Peformance not demonstration

[YODA]

I'm reading a lot of stuff at the moment - one thing I'm doing is reading a lot of the Matt Thornton stuff I have archived and giving some of his best nuggets some real thought.

Here's a Q & A - speaks to me does this - in fact it YELLS at me...

===================

Q: You don't think you miss the spiritual part of all this when you take such a functional approach?

A: No, I think its the opposite. I think you miss the spiritual part of all this when you follow a Sifu and bow to ritual. The spiritual journey in all this exists in the DOING... the action of it. The actual doing... not the certificate, not the new techniques of it, not the talking about it, not the organization of it, not the certification of it, not the demonstration of it... NO... in the doing of it... thats where the spiritual aspects are. Its the heroes journey as outlined by Joseph Campbell. You have to have the balls to stand on your own, and face your demons. We do that through the environment created by resisting opponents. The more functional, the more contact, the more likely you are to confront your own ego. When their are no Sifus, no one can remain aloof. Everybody must step on the mat in front of others and show what they can actually do. For real... not a demonstration... but for real. You must tap out, get hit in the face, get tackled and kicked. We all do. We all must. We all meet our own ego. Thats the beginning of the spiritual journey. You see... do you understand? The rest is hippie ********. They may use semantics that sound spiritual... but its all hypocrisy. You cant fool yourself... they become bitter. Better to be honest and just train.

[Spike]

Certainly worth pondering.

IMHO If you`re looking for the spiritual side, you will find the spiritual side. If you don`t believe in CHi/Ki/the force (whatever you wanna call it) you won`t feel it. If you don`t want a spiritual side, you won`t see one.

And sometimes a beating is just a beating. The sparkly lights you can see after getting booted around aren`t necessarily Nirvana,

[Bon]

Spike, I think you missed the point? :confused:

I thought that was brillant, someone's certainly found the path of true enlightment. :p

[Spike]

No, I don`t think I did. I may have made my own interpretation and drawn my own conclusions from it.

But I didn`t miss the point.

[Andy Murray]

I found the article transparently obvious to comprehend, but I'd take issue on the subject of the Sifu.

When their are no Sifus, no one can remain aloof. Everybody must step on the mat in front of others and show what they can actually do.

This suggests, that some Sifu's are in fact aloof .

There is a point where we get to an age, and we can tell people how to do something far more effectively than we can actually demonstrate it. Must every Sifu, Zimmer his scrawny ass onto the mat to get his opinion heard? No, as some people accept that these people have been 'kings of the mat' in their own day.

[Andrew Green]

I agree and disagree.

Depends on the person and what they view as being spiritual. For some people it can be found in doing one thing over and over again, regardless of what that thing is.

Maintaining a rock garden, practicing a kata, chanting, meditation, whatever.

Spirituality is a very individual thing. For some it means following someone else and doing what they are told. Monks follow an abbot.... not a Tank Abbot... and it is spiritual for them.

I believe that anything you do can be spiritual, if you treat it that way.

[Melanie]

Originally posted by Andrew Green
I agree and disagree.

Depends on the person and what they view as being spiritual. For some people it can be found in doing one thing over and over again, regardless of what that thing is.

Maintaining a rock garden, practicing a kata, chanting, meditation, whatever.

Spirituality is a very individual thing. For some it means following someone else and doing what they are told. Monks follow an abbot.... not a Tank Abbot... and it is spiritual for them.

I believe that anything you do can be spiritual, if you treat it that way.

I can't believe I am doing this...but I actually agree with Andrew Green!

Knew I introduced you to this forum for some reason!

It's all a personal thing IMHO (and at my age I'm finally entitled to have one!). Although I have now branched out into other fields of MA, I personally still value the traditional Shotokan and (finally) will get back to it this week. I am also benefitting from the wisdom of others who provide better background and explanation in my training in the form of the SRSI (you wanna know more - do a Google search! or watch out for an article to come in the next few weeks from me). I treat my "spiritulism" in the arts as basic compulsive disorder but thats the way I deal with it. God I hope that made sense to some people...mind you it is getting late....

[Scotty Dog]

No, I don`t think I did. I may have made my own interpretation and drawn my own conclusions from it.

I aggree spike, I thought that was the point :-D



but I'd take issue on the subject of the Sifu.quote:
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When their are no Sifus, no one can remain aloof. Everybody must step on the mat in front of others and show what they can actually do.
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This suggests, that some Sifu's are in fact aloof .

I think I read this part different from you Andy. Granted no one would expect some one of your advanced years ( :p hig get's a big stick, hides in a corner & hopes that Andy see's the funny side of that coment;) )to get on the mat & kick the ass off every student in the class. to me it ment that an instructor should have a love of the actual training of the art they teach and practice that art even in front of their students. Can you honestly tell me that in all your training you've never trained with an instructor who's got so wrapped up in the running/politics/organisation of their club, the latest name they've had round to do a seminar, or the new pretty cert they just framed, that they stopped loving the actual act of putting on the glove's or doing a form. I've met to many instructors that think he black belt cert on the walls the end of their training not the begining ( sad to say I used to be one :( )

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by elhiggito




1/ I think I read this part different from you Andy. Granted no one would expect some one of your advanced years ( :p hig get's a big stick, hides in a corner & hopes that Andy see's the funny side of that coment;) )to get on the mat & kick the ass off every student in the class.

2/ To me it ment that an instructor should have a love of the actual training of the art they teach and practice that art even in front of their students.

3/ Can you honestly tell me that in all your training you've never trained with an instructor who's got so wrapped up in the running/politics/organisation of their club, the latest name they've had round to do a seminar, or the new pretty cert they just framed, that they stopped loving the actual act of putting on the glove's or doing a form.

4/ I've met to many instructors that think he black belt cert on the walls the end of their training not the begining ( sad to say I used to be one :( )

1/ My own ideas may be a little less mainstream on this issue. I believe the term Sifu is an honorific, and not a requirement. Though I taught CMA for many years, I never asked or expected anyone to use the title. In fact in around 12 years of teaching, only one person has ever elected to do so. I was just saying that with all the will in the world, everyone reaches a point where they can talk better than they walk. With my time over again, I'd love to have fought Thai and BJJ, where I made different choices. The idea of me training those systems competitively now though, are ridiculous as something would fall off. Having the ability to fight, doesn't necessarily empower someone to teach, and vice versa.

2/ Agreed 200%

3/ No, again I agree. I'll send you a link to a really old thread on here, and you'll see where I am coming from.

4/ It's part of the learning process. Some people never learn any more afte Black. Personally both Black Sash and Certificate were lost a long time ago, and aren't missed.

Happy to clarify further if that raises any more questions.

[Scotty Dog]

Good points Andy :)

Never liked the Sifu bit myself, at 1st due to a lack of self confidence, now because I think it puts an unness gap between an coach & his/her students.

Having the ability to fight, doesn't necessarily empower someone to teach, and vice versa.

I agree that being able to fight does not mean you can teach, however being able to fight at some time time is integral to teaching that. by this I don't mean that someone needs to go in the ring & fight NHB or go at it full out with minimal armour & hardwood stick's ( I personaly don't have the time to prepare or the body for those tight, tight shorts :p ) but you must at least try & do what your doing against someone thats giving you resistance.

For me that's where the spiritual side of this comes into it, I personally find I can't lie to myself on the Mat. you don't have to be taking the other guy's head off but after a couple of months of not tagging someone in sparring, you run out of exuses & start to look for reasons, then you improve. It's not a big leap till this starts to happen in your life outside the gym as well.

however if all you do in your training is "you do that, I do this " then you never find the parts of yourself you need or want to change.

everyone reaches a point where they can talk better than they walk

Again I agree with this, but I think it can be easy for this to be an excuse to stop walking & get one of those shop mobility scooters :D
Personaly I've more respect for a coach that is willing to train/roll with his students at a less competitive level and take a couple of shots without ego, than an ex world champ whos not willing to train for frear of not living up to the old day's.

when we spar I hardly ever say spar, usualy I ask who wants to play, it changes the mind set a little & let's people know you can have a resisting partner who's not going to be a d1ck & try & kill you

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by elhiggito
Good points Andy :)

1/ Never liked the Sifu bit myself, at 1st due to a lack of self confidence, now because I think it puts an unness gap between an coach & his/her students.



2/ I agree that being able to fight does not mean you can teach, however being able to fight at some time time is integral to teaching that. by this I don't mean that someone needs to go in the ring & fight NHB or go at it full out with minimal armour & hardwood stick's ( I personaly don't have the time to prepare or the body for those tight, tight shorts :p ) but you must at least try & do what your doing against someone thats giving you resistance.

3/ For me that's where the spiritual side of this comes into it, I personally find I can't lie to myself on the Mat. you don't have to be taking the other guy's head off but after a couple of months of not tagging someone in sparring, you run out of exuses & start to look for reasons, then you improve. It's not a big leap till this starts to happen in your life outside the gym as well.

4/ However, if all you do in your training is "you do that, I do this " then you never find the parts of yourself you need or want to change.



5/ I think it can be easy for this to be an excuse to stop walking & get one of those shop mobility scooters :D


6/ Personaly I've more respect for a coach that is willing to train/roll with his students at a less competitive level and take a couple of shots without ego, than an ex world champ whos not willing to train for frear of not living up to the old day's.

7/ when we spar I hardly ever say spar, usualy I ask who wants to play, it changes the mind set a little & let's people know you can have a resisting partner who's not going to be a d1ck & try & kill you

1/ That was kind of my point Graeme. There is no gap! It's a totally optional term of respect. You'll often see people referring to Guro Smith and Smith Sifu, but it's not a term they use to the man himself, only how they feel about them. That respect has to be earned.

2/ Too often, when we say fighting, what we actually mean is competing. Training competitively and fighting competitively are two different bowls of soup. I do what I can, when I can.

3/ I know what you mean.

4/ I've never trained like that personally, though I know it does go on.

5/ Shh, Dave doesn't know we've all chipped in for that. :D

6/ I'd agree with that. Though I have respect for anyone who has been in the arts for a long time in varying degrees.

7/ Same outlook.

[Scotty Dog]

on the 1st point, the only school I experienced this in ( been getting a bit of a mention recently here as well ) It wasn't optional. I forget that sometimes this isn't the case

2 another good point but I think it's better to make this mistake than to make the mistake of thinking that non compeditive training is fighting. the whole point of a fight is to impose your will on the other guy, be it " I'm not giving you my wallet" or I'm going to make you take a nap for saying that to my girlfriend" to do this there will be a competion of wills (granted it'll take place through their fists). the compeditive side has to be there our your just doing a dance.

3/ thank's thought that may have came out as gibberish :)

4/ embaressed to say I HAVE done that in the past, thought I'd learned then found out I was still doing it just in a different way. Hopefully I've got it now :)

5/ Cheque's in the post

6/ these day's with the way martial arts are viewed by the public I respect anyone that steps up to the mat, having trained for a bit I respect anyone that can juggle a family/personal life and train. there are however degrees to that respect :)

7/ cool :D

hig

[YODA]

5/ Shh, Dave doesn't know we've all chipped in for that.

Cool :D Can I have some 007 type gizmos on it? - You the the sort of thing... release a load of tacks out of the back, oil-slick, twin 50mm cannons on the front - just the basics :D

[Andy Murray]

Stabilisers, a shopping basket and a cushion for piles more like it. ;)

[YODA]

Piles of what? Lager? Scotch? Pizza? :D

[Melanie]

Oh well - I was obviously talking utter crap as no one has responded to any of my remarks - old and demented already yey!

[pgm316]

Originally posted by YODA


Q: You don't think you miss the spiritual part of all this when you take such a functional approach?

A: No, I think its the opposite. I think you miss the spiritual part of all this when you follow a Sifu and bow to ritual. The spiritual journey in all this exists in the DOING... the action of it. The actual doing... not the certificate, not the new techniques of it, not the talking about it, not the organization of it, not the certification of it, not the demonstration of it... NO... in the doing of it... thats where the spiritual aspects are.

Poor Mel, I agree with you!

It is an individual approach, so its wrong to say this way is right and this way is wrong. Whatever the way may be!

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Melanie
Oh well - I was obviously talking utter crap as no one has responded to any of my remarks - old and demented already yey!

Everyone read back please! Melanie has graced us with a post! :D :D :D

[Scotty Dog]

Sorry Mel,

Meant to put my tuppence in or your post but my replys were looking a bit long.

I can see how doing a repedative action can help to clear your mind, however for me I find that the actual facing of my badpoints and weakness (the parts of me I'm not happy with) and changeing them is when I feel most spiritual when training.

The moment I admit to myself that I'm scared that stick will hurt, that my ego's not quite up to tapping to that beginer. Then putting on the head gear & gloves anyway, or finding out I'm actually proud of him when he gets me. For Me that's where it is :)

as for
Spirituality is a very individual thing. For some it means following someone else and doing what they are told. Monks follow an abbot.... not a Tank Abbot... and it is spiritual for them.
I agree with the 1st part andrew but not with the second.

while it is individual, and everyone should find their own spirituality. I can't see how following someone else will do that. Personally I have more than one person I look up to and respect in that area, but I make my own decisions and look at each bit of advice on an piece by piece basis. Blindly following an Abbot, Guru, Sifu, Sensei may make you feel like a spiritual person but it's more likely that they've just told you you feel that way.

Without being a bruce lee groupy.
(in best kung fu movie voice)
"don't concentrate on the finger, or you will miss all that heavenly glory" :)

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by elhiggito
I can't see how following someone else will do that.

It depends on your beliefs. Living a life of servitude is/was believed to be "correct" from a religious point of view by some.

If that is your belief then doing so can be spiritual. If your religious beliefs say kill off all non-arians then that can be spiritual.

Doesn't make it right, and don't have to agree with it, but for them it is.

If I base my religious beliefs around channel surfing as the way in to heaven then channel surfing can be spiritual....

silly, but spiritual.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Melanie
I can't believe I am doing this...but I actually agree with Andrew Green!


I think everyone just thought they where hallucinating and you didn't really post.... Or you where at least really drunk and they where waiting for you to come back sobber and edit.


I am also benefitting from the wisdom of others who provide better background and explanation in my training in the form of the SRSI

Oww!!

Just bit my tongue :confused:

[Melanie]

Hahahaha - sorry Andrew ;)

Maybe we actually reach a state of stupor after repeating the same move over and over again.

?

[Scotty Dog]

Doesn't make it right, and don't have to agree with it, but for them it is.

damn, I hate it when people use logic to argure :(

I agree that everyone should have there own choice, I just can't understand why someone would want to give that choice away.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Melanie
Hahahaha - sorry Andrew ;)


And you should be, how dare you agree with me :D

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by elhiggito
damn, I hate it when people use logic to argure :(


:P


I agree that everyone should have there own choice, I just can't understand why someone would want to give that choice away.

They choose too ;)