Hapkido and Bjj

[hapkidofighter]

Hello all- I don't post here much but I would like the opinions of some fellow hapkido practitioners. I train with GM Bong Soo Han in Santa Monica. When I was younger I used to train at Rickons school which is actually very close to GM Hans. My brother started training in bjj again around a year ago and I realize now how much I miss it, and also, how useful ground fighting is. Unfortunately, ground fighting is not stressed at the Hapkido school I go to. We do have it in our curriculum, but not until your like a 4th dan (which won't be for a good 20 or so years^^;)-- I am never going to leave hapkido, but after I graduate high school I will have a lot of free time opening up, so I'm thinking of starting up my training again at Ricksons place again-
Do you think bjj and Hapkido would go well together?
Has anyone mixed these styles?

[Juego Todo]

If you love both styles, nothing should stop you from trying to learn both.

Obviously, BJJ rules on the ground. HKD has great stand-up grappling & striking. Sounds like complementary fighting styles, IMHO. Plus, you're learning from the pioneers of both arts: Rickson Gracie & Bong Soo Han! How many people can be so lucky as you?! :)

All the best...

P.S. Have you seen both of your teachers in action on film? If not, check-out the documentary "Choke" with RG. Also, check-out the Billy Jack series of movies with BSH which should be available in video stores for rental.

[Coges]

Have to agree with Juego Todo here that I think they will be complimentary styles. You'll be able to own people in any position. I have a BJJ club near me and am thinking about doing the same thing once I finish working on the weekends so let us know how you find training them both together.

[hapkidofighter]

P.S. Have you seen both of your teachers in action on film? If not, check-out the documentary "Choke" with RG. Also, check-out the Billy Jack series of movies with BSH which should be available in video stores for rental.

haha- yes- I own both Billy jack and choke- and love them both
My mom said back when billy jack came out it was amazing- I really liked the fight scene with GM Han but I couldn't stand to watch the rest of the movie lol

[Xerxes]

Hapkidofighter,

I'm kind of surprised by what you wrote. I have studied hapkido at two entirely different places(different organizations, different instructors, etc). In both places ground grappling was trained from very early kup ranks. I can not think of why they would not do that at Han's place. Maybe should ask them why.

[bvermillion]

i have trained in hapkido and bjj, i am not currently training in hkd because i am in the military and they have moved me to a desolate cow field that has nothing i am lucky they have a bjj program here on base. i think they are very complimentary styles. i have used alot hapkido principles in my jj

[HTC]

I have taken hapkido before and i currently train in Bjj, hapkido is a wonderful art but the reality factor never sat in for me. In BJJ we train for our takedown, joint locks, throws and ofcourse ground grappling/submission/fighting and we start fully sparring from the first class. Now some have the choice of sparring if they like, I sparred from the very first day in bjj. In BJJ you will learn every move that the art has to offer from days 1. You dont have to wait till you are a blackbelt to learn the higher end moves, but although you will be shown beginner to advance moves as a white belt your ranking of belts depends on how many mat hours you have and how well you have perfected the moves. BJJ belt grading are among the toughest and can take a long time. I know blue belts that have been tarining for 8-10 years.

[hapkidofighter]

I agree with you- My hapkido school however, is extremly good. Conditioning, sparring, jointlocks, take downs, throws, striking, its all coverd- the only thing i miss is the ground work

[Jumper53]

Wow... to have a choice between an awsome HKD Grand Master and a God-like figure in the world of BJJ and MMA.

I train in Calgary, Alberta with another HKD Grand Master with a similar background to GM Han. Some of my friends are senior students or instructors in other arts including BJJ and MMA. Once a week we get together and spar/grapple.

I would say that HKD and BJJ are very similar. If you just pracrice the basic ground positions HKD becomes very easy to apply on the ground. It is worth noting that both systems have strong ties to Old School Combative Japanese Jujitsu. If you practice some ground basics and your HKD together with some friends outside class time you would be getting similar ability as BJJ. (though nothing would truly replace being a student of Rickson.)

Just to be a devil's advocate here but you might consider studying another style that is not so similar like Boxing, Tia, Wrestling, or weapon training. Just a brief exposure to other styles will let you see how amazingly awsome HKD is, and help you see some details about your HKD that you may not have seen otherwise.

Of course you must not get too distracted by other styles and always bring them back into a HKD context.

[hapkidofighter]

Wow... to have a choice between an awsome HKD Grand Master and a God-like figure in the world of BJJ and MMA.

I train in Calgary, Alberta with another HKD Grand Master with a similar background to GM Han. Some of my friends are senior students or instructors in other arts including BJJ and MMA. Once a week we get together and spar/grapple.

I would say that HKD and BJJ are very similar. If you just pracrice the basic ground positions HKD becomes very easy to apply on the ground. It is worth noting that both systems have strong ties to Old School Combative Japanese Jujitsu. If you practice some ground basics and your HKD together with some friends outside class time you would be getting similar ability as BJJ. (though nothing would truly replace being a student of Rickson.)

Just to be a devil's advocate here but you might consider studying another style that is not so similar like Boxing, Tia, Wrestling, or weapon training. Just a brief exposure to other styles will let you see how amazingly awsome HKD is, and help you see some details about your HKD that you may not have seen otherwise.

Of course you must not get too distracted by other styles and always bring them back into a HKD context.

I do roll alot with my friends who do jiu jitsu so that does help when trying to apply hapkido locks to the ground. When i was starting to do hapkido- my mother and father wanted to take up tai chi- so i found an instructor who would come to our house and tutor us privatley. It turns out that along with tai chi, he is also very experienced in sil lum fut ga and shuai chiao. So for the past few years hes been teaching me tai chi. He kind of took me under his wing so hes been teaching me alot of shuai chiao latley as well . I have played around a little in other systems like escrima and stuff- i cant wait to learn hapkido weapons and see how they compare
:D

[Jumper53]

The Weapon systems of HKD and Korea seem to be right in the middle of other famous weapon systems, kinda like how Korea is in the middle of Asia so you can see the martial arts influence from many other countries.

The Dan Bong is my favorite, a short stick only about 12 inches long and tapered in the middle. It’s use is very similar to Escrima stick fighting but it can also be used as a thrusting weapon like a knife, and the butt end hammer smashes are a lot more common. It is also used to activate pressure points during throws and joint locks. Your Escrima training will complement this weapon well, it has many similarities to Philippine and Tai weapons.

The Sword techniques are very similar to Japanese Kendo. There are also many forms from the old Hwrang Warrior days with one or two swords held inverted, very smooth and in contrast with the quick lines of Kendo.

The long staff is used very similar to the Japanese/Okinawa staff techniques.

And of course the Hapkido Cane. It can be used like a simple medium stick. The hook on the end can be used to hit pressure points like the back of the opponent’s leg or neck even if you are standing in front of him. The hook is also great for trapping limbs and controlling the opponent’s movement. They also use the cane to assist with throws and joint locks. If you combine the Chinese creativity with daily objects as weapons and usual ways to use them with the power and Tan Jon movement of the Koreans you have the Hapkido Cane.

To: Hapkidofighter, since most of us are in HKD, can you tell us what it is like in Rickson’s class?

[jms969]

I teach TKD, train in HKD and just started BJJ. I think BJJ rounds out the package very nicely...

Go for it.

[Stormrider]

Heya Hapkidofighter,

Good to see more folks from socal on here. Are you considering the Gracie Academy in Torrance or does Rickson have a gym up on the westside somewhere? I was considering the torrance gym but found some great BJJ clubs down in Huntington Beach.

I do TKD, HKD, and BJJ and love it. There is alot of crossover between them so that I don't feel like I am really sacrificing anything. Instead it feels like each of my arts is becoming stronger by training in the others as well. For HKD I study privately under Master Jeung Young Seo, but am looking for a good dojang to join where I can fit classes in my schedule and budget.

To address your question more specifically, I think the styles blend really well together. Having HKD will give you a solid striking base and I find the weapons work to be enjoyable. Things like takedowns, throws, breakfalls, locks, and such I have noticed alot of overlap and see the two arts as very complementary. You should become a very well rounded fighter so take advantage of your great opportunity.

I also love TKD, but I am fortunate to train under a WTF master that encourages my cross training and doesn't just train us for point sparring. :)

[wild_pitch]

i don't understand hapkido should be an INTEGRATED complete system why would you need to take all these different arts? partucularly ones based on very different body mechanics.

at our school ground fighting takes equal precedence with everything else, dynamic striking and kicking is all part of the curriculum.

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

I agree with Wild Pitch, I am never quite sure why people find it important to cross train before they have any real standing in one art. I think that if you have all that free time, devote it to the study of a single art, then in 20-30 years, if something is still lacking, move to another art.

With respect to Hapkido, I am in my third decade of training, and find neither the time or desire to train outside the art - there is just too much here to learn.

[Spikedude]

I do both and boy do they work together. One time i was ground fighting this guy i know who takes BJJ and I couldnt get him in a arm bar so I put him in a goose neck.

[doshim]

I do both and boy do they work together. One time i was ground fighting this guy i know who takes BJJ and I couldnt get him in a arm bar so I put him in a goose neck.

I posted this somewhere else, but I think it fits nicely in this thread.

Please forgive the length. I got on a roll...

This whole notion of “Cross-training” in a Martial Art strikes me as odd. If you look at Martial Arts as a sport, then I guess it makes sense. I can see cross-training cycling with jogging. But, learning a martial art cannot compare with jogging or cycling. True martial arts training has so much more depth. Most people in our contemporary society don’t get it. I’m sure those of you who have been training a long time in your art still get those questions from some people “ You’re still doing that?” They can’t seem to comprehend what would keep us doing one art for so long. There is the old analogy of a person seeking water. You can dig a little hole here, another little hole over there, and another hundred others scattered all over the place. But, if you had just stayed in one place and DUG DEEP, you would have found what you were looking for.

Now I can see training in Aikido and Kendo. Or Taekwondo and Gumdo. I wouldn’t call it “cross-training”. But, to train in Aikido while training in Judo or training in Hapkido and mixing that with BJJ? Pick an art and stick with it, at least until Black Belt. Getting a Black Belt should mean that you know the “Basics” of that art. Prior to that, training in another art could only prove confusing, especially if they have different philosophies. Each of these arts has so much to offer. Why cheapen your training in an art by throwing in another art because you feel that somehow the art that you are currently training in is lacking in something? Wait. Be patient. I myself have witnessed people who have trained for a year or two express these ideas of training in another art. I ask them to do a front kick. They can’t even do a front kick properly! My advice to them: Learn every detail of your art. Don’t just “get by”. Get your Black Belt. If you still want to inspect another art, go ahead. If you truly think that your art is lacking prior to getting your Black Belt, then maybe you picked the wrong art! Or should I say, the wrong art for you.
Most people don’t do their due diligence when choosing an art. They see a Karate class and sign up. When I chose an art, I did my research. I looked at Taekwondo, Aikido, Kenpo, Hwarangdo, Kung Fu, Shotokan, and Hapkido. Hapkido, to me, seemed to have it all. I have been training and teaching for 12 years and feel like I’ve barely scratched the surface!

If you think of martial arts as a sport, then you will train in them as a sport. Mixing this with that and never getting a deep understanding of one art. If you want to be an ultimate fighter and it’s really just about beating people up or twisting them into a pretzl, that’s fine. That’s one path to take. But, there is no philosophy behind Ultimate Fighting. It’s “thugery”. Martial Arts training should not be about training killing machines. A true martial artist balances all of the yang of kicking, punching, etc… with the yin of breathing exercises, meditation, ki development, etc… If you only train the body and don’t give equal attention to the mind and spirit, then you are out of balance.

Bottom line: When I hear the words “Cross-training”. It makes me think of a Reebock commercial. I think they even coined the term!

[Midnight Mist]

"But, there is no philosophy behind Ultimate Fighting. It’s 'thugery'."

I strongly disagree with that opinion, but that is another topic, unrelated to this thread (and forum).

[Spikedude]

I understand to a certain extent what you mean, but trust me I dont think of it as sport. My Instructor uses three styles for a cirlce of balance. Tang Soo Do for striking, Hapkido for self defense, Muay thai for condtioning, and BJJ for the ground. Your right theres many who "dig small holes" too much and jump around schools. We mostly focus on TSD. But if u look back in time Samurai warriors used many styles, and so have the shaolin. I guess what im trying to say is that its not bad to train in all angles.

[wild_pitch]

BUT hapkido should be a complete system.

it has an integrated system of striking, groundfighting, joint locks, throw etc. why would you need to look to other places for these things.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

should be but I dont thin there is any one teacher who knows as much as a specialist. for example, if I go to a bjj black belt I know he is going to have extensive grappling knowledge, if i go to Puramuk gym I know I am going to get good stand up training. there is nothing wrong with cross training to focus on one area that your instructor may not be so great at.

[doshim]

I understand to a certain extent what you mean, but trust me I dont think of it as sport. My Instructor uses three styles for a cirlce of balance. Tang Soo Do for striking, Hapkido for self defense, Muay thai for condtioning, and BJJ for the ground. Your right theres many who "dig small holes" too much and jump around schools. We mostly focus on TSD. But if u look back in time Samurai warriors used many styles, and so have the shaolin. I guess what im trying to say is that its not bad to train in all angles.

The fact of the matter is that the average person that walks into a martial art studio nowadays is not a Samurai or Shaolin. They are usually a person who works a regular job, sitting in front of a computer screen for eight hours a day. They will probably be training 3-4 days a week. Can you really expect someone to learn an art the way it was learned back then? No. All I am saying to students out there is: 1.Choose a school 2. Immerse yourself in that art. 3. Earn your Black Belt.

[wild_pitch]

well i guess it just seems to me there are a lot of people out there teaching *hapkido* and only teaching very small parts of the whole art.


should be but I dont thin there is any one teacher who knows as much as a specialist. for example, if I go to a bjj black belt I know he is going to have extensive grappling knowledge, if i go to Puramuk gym I know I am going to get good stand up training. there is nothing wrong with cross training to focus on one area that your instructor may not be so great at.

[Covaliufan]

Doshim, it takes on average 10 years to get a black belt in bjj. Do you think someone should restrict themselves from learning some, say, boxing for these 10 years? Don't be ridiculous.

Different martial arts are, well, different. It's great to say something like "hapkido is a complete art" or "jujutsu is a complete are," and cross training is unnecessary, but the fact is bjj groundwork is better than what you'll find in hapkido, wrestlers can take people down and defend takedowns better than people who just train in hapkido, and boxers can punch better as well. So if you're a hapkido guy who is interested in improving groundwork, what earthly reason is there to not train some bjj as well?

It is your opinion that there's some sort of mystical/philosophical element to training in martial arts. It's the opinion of some other people (like me) that that's a bunch of hogwash. You can grow as a person through them, just as you can grow as a person through competitive athletics or spending years learning to sculpt; there's nothing intrinsic to martial arts about it. If the philosophical wisdom gained by training in hapkido for 12 years is represented by that faulty, inapplicable analogy about digging for water, I'll pass on it.

[American HKD]

Greetings

Two things here.

1. What to you want out of your training?
BJJ specializes in ground grappling, Hapkido has many good ground self defense techniques that will work for almost everyone and maybe all you ever need in real life, unless you find yourself wanting to enter the UFC etc.

Bjj is geared towards sport and competition and lacks many, many other aspect of MA, kicking, striking, weapons, presure points, healing, etc.
To me BJJ is not even in the same leauge as complete MA like Hapkido.

2. If it takes 10 years to get a BB in BJJ, the same amount of training in Hapkido would put you around a 3rd dan. I would rather be a 3rd dan in HKD who's way more well rounded a MA as stated above.

So maybe a blue belt in BJJ would be equal in training time 2,3,4 years to a HKD 1st dan and then you would be quite capable of more advanced ground grappling if you want to pursue more skills on the ground.


Look at the big picture v.s. just being a specialist of one thing.

[wild_pitch]

being a specialist in one area is all fine and good. but hapkido is an INTEGRATED system. it offers a complete system where all the techniques are all based on the same root concepts. all of it's techniques are all meant to work together.

[doshim]

Covaliufan,

Judging from the tone of that post, may I first apologize if I offended your sensibilities. I guess I have been very fortunate to study under someone who has devoted his entire life to one art. Just as the Gracies have devoted their life to one art. There is nothing “Mystical” about it. You cannot learn a martial art in a day. It takes an entire lifetime. I think exploring your options is great. That’s what your youth is for. Even my master trained in other arts as a youth until he chose Hapkido. Once he made that choice, he knew that it would be a lifetime pursuit of perfection. In my humble opinion, this is the way (for me) By no means am I knocking anyone’s path. We all have our own. I certainly am not one to say this art is better than that art or my way of training is the way. I am a firm believer in “Whatever works for you”.

[American HKD]

Covaliufan,

Judging from the tone of that post, may I first apologize if I offended your sensibilities. I guess I have been very fortunate to study under someone who has devoted his entire life to one art. Just as the Gracies have devoted their life to one art. There is nothing “Mystical” about it. You cannot learn a martial art in a day. It takes an entire lifetime. I think exploring your options is great. That’s what your youth is for. Even my master trained in other arts as a youth until he chose Hapkido. Once he made that choice, he knew that it would be a lifetime pursuit of perfection. In my humble opinion, this is the way (for me) By no means am I knocking anyone’s path. We all have our own. I certainly am not one to say this art is better than that art or my way of training is the way. I am a firm believer in “Whatever works for you”.

Well said

[Covaliufan]

Fair enough, Doshim.

American HKD, be careful about suggesting we look at the big picture. I was very, very careful in my last post to avoid playing the bjj is better than hapkido or vice versa card. But if you're going to go as far as to say that "bjj isn't even in the same league as a complete ma like hapkido"..., well, you'd do well to educate yourself a bit. Go rent Gracies in Action, where you can see some "complete" hapkidoists run into a bit of trouble against "sporting" bjj'ers.

Of course, being well rounded is something to strive for. But to me that means not settling for an amalgamation of techniques in each range that will work on an untrained person, but instead gaining considerable skill in stand up, clinch, and ground fighting. Like you said, it depends what you want out of it. Some people like to think of themselves as martial artists, with all the pseudo-artistic and philosophical crap those words imply, while others like me are happier just being combat athletes.

[ubermint]

Bjj is geared towards sport and competition and lacks many, many other aspect of MA, kicking, striking, weapons, presure points, healing, etc.
To me BJJ is not even in the same leauge as complete MA like Hapkido.


ut, there is no philosophy behind Ultimate Fighting. It’s “thugery”

You know what? I was all set to write a concise and restrained reply...Then I realized that you're just being internet masters #8697 and #1201, with nothing really new to say.

Basically, you're saying that practicing joint locks from BJJ makes you a member of the mad gear gang while practicing joint locks from hapkido makes you space jesus.

I'm sorry, it doesn't work that way. You teach fighting techniques. We teach fighting techniques.

The only difference between you and me appears to be that we accept our limitations. Sure, in BJJ you'll find things like Royce's clumsy stomp kicks to set up a takedown circa 1993. That no more means that BJJ "Has striking" than the elaborate gooseneck wrist locks you put on after throwing...excuse me, I mean "redirecting" your compliant partner means Hapkido "has" groundfighting...Unless you want to prove me wrong and show me an example of hapkido's groundfighting positional strategy that can be verified as not being borrowed from somewhere else.

So we crosstrain.

Oh, and we actually test ourselves in competition, while you spend years and years developing your Ki and just in general going through a big mental masturbational loop where you pretend to be "peaceful warriors" while conveinently forgetting that the "warrior" half of things includes, I dunno, ACTUALLY FIGHTING SOMEONE.

Which brings me to my final point. If hapkido really "has" ground techniques and training methods equal to those of bjj or "has", for instance, hand techniques as good as boxing, there's a simple and easy way to prove that assertion. Go to a BJJ or boxing gym and spar by their rules. If your training is really up to snuff in those areas, then you will be able to hang with a BJJ blue belt or an amatuer boxer with a few fights under his (or her) belt.

To the Hapkidoists who aren't patronizing jerkoffs, I apologize for the above. I'm not trying to start a BJJ-nutriding flame war, but the above two had to throw a banana peel in my cage and provoke the gorrilla into attacking.

How about, to provide a more positive alternative, sharing how your crosstraining in BJJ has changed how you train in Hapkido. Did you start integrating BJJ techniques into your Hapkido? Did you change your training to include more sparring? Did the physical conditioning help you any?

[wild_pitch]

Go rent Gracies in Action, where you can see some "complete" hapkidoists run into a bit of trouble against "sporting" bjj'ers.

so someone who says they study hapkido got beat in a ufc somewhere. i am sure that lots of people who study BJJ have been beaten as well. those competitions are more about personal training. not really about style per se.

But to me that means not settling for an amalgamation of techniques in each range that will work on an untrained person, but instead gaining considerable skill in stand up, clinch, and ground fighting.

I think you are confusing posts of a few different people. I never said that you should settle for techniques that work on untrained people. i think you need to be able to deal with any threat that develops.

[Covaliufan]

"Gracies and Action" isn't a UFC, it's the filming of a collection of responses to the "Gracie Challenge," a few of the challengers hapkido instructors who get owned. But my point wasn't that bjj was better than hapkido. I guess what I really mean to say is this:

You could go to your local video store tomorrow and watch, for yourself, bjj students fighting with reasonable success against athetlic, skilled, and motivated opponents who are hungry to win. I don't think the same can be said about hapkido, which should make certain more...enthusiastic...hapkido students consider toning down unfavorable comparisons of bjj to hapkido.

[wild_pitch]

oh they got owned did they.

are you 12 years old? again i'll say it. just becase someone who practices hapkido got beat in some video means very little.

[Covaliufan]

You're absolutely right. You're also still not quite getting my point. I'm not saying hapkido is bad, and I'm not even saying it's worse than bjj. What I am saying is that there is plenty of video evidence that you can go see for yourself showing bjj fighters, well, fighting, and winning. The same kind of evidence isn't available for hapkido. While this remains true, people who train in hapkido should refrain from comparing bjj unfavorably to hapkido.

Do you agree?

[Jumper53]

Royce Gracie said that one of his toughest fights ever was Garry Goodrich. Goodrich did cross train but also sported a black belt in HKD.

There is not much HKD in current UFC type competition because, no small joint manipulation, no groin hits, no pressure points, etc… kinda takes all the fun out of HKD.

I do not think you need to attend different schools and different instructors. Just expose yourself to different arts through video, and playing around with people of different styles. Your knowledge of HKD will greatly improve.

And I would say that BJJ is a very good art to look at. Every martial artist can benefit from knowing the basics of BJJ. No matter what style you practice, knowing the guard, mount, half guard, side control, head and arm, knee on stomach, north south, rear mount and rear guard, will help you survive if you ever get taken down. It is also very important to understand the mechanics of a wind/blood choke technique as well as neck cranks. Since in HKD you learn defense from these positions, your defense will be better if you learn how to attack using them too. Just like how learning to kick helps you learn to defend from kicks.

A note on the difference between a “sport art” and a “martial art” is that in a sport you see the people at the top of their game challenging opponents. In a martial art you see up and comers challenging opponents, but their teachers never do. Masters no longer compete. Whenever you see BJJ, Boxing, Tai, MMA, Shoot Fighters, etc. you see young conditioned career fighters considered to be the best in the world at their art. But when you see TKD, HKD, Karate, Kung Fu, etc. you see a 2nd or 3rd degree that spent most of their years training a few hours a week and are just recently career fighters. None of these guys are considered to be the best in the world at their art, not even close, they all have a Master teaching them who could whip their ass in a second.

A MMA friend of mine who does not compete, but has held his own sparring against several of the guys you see in UFC/Pride, was terrified just being in the same room as my HKD Grand Master.

[Jumper53]

Side note: I think that Rickson Gracie was at a Master level when he announced he would not fight again for less than a Million Dollar Purse. Partially evedenced by the fact that he could not find an opponent to challenge his ability at the time.

[Midnight Mist]

"Royce Gracie said that one of his toughest fights ever was Garry Goodrich. Goodrich did cross train but also sported a black belt in HKD."


Actually, it was Kuk Sool Won, and I've heard that Goodrich never earned that BB. He was awarded it by a KSW master for promotional purposes, supposedly.

[Thomas]

To the Hapkidoists who aren't patronizing jerkoffs, I apologize for the above. I'm not trying to start a BJJ-nutriding flame war, but the above two had to throw a banana peel in my cage and provoke the gorrilla into attacking.

How about, to provide a more positive alternative, sharing how your crosstraining in BJJ has changed how you train in Hapkido. Did you start integrating BJJ techniques into your Hapkido? Did you change your training to include more sparring? Did the physical conditioning help you any?

On my way to 2nd dan in Traditional Hapkido, I did some ground technqiues and a whole lot of other stuff. From a martial arts perspective, I felt fairly confident with those skills against most normal people.

In Combat Hapkido I have gone a bit further. Combat Hapkido "farms" out certain disciplines including our ground grappling program... initially directed by Pedro Rodrigues and now continued by Carlson Gracie. Within the framework of Combat Hapkido, the principles and concepts of BJJ fit very very nicely within the framework of Hapkido and can be integrated very well. From a more specific view, I now feel more confident with my ground abilities... both from the specific technqiues of BJJ but also from the [b]integration[b] of those skills. BJJ and Hapkdio mix well in my opinion... if that suits your goals as an individual

Disclaimer: Note that although Combat Hapkido shares the same basic concepts and underpinnings of Traditional Hapkido, it is not "sold" as being "true" Hapkido.

[wild_pitch]

I think that a huge problem when discussing these kinds if things, not only amongst ourselves but with people from other arts as well is every instructor and school that teaches *hapkido* teaches a bit of a different system placing emphasis on thier own particular view of what hapkido is.

some schools put a great deal of focus on the spiritual aspects of the art, mine by conscious choice does not and of course there are many that fall in the middle somewhere. at my school we feel that pressure testing your training is imperative and moving around / rolling with a resisting partner is one of the more important aspects of our training, other instructors feel that this takes away from the *combat* aspect of the art.

what thomas does is different in many ways to what i do, and again we are both different from what others on this board study or teach. it seems sometimes that we can not even decide amongst ourselves what our training is all about.

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

This is an interesting thread, for a couple of reasons.

One, I see a significant divide along age groups - (generally here - so humor me) - it seems many of the posts about BJJ are from younger folks - and I do understand this. The traititional martial arts crowd has not exactly wowed the younger generation much - with mega dans in 10 years and plain divisive politics. This does often leave an opportunity for other groups that are outside the mainstream to emerge - look at ninjutsu in the 80's - different andnon-traditional, youth flocked to it (just a comparison, not a similarity thing here, please).

I think that if you are happy with BJJ, all power to you, if you are happy cross training, cool again, but beware the generalizations that just because BJJ is governed by lots of sparring and rules, that we in Hapkido just train for "KI". I not going to pull to much rank here, but I have been training longer than several of you have been alive - this fall marks my 26th year in Hapkido. Now, during that time, I have had a chance to meet and see lots of other technical aspects of plenty of MA - and they all seem suited for the individuals that selected them. When it comes to Hapkido, I think that there are some misconceptions - most people in the world do not teach the art intact or even properly - period. There is lots of questionable stuff out there - the reigns have pretty much been let go and the horse has fled the barn as it were. So, I can see where cross training for some has made sense - because there were gaps to fill - I have been lucky enough to avoid much of these gaps (I think).

I do not spar, I never have. I have always been taught and concentrated on training against non-compliant opponents. But I understand that the concept of "sparring" may apply to this practice if someone sees it for the first time. There are no prearranged motions during this practice - the opponent attacks - and the defender defends. Obviously, we try to avoid breaking stuff or poking out eyes, etc. :) , but the practice is tough, never the less. I have also been unfortunate enough to choose work that always got me into confrontations (doorman, bartender,etc.) - so I had lots of time to test the stuff I knew. Now, as a side note, I never ended up on the ground - so never got to try that component.

So, I guess I am trying to say that if an art works well for you, stick with it and perfect it for you. If you still feel that cross training is needed, do it after a high level of technical ability is reached in a single art. I do think that to compare these two arts out of context is comparing apples and oranges - at least in some ways, all though I can conceed that neither art can be practiced "at full potential" becasue of the risk of injury to the training partner. That being said, I can respect the art in BJJ that sees its highest form of achievement in tournaments and contests, but I continue to train and teach so that, provedence willing, I will NEVER have to fight anyone again.

Good to see passion on both sides, I just hope that the "young guns" don't forget that we "old folks" are just them with a few more scars. :)

[iron_ox]

I think that a huge problem when discussing these kinds if things, not only amongst ourselves but with people from other arts as well is every instructor and school that teaches *hapkido* teaches a bit of a different system placing emphasis on thier own particular view of what hapkido is.

some schools put a great deal of focus on the spiritual aspects of the art, mine by conscious choice does not and of course there are many that fall in the middle somewhere. at my school we feel that pressure testing your training is imperative and moving around / rolling with a resisting partner is one of the more important aspects of our training, other instructors feel that this takes away from the *combat* aspect of the art.

what thomas does is different in many ways to what i do, and again we are both different from what others on this board study or teach. it seems sometimes that we can not even decide amongst ourselves what our training is all about.

Good post, I agree.