Flashy kicks in HKD

[Midnight Mist]

I watched the 2003 Jin Jung Kwan Hapkido Championship today.

The demos involved plenty of high, spinning, and jumping kicks...things I would expect to see in TKD. Even the sparring matches were almost all fancy kicks, with an occasional throw here and there. I think I saw maybe two punches.

How representative is this of the art of HKD? I was under the impression that HKD consisted mostly of locks and throws, with practical kicks and punches.

[NaughtyKnight]

I hope this doesnt turn into a TKD bashing thread. :)

[Midnight Mist]

It's not meant to be.

[NaughtyKnight]

Lol, dont worry man, Im just having a laugh. :D

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Tradtional Hapkido as taught by its founder Choi, Yong Sul has only 10 kicks. Many of the additions were made by Ji, Han Jae and Kim, Moo Woong during the early 1960's probably because Ji and Kim were teaching in Seoul and had to contend with everyone learning Taekwondo with its arsenal of kicks - so to stay "in the game" as it were, they added LOTS more kicks to appeal to the younger set in Seoul.

These two were in their early twenties and probably felt they could do more kicking anyway than the much older Choi who was by then in his 50's.

[traz]

The Hapkido that I'm learning, we do learn the high kicks, but we never ever use them in sparring or anything else. It seems that they are more of a demonstration of athletic and technical ability, but they are in no way a big part of our curriculum.

Chances are that the demo included them heavily because they wanted to impress people. From what I do, it isn't an accurate gauge of the effective techniques we learn.

[American HKD]

Greetings,

The HKD kicks are not from the same source as TKD, in fact TKD copied many of the Hapkido kicks which sources were Choi Yong Sool and Tae Kyon through Ji Han Jae.

But in keeping with your question, Ji's additional kicks were never intended for the "flash value" but for using them against more than one opponent in very effective and usable way.

[bvermillion]

You have to always remember to take most demos as a grain of salt. At demos they are more inclined to do what looks good, because that is what people want to see. Hapkido is a nasty art. It is not that pretty. Thats is until you understand the moves. Just like bjj to the untrained person it looks like to people rolling around. But to a bjj student a well performed technique is beautiful.

[NaughtyKnight]

I love my high kicks. Everyone I spar (mostly kickboxers) always laugh when they see me warming up. Thats until I hit them with one.

High kicks are good because they make your lower kicks stronger, plus you hit someone with a high kick and its lights out.

[oni_sensei]

Greetings,

The HKD kicks are not from the same source as TKD, in fact TKD copied many of the Hapkido kicks which sources were Choi Yong Sool and Tae Kyon through Ji Han Jae.

But in keeping with your question, Ji's additional kicks were never intended for the "flash value" but for using them against more than one opponent in very effective and usable way.

Pardon?? Taekwon-Do took Hapkido's kicks? Self-defense techniques, yes, not sure I agree with leg techniques. Adapted from Shotokan and Taekkyon, yes, but not Hapkido.

However, nowadays, HKD and TKD have become so intertwined that arguements about which came from where are nigh on pointless.

[American HKD]

Pardon?? Taekwon-Do took Hapkido's kicks? Self-defense techniques, yes, not sure I agree with leg techniques. Adapted from Shotokan and Taekkyon, yes, but not Hapkido.

However, nowadays, HKD and TKD have become so intertwined that arguements about which came from where are nigh on pointless.

Greetings

It's a fact that Hapkido style of kicks is a soft style compared to TKD. HKD chamber and execution are much different. The interwined you speak of are because of TKD people who later learned HkD kept the TKD kicking style but it's not the true HKD kicking style, which is a problem for HKD because the real techniques are not being passed on correctly when this happens.

Hapkido was using many, many kicking techs while TKD was still using the Shotokan front, side, roundhouse.

TKD took the spinning heel from from Hapkido that kick for example was never in Tae Kyon or Shotokan. The twist kick, 2 foot jumping front, 2 foot jumping side, split kick, were all strictly Hapkido kicks and TKD picked these up many years after HKD.

No speculation here only facts. My source is the Founder of Hapkido Ji Han Jae who's credited with the majority of the HKD kicks.

[tbubb1]

lol, we use an ARSENAL of kicks in my school, which I really don't agree with...

mainly because, when I hear "Hapkido", I think : "Block an attack, then twist the attacker's limbs until they aren't trying to hit you anymore :cool: "

Many of the kicks my school teaches are DEFINATELY from TKD, as my cousin takes TKD (some stlye with a Moo in it I think? I don't remember) and our kicks are almost identical, with different names of course.

I love these kicks, though I don't think they belong in Hapkido, and use them VERY frequently when sparring because it scares the crap out of whoever I'm sparring (I'm one of, if not the tallest person in our adult class...and I'm 15 lol)...so when I do a double inside kick and almost kick the ceiling they run away.

I love using the kicks, but do not think they should be in hapkido.

Lol, I didn't know what the question was because it was removed, but that is my take on fancy kicks in HKD. :cool:

[Shihan]

Gentlemen,

From my limited knowledge of the history of Hapkido, there were no forms nor high kicks when first "created" by Choi. I also understand the role of kicks in Hapkido credited to Ji Han Jae, but as a person who also studies san shou, I perfer and like low kicks. I like to call it the " high - low principle" I like to break down the person foundation with strikes to the knees, thighs, and shins. When the lower body responses and the upper body buckle , that's when I attack it. After a person is thoroughly dazed or reacting from the pain, the proper locks and holds can be applied. Any thoughts ?

[mateo]

Although many senior hapkidoists (some with whom I've trained or met) claim that Hapkido's kicks come from Tae Kyon the Tae Kyon that I witnessed while living in Korea does not bear this out. Tae Kyon uses the heel or entire bottom surface of the foot for many kicks such as front kick, and this changes the mechanics considerably. (Much more like many kung fu styles)Their method of performing roundhouse perfers a contact point and a bending at the waist that is definitely not perferred in hapkido and the original form of the art has no turning kicks. The side kick mechanis also differ. (Robert Young also wrote an excellent article on Tae Kyon in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts. )

In terms of types of kicks hapkido appears to have a syllabus much more similar to Tang Soo Do but with a method of execution which is all its own.

I think it would be fair to say that the post-Choi generation practitioners looked at what was available around them and adapted kicking techniques while applying an execution method which was consistant with the principle of hapkido's way of creating force in hand and jointlocking techniques. In the end we have techniques similar to those found in Tang Soo Do and other arts but characterized by less knee emphasis, more swinging from the hip, greater emphasis upon power than speedy retraction. Hapkido's methos of generation force comes from a "soft concept" rather than a hard concept but many of the techniques it employs are found in the so-called harder styles like Taekwondo.

Just an opinion

Matthew Rogers
www.spiritforging.com

[American HKD]

Although many senior hapkidoists (some with whom I've trained or met) claim that Hapkido's kicks come from Tae Kyon the Tae Kyon that I witnessed while living in Korea does not bear this out. Tae Kyon uses the heel or entire bottom surface of the foot for many kicks such as front kick, and this changes the mechanics considerably. (Much more like many kung fu styles)Their method of performing roundhouse perfers a contact point and a bending at the waist that is definitely not perferred in hapkido and the original form of the art has no turning kicks. The side kick mechanis also differ. (Robert Young also wrote an excellent article on Tae Kyon in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts. )

In terms of types of kicks hapkido appears to have a syllabus much more similar to Tang Soo Do but with a method of execution which is all its own.

I think it would be fair to say that the post-Choi generation practitioners looked at what was available around them and adapted kicking techniques while applying an execution method which was consistant with the principle of hapkido's way of creating force in hand and jointlocking techniques. In the end we have techniques similar to those found in Tang Soo Do and other arts but characterized by less knee emphasis, more swinging from the hip, greater emphasis upon power than speedy retraction. Hapkido's methos of generation force comes from a "soft concept" rather than a hard concept but many of the techniques it employs are found in the so-called harder styles like Taekwondo.

Just an opinion

Matthew Rogers
www.spiritforging.com


Greetings,

Very good explaination. What is you HKD and or MA background?

It's a pleasure for me to see someone in this forum with a good understanding of HKD kicking style, almost always people wrongly lump HKD kicks in with TKD it apples and oranges.

Ji Han Jae claims HKD kicks come from Tae Kyon and from Choi Yong Sool so I would say your fairly acturate in the fact that the HKD kicks were adapted to fit the style from these two sources.

I see HKD kicks as being very very close to soft chinese kickings styles, quite different from TKD, TSD, Japanese, versions.

Bravo :)

[mateo]

My primary teacher is Master Hwang In-Shik here in Toronto and I have trained under others when living in Korea and Japan but I think I have always learned other things through the training mindset that I received from Master Hwang, if that makes sense.

You can see something of my own training background at www.spiritforging.com .

Suffice to say that I have spent a good deal of time training under a hapkido teacher who was/is quite famous for his kicking technique and yet is definitely coming from a different place and generating power differently than conventional Taekwondo practitioner's do.

It may be quite true that Choi Yong Sool didn't emphasize high kicking but it is also equally true that his students (even his first generation students)definitely did. I think it is fair to say that high kicks have become a part of the hapkido repetoire. I think hapkido is also somewhat of a conceptual art and one of its concepts is about not having limitations and thus hapkido incorporated striking of all varieties into its curriculum while bring them in line with its concepts of how power should be generated.

I think that it may also be noted that some very dramatic kicking exercises are designed to increased the practitioner's body control rather than to utilized, as is, in fighting. ( I'm thinking of certain dramatic jumping kicks that we employ. ) If one is able to throw a jumping front kick\ roundhouse combination in the air it makes one's regular roundhouse "fly" of its accord. A good abdominal core development exercise too.

[nj_howard]

...It may be quite true that Choi Yong Sool didn't emphasize high kicking but it is also equally true that his students (even his first generation students)definitely did. I think it is fair to say that high kicks have become a part of the hapkido repetoire....
Several of Choi's students have continued to teach the art as he taught it to them. Their styles of Hapkido do not use high kicks. Two examples are GMs Rim Jong Bae and Lim (Im) Hyun Soo.

I agree that high kicks have become an accepted part of most styles of Hapkido, and I think that Ji Han Jae can take a lot of the credit for that. But there are still a few "old school" kwans out there that never incorporated the elaborate kicking techniques that most people associate with Hapkido.

[American HKD]

Several of Choi's students have continued to teach the art as he taught it to them. Their styles of Hapkido do not use high kicks. Two examples are GMs Rim Jong Bae and Lim (Im) Hyun Soo.

I agree that high kicks have become an accepted part of most styles of Hapkido, and I think that Ji Han Jae can take a lot of the credit for that. But there are still a few "old school" kwans out there that never incorporated the elaborate kicking techniques that most people associate with Hapkido.


Greetings

Howard it's true and I respect the tradition and I also don't believe in many kicks just to have say have lots of kicks ( No point ), but most of the HKD kicks are not "flashy" for flash value, they are good useable kicks and they add rather than detract from HKD IMO.

I feel just because Choi didn't do them doesn't mean more than 10 kicks are of no value. Choi didn't do other weapons that HKD has now and I'm also glad they're in our system as well.

[American HKD]

Several of Choi's students have continued to teach the art as he taught it to them. Their styles of Hapkido do not use high kicks. Two examples are GMs Rim Jong Bae and Lim (Im) Hyun Soo.

I agree that high kicks have become an accepted part of most styles of Hapkido, and I think that Ji Han Jae can take a lot of the credit for that. But there are still a few "old school" kwans out there that never incorporated the elaborate kicking techniques that most people associate with Hapkido.


Greetings

Howard it's true and I respect the tradition and I also don't believe in many kicks just to have say we have lots of kicks ( No point ), but most of the HKD kicks are not "flashy" for flash value, they are good useable kicks and they add rather than detract from HKD IMO.

I feel just because Choi didn't do them doesn't mean more than 10 kicks are of no value. Choi didn't do other weapons that HKD has now and I'm also glad they're in our system as well.

[nj_howard]

Greetings

Howard it's true and I respect the tradition and I also don't believe in many kicks just to have say have lots of kicks ( No point ), but most of the HKD kicks are not "flashy" for flash value, they are good useable kicks and they add rather than detract from HKD IMO.

I feel just because Choi didn't do them doesn't mean more than 10 kicks are of no value. Choi didn't do other weapons that HKD has now and I'm also glad they're in our system as well.
Hi Stuart, I agree with you. I wasn't trying to say that the kicking repertoire that was added to Hapkido in addition to Choi's techniques is bad... I just meant that it's an element of Hapkido that came after Choi. I agree with you, the kicking techniques I've seen in certain styles of Hapkido are not flashy and look very effective.

btw, I'll see you next Sunday... I'm planning to be at the seminar along with my teacher. Really looking forward to it.

[American HKD]

Hi Stuart, I agree with you. I wasn't trying to say that the kicking repertoire that was added to Hapkido in addition to Choi's techniques is bad... I just meant that it's an element of Hapkido that came after Choi. I agree with you, the kicking techniques I've seen in certain styles of Hapkido are not flashy and look very effective.

btw, I'll see you next Sunday... I'm planning to be at the seminar along with my teacher. Really looking forward to it.

Great,

We may cover some of if not all of the 25 basic HKD kicks but I can't say for sure.