What does everyone think of Villari's?

[MerKaBa]

I was just wondering what the Shaolin Kempo community thinks of Fred Villari's dojo. I'm curious because I studied there as a child and made it to a pretty high rank before I quit. I quit due to a number of things, but I honostly didn't enjoy my training there all that much, and I found that when I was forced to defend myself very little of what I learned in there actually helped me.

Anyway I know that it may seem like I have my mind made up on this school, but thats not the case. I'm asking here because I was very young when I left and I was very impatient and undisciplined as a child. Part of me is disapointed in myself for not at least getting to the rank of Shodan. So I've been considering the possibility of going back.

[Andy Cap]

I can't speak to you from a Shoalin perspective, but I can tell you I was offered a Villari's franchise deal when I was a 2nd dan in Tang Soo Do. This made me laugh because I never studied Kenpo or Kempo or even Hapkido. So, what would I be teaching?

[LI GUY]

I went to USSD for a while, didn't they come from Villari's originally?
I heard they train the same(almost) techniques????

[Kwajman]

His ads are kind of comical, but I'm sure he knows his stuff.

[Pacificshore]

MerKaBa:

Thought you might find this interesting reading from another forum. It was a review of the DVD's on Villari's system, but read between the lines, and maybe it'll answer some questions you may have regarding the man or his system that you once trained in :)


Re: Who is Fred Villari?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have just gone over the Villari series of videos of white to black belt. Black Belt magazine after doing a photo shoot with Gm. Villari in their, I think it was May 1975 issue, stated his abilities were as good as anyone elses (peers) of that time. Professor Nick Cerio told me he was a damn good black belt and if he didn't have a bad back which hindered his kicking, he could have been even better. Well, I will take issue with Prof. Cerio or just maybe Gm. Villari's back problem subsided because on these videos he did jump kicking, spin kicking, including spinning back kicks and spinning reverse crescent kicks, hooking kicks, scissor kicks, stepping stool kicks, etc. The range went from the knees and groin to the stomach, back and head and if he had a bad back I know there are those out there that would want the name of his doctor because you wouldn't be able to tell from this video. Gm. Villari's hands were as fast as anyones and quicker then some. He showed nice 'flow' and 'power' with pinpoint accuracy. Bear in mind too that he made this tape pushing 60 years old! I also want to note that I did not just watch clips of the videos but I made sure I watched the whole thing which I feel is imperative before passing judgement. I wish to thank my kempo brother Dan Weston for his asssitance.

A comment was made about his weight in a former post. The man is currently 61 years old and he was over 59 when he made the video. He has put on a few pounds since I left him in 1981 but I don't believe at all that someone would point him out and say he's fat! Give me a break, I have seen pictures of many, many respected seniors in the different kenpo/kempo systems on this forum and a few I 've met in person and still others not on this forum, my point being I've seen some pretty huge guys that would make Mr. Villari look like Jack LaLane in comparison.

A comment was also made on a knife technique. I checked it out. I am also a firm believer that as far as an edged weapon goes there are no really great knife techniques period. I also feel from my training the main objective is to control the knife weilding arm and sometimes, prior to control, a possible fast strike or two to the arm may possibly dislodge the knife. I found this concept in the Villari techniques and one reminded me of 'Glancing Lance', anoher one not shown on the video as a knife technique but a variation of which was given to me in Shaolin Kempo 30 years ago for an overhead knife reminded me of 'Raining Lance'.

I am no longer affiliated with the Villari organization (left in '81) and with some of his schools in my area I guess you could say they are my competition so it doesn't help me to advertise for his studios. My point being there are many fine instructors in his organizations, some I am still friendly with and associate with. I know they are very hard working guys and girls who are truly dedicated to teaching and propagating the martial arts, yet, they always have to live under the shadow of the McDojo insults and so forth. Let's cut these brothers and sisters some slack and not lump everyone into one big bunch. In every large organizations there are the good, the mediocre and, to say the least, the not so good. You all know that. It doesn't matter if it's EPAK, Tracy's, Karazenpo, Shaolin Kempo or whoever. The larger the group the greater the cross section and the higher percentage of good bad and indifferent, not to mention the bigger the organization the more difficult to keep the quality control in check. And yes, some just get a little too greedy. Money is always an evil factor in the commercialism of the martial arts.

For once, let's make this post a positive one for the people on this board who are directly or indirectly connected to the Villari Shaolin Kempo lineage. These hardworking martial artists deserve respect for their efforts. I can't be a hypocrit so I must also state I am still not in favor of video training for black belt ranking although I know it's the current trend. I think they are a great asset and supplement to assist in one's training or to help someone who may be too far away from instructors of a particular system. Just my opinion, maybe I'm wrong, old fashioned and just not with the times. Again, let's make this a positive post. With respect to all, Prof. Joe Shuras
__________________
Professor Joe Shuras, Shichidan, Massachusetts President of Sijo Victor 'Sonny' Gascon's Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu Black Belt Society, Director of Communications/Public Relations of Professor Jaime Abregana's Hawaii Martial Arts International Society & Nick Cerio's Kenpo-Hanshi Craig Seavey.

[Kwajman]

Well that tells me lots more about him than I knew before. I hope he does well with his tapes.

[Satori81]

I trained in USSD for 4-5 years when I was very young. Since my memories were primarily positive, I returned after my stint with the military. Well...a few things must be said.

First of all, regardless of the school/system, there are many good, honest men who have excellent experience and a real love for the martial arts.

That being said, upon first "interviewing" with an instructor, I was quoted an intro price of $260 a month! If I wanted, I could save some money...if I signed a 4 year contract! As if that wasn't bad enough, the instructor had less experience than me, and was clearly around my age.

In response to this, I called my mother (several cities away) and asked why I had stopped training there when I was younger. She said that the test for black belt was in the $300 plus range, and that she couldn't afford it (since she was a single mom).

As you can guess, I hold a rather biased view on the Villari system and USSD in general. However, I again state that many of the instructors are probably good men and women who truly love the art...even if that art is less than ideal.

May you achieve
Satori

[Pacificshore]

I trained in USSD for 4-5 years when I was very young. Since my memories were primarily positive, I returned after my stint with the military. Well...a few things must be said.

First of all, regardless of the school/system, there are many good, honest men who have excellent experience and a real love for the martial arts.

That being said, upon first "interviewing" with an instructor, I was quoted an intro price of $260 a month! If I wanted, I could save some money...if I signed a 4 year contract! As if that wasn't bad enough, the instructor had less experience than me, and was clearly around my age.

In response to this, I called my mother (several cities away) and asked why I had stopped training there when I was younger. She said that the test for black belt was in the $300 plus range, and that she couldn't afford it (since she was a single mom).

As you can guess, I hold a rather biased view on the Villari system and USSD in general. However, I again state that many of the instructors are probably good men and women who truly love the art...even if that art is less than ideal.

May you achieve
Satori
Agreed, that is the unfortunate downside to having martial arts commercialized, and making your living from it :(, but hey if you end up training with a good instructor, then the choice remains yours in the end to pay or not to pay such prices ;)

[KenpoDavid]

Prof Shuras knows a lot. It's why they call him Professor :D

You can't tell much from looking at tapes and even less fomr reading about looking at tapes. Evaluate the instructor most of all before you go back.

[MerKaBa]

Thank you all for your input.


The commercialization was one of the main things that always bothered me as a kid, but I live in NY and though the prices are pretty high they aren't even half of what Satori81 mentioned... in fact just hearing that number made me fel good about the price I used to pay, perhaps they aren't as greedy around here yet?


Also thank you for the information Pacificshore. It definetly helped me to put things into perspective a bit more, and I agree that you can't learn martial arts through videos alone, I think you really need an experienced instructor to point out the things you can't see, but I do think they can be a very usefull training tool.

[Pacificshore]

Also thank you for the information Pacificshore. It definetly helped me to put things into perspective a bit more, and I agree that you can't learn martial arts through videos alone, I think you really need an experienced instructor to point out the things you can't see, but I do think they can be a very usefull training tool.
Your welcome and I'm glad it was of some use to you :)

[octopic]

The Villari organization looks a lot different today than it did 15-20 years ago. It seems like a majority of the 'problem' schools went with USSD. The schools that remained Villari tend to be mainly the ones run by people who have been with the system a very long time. Very few new schools have opened up in the past few years (one in the Wisconsin and one in Texas are all that I know of). Black belt tests are still expensive (which is something that bugs me), but in both my first and second degree tests, I was one of two people testing in front of an 8th degree master, so the price didn't seem all that steep for the 10+ hours of private instruction/beatings. :)

The attitude towards franchises has changed as well. I just moved to a new area and there is no Villari's here. There's one USSD 40 minutes away, and so I checked it out when I got here. The instructor there is a nice guy and seems to be a good martial artist, however, he's the same rank as me and wanted to charge me $250/month. I talked with the Villari org about doing some teaching here and they said go ahead and teach, you can use the Villari name, and if you're doing it on a part-time basis, don't worry about franchise fees. I think if I had asked the same question 20 years ago, the response would've been very different.

[velcrotigger]

When you visited the USSD dojo did they offer to keep you a Black Belt. I'm facing the same issue. I was told that I would need to start off as a white belt all over again. I was hoping that I could demonstrate my knowledge and enter at a higher rank.

[octopic]

When you visited the USSD dojo did they offer to keep you a Black Belt. I'm facing the same issue. I was told that I would need to start off as a white belt all over again. I was hoping that I could demonstrate my knowledge and enter at a higher rank.


That's absurd. They wanted me to retest for my 2nd since they require some different material at 1st, but they were willing to honor my black belt. I could see them keeping you at unofficial 1st and making you retest for your 1st, but starting you at white is just dumb. After all, you have 99.99% of the material that they would test you for black on. Are you sure that the instructor there has anything to teach you? I don't mean this the wrong way, as there are some great people in USSD, but are you sure that studying under this instructor is going to make you a better martial artist?

[velcrotigger]

Who did you talk to?

It may be that each school has its own rules. I may need to speak to the Headquarters and ask them of their position.

Does anyone have any expeirence with this issue? Please tell.

[octopic]

Who did you talk to?

It may be that each school has its own rules. I may need to speak to the Headquarters and ask them of their position.

Does anyone have any expeirence with this issue? Please tell.

I talked with the guy who was running that school. I have no idea if their organization has any official policy when it comes to this situation.

[flyingleopard]

In my opinion their org is all about money, run away and run away fast.

[homer_simps1]

I used to take Villari’s as a kid as well and my brother is best friends with his son Fred Jr. I think it’s a great style. One of my friends (Steve Hagan) is a second degree black belt in Villari’s system and that guy would school me.

On one occasion Steve and I were drinking quite heavily and I decided to see what he was made of (in a friendly drunkin way of course). I was taking San Soo at the time and I just wanted to compare the two styles.

Anyhoo…every attack I threw at him he could counter easily and quickly without hurting me. To make a long story short, we both ended up out of breath and puking our guts out (so I was told the next day after waking up in the back yard of whoever’s house we were at ).

So IMHO Villari’s system works great and I would take it again in a heartbeat, but sadly there aren’t any schools around where I live now. :cry:

[KGS BBS]

Hi guys, that was my review on Gm. Villari's performance on the videos that Pacificshore posted. If you look back on it, you'll notice the different kicks I mentioned Mr. Villari performed in his techniques There's a reason for that since many Kenpo/Kempo systems can be described as an upper body system with low lined kicks. Now Andy Capp posted:

I can't speak to you from a Shoalin perspective, but I can tell you I was offered a Villari's franchise deal when I was a 2nd dan in Tang Soo Do. This made me laugh because I never studied Kenpo or Kempo or even Hapkido. So, what would I be teaching?
__________________

I definitely know where he's coming from but I would like to take the liberty to comment. I have heard this before from a few others when the Villari organization was going through their super-nova expansion. Gm. Villari and his Kempo came from Prof. Nick Cerio who came from Gm. S. George Pesare who came from Gm. Victor 'Sonny' Gascon who was of Kajukenbo. The 'Ka' in Kajukenbo stood for Korean KArate. Wait!, lol, before anyone says the Koreans don't call it Karate, I know that but that's how the old senior Hawaiians referred to it as back then. Probably because it was heavily influenced by Shotokan Karate. Just compare the forms. A Korean name given to a modified Shotokan form which was a Japanese name for a traditional Okinawan kata. My, what a tangled web we weave, lol. My point being, it wasn't that difficult at all for a good Tang Soo Do black belt to convert to this style of kempo. Let me give you a first hand example.

About 25 years ago, I had a highly talented Tang Soo Do black belt come to me for Kempo. The guy was very talented. He came all the time and we trained together also exchanging techniques. Our 1-5 pinan series was very familiar to him, along with our Kata#4 and the Statue of the Crane which all had Korean counterparts. His name was Terry Gourette and he placed in the tournaments he entered in Region 12 (my part of the country) and he went up against their regular contenders, some top names. He was picking up the Kempo system real fast with no problem but I still kept him about a year before I tested him for shodan. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't even think of testing someone in one year, no way under normal circumstances but this guy got it together and did it quite well in a year, it wouldn't have been fair to hold him back any longer. So, I can see why they would have went after a Tang Soo Do guy but do I agree with it? no, of course not besides, my guy wouldn't have been ready to teach kempo right away, it still took a while for him to assist if I needed him.

As far as these schools being all about the money as someone posted? Well, all commerical affiliated schools like this, the chains under one banner, no matter what style they teach, is about making money. Even the independants if they are FULL TIME instructors. They have to be because they operate on a full time basis and the instructors and/or owners are paying the bills and putting food on the table supporting their families. However, there is a right way and wrong way to do it, a compromise has to be made to do it properly but still survive. I, myself, prefer to operate part time. What I mean is, we open every day (except Sundays) but we have full time jobs. So, I only have to compromise enough for liability reasons but even then I take risks with hardcore training. As long as I pay the rent it's fine with me and if I make a few bucks here and there, great!

In defense of the Villari organization today, I have noticed a lot of good things being said about them by ear and in the various forums. It appears their quality control has sky rocketed since they reduced their size and leveled off. Good for them! I personally have experienced this on the east coast in New England, I'm not too familiar with what goes on with the west coast schools though.

Respectfully, Prof. Joe Shuras

[kenpo123]

VIllaries offers 108 combos, id say 100 of em would get you killed if you ever tried them on the street. The kenp teq's same thing. Praticing on the air gives you lots of................nothing......... point sparring............ tag your it!! but$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ will get you all the colors of the rainbow and then some when it comes to belts.. and helll, you dont even need to know your stuff when it comes to testing cause i can bet you your name will be on the certificate before you even enter the test... Just because your Chief Grandmaster is a 2nd degree black belt who self promoted 8 degrees he should have just went to a new level 15th dan anyway{who ran a chain of 10 million dunkin donuts i mean mc d's doesnt mean you cant learn something. Just make sure your instrucotor is older then 12 and doesnt have poker dots on his black belt

ps
next time your in your sensies office check the certificates out, i can bet money that the real Shaolin kenpo seal is not on them.... meaning it is not authentic and that your instructor is not reconized in the world of shaolin kenpo

[Joe V.]

next time your in your sensies office check the certificates out, i can bet money that the real Shaolin kenpo seal is not on them.... meaning it is not authentic and that your instructor is not reconized in the world of shaolin kenpo[/QUOTE]
Are you referring to GM Castro's Shaolin Kenpo? Just curious...
Is there another Shaolin Kenpo branch?
JoeV.

[KGS BBS]

Man, I still don't know why some still feel you're supposed to do techniques, combinations or whatever you want to call them on the street! Hell, you might as well do a kata on the street too. It's all about coordinating the body, developing speed, power and accuracy-movement or the oxy-moron we call movement-balance for how can you move and be totally balanced? You can't, it simply means to be as balanced as you can while moving. The concept of the technique, the core of what it's telling you is also important. The idea. I was taught the most important principle in fighting is the balance/unbalance principle. If you can maintain your balance while breaking your opponent's balance and then you take advantage of their broken balance, you win! even if he/she's a better and tougher fighter than you.

I can poke holes in any sytem's techniques if you want to deal with them as an end all to use on the street, verbatim as taught in the ideal phase. Is 108 combos over kill, ya, and so is 154 of one system's and another system's 500. Prof. Nick Cerio once told me that 20-30 techniques is all you need to sum up the whole system and develop your skills. Most go with a large menu these days, part of commercilism, I guess. The old fighting legends of Hawaii used a limited number of techniques and then borrowed from the basics to create others and became notorious in their day. Prof. Cerio also said show me more than the 20-30 and I'll show you variations. How many does boxing have? Five, maybe six and most average boxers can eat up today's black belts IF they were not trained properly.

Practicing only in the air? I agree. It still should be done, like shadowboxing is to a boxer but you had better get some hardcore contact training in if you wish to have a chance of surviving in a real life confrontation against a worthy opponent. Point sparring? A game of tag" Agreed, it is.

A second degree who self promoted himself 8 degrees. I assume you mean Villari? Yes, it does look that way but one has to becareful because if you delve deeply, very deeply into the martial arts, especially this Hawaiian derived Kenpo/Kempo but other arts too, you will find that Fred Villari went much higher than most icons, both dead and live, that founded 'legitimate' effective fighting systems when they created their dynasties. Many who have called foul, embarrassingly, found the same thing going on with their own grandmaster. This is fact. Back then consider "The One Eyed Man was King in the Land of the Blind", lol. Big names today and, in my opinion, are well deserved of their recognition. Why? Simple, that's how it was done back then PROVIDING, AND I SAY PROVIDING, you had the ABILITY and GUTS to back it up!

If it's the Shaolin KeNpo of SGM. Ralph Castro, he did try to trademark the name but it seems like a losing battle because it has just about become a generic term as saying Okinawan karate and Shaolin kung fu, signifying many styles. Same thing with Shaolin KeMpo. I also agree, you can learn something anywhere simply because the cream always rises to the top. A good instructor is a good instructor period just like a bad instructor is a bad instructor no matter what his rank is or what is stamped and sealed on his certificate. There are some clowns out there with valid names on diplomas! Just things I've learned in almost three and half decades in this 'business', lol. Don't mean to 'jaw' with anyone, just my expereinces and opinions. With respect, Joe

[snow_tiger]

Well said, Joe. Well said...

[kenpo123]

I hope i did not and will not offend anybody by my post, as it was an opionion based on my exp in my villarie dojo! MY knollege of gm villarie came from other forums, my views on the combos and kenpo teq stand strong.. I totaly understand you do not go through mov a-z on the street and that you tkae this and that and understand how the mecanics of the body move through learning these combos as such... but most of the movements and mecanics i feel are horrible.. and we are not taught to disect anything infact we are taught that this is what we do in the street lol.. it saddens me and i have joined a bjj school and go to a boxing club twice a week and im having a great time and learning far far far more relistic and body improving material...

[KGS BBS]

Not at all, kenpo123, this is a discussion forum, full of everyone's opinions, that's what it's for. I understand that. Take care and good luck in your studies, sir.

Thank you, snow_tiger!


With respect, Joe

[kickingfist]

Pro. shuras,
Why did you leave villaris?

[KGS BBS]

Hello kickingfist, I was brought through the ranks and groomed for black belt and then tested by Gm. Villari by Hanshi Craig Seavey, now co-head of Nick Cerio's Kenpo. Craig was an extremely hardcore instructor and was very intimidating but in a good way. Everyone wanted to be like him. He commanded respect but not because he asked for it, you just knew he earned it. He had much respect for those he trained but he trained everyone in the rough & tumble ways that was the old way of Kajukenbo. This is not just my opinion, anyone who studied under him back then will most definitely attest to that. He is one of the toughest s.o.b.'s I ever met and we are still close friends today after our first meeting in 1974. In other words, I'd take a bullet for him.

He left Villari's only because he relocated to the west coast for personal reasons. He studied the arts out there but at this time, there were no Villari schools as of yet. Mr. Villari had used Craig (in a good way, mind you) as a trouble shooter. He was once transfered to another school because of the dojo wars. Another instructor's dojo was raided by several from the John Keehan crew (Count Dante), remember, we're talking the 70's. The chief instructor, defended himself the best he could but still caught a bit of a beating. After all, it wasn't exactly one-on-one if you know what I mean, lol, but the guy had heart. Remember, another guy was killed back then, with a Samurai sword in one of Dante's dojo wars, this was no joke. He came back there the next day to teach, only this time had a baseball bat (Sheriff Buford Pusser-'Walking Tall'-style in the corner of the dojo behind him.) Mr. Villari put Craig there for a while to, let's say, straighten things out, there was a new sheriff in town. He did his job, then came back to Framingham and like I stated eventually relocated to Long Beach, California. Craig had a reputation as your typical bad ass street fighter and that was before he took kenpo so when he told me he had great respect for Fred Villari's fighting abilities, well, that said it all for me.

Now. Mr. V. started his big expansion and things were changing. Shortly before Craig left and he left on excellent terms with Mr. Villari, it had nothing to do with him. Although, Gm. Villari was trying to get Craig to tone down his methods for retention of students nad liability at this time. Fred was crazy in his early years (I say that respectfully,lol) from the Emperado-Gascon-Pesare-Cerio lineage but decided this aggressive type of training wasn't going to work in his expansion plans. Now, Craig leaves and I'm a dinosaur and can't change my training methods, that's why in all my years of teaching I have a much limited number of black belts than the norm these days because you went to hell and back to earn it! Fred was ahead of his time. Much of his early methods have since been adopted by just about everyone in the martial arts world. Hey, I'm no longer with him, since 1981, and I have Villari schools right in my area, I wouldn't be pumping up the competition if it wasn't true. So, that is why I left, I didn't agree in the direction the organization was heading.

In retrospect, I have come to understand Mr. Villari was right in many ways, liability became an issue but it was never heard of in the early years. Student retention is an issue if you want to pay your rent and continue propagating the arts. I think everyone has toned done to some extent, no doubt. You have to reach some type of compromise without selling your soul. My advanced ranking is still extremely hardcore and the lower ranking is no picnic but I still have to compromise a little, especially due to liability these days. However, because my wife and I, who teach, both have full time professions that take care of our everday needs so we teach soley as a hobby that we love to do and money is a secondary concern, as long as we pay our bills to stay open, we're content and if we make a few bucks in the process, great, cause we earned it legit! Hey, if you go to a good college you pay a tuition but as long as you receive a good education than it's all worth it, true? Sorry for the long post but you asked what I feel was an important question about Mr. Villari and since Gm. Villari made it possibile for me to be here to be asked that question in respect to him I just wanted to respond accordingly. Thanks, Prof. Joe

[kickingfist]

Thanks alot prof. joe :)

I cant beleave someone got killed thats wacked! Their were alot of fights between dojos back then? Who were the fights aganst? And why?

[dbmasters]

next time your in your sensies office check the certificates out, i can bet money that the real Shaolin kenpo seal is not on them.... meaning it is not authentic and that your instructor is not reconized in the world of shaolin kenpo

So? If one promotes himself as an authentic Kenpo GM and claims to be certified by whoever, ya, then it's wrong, but I do know my instructor claims affiliation with nobody, is not officially certified by any international organization, but I do know this, he knows Kenpo (among many other martial arts), and he can kick my ass at will, so I have no less respect for him, and, in fact, have great respect for him.

Point being, I don't think any "official seal" is the only way to judge someone worth.

[KGS BBS]

Nothing wrong with that, sir. Many of the founding fathers were never originally certified or sanctioned by any organization or associations because they were not even exist then. Ed Parker was one of the first in America when he got the IKKA started for it seems that purpose. One of it's first actions was to certifiy him for 6th degree black belt just prior to the long Beach Internationals. Later, '78, Adriano D. Emperado awarded him an 8th degree black belt for his contributions to the art. As C.E.O. of his own organization and father of his American Kenpo system, he later took the 10 th degree black belt.

There is a very fine line drawn with this legitimate rank thing, it can be very controversial as you keep checking back in history. So I think we should be very flexible in our thoughts on this matter. In my research on the degrees of black belt rankings, the first article I put up a link to for it's entirety explains how the black belt rank started and it's bascially as you stated about your instructor. check it out. The ranking didn't start until Funakoshi going to Japan, so it came about well after 1900's, around 1922.

All these guys Sakaguwa, Matsumura, Itosu, etc. were all judged on their skills and never held any rank, never mind being sanctioned by an association. Ranking was soley for sport divisions started by Judo's founder, Professor Jigora Kano, for competition. Then Japan wanted Funakoshi to have some type of measuring stick when he introduced karate to Japan, becasue of Judo, hense the arbitrary 5th dan was picked for him and was and still is the pinnacle in Funakoshi Shotokan, he held the 5th rank until he passed. The other offshoot organizations like the J.K.A. went from 5th, to 7th and finally the 10th I believe.

A close associate from Hawaii, A Kajukenbo Professor once told me and he even posted it on the Kajukenbo Cafe that an old senior grandmaster in Hawaii in Kajukenbo whom he has the utmost respect for and always calls him grandmaster as he truly deserves, never went any higher than purple belt for rank, not knowledge and skill though which he continued to proggress and learn. He stated many don't know this and it's kept quiet because his lineage might question their own legitmacy if it was made public. I say that's all b.s. because that was common back then, again, does that mean Okinawan karate lineage connected to Sakaguwa, Matsumura and Itosu are not legit because they held no official rank? With respect, Professor Joe

[dbmasters]

Yeah, that's the stuff, judging people by skill, not by the color of belt, or ever more, what stamp or seal is on the cert. I have learned the lineage of my Kenpo system, modified slightly from instructor to instructor...and it's quite interesting. What I do know, is "official" or not, myself and my family are learning some great skills, having fun and getting in shape...and you can't beat that. And every rank our instructor gives us I respect as being earned by skill because I know my instructor and he doesn't take his arts lightly, it's the love of the art...

[KGS BBS]

Good points sir, and you have a good attitude combined.

[KGS BBS]

kickingfist, the fights did happen but I wouldn't say it was like a steady thing or anything like that. They were here and there. Dante's group are the one's that really brought things to light with the death of a student. I want to say the name of the victim was something like John Konsevic, or something like that. This is no b.s. story, it's a documented case. I can't remember but it may have been something like a turf war. Do some checking on the net, you'll find it.

Most of the others were simply motivated by badmouthing. Today it's done in cyberspace but back then, for example, if another school or instructor was being publically badmouthed, you had better keep an eye out for who comes through your door or is waiting for you in the parking lot by your car because that's how these things were settled. Again, not all the time but by the few that would take it right to your face. Back then, it would be unmanly to call the cops or take court complaints out. You'd be scoffed at. So, if you caught a beat'n, you licked your wounds and watched what you said next time. The only serious case I ever heard of was the Dante encounter which of course resulted in death. The Villari guy wasn't badmouthing anyone from what I heard, it was Dante's group doing it simply over turf. Most were just fights, some were sparring type matches but kind of like what the Japanese used to call back in the early years a 'Ketsugo' match-meaning something like 'anything goes'. It was a definitely colorful era. Respectfully, Prof. Joe

[DAnjo]

I really enjoy Shaolin Kempo. Prof. Joe is exactly right that principles are more important than the actual techniques. The techniques are used to build the muscle memory and reflexes, but that is the same in any art. I mean I guess everyone could drill in single techniques and leave combinations out, but that wouldn't facilitate the flowing from one technique and range to another the way practicing combos do. Hell, even boxers drillin combinations and I doubt that they are considered ineffective.

[DAnjo]

kickingfist, the fights did happen but I wouldn't say it was like a steady thing or anything like that. They were here and there. Dante's group are the one's that really brought things to light with the death of a student. I want to say the name of the victim was something like John Konsevic, or something like that. This is no b.s. story, it's a documented case. I can't remember but it may have been something like a turf war. Do some checking on the net, you'll find it.

Most of the others were simply motivated by badmouthing. Today it's done in cyberspace but back then, for example, if another school or instructor was being publically badmouthed, you had better keep an eye out for who comes through your door or is waiting for you in the parking lot by your car because that's how these things were settled. Again, not all the time but by the few that would take it right to your face. Back then, it would be unmanly to call the cops or take court complaints out. You'd be scoffed at. So, if you caught a beat'n, you licked your wounds and watched what you said next time. The only serious case I ever heard of was the Dante encounter which of course resulted in death. The Villari guy wasn't badmouthing anyone from what I heard, it was Dante's group doing it simply over turf. Most were just fights, some were sparring type matches but kind of like what the Japanese used to call back in the early years a 'Ketsugo' match-meaning something like 'anything goes'. It was a definitely colorful era. Respectfully, Prof. Joe

It was Koncevic. It was the Green Dragon Dojo that Dante and Koncevic went to invade and resulted in Koncevic getting killed by either a spear or sword. This was in Chicago. Fall River Mass. was the other power base for Dante and Aguiar and the Black Dragon Fighting Society. Aguiar's son, Bill Jr. is still running it.

[dbmasters]

Good points sir, and you have a good attitude combined.
Thank you, sir.

It's been a long time since any hobby or pasttime has consumed me the way Martial Arts has, I'm loving every minute of it, as do my wife and daughters...well, daughters (ages 5 and 8) interests flows with the wind, but overall they enjoy it :-)

[kickingfist]

kickingfist, the fights did happen but I wouldn't say it was like a steady thing or anything like that. They were here and there. Dante's group are the one's that really brought things to light with the death of a student. I want to say the name of the victim was something like John Konsevic, or something like that. This is no b.s. story, it's a documented case. I can't remember but it may have been something like a turf war. Do some checking on the net, you'll find it.

Most of the others were simply motivated by badmouthing. Today it's done in cyberspace but back then, for example, if another school or instructor was being publically badmouthed, you had better keep an eye out for who comes through your door or is waiting for you in the parking lot by your car because that's how these things were settled. Again, not all the time but by the few that would take it right to your face. Back then, it would be unmanly to call the cops or take court complaints out. You'd be scoffed at. So, if you caught a beat'n, you licked your wounds and watched what you said next time. The only serious case I ever heard of was the Dante encounter which of course resulted in death. The Villari guy wasn't badmouthing anyone from what I heard, it was Dante's group doing it simply over turf. Most were just fights, some were sparring type matches but kind of like what the Japanese used to call back in the early years a 'Ketsugo' match-meaning something like 'anything goes'. It was a definitely colorful era. Respectfully, Prof. Joe

Thanks Prof. joe,

I read on another forum how a former instructor from ussd was jumped
and crippled and was beatin with bars while walking home. My guess they werent to happy he opened his own dojo.
Thanks for the info sir.

[Red J]

The Villari organization looks a lot different today than it did 15-20 years ago. It seems like a majority of the 'problem' schools went with USSD. The schools that remained Villari tend to be mainly the ones run by people who have been with the system a very long time. Very few new schools have opened up in the past few years (one in the Wisconsin and one in Texas are all that I know of). Black belt tests are still expensive (which is something that bugs me), but in both my first and second degree tests, I was one of two people testing in front of an 8th degree master, so the price didn't seem all that steep for the 10+ hours of private instruction/beatings. :)


Like Octopic, I have have some of the same views. My test was 8+ hours with an 8th, a 7th, and three 4ths. There were only three of us testing. It was a challenge and a learning experience. My experience has been positive considering some of the stories that I have heard from the late 80s. It seems that the masters that I have met are very skilled, and have been around for quite a while, though quite a few of them are not running schools anymore.