Toshi Dojo, Louisville, KY?

[KY23]

I'm considering taking Judo for fitness and motivational reasons. I live in Louisville, KY and Toshi Dojo is a school in my area. Anyone heard good or bad things about this school?

Any better schools around?

Thanks,

[pesilat]

Originally posted by KY23
I'm considering taking Judo for fitness and motivational reasons. I live in Louisville, KY and Toshi Dojo is a school in my area. Anyone heard good or bad things about this school?

Any better schools around?

Thanks,

Don't know anything about Toshi Dojo. Or other Judo schools, for that matter. But I'm teaching in Louisville (primarily Filipino and Indonesian arts). If you're interested, check out my website at http://impactacademy.com

Mike

[poosplash]

I have been training at both of the Toshi Dojo clubs for 6 years and have learned many things. This isn't your typical martial arts club. They don't mess with you, and will get you into great shape, as well as teaching you how to fight. This clubs members have received many awards such as state championships, national chamionships and a 2nd place on the international level. There are also many different types of fighters that come. There are members from Cuba and Germany who have different styles. There is also a member from Indiana who is currently a pro boxer and has a national title in kickboxing, and is scheduled to fight one of the Klitschko brothers (renowned boxers) this coming year. If you are looking to get in shape, and learn how to become a skilled fighter, this is the place for you.

[wintertwister]

Excellent place for martial arts. Run by some Louisville policemen, it has a Judo club and an Aikido club with some Jujitsu classes. I go to the Aikido club. Judo has kids classes separate from adult classes (thank God). Both are run with almost no profit--both clubs are dedicated to their practice. If you want to get more aerobics choose the judo class on Monday and Thursday nights at 7:30.
Hwangs martial arts has judo but it is used with their Hapkido. It is very expensive compared to Toshi Dojo and they emphasize Tae Kwon Do first. I think there is a judo club with a Jewish community center but I have not checked it out.

[gi4me]

I studied for only 8 months at Toshi and quit (temporarily) for an elbow injury. I just never got back because I moved to Indiana. At that time, Michael Royce(?) was the active head instructor, and John was the assistant. Both are exceptional people.

I went back there this past summer to see about joining but the dojo was now in a confined, run down area, and the costs had gone from $20 to more than twice that. They have recently posted on there website that they are merging with "Core" of Louisville, and the costs can go to as much as $115/month, which is more than I care to spend on a membership, but that may not be an issue for others.

Even though John is a great guy, and instructor, and the majority of students I worked with were fine, there was one who was overly rough. That person is now one of the instructors (and he's no Michael). That coupled with the high $ fees, and lack of schedule options rules out Toshi for me. I think the biggest hit the school took was when Michael moved away. Good luck.

[evilsquirrel]

Not sure where this last guy is coming from... I've trained at Toshi now since 2002 and it's a great club. The instructors there teach because they love Judo, in fact even the instructors pay dues (less than regular members of course) because it is more of a club instead of a business. With that said, I know the instructors have paid money out of their personal pockets many times to pay utilities, etc... and the club operates at little profit or even a loss at times, so the guy above whining about $50 a month is funny.

I'd like to also address his statement about the club being in a run down area... last time I checked Jeffersontown, KY is in the east end and I have never heard it referred to as a run down area, though the club has just recently merged with CORE of Louisville and is now located off Nelson Miller Parkway.

CORE is one of, if not THE best Martial arts schools in KY. The owner there has found the best instructors around in their respective art. They have trained many national level fighters, they offer Boxing, Krav, Judo, Ju Jitsu, etc...

In my 5+ years at Toshi I have never known anyone at Toshi "geting rough" with anyone, it's just the opposite, our instructors will NOT tolerate anyone "getting rough" or trying to deliberately hurt anyone. It is a martial art and accidents do happen, but it's just that, an accident. Everyone there uses common sense and most students know who they can train hard with and ones they can't.

Toshi trains in sport Judo and many of it's members are professional people (doctors, business owners, etc) and we do not allow "thugs" in our class. Judo is very challenging and it's an excellent way to get in shape and have fun doing it. If you're considerig Judo we'd love to have you come out and watch a class... I think you'll be impressed.

[gi4me]

Speaking (respectfully) to my previous comments about the Toshi dojo area being "run down" , I was referring to the Dojo itself. I actually worked out with the Aikido instructor and was amazed at the lack of cleanliness of the mat and surrounding floor "compared to the previous, spacious, clean environment at the old YMCA building downtown". That's a fair statement, and in fact it was one of the dirtiest dojos I'd ever seen at that point. I guess the $115 monthly dues at Core will help pay the janitor.

As I said before, the majority of students were very nice and the advanced belts were especially helpful, except the fella I mentioned before. In fact, after this "policeman" used a sacrificial throw, nearly breaking my ribs (even though I was a new student) a fellow black belt took me aside and explained how uncalled for his behavior was. He indicated this was normal for him to disuade new students. The gentalman who helped me no longer goes there either. I'm six feet, 193 pounds, solid and very athletic. My impression, and the view of the person who helped me to my feet, was that this guy just wanted to practice his technique. And, unfortunately, other people outside the school have conveyed they've heard that a lot of people get cycled thru there so the advanced ranks can use them as "throwing dummies". Also, go to the website and review the black belts pictured. They're almost all policemen. Why don't most the other students gain that status? Probably because they realize their instruction is being rationed while the seniors polish for the next tournament. If that isn't the case - where is the drove of black belts from the last 15 years of this school's history?????

Michael was a self-defense instructor for the police department. I think it's great that so many policemen are so well trained. But just having one bad apple is enough to sour my opinion of this club. Good training, great head instructor -John W., and some really nice judoka. Just watch your bones - you need them to train and advance thru Judo properly.

[evilsquirrel]

I had never trained at the YMCA with Toshi so I can't make a comparison. I do know the now old place was clean, the matt was cleaned with a bleach solution after class. Speaking of matt, we had one of the best around, a very expensive and high quality tatami on a floating support. We have built this same floating matt at CORE. At the YMCA the club had some foam matts on a concrete floor, so the matt we have now is far superior.

I'm glad you liked the majority of the students and yes, they are nice because we don't tolerate disrespectful behaviour at our club. Implying that our instructors use new people as throwing dummies is, well, just a bold faced slanderous lie. I have NEVER seen that kind of behaviour out of any of our instructors or I would have found another club a long time ago.

Only one of our 5 instructors is a police office. We have approximately 8 - 10 regularly attending black belts and only 2 -3 are police officers. There are 4 brown belts (I'm one of them) and none of us are police officers so your implication that we're a club full of police that like to "beat up" on people is way off.

I compare Judo with football, college wrestling, etc.. It's a contact sport and because of that injuries will happen. If you're obsessed with cleanliness and afraid of getting hurt, let me recommend Beaty's Yoga on Shelbyville Road, it's right next to a Starbucks so you can get a capaccino when you're done.

[gi4me]

I think one thing is evident here; You and I are speaking about a dojo and its practices at two different periods of time. And, as I said before, the "throwing dummies" comment came from another person, and it was his opinion. My opinion came from actual practice there, apparently before your tenure. You're obviously pro-Toshi, and to a large extent I am. I just happen to think it lacks in a couple important areas. My opinion, plain and simple- but thanks for calling me a "bold faced slanerous liar". I know you couldn't have learned your manners at Toshi.

Afraid of getting hurt? Most people are if they have any sense. Some parts of the body get hurt once and you live with that limitation the rest of your life. The idea of training in martial arts in general is to learn self defense, with the understanding that superficial wounds are just a right of passage. Afraid of training? Not at all.

I don't think I would like yoga class, although I understand Rickson Gracie does. You think yoga is for sissies? Write Mr. Gracie and tell him that. Maybe you just gave insight to everyone about what "you've" learned at your dojo. So much for your "respectful behaviour" comment below -oops, what am I saying? You said "we don't tolerate disrespectful behaviour at our club". Well my complaint was about the dojo in "those days". But your attitude shows what your "behaviour outside the club" might be. It's OK to difffer on opinions, but you could at least do Judo the service of not dragging its principals thru the mud for the sake of your business. Also, I never said the instructors use anyone for anything. I said a person who is now an instructor took advantage of a new student.

I do like a clean dojo, but am not obsessed with cleanliness. As a consumer I do like to see improvements in service as the price gets repeatedly hiked up.
On the floor that I worked out on in "J-Town" you're right on - it's very soft and comfortable. Personally, "soft and comfortable" aren't the first thing I look for in a mat. Space - yes! You gotta have enough space to practice safely. When I trained under Michael, we were taught to pull back up on the Gi as the opponent hit the mat, to lessen his impact. (We were also taught how to fall) That makes sense when the primary objective is to learn to properly position for , and execute the throw with technic, and not brute force. In an altercation, helping the other guy find a cushy landing wouldn't be a consideration, but Randori is not an altercation. Therefore, "cushy landing pad" not needed for us "sissies".

"Flip On", my friend. I wish you and Toshi the best.

[kyjiujitsu]

I am new to this site, so I apologize for not having a "Bio" available on myself yet, But after finding these comments about certain Studios in Louisville, Kentucky I felt compelled to post.

There are two studios (I will use the term "studios" because these are far from "Dojos")
that brag about catering to police officers in the area that I have personal experience with from knowing the owners (again, I refrain from using the title "Sensei")

On more than one occasion I have been out with the owners and students of these schools.

The first night I hung out with "black belts" from the "T" judo school previously mentioned. One particular instructor who is a Louisville Metro Police officer who's been on the force for many years spent the entire occasion bragging about the original owner of "T" judo school, also a police officer (retired in Florida now) basically beating up and abusing people while on duty as a policeman, then he told stories of himself pulling people out of cars, throwing them,etc., after listening long enough it was obviously police abuse not cases of using martial arts justifiably. It was absolutely sick to listen to. The person telling these stories was "TF" who during our workout I was able to get in a ridiculous chicken wing hold that he could not get out of, I was embarassed since I would never mean to insult a host instructor like that. On more than one occasion he or other police seem to show up in their official police uniforms to watch class. It seems that they all have some sort of serious fantasy "macho" ego's and they feed off of each others approval. Their martial arts are lame at best.

The same holds true of the other studio mentioned in another guys post "LMAA" is owned by a guy that when out of the dojo is prone to brag about his police antics of beating up defenseless guys in alleys,etc. All you have to do is hang out with these guys after class one night and they either forget you're there or they think their impressing you with there stories of abuse. They don't have so many cops due to their great programs, it seems that most of the cops in these two places have such egos that they don't seem threatened to learn from a cop instructor because they're all "brothers" and equal so they are not belittled by a civilian instructor.

The "LMAA" studio mentioned brags about the cops who train there and the fact that they teach Gracie jiu-jitsu, however they won't tell you that their training has consisted of "seminars" and correspondent training under an affiliate of the Gracie's.

I have seen instructors at both of these places get personal when students seem to be getting the best of them which is not hard to do if you see these guys.

Not to mention the business practices of the "LMAA" group. Their mentor seems to come in town every couple of months and the students are charged hundred of dollars to attend special seminars on top of their regular tuition. Also, they recently had a special "self defense" seminar and charged students to attend!

IF you join a school but they brag about someone else or have someone else come into town that you have to pay to learn from, I personally believe this is an admission of NOT BEING QUALIFIED. There's no reason a seriously able qualified instructor needs his students to pay someone else to learn. IF this is the case perhaps the instructor "AM"
should not be teaching.

The latest fad in the area has been for inept or low quality instructors to open a facility, in some cases the facility itself is very nice, but the unqualified instructors open a place then begin subleasing to Yoga, Belly dancing, Muay Thai, Jiu-Jitsu, or Whatever...just to say they have "something for everyone"
They only have something for everyone because they have subleased to the first taker, not because they have the best instructors.

Many of these types of schools are run in such a way that the actual owners do not even teach, they instead have other black belts or in the case of "LMAA" blue belts, purple or brown, actually teaching the classes.

I am sorry but these programs and others like them are sad. The only good comments come from members of their police community and other members who try to recruit by word of mouth. The police guys like to be around other police guys that they can trust, so they hang where they all support each other (understandable)

But if you ever get a chance to hang out with these guys and they forget you're there or drop their guard you will hear them brag about abuses that range from running over people in their police cars to beating people up!

It is just absolutely disgusting. Any form of martial arts demeanor is simply an act.

There are plenty of good schools around. Please don't be fooled by these guys.

Also, it should be mentioned that on atleast one occasion of police brutality that was televised and made the headlines due to the "bad" guy being killed...atleast one officer involved was from one of these schools, though never revealed in the news. Other officers have files for abuse on file at internal affairs from the "LMAA" school.

These are not quality people to be around, unless you just like to go out drinking and listen to tough guy stories from guys who are fairly wimpy out of their police uniforms when someone is likely to hit them back.

[kyjiujitsu]

Sorry I kinda went off so I hope my comments made sense.
I can't stress enough that I personally know these guys and have experience watching them teach and watching them out of class.

There are much better schools and more importantly INSTRUCTORS around

It is pointless to ask these guys or their students for advice on other places because they will either deny knowing the other school exist or they will demean the instructor.

Good luck in your search for a decent school!

[pesilat]

As an instructor at "LMAA" I would like to make some observations.

First, I'm not a GJJ guy and have only been teaching at LMAA for 4 years (I teach Filipino and Indonesian martial arts there). I can't say from firsthand experience how much time the GJJ instructors spent training where. We have 4 guys teaching at the school who were promoted directly by Pedro Sauer. All 4 had been training for 10+ years in GJJ when they were awarded their black belts. At least 2 of them have traveled to Brazil and trained there. At least one of the instructors has trained with Rickson Gracie at his academy in CA.

One of the owners (and GJJ black belts), Allan, is a Louisville Metro officer. Several of the other guys who train there are also LMPD. I'm pretty tight with Allan and have known him for 4 years. If Allan is one of the people you (kyjiujitsu) are referring to then it seems pretty obvious you don't actually know him. He's one of the most straight forward people I've ever met. He trains hard and is very good at what he does. He's also an excellent instructor.

For my part, I was first introduced to LMAA about 4 years ago. Scott - now one of those 4 GJJ black belts under Pedro Sauer - came to start training with me in Sikal. At the time I was teaching in my garage. Scott trained with me for a few months then made me a proposition. He said, "We're trying to diversify and get some other systems going at the school. I think you'd be a good match." I met Allan for lunch a few days later and talked to him. I was impressed with his bearing, attitude and enthusiasm for his training and his school. I then met with the other owners/instructors at the school and continued to be impressed by the overall attitude of these guys.

We now have several instructors teaching a variety of martial arts - Sikal, Wing Tzun, Muay Thai, Tai Chi and, of course, the Shaolin Kempo Karate and GJJ that were already being taught when I started teaching there. All these instructors teach and many cross train with each other and there hasn't been any friction among us in the 4 years I've been there. That would be impossible if there were a bunch of overinflated egos bumping into each other all the time.

I don't know what kind of experience kyjiujitsu had at LMAA or who he had it with but his statements don't jibe with what I've seen over the past 4 years.

But don't take my word - or anyone else's word - for it. Come in and check us out firsthand and make your own judgment.

Mike

[evilsquirrel]

What is with these guys hiding behind the internet and making up these silly accusations? These are obviously lunch money victims that don't have the balls to even put their name in their profile.

I'm not sure we are even talking about the same "T" school as you call it or the same person "TF" as you call him. Furthermore, I've never heard anyone say anything negative about Allan or his school (except you).

Your long winded ludicrous rant doesn't even deserve a response because I personally know TF and I have been a member of Toshi for 6 years, and none of what you said is true.

I have already said my peace about Toshi in this thread above, it's a fine school with many professional people, and Tony is one of the finest people I know. I could never see him or anyone else attending Toshi that would beat people up for fun... that's, well, just stupid.

Regards, Kevin Nalley

[kyjiujitsu]

This must be the part where everyone from a school gives their die hard testamonials, in an attempt to discredit any post that puts their school or instructor in a bad light.

First of all no disrespect to anyone on here, just provided personal input from experience.

I find it interesting someone used the name "Tony" and acknowledged what a great guy he is, when I only provided initials, even now I will not confirm a name.

Generally these type of post are put up by two types of people; those who have something against who they're trashing and those who have some kind of relationship with whoever they are recommending or defending.

I apologize to Sikal guy from LMAA as I don't know him and did not intend to suggest anyone was guilty by association.

When it's been mentioned of GJJ guys training with Rickson or going to Brasil, it is my understanding that this is still "seminars" or very brief encounters at best, not the same as someone who's really been training with, and not just showing up to be able to use their names in an ad

My reason for bringing this up is that I believe this definately makes a difference to anyone looking for a good school. period.

I was at a Christmas party with one of these places where a guy that's now a "black belt" instructor got drunk and hurt a student by twisting his arm to take a PLASTIC utensil away! And that guy is an attorney! I quit attending after seeing that spectacle on top of hearing some of the police officers stories, on top of hearing the instructor brag about certain conquest of married women.

I saw a few moves while there but I felt that the atmosphere at least behind the scenes was not what I expected for a martial arts place. I started driving an hour away to train in Cincinnati with a much more professional and legitimate group. Legitimate meaning that our instructor lived, and trained jiu-jitsu daily until earning his black belt and eventually years later starting this school. There is just no comparison. We do have police officers here as well, but they are a different bunch of guys that I am not offended or embarassed to call my buddies.

NOW
Do you want a Doctor (plastic surgeon in this example) who paid his dues by going to school making the grades and graduated from Medical school? OR would you prefer to go to the cheapest Doctor around that claims to do all sorts of special operations or procedures to make you look better, but He actually only learned from watching videos or taking correspondence training or only visited the Medical school sparingly for a week or two at a time and then had a certificate awarded after paying thousands of dollars to be associated with the school?

That's kinda what's going on at some of these schools, and I think the general public has a right to know. Of course the guys who have been going to these schools and the instructors there don't want you to know.

I have to agree with Sikal guy about all of this, but If you visit you will definately see a different side of these types than you will see once they think they can trust you or that you're one of them. Then and only then will you see and hear some of the things I mentioned, probably never in the studio, as this is where they have their guard up.

Any post describing how wonderful anyone is that you think that I was talking about is pointless as I know these people, and have seen and heard them personally.
These types are not stupid, inside thier studios they are quite cordial and pleasant.

Find out a few things before committing to a school such as:

How long have they been using the same name?
Some schools change their names repeatedly to catch on to the latest fads

What are the credentials of the actual instructors?
If they claim to compete or cage fight, who teaches these classes and what is their experience competing themselves? -you don't want someone teaching something they have never done themselves, when their may be someone around with a lot more experience.

Does the actual instructor or black belt teach classes or are you seeing lower belts teaching?

How many years experience does the teacher have?
How long has the teacher been a black belt?

Does the instructor have a number for you to call and verify who they trained with and how long and if it was actually in person or by correspondence?

Most importantly about the Jiu Jitsu groups is this:
Has the instructor Always trained in GJJ for as long as the school has existed?
meaning if the school is 20yrs old, some of these guys will lead you to think they've been doing GJJ that long when maybe they haven't.

Is the school associated with anyone that comes into town and does seminars or "helps" them with their advancements or techniques? -If so, RUN! these are the type of guys you want to stay away from! A legitimately trained, skilled instructor (like where I go now) does not need to be a member of any group that makes his students have to pay money to learn from someone else! period! The only reason for this is that the Instructor is not skilled enough to teach his own students.
Although at some schools (no names mentioned) they try to cover for this by claiming they bring in the best instructors "from all over", blah blah!
That bit of information was from my instructor, and it really made me feel stupid after he told me this, because I had trained at the other place (no names mentioned) for quite a while. Also, the place in question makes you sign a contract where if you quit you keep paying! I had to pay six more months after I quit, because I refused to return.
I have since learned that I could take these guys to court for fraud or at the very least to get my contract cancelled because they were not 100% honest in their experience with the GJJ that I wanted to learn! These guys know this stuff, so if you want out of a contract and you mention their mis-guidings I would bet you get out of the contract.

If you have trouble getting acceptable answers to these questions you may want to go somewhere else.

Remember: Anyone going to a particular place is going to tell you how much they love it (THEY GO THERE) so testamonials from people attending is useless.
You have to do your research
There are plenty of good schools in the area I would suggest Core, the judo guy there previously mentioned is a good guy. For jiu-jitsu I would suggest looking up where I go in cincinnatti, but for conflicts of interest issues I won't mention the name here.
Fact is there is not ONE Gracie Jiu jitsu instructor (that I know of) that has learned the art the way you would want your instructor to have learned before they teach you!
Most of the local guys that I personally know have learned from correspondence such as Pedro Sauer, or some other guru that travels the country getting rich off of these guys. After the locak guys get a little rank (or even before) you can find these local correspondence trained Gracie jiu jitsu instructors out doing the same thing locally! They , go train some local karate or other stylist "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu", and the next day that local instructor will advertise that they now offer GJJ!!!!
The absolute best instructors do it the old fashioned way, they Get their black belts first!

ALSO, you can go directly to the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu website and see who is registered by the Gracies to teach their art, just because someone is certified under someone under the Gracies does not mean they are certified by the Gracies (CHECK THAT OUT!)

If you have read this far, you can imagine why all these local guys hate me! I have tried not to mention names, just insight and a little education about what is going on out there in our world of judo and Gjj!

Hopefully you will be intelligent enough to ignore all of the hate mail or the love fest from supporters of these "type" of places.

Please do your research, Like Sikal guy said (and he is 100% right) you have to visit don't take anyones word on here, as it appears everyone has their own agenda for posting.

I was serioiusly trying to avoid names, but in some cases I felt it necessary to prove that I know and have experience with some of those mentioned, no disrespect to any legit student or instructor on this site was intended.

So, If you can't make it to Cincinnati I would suggest starting your research right away!

[pesilat]

Interesting post, kyjiujitsu.

I'd like to point something out. Take a step back from your perspective and look at this from the viewpoint of most of the people reading this thread.

You joined the forum and your first 3 posts (and, in fact, only posts to date) are aimed purely at badmouthing schools and instructors - posting things that might even be considered libelous (though I'm no attorney so can't say for sure).

You have posted absolutely no personal information about yourself - not even a hint of how much background you have in anything or how much time you claim to have spent around these people you're badmouthing. You're trying to be vague in a pretense at politeness (I assume).

Do realize how pathetic this makes you look to everyone reading this?

No one here knows who you are. Not even virtually, much less personally. For all anyone knows you are just spreading gossip you've heard. Or you have your own personal agenda based on some grievance (real or imagined) against these people.

Why should anyone here take you seriously?

I was serioiusly trying to avoid names, but in some cases I felt it necessary to prove that I know and have experience with some of those mentioned, no disrespect to any legit student or instructor on this site was intended.

Are you serious with this? How does using names prove you know any of the people? I can spout names like Helio Gracie and Rickson Gracie and Tom Cruise all day long - doesn't mean I've ever met them. I can even relate stories I've heard secondhand about them but it doesn't prove that I know any of them or have even met any of them.


Of course, much of this could apply to evilsquirrel as well but at least he posted a link to Toshi Dojo in his profile so it can be assumed that he trains there. Everyone knows where he's coming from. Also he signed at least one of his posts with the name "Kevin Nalley." I would be willing to bet that if I call Toshi or go over there that I will find a guy named Kevin Nalley who would own up to the posts. Does he have his own agenda? Sure. To defend his school/instructors against potentially libelous posts out here :)

Same goes for me - though I'm about as far from anonymous as a martial arts instructor can be these days. I'm ridiculously easy to find online and in person. But I have an agenda here to defend some people I know against those same potentially libelous posts.

Are there things I don't know about the instructors at LMAA? Guaranteed. Is it likely that you know things I don't? Not really.

Also, if you have problems with the certifications that Pedro Sauer gives out then I'd suggest you take it up with him :D

Are they seminar trained? I don't know. I wasn't there. What I do know is this: they train hard and roll frequently. They are good at what they do and good instructors.

If you attend a seminar and take careful notes and get critique by the instructor then you take that material home and practice it regularly and carefully for several months then go to another seminar with that instructor and he critiques you and you go make those corrections and you repeat this until he promotes you - how is this any different than going to class and training and rolling with the material?

The only difference is in the time between critiques. Does this create some pretty significant pitfalls in training? Sure. You're much more likely to ingrain a bad habit then spend time fixing that bad habit. Will it take longer to reach a particular place? Sure. But so what? It's not a race. If you train with someone 10 hours / week for 8 years and earn a black belt and someone else does the seminar approach (still putting in 10 hours / week at home) and it takes 10 years for them to earn black belt is there really a difference in quality? No. It just took longer because of the circumstances.

I share some of your gripes about some seminar trained people. People who have been to a handful of seminars and done little (if any) work on the material outside of seminars. These people are pretty much spinning their wheels and won't progress very far no matter how long they keep at it. But people who work the material and are careful to stick to what they were taught - whether the instructor is there supervising or not - can do it. It's a more difficult road that takes a lot more self motivation but I don't see it as inferior - when it's properly done.

In my estimation the guys at LMAA - assuming they are seminar trained - have done it right.

As far as instructors sleeping with married students - there's a really tricky topic. First, all we have is your word - and as I pointed out at the beginning, that isn't likely to carry much weight here.

To my knowledge it has never happened with any of the instructors at LMAA (at least in the 4 years I've been involved with them). Could I be unaware of it? Sure - but if they brag like you claim then I would have heard about it so it's pretty unlikely.

I've never heard any of the instructors at LMAA brag. We all occasionally use our experiences - both positive and negative - as teaching tools by telling a story to make a point about what we're teaching. That's not bragging. Outside of the that the only stories I've heard have been of the "my day at the office" variety - it just so happens that a cop's "day at the office" can be pretty violent - but there's been no braggadocio involved in the telling. It's a matter-of-fact recounting of something that happened and, again, it's usually tangential to a larger discussion we're involved in.

Mike

[kyjiujitsu]

Pesilat You are an employee or instructor at LMAA, correct?
And you are attempting to dis-credit my comments, right?

Go figure.

Of course whenever someone wants to stop negative remarks they
threaten a liable suit, right? From what I know LMAA has threatened several Liable actions against people making statements against them in public forums, such as YouTube when a rival instructor posted a video challenge to the LMAA instructor.

Knowing how these guys operate I can fully expect a ton of you LMAA guys to get on here to discredit any negative comments and have a love fest about LMAA and its wonderful people and instructors.

Not to mention the Liable law suit I could be threatened with to shut me up if given the opportunity.

LMAA = what a class act.

I still suggest letting people visit and have a look see.

I have no "agenda" other than the truth.

It appears that your agenda is that of defender of honor.
I don't mean to insult your honor but if you are attempting to discredit my comments and defend your owner's honor -Good luck.

[pesilat]

Pesilat You are an employee or instructor at LMAA, correct?
And you are attempting to dis-credit my comments, right?

Go figure.

Of course whenever someone wants to stop negative remarks they
threaten a liable suit, right? From what I know LMAA has threatened several Liable actions against people making statements against them in public forums, such as YouTube when a rival instructor posted a video challenge to the LMAA instructor.

Knowing how these guys operate I can fully expect a ton of you LMAA guys to get on here to discredit any negative comments and have a love fest about LMAA and its wonderful people and instructors.

Not to mention the Liable law suit I could be threatened with to shut me up if given the opportunity.

LMAA = what a class act.

I still suggest letting people visit and have a look see.

I have no "agenda" other than the truth.

It appears that your agenda is that of defender of honor.
I don't mean to insult your honor but if you are attempting to discredit my comments and defend your owner's honor -Good luck.


Wow. I guess you told me :rolleyes:

I see you filled out your profile with some information - at least that's something.


"Truth" is an interesting thing. There is "absolute truth" which no one can really ever know because we all have unconscious filters on our perception. Then there's "perceived truth" which will vary - to one degree or another - from person to person.

I wasn't trying to "dis-credit" your comments at all. I simply pointed out that, really, they didn't carry much weight to being with - but you perceive it however you want.

I wasn't defending anyone's honor. You gave your perceived truth and I gave mine. Then I pointed out that if you wanted to be taken at all seriously in a discussion like this then you should not be so anonymous. You filled out your profile - still pretty anonymous but it's a step in the right direction. Are you ever going to post anything on MAP that's not badmouthing others? Just curious.

I don't mean to insult your honor but if you are attempting to discredit my comments and defend your owner's honor
Oh, and I don't have an "owner." LMAA has a few co-owners, actually. I just teach my classes there. And don't worry about insulting my honor. The only person in the world who can have any effect whatsoever on my honor is me.

I didn't threaten libel. I'm not an attorney so I don't even know if your comments actually constitute libel. But we are all liable - even if only to our own conscience - for what we write out here.

I don't know if other people from LMAA will get on here or not. As far as I'm concerned it's done. You've said your piece and I've said mine. Anything more will just be a rehashing of the same stuff. No point in that - if people want to simulate that effect they can just reread this series of posts to their heart's content.

I'm sure you'll count this as some sort of victory. More power to you. When you tell people how you wrote circles around me make sure you show them this series of posts so they can get everything in context; I wouldn't want anyone thinking you took unfair advantage of me.

Take care and have fun with your perception of the truth.

Mike

[kyjiujitsu]

Pesilat, my original post was in reference to posts about a local school, continued comments are the result of replying to posts challenging my credability and motives.

Latter posts suggest that Im just some idiot on a mission to bad mouth someone. This would be pointless, and childish. (I expect this will be copied as a quote, LoL!)

I simply voiced my comments as I know them to be truthful, but with that said I also know that most of what I said could not be proved in a "he said, she said" arena.
AND you have no reason to believe me.

I respectfully accept your comments and agree with a lot of what you've said.
You of course, don't know me and have no reason to believe me -we agree on that.

I can only tell you that as a serious martial artist and a decent person, I would not waste my time on here to post a negative post just to be mean or hateful. I don't have any special vandetta or battle against these people, or YOU.

Of course we've had a spirited exchange but only because you have felt that you've had to say your part and I have felt the need to reply.

As someone not knowing me or my intentions, I fully respect your replys,
I've never had an intention of trying to "win" an argument with you or anyone else on here, and I don't need or wish to claim any sort of "victory".

I simply have to reply to any suggestion that my comments were anything but genuine.
as I expect you would.

The fact that people say what they need to about their experiences is fine with me and I can read the post without comment, but I can't ignore questions about my integrity or motives.

That's all, Perhaps one day you will realize my comments were not just made up to attack someone personally, maybe somenone else will confide in you about their experience, perhaps we will meet one day.

Of course there will be idiots out there that do lie and make up hateful stuff that's not true, as there will be exaggerated positive comments from supporters.

Once again, it all boils down to people doing research and finding out for themselves.

In the words of Monty Python and the Holy Grail "I suggest that we call this a draw"
-peace

[pesilat]

OK, kyj - hope you don't mind the nickname :)

That response impressed me a bit. You do seem considerably more mature than I first pegged you. Cool.

I'm a big believer in firsthand experience and, as I previously said, nothing in my firsthand experience jibes with things you've said about braggadocio and affairs with students so I can't buy into it.

I'm sorry you feel so aggrieved toward friends of mine but you're welcome to your own opinion and I respect that.

You do see, though, the point I was trying to make about the way you appear here on MAP? The only posts you have made have revolved around negativity toward other people (either directly in the post or in the responses generated). Seriously, that makes you look like a someone with a petty grudge trying to run a smear campaign of some sort.

Your most recent post leads me to believe that isn't entirely the case - but you do understand why people would have that perception, right?

Mike

[kyjiujitsu]

Pesilat, I am not "aggrieved" towards anyone. I felt compelled to reply to posts about people or schools that I have intimate knowledge about, that does not necessarily mean you or anyone else on here have had the same experience.

You have had your experience with your friends and I have had my experience with them. We could both be right.

Knowing who you are, I can say that in all of my experience with these guys You were never around or involved, so how would you know if it happened or not?

You are basing your belief on what you say you've witnessed and if you've never witnesses "knucklehead" behavior...why should you believe me?

I will be hanging around because this is a cool site, but I am not here with an agenda against your friends.