or "Internal" Kung Fu , you must learn to combine the soft with the hard and you must train "externally" as well as "internally" . There are two sides to everything - you cannot overemphasize the one while ignoring the other . This is why we must understand our body , our physical condition , our personal abilities and needs , to use the "Internal" and the "External" Kung Fu training in order to find our balance .

So, can you practice Karate "internally" I would say "yes", but then are you training the way that the Karate techniques should be used? I don't believe so. In every martial art there is some internal and some external. It is difficult to go from external to internal. It takes a while to retrain the mind and body to work together internally. Not only that, it takes a good teacher with understanding of how to cultivate the internal for the practitioner to understand what is correct and what is not.

You can email me if you need more information.

Martin Yoder

[DAT]

All good points on the external vs internal aspects. However the other part of my original question was the specific moves in Taiji and their sequence. In other words are the moves designed to stimulate different organs of the body or are the benefits more general due to relaxation and improved circulation. And just to add onto that theme are the sequences in the moves designed for that stimulation or are they arranged to bette suit a martial application.

I go back to the example I gave earlier in the thread where Earl Montaigue sent me some Qi Disruption forms because I had mentioned to him that I had diabetes. Since he also is diabetic he sent the #11 & #12 forms which had a lot of deep stances and bending which he claimed worked the liver and kidneys which the Chinese feel is the real culprit when it comes to diabetes. Again specific moves and sequences versus an overall health benefit? And where does the martial fit in, as a primary consideration or was it an afterthought to suit an already existing routine?

[Matt_Bernius]

My take: maybe.

As some have pointed out there is a heck of a lot more to Tai Chi than simply moving slowly. So simply doing Kata slowly isn't going to be enough.

That being said internal v. external is a bs distinction (hard/soft is probably more appropriate). And there are certain Okinawan forms of Karate (Goju as an example) whose forms lend themselves to this type of exploration more than others (Japanese Shotokan for example).

- Matt

[Buddy]

Sorry Matt but I disagree completely. White Crane can be "soft", Judo can be "soft" but unless they use the particular "body method' of whole body power they are soft but not internal. For a MA to be internal it must have pengjin throughout.

[gojuman]

Sorry Matt but I disagree completely. White Crane can be "soft", Judo can be "soft" but unless they use the particular "body method' of whole body power they are soft but not internal. For a MA to be internal it must have pengjin throughout.
Have to agree with Matt. As a Goju stylist I can tell you for a fact that what I am being taught is an internal system. I can not however say that pengjin is part of what we do because we do not utilize such terminology. But, a rose is still a rose if called by any other name applies here.
Internal does not refer to the softness of Goju, but to the practice of the breathing and mental focus practiced in many of the Kata both hard and soft.
Unfortunately I can not argue points of "pengjin" because that particular emphasis is not made. Rather through the practice of kata like sanchin and tenshoa we are taught of the inner benefits to our bodies. What I have been taught has to do with circulation and oxygenation of the body. There are not specifics taught about whether one motion effects the liver while another effects the kidney for instance, but more so the total benefits to the entire body.
Additionaly, for some one to say that another art is not internal because their own understanding is limited to their own system can not be considered to be an accurate sytem. For instance. It would be just as wrong for me to say that tai chi has not fighting capabilities because there is no emphasis on sparring.
Internal vs External. Inner focus of energy vs outer accrobatic motion. Perhaps that would be a good explanation.

[Buddy]

"Have to agree with Matt. As a Goju stylist I can tell you for a fact that what I am being taught is an internal system."

Having began my study of martial arts about thirty years ago with the study of an Okinawa-te style I can assure you are most definately NOT studying an internal system. Goju might be "soft/hard" but it relies on localized motion and body hardening techinques. These are decidedly NOT apart of IMA

"I can not however say that pengjin is part of what we do because we do not utilize such terminology. But, a rose is still a rose if called by any other name applies here."

No, these are apples and oranges

"Internal does not refer to the softness of Goju, but to the practice of the breathing and mental focus practiced in many of the Kata both hard and soft."

As I said, many styles have an "internal" componant to them in that they have some sort of qigong (in this case breath skill) set.

"Unfortunately I can not argue points of "pengjin" because that particular emphasis is not made."

And just as unfortunate is the fact that the underlying structure of all IMA is that pengjin.

"Rather through the practice of kata like sanchin and tenshoa we are taught of the inner benefits to our bodies. What I have been taught has to do with circulation and oxygenation of the body. There are not specifics taught about whether one motion effects the liver while another effects the kidney for instance, but more so the total benefits to the entire body."

And personally I find that worrying about how this affects that in my viscera is a waste of time.That's not what I'm referring to.

"Additionaly, for some one to say that another art is not internal because their own understanding is limited to their own system can not be considered to be an accurate sytem."

Here you create a false arguement and respond to that. I DO know about your style and know from experience that it is not an internal martial art. As I said what makes a style internal is it's use of whole body power using the supporting structure pengjin. I could show you quite readily the difference. This is the problem, it has to be shown.

"For instance. It would be just as wrong for me to say that tai chi has not fighting capabilities because there is no emphasis on sparring."

No, you make the assumption that all taji schools don't spar.

"Internal vs External. Inner focus of energy vs outer accrobatic motion. Perhaps that would be a good explanation."

No, that would be a bad explanation. The difference is using localized motion and muscular action vs a relaxed, extended and aligned-with-gravity structure to apply whole body power.
PS while I practice Taiji a little my main system is Baguazhang.

[jonmonk]

I've been searching the web for a definition of 'pengjin' but turned up nothing. Any chance quick description because I'm now very curious?

[Buddy]

Hi Jon,
There isn't a word for it in English. We might say it is what makes a boat float in water, in that sort of supporting manner. This isn't really what peng means but a poor example. But it might help a little. If one were to be in a fighting stance and put the arm in a hook punch position; and a partner were to push his weight into the fist of that punch, generally the pressure would be felt in the shoulder. We can then push from that shoulder into the punch to "ward off" the incoming pressure. This would be an example of localized motion.
If, on the other hand, one were to drop the elbow so that it faced the floor (aligning with gravity), relax and extend the connective tissue of the whole body into the fist, the pressure being brought to bear could then be felt in the feet. The more one relaxes those postural muscles not required for the action and lengthens the soft tissue into the fist, the more pressure can be "warded off" quite comfortably.

[Matt_Bernius]

Having began my study of martial arts about thirty years ago with the study of an Okinawa-te style I can assure you are most definately NOT studying an internal system. Goju might be "soft/hard" but it relies on localized motion and body hardening techinques. These are decidedly NOT apart of IMAI have seen people integrate aspects of the Jins/Jings into their Goju. But, perhaps as I didn't make clear enough in my first post, it's not the core of the art (of any of the Karate forms).

Here you create a false arguement and respond to that. I DO know about your style and know from experience that it is not an internal martial art. As I said what makes a style internal is it's use of whole body power using the supporting structure pengjin. I could show you quite readily the difference. This is the problem, it has to be shown.Agree on the point that any form of Jin/Jing (unless I'm linking two term types that should not be linked) always has to be shown. I've seen aspect of Goju that utilize Fa Jing and full body movement. Again, it isn't the focus of the art however.

The difference is using localized motion and muscular action vs a relaxed, extended and aligned-with-gravity structure to apply whole body power.Nice way to state the distinction.

I've been searching the web for a definition of 'pengjin' but turned up nothing. Any chance quick description because I'm now very curious?
Thats probably because it's typically translated as two word "peng jin"

Try:
http://www.taichichuan.dk/Artikler/an_explanation_of.htm
http://www.taiji-qigong.de/info/articles/peng_faq.php

- Matt

[alienlovechild]

Hi Jon monk,
Also try looking for 'peng-jing.' The classics of Yang style Taiji, translated by Dougals Wile in his 'Taiji Touchstones: Yang Family Secret Transmissions' goes through all the Jings.

To the goju guy: what does Qi feel like for you? What is your experience of Qi?

Cheers

[Buddy]

Did those threads help?

[jonmonk]

Cheers for the info. Don't you just love it when you discover something like that for the first time? This is one of the reasons I love martial arts, there's so much out there to learn!