bible - god says hi

[nzric]

Alright, this will come as a shock to a lot of you (gidday AikiMac!) but I've decided to read the bible, at least to look seriously at what I've been disagreeing with.

This is the thing... god just came down and told me off :D :Angel: :

I had a dream the night before last - I was on top of a train which was speeding and out of control, and walking over logs and debris to get to the front. Another train came up on the tracks on the other side and some people helped me jump across from the first train to the other one.

I told these people I was trying to get to the back of that train to find a guy and in exchange for helping them with their work, could they tell me all they knew about this guy. They had a big pile of planks of wood and each plank had the title of different bible chapters on them - they were trying to put them all in order.

I sat down next to a kid who was looking for the next plank, which began with John 1:17. I looked through and found it to slot into place, then shortly after I woke up.

Now, I've never read the bible before and most people will know I'm a 'devout' atheist, but the dream was so vivid that the first thing I did on Sunday was get online and find out what John 1:17 was. That passage reads "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."


So I've spooked myself out with the dream - it seems like my subconscious (some of you folk will think it's more) wants me to at least check out the bible. Wasn't exactly a burning bush, more like a not so subtle hint. Yep, I'm one of the biggest sceptics around but it's quite an odd passage to dream about, even from a random selection of bible chapters, and I can't think of anywhere I could've subconsciously heard that passage before.

So, I'll let you know how I go. Don't expect a big conversion but I thought if the Big Man was good enough to come down and give me some advice I should listen to the voices in my head and check out why y'all think it's so great :D

[rtkd-badger]

Dude!!! Thats scary, I would say you need a stiff drink before you go to bed and maybe then you'll just dream about pink elephants in striped pyjama's. :D

[AZeitung]

I, on the other hand, am Christian, but I still have to ask, did that verse actually seem significant to you in any way?

[nzric]

Well my point was that for a "random" passage, it was more relevant than something like "and quoth he bid joseph 48 sheafs of wheat".

[aikiMac]

Alright, this will come as a shock to a lot of you (gidday AikiMac!) but I've decided to read the bible, at least to look seriously at what I've been disagreeing with.
:D
PM me anytime.

[Capt Ann]

Gospel of John is a really good place to start, too.

[ATF]

Alright, this will come as a shock to a lot of you (gidday AikiMac!) but I've decided to read the bible, at least to look seriously at what I've been disagreeing with.

This is the thing... god just came down and told me off :D :Angel: :

I had a dream the night before last - I was on top of a train which was speeding and out of control, and walking over logs and debris to get to the front. Another train came up on the tracks on the other side and some people helped me jump across from the first train to the other one.

I told these people I was trying to get to the back of that train to find a guy and in exchange for helping them with their work, could they tell me all they knew about this guy. They had a big pile of planks of wood and each plank had the title of different bible chapters on them - they were trying to put them all in order.

I sat down next to a kid who was looking for the next plank, which began with John 1:17. I looked through and found it to slot into place, then shortly after I woke up.

Now, I've never read the bible before and most people will know I'm a 'devout' atheist, but the dream was so vivid that the first thing I did on Sunday was get online and find out what John 1:17 was. That passage reads "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."


So I've spooked myself out with the dream - it seems like my subconscious (some of you folk will think it's more) wants me to at least check out the bible. Wasn't exactly a burning bush, more like a not so subtle hint. Yep, I'm one of the biggest sceptics around but it's quite an odd passage to dream about, even from a random selection of bible chapters, and I can't think of anywhere I could've subconsciously heard that passage before.

So, I'll let you know how I go. Don't expect a big conversion but I thought if the Big Man was good enough to come down and give me some advice I should listen to the voices in my head and check out why y'all think it's so great :D


I will say this to you. THANK YOU FOR SHARING THAT STORY!!!!! Secondly God has a plan for you. He WILL use you in a glorious way. I will pray for you.


-ATF

[Sub zero]

very, very interesting. One of my main reasons for not believeing in god is i have never "felt" him like some of my friends have. but if something like that happened...i'd have to look again.

[Capt Ann]

One of my main reasons for not believeing in god is i have never "felt" him like some of my friends have. but if something like that happened...i'd have to look again.
God has made many precious promises to us, and I have found, from experience, that His promises are always trustworthy. However, with all His many promises, He has never promised that something like that will happen to you.

May I suggest, if having something like that happen would make you take a second look, then maybe you might want to take a second look based on the eye-witness account of someone to whom it has happened. I've heard hundreds of people ask for proof of God's existence. I think many of us would feel better about it if we could put God in a testtube and check Him out for a while. But the kind of evidence available is more like what you would see in a court of law--eyewitness accounts, supporting evidence, historical records, and tons of 'circumstantial evidence' (you know the old story?? Someone says they had a prayer answered, and someone else says, "That's just a coincidence." The first person answers, "Maybe so, ....but all I know is the more I pray, the more coincidences I have." ;) )

[nzric]

Did you know scientists have found a part of the brain responsible for religious sensations, the 'looking into the void' feeling and the sensation of feeling god's presence.

Interesting that this fact has been accepted by both sides of the argument as evidence for (god put it there so we can know him) and against (people with big lobes get religious feelings) the existence of god

[aikiMac]

How's the reading going, Ric?

[nzric]

Gimme a chance!

I've been reading some Nietsche (Beyond Good and Evil), a Derrida for Dummies and have finally found the Dancing Wu Li Masters at the local library, so I'll fit the Word of God in somewhere.

I might go to a local church and try to look pious so they give me a free copy - if you look lonesome and impressionable on the street you only get free copies of Hari Krishna stuff and the Book of Mormon. Am I evil?! :D :D

[aikiMac]

I might go to a local church and try to look pious so they give me a free copy - if you look lonesome and impressionable on the street you only get free copies of Hari Krishna stuff and the Book of Mormon. Am I evil?! :D :D
I'm pretty sure that Jesus will let this one slide if you actually read the book. :D

[Thomas]

- if you look lonesome and impressionable on the street you only get free copies of Hari Krishna stuff and the Book of Mormon.
You never know... the message might be the same and the path to the message may be a better fit for you!
There may be a lot to learn from those books as well!

[Sub zero]

God has made many precious promises to us, and I have found, from experience, that His promises are always trustworthy. However, with all His many promises, He has never promised that something like that will happen to you.

May I suggest, if having something like that happen would make you take a second look, then maybe you might want to take a second look based on the eye-witness account of someone to whom it has happened. I've heard hundreds of people ask for proof of God's existence. I think many of us would feel better about it if we could put God in a testtube and check Him out for a while. But the kind of evidence available is more like what you would see in a court of law--eyewitness accounts, supporting evidence, historical records, and tons of 'circumstantial evidence' (you know the old story?? Someone says they had a prayer answered, and someone else says, "That's just a coincidence." The first person answers, "Maybe so, ....but all I know is the more I pray, the more coincidences I have." ;) )


Point taken. The one problem with that approach is that theres just as much evidence for other religions.

One of my friends claims to of had a video of a womans leg growing back after being "healed" in america. :confused: off course when me and my friends interested....butlaughing....asked to see the video he said he had "taped over it with the football". I'm by no means saying all christians are like this....far from it. My point is that alot of the bible is based on other people writing down what they claimed to have seen or wtnessed or felt. As in other religions and this cannot always be trusted.(in my view anyway). Because when people are passionate about something they can tend to exagerate...that's all.

See your point about promises to god, what promises are these? i can only think of a few....don't rally read the bible that much......one being after the great flood "i will never do this again". Sounds like a bit of a cop out to me especially if you don't believe it happened in the first place. :D

Did you know scientists have found a part of the brain responsible for religious sensations, the 'looking into the void' feeling and the sensation of feeling god's presence.

Interesting that this fact has been accepted by both sides of the argument as evidence for (god put it there so we can know him) and against (people with big lobes get religious feelings) the existence of god

I've read about this aswell nzric. In britain they took one of our most famous scientits...although i can't remember his name :o and stimulated that part of the brain. He said that although he did feel something he was not converted.

What's even more interesting is that firstly scientists can't find something similar in animals (which would support the immortal soul idea).

What i'd be interested to seeis whether religous people's brain where bigger/more active in that area that secualr people.

[Bellator Manus]

Point taken. The one problem with that approach is that theres just as much evidence for other religions.

One of my friends claims to of had a video of a womans leg growing back after being "healed" in america. :confused: off course when me and my friends interested....butlaughing....asked to see the video he said he had "taped over it with the football". I'm by no means saying all christians are like this....far from it. My point is that alot of the bible is based on other people writing down what they claimed to have seen or wtnessed or felt. As in other religions and this cannot always be trusted.(in my view anyway). Because when people are passionate about something they can tend to exagerate...that's all.You've got to read "The Case for Christ" then. Gives you all the evidence you need and then some. Not really many other religons have as much evidence as Christianity.

[tekkengod]

Alright, this will come as a shock to a lot of you (gidday AikiMac!) but I've decided to read the bible, at least to look seriously at what I've been disagreeing with.

This is the thing... god just came down and told me off :D :Angel: :

I had a dream the night before last - I was on top of a train which was speeding and out of control, and walking over logs and debris to get to the front. Another train came up on the tracks on the other side and some people helped me jump across from the first train to the other one.

I told these people I was trying to get to the back of that train to find a guy and in exchange for helping them with their work, could they tell me all they knew about this guy. They had a big pile of planks of wood and each plank had the title of different bible chapters on them - they were trying to put them all in order.

I sat down next to a kid who was looking for the next plank, which began with John 1:17. I looked through and found it to slot into place, then shortly after I woke up.

Now, I've never read the bible before and most people will know I'm a 'devout' atheist, but the dream was so vivid that the first thing I did on Sunday was get online and find out what John 1:17 was. That passage reads "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."


So I've spooked myself out with the dream - it seems like my subconscious (some of you folk will think it's more) wants me to at least check out the bible. Wasn't exactly a burning bush, more like a not so subtle hint. Yep, I'm one of the biggest sceptics around but it's quite an odd passage to dream about, even from a random selection of bible chapters, and I can't think of anywhere I could've subconsciously heard that passage before.

So, I'll let you know how I go. Don't expect a big conversion but I thought if the Big Man was good enough to come down and give me some advice I should listen to the voices in my head and check out why y'all think it's so great :D

i'm betting on your subconcious, if you avidly diagaree with it {as i do} your sub is probably trying to justify your opinions, i'm no PHD or dream expert, but i've had similar events happen to me. never a dream, but i swore i saw his face on the wall the other day. many odd things like that, i run into rellay religious people in the most ackward of places. {i.e.=} when i was in florida for the summer, i met a Priest from New York in the gym of the apartment complex at 1:00 in the morning who was down for 4 days, lead to some interesting converstion, point being if god wants such a relationship with me, just stick your head down and say hello, thats all it'll take. point being, weird stuff happens, good luck with that dream.

[tekkengod]

You've got to read "The Case for Christ" then. Gives you all the evidence you need and then some. Not really many other religons have as much evidence as Christianity.

i read "case for christ" all it proved to me was that jesus was more than likely insane. but i'm gonna skim through it again now that you brought it up.

[Bellator Manus]

I would love to hear how you came to that conclusion.

[Infrazael]

Interesting. Remember, "nothing is true, everything is permitted."

Believe what your Will tells you to.

Peace.

[aikiMac]

Interesting. Remember, "nothing is true, everything is permitted."
So, that statement is not true, right?
Or, is it true?
Me thinks you don't even know what you're saying. :)

[reikislapper]

Look I used to be one of the christians nzric and if something or someone is telling you to read the bible then go for it, don't let anyone make your mind up other than yourself as it's supposed to be a personal walk with the christian religion and not a groupie thing. Yes they can help with any questions you might have about the bible but don't be pushed into anything you do want to be in.
I had this and found it a hard walk to follow and I don't encourage anyone to go the same way some take note by my mistakes. I'm a lot happier following the path I have chosen to follow and it's much better as I have the freedom to go where I want instead of being told where to go. I also get the chance to follow other faiths which I wasn't allowed to being a christian, so I'm having the time of my life on that one lol. I'm evn getting into the buddhist philosophy which I was told one thing but found out another so it shows that you have the right to say no as well if you feel it's against how you feel inside. Please take notice of what it's saying inside of you and listen to that and not the the ones who saying something else, and also enjoy yourself most of all.
lisa xx

[Shadowdh]

NZRic... the message is.... dont eat cheese before bed... see simple really ;)

[AZeitung]

So, that statement is not true, right?
Or, is it true?
Me thinks you don't even know what you're saying. :)

I think he means "Nothing is true, except this and some other stuff, and everything is permitted, except the things that aren't."

That's why I like science. People who say things like "nothing is true" get Fs.

[Bellator Manus]

Look I used to be one of the christians nzric and if something or someone is telling you to read the bible then go for it, don't let anyone make your mind up other than yourself as it's supposed to be a personal walk with the christian religion and not a groupie thing. Yes they can help with any questions you might have about the bible but don't be pushed into anything you do want to be in.
I had this and found it a hard walk to follow and I don't encourage anyone to go the same way some take note by my mistakes. I'm a lot happier following the path I have chosen to follow and it's much better as I have the freedom to go where I want instead of being told where to go. I also get the chance to follow other faiths which I wasn't allowed to being a christian, so I'm having the time of my life on that one lol. I'm evn getting into the buddhist philosophy which I was told one thing but found out another so it shows that you have the right to say no as well if you feel it's against how you feel inside. Please take notice of what it's saying inside of you and listen to that and not the the ones who saying something else, and also enjoy yourself most of all.
lisa xx
In short, you didn't like Christanity because you wanted to be your own god?

[tekkengod]

sounds like he just wanted to experiment alittle bit.

[Thomas]

In short, you didn't like Christanity because you wanted to be your own god?
I believe she follows the teachings of Buddha (as a great many other people do)

[midnightsun955]

Read Exodus...that's actually very entertaining.

I'm reading the Bible for my IH course. Still don't believe the Bible, but I do believe in God. It's a good read, even if you use it to argue with a strong headed christian :D

[Dancing Shadow]

I would strongly recommend "Jesus, Among Other Gods" by Ravi Zacharias as well. It is a great book.

[nzric]

I've finished Matthew, Mark, Luke, and I'm halfway through John, but I have to say I'm a bit disappointed. At first I was surprised how much of it I know already - as our culture, sayings, stories, etc in the West are steeped in Biblical references so I had a profound sense of deja vu reading it.

For one, what is disappointing is the fact that if the son of the creator of the Universe came down to earth, I thought he'd say more profound things than "be nice to each other". Also, there's a huge inconsistancy in the Christian interpretation of his teachings and the actual quotes... e.g. all the first books agreed (not a regular occurance) that Jesus explicitly states that to divorce or to marry a divorcee is to commit adultery. He goes to great lengths to spell this out (so he obviously thinks it's important), but despite being an important point, many modern Christians aren't too strong on the issue. If it's the word of god, it's the word of god - you shouldn't pick and choose what suits.

Also, there's a lot of similarities between traditional cult tactics and the way Jesus behaves... e.g. his insistence that he is here to "set families against one another" (e.g. Matthew 10:35-40), defining a "chosen few" against the "others" and also insisting that people give away their worldly possessions. He's playing by the book of manufacturing a cult following (e.g. http://skepdic.com/cults.html) (e.g. economic dependence and separation of the individual from the normal family/peer support network). He also insists that "Judgement day" will be within the next few generations, definitely not in a couple of thousand, or more, years time (matthew 24:34 / Mark 13:30). This was well-known and publicised at the beginning stages of christianity, but more or less forgotten now.

I have no doubt that a lot of the events happened, and that Jesus was a real person. Apart from the evidence (not just the bible), I was impressed with the way the info is recorded by each saint. Matthew seems to have a biiiig problem against Pharisees, and therefore depicts a fairly angry/impatient Jesus throughout. Mark's Jesus was a bit of a softie, while Luke gets so carried away with angels and mystical talk that the story is almost lost in places. John seems fairly straight talking, almost like a self-help guru, but it's a bit cloudy where his interpretation stops and Jesus' starts. While the writers seem to be a bit naiive to political machinations (compared to a current reader who has the luxury of thousands of years of political theory and a free press), it's surprising how real the political to-ing and fro-ing is in the bible (esp. between Herod and Pilate from Luke 23:7). This would reflect the fact that they're recording real events, but didn't totally understand them themselves.

This of course is because they were written for different audiences, but it shows how much a story can change even from the very beginning. For instance, when Judas identifies Jesus by kissing him, then the soldiers struggle with the disciples before taking Jesus away. Matthew (26:51), Mark (14:47), and John (18:10) all say that Jesus only instructed Peter to put down the sword and be peaceful, but Luke (22:51) says Jesus healed the soldier's missing ear. So now we've jumped from an appeal to peace straight to a full-blown miracle, even though the other saints don't care to mention that Jesus put a guy's ear back on once it had been severed.

Also surprises me that there's a lack of interest in, e.g. what Jesus' history was between the manger and when he was baptized by John, or that no-one even attempts to describe what Jesus looked like. These both seem pretty important to the historical record but are glossed over. Also, the Resurrection of Jesus is recorded differently by each writer - they don't even seem to agree on the events of this occasion, which is the one key event that is used to justify the entire Christian faith.

I'm reading a book on critical thinking at the moment, which has a lot to say about the crimes of the church in the past (esp. the Inquisition and Pope Innocent VIII, Biblical justification for slavery and Vatican complicity with Nazi Germany). Of course this kind of behaviour went directly against the teachings/wishes of Jesus, but it just shows how the Bible is a blank slate on which ideologies/political factions draw their own interpretations for their own purposes. While Jesus' teachings seem fair, there's nothing I can see that's beyond the kind of self-help teaching you'd get from any self-appointed guru. Also, I think you're much better off modelling your views on people like Lincoln or Gandhi, the Dalai Lama or Bono from U2, who have their own writings and a much more complete set of recorded views.

Throughout the books, I also haven't come across any place where Jesus says you have to believe in him as Lord and Saviour in order to get into heaven. He just talks about how you should be a good person. That must come later. I also haven't come across anything about nailing him to the cross as opposed to the usual process of tying them up. Must come later on too.

Just my view. I might burn in hell but I'll do it with a clear conscience.

[tekkengod]

here is also a very good site with lots of intelligent rational discussions and evidence against alot of this religious BS, aikimac, you might wanna give this site a few minutes of your time. its called www.skepticscorner.com although you might have to google it to get to it, sometimes i have to do so. it is complied of scholars and professors as well as some well respected authors and a few random works, so its not just a bunch of idiots spouting off nonsense. give it a try if you want some logic with your religion. oh wait, silly me, how could religion and logic ever co-exist?

[tekkengod]

yeah if you wanna get there you have to google "skeptics corner" to get to it, it should be the first page listed. {the one on top of the list}

[aikiMac]

I've finished Matthew, Mark, Luke, and I'm halfway through John,
Dude, you rock!

For one, what is disappointing is the fact that if the son of the creator of the Universe came down to earth, I thought he'd say more profound things than "be nice to each other".
What, "Do unto others ..." isn't a great thing?
He was teaching the Old Testament. Jesus didn't make up anything new -- he repeated the Old Testament. That's actually refreshing in light of his position as God Himself. I'd be quite disturbed if he made up something new.


Also, there's a huge inconsistancy in the Christian interpretation of his teachings and the actual quotes.
[Gasp!] No! You don't say!
Would you mind if I give you a "duh" ?
Yes, there is an inconsistency between the ideals set forth by Jesus and the practices of people who sit in pews on Sunday mornings. A great many people are extremely upset by it. You will have noticed, I know, that the harshest words Jesus spoke were always directed against the religious leaders of that day (Pharisees and Sadducees). Always. The harshest. Hmm. You'd think more people would notice what you just noticed.

If it's the word of god, it's the word of god - you shouldn't pick and choose what suits.
Amen!

Also, there's a lot of similarities between traditional cult tactics and the way Jesus behaves... e.g. his insistence that he is here to "set families against one another" (e.g. Matthew 10:35-40), defining a "chosen few" against the "others" and also insisting that people give away their worldly possessions. He's playing by the book of manufacturing a cult following
Or, maybe he's warning people about what you just noticed: it's not right to be a modern-day Pharisee.

He also insists that "Judgement day" will be within the next few generations, definitely not in a couple of thousand, or more, years time (matthew 24:34 / Mark 13:30). This was well-known and publicised at the beginning stages of christianity, but more or less forgotten now.
Not in all circles. Some very smart Christians argue very well that this here "judgement day" occured in 70 AD, when Rome sacked Jerusalem.

Also surprises me that there's a lack of interest in, e.g. what Jesus' history was between the manger and when he was baptized by John, or that no-one even attempts to describe what Jesus looked like.
Frustrating to us today, yes indeed, but not relevant to the Old Testament prophesies. These details wouldn't matter to someone searching the Old Testament for verification that Jesus was who he claimed to be, and who John the Baptist said he was.


Also, the Resurrection of Jesus is recorded differently by each writer - they don't even seem to agree on the events of this occasion, which is the one key event that is used to justify the entire Christian faith.
That's an old argument that's been quite well dismissed by many commentator/apologists. The different writers come at it from different viewpoints. They complement each other, they don't contradict.

Throughout the books, I also haven't come across any place where Jesus says you have to believe in him as Lord and Saviour in order to get into heaven.
...
I also haven't come across anything about nailing him to the cross as opposed to the usual process of tying them up. Must come later on too.

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John's gospel, if I remember right. And John 3:18 is on point.

Thomas wanted to touch the nail holes in Jesus' body, but yes, that part of the story does come at the end of John.

[Jasonds23]

Here's how it defies logic....How can someone come down
here, be born like us, and then be condemned like he was
the devil,...only to die knowing all sin, and come back to life?
-------------------------------------------------------------
John 3:17 "For God did not send his Son into the world to judge
the world, but that the world should be saved through him."
-------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, salvation is beyond measurement, I agree :)

[jonmonk]

"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John's gospel, if I remember right.

Without wishing to upset too many people, I personally think that this is one of the most dangerously misinterpreted passages in the Bible. One of the things I like to do is read and think about all kinds of religious and spiritual practices and for years one thing never rang true to me and that was that Jesus, a talented spiritual teacher, would tell people that unless they believed in him, would spend the rest of eternity in Hell. Given that so much of his teaching revolved around acceptance, love and mutual repect, I simply cannot believe he'd attempt to scare people into his religion. However, if you read it a different way, it makes much more sense (to me). If you read the meaning as "unless you become like me, you'll never understand communion with 'God'" suddenly it becomes far more accessible and I think you'd find far more people agreeing with you.

[midnightsun955]

but it just shows how the Bible is a blank slate on which ideologies/political factions draw their own interpretations for their own purposes

Agreed. I read the Bible knowing nothing much of christianity and I was disapointed by how little it actually states vs. what people SOMEHOW get out of it (the somehow being they go to church and christian school where they are taught interpretations that sometimes are just too farfethched). If you look at things as for what they say and then look at the translations: well maybe it's this or lets switch a word or two...the two of them are completely different.

[jls1znv9999]

Ok how many gods total has man based the religions on? Quite a few, Aztecs worshipped the Sun and Moon. Greeks had a god for each thing in life. No where and i do mean no where is there talk of time before christianity. Mortality especially when threatened causes physchological stress (proven). I honestly believe that (right now till god touches my life) god is something similar to massive paranoia. Every attempt to prove by science has had a dead end in some way or another.

[tekkengod]

"Religion is the opiate of the masses"- Michael Savage

[Omicron]

I read the Bible knowing nothing much of christianity and I was disapointed by how little it actually states vs. what people SOMEHOW get out of it (the somehow being they go to church and christian school where they are taught interpretations that sometimes are just too farfethched). If you look at things as for what they say and then look at the translations: well maybe it's this or lets switch a word or two...the two of them are completely different.
I agree. This is my fundamental problem with most large organized religions: people seem all too happy to take what they are told at face value. In the many times my mom has dragged me to church, I've noticed that the pastor tends to interpret some passages in the strangest ways. It seems so obvious to me that they were meant to say something else, but since that something no longer applies to modern life, the church has found a way to reinterpret the meaning of the passage to fit in with modern "common sense". Whenever I bring up this issue, I'm always told that I haven't been "saved", or that I can't possibly understand what the Bible is supposed to mean because I don't believe in God, or because I haven't studied it at church. Wouldn't a book that contains the word of an all-powerful god be very understandable and accessible, even to a complete non-believer like me?

[tekkengod]

you make a very good point omicron, you don't need to be saved to know that the book is mostly BS which no longer applies to the modern man. so they redirect it and paraphrase it to make it just alittle more plausible.

[AZeitung]

"Religion is the opiate of the masses"- Michael Savage
- Karl Marx

[Jasonds23]

Everyone's different....

[AZeitung]

"My object all sublime,
I shall achieve in time,
to let the punishment fit the crime"
- Dostoevsky

:p :D

[nzric]

"The Devil can quote Scripture to his purpose." - Shakespeare

[AZeitung]

"In for a penny in for a pound,
It's love that makes the world go round."
- The Bible
;)

[tekkengod]

"In for a penny in for a pound,
It's love that makes the world go round."
- The Bible
;)

-black eyed peas

[tekkengod]

- Karl Marx

come to think of it, i think he did say something about Karl Marx a few minutes earlier. i believe you are right. way to flex that brain muscle :cool:

[AZeitung]

-black eyed peas

Gilbert&Sullivan, actually.

[tekkengod]

grrr. damn your brain muscle!! :woo:
seriously though, i've heard them say that too, my mom had that CD on full blast for like a week.

[Lilika]

I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting. But it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously. - Douglas Adams

Most people are bothered by those passages of Scripture they do not understand, but the passages that bother me are those I do understand. - Mark Twain

The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself. - Sir Richard F. Burton

[Jasonds23]

"seek and you will find"

[nzric]

"seek and you will find"
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts" - Sherlock Holmes

.........

"Well, I started to tell you of my education, didn't I? But I learned
nothing, you see, very little even about myself. And if I had I should
die with my lips shut and the guard on my fountain pen--as the wisest
men have done since--oh, since the failure of a certain matter--a
strange matter, by the way. It concerned some sceptics who thought they
were far-sighted, just as you and I. Let me tell you about them by way
of an evening prayer before you all drop off to sleep.

"Once upon a time all the men of mind and genius in the world became of
one belief--that is to say, of no belief. But it wearied them to think
that within a few years after their death many cults and systems and
prognostications would be ascribed to them which they had never
meditated nor intended. So they said to one another:

"'Let's join together and make a great book that will last forever to
mock the credulity of man. Let's persuade our more erotic poets to write
about the delights of the flesh, and induce some of our robust
journalists to contribute stories of famous amours. We'll include all
the most preposterous old wives' tales now current. We'll choose the
keenest satirist alive to compile a deity from all the deities
worshipped by mankind, a deity who will be more magnificent than any of
them, and yet so weakly human that he'll become a byword for laughter
the world over--and we'll ascribe to him all sorts of jokes and vanities
and rages, in which he'll be supposed to indulge for his own diversion,
so that the people will read our book and ponder it, and there'll be no
more nonsense in the world.

"'Finally, let us take care that the book possesses all the virtues of
style, so that it may last forever as a witness to our profound
scepticism and our universal irony.'

"So the men did, and they died.

"But the book lived always, so beautifully had it been written, and so
astounding the quality of imagination with which these men of mind and
genius had endowed it. They had neglected to give it a name, but after
they were dead it became known as the Bible."

- F Scott Fitzgerald - "The Beautiful and the Damned"

[reikislapper]

In short, you didn't like Christanity because you wanted to be your own god?

Hang on a second, I'm not having a go at the christians just because they follow their God. I don't think that your being very fair with your reply because you have no idea what I believe or follow so please get to know what I do before you make any self judgement please weirdalan.

I had used to follow the same God as the christian belief but it wasn't for me and I decided before it caused to much grief to get out before it did me too much harm. I was a pagan witch before this and I've gone back to what I know and I feel like I'm more at home now than I ever was. I also follow some of the buddhist principles as well but that doesn't make me a buddhist. I have a more open mind than I ever had now and want to learn stuff from different religions, they are basically all the same ideals anyway so don't juge or you'll be judge in the same say. I'm sure there's a line like that in the bible lol :D :D .

[Capt Ann]

I'm sorry, fallentoa, but I don't understand your beef with wierdallen. You accuse him of being judgemental, but all he did was examine what you said.

As far as I can tell there are only two options: either:
1. There is a God, or
2. There is not a God.

Now, if there is a God, then He is the way He is (speaking of lines in the Bible, I recall one like that, too :) ). No amount of opinion (yours, mine, or anyone else's) will do anything to change the way He is. So, when you said that you left Christianity because you wanted to follow your own way and not have someone tell you what to believe, it could only mean one of two things:
A. You do not believe in God as described in Christianity, so you wanted to follow your own opinions, desires, and ideas , or
B. You left Christianity because you were really turned off by people who continually told you that, "If you're a Christian, than you must believe, do, say [i]these certain things."
I think what you said sounds like 'A' (therefore, wierdallen's comment), but I think what you really meant was 'B'. If I'm right, please clarify, and give wierdallen the benefit of the doubt. Also, if I'm right, than you should know that people throughout time have said Christianity means a lot of things that it really doesn't. Christianity is the most liberating of all beliefs because it is really a living relationship with the God who created you. You can talk with Him, and He can talk with you. He can be involved in your day-to-day life no matter how you dress, how many tatoos or piercings you do/don't have, how much you smoke, what kind of make-up you use, where you work, what your education is or isn't, what language you speak, what music you like, and whether or not you chew gum. It has the fewest 'rules' of any religion or philosophy, yet it affects every decision and relationship in all of life.

Anyway, just some food for thought..... Maybe wierdallen is right. Or, maybe you haven't really rejected Christianity: maybe you've just rejected what some people have said about Christianity.

Good luck and God bless in your journey :)

[Jasonds23]

Nzric, to understand the bible, you must first search
for something outside of yourself that is bigger than you
are. That, maybe, something you didn't even know proves
the existence of God. Now, as far as here-say, yes....
this book called the bible looks like a big book of fairy tales.

But, for those of us who understand literacher on a basis
of having compaired a few books in school. There is a book
that has totally eradicated logic, in every sense of the word,
and remains the biggest source of logic on the planet!

Those of us who know God, and have felt a contact with the
creator, we know that there is a bigger struggle going on in
the physical world. And there is a reason for such proofs of
non-existence when it comes to the Amighty Creator.

Many of us who find ourselfs not so sckeptical, often stand
on the fence and go "yeah right, hows it supposed to pay my bills?"
But on the other hand, God doesn't demand his children very much
from them other than simple devotion. I don't have to prove some
body wrote the bible, just because it's sitting in front of me....

The skeptics love to spend all day looking for some excuse,
that is, why we shouldn't believe anything that he said was true.
However, Yes Jesus IS real, and however Yes, Jesus IS the way.
How did I know?? Where's the big proof? Did he pop up and tell me?

Answer is yes: The bible told me so. :Angel:

[Omicron]

Nzric, to understand the bible, you must first search
for something outside of yourself that is bigger than you
are. That, maybe, something you didn't even know proves
the existence of God. Now, as far as here-say, yes....
this book called the bible looks like a big book of fairy tales.

So in other words, I have to believe in God to be able to believe in God, right? I'm not going to search for something I don't believe is there.

[Jasonds23]

Well yeah dude, doesn't it take faith?

[Omicron]

Well yeah dude, doesn't it take faith?
I'm sorry, but if I'm going to accept something as cosmic truth it has to be pretty self-evident and flawless in its explanation of the universe, and I don't see that in Christianity.

[Jasonds23]

Maybe, thats because you quoted me, 'instead' of Christ?

[Omicron]

All I'm saying is that in all the times I've gone to church, and all the reading of the Bible I've done, I remain unconvinced that any of it is true.

[iTengu!]

All I'm saying is that in all the times I've gone to church, and all the reading of the Bible I've done, I remain unconvinced that any of it is true.

Do a google on "bible archaeology"

[nzric]

Jasonds23 - I think you're missing the point. You're saying the way to believe in god is to already believe in god, but one of the first rules in making a decision is not to go have a preconceived notion of the facts.

Yes, if you already believe in god you'll feel the presence of god in a gothic cathedral and in a baptisim ceremony, but if you're realistic (i.e. don't have a preconceived judgement) you'll recognise the effect of vertigo and, in the latter case, dizziness and disorientation from the head tilting back and slowing the flow of blood to the brain (happens to be the same thing that stage hypnotists use to increase suggestability).

Strange you think the bible is the key to the best logic in the world... have you also read the Koran, the Torah, the Dao de Jing, the Analects? Plato's Republic? the Book of Mormon? any L Ron Hubbard? :D How do you know that if you learnt Pali and read the Buddhist Tipitaka, that it wouldn't give you a greater insight into an ultimate "truth" than your bible? Isn't that being a bit arrogant to assume you wouldn't?

Or is it just sheer good luck that you've been born into a culture that has the one "true" book out of all the others?

.........


Capt Ann: "It has the fewest 'rules' of any religion or philosophy, yet it affects every decision and relationship in all of life."
Aikimac: "He was teaching the Old Testament. Jesus didn't make up anything new -- he repeated the Old Testament. That's actually refreshing in light of his position as God Himself. I'd be quite disturbed if he made up something new."

Huh?

.........

From two "living gods":

Jesus:
"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

The Dalai Lama:
"I am a Buddhist and my whole way of training is according to the Buddhist teaching or Buddha Dharma. Although I speak from my own experience, I feel that no one has the right to impose his or her beliefs on another person. I will not propose to you that my way is best. The decision is up to you. If you find some point which may be suitable for you, then you can carry out experiments for yourself. If you find that it is of no use, then you can discard it."

[reikislapper]

I'm sorry, fallentoa, but I don't understand your beef with wierdallen. You accuse him of being judgemental, but all he did was examine what you said.

As far as I can tell there are only two options: either:
1. There is a God, or
2. There is not a God.

Now, if there is a God, then He is the way He is (speaking of lines in the Bible, I recall one like that, too :) ). No amount of opinion (yours, mine, or anyone else's) will do anything to change the way He is. So, when you said that you left Christianity because you wanted to follow your own way and not have someone tell you what to believe, it could only mean one of two things:
A. You do not believe in God as described in Christianity, so you wanted to follow your own opinions, desires, and ideas , or
B. You left Christianity because you were really turned off by people who continually told you that, "If you're a Christian, than you must believe, do, say [i]these certain things."
I think what you said sounds like 'A' (therefore, wierdallen's comment), but I think what you really meant was 'B'. If I'm right, please clarify, and give wierdallen the benefit of the doubt. Also, if I'm right, than you should know that people throughout time have said Christianity means a lot of things that it really doesn't. Christianity is the most liberating of all beliefs because it is really a living relationship with the God who created you. You can talk with Him, and He can talk with you. He can be involved in your day-to-day life no matter how you dress, how many tatoos or piercings you do/don't have, how much you smoke, what kind of make-up you use, where you work, what your education is or isn't, what language you speak, what music you like, and whether or not you chew gum. It has the fewest 'rules' of any religion or philosophy, yet it affects every decision and relationship in all of life.

Anyway, just some food for thought..... Maybe wierdallen is right. Or, maybe you haven't really rejected Christianity: maybe you've just rejected what some people have said about Christianity.

Good luck and God bless in your journey :)

What I meant was that I don't follow the God you choose to believe in anymore, it's my choice and no one elses. I don't make myself out to be a God or anything else as I'm just a person with many faults trying to get by like everyone in here. We aren't perfect and never will be. I just hate certain ones whom I used to have as friends of mine (when I used to follow what they said, seeing that they were eldership in the so called church) but they now tell the same people to not even speak to me becuse I'm in the grips of Satan. Who gives christians the right to judge and who you follow, I've always had a gripe about this one even when I followed to christian way of life. In the Pagan Path we follow what is right with everyone "Do what you will and Harm None" not much different to the christian belief is it. This isn't my thoughts but we all have a responsibility to take care of each other and also help when we can. Is this so wrong and is it my own Godlike views or is it something which has been going for centuries or what.

I don't have a gripe with anyone on here it's just that wierdallen put his judgement before getting to know what I believe. Is this right or wrong in any christian view, I also know plenty of scripture which says otherwise but I'm not going there as it would be unfair to everyone in here. I chose to leave what's wrong in my life with the christian side as I couldn't live a lie any longer. I want freedom to do what I'm supposed to be doing in this world but I was always stopped as they didn't agree with how I did it lol. I had to be under some legalistic path which was so wrong for me and I know which path I'd rather be at right now and it's this one I'm on. I hope I've been able to clarify a tiny bit for you and hope that you don't see me as I'm getting at anyone as I'm not just give me a chance and I'll answer anything you want in this area.
Lisa xx

[Strafio]

So basically, Fallentoa isn't making up her own God, her experience of "God" is just far removed from everything those "Christians" used to believe in.
So she's finding God through her own personal experience.

Anyone who accuses her of rejecting God because she doesn't follow their doctrine is either arrogant, ignorant or both.

Not meaning to have a go at anyone but it is a silly thing to say to someone.

[AZeitung]

Yes, if you already believe in god you'll feel the presence of god in a gothic cathedral and in a baptisim ceremony, but if you're realistic (i.e. don't have a preconceived judgement) you'll recognise the effect of vertigo and, in the latter case, dizziness and disorientation from the head tilting back and slowing the flow of blood to the brain (happens to be the same thing that stage hypnotists use to increase suggestability).


Sorry, but I can't remember the last time I felt anything like what you're describing in a church.

[aikiMac]

Anyone who accuses her of rejecting God because she doesn't follow their doctrine is either arrogant, ignorant or both.
Oh. Interesting. Jesus is either arrogant, ignorant, or both. I haven't heard that claim before.


Aikimac: "He was teaching the Old Testament. Jesus didn't make up anything new -- he repeated the Old Testament. That's actually refreshing in light of his position as God Himself. I'd be quite disturbed if he made up something new."

Huh?
What do you mean "huh?" ? I said this in the context of the "Golden Rule" as taught by Jesus -- "Do to others as you would have them do to you." Luke 6:31, and Matthew 7:12. I've seen equivalent statements of the Golden Rule from the holy books of like two dozen religions, so the teaching must be a good teaching. I said that Jesus got it from the Old Testament. I didn't make that up. It's the explicit claim of Jesus in both the Matthew and the Luke passages. He said that he was echoing the law and the prophets of the Old Testament.

So, I don't know what you mean by "huh?"

[Radok]

You never know... the message might be the same and the path to the message may be a better fit for you!
There may be a lot to learn from those books as well!
Negative. The message is not the same, and Christianity is not capable of being mixed with any other religion.

[Jasonds23]

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"I think you're missing the point. You're saying the way to believe in
god is to already believe in god, but one of the first rules in making
a decision is not to go have a preconceived notion of the facts."
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Nzric,

I see what your saying and why, though no one can see
the top of the mountain from the valley....so to speak....
I believe Christianity and what it has to offer, is a journey
that does not end, when you believe.

Though I was raised in church most of my childhood, what
brought me closer to God was more than what Church could
offer me, at that time.

I think Church is an excellent place to worship and experience,
but for me, I found God in the most unlikliest of places.

Here, is what I can tell you. When you say, I can't believe if
I already don't believe, how does it begin, to begin with?
There is only one source.

One day, you believe, and everyday after that, is different.
I've known some total wacked out drug addicts who lived on
the streets their whol life almost, and had a good concept of
God in Heaven. Not even just the knowledge, but the
relationship, is necessary. Anyone can change their life
with faith in Christ!

I've read about all the other religions, and if you read the Bible,
it clearly explains how to look at those....though I'm not saying
none of those other prophets might not be in Heaven,...
like Buddah, Mohamed, ah,...Joseph Smith, or other prophets
but the point I'm trying to make is, you can't knock something
you don't even have faith in....

If I say, Jesus is the way, but Buddah is going to hell, then who
do I sound like? Not very much of a Christian will condemn others....

I have read some of the Morman bible, and it seems real odd,
that the natives here in this country have testified to meeting
Christ....and that there is evidence to suggest, the natives here,
where from Judah.....If you've read it, then you should know,
there is alot there to be considered....

Personally, I don't think facts can save anything, you have to
read the Bible and have faith...thats just my opinion...about beliefs.

[Omicron]

OK, I'm about done with this thread. I don't know why I even bother arguing about this kind of thing anymore. BUT...
Oh. Interesting. Jesus is either arrogant, ignorant, or both. I haven't heard that claim before. I'm more than happy to make that claim. The guy lived thousands of years ago, so like it or not he was ignorant of a lot of things we know are true today. And anyone who claims to be the son of God, and who runs around telling people that they will be damned for eternity if they don't follow him is just a LITTLE bit arrogant in my books.
no one can see the top of the mountain from the valley
No, but one can know that the top of the mountain exists, based on other experiences and through basic common sense. It's not a very big stretch of the imagination to know that there is a top of a mountain. It can be quite easily and demonstrably proven without ever actually being there. The same cannot be said for Christianity.
One day, you believe, and everyday after that, is different.
So again you're saying that you can only understand and truly "believe" once you've already chosen to believe. That doesn't stand up to any type of reason that I'm familiar with.

[Thomas]

Negative. The message is not the same, and Christianity is not capable of being mixed with any other religion.
Notice that I used the words "might" and "may"... implying that doing a bit of open minded exploration of other religions, ways of life, and philosophies can help open your eyes to commonalities between races, cultures, and people in general. A person who is secure in their faith should be able to look at others with an open mind... and use that experience to strengthen their own beliefs.

Blindly following anything can be very dangerous in my opinion.

[Capt Ann]

......certain ones whom I used to have as friends of mine (when I used to follow what they said, seeing that they were eldership in the so called church) but they now tell the same people to not even speak to me ..............I want freedom to do what I'm supposed to be doing in this world but I was always stopped as they didn't agree with how I did it lol. I had to be under some legalistic path which was so wrong for me and I know which path I'd rather be at right now and it's this one I'm on. I hope I've been able to clarify a tiny bit for you and hope that you don't see me as I'm getting at anyone as I'm not just give me a chance and I'll answer anything you want in this area.
Lisa xx

Thank you for taking the time to write back. All I can say is, "Yeah, I've been in that church." My own sister was in a very authoritarian church like that, back in college, and it so turned her off that she isn't in church anywhere now. I was in a church like that, and eventually moved, but I saw a lot of people get damaged in their faith along the way. Unfortunately, there are too many legalistic churches, but I see a move away from that as God sovereignly reveals to people how wrong this is.

Jesus had His harshest words for the scribes, pharisees, and lawyers, all the legalists of His day. He said things like "Woe to you!", and publicly rebuked them because they "tie heavy burdens on others, but are not willing to lift them with even one of your fingers". He said that by doing this, they "take away the key of knowledge. You hinder those who would enter, and you do not enter yourselves" (I'm paraphrasing here). You yourself have seen how such actions break relationships, stifle joy, and trample faith underfoot. Jesus said of such actions that it would be better for such 'leaders' to hang a millstone around the neck and jump into the ocean, that to cause someone else to stumble in their faith. I sincerely hope you can find it in your heart to forgive those who were involved, because they will have to give an account.

Please take a chance to look at what Jesus actually taught about leadership, and the way elders are supposed to act. He commands us to "by love, serve one another". We are told to clothe ourselves with humility, and all of us be subject one to another. He told His apostles, when He stooped down and washed their feet, that, "You call me 'Master' and 'Lord', and so you should, for you are right. If I then, being your Lord and Master, wash your feet, so should you also wash one another's feet." He said He left us an example that we should follow. Jesus said that He didn't come into the world to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many. Our culture teaches us that "the Big Dog rules", and leaders should be 'over' their followers. The Bible teaches that leaders are to be servants, who lift others up.

There is a place for church discipline (elders have been given the authority to kick people out of church, for their own good, and to protect others that they might be trying to drag away). But it is never to be used as a 'punishment', it is never supposed to be arbitrary or heavy-handed, and the goal is always only to bring restoration.

Anyway, it sounds like, while you were there, you really loved being in church, learning, being with friends, and a lot of other things that happened (praise and worship? Bible study? Prayer? Outreach?). I'm guessing that is why it hurt so much when these other things happened. What a disappointment! I ask you, though, to please try to look past those actions, and look to the Savior who is still sovereign over all (see comment to nzric below).

You will remain in my thoughts and prayers,
-Ann R.

[Capt Ann]

Capt Ann: "It has the fewest 'rules' of any religion or philosophy, yet it affects every decision and relationship in all of life."
Aikimac: "He was teaching the Old Testament. Jesus didn't make up anything new -- he repeated the Old Testament. That's actually refreshing in light of his position as God Himself. I'd be quite disturbed if he made up something new."

Huh?
OK, Ric, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I understand your 'Huh?' Your 'huh?' is really comment and a question. Your comment: "The Old Testament is a book of nothing but 'rules'. " Your question: "How can you possibly say that Christianity has the fewest 'rules' if Jesus only taught from the Old Testament?" Do I understand you correctly?

I could give you some profound (or, profoundly boring, perhaps) theological answer about the Old Testament being filled with types and shadows and pictures to show us the Messiah and the things to come, or the need for the Law to show us how totally incapable we are of living up to the true standards of a perfect God, no matter how 'good' we think we are. These things are true. But the total 'Law' can be boiled down to two 'rules'.

Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment is, and He answered that the first and greatest commandment was this: You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your mind, and with all your strength, and with all your soul. Then He said that the second greatest commandment was like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Both of these commandments were directly quoted from the Old Testament. And then He added that all the other commandments hang on these two.

It's true: if you love your neighbor, you aren't going to lie, steal, murder, commit adultery, keep that wallet you found, cheat on your taxes, flip off the driver in the next car, etc. etc. And if you love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, then it will affect everything else in your life, including how you speak, what you eat, what you watch on TV, and what you think about. But notice that the changes in what you do come from the inside out. Your heart is set on loving God and your neighbor, and as a result the way you act changes. It is not Christianity if you are given a list of rules on your expected behavior, and told to 'measure up.' Changes take time--that is why we are told not to judge others, because we can't see into their hearts and motives. If someon'e heart is set on these two 'rules', then they are headed in the right direction.

So, Number of 'rules' = 2. Yes, that is the fewest of any major religion or philosophy of which I am aware.

One more, then I'll quit for the night..... ;)

And anyone who claims to be the son of God, and who runs around telling people that they will be damned for eternity if they don't follow him is just a LITTLE bit arrogant in my books.....Unless it happens to be absolutely true.

[shunyadragon]

Alright, this will come as a shock to a lot of you (gidday AikiMac!) but I've decided to read the bible, at least to look seriously at what I've been disagreeing with.

This is the thing... god just came down and told me off :D :Angel: :

I had a dream the night before last - I was on top of a train which was speeding and out of control, and walking over logs and debris to get to the front. Another train came up on the tracks on the other side and some people helped me jump across from the first train to the other one.

I told these people I was trying to get to the back of that train to find a guy and in exchange for helping them with their work, could they tell me all they knew about this guy. They had a big pile of planks of wood and each plank had the title of different bible chapters on them - they were trying to put them all in order.

I sat down next to a kid who was looking for the next plank, which began with John 1:17. I looked through and found it to slot into place, then shortly after I woke up.

Now, I've never read the bible before and most people will know I'm a 'devout' atheist, but the dream was so vivid that the first thing I did on Sunday was get online and find out what John 1:17 was. That passage reads "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."


So I've spooked myself out with the dream - it seems like my subconscious (some of you folk will think it's more) wants me to at least check out the bible. Wasn't exactly a burning bush, more like a not so subtle hint. Yep, I'm one of the biggest sceptics around but it's quite an odd passage to dream about, even from a random selection of bible chapters, and I can't think of anywhere I could've subconsciously heard that passage before.

So, I'll let you know how I go. Don't expect a big conversion but I thought if the Big Man was good enough to come down and give me some advice I should listen to the voices in my head and check out why y'all think it's so great :D

Listening to voices in the head can go many directions. People have told me about dreams from many different worldviews, and my own are also interesting.

In one dream I met an old ugly poor man sieving wheat outside an ancient market. This guy was the ugliest and dirtiest man I had ever seen in my life. His body had many scars and all he wore was a filthy loin cloth. There were rich men there buying his wheat. They were cheating him, he semed to know this but was not concerned. As he sieved the wheat the chaff drifted away in a gentle breeze and became like twinkling stars. Poor children behind him were dancing and playing with the stars as they drifted by. The old man seemed to get a great deal of joy from watching the children play.

I remember talking to him and asking the man some questions, but I do not seem to understand what I said. He shrugs his shoulders and only laughs.

It is best not to get spooked over dreams. It helps to come back down to earth and try and understand the journey through the awareness of many different points of view.

Read more than the Bible. Begin with the first book Gilgamesh.

There are many choices in the journey and many people make different choices and think they made the right one. The irony of most people's search for truth is that they most often pick the religion of their parents or peers.

[aikiMac]

I'm more than happy to make that claim [that Jesus is arrogant]. The guy lived thousands of years ago, so like it or not he was ignorant of a lot of things we know are true today. And anyone who claims to be the son of God, and who runs around telling people that they will be damned for eternity if they don't follow him is just a LITTLE bit arrogant in my books.
You confused me. How dod you get to pick and choose which part to accept and which part to not accept? :confused: You're accepting at face-value Jesus' claim at deity. Fine. But you're ignoring his own description of his life purpose. Huh? Is Luke 24:16 not in your copy of the gospels? Why'd you take it out? What'd you do with Mark 8:31, Mark 9:31, Mark 10:33-34? I totally don't get the rationale for listening to his claim of deity but ignoring his claim about his life's mission. :confused: It went "woosh," right over my head.

[reikislapper]

Negative. The message is not the same, and Christianity is not capable of being mixed with any other religion.


I'm really sorry but I couldn't resist this one lol :D :D :D .

I believe you may be wrong about this one Radok but in the old times before there was christianity in a lot of country's didn't the catholic church steal some of the pagan beliefs lol.
I'm sure the pagan belief of Ostara - Easter
Beltane - May Day
Litha/Lunasa - Harvest
Mabon - Autumn Festival
Yule - Christmas
Who says that christians don't mix their celebrations with other religions :D
lisa xx

[reikislapper]

Thank you for taking the time to write back. All I can say is, "Yeah, I've been in that church." My own sister was in a very authoritarian church like that, back in college, and it so turned her off that she isn't in church anywhere now. I was in a church like that, and eventually moved, but I saw a lot of people get damaged in their faith along the way. Unfortunately, there are too many legalistic churches, but I see a move away from that as God sovereignly reveals to people how wrong this is.

Jesus had His harshest words for the scribes, pharisees, and lawyers, all the legalists of His day. He said things like "Woe to you!", and publicly rebuked them because they "tie heavy burdens on others, but are not willing to lift them with even one of your fingers". He said that by doing this, they "take away the key of knowledge. You hinder those who would enter, and you do not enter yourselves" (I'm paraphrasing here). You yourself have seen how such actions break relationships, stifle joy, and trample faith underfoot. Jesus said of such actions that it would be better for such 'leaders' to hang a millstone around the neck and jump into the ocean, that to cause someone else to stumble in their faith. I sincerely hope you can find it in your heart to forgive those who were involved, because they will have to give an account.

Please take a chance to look at what Jesus actually taught about leadership, and the way elders are supposed to act. He commands us to "by love, serve one another". We are told to clothe ourselves with humility, and all of us be subject one to another. He told His apostles, when He stooped down and washed their feet, that, "You call me 'Master' and 'Lord', and so you should, for you are right. If I then, being your Lord and Master, wash your feet, so should you also wash one another's feet." He said He left us an example that we should follow. Jesus said that He didn't come into the world to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many. Our culture teaches us that "the Big Dog rules", and leaders should be 'over' their followers. The Bible teaches that leaders are to be servants, who lift others up.

There is a place for church discipline (elders have been given the authority to kick people out of church, for their own good, and to protect others that they might be trying to drag away). But it is never to be used as a 'punishment', it is never supposed to be arbitrary or heavy-handed, and the goal is always only to bring restoration.

Anyway, it sounds like, while you were there, you really loved being in church, learning, being with friends, and a lot of other things that happened (praise and worship? Bible study? Prayer? Outreach?). I'm guessing that is why it hurt so much when these other things happened. What a disappointment! I ask you, though, to please try to look past those actions, and look to the Savior who is still sovereign over all (see comment to nzric below).

You will remain in my thoughts and prayers,
-Ann R.

Hi Capt Ann,

I hope you don't mind me writing a reply to you and I understand where your coming from with your sister but I've no intention of ever going back into the christian faith. Yes your right about how I used to enjoy all of the stuff within the church but the main reason I left was because I wasn't happy being there and it's no fault of the church at all, it was me and me alone. I'm a lot happier being on this path as I can now cope with all the different energies I work with. I am a healer and also a pagan witch and I don't intend to change from this path at all. I'm also into shamanism in a big way and I'm getting into the buddhism which I've had an interest for quite a few years since I started Karate (zen buddhism) and now do tai chi.

Forgiveness comes if you've committed a sin, seeing that I don't accept sin as part of my path then I've got a free reign over what I do within my life. Pagans respect life and all what goes with it, I've already mentioned the words we live by, "Do what you will and Harm none". We don't believe anything connected with sin as it's a form of guilt and it doesn't have a place in my path at all. You might not agree with this but I have to respect you seeing that your a person who's on their own path travelling down the road just like me. I wish you the very best on the road you've picked and I do ask that you don't pray for me as I don't agree with it anymore ( I have personal issues on that one ).
lisa xx

[jonmonk]

Hi Capt Ann,

I hope you don't mind me writing a reply to you and I understand where your coming from with your sister but I've no intention of ever going back into the christian faith. Yes your right about how I used to enjoy all of the stuff within the church but the main reason I left was because I wasn't happy being there and it's no fault of the church at all, it was me and me alone. I'm a lot happier being on this path as I can now cope with all the different energies I work with. I am a healer and also a pagan witch and I don't intend to change from this path at all. I'm also into shamanism in a big way and I'm getting into the buddhism which I've had an interest for quite a few years since I started Karate (zen buddhism) and now do tai chi.

Forgiveness comes if you've committed a sin, seeing that I don't accept sin as part of my path then I've got a free reign over what I do within my life. Pagans respect life and all what goes with it, I've already mentioned the words we live by, "Do what you will and Harm none". We don't believe anything connected with sin as it's a form of guilt and it doesn't have a place in my path at all. You might not agree with this but I have to respect you seeing that your a person who's on their own path travelling down the road just like me. I wish you the very best on the road you've picked and I do ask that you don't pray for me as I don't agree with it anymore ( I have personal issues on that one ).
lisa xx

Lisa, wow, hopefully one day I will be able to act with that much grace.

[AZeitung]

I'm really sorry but I couldn't resist this one lol :D :D :D .

I believe you may be wrong about this one Radok but in the old times before there was christianity in a lot of country's didn't the catholic church steal some of the pagan beliefs lol.
I'm sure the pagan belief of Ostara - Easter


The times may be similar, but I'll bet that the Ostara thing didn't celibrate the resurrection of Christ.


Beltane - May Day
Litha/Lunasa - Harvest
Mabon - Autumn Festival

Are these religious festivals?


Yule - Christmas


Unless the Yule celibrates the birth of Christ, the Pagan belief is not the Christian belief.

Dates of Holidays are not the same as religious beliefs.

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

Dates of Holidays are not the same as religious beliefs.
Amen! I hope that puts to rest the "Jesus wasn't born on that date" thing. :)

[tekkengod]

actually, no he wasn't. but cling to your beliefs as you will.

[Scarlet Mist]

actually, no he wasn't. but cling to your beliefs as you will.

Which is what she was trying to say, yeah?

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

actually, no he wasn't. but cling to your beliefs as you will.
I think the point is that the actual date is irrelevant. If Christmas were celebrated on July 25, or any other date, it would still be celebrating the same thing.

[reikislapper]

The times may be similar, but I'll bet that the Ostara thing didn't celibrate the resurrection of Christ.

Are these religious festivals?



Unless the Yule celibrates the birth of Christ, the Pagan belief is not the Christian belief.

Dates of Holidays are not the same as religious beliefs.


No we don't celebrate the resurrection of Christ but neither do we keep him on the cross like a few of the churches lol. The catholic church had been killing innocent people because they didn't follow the faith. The celebrations are religious in a lot of churches as they decorate the chuch in different fruits and veg at the time of harvest, easter eggs and so forth at the time of easter, Christmas tree's , you know when lol. and the rest, I'm sure that you may have noticed this if you go to any church I'm sure lol.
They still took the idea from the pagan path of years ago .
lisa xx

[Strafio]

A weird one I heard was the Buddha's birthday was on 25th of December.

Now I'd heard that Christmas had been tied in to the same dates as yuletide (so Christians and Pagans would celebrate together, even if they were celebrating different things) and Easter to this one of life and new-birth (hence the eggs - kind of goes well with Jesus finding new life again :)) but the Buddha's birthday is completely unrelated to any of these.

Perhaps it wasn't his birthday and someone got it wrong, or perhaps God has a fetish for certain dates when picking his "chosen" people! :D

[shunyadragon]

A weird one I heard was the Buddha's birthday was on 25th of December.

Now I'd heard that Christmas had been tied in to the same dates as yuletide (so Christians and Pagans would celebrate together, even if they were celebrating different things) and Easter to this one of life and new-birth (hence the eggs - kind of goes well with Jesus finding new life again :)) but the Buddha's birthday is completely unrelated to any of these.

Perhaps it wasn't his birthday and someone got it wrong, or perhaps God has a fetish for certain dates when picking his "chosen" people! :D

Got it wrong, Buddha's Birthday is not Dec. 25th.

[AZeitung]

it's. . .

[nzric]

grrr, that's the kind of thing that keeps me awake at night (no wonder I hate crosswords).

Someone do a Google on it and put us out of our misery :D

[Lilika]

April 8th 1029 BC

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/buddhism/35720

Now maybe you can sleep, nzric. :D

[AZeitung]

Plus or minus 500 years.

[tekkengod]

Plus or minus 500 years.

:D HAHAHA!!

[Capt Ann]

..............Forgiveness comes if you've committed a sin, seeing that I don't accept sin as part of my path then I've got a free reign over what I do within my life. Pagans respect life and all what goes with it, I've already mentioned the words we live by, "Do what you will and Harm none". We don't believe anything connected with sin as it's a form of guilt and it doesn't have a place in my path at all. .................
Hey, Lisa!

I hope you don't mind me asking you about paganism. You said you'd be willing to explain some things if I had any questions, but if this gets too personal, we can move the discussion into the PMs (or you can feel free to just tell me to buzz off ;) ).

I had a question about this part of what you said. I think I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure. What I'm hearing is that you don't believe in the whole idea of 'sin'. Since there's no such thing as sin, then there's no guilt, and if there's no guilt, then you don't need to be forgiven of it. First question: Am I understanding what you're saying correctly?

My understanding of 'sin' starts with the understanding that there is a standard, or a law, to which I ought to comply. It then grows from the realization that I have failed miserably (I have not done what I should). Yes, this brings a feeling of guilt, but knowing I have been forgiven removes all that feeling of guilt and encourages me to get up and keep trying.

I understand that you and I don't necessarily believe in the same law/standard. I believe that we will all be held accountable to the standard of God's will, expressed in the Bible, visible in Jesus Christ, and written in our hearts and consciences. Therefore, I believe I need forgiveness for the many times I have violated this standard. Second question: What do you personally do, for those cases where you find that you have violated your own standard? (e.g., believing you should "Harm none", what do you do when you discovver that, by something you've said or done, you have harmed someone?)

Thanks,
Ann R.

[nzric]

My understanding of 'sin' starts with the understanding that there is a standard, or a law, to which I ought to comply. It then grows from the realization that I have failed miserably (I have not done what I should). Yes, this brings a feeling of guilt, but knowing I have been forgiven removes all that feeling of guilt and encourages me to get up and keep trying.

I understand that you and I don't necessarily believe in the same law/standard. I believe that we will all be held accountable to the standard of God's will, expressed in the Bible, visible in Jesus Christ, and written in our hearts and consciences.
I don't want to put words in Lisa's mouth (u can tell me to buzz off too!), but I think a main issue is that while the Bible says there is the "truth"/"law", but many belief systems (inc. paganism??) have the opinion that all truth is relative. One person's saint is another's sinner/mass murderer. People can truly believe in their hearts they're following god's will, but we always see through our subjective glasses, which means faithful christians can burn people at the stake, smother their possessed children and kill the citizens of other nations just as well as the rest of us.

E.g. I'm up to Apostles now. St Peter's just criticised a greedy (capitalist) couple for not giving him all their money, then god strikes them dead on the spot (5:01 & 5:10). Now, if I was their son I'd think that was a bit off, but because it's god's will to kill them it's supposed to be ok. See, it's all relative. :)

Also, with the concept of sin comes the concept of repentence. But Buddhism for example doesn't let you off that easy - you're responsible for all your actions in your life and there's no way to "wipe the slate clean" on your deathbed even if you're truly repentant. Everything in your life adds up to the "lesson" you learn that time around.

[tekkengod]

One person's saint is another's sinner/mass murderer. People can truly believe in their hearts they're following god's will, but we always see through our subjective glasses, which means faithful christians can burn people at the stake, smother their possessed children and kill the citizens of other nations just as well as the rest of us.

E.g. I'm up to Apostles now. St Peter's just criticised a greedy (capitalist) couple for not giving him all their money, then god strikes them dead on the spot (5:01 & 5:10). Now, if I was their son I'd think that was a bit off, but because it's god's will to kill them it's supposed to be ok.

beautiful. very true. God has done some majorly screwed up things on more than a few ocassions. the people who are the most religiously motivated are the ones making the most trouble for the rest of the world.

pope died, yeah, too bad so sad, people die. he was old died naturally. let it go. i don't need a week of it polluting my news channel.

same with Teri Shiavo. not everyones gonna agree with it, thats understandable. but now that all of these phsyco fanatic groups such as "priests for life" a pro life religious group are stirring the pot and dragging this out much longer than it need be, let the woman die and her memeory be long remembered, not turned into a damn religious argument.

between the 2 of them, i'm never gonna hear anything about whats affecting my country a little more vastly, oh i don't know, the WAR for instance, or rising gas prices.

[aikiMac]

E.g. I'm up to Apostles now. St Peter's just criticised a greedy (capitalist) couple ...
Dude, you rock! :D

[reikislapper]

[QUOTE=Capt Ann]Hey, Lisa!

I hope you don't mind me asking you about paganism. You said you'd be willing to explain some things if I had any questions, but if this gets too personal, we can move the discussion into the PMs (or you can feel free to just tell me to buzz off ;) ).

I had a question about this part of what you said. I think I understand what you're saying, but I'm not sure. What I'm hearing is that you don't believe in the whole idea of 'sin'. Since there's no such thing as sin, then there's no guilt, and if there's no guilt, then you don't need to be forgiven of it. First question: Am I understanding what you're saying correctly?



Yes your correct in this one lol. As you know I used to be a christian and had the same ideals but I've changed into the person I shoud have been at the first but I'd been fighting it. When you realise that sin is just another word for guilt your tied to a life of looking for problems what isn't there and you start to see sin in everything you see and do. I don't want a life like that, I know quite a few who do and they're still stuck in the same cycle they've been in for years. If the bible is true then where is the release from it all as Jesus said " he came to release the captives ", why is it then a great deal of christians are stuck in this cycle instead of being free.
Paganism is about being free and I've found that I've changed for the better since I've gone back into the craft. You might not agree with our methods of worship and I don't expect you too but we choose to worship where the nature is and not in a building.



My understanding of 'sin' starts with the understanding that there is a standard, or a law, to which I ought to comply. It then grows from the realization that I have failed miserably (I have not done what I should). Yes, this brings a feeling of guilt, but knowing I have been forgiven removes all that feeling of guilt and encourages me to get up and keep trying.


We also have a standard within the craft and it's called the wiccan rede, this is what most of the pagans/wiccans live by. I just mentioned the part "Do what you will and harm none" as it's too long to write on here, I could do if anyone wants me to. I don't live with the guilt as long as I harm none which can be used in many areas of our lives. We the same as everyone else, it's just that we take full responsibility for our actions and we don't use an old excuse "the devil made me do it", I've heard loads of my past friends and christians in different churches use this one lol, why blame the devil when it's the person who does the wrong and not the devil, can you answer that one lol?. If I do something against another then it's me who takes the responsibility for it and no one else. I don't have to live a life of guilt within the craft as it's not part of our faith.



I understand that you and I don't necessarily believe in the same law/standard. I believe that we will all be held accountable to the standard of God's will, expressed in the Bible, visible in Jesus Christ, and written in our hearts and consciences. Therefore, I believe I need forgiveness for the many times I have violated this standard. Second question: What do you personally do, for those cases where you find that you have violated your own standard? (e.g., believing you should "Harm none", what do you do when you discovver that, by something you've said or done, you have harmed someone?)

I belive in forgiveness as well so we do agree on certain points but within the church I belonged too this happened and I'm saying something personal here. When I first started going to church, I was still messing around with the craft and I was still doing some of the stuff within the craft. I met this church leader through a friend of mine who's wife was dying of cancer and I was helping to look after the kids when she was getting treatment from the local hospital. Anyway this bloke was winding me up as he knew about my near past within the craft and started on me about being a witch and needing deliverence. Anyway some stuff carried on and after time I met up with his group and they really got to me and I did something which I take responsibility for and something happened to him and the group who had a go at me. He's never really forgiven me for what happened and he knew it was me who did it and I admitted it to him and told him why but if christains are so full of forgiveness then why do they still keep people tied to a life of guilt. I did something which was more of protection stuff and not with attack but if it was necessary then I would do it but it would have to be serious for me to do this. I don't mess with the craft as I learnt the hard way as I had something simular happen to me which I'd done to the group and it always comes back on the person who sends it out. This is called the three fold law as if you do something wrong then you should get it back three times three so it's best not to do it in the first place. We don't need to live in the fear of sin as we already know about our actions, I hope you understand this a little more and don't be afraid to ask anything as I'll try and answer anything you ask.
lisa xx

[reikislapper]

I don't want to put words in Lisa's mouth (u can tell me to buzz off too!), but I think a main issue is that while the Bible says there is the "truth"/"law", but many belief systems (inc. paganism??) have the opinion that all truth is relative. One person's saint is another's sinner/mass murderer. People can truly believe in their hearts they're following god's will, but we always see through our subjective glasses, which means faithful christians can burn people at the stake, smother their possessed children and kill the citizens of other nations just as well as the rest of us.


Also, with the concept of sin comes the concept of repentence. But Buddhism for example doesn't let you off that easy - you're responsible for all your actions in your life and there's no way to "wipe the slate clean" on your deathbed even if you're truly repentant. Everything in your life adds up to the "lesson" you learn that time around.

Hang on a second please but doesn't the buddhist view have no guilt in their philosopy as I'm sure I've read this somewhere in one of their books.
Could one of the buddhists tell us if I'm right or wrong please?.
lisa xx

[Capt Ann]

We the same as everyone else, it's just that we take full responsibility for our actions and we don't use an old excuse "the devil made me do it", I've heard loads of my past friends and christians in different churches use this one lol, why blame the devil when it's the person who does the wrong and not the devil, can you answer that one lol?.
I've never used that as an excuse, and I agree that it is abominable. One of the greatest gifts God has given us is our free will. Most of us don't need any help from the devil, to make a wreck of things--we seem to be able to manage that one all on our own :) .

[nzric]

Just reading the book of Paul (who would've thunk it!) and it's interesting that the beginning at least is a pretty in-depth essay about the nature of sin, along the lines of what we're talking about.

Interesting to note too that Paul says without the Law there is no sin, because there's no law to sin against.

I'd be interested to hear your comments about 2:14-2:16 too. Does it imply you can be a good non-christian and still go to heaven? (:))

[Jasonds23]

It says what it says. What do you think it says?

It used to be on scrolls and tablets.
It was a geneology and history of a great nation.
I've never seen the originals, but I bet they weren't numbered.
and I bet there was alot of differences, in them, but we question
if God exists because some of the pages are worn on the scrolls.

Do you have a voice, or is your ego imprinted on a TV?
I have done arrogant things, but I will throw them down.

The real proof is Jesus, but you can't prove something,
thats already been proven. What does this prove to you?
That cows can sacrifice themselves onto a book you made?

If they were please correct me, and I don't believe the originals
had a ribbon markers, and Cow skin covers. (go figure)
If they did, God help us...

I know all my blessings are curses on your TV.
my mistakes are part of your fantasy, or is it?
and I know Jesus was real, because I read it,
and the preacher said it, and I'm still here talking about it!

Though, I'd rather forget I talked about it, on
a flippin MA forum! for cryin out loud, what kind of crap is this?
what the heck are you people up to?

[Capt Ann]

Ric, I think you'll answer your own question as you read just a little bit farther. I'd be interested in your answer to your own question, after you get to ch 4.