IMA with EMA + Weight training?

[New Guy]

I am currently doing an external style, and some weight training in free times... I decided to try out Tai Chi, which has some meditation and Chi Kung... but I want to know, if things will interfere with each other? If I develop good chi/qing in Tai Chi class, will it get screwed when I do my weight training? Will I be able to learn Tai Chi properly after I have been pounding people around(or get pound) in my EMA class with hard and fast kick and punch???

[gerard]

Forget about it. It doesn't make sense being hard and flowing like water (IMA main principle) at the same time. I suggest you to read DD/TT Ching to understand Daoist principles in depth.

Weight training is similar to Qigong/Chi Gung, it's god for your overall wellbeing and stimulates testosterone production. However it is close to fire qigong therefore you have to be careful when you combine it with IMA practice. It should be done infrequently though, like only once a week (maximum) and without falling into the high-intensity domain.

Just trial and error. See how it goes. Back off if you experience too much tension.

All the best.

[New Guy]

Forget about it. It doesn't make sense being hard and flowing like water (IMA main principle) at the same time. I suggest you to read DD/TT Ching to understand Daoist principles in depth.
But I don't need to use both external and internal skills in a fight, just because I know them, do I? I am interested in learning the thing, and the training, and the whole chi kung thing, not necessarily try to "combine" them. I will be doing both things at different times during some days though, maybe weight training in the morning, IMA in the afternoon then EMA at night time...

But yea I guess I give it a go and see... I was wondering if bad things will happen, but once again I will not try to "combine" anything, just learning more things.

So... what is fire qigong????

Thanks.

[piratebrido]

Why would it effect it?

Tai Chi is a martial art. In martial arts you need to hit people. To hit people you need power. The more functional muscle you have the more power your body can generate. Someone with good technique and some muscle will hit harder than someone with good technique and no muscle.

I don't understand why people think that muscle mass equates to being bad at internal styles.

Tai Chi is about the whole Yin/Yang thing. It's a balance. To me these people are all yin. Jing is educated force. We know to apply force you need technique and muscle. Locking horns and going head to head is wrong certainly, but that isn't Jing. You use Yin to counter your opponents Yang, then you attack his Yin with your Yang.

There is good sence in training muscle. Not talking body building, but building functional muscle and power.

[New Guy]

Ok I'll be trying out Tai Chi tomorrow night, but I may be end up doing Xing Yi because of cost and location.

The problem is that I am not too sure about Chi/qi, that's why I ask if anyone knows anything.

Well the goals in my weight training is mainly fat loss and strength, not much body building, although I wouldn't mind if the muscle size increase a little.

[piratebrido]

Ok I'll be trying out Tai Chi tomorrow night, but I may be end up doing Xing Yi because of cost and location.

The problem is that I am not too sure about Chi/qi, that's why I ask if anyone knows anything.

Well the goals in my weight training is mainly fat loss and strength, not much body building, although I wouldn't mind if the muscle size increase a little.

Chi is usually spoken about by people when they want to appear mystical and special, or try to part people with their money. There is nothing about Chi that can't be explained by modern medical science.

Tai Chi promotes good posture, deep breathing, gentle exercise of all the muscles and slow repetitive movements gently massage your internal organs. All this improves the circulation in your body. It isn’t Qi that is making you feel good, it is the above.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0912111631/ref=ase_practicaltaic-21/202-6177435-4223002

Haven’t read it yet but I heard it is a good one. Plan to get it next month when I get paid.

[inthespirit]

The general way Internal Arts generate and absorb power is as follows. To absorb and/or strike the following methods are usually applied. A practitioner either uses the force exerted on them and/or gravity to sink/drop the force in to the ground, and dissipate it. At the same time the sinking/dropping process acts on the musculature and tendons by means similar to loading a spring. I.e. As the force connects to the body, the practitioner redirects it in to the ground by sinking/dropping ones body in to the ground. The sinking/dropping action is learnt by correct ‘chi kung’ and/or form practice. This allows one to let the force pass through the relaxed musculature in a downward manner, as this process takes place, the tendons in the legs, waist, spine and arms, are wound up/coiled like a spring, allowing one to release the energy that has just been loaded in to the tendons. The release can be done sequentially to produce more power, though this requires greater training, i.e. one learns to connect all the individual movements in a wave like manner, hence, stalking the energy and focusing it on to a single point, or as required. In the above manner every strike or block, is already gearing the body up for the next attack. Hence yin and yang interact harmoniously, a retreat is an attack and vice versa, though there are other factors to be considered such as correct footwork and double weighting. Each style has its own methods of footwork which is geared to its specific energetic profile, i.e. Xing Yi – primarily forward moving energy, Tai Chi – primarily moves energy back and forth, Ba Gua – dynamic, unpredictable energy.

If one trains too much externally, it is possible one may loose, or never gain the ability to move as described above, this is for several reasons. One may habitually use brute strength, the muscles may never be soft enough to allow one to condition and learn to utilize the tendons, and that’s about all I can think off at the moment. But saying that, some people can and do combine external and internal training, personally I would not recommend it, however it is possible, though necessary guidance and know how is required, otherwise one will be wasting their time. In other words unless your teacher specifically knows how to do it , then don’t do it.


EDIT: For some info on how tendons/ligaments store energy one may wish to do some research in to how Kangaroos move around, they are an extreme example of how to absorb and release force using the tendons/ligaments.

[New Guy]

inthespirit, I may or may not get what you are saying, but I try... it is good that you are talking about IMA in genernal though that I may not be only doing Tai Chi but also Xing Yi.

So you learn to "sink" to the ground??? I am wondering if that would mean that you would be rooted to the ground so much, that you won't be moving around as fast???? In my EMA class, we are suppose to bend our knees and try to be light on the feet, while having resistance against your opponent.

I am not too sure about the tendon thing, but in my EMA class, my instructor told me to be relax all the way, then tense the muscle just before it hits something, e.g. the fist is always relaxed untill just before it hits to broad. Power of the hip, triceps are also twisted to generate more power. I think that's quite similar to the tendon thing...

[nzric]

So you learn to "sink" to the ground??? I am wondering if that would mean that you would be rooted to the ground so much, that you won't be moving around as fast???? In my EMA class, we are suppose to bend our knees and try to be light on the feet, while having resistance against your opponent.
Good question

A lot of the weird stepping in IMA is to train deceptive stepping and the distinction of weighted/non-weighted feet. That means your opponent doesn't know where your "centre" is, and you've got the potential to move in any direction. Remember IMA are responsive arts - they're intended for quick defence and counter-attacking so the stance is built around reactive movement.

While you may move a little more quickly using a light, bouncing EMA stance, you're advertising your centre of gravity and you're a lot more off-balance. You also build up momentum which limits your potential to change direction.

Also, the most important thing is power generation. While in EMA you generate power with the waist/shoulders/arm/hips, etc, in a punch, in IMA you also generate power through the ground (kind of like when you push start a car. You use the ground to push, not just your muscle strength).

[inthespirit]

So you learn to "sink" to the ground???

Its a bit difficult to explain, but peaty much what NZRic. You basically learn to focus force/pressure/gravity in to the ground when applied to you, and from the ground up, when you want to apply it to something or someone, this involves a combination of relaxation, tendon elasticity, intention, timing, and various other factors. But, the way the training is designed is to make these abilities reflexive, so you don’t have to think how to do it, like riding a bicycle. Its basically a different way of using your body, more closely related to how some animals move around, internally. As with regards to sinking a good example of this is cats. They are very good at sinking, you can feel this when you pick them up, they always flow down, due to their elasticity and relaxation, its like picking up a water, it always flows down. Due to this their also very resilient, because of their water like state, any shock waves traveling through their body, dissipate easily as opposed to something tense. Stepping methods, also share some similarities with the way a cat moves, but its best to try it out for yourself, I’m sure if you lean from a competent teacher these things will become apparent sooner or later.

[pseudo999]

Go for it. Make sure you have good instructors, though. A lot of silly people out there. You can incorporate taiji practices into your 'external' art, and your 'external' art can inform much of your taiji.

The thing about weightlifting to watch out for is simply bad form. Any decent weightlifting instructor will tell you this much, but bad form, increasing weight too quickly, or starting too heavily will mess up your structure and can produce bad habits, increase tension in your body, produce crappy posture and body structure, and be injurious to yourself. This is especially bad if you want to get anywhere in taiji. I find that after doing taiji, with its emphasis on structural integrity and relaxation, I weightlift very differently, trying to maintain nei gong principles while lifting (perfectly doable) and caring a lot less as to how much I can lift, as long as I do it right. I don't recommend against weightlifting, but I would recommend you get an internal sense of relaxation and structure before you start weightlifting in earnest.

One last caveat: weightlifters often work only major muscle groups. Though useful, a lot of martial arts, internal and external, rely heavily upon minor structural and support muscles. Just because someone can bench a lot doesn't mean that person can resist all angles of attack, redirections, locks, or produce power in all directions. Weightlifting is a supplement, not an end in and of itself. This should be kept in mind.

[New Guy]

Oh ok, thanks, it sounds like a whole new MA concept, I'll get my hands on it!

I visited the Tai Chi place I found, but I don't think I was welcomed... everyone was about 50yrs+, and the intructor person notice there is a new face (not that I know who it may be)... so no I just went back... I hope that it will be better atmosphere when I try Xing Yi...

I am not really thinking of incorporate IMA with EMA, I just want to learn it... I am just thinking that it is like I learnt how to repair a car, I might as well learn how to repair a a plane; some concepts may be the same and some aren't.

As for weight training, it is not quite the same as weight lifting is it??? Well all I am getting from it is the extra strength + stamia and less fat... and yea I train for the whole body. I still maintain my EMA, and weight training helped a little in my EMA sparring and stuff.

Anyway thanks for the info, I am really interest and excited about trying Xing Yi now!

[MartialArtsSnob]

Oh ok, thanks, it sounds like a whole new MA concept, I'll get my hands on it!

If you do this and do it for a while, the above quote will make you laugh. Tai Chi is not a "doing" it is more of an "undoing". The last thing you will want to do is "get your hands on it" because it is mostly about letting go.


I am not really thinking of incorporate IMA with EMA, I just want to learn it...


With a good teacher you won't have a choice. You won't want one either.

Do them all, just do them all well. Good luck.

Snob

[inthespirit]

New Guy.. what country are you in? Maybe, fellow MAP'ers could offer some insight.

[New Guy]

MartialArtsSnob, as I said it my previous post, I am not going to try Tai Chi, can't find a decent group... :( I don't mind about "undoing", I never know what I can do/undo if I never attemp...

inthespirit, I live in Canberra Australia... it would be nice to have local MAP'ers but most I've seen so far are living in Sydney and I rarely goto Sydney...

[MartialArtsSnob]

MartialArtsSnob, as I said it my previous post, I am not going to try Tai Chi, can't find a decent group... :( I don't mind about "undoing", I never know what I can do/undo if I never attemp...

inthespirit, I live in Canberra Australia... it would be nice to have local MAP'ers but most I've seen so far are living in Sydney and I rarely goto Sydney...

Ya, you won't be doing Tai Chi Chuan but if you do any IMA including Hsing-I you will be practicing the very same concepts (Tai Chi). Why the frown? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to insult you. It is simply that these arts are very different in approch than what you have done up till now. Like I said good luck!

Snob

[New Guy]

I do know that it is a different concept to what I am doing now, in fact that's the reason why I am interested in it, I want to try something new, and do things I couldn't do with EMA/weight training alone.

Thanks.

[gerard]

There is nothing about Chi that can't be explained by modern medical science

:eek:



NG,

Go to the gym but please don't over do it. Train once/twice a week max. without going overboard. I wouldn't suggest you to start Qigong training without knowing what you're doing. Look for someone knowledgeable.

Get your self a copy of these books:

1. The Roots of Chinese Qigong - Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming

2. A Complete Guide to Chi-Gung - Daniel Reid

Seriously, don't dare to practise Qigong on your own because you'll most likely to get hurt, unless you live in a non-urban environment and have mastered self-knowledge skills.


All the best in your quest.

:)

[New Guy]

Go to the gym but please don't over do it. Train once/twice a week max. without going overboard. I wouldn't suggest you to start Qigong training without knowing what you're doing. Look for someone knowledgeable.
Ok well, can you give me any reason that weight-training more than
twice a week is consider as "overboard"? What is overboard? And how does that affect me, and my IMA training?Get your self a copy of these books:
1. The Roots of Chinese Qigong - Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming
2. A Complete Guide to Chi-Gung - Daniel ReidThanks for your recommendation, but those are in English are they? I can read Trad. Chinese pretty well so if you know any good one that is written in Chinese, that would be the best! :DSeriously, don't dare to practise Qigong on your own because you'll most likely to get hurt, unless you live in a non-urban environment and have mastered self-knowledge skills.Oh, I found a club so I don't really need to try learn Qigong on my own, it is too confusing to read it from a book when you don't know something about it already!

[gerard]

Ok well, can you give me any reason that weight-training more than
twice a week is consider as "overboard"? What is overboard? And how does that affect me, and my IMA training?

Man, It takes an entire book to explain why overdoing resistance/anaerobic/weight training will affect yor physical wellbeing and IMA training

Thanks for your recommendation, but those are in English are they? I can read Trad. Chinese pretty well so if you know any good one that is written in Chinese, that would be the best!

Learn English please, because many Chinese grandmasters/masters publish their books in English money to make a better living. In addition it will help you to improve your English skills:

1. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/103-6226329-0704638

2. http://www.shouyuliang.com/books/qigong_empowerment.shtml (I forgot to mention this book in my previous message. This is a must have book)

3. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1570625433/qid=1109042625/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-6226329-0704638?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 (This book is very good because it shows you exercises to harmonise kan (water) and li (fire) when you practice Qigong. It also gives you warm-up, cool down exercises as well as a enough info to practice "Xiao Zhou Tian" (microcosmic orbit) when you practice your sitting meditation.

:DOh, I found a club so I don't really need to try learn Qigong on my own, it is too confusing to read it from a book when you don't know something about it already!

Books will supplement your learning progress. Don't avoid them unless you train with a genuine Daoist/Buddhist/Wushu/Medical Qigong master/grandmaster. Then you will even forget about this forum

The explanation given by Donjitsu2 abbreviates and saves me of excessive writing. I hope this link finally clarifies the problem of mixing weightlifting and martial arts (not only internal):

http://emptyforce.com/openBB/read.php?TID=24

:)

[pseudo999]

Hmm. One more thing about weightlifting: If you get too strong too quickly, you can become over-dependent upon your external strength (especially in sparring or push-hands), and thus underdevelop your internal strength, or maybe you think your muscles _are_ your internal strength. Then you can totally forget about doing IMA's (that is the goal, right?).

[Shadowdh]

Most of the replies re weightlifting are from a very laymen point of view... lifting weights wont turn you into a bodybuilder overnight (yes there is a difference between weightlifting and bodybuilding...) and you wont gain strength too quickly nor gain mass incredibly fast unless youre either incredibly genetically gifted or you dedicate your life to that particular goal and even then it can be a long slow road...!!!

Regarding weights and taiji... no problem... in fact one helps the other in terms of functionality and strength and correct posture when lifting... without weight lifting I would not have been able to attain some of the very low stances within my style (Chen) and taiji has helped alot when I lift weights... better biomechanics much more awareness of my body and its feedback too...

[New Guy]

gerard, I don't think I don't as much free times as you do, so please stop offering books as I am not getting any of them. BTW learn English? You mean you can't understand what I am saying right now?

pseudo999, I'll try keep that in mind, and try not to use brute strength in push hand.

Shadowdh, well I know enough about weight training, I am doing it for health and fitness, NOT bodybuilding, it is a good workout and I like it. But I am not doing Taiji, I'll be having my first lesson of XingYi next week. (Hopefully.)

Afterall, I am just really learning something extra, but not I don't think I'll be "mixing" or "combine" anything, I just wanted to know if external strength effects internal in some way.

BTW, have anyone heard of or know someone who can really effectively use IMA and EMA in a fight? Or trains in both IMA and EMA?

[Shadowdh]

NG... good stuff... if you enjoy it then keep at it... its beneficial in soo many ways... sorry about the taiji ref... I was speaking from my point of view but you could replace taiji with IMA... as to external effecting internal I would say yes they do... yin and yang... when one diminishes then the other must suffer... when one increases the the other benefits...

I believe there are those who use IMA in fighting (check out the taiji section for some examples and there are those who train in IMA and EMA...

[New Guy]

Yea I get what you mean, the yinyang thing has introduced to me when I am little... well I think I'll stop my EMA training for a month when I start IMA, then I'll be concentrate on IMA ideas and hopefully grasp it quicker.

Another thought comes to mind, if in IMA the point is to relax, wouldn't it be a good excercise after you did weight-training, where your muscles needs to repair and you really need to relax?

[Shadowdh]

I find that keeping them sperated by a few hours is better as straight after weights I am pretty keyed up (and quite sore/knackered) so I practice IMA in the morning and weights in the afternoon/evening... also even though IMA works wonders for you practicing still uses muscles with varying degree of intensity...

I was told by Chen Ying Jun that weights is ok but first I should make sure my posture is right and locked in then continue with weights... makes sense and gives my body a break...

[nzric]

Weights might change your balance/coordination for a while, as your body is pumped up to varying degrees. Also you'll be hyped so it'll be harder to relax.

Have you ever gone for a long bike ride then tried to run? It's not a pretty sight. Better to wait an hour or so or take it easy when you do the IMA after any hard weights training.

[New Guy]

Hmm well I'll be doing weights in the morning (5:00) next Tuesday and start Xing Yi in the afternoon (5:00 after school!), that'll be enough right? The introduction lesson probably won't be too hard anyway...

So IMA will teach you good posture right? Then it would make sense that I apply that posture in weight training right?

Anyway, you can't use internal-only or external-only strength at any given time can you? I mean, say if you practise IMA, you muscle does move, and it has to burn some energy, maybe it is just that you use more of internal-strength?

[cloudz]

Hey there NG

Your assumption is pretty much correct at any given time your movement will be consisting of a certain amount of Li (muscular strength/tension) and also 'chi' or if you like internal relaxed biomechanics (TM). EMA and IMA training just have opposing starting points of this spectrum. Some people theorize that although the starting points of the training are diametrically opposed, the 2 paths lead to the same summit. That is why you will see many EMA masters able to display subtle internal qualities following years of training. It would be silly to suggest that an IMA practioner only uses 'chi' and cannot use 'Li' in their art. Although they have different starting points I would suggest that the goal of both EMA and IMA would be to reach the level of having full control of the way they use their body for fighting ie. what ratio of Li/chi they can manifest.

As far as your dilemma goes I would say that perhaps it's not the best idea to try to start from both ends simultaneously as this may impede your progress and lead to confusion. Start from either the EMA side or IMA side and after some understanding go for the other. Or you could take a style that is has both aspects within it such as praying mantis, pak mei, baji etc.

For me personally pak mei was a great introduction to the internal side of MA, and now that I do taiji, I feel that I just could not revert back to a hard style such as Karate for example. But thats just me, and we are all different. Horses for courses!

As for weights - if you feel that it is in balance with the rest of your training - then do it. Personally I don't have the time or inclination to do it properly, so aswell as cardio I do resistance training like push up, sit ups, rowing machine etc. I do occasionally pick up some dumbells (who doesn't want perky biceps :) ) but thats about it.

Best of luck in your training

P.S you've picked a great art in Hsing yi - let us know how you like it.

[inthespirit]

Anyway, you can't use internal-only or external-only strength at any given time can you? I mean, say if you practise IMA, you muscle does move, and it has to burn some energy, maybe it is just that you use more of internal-strength?
Internal and external are just different ways of moving, if you practice internal martial arts a lot and correctly, all of your daily movements will begin to be imbued with internal principles. This is primarily due to the daily practice of internal principles becoming habitual. Likewise, if you train externally, you may find it harder to adapt to using internal principles, because it is possible that your mind/body will retain habits of moving externally.

A very vague example of this would be opening a heavy door with a push. In a crude internal way your arm would hardly bend, and most of the strength would come from an integration of various movements in to one, i.e. you would place your hand on the door and then transfer your weight from the back to the front, twisting your lead leg, waist and spine, and from all this power generation your arm may bend a bit from the weight of the door, but a lot of pressure could be applied to the door to open it. Whereas if you did it externally, you may have your arm bent completely at the elbow, and use the strength of you arm muscles to push your arm straight and thus push the door, you may also add a squat motion on your leg to propel your body forward thus opening the door.

Internal uses a lot of light, small, numerous individual movements combined together and focused to a point.

Whereas external uses heavy, big movements, sometimes combined together as well. Though with the movements being large and heavy, it uses a lot of energy, and only a few can be strung together, because there is just not enough individual sections when the ones being employed are so large.

Anyway, this is a very vague explanation and there are a lot more factors involved, this is just to give you an idea.

[gerard]

Someone mentioned that the advice given here is by laymen. Well, I have been lifting for almost 20 years and I don't consider myself a rookie.

In China, masters say that external martial artists will gravitate toward internal training (Nei Dan) at one stage (when they get old) to avoid San Gong (dispersion of qi). The same (but opposite) can be said about internal practitioners, they tend to train toward Wai Dan later on in their careers. Can you see here again Yin & Yang play?

Relying upon weight training to improve martial art skill is a falacy. That's why we have in exercise prescription the principle of SPECIALISATION: To succeed in your sport TRAIN YOUR SPORT.

Today I hardly lift, mainly once every 7/10 days and moderately because my body is too Yang. I have to balance this foundation with yin (lots of meditation, Qigong and other internal arts if that's the case) otherwise I'd be dead.

NG, take this advice as you want it but remember you can't go against Yin & Yang (even if you don't want to) as eventually they will lead you to the path of balance.

[pseudo999]

BTW, have anyone heard of or know someone who can really effectively use IMA and EMA in a fight? Or trains in both IMA and EMA?

Yes and yes. A full list will make for some controversy, so I will name one mainly non-controvertial guy, Tim Cartmell, who's one of the better known internal stylists. Check out his site at www.shenwu.com. The link to his 'virtual academy' has some nice clips.

[soggycat]

I'm not so sure if Tim Cartmell advocates mxing IMA with EMA:

ALL my Internal teachers say weight training is a big No No in Internal Martial Arts as traditionally taught in China.
Weight training is only suitable if doing External Arts by itself.

But some people make the grievous mistake of concurrently training in both Internal and External arts .
This benefits the External style ,at the expense of the Internal art.
The reason is this.
EMA emphasises developing muscles. EMA stances in the forms often show tightened muscles and clenched jaws.
Such factors goes against the grain of Internal mentality because big and tight muscles impede speed.
IMA requires that a person’s muscles be loose in order to achieving “flinging speed” , where limbs act like flexible whips.

A case in point is recounted by Robert W Smith , an American who spent many years studying Bagua, Hsing Yi Tai Chi etc in Taiwan / China.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/155643085X/qid=1110422686/sr=2-2/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_2/104-5712305-2836756

One day his Bagua master Paul Koh walked in on him (secretly) training in Shaolin ( EMA) techniques. He was basically throwing a large slab of concrete in the air and catching it. The Sifu said he will not continue to teach unless the student stopped, because such activity would destroy any progress in IMA, and thus waste his teacher’s time .Like trying to fill a water tank with a big hole.

And consistent with Taoist philosophy, quoting from The Tao Te Ching :
" And the weak shall overcome the strong"

[gerard]

Weight training makes your body too YANG therefore causing damage to your internal organs. In addition it creates SAN GONG or qi dispersion making you sick.

If you are young is O.K. as I said internal artists will gravitate toward external training eventually (and after many years of practice and having achieved a sound and solid foundation in their practice). So Yin moves to Yang to achieve balance.

External artists or people who train exclusively wai qi will gravitate to internal training (in order to cultivate nei qi) after they have achieved a solid and sound foundation in their practice and achieved mastery. You need years to get to this stage. So Yang moves to Yin to achieve balance.

Now, what happens if you mix both:

No good because you'll be too tense to get the benefits of internal training as well as getting into a San Gong state (internal artists) or too soft to get the benefits of external training.

I hope this clarifies well enough this thread.


Cheers.

[soggycat]

Weight training makes your body too YANG therefore causing damage to your internal organs. In addition it creates SAN GONG or qi dispersion making you sick.

If you are young is O.K. as I said internal artists will gravitate toward external training eventually (and after many years of practice and having achieved a sound and solid foundation in their practice). So Yin moves to Yang to achieve balance.

Cheers.
Gerard,
I agree with your comments of moving from EMA to IMA, but totally and completely disagree with (above)
comments about moving from IMA to EMA.

Let me put it bluntly. No person who has spent years training in IMA will ever in his right mind move to EMA subsequently.
IMA is far more energy efficient, requires no strength & pain conditioning or stretching and most importantly rely on Qi not muscle.

I don’t know where you got that opinion from, but what I just said is supported by all 3 of my Mainland born IMA masters, 2 of whom moved from EMA to IMA and now scoff yes SCOFF at EMA as the wrong, poor ,inefficient and difficult way of doing things.

Most youngsters who don’t know much about Martial Arts except from Movies are of course attracted to EMA’s like Karate, TKD and Shaolin because of the large flashy movements which are impractical in a fight.

That’s because IMA has never been advertised and publicised as much as EMA. Like how many people are aware that “Crouching Tiger , Hidden Dragon” is one of the few rare films to feature IMA / Wudang arts ?

Once an IMA cultivates and refines his Qi thru years of dedicated practise, he is not about to lose it all by doing EMA. EMA training techniques of muscle development, harsh pain conditioning, tightening muscles will negate all that Qi cultivation.

Of course there’s a special group of people who (incorrectly) practise IMA with effort and erroneously believe that to be pure IMA and lyears ater wonder why they haven’t developed any Qi . These people have had the wrong teacher, and there are many of them around. Some belong to the “ Performance Wushu” category.


IMA training should be , like my Taoist teacher says, according to IMA scriptures, “ From Yau Wei to Wu Wei “
Which means “ From with-effort to no-effort”


I heard of at least one 6th Dan TKD / Hapkido instructor in Sydney who ripped his Knee ligament right in the middle of TKD class and was out of work for 6 months.

He has now TURNED HIS BACK on all External Martial Arts and focussing more on Tai Chi, Bagua, XingYi, Aikido ( all the IMA stuff) which he had been studying on the side for last 10 years.
:)

[Shadowdh]

Its quite funny how alot of IMA people forget about the principles they purport to uphold... yin AND yang and all that... yin and yang is everywhere on every level and why not on the macro as well as micro...

[gerard]

Gerard,

Let me put it bluntly. No person who has spent years training in IMA will ever in his right mind move to EMA subsequently.
IMA is far more energy efficient, requires no strength & pain conditioning or stretching and most importantly rely on Qi not muscle.

How do you know? However you must read better my posts. IMA will not move to Yang (EMA) but they will eventually incorporate more external techniques in their fighting to achieve balance with yang. Hence Yin gravitates to Yang. Just check the background of famous Chinese internal artists. Please don't make me give names. We all know who they are.

I don’t know where you got that opinion from, but what I just said is supported by all 3 of my Mainland born IMA masters, 2 of whom moved from EMA to IMA and now scoff yes SCOFF at EMA as the wrong, poor ,inefficient and difficult way of doing things.

You are contradicting yourself here. You say that they moved from EMA to IMA, which is right as Yang moves to Yin to find balance.

Most youngsters who don’t know much about Martial Arts except from Movies are of course attracted to EMA’s like Karate, TKD and Shaolin because of the large flashy movements which are impractical in a fight.

You reckon I am a youngster??? Thanks :love:


That’s because IMA has never been advertised and publicised as much as EMA. Like how many people are aware that “Crouching Tiger , Hidden Dragon” is one of the few rare films to feature IMA / Wudang arts ?

You see. I caught you again. Qing Gong is external in nature as it involves gradual stretching of the lower leg ligaments as well as training with heavy sandbags.

Once an IMA cultivates and refines his Qi thru years of dedicated practise, he is not about to lose it all by doing EMA. EMA training techniques of muscle development, harsh pain conditioning, tightening muscles will negate all that Qi cultivation.


Of course there’s a special group of people who (incorrectly) practise IMA with effort and erroneously believe that to be pure IMA and lyears ater wonder why they haven’t developed any Qi . These people have had the wrong teacher, and there are many of them around. Some belong to the “ Performance Wushu” category.


IMA training should be , like my Taoist teacher says, according to IMA scriptures, “ From Yau Wei to Wu Wei “
Which means “ From with-effort to no-effort”


I heard of at least one 6th Dan TKD / Hapkido instructor in Sydney who ripped his Knee ligament right in the middle of TKD class and was out of work for 6 months.

He has now TURNED HIS BACK on all External Martial Arts and focussing more on Tai Chi, Bagua, XingYi, Aikido ( all the IMA stuff) which he had been studying on the side for last 10 years.
:)

The rest of your post is just reiterative. However you still must prove that IMA does not include EMA components after +/- 30 years of training. Prove it and I send you a blank cheque :D


;)

[soggycat]

Gerard,
I suspect the main reason why we disagree is that you view EMA as Yang and IMA as Yin.
This is not really the correct way of interpreting Yin Yang philosophy.
I am aware in Taoism Yin is Internal, Yang is External, Yin is Cool , Yang is Hot, Yin is Soft and Yang is Hard etc etc.

But when EMA is labelled “External “ or “Hard” style, it does not mean the body is becoming Yang.
Conversely IMA is labelled “Internal” or “Soft”, it does not mean the body is becoming Yin.

An experienced Tai Chi Master with great Fajing powers can hit you with great Hard force coming from a soft source.
You can hardly consider that to be “Yin”

Additionally enlightend ex-Shaolin people move from EMA to IMA, not because they want to move from Yang to Yin, but because they realise Shaolin is too energy inefficient.
The most famous fighter to do this , why you might have heard of Chang San Feng ….he only founded Tai Chi in the 1300’s.

The correct way( according to Taoism) to view IMA and EMA is both contains Yin and Yang .
Again , this comes from my Taoist teachers, not from some academic text books about IMA

I’ve actually met a non Chinese speaking TCM graduate of UTS who tried to convince me that a good fighter must balance IMA and EMA, because according to his interpretation, IMA=Yin , EMA = Yang and we need both in equal portion to maintain Yin Yang Balance. I gave up trying to explain to him it was the wrong way of looking at it.

His martial arts experience ?
Zero

[soggycat]

Its quite funny how alot of IMA people forget about the principles they purport to uphold... yin AND yang and all that... yin and yang is everywhere on every level and why not on the macro as well as micro...

Agreed. Too many IMA people forget or misunderstand.
IMA contains Yin and Yang
EMA also contains Yin and Yang

In Bagua, some moves are cosider Yin and others Yang.
There's also the Yin hand and Yang hand , ( supinate or pronated positions)

[gerard]

Gerard,
I suspect the main reason why we disagree is that you view EMA as Yang and IMA as Yin.

Hello,

I am not confused. Everything contains Yin & Yang. From the smallest particle (quarks) to the Pistol star (http://starchild.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/StarChild/questions/question21.html)

IMA and EMA ain't no different. However EMA are Yang in nature (for instance: http://www.shaolin-wushu.de/en/main_fr.htm?downloads.htm), whereas IMA are Yin in nature (for instance:http://www.hsing-i.com/pa_kua/index.html).

The rest is just pure dogmatism. The internal vs external some may say (as in the last link I am providing) it's meaningless. I am saying that maybe but maybe not. Why? Because external styles owe Buddhism (Fire Yang) to a larger extent than Daoism has accomplished in that area (Water Yin). Daoism is the Indigenous philosophy/religion of China and is the result of the DDJing'a approach to life (be like water). However water Daoism internal arts also incorporate yang concept in its fighting because as I said Yin & Yang are a twin single concept. But later on in their lifes internal artists must become more Yang to balance Yin excesses.

I hope I have explained myself.

His martial arts experience ?Zero

I owe most of my Qigong training (in written form) to master Yang, Jwing-Ming:

http://www.ymaaschool.com/about/about.php

Take care,


:)

[soggycat]

Gerard,
As much as I appreciate your vast readings in Taoist, Buddhist and Confucianist works, I’m curious as to your actual Martial Arts Practice.
Specifically how many years of Martials arts training do you have , and also how many years in External Arts and Internal Arts?

I’m aware of your Qigong practice from previous postings.

Again you keep saying EMA is Yang in nature whereas IMA are Yin in nature .

No
No
No
:bang:
I don’t care how many websites you can pull up to support that statement, but that is a misunderstanding of basic IMA principles.

This is a gross misconception propagated by academic based Chinese and Caucasian writers , many of whom are non martial arts practitioners, but love to speculate from their armchairs.

Both EMA and IMA contain Yin and Yang natures/aspects.
For instance, In Bagua I can attack with a Yin technique or with Yang technique.
I can strike with a Yin hand or Yang hand.
If I thrust, that’s Yang, if I turn and evade, that’s Yin.

So how can you say Bagua is Yin nature only ?

I'll agree with you that EMA was developed primarily by Buddhist Shaolin, while IMA was developed by Wudang Taoist.
But we must remember there are also many non Shaolin EMAs like Tong Bei, Piqua, Tan Tui, Baji.
And then there are the many Shaolin styles that were modified by Taoist thought eg. Wing Chun
( Shaolin Nun Ng Mei sought refugee at White Crane temple, which is Taoist, and incorporated Taoist techniques into Wing Chun)

And to reiterate, anyone who has done years of IMA and subsequently decides to pursue EMA is doing the wrong thing.
( It’s OK if you just want to check it out for a while and satisfy your curiosity)

As my Taoist teacher says:
From External we move to Internal, from Internal we move to Emptiness
:cool:

[gerard]

Gerard,
As much as I appreciate your vast readings in Taoist, Buddhist and Confucianist works, I’m curious as to your actual Martial Arts Practice.
Specifically how many years of Martials arts training do you have , and also how many years in External Arts and Internal Arts?

I’m aware of your Qigong practice from previous postings.

.

No
No
No
:bang:
I don’t care how many websites you can pull up to support that statement, but that is a misunderstanding of basic IMA principles.

This is a gross misconception propagated by academic based Chinese and Caucasian writers , many of whom are non martial arts practitioners, but love to speculate from their armchairs.

Both EMA and IMA contain Yin and Yang natures/aspects.
For instance, In Bagua I can attack with a Yin technique or with Yang technique.
I can strike with a Yin hand or Yang hand.
If I thrust, that’s Yang, if I turn and evade, that’s Yin.

So how can you say Bagua is Yin nature only ?

I'll agree with you that EMA was developed primarily by Buddhist Shaolin, while IMA was developed by Wudang Taoist.
But we must remember there are also many non Shaolin EMAs like Tong Bei, Piqua, Tan Tui, Baji.
And then there are the many Shaolin styles that were modified by Taoist thought eg. Wing Chun
( Shaolin Nun Ng Mei sought refugee at White Crane temple, which is Taoist, and incorporated Taoist techniques into Wing Chun)

And to reiterate, anyone who has done years of IMA and subsequently decides to pursue EMA is doing the wrong thing.
( It’s OK if you just want to check it out for a while and satisfy your curiosity)

As my Taoist teacher says:
From External we move to Internal, from Internal we move to Emptiness
:cool:


I give up arguing with you. Each to its own. I was heavily involved with IMA in one of my previous lives before being sent to the sinbin :D (lower astral realm). In this life, my spirit is naturally attracted to all this martial arts stuff but I have to finish what I couldn't before. Please don't think this is an ego driven post. I am just answering to your main question.

Take care :)

[cloudz]

[QUOTE=soggycat]
This is a gross misconception propagated by academic based Chinese and Caucasian writers , many of whom are non martial arts practitioners, but love to speculate from their armchairs.

Quite likely, I think martial arts are a more efficient teacher, as they were born from our need to satisfy our survival instinct in accordance with nature.

Both EMA and IMA contain Yin and Yang natures/aspects.
For instance, In Bagua I can attack with a Yin technique or with Yang technique.
I can strike with a Yin hand or Yang hand.
If I thrust, that’s Yang, if I turn and evade, that’s Yin.

So how can you say Bagua is Yin nature only ?

I agree about this


And to reiterate, anyone who has done years of IMA and subsequently decides to pursue EMA is doing the wrong thing.
( It’s OK if you just want to check it out for a while and satisfy your curiosity)

I'd agree, as it just wouldn't make sense. It is very hard to imagine a martial artist who has discovered internal principles, abandoning them. I wouldn't say it is the wrong thing, maybe at that point they may think it is as far as they can go down that road - for whatever reason.

As my Taoist teacher says:
From External we move to Internal, from Internal we move to Emptiness

This does make a lot of sense to me.

We are born from emptiness, through our infancy and early childhood we are internal in nature. As our conciousness take a grip we become more external in nature. From external there is nowhere left to go except back along this path. In the natural course of our life we would experience this in old age and our death. Are we merely getting a jump on this process?

With the possibility it could lead us to great wonders, in our lifetime.

Regards
geo

[soggycat]

I give up arguing with you. Each to its own. I was heavily involved with IMA in one of my previous lives before being sent to the sinbin :D (lower astral realm). In this life, my spirit is naturally attracted to all this martial arts stuff but I have to finish what I couldn't before. Please don't think this is an ego driven post. I am just answering to your main question.

Take care :)

OK Gerard, I accept what you say about your IMA experience in prvious lives, but are you saying that in this present life, you have not ever practised any Internal Martial arts then ? No I'm not think its an ego driven post. :)

[gerard]

OK Gerard, I accept what you say about your IMA experience in prvious lives, but are you saying that in this present life, you have not ever practised any Internal Martial arts then ? No I'm not think its an ego driven post. :)


Not to the level I did 100 years ago. I have been training Chen style Taiji but I got bored of my teacher focusing on the form. No wonder why I was overtrained. He approached the art from an EMA perspective. And this learned from Chen XiaoWang's lineage!

I got sick of it. Today I do qigong and still sitting meditation. Hopefully one day the master finds me.

[Shadowdh]

Not to the level I did 100 years ago. I have been training Chen style Taiji but I got bored of my teacher focusing on the form. No wonder why I was overtrained. He approached the art from an EMA perspective. And this learned from Chen XiaoWang's lineage!

I got sick of it. Today I do qigong and still sitting meditation. Hopefully one day the master finds me.


If you just sit/stand meditating the true/real master will not find you... it requires some effort on your behalf... tbh it sounds as if you couldnt grasp what was being taught you or you werent being told the forms etc were some sort of magic or mystical thing that fits in with you beliefs thus you chose to disregard it... I practice Chen style taiji via the Chen Qing Zhou lineage but have had lessons from a person in the Chen Xiao Wang lineage and I found the explainations regarding movement and Qi etc to be excellent and really helped with my form.. but it is all practical and pragmatic...

Apart from the previous lives thing... I agree with Soggycat here... for someone very much espousing the internal search you seem bent on seeking the external influence...

[gerard]

If you just sit/stand meditating the true/real master will not find you... it requires some effort on your behalf...

Nope. Wu wei (doing by not doing). Flow with the current and it take you where you were meant to go. I struggled too much in the past and I am still here on the same spot. Today I struggle less and things come easy. Going far means returning (DDJing). I suggest you to review (or read if that's the case) the DDJing (Tao Te Ching) calmly and profoundly. ;)

tbh it sounds as if you couldnt grasp what was being taught you or you werent being told the forms etc were some sort of magic or mystical thing that fits in with you beliefs thus you chose to disregard it...

Are you a wizard's apprentice? Because if you are you should study harder
:D

You are wrong again. My teacher loved too much Shaolin Chin Na. How do you explain an internal teacher teaching that stuff too me a guy who has been training Taiji for less than 5 years? Chin Na is excellent stuff once you need to balance internal with external. My ex-teacher couldn't teach me basic joint relaxation and body mechanics applied to internal training.


I practice Chen style taiji via the Chen Qing Zhou lineage but have had lessons from a person in the Chen Xiao Wang lineage and I found the explainations regarding movement and Qi etc to be excellent and really helped with my form.. but it is all practical and pragmatic...

My teacher is not a clone of that person. I can assure you that.

Apart from the previous lives thing... I agree with Soggycat here... for someone very much espousing the internal search you seem bent on seeking the external influence...
WHAT THE...


Danger. Strange influence detected. Danger.


Can I ask you something?

Are you an :Alien: ?

:D

[Shadowdh]

If I was would it validate my opinions to you more...??