Ibuki Sankai and Sanchin no Kata

[Saz]

In training the other day we did Sanchin no Kata for the first time. Its the first thing I've done in training that has Ibuki in it, and i'm finding it difficult to do. We can do it with a kiai, but its not as effective this way. Does anyone have an advice on doing this for the first time?


Osu

[Pablo]

If you mean a Kiai as I understand it (with an explosive release of pent up breath), I cannot see how that could be done in a tension form without some danger of physical problems.
I'm not too familiar with the subleties of Ibuki breathing, but in general tension work, the breath can be expended slowly, or at medium speed, or in a kind of snorting exhale, none of which 'hold' the breath per se, but they do control the manner of release. Kind of hard to communicate in print, but if you have ever pumped an old fashioned tyre pump, you can find a smooth stroke that gets the maximum return for your effort, wheras pushing harder and faster causes the pump to 'jam' and heat up, and pushing too softly and quickly doesn't get enough air. It is only a visualization, but it has been helpful to me.

paul

[Saz]

The Kiai in Kyokushinkai is more for mental benefit than phyisical. It mainly to get us to breathe properly (thus avoiding fainting etc), and is meant to encourage us to mentally endure training. Thats how I've understood it at least :)

[Pablo]

The traditional Kiai causes the body to perform a valsalva maneuver. The medical hazards of doing this while straining are quite well documented, and could include stroke and death. Power weight lifters have to be very aware of this.
In doing a tension kata, proper breathing will avoid the valsalva situation entirely, but I still wonder about the safety of a kiai in tension.

The Uechi forum had a nice discussion of doing Sanchin with proper and with improper breathing.

http://www.uechi-ryu.com/breathng.htm


For those who haven't seen Uechi-Ryu, suffice it to say that they have a passing acquaintance with the form.
;)

paul

[Melanie]

The kiai we do in our dojo (per se) is to push the breath from our hara (centre - power source) and not shout it out so much as squeeze it out (???). I have been told that if you time a kiai for the right moment you need not even touch your opponent. The force alone of the kiai and the action that led you to it (i.e. punch) makes the opponent back away/fall over. To date, I have not been able to do this unless I have had garlic, but its a start. :)

Pablo - when you say straining in the performance of the kiai, do you mean severity of kiai (shout) or muscle strain (as in pushing the kiai out) or a combination of both? I have heard of these injuries before, are some people more susceptible than others? Heart condition people, that sort of person?

Thank you.

Melanie

[Pablo]

No, I am talking about straining such as when lifting a heavy weight. Any restrictions of breathing during such exertions can send the blood pressure up.

If done properly, the tension forms like Sanchin, Hangetsu, et al. do NOT strain, and the breathing is NOT restricted. It takes some time to learn to do these properly tho.

My comment was directed at doing Sanchin while still learning (when there is a greater chance of straining) combined with the use of the Kiai DURING Sanchin. I wasn't saying that the Kiai is inherently dangerous, I was only raising a concern about prematurely doing Kiai during Sanchin in place of the Ibuki breathing. In that limited context, the other breathing patterns would seem to be safer.

Thanks

paul

[Kosokun]

KG,

I've taken instruction in Sanchin from a couple of Goju 9th dans as well as my own instructors, over the years. My style, Shito Ryu does sanchin and tensho as well. Here's what the concensus is, regarding breathing in Sanchin.

Be sure not to constrict your throat.

Do not make a conscious attempt to make those hissing sounds.

Keep your throat open to provide an unrestricted airway.

The pressure for the breath comes from the diaphram. Any noise that happens, is coincidental, not conscious. Kind of like when you open an airhose at the gas station or a gas jet in lab. The opening is unrestricted, but the rush of the volume of air (not your throat or vocal cords) causes the sound.

If you follow that advice, you shouldn't run the risk of any problems that have been alluded to, in the other posts.

Rob

[Saz]

Thanks Kosokun,

The way i was doing it was trying to push the air through at the back of my throat, while tensing my abdomen muscles. It seems a better the way you described it, same noise, but less effort so to speak. Still, I'll ask sensei for advice later, see what he has to say :) I had no idea it could cause damage

The way I've heard it done in kata contests by some karateka is so quiet, you can barely hear it, it sounded more like a low whistle than Ibuki. We practise Tensho too, but thats a loooong way off for me yet, its a 1st Dan kata

[Ozebob]

Originally posted by Kyokushin_girl
Thanks Kosokun,

The way i was doing it was trying to push the air through at the back of my throat, while tensing my abdomen muscles. It seems a better the way you described it, same noise, but less effort so to speak. Still, I'll ask sensei for advice later, see what he has to say :) I had no idea it could cause damage

The way I've heard it done in kata contests by some karateka is so quiet, you can barely hear it, it sounded more like a low whistle than Ibuki. We practise Tensho too, but thats a loooong way off for me yet, its a 1st Dan kata

Hi,

A colleague of mine sent me some material in regards to a version of Sanchin used by early pre-shotokan groups. The breathing was natural, not forced, and synchronized with the movements for balancing the mind, body and spirit (focus of the mind)..

Regards,
Bob

[Mike O'Leary]

If I may for a moment:

I have participated in a study that compared Sanchin kata and its tension and breathing to squats in weight lifting to determine the affects on things like blood pressure and the heart. We were at camp Pendalton in California a few years back and got into one of their medical labs to do the test. We were attended by 4 medical staff as this occured.

The conclusion was that when performed properly Ibuki breathing and tension have less stress impact on the body than the squats. You breath from the abdomen and at the same time exert isometric tension on the muscles of the body, or tension. The small sounds caused by the hissing and throat contractions are simply the "preferences" of each style.

There are also several ways of performing Sanchin Kata. Uechi Ryu performs it for combat and the noise generated by the breathing is preferably not heard for deception reasons. You dont want to tell your opponent that your preparing to strike. This is the way it is performed in this style.

Gojo Ryu has a couple of different ways also. Chojun Miyagi developed the short 3 step forward and 3 step back version as a body conditioning and health kata. Those that are not derived from Miyagi Sensei usually do the version that is longer and goes in more than one direction.

In Isshin Ryu we do the miyagi version as we are a derivative of Goju Ryu, Shorin Ryu and Kobudo. It is used as a body conditioning kata but we also look at the combat aspect. I have heard Sensei Sherman Harril say that basics and good Sanchin are the corner stone of Isshin Ryu Karate. Sensei Harril is one of the "original" Isshin Ryu students studying under O sensei Shimabuku Tatsuo, in Okinawa. He was one of the original Marines to study under him.

Sanchin is studied in many ways for many reasons. Most styles have some sort of tension kata or exercise..

Mike

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Mike O'Leary

In Isshin Ryu we do the miyagi version as we are a derivative of Goju Ryu, Shorin Ryu and Kobudo. It is used as a body conditioning kata but we also look at the combat aspect. I have heard Sensei Sherman Harril say that basics and good Sanchin are the corner stone of Isshin Ryu Karate. Sensei Harril is one of the "original" Isshin Ryu students studying under O sensei Shimabuku Tatsuo, in Okinawa. He was one of the original Marines to study under him.



This is not a "global standard" for Isshin ryu, your group does it this way, others do as well, but many do not.

and Mel


I have been told that if you time a kiai for the right moment you need not even touch your opponent.


This is properly reffered to as scarring the crap out of your opponent :D


My advice for Sanchin is breath as naturally as you can, fill your lungs all the way, completely empty them, worry about tension later. Don't 'try' to make sounds.

[Mike O'Leary]

Andrew:

Seeing as we are both Isshin Ryu I would be curious which branch of the group you know that does it differently, I assume you refer to foot work and pattern because if you refer to breathing and tension then I beg to differ.

Since you are in the great frozen land of grasses I assume you are decendant of Don Shapland unless you come from the Windsor area. My original Sensei was Don Shapland and he lives in town here in BC now, having just returned with his wife and kids from Okinawa. He is teching Ryu Kyu Kobudo Tesshin kan. He does Sanchin this way, My current Sensei , Sensei Advincula does sanchin this way, he is the longest training non Okinawan to have been promoted by Shimabuku. He has also trained in Ueichi Ryu which is where I have gleaned the information on their Sanchin.

Steve Armstrongs group with whom I interact quite abit, in fact im sitting in on one of their gradings this weekend, do it similar and the last time I saw Master Adams he also did it this way which would make sense because he and Don trained together years ago.

I would be very interested in learning who does it differently... I have only seen Isshin Ryu do it the one way.. when I attended the Isshin Ryu Grand Nationals in Renton conneticut in 1986 as a Nidan it was done the same there by most of the groups.. Lou Lisot.. Santilli,... cant even remember who else besides Adams and Armstrong where there.

PS>> say HI to Richard next time you see him... I havent seen him in about 8 years when he came to train Kobudo with us and Tamayose Sensei... on one of his first trips. Ill bet its cold in Dryden these days hahahahhah And if you are in Windsor and surrounding area say Hi to John who trains with Mr. Mady... he is an old student of mine that I steered towards Mr. Mady when John moved to Windsor. And of course say Hi to Mr. Mady , tell him Mike from Abbotsford said HI...

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Mike O'Leary
Andrew:

Seeing as we are both Isshin Ryu I would be curious which branch of the group you know that does it differently, I assume you refer to foot work and pattern because if you refer to breathing and tension then I beg to differ.


No, niether I was reffering to it being used for a body conditioning exercise.


Since you are in the great frozen land of grasses I assume you are decendant of Don Shapland unless you come from the Windsor area. My original Sensei was Don Shapland and he lives in town here in BC now, having just returned with his wife and kids from Okinawa. He is teching Ryu Kyu Kobudo Tesshin kan. He does Sanchin this way, My current Sensei , Sensei Advincula does sanchin this way, he is the longest training non Okinawan to have been promoted by Shimabuku. He has also trained in Ueichi Ryu which is where I have gleaned the information on their Sanchin.


Yes, I was with Denis Girardin.


I would be very interested in learning who does it differently... I have only seen Isshin Ryu do it the one way.. when I attended the Isshin Ryu Grand Nationals in Renton conneticut in 1986 as a Nidan it was done the same there by most of the groups.. Lou Lisot.. Santilli,... cant even remember who else besides Adams and Armstrong where there.


E-mail me privately and I'll try to give you some answers. No need to bore the list with Isshin ryu politics. Also I don't like posting other peoples names and ideas publically when they are not here to tell me I'm wrong.

ewmaa@shaw.ca

[uglyelk]

Originally posted by Pablo

For those who haven't seen Uechi-Ryu, suffice it to say that they have a passing acquaintance with the form.
;)

paul [/B]

ROFLMAO :D

And I agree locking the breath is a bad practice.

Laird

[Tommy_P]

Hi,

I'm a bit curious about this kiai during sanchin. While not concidering myself thouroughly versed in sanchin, I do know the kata (the kyokushin version which is an altered Goju sanchin).

Kosokun gives a good starting point for breathing and as he noted the throat remains open. Here is where I'm confused by kyokushin-girls' description. In contrast to the open throat breathing, which is also a prolonged breath, varying in time depending on the school, a kiai is a short burst. It's not a long trailing yell.

It's purposlely cut short by closing the glotis. The breath comes from the lower diaphram and is cut short by closing the throat as opposed to the long open throat breathing of sanchin.

I don't see how the kata could be performed with kiai type breathing.

Some one commented on squating. As a regular squater for heavy low rep work I can tell you what I know about breathing in that area. I don't breath like karate breathing.

I inhale at the top, squat under control with a tight body and abs. At the start of the accent I continue to hold my breath so as not to let the tension be relased form my body. Particularly my mid section. about 1/4 the way up I then forcefully exhale. It's not a sanchin or ibuki type of forced breath just a quick burst. As it gets tough in the last reps it may become a yell or loud grunt:D .

I don't equate it with any type of karate style breathing.


Tommy

[Saz]

I should have said that the kata is actually performed with a kiai in place of the ibuki breathing. In the places of the kata where you would breath, you kiai instead. The kiai is a normal kiai, and not and ibuki type kiai.

Sarah

[Tommy_P]

Originally posted by Kyokushin_girl
I should have said that the kata is actually performed with a kiai in place of the ibuki breathing. In the places of the kata where you would breath, you kiai instead. The kiai is a normal kiai, and not and ibuki type kiai.


Hi Sarah,

That was my point:)

Sanchin is pretty much continueous breathing, long breaths in and longer ones out, on every technique (just about) which are all done slowly and tensed in conjunction with the breathing. This kata also teaches you to be strong on the inhale.

The techniques (punches or blocks) would finish long after any kiai which lasts less than a second as compared to the 4 secs or more for the breaths in sanchin . Breathing times will vary according to style, at the kyokushin school where I learned sanchin, the breaths were about seven seconds from start to finish, around three in and 4 out (aprx.)

I believe some practice an older version which uses open hands and faster breathing, but this is generally not used by Goju or Kyokushin (which practices the Goju viersion).
Tommy

[Melanie]

Welcome Paul,

Thanks for joining us, even through our recent problems with er...some posts. :)

I am sure Kyokushin Girl will be chuffed when she sees you have joined. :)

Myself, Chazz and Ghostsuit and Cooler are the admin people of this forum. If you have any queries, please do let us know.

Happy posting!

[Saz]

Thanks for the offer of help Paul, I'll probably take you up on that sometime. Its a tricky Kata, i'm just glad I've got a while to practise it before I'm graded on it. Its getting a little better now, I've got the timing better at least. I've heard you get hit with sticks on the grading when you are doing the kata, to check you are doing the tension right.

There has never been a kiai in Sanchin no kata, Mas Oyama when alive never tought this and has never been passed down as so.

Bringing this up has brought something interesting to my attention. Sanchin No Kata with Kiai is in my syllabus under 3rd Kyu katas, along with Pinan Yon. However, in the syllabus I have from 11 years ago (Oyama was alive then) the Sanchin No Kata is the regular Ibuki version only. No Sanchin with a Kiai at all there. So now I'm wondering, why and when was it introduced??

As far as the Sanchin with Kiai goes, I've not actually seen it practised in the dojo, therefore can't really comment on the how the kata is done. I can see your point though, that Kiai-ing when your body is already in tension wouldn't be good.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Kyokushin_girl

So now I'm wondering, why and when was it introduced??


Don Warrner (spelling?) group does it, its listed as having a kiai in his book. I'm not to familiar with american Goju-ryu history but I believe he was under Peter Urban, so it might come from him, or just be his own thing. Perhaps you're group borrowed it from there?

As far as I know NO Okinawan style Kiai's in sanchin.

[Saz]

I've seen and practised the Ibuki version of Sanchin No Kata, just not the Kiai version.

Linda Keaveney sells Hanshi Arneil's books and other kyokushinkai stuff on the BKK site, http://www.hi-tekdemo.co.uk/bkk/kyokushinltd.htm I managed to get hold of one of his books from my uni library, I can't remember the exact title but it was the one he wrote with Liam Keaveney. It gave me some good advice for the application of the techniques that I hadn't considered in the class.

[gojutejutsuryu]

Kyokushin_girl.
Many years ago I was given a video-tape on the study and practice of kata "sanchin", which including muscle expansion and contraction, breathing techniques, testing techniques, etc: It is possible the best I've seen in 42 years of training in the martial sciences.

OKINAWAN GOJU RYU KARATE DO
SANCHIN KATA
MORIO HIGAONNA

The mechanics of the kata is fully discussed, both versions. (The original that "Kanryo Higaonna" (Shihan) brought from China and the slightly changed version which he composed and felt to be better. The best that I've seen, Hope it helps.

gojutejutsuryu
(South Africa)

[Mike O'Leary]

The reference to the Squats was a comarison on Squats and its effects on the body as compared to Sanchin and its effects. There was no consideration to "karate " style breathing.. It had to do with the effect on the heart. Its purpose was to dispell a theory that Sanchin was "bad" for the body. This theory had been put in print I beleive by a non martial artist.

Mike

[paul paterson]

Osu,

Sanchin no kata is an isometric kata where each motion is performed in a state of complete tension accompanied by powerful, deep breathing. It is aimed at strengthening the muscles and developing a strong stance and proper breathing. Its practice leads to the development of the inner power (ki) and to the coordination of mind and body. It teaches basic footwork, basic hand techniques and bassic blocking techniques.
Shihan Tadashi Nakamura, Seido Karate.

This kata that we call Sanchin no kata is the oldest of all the karate kata, and is loosely translated as "three points" or the "three battles". There are many reasons behind its translation and some karateka will say its because of mind, body, and spririt. Hence the three battles, firstly we concentrate to empty the mind and become one. Secondly, we make our bodies strong and rooted into the ground just like a tree with its roots. And thirdly, we try to make a solid spirit that is unbreakable. Others will say the three points mean the ki points as in tento, hara, and tanden. While others will say its because Sanchin is made up of triangle points, the feet position make up a triangle (left heel draw a line to the right heel, right big toe and left big toe and draw a line from each and conect it to the heel line to form a triangle), you have a triangle from the middle of the belt (top) down to the floor and feet. And so on. Each time you look at Sanchin you find a triangle shape.

There are two ways of breathing in Sanchin no kata. One is to breathe directly from the nose and down into the lower abdomen. The other involves imagining that the air is traveling up to and around the head, then down to the spine, followed by into the lower abdomen, where it is coiled/wound up like a spring. Both of these movements require practice and the harmonising of your breathing with the movements of the kata. If your posture is incorrect then your breathing will also be incorrect therefore it is very important to "find" the right posture. We call the breathing in Sanchin no kata "ibuki" and "nogare". It is the Ibuki that should be heard whilst performing this kata, take note that the noise does not come from the throat but from the lower abdomen and it should never be forced. Lastly, whilst performing this kata it must be stressed that NO child should practice or perfom it, as the stresses involved within the body far outway the practical side. It has been known that the small intestine can twist and cause damage.

Osu.

Paul Paterson
1st Dan Jiyuseishinkai
Section Keeper
Glasgow Zoo.

ps. to Kyokushin_girl (Sarah)
When you next speak to your Shihan Arneil, ask him if he remembers Dicky Dowler, Bernard Creton, and Albert Burton. As these people were my instructors and I am sure you can find out more on Sanchin No Kata from them as well as Shihan himself. By the way your Kyokushin website is good and informative.

[Saz]

Thanks paul, I'll remember to ask him :) I'm updating the site right now, I wanna make it really good. Glad you liked it

[paul paterson]

Osu,

Happy New Year to you all.

Hello Sarah, just a passing thought. When you practice your Sanchin No Kata, try to keep your spine straight and keep an equal balance between the breathe in while bringing back the punch and the breathe out while slowly punching out. Expel all the air out and force from the lower abdomen until there is nothing else to give. As you go higher up in the Kyu grades you will find your own method, eventually you will find your own balance and then it becomes more fluid in its meaning. I still have not found anyone who practices this kata with a Kai although that does not mean it has never been done. I have even asked Sensei Pat McCarthy not that long ago and again he has not heard of this method. Before I finish, can I say that there are many schools out there that have a slightly different empathise on sanchin stance and the kata itself. Such as Shotokan will have a wider sanchin stance compaired to that of Goju, as they are more tight with the stance and more rooted. Each school will have a slightly different way of doing it but it always comes down to the same thing.

Osu.
Paul Paterson
1st Dan Jiyuseishinkai
Section Keeper
Glasgow Zoo.

P.S. Most students find that they struggle with the feeling of the stance and the kata itself, and doing Mae shuto mawashi uke.

[animefreak88]

No, niether I was reffering to it being used for a body conditioning exercise.

[B]

Yes, I was with Denis Girardin.

[B]

E-mail me privately and I'll try to give you some answers. No need to bore the list with Isshin ryu politics. Also I don't like posting other peoples names and ideas publically when they are not here to tell me I'm wrong.

ewmaa@shaw.ca

i have read of some isshinryu schools doing a no tension sanchin, but i have not personally seen it. and please, email me aswell with this information, i too practice isshinryu, and i like to further my knowledge about the various isshinryu groups. i'll whisper you the email.

[Mike O'Leary]

Don Warrner (spelling?) group does it, its listed as having a kiai in his book. I'm not to familiar with american Goju-ryu history but I believe he was under Peter Urban, so it might come from him, or just be his own thing. Perhaps you're group borrowed it from there?

As far as I know NO Okinawan style Kiai's in sanchin.



In Don Warrener's book he refers to his teacher as Richard Kim, having said that there is also Reference of a realationship between him and Yamaguchi but there is no reference to Peter Urban.

Mike O'Leary

[Mike O'Leary]

In Don Warrener's book he refers to his teacher as Richard Kim, having said that there is also Reference of a realationship between him and Yamaguchi but there is no reference to Peter Urban.

Mike O'Leary


Here is a quote from one of his books.

1.
"Don Warrener has been taught by some of the best in the world including Benny Allen, Bob Dalgleish, Frank Lee, Dom Lopez and the legendary Gogen Yamaguichi"

2.
"And of course the one man he gives credit to for teaching him more about the Martial Arts than any other, the famous philosopher and Martial Artist Richard Kim of san Francisco"

"Traditional Goju-Ryu Karate by Don Warrener 2nd Printing 1985"


Mike O'leary