Diet: late night random thoughts

[pesilat]

This is a tangent to the recent thread: "Mother doing atkin's diet."

If you're interested in reading about my personal weight loss story, visit http://guild-hall.com/diet_pics

However, here are some things about the diet scene (at least in America) that I've noticed since I started paying more attention to such things last year.

There are a lot of obese people in America. I'm not talking about people who are just overweight and could stand to lose a few pounds. I'm talking about people who are seriously rotund and whose health is at risk because of it.

My wife is a Weight Watchers member (I'm not much of a joiner so I just used her materials to figure out the point system and did it on my own). She goes to the meetings and she tells me about some of the people there.

I talk to various people online and in person about dieting.

A lot of people want to lose weight ... but they don't want to work for it. It's the same attitude I find in martial arts (and I'm sure we've all run into it). "Just give me a pill or something that'll do all the work for me."

There is no magic pill, shake, or otherwise that's going to do all the work for you. Supplements can be helpful in balancing the diet. Getting the nutrients without added calories/fat/carbs/etc. But they're not a magic bullet.

I'll speak from the perspective of the Weight Watcher's points system because that's what I'm most familiar with. Basically, you get a certain number of points per day. The points are calculated based on calories, fat, and fiber. How many points you're allotted in a day depends on your height and weight (though there's also room for some personalization if you're losing weight too fast or too slow).

At this point, I have 27 points per day. The goal isn't to eat only 20 points per day. If I do that, I'll lose weight ... but it probably won't be healthy. The goal is to come as close to 27 as I can without going over.

Now, 27 points of food isn't really a lot of food. If everything I ate were fat free and without fiber, then 27 points would only be about 1350 calories per day. Throw 10 grams of fat in there, and I'm down to about 1300 calories. Throw 10 grams of fiber in there, and I'm up to 1400 calories (fiber is a good thing ... the body has to work harder to process fiber so it burns extra calories in doing so). But, even still, 1400 calories isn't a lot of food. But, basically, this gives a good basis for what should be eaten. Low calorie, low fat, high fiber ... this combination will mean you get to eat more food.

But it's still not a lot of food. If I stay right around 27 points per day, I will lose weight. It may happen quickly, but it'll probably happen slowly. Nonetheless, though, I'm going to feel deprived because I'm not eating much food.

That's where exercise comes in. If I spend 5 minutes doing heavy workout (i.e.: sprinting, running a vigorous form, sparring, grappling, etc), then I get another point. If I spend 10 minutes doing moderate exercise (i.e.: walking, running a not-so-vigorous form, light sparring, drills), I get 1 point. If I spend 20 minutes of light exercise (i.e.: leisurely stroll, Tai Chi, etc.) I get a point.

So, if I teach a class for an hour (which is usually moderate exercise for me), I get 6 points back. 6 points can be enough for a fish and rice dinner with a granola bar as a snack. Or, it's enough to indulge in a donut.

If I go on a walk with my wife, I can rack up another 4 - 6 points. If I spar for a half hour, I've racked up another 6 points or so.

Now, suddenly, I'm not restricted to that 1400 calories / day. I'm able to eat 2000 - 2500 calories / day. I don't feel deprived at all and I'm getting exercise which keeps all my cardio, muscular, and neural functions sharp.

Without the exercise, I might lose weight, but I'd feel deprived and I wouldn't stick at it long enough to actually accomplish anything. And as soon as I stop dieting, I'll put the weight back on.

By watching my intake and getting plenty of exercise, I'm able to lose weight, thin down, and tone up. I don't feel deprived at all. Over time, this all becomes habitual. It ceases to be "a diet" and becomes "my diet." I'm not "on a diet" ... it's just the way I eat and live. Over time (within a few months), it becomes a lifestyle change.

Is it possible to lose the weight without exercise? Sure. But you gotta have an iron will to suffer through the feelings of deprivation.

So, if you're trying to lose weight, find a diet that works for you (this will help you change your eating habits). Then get off your couch and work out (this probably won't be a revelation for most people here ... and most people here probably already work out -- but if you know anyone who's trying to lose weight, pass this advice on to them).

Sorry about this long-winded ramble. It's late and I should be asleep. But this diatribe (or, maybe, it should be "diet-tribe") just wouldn't keep its peace.

Mike

[Mo Lung]

Excellent post, Pesilat.

One particular thing about your post stood out to me as the most valuable:


By watching my intake and getting plenty of exercise, I'm able to lose weight, thin down, and tone up. I don't feel deprived at all. Over time, this all becomes habitual. It ceases to be "a diet" and becomes "my diet." I'm not "on a diet" ... it's just the way I eat and live. Over time (within a few months), it becomes a lifestyle change.


This is why fad diets are next to useless.

Also, another reason not to diet but to change your lifestyle is because nutritionists, exercise gurus, health care workers, doctors, etc. are all beginning to agree on something. Fit is more important than fat. What this means is that if you are thin and unfit you are actually worse off than if you are fat (overweight) yet fit. Fit can be as little as 30 minutes of moderate to intense exercise three times a week.

The biggest lifestyle factors that pose a risk to your health include:

Sedentary lifestyle
Smoking
Obesity
Family History of heart disease, etc., etc.

The list is quite extensive. However, if the only thing on your list is a sedentary lifestyle but you are not overweight, don't smoke, etc., you are actually worse off than someone that is overweight, smokes, has a family history of heart disease, etc., but is not sedentary, when it comes to cardio/pulmonary health risks.

Therefore, weight loss without exercise is not only bad in the short term, it poses a long term health risk. Being fit is essential to being healthy, regardless of your weight. Ergo, eat well, exercise regularly and you will be healthy and almost certainly not overweight. Being in good shape is a byproduct of a healthy lifestyle, just like obesity is a byproduct of an unhealthy lifestyle.

And like Pesilat said, there are no shortcuts or magic pills. The weight watchers system is just a method of putting points onto a healthy lifestyle. You lose points as you eat and gain points as you exercise.

Just common sense, really, huh! ;)

[pesilat]

Some good points, Mo.

Yeah, before I started losing weight, I was in that fat but fit.

I'm 5'8" and, at my heaviest, I weight about 290 lbs. (For all you metric folks, that's about 173 cm and about 131 kg (or, for you "stoners", not quite 21 stone).

While, according to charts, I was "severely obese" ... I was actually in decent shape. My resting heart rate was about 74 (which is considered "average" ... for someone that much overweight, 74 is an amazing resting heart rate). I didn't move like most "severely obese" people ... in fact, most people who knew me assumed I was about 250 ("severely overweight" according to the charts).

But the charts are by no means an accurate measure for me ... or a lot of others. The charts assume average muscle mass and bone density. For people with less than average muscle mass and/or bone density, the chart will consider them underweight when they are actually at their ideal weight. For people (like me) with above average muscle mass and bone density, my "ideal" weight (according to the charts) would be unhealthy.

According to the charts, my ideal weight is about 155 lbs. I would be emaciated at that weight. Right now, I'm at about 195 and most people think I'm at about 155. My estimate is that my ideal weight is actually around 180. But 15 pounds over the ideal isn't a bad place to be.

But you're right, Mo. When I was 290, I was very fat, but still (CV speaking) fit. I could (and did) run circles around people (CV-wise) who "looked" a lot more fit than I did. Now my resting heart rate is in the upper 50s (the last time I checked, it was 57). I haven't changed anything in my exercises to improve CV ... just losing the weight made the change.

Because of my active lifestyle, I've always been very CV fit ... but at 290, CV fitness had a very different meaning than it now does at 195. I was fit then, but I was fighting a losing battle.

The reason I started losing weight was that my knees and ankles started giving me problems. At first, I chalked it up to age and heredity. Then it started affecting my MA training. At that point, I thought to myself, "Self, there's nothing we can do about the hereditary joint problems. But the weight certainly isn't helping matters. We can lose the weight."

What I realize now is that I was on a downward spiral. My weight was affecting my joints and increasing the progress of the hereditary problems. My joint problems were affecting my workouts. And, in turn, I was going to start gaining more weight because I was going to be exercising less ... my body would have forced me to exercise less because of the joint problems.

Now, I'm, literally, in the best shape of my life. I've never been this trim. But I'm still getting older. My joints still gripe more than they did 5 or 10 years ago. It takes me longer to recover from minor injuries than it did 5 or 10 years ago. And I'm only 32.

I know, now, that losing the weight was incredibly important for me. I'm going to continue getting older and my body is going to continue to slow down. But the weight would have sped up that process considerably. And the weight would have increased my risks of injury (i.e.: I fall and, because of the weight, I dislocate my knee instead of merely spraining it). And injury would have taken another toll on my ability to exercise and ... and ... and ... most likely, I would have been caught in a descending spiral and, at 55 or 60 (if I was lucky to get there) I would probably have had something serious happen that would have made my remaining years considerably more uncomfortable.

Now, at least from a health perspective, I should have another 40 or 50 years of comfortable life, instead of 30 or 40 at the outside. And, given the longevity of my family, I've probably got 50 - 60 good years left in me now that I've dumped my albatross and moved on :)

Mike

[KY23]

I got out of the Marine Corps back in '95. When I got out I was 165 lbs and 8% body fat.

Last month I was 193 lbs and 29% body fat.

I started eating low carbs. It makes me feel so good so far that I'm not considering myself on a diet..I'm going to continue to watch my carb intake.

As of this morning I'm 178 lbs and 26% body fat. I would love to be back down to 165 lbs and under 15% body fat.

I just started taking Judo/Jujitsu and working out again. The Judo workout is so intense I don't think it will take me long.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by KY23
I got out of the Marine Corps back in '95. When I got out I was 165 lbs and 8% body fat.

Last month I was 193 lbs and 29% body fat.

I started eating low carbs. It makes me feel so good so far that I'm not considering myself on a diet..I'm going to continue to watch my carb intake.

As of this morning I'm 178 lbs and 26% body fat. I would love to be back down to 165 lbs and under 15% body fat.

I just started taking Judo/Jujitsu and working out again. The Judo workout is so intense I don't think it will take me long.

Cool.

I just found an interesting site: http://www.he.net/~zone/prothd2.html

It seems to calculate body fat % and, more to the point, "ideal" weight pretty accurately (at least based on my personal estimates for myself). According to it, I'm currently at 19% body fat. My lean body mass is 158 lbs. And my "ideal" weight is about 182.

Of course, I don't know if it's that accurate or not, but it seems to jibe with my own personal estimates for myself.

I do know that my waist was 43 - 44" a couple of years ago ... now it's 34.5" ... fortunately, I wear sweats most of the time so I haven't had to spend a lot of money overhauling my wardrobe (though I have had to do some of this).

Mike

[KY23]

I purchased one of those scales that tell your body fat percentage. It sends a signal through one foot and records how fast it gets to the other foot. It seems pretty accurate compared to the Marine Corps way of measuring your waist your thighs and your neck compared to your weight.

I know it isn't full proof but its a simple way to track progress.

[KY23]

pesilat,

Thanks for that link. I went to it entered my data. According to the results I'm 17% body fat and my ideal weight is 172.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by KY23
I purchased one of those scales that tell your body fat percentage. It sends a signal through one foot and records how fast it gets to the other foot. It seems pretty accurate compared to the Marine Corps way of measuring your waist your thighs and your neck compared to your weight.

I know it isn't full proof but its a simple way to track progress.

Hey ... that sounds pretty cool. And relatively accurate. Always wondered how those scales worked, but never gave it a whole lot of thought. I may have to look into getting one of them.

Mike

[KY23]

I live in the same town you do...if you want we can hook up sometime and you can try it out before you buy one.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by KY23
I live in the same town you do...if you want we can hook up sometime and you can try it out before you buy one.

Yup. That'd be pretty cool. Also, I'm always interested in hooking up with other martial artists. Feel free to PM me, e-mail me, or call me (all my info can be found at my website at http://impactacademy.com )

Mike

[KY23]

I talked to you the other day...you have my e-mail. I'm the one that use to train with Eddie.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by KY23
I talked to you the other day...you have my e-mail. I'm the one that use to train with Eddie.

Oh yeah ... I thought that might be you.

I'll shoot you an e-mail and we can try to arrange a hook up :)

Mike

[grandmaster mat]

i have bout 1400 calories a day anyway and i still work out, is that healthy?

[pesilat]

Originally posted by grandmaster mat
i have bout 1400 calories a day anyway and i still work out, is that healthy?

Depends on your height/weight (loosely) and, more specifically, on your specific physical attributes.

Give me your height/weight/age, and I can tell you what Weight Watchers would recommend.

Mike

[grandmaster mat]

im 5'10/11, i weigh bout 9 stone 10 pounds and im 16

[pesilat]

Originally posted by grandmaster mat
im 5'10/11, i weigh bout 9 stone 10 pounds and im 16

Yup. Sounds like you're doing fine. What WW recommends would be 23 points. Which works out to abot 1150 calories per day (without any fat or fiber adjustments).

If you eat a lot of high fiber and low fat stuff, then you'd easily be in the range of 1200 - 1250 calories. If you do moderate exercise for even an hour a day, then you're looking at 1300 - 1350 calories. And that's to *lose* weight. If you're maintaining, then you could easily add another 100 - 200 calories to that and still be good.

And, of course, all the standard caveats apply: I'm not a medical professional and this is just my layman's estimate ... take it for what it's worth.

Mike

[grandmaster mat]

thanks pesilat, is there a website saying wat food is worth how many points?

[pesilat]

Originally posted by grandmaster mat
thanks pesilat, is there a website saying wat food is worth how many points?

A pretty good one is at http://dwlz.com/WWinfoTOC.html

Then, at your weight, I'd estimate that an hour of moderate exercise is about 3 points for you. An hour of heavy exersice is probably about 7 points and an hour of light exercise is probably about 2 points.

Mike

[grandmaster mat]

wel i do at least 4 hours of quite heavy martial arts every weeks, 8 hours max

[pesilat]

I hope you're not trying to lose weight? It doesn't sound like you need to lose any weight at all. Unless you've got incredibly small bones.

You might use this stuff to maintain your weight or, possibly, even to bulk up, I suppose. Though I'm not really sure it's applicable to building muscle.

But from your description, I wouldn't think that you need to lose any weight (unless I'm miscalculating your weight ... 9 stone 10 pounds = 136 pounds, right?)

Mike

[grandmaster mat]

yep thats right, im actually a reasonably muscly built lad im not all skinny, i wana loose a bit of fat near my abdomin and thats bout it

[pesilat]

Originally posted by grandmaster mat
yep thats right, im actually a reasonably muscly built lad im not all skinny, i wana loose a bit of fat near my abdomin and thats bout it

Hmm ... I think you'll have to be careful, though, not to focus so much on that little bit that you start losing muscle.

Mike

[grandmaster mat]

yea true, ill just eat sensibly i think, thanks mate, now the question is, shalll i go to work tomorrow or shal i not bother....hmmm tough choice i could do with a bit of over time

[Bon]

Cool thread, Mike.

According to that calculator, I have 18% bodyfat. :(

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Bon
Cool thread, Mike.

According to that calculator, I have 18% bodyfat. :(

LOL ... why the sad face?

Check these sites:

http://www.react.ie/Health/Healthcheck/BodyFat.htm

http://www.nutribase.com/fwchartm.shtml

According to these, 18% body fat is normal/average ... not a bad thing at all :)

Could maybe be better ... but so goes life ;) I'm perfectly content with my 19%. If I get lower, great. If not, oh well.

Mike

[Greg-VT]

In what what way is BF% measured? Can it be done from home?

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Ving Tsun
In what what way is BF% measured? Can it be done from home?

I posted a link previously in this thread that gave a method of doing it ... don't know how accurate it is, but it's better than nothing, I suppose :)

Here's the link: http://www.he.net/~zone/prothd2.html

Mike

[Greg-VT]

Yeah, I know I just saw it then. I came back to edit my post but you beat me to a reply. Sorry and Thanks.


EDIT:

Wow, 7% BF. That can't be right. I'm guessing it should be a bit more then that.
I hope I measured it right... Or maybe I hope I did'nt... lol.

[Mo Lung]

These BF% things are pretty innaccurate anyway, especially the scales and sums, etc. After all, what about fat stored on/around organs, bone girth, etc.

The sum of skin folds method is relatively accurate, but, in reality, use your eyes. Are you more ripped than before? Do tight pants now feel loose? If so, you've probably lowered your BF. ;)

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mo Lung
These BF% things are pretty innaccurate anyway, especially the scales and sums, etc. After all, what about fat stored on/around organs, bone girth, etc.

The sum of skin folds method is relatively accurate, but, in reality, use your eyes. Are you more ripped than before? Do tight pants now feel loose? If so, you've probably lowered your BF. ;)

Yup. But it does provide a thumbnail guide if nothing else.

I know that I've lost about 9" off my waist size and I can actually see definition of my muscles now. And I can see veins where I never could before. I'm far from "ripped" ... but I've definitely lost a fair amount of BF.

Mike

[YODA]

Bodyfat % should be used to monitor change- most methods outside of using a flotation tank are widely inaccurate.

I use electronic calipers and don't bother working out the %age - If the numbers go down I'm losing fat - that's good enough for me.

[Mo Lung]

Originally posted by YODA
Bodyfat % should be used to monitor change- most methods outside of using a flotation tank are widely inaccurate.

I use electronic calipers and don't bother working out the %age - If the numbers go down I'm losing fat - that's good enough for me.

Dead right. The % thing is kinda useless. If your sum of skin folds was 50mm and now it's 40mm, then you've lost some subcutaneous fat. What more do you need to know?

;)

[khafra]

Originally posted by grandmaster mat
yep thats right, im actually a reasonably muscly built lad im not all skinny, i wana loose a bit of fat near my abdomin and thats bout it

Aw, man... If people still don't believe that changing your metabolism from glycogen based to ketone based is different from just not eating enough, I know I'm gonna catch hell for this, but... *buckles up asbestos gi*

To do the impossible--to spot-reduce adipose tissue-there's only one method I know of. It involves a percutaneous application of yohimbine hydrochloride while in ketosis or a caloric deficit.

In other words, the alkaloids of the Yohimbe root are a selective beta 2 receptor agonist, and alpha 2 receptor antagonist. Beta 2 receptors, when stimulated, tell adipocytes to release their fat stores for energy, alpha 2 receptors tell the fat to stay put. So when you combine yohimbine hcl with something like maybe menthol and a little dimethyl sulfoxide to get it through the skin, it'll cause fat to be burned preferentially from the area to which it's applied.

Now, it's no magic bullet. If you don't burn the calories once they're freed, they'll be redeposited--and probably right back where they were sitting before. But does actually have an effect on local fat, unlike anything else--mostly local diuretics--marketed as cream that'll "melt the fat away."

Only other thing I could suggest for losing that last bit of fat and keeping the muscle without a ketogenic diet is leptigen, a kinda experimental new product from Avant Labs that increases your leptin levels, which tells your body that it's not starving, even when you reduce your calories. So it'll rob fewer amino acids and glycogen stores from your muscles.

I don't know much about how it actually works, though, so I can't help you there.

[grandmaster mat]

im 11% body fat is that good?

[TkdWarrior]

he he..... my posting on my weight loose...
ok i m 5, 10 n used to weigh around 90.3 kgs(man i shouldn't took that damn break from MA) i started working out on my weight and fat about 3-3.5 months before... hittign gym, doing cardio and i knew this wasn't going to be easy road. i was on excess of 14 kgs i guess... my ideal weight should be around 76- 77 kgs...
i m kind of person i cannot stop eating so i need to work harder than most of guys but still i kept myself away from cold drinks and oily food, but the best thing was that i was still as active as i used to be in my practicing times... i could kick high n move fast but just got fatty. my waist was 37 and right now i got it upto 33.5 inches... my resting heart rate is around in late 50's that's tells me i m in very good shape and yup ppl did noticed that... now my goal is to get my waist up to 30 and add some biceps too.
-TkdWarrior-

[Knight_Errant]

I think the 'spot reduction' man has let himself in for a flaming and it's only fair for me to give him one.

It's ********!:woo: :woo: :mad: and anyone who tells you any different is either ignorant or lying. The BMA says so.

[khafra]

*whew* Thanks, I was beginning to think nobody here knew that there's no way to spot-reduce fat.

[grandmaster mat]

wat is spot reduction?

[pesilat]

Originally posted by grandmaster mat
im 11% body fat is that good?

Absolutely.

Mike

[mikelw]

That's strange, that website did not seem accurate at all for me. I am 6'2 and weigh 185 lbs. It said that my ideal weight was 157. I would have to lose a lot of muscle mass in order to get down there!

[pesilat]

Originally posted by mikelw
That's strange, that website did not seem accurate at all for me. I am 6'2 and weigh 185 lbs. It said that my ideal weight was 157. I would have to lose a lot of muscle mass in order to get down there!

LOL ... well, nothing's perfect. It seemed accurate for my situation ... but that doesn't necessarily mean it is. And, even if it actually is accurate for me, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's accurate for you :)

Mike

[Knight_Errant]

Interesting point about diet: lots of useful things for your body, e.g. the fatty acids required for tissue growth are neglected by many bodybuilders and some martial artists. Popping a few hazelnuts now and again will supply these. There's no point bulking up on protein, which most people already eat enough of anyway, without looking after your broader diet.