Eagle Hapkido in Toronto, Canada.

[Joseph5]

Hello Guys, I just moved to the danforth here in Toronto, Ontario. There is a hapkido school near my house that teaches Hapkido. The name of the dojo is eagle hapkido. I don't really know what to expect from a "good" hapkido school, and was wondering if any of you heard of this place on the danforth. If you have, what exactly have you heard about it?

Thanks for your time.

Joseph

[austinso]

Hello Guys, I just moved to the danforth here in Toronto, Ontario. There is a hapkido school near my house that teaches Hapkido. The name of the dojo is eagle hapkido. I don't really know what to expect from a "good" hapkido school, and was wondering if any of you heard of this place on the danforth. If you have, what exactly have you heard about it?


I think you should go there and tell us what you see and what you think.

Wednesday would be the best time to drop by...maybe around 7:30-8:00 pm...

[Thomas]

I think you should go there and tell us what you see and what you think.

Wednesday would be the best time to drop by...maybe around 7:30-8:00 pm...
That's some really good advice! I know where I would be on Wednesday at 7:20!

Hello Guys, I just moved to the danforth here in Toronto, Ontario. There is a hapkido school near my house that teaches Hapkido. The name of the dojo is eagle hapkido. I don't really know what to expect from a "good" hapkido school, and was wondering if any of you heard of this place on the danforth. If you have, what exactly have you heard about it?
I don't know the school but I would recommend checking it out. Take a look at this thread (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5506) and read the original post and the discussion that follows for some ideas of what to look for. Let us know how it goes.

[Danjun]

eagle hapkido is the dojang of gm hwang in-shik. it's a true hapkido school. gm hwang was in numerous m.a. movies - check him out in "young master" with jackie chan. the 15 min. fight at the end is the longest hapkido sequence in a large movie. you'll also be able to see gm hwang's amazing kicking prowess. gm hwang is a direct student of ji han jae. my understanding is that he no longer personally teaches but i'm not sure. anyway, check them out - i'd be surprised if you are disappointed.

[Joseph5]

No Danjun, I'm not kidding. Just new to TMA'S and kinda iffy about their affectiveness in Self - Defense situations. Having said that, I really don't know much about Hapkido - I.E. Do they spar? If so, how exactly? Is it TKD with joint locks?, etc. I've been pretty busy with work this week, but have made time this coming Monday to stop by the school and check it out. It's been my experience, however, that word of mouth is often a more reliable source of finding a good school than speaking with an instructor about a martial art one knows little about. Kinda puts one at a disadvantage, if you know what I mean. This is why I decided to post my question. Thanks for your reply.

[austinso]

Hapkido - I.E. Do they spar? If so, how exactly?
Depends on the school. Eagle Hapkido? Yes. Full-contact minimal protection.
Is it TKD with joint locks?, etc. I've been pretty busy with work this week, but have made time this coming Monday to stop by the school and check it out.
Monday is as good a time as any...observe and then decide for yourself if it is club that is suitable for you and your goals.
It's been my experience, however, that word of mouth is often a more reliable source of finding a good school than speaking with an instructor about a martial art one knows little about.
In case you haven't noticed, it is not advertised, you can't notice the sign unless you walk by it, and it is in a non-descript basement.

[Danjun]

i have never been to that dojang but unless someone tells me otherwise, i would think that eagle hapkido dojang is one of the best (if not THE best) places to train/learn traditional hapkido in canada.

as for hapkido's effectiveness in self defense, gm hwang is of the generation when they regularly proved themselves and hapkido in "real life" situations.

check them out and consider yourself lucky that you have access to gm hwang's dojang.

[Eddie1958]

There is another Hapkido club that teaches true Hapkido and the name is East West Hapkido. It is in the King and Bathurst area, the address is 577 King St phone number 416 595 0617.Once you check out Eagle Hapkido and East West Hapkido, you would have the information to make a good decision. If you have any questions just drop a message or if you have MSN messenger let me know what your handle is.

Good luck
Eddie

[Juego Todo]

One ride on the TTC practically connects you to both dojangs. A short walk west from GM Hwang's (last spoke with him in his curtained-off office two yrs ago; was still teaching then; looks like Yip Man :) ), closer to Jones, takes you to Broadview Station. From there, just hop on the 504 streetcar that goes along King St. W.

Almost 30 mins. later (give or take a few), if memory still serves me correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong; it has been a while), East-West should just be a couple of doors away from For Your Eyes Only strip-club (not that I've ever visited while in T.O.!!!). You should see the club & the dojang on your left side and just get off either before or after you see it coming up.

FYI, there is also a relocated White Tiger BJJ gym (Marcus Soares affiliation) on the right/north side of King, down a short alley-like lane, just a few blocks away from the Hapkido dojang. Further west, just after Shaw/before Dufferin, is a Goju-ryu dojo in a commercial bldg on the left/south side of King. Eggerton Marcus' boxing gym is also around Lamport Stadium; he's making a comeback at 40. If you're open to other styles, these are a few things that could make your trip along the 504 interesting.

GM Hwang is a living legend & his senior students have a reputation for being tough, capable security at local nightclubs, etc. Don't expect anything fancy; its unfinished-white-basement-look (the last time I was there, anyway) hides the lethality of the art being practiced within. There are no special decorations; no special traditional HKD doboks; just sabumnims & students training in simplistic white t-shirts & white dobok pants; that's it. Think of it like in boxing: where do you think that you'll get to taste the true art? In a fancy-shmancy health spa that caters to executives? Or in a more run-down, basic type of gym where there is nothing extraneous other than the smell of sweat & hard effort?

East-West trains hard, too, from what I've heard. You can't go wrong at either one, regardless of where you eventually choose to join.

Happy trails to you...

[Thomas]

What a great, well thought-out and useful post! Thanks

[wazzabi]

i checked out Eagle Hapkido, but didn't see too much of the class since i got lost and wasted alot of time looking for the dojang. lol. i was impressed with what i saw, and with what Grandmaster Hwang had told me. there's a good chance that i will be attending this dojang soon. :D

[Mista-X]

I've heard nothing but excellent things about this place and I live like right down the street.

Does anyone know if they have youth classes, like for 5 and seven year olds?

Thanks.

[Mista-X]

Hey all.

Just thought I'de let you all know I dropped by with my son after dinner near by to check it out, just after 6:30 PM.

I met the master himself, and was very impressed, despite the fact I left a phone message and e-mail with no response. He informed me that they no longer teach children, but from what I saw the adults doing it looked good. Can't say more because I only observed for about 20 minutes, but all the students seemed very dsciplined and serious, and the master certainly commands respect... everyone calls him sir. He does seem to talk a lot when teaching class, and had some interesting things to say. He talked about mcdojos giving away yellow belts in two months, and a black belt in one year if you bring two friends. You could tell this guy doesn't just give away ranks. He was talking about how students who don't work hard, take it seriously, etc. shouldn't bother to come. I saw him do some impressive bench pressing and challenged a bigger student to pick him up, which he couldn't.

Just thought I would share.

[JimH]

The best way to decide is to watch a class,as done,then take a introductory class or two to help you decide if it is for you.

I do not understand why a Hapkido school would speak of McDojo,unless they teach Tae Kwon Do,I have never heard the term Mc Dojo applied to Hapkido.

An instructor speaking alot is not uncommon,especially when they have visitors as they must use those few minutes they have the person there to make an impression to get you to come back and then hook you inrto being a paying student.

I do not know what bench pressing has to do with teaching class,but I know that Tiger Kim ,(of the Bronx ,New York),would do a similar demo ,just not during the class.

The immovable man is a demo found in many Aikido and Tai chi schools,to show the power of internal Ki/Chi energy,again it is a demo to impress the new potential student.

Again,if interested take a trial class or two,see if it fits your needs.
Talk to other students see if they are happy with the instruction,are they happy with contracts(if the school uses them)

A few questions I would ask the Instructor and the other students:

How long has the Instructor been teaching?
If he/she has been around a while is the school all lower belts?
If so that maybe a sign that no one stays around for some reason.

If the instructor has been around a while does he have many Black Belts,2nd,3rd and 4th degrees?

Are there senior belts or a few Black Belts who participate in the classes?
If so what is their instruction like?
Are they allowed to help teach?
Do the other students like their method of instruction?

In the end the choice of joining or not is up to the person/potential student,weigh the facts of what is taught and what you want from your training.

Good Luck

[Dr.Syn]

That's some really good advice! I know where I would be on Wednesday at 7:20!


I don't know the school but I would recommend checking it out. Take a look at this thread (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5506) and read the original post and the discussion that follows for some ideas of what to look for. Let us know how it goes.

Darn you, I wanted to say that....

[Thomas]

:cool:
Heh heh heh

[Dr.Syn]

Ha-Ha on me...This having to work crap really cuts into my time here...LOL

[Mudo]

eagle hapkido is the dojang of gm hwang in-shik. it's a true hapkido school. gm hwang was in numerous m.a. movies - check him out in "young master" with jackie chan. the 15 min. fight at the end is the longest hapkido sequence in a large movie. you'll also be able to see gm hwang's amazing kicking prowess. gm hwang is a direct student of ji han jae. my understanding is that he no longer personally teaches but i'm not sure. anyway, check them out - i'd be surprised if you are disappointed.

Aha, I had to find this again. I read this a couple days ago, and wouldn't you know, today my instructor brought in a video saying it was of his old instructor, and it was Young Master. I loved the part of that fight scene where any time Jackie Chan would grab, he would put him in a different arm lock, heh.

[austinso]

Aha, I had to find this again. I read this a couple days ago, and wouldn't you know, today my instructor brought in a video saying it was of his old instructor, and it was Young Master. I loved the part of that fight scene where any time Jackie Chan would grab, he would put him in a different arm lock, heh.

Out of curiosity, who is your instructor?

Austin

[wazzabi]

i had to buy the dvd just to watch it. i'm one of Master Hwang's white belts by the way :) .

[Mudo]

Out of curiosity, who is your instructor?

Austin

Ian Gibbs, No-Nonsense Martial Arts. The training is more of a street-wise aspect

[skitzo]

You guys in the GTA know of a Hapkido school out in the Guelph area? I can't find anything

[eagleeyes]

don't waste your time there. I been there, done that. Master Hwang is very knowledgeful, but a crappy teacher to be quite honest.
I thought initially he was eager to teach. I tried to practice diligently, be obedient and respectful... but in the end, I got very very little, and in fact injured.

My advice, forget this joker and save your money. Keep looking for a better teache.
peace.

[eagleeyes]

Don't waste your time at Eagle Hapkido. Not everything is what it seems on the surface. I've been there and was excited initially, until you get the sense that there's something else going on under the surface.
I know your post has been up for a while, but I am new to this site. Just wanted to let you know form my experience to not waste your time and money on this joker. He seems to be eager to teach, but nothing could be further from the truth. He is very knowledgeful, yes. But that does not make a good teacher necessarily, and certainly in his case this is true.
Once again, don't waste your time. Keep looking for a good teacher and a good school. You can find both, just not there.

[estranged13]

I've heard nothing but excellent things about this place and I live like right down the street.

Does anyone know if they have youth classes, like for 5 and seven year olds?

Thanks.

Hapkido isn't something for kids dude the jointlocks should only be done on adults. Their body isn't devoped yet

[MJR]

don't waste your time there. I been there, done that. Master Hwang is very knowledgeful, but a crappy teacher to be quite honest.
I thought initially he was eager to teach. I tried to practice diligently, be obedient and respectful... but in the end, I got very very little, and in fact injured.

My advice, forget this joker and save your money. Keep looking for a better teache.
peace.


Everyone has their own experience and I respect that. I can also understand that not everyone will leave Master Hwang In-Shik's school with a positive experience.

Worthy of less respect is using terms like 'joker' to refer to a teacher of very high standing, not posting under the their real name and, in fact, only setting up a alias for what seems to be that expressed purpose to insulting someone from under cover. "Eagleeye" posted only twice and essentially the same post. I am sure that this was not indicative of this person at their best.

However I don't disregard their feelings or their experience. I would like to contrast this experience with those of others too though.

I started training under Master Hwang in 1986 I remained training there for many years, decades in fact. There are some fellows who have recently returned to training there at Eagle hapkido who were in fact my seniors at that time. Something must be there that keeps fellows with a teacher for so long.

After training with Master Hwang I went to train in Korea and could hold my own with any I met there. In fact I was often asked to teach his approach to much higher graded teachers. After spending a few years in both Korea and Japan I can honestly say that I never encountered a teacher with a greater technical or conceptual ability than Master Hwang. I met many great teachers including people who had trained directly under Jigaro Kano, Morihei Ueshiba and Takeda Tokimune. That Master Hwang's experience and facility was of the same level as these men was clear to me. They were great and so was he.

He is however not an easy person. He isn't impartial to all and treat all equally. He isn't willing to give up his knowledge to people he doesn't know, trust or like and it does take time to get these things at that school. But if you are able to earn these things people have been able to do great things with them. His students have definitely earned respect in the martial arts community and counted among them are highly respected fighters. The current head of the World Hapkido Federation was a student of Master Hwang's when he taught classes for hapkido teachers at the Korea Hapkido Association headquarters in Seoul. I found that I could train virtually anywhere in Seoul just by mentioning his name.

Also his school is not a great place for someone who isn't much of a self starter. The classes confer only the broadest basics and one is expected to train hard on their own after class and with partners. Those that are training hard will be 'thrown a bone' and those who wait for someone to show them what to do will be left to wait.

This is not something that many North Americans are used to but I've seen the same with many highly sought after Asian teachers. A kendo teacher will pass you the shinai and show you the most basic strike and leave you in a corner to practise and see what you do. He'll then watch you without obviously doing so, if you start pumping out the reps, trying to explore what he is given you, you may be given something more in the way of instruction, after a half hour. If you practise for 5 or 10 minutes and then stop and wait for instruction he has already formed his opinion of what kind of student you are and it will be hard to get him to change that impression.

Eagle Hapkido is not the best place for everybody but it has proven to be quite good for some over the years.

I am sorry that you had a bad experience there.

[iron_ox]

Everyone has their own experience and I respect that. I can also understand that not everyone will leave Master Hwang In-Shik's school with a positive experience.

Worthy of less respect is using terms like 'joker' to refer to a teacher of very high standing, not posting under the their real name and, in fact, only setting up a alias for what seems to be that expressed purpose to insulting someone from under cover. "Eagleeye" posted only twice and essentially the same post. I am sure that this was not indicative of this person at their best.

However I don't disregard their feelings or their experience. I would like to contrast this experience with those of others too though.

I started training under Master Hwang in 1986 I remained training there for many years, decades in fact. There are some fellows who have recently returned to training there at Eagle hapkido who were in fact my seniors at that time. Something must be there that keeps fellows with a teacher for so long.

After training with Master Hwang I went to train in Korea and could hold my own with any I met there. In fact I was often asked to teach his approach to much higher graded teachers. After spending a few years in both Korea and Japan I can honestly say that I never encountered a teacher with a greater technical or conceptual ability than Master Hwang. I met many great teachers including people who had trained directly under Jigaro Kano, Morihei Ueshiba and Takeda Tokimune. That Master Hwang's experience and facility was of the same level as these men was clear to me. They were great and so was he.

He is however not an easy person. He isn't impartial to all and treat all equally. He isn't willing to give up his knowledge to people he doesn't know, trust or like and it does take time to get these things at that school. But if you are able to earn these things people have been able to do great things with them. His students have definitely earned respect in the martial arts community and counted among them are highly respected fighters. The current head of the World Hapkido Federation was a student of Master Hwang's when he taught classes for hapkido teachers at the Korea Hapkido Association headquarters in Seoul. I found that I could train virtually anywhere in Seoul just by mentioning his name.

Also his school is not a great place for someone who isn't much of a self starter. The classes confer only the broadest basics and one is expected to train hard on their own after class and with partners. Those that are training hard will be 'thrown a bone' and those who wait for someone to show them what to do will be left to wait.

This is not something that many North Americans are used to but I've seen the same with many highly sought after Asian teachers. A kendo teacher will pass you the shinai and show you the most basic strike and leave you in a corner to practise and see what you do. He'll then watch you without obviously doing so, if you start pumping out the reps, trying to explore what he is given you, you may be given something more in the way of instruction, after a half hour. If you practise for 5 or 10 minutes and then stop and wait for instruction he has already formed his opinion of what kind of student you are and it will be hard to get him to change that impression.

Eagle Hapkido is not the best place for everybody but it has proven to be quite good for some over the years.

I am sorry that you had a bad experience there.

Hello all,

I don't have a horse in this race, but what a well thought out response. Certainly one of the best I have read.

[eagleeyes]

The first two posts I put up were in response to Joseph5 and Wazzabi. I just forgot to post their quotes so you would know who my post referred to. But that doesn't matter now.

You are right MJR, everyone does have their experience, and this is mine.

When I first set foot in Master Hwangs club in the early nineties, I met him in his office where we talked for a bit. He tried to explain to me the difference between his school of HapKiDo, and other phony schools. I understood what he was trying to say. He also fairly early in the conversation told me that he was a Christian and furthermore, a deacon in his church. He said, "If you train here, I will take care of you", and "all my students are good guys." I must say that I left with a good feeling and was eager to start my Hapkido training. M.Hwang seemed to be kind, friendly, and eager to keep his word and teach. After all, he was a good Christian. But nothing could have been further from the truth.

After I got injured there (my back), only then I started talking with other former students and what I found was that they ALL in fact had a bad experience of one kind or other. I found that others too were lied to like I was. For example, when I made the grade for the next belt level (from white to yellow), a senior belt immediately approached me and informed me that I now had to pay M. Hwang $100 extra. The fact that they were smirking and gloating when they asked me, prompted me to ask if this was standard for everyone because I had not been told of this previously. They told me it was and insisted that I pay. Out of respect, I did. Later, I inquired with other students who told me that they were NOT asked to pay anything at all extra from the standard fee when they went up a belt. There were some who did (like myself), and some who didn't. This started raising my brow. The words Con-man comes to mind.

When I asked the opinion of certain African/American students, they told me as well that they too felt discriminated against on many occassions, and in fact, a few said that they strongly sensed that M. Hwang was a racist and didn't really like black people. This further confirmed my suspicions that something funny is going on in this school, and it's not just me. Some characters that he will take on and teach, many know, have either criminal records or are known to the police as deviants and trouble makers. One of these characters was asked one day by M. Hwang to show me a few things. When I just stood there and put my trust in him (after all, there are "good guys"), it resulted in an injury to my back that has stayed with me and will stay with me for the rest of my life, and does not permit me to train martial arts anymore. I guess that's what he meant by "take care of you." What a good Christian. I can feel the love.
I later got the sense that it was deliberate, and that M. Hwang actually sent him to injure me. For what reason I don't know, but I do know today that it was deliberate. Again, my experience is shared by many from what I understand, and I could not believe that what seemed to be such a good school, and such a charming teacher (and self-professed good Christian), would stoop so low and send some coward of a kid to do something like this to me. What a cowardly act that served no purpose other than for his own amusement and pleasure. The word sadist comes to mind.

MJR mentioned that if you train hard with what you are given, you will be given more attention, but this is NOT true. There were some days that I believe I trained as hard as physically possible and still got nothing more from him, if anything at all on some days. There were days where M. Hwang wasn't even present, instead it was left up to his second, Young Ho, who's arrogant disposition (as observed by many), is not ideal for teaching anything, and who has some personal issues of his own. What do you think happens to a student who starts off with much hope and gets the sense that they are being neglected? They will get demoralized pretty quickly, that's what, and lose interest in a short while. It is known by many that M. Hwang has only ever made eight (that's 8), black belts in his decades of teaching. Does that tell anyone that he loves to work or teach? I would say NO. And judging from my personal experience, definately not. But he comes across initially that he does. This duality is what is not "worthy of respect." (as MJR put it)

JimH made some good points on his post. He mentioned " the best way to know is to watch a class" and see what you see. This is true, but I would say observe more than one class on more than one occassion. Because I am sure a clever teacher like M. Hwang is will show you his best initially, but if you only could have seen what I have then you would understand why I am writing this. Also, JimH writes: "check if there are only lower belts around, it could mean that no one stays around". This is absolutely true at that school. I write this knowing that I speak for the great majority who went there and did not return for one reason or other. One more thing to consider is the condition of the school itself. First it is in a dungeon of a basement which is curiously dark. And secondly, be careful of that old, bacteria-ridden carpet that several people, that I know of personally, got a serious foot infection from. This is what you are paying for folks. He gives you very little, but how he knows how to take your money. To use the word "joker" is only fitting and appropriate under the circumstances.

Many know of these things I speak, but are too afraid to speak out for obvious reasons. I am not writing this to deliberately insult M. Hwang, or to put down Hapkido. I am writing so that others like Mr. Sogor will understand wher I am coming from. That my concern is real and a pracitcal one. I am writing this for the benefit of people like Joseph5, Wazzabi, Danjun, and Austinso, whose brief posts remind me of me back then when I had a zeal for hapkido. I admire their enthusiasm and thirst for knowledge but, as usual, the paying consumer must be vigilante. So guys BE CAREFUL. Not everything is what it seems to be on the surface. If my post can stop one more from being seriously injured, conned, taken advantage of, or fooled, then it was not in vain.

There is no doubt in my mind that M. Hwang is a very talented man. His knowledge of Hapkido is second to none. I know he is respected and famous in certain areas of the Orient, specifically Korea. However, he is also infamous in certain regions as well. That is the part that some can't tell you, or, if they know, don't want to. But it is the fact of the matter. And anyone having great and extensive knowledge of any subject matter does not necessarily a good teacher make. MJR put it best himself when he said, "He (M.Hwang) is not easy to get along with." So, if he's NOT EASY, that must mean that he IS UN-EASY. This is exactly what I am talking about and it would perfectly explain his fickle nature. At times wanting to teach, and at most other times not. Showing some students favoritism, and others using to his advantage. To think back to the first day when I was led to believe what a good Chrisitian he was, and Christians are bound by faith to "Love your neighbour as yourself", well I can't say I ever felt much love there. But in being candid and honest with others on this site, that is showing more care, concern, and yes love, to my fellow man than M. Hwang and others at his school have shown me. It is clear that M. Hwang has some issues of his own and has not yet found his Nirvana in the scriptures, but I still hope he finds the stability and contentment he seeks (that we all seek), but just not at the expense of other peoples dignity and physical health. This is not the way to go. This is not the path of a Chrisitian, or the Zen path, if you will.

MJR was right when he said that eagle hapkido is not for everyone, and apparently not for many at all from what I have seen myself, and the many that I have conversed with. And those few who find favor from M. Hwang, you need only look at their character and lifestyle to tell you something of the character of their teacher. You have made a mockery of hapkido. Shame on you M. Hwang. Shame on you all.

I'll let that God that you claim to believe in, be your judge; "As you sow, so shall you reap."

Peace to all.

P.S. You were right about one more thing MJR, that last post was not "indicative of my best"

[MJR]

Once again I am sorry that you had such a bad experience.

Your last e-mail is of course a pretty direct personal attack upon my teacher and upon my school. You accuse him of not wanting to teach, of sending someone out to personally attack you and hurt your back (for what reason we don't know), of teaching criminals and deviants, of giving out grade too slowly, of charging you for it (Which is true and was always true in my time there. But grade is given out slowly enough it certainly isn't much of an economic issue.), of not coming up to your standards as a Christian. That's lot on the plate.

I won't even bother to grace most of it.

I will say this though. I am one of the fellows who got their blackbelts and was there in the early 1990s as was Austin (who also uses his real name when he posts), but I'm thinking you trained later as Young-ho wasn't a senior then.

People will see very few high grades in Master Hwang's school as they will see very few high grades in BJJ schools which have a similarly tough grading procedure. It certainly isn't because people don't hang around. People come and people go as in any school but there is a core of hard training people who dedicate themselves and stick to training.

About a year ago Cortney Campbell, an African Canadian who was also there when you were there (and before), was awarded his blackbelt. Although he took a few years off of training he's been there for a good 15+ years of training. Primarily interested in improving his fighting skills for a long time he never really pursued rank or practised the upper level techniques required to gain it. Some people don't need rank to feel good about themselves.

I'm not sure how many people who were in there last week have been there more than 8 or 10 years but the number is quite high. Gus recently returned to training who was my senior when I joined the school. That was in 1986. So it is not like people don't stay and find worth in something that you did not.

I joined the club because it was rough. I wanted to learn real fighting skills. I walked into the school and saw Gus back kick a fellow off his feet up into the air and land on his keister. The fellow (Dean, I believe) jumped up and went straight back into the fray. I liked the fact that in the era of sport karate they were fighting with heavy contact and allowing for the different ranges of fighting, striking standing grappling and throwing, groundfighting with minimal rules. I didn't go there to be 'safe'. I'd have been a fool to. I have eyes. I thought "I'm scared of these guys! This where I should join!"

I had injuries there, but fewer than the judo players and far fewer than the football players I know in the amount of time I spent there. Heck, you can't even play football for that many years!

I don't dispute the fact that you feel you had a bad experience there and feel badly done by. You obviously feel this to be true. Nothing I say or do is going to change that, so I won't try. I'll just point out the fact that many have had different experiences to your own.

As for anonymous personal attacks on the internet I can't help but feel that you could have couched your feelings and shared your experience in a fashion that is much worthier of yourself and the kind of person we all aspire to be, be we Christians or otherwise.

[austinso]

Hmmm...all I can say that I have had nothing but the best experience with Master Hwang and his school. I first started training at his school in the early/mid 1990s, and moved from Toronto about 9 years ago. I continue to receive training tips from his school from my seniors and former juniors who are now my seniors when I visit, and have never felt unwelcome. And when I train, people always want to know where I learned to kick or punch or move.

The training and work ethic is intense and sorely missed. Sure it stank. Sure it was grungy. But no one cared because all we were interested in was training.

And yes I have gotten injured. I had a cracked skull from a roundhouse kick. I had a shin bruise that caused my whole leg to swell up. And I had one of my testicles hit so hard that I had to go to the hospital to get it checked out (I still don't know if it "works"...but two kids later it certainly ain't broke). When I dropped by 3 years ago, I tore my ankle apart, after I got thrown around like a ragdoll. But it was all part of the learning process. I don't blame anyone...least of all Master Hwang.

Like Matt says, the school is not for everyone...and clearly it wasn't for you.

Austin

P.S. Hey are you the numbnut who liked to go in front of City Hall and call for the death penalty for homosexuals? Are you *still* trying to overcompensate for your latent homosexuality? I always thought you were a bit "off"...not that there's anything wrong with it...

[shadow warrior]

Speaking as the ONLY black belt from Master Hwang's school who has run their own Eagle Hapkido school under him; (entertained Master Hwang and his wife for dinner and family [minister included] at my cottage); (organized seminars for him, travelled with him); I got to know the man and his school very well and I am in a unique position to say that Master Hwang is a "one of a kind".

I have been in direct competition with his school from the day we signed our business agreement in 1990, through the separation of our partnership until today.

He taught me countless Hapkido skills which helped to keep me alive through the last couple of years I was active in the investigation business. In addition (by using his own students as examples), he helped me to further understand the differences between and how to recognize leaders and followers. I try to pass these skills onto my students and Black Belts.

As much as some people would like to control the opinions of former students of Eagle Hapkido they should be free to express their experiences in whatever way they feel is appropriate. All I can do is listen to them if they approach me and determine if they are the type of student I want at my school.

Over the years I have accepted about half of those former students who have expressed an interest in training at my school. Their stories for leaving that school are as varied as the students themselves.

The bottom line is:

NO martial arts school is for EVERYONE!

SOME martial arts schools are for a FEW!

Nothing more, nothing less!

My personal experiences at Eagle Hapkido were related to professional development and not relavent to the general student of that school.

The thing which I do find quite strange however, is a person defending one school as THE BEST while running their own school interests and sending their own son to third school (complete with a testimonial signed as an assistant instructor of the first school). This is a proven business tactic which is designed to generate business for the third school which is in direct competition with the first school they are defending. Now that is funny!

If the first school has the best teacher known and is therefore the greatest school on the face of the planet what gives? The irony is priceless.

Business is business and people usually get fired for that type of behavior.

Keith Stewart
Head Instructor
East West Hapkido
www.eastwesthapkido.com

[austinso]

Do you really need to take personal swipes when they are uncalled for, Keith?

I was training there when you were affiliated with Master Hwang, so there a few things I remember (e.g. did you mention to anyone how many students stayed with you after you broke off from Eagle Hapkido?).

No one here is trying to control people's opinions...but when people resort to slander (even veiled), that kinda steps over a line, don't you think?

Or is that "business is business" for you?

Austin

[MJR]

The thing which I do find quite strange however, is a person defending one school as THE BEST while running their own school interests and sending their own son to third school (complete with a testimonial signed as an assistant instructor of the first school). [/url]

If you wish to say something about me then say it, Keith, and name it.

I am not personally in the martial arts business. I run a small training group of my own for my own convenience and train only a handful of fellows. I run it non-profit and receive nothing for doing so. I still keep in touch and train at Master Hwang's to keep touch with my teacher and show respect and workout with my old friends. I was teaching there today as a matter fact.

I don't recall saying my teacher's school was better than anyone else's in the post but perhaps you can read things that are not there. Master Hwang is the best teacher I have had and is equal in caliber to other higher ranked teachers whose technqies I have experienced. If you disagree with that go ahead but do it with your own words.

That you keep track of where I send my son to train I find creepy. Omar and Beverley Salvosa are people I have known for years and Omar is a very highly skilled Brazilian jiujitsu teacher under Marco Soares. My son goes there because they have a really wonderful methodology for teaching and a great atmosphere for children! Part of that is due to Omar BJJ skills part of it from the fact that Beverley is an elementary school teacher who understands teaching for this age group.

Master Hwang neither teaches nor has a kid's class at the moment. My son attended there in the past when they had one. He'll attend again in the future when he is older if it he has the opportunity.

As for conflicts and competition Master Hwang is simply not so insecure to care about such matters.

[wild_pitch]

I was training there when you were affiliated with Master Hwang, so there a few things I remember (e.g. did you mention to anyone how many students stayed with you after you broke off from Eagle Hapkido?).

i can not speak to this question directly as i joined the club shortly after the split, i CAN say however that we do presently have a number of students who left eagle for one reason or another.

[JRT]

The types of martial arts schools available are as diverse as the goals of those who get involved in martial arts and as such, each and every schhool is best suited to a specific type of student. I have been a student of Master Hwang's for the past 8 years and can agree that like all schools, Eagle is not for everyone, but it was for me. I recall my first teacher (prior to Master Hwang) advised me not to train with Master Hwang as it would only lead to injury. I remember being told that that type of training was not suitable for "these times". His rationale was that he had students that were lawyers "and they couldn't show up in court the next day with a black eye". I knew then that Eagle would be the school for me. I was interested in learning how to fight, not practice law. Perhaps eagleeyes is a lawyer, I don't know.

The only prejudice I have ever seen displayed by Master Hwang is to those who he believes is not giving %100 while there are training. I have been the object of this prejudice several times over the years. The good thing is this prejudice is shown on a daily basis. The days I work hard, He has worked with me, the days I am not, he does not work with me at all. When I "sweat" I have always been treated with fairness and respect. We have high ranking belts from all backgrounds, black, white, asian, indian, middle eastern, etc. In my 8 years I have had injuries here and there but I see Eagle students as athletes, and I know of no athlete in a sport for 8 years without injury.

Though I could, through the description of my experiences at Eagle, put forth an opposing argument to every point that eagleeyes has made, I won't bore anyone with that. The purpose of this post was to ensure that anyone who may be interested in Eagle does not lose that interest due to eagleeyes' post. It was obviously not for him, but it may be for you. The colored belts I have trained with over the years have become more than training partners (and there are many colored belts there). Hard training creates a unique bond, and Eagle is hard training.

If you want religion, go to church. If you want comfort, go to a spa. If you want constant encouragement and "go get'em tiger" speech everyday, go to your mom I suppose. I go to Eagle to learn hapkido from an excellent teacher, and when I go in and give %100 percent, that is what I get back from both Master Hwang and his seniors. Again, not saying its the best, but the best I have been to and it is not for everyone, but is for me and many others. I am sure there are shools out there that go as hard and harder then we do and there are students that were not happy at those schools either.

Concering shadowwarriors post, this is obviously a personal issue for you has no place in a public forum. I am quite sure MAP's members around the world are not terribly interested in where Mathew's kids are training. The intelligence and fairness of MJR's posts is the best reflection of his character and in my opinion do not need defending. I think we are probably boring readers when these posts spiral into personal attacks that no one except those involved will understand anyway.

Sincerely,
Jason Taylor

[KoreanWarrior]

I think that sparring without gear is stupid. You can get just as skilled using protective gear. From those east west videos its rather clear that the seniors like to hurt the junior belts. Even the UFC uses safety gear. When someone gets killed then that school will be closed and gone.

Everyone don't be fooled into thinking that the only way to get real skills is to do this bare knuckled crap. Blind leading the blind.
IMO

that's my ten cents

[wild_pitch]

I think that sparring without gear is stupid. You can get just as skilled using protective gear. From those east west videos its rather clear that the seniors like to hurt the junior belts. Even the UFC uses safety gear. When someone gets killed then that school will be closed and gone.

Everyone don't be fooled into thinking that the only way to get real skills is to do this bare knuckled crap. Blind leading the blind.

a. those are tests.

b. in 6-7 years the club has been open no one has been seriously hurt.

c. out belts are stuctured differently than most clubs so the yellow belts you see actually often have 2-3 years of training. i am orange and i have 4.5 years of training.

d. you can feel free to discuss my instructor's training and background with him before you make ignorant statement like, *the blind leading the blind.*

[Paul d]

Just an introduction…
I have been a student of Master Hwang's from way back in the early eighties and still train there. (Hello Matt & Austin) I am a person of colour, black, African decent, (whatever floats your boat,) and I have never found Master Hwang to be a racist in any way shape or form. I have been to his home numerous times, and shared meals with hime and his family, so your statement is a crock…

As far as you alluding to him being a con man… There have been times in my life when I was going through hard times and couldn’t afford to pay dues, so I stopped coming to the club. Master Hwang would call me at home and insist that I come back regardless of the money. I know first hand he has done this for others as well. If he were such a money grubbing con man, wouldn’t he have a million Black Belts and a large assortment of “multi-colour” belts, so he could collect all those testing fees? (BTW The testing fee has been in place since I joined way back when.) He does not advertise, hold tournaments, have trophy’s, special uniforms, fancy equipment, etc, to generate revenue. (No offence meant or judgment placed on any other clubs) And yes, he needs to pay his rent and feed his family, but he does this for the pure love of it, and obviously not for the money.

As far as being passed off to his seniors… Did you expect private lessons? It is a part of the learning process for both the senior and the junior, and Master Hwang always oversaw what was being shown. (Basics) It also helped in forming the friendships and bonds between students. In the old days we weren’t allowed to talk, and were given one thing to work on, and went of into a corner and sweated until you were given more. If you didn’t sweat you were sent home. (Much like the training mentioned in a post before) Things have changed over the years, but the core is still the same. It is a family. Train and sweat hard, and give 100% when you are there, and Master Hwang will do likewise.

The comment about checking belts to see who is still around. Many train without wearing their belts, and there are many there who have trained for years and have what would be considered lower ranking belts, but are quite skilled at their craft. So a very poor way of trying to measure the potential of a club. I have been to clubs where there have been a dozen Black Belts, all walking around like proud roosters. Very impressive looking to a newbie, but when it came down to actual training… None of them new what sweat was. ( No offense meant to those of you who are dedicated, and train with passion) This is not a belt oriented club, and has never been. Although it is an honour to receive a belt from Master Hwang, it is not the goal. We are there to learn, and once you have been there for a while, you quickly set you ego aside along with the need to compare, mark, and measure, and it becomes a personal journey.

Funny how it is so easy to blame the teacher. Perhaps the student needs to take a closer look at himself? IMHO Master Hwang’s teaching abilities and patience are in direct proportion to the effort and sweat of the student. He has really good eyes, and although you might not know it, he sees what you are doing, and how much effort you are putting into it.

I posted because I felt that people needed to know the facts when reading this, and the expectations placed upon Master Hwang by e…eyes were childish. I just wanted to add to what Matt and Austin had so eloquently articulated.

Paul

[shadow warrior]

The martial arts business has grown many times over in the thirty years I have been training in Hapkido. The number of schools and styles around seems to double every fews years, while the percentage of the population at large who train in martial arts remains about the same.
My point about competition is that, ANY person engaged in the training of people in martial arts are de facto in competition with ALL other people engaged in that activity. This situation has absolutely nothing to do with how certain people in the business might feel personally about it, or what if any renumeration someone would receive in return! This is a fact. To deny this would deny the basic premise of free market business and logic. The only other explanation is that they are incredibly naive.

People who drift from one school to another are very common and leave schools for a diverse set of reasons. This is one of the reasons I screen all of my students. Sometimes, students have a very bad experience of one type or another and become quite angry about it.

Although I do not defend comments directed at instructors which are over the top ( crossing the line to slander), I myself have been slandered by certain individuals who have their own agendas and absolutely no facts on which to base their opinions. This is part of the price you pay when you lead. It is much safer to be a follower (sheep, second fiddle) and let someone else take the brunt of whatever comes down the road. Leaders are born, not made. Just ask Master Hwang himself.

My point is and has always been, there is a school for everyone.

I have the highest regard for Master Hwang's Hapkido skills. Just as I do for my other instructors especially Master Chung Kee Tae (who at one time was one of Master Hwang's best friends). I also have immense respect for Master C. S. Kim who is the best twisting Hapkido technique person I have ever met.

Unlike other individuals in their zeal to establish themselves, I have never or ever will expressed any details of Master Hwang's business dealings (ficticious or actual number of students, for example) on a public forum. This is a small part of a verbal deal I still have in force with Master Hwang. I still respect and dilligently protect him in this way. Nor will I address enquiries from anyone, never mind junior students (who have zero knowledge of the facts), aimed at my business on ANY public forum. These behaviors give competitors an advantage for free!

ALL Hapkido (martial arts in general) schools are run differently, reflecting the vision of the person in charge.

To bring this thread back to topic.

Eagle Hapkido is a place for those who enjoy it and find challange and value in training there. This can be said of any school where a need is being addressed. Whether one school provides this, or another, or another, it is up to students to decide which type of school will suite their needs.



PS
*Information is power. I spent more than fifteen years as a professional in the investigation business developing very extensive networks. Most of the information which comes to my attention now does so without ANY input from me. (Hope Master Hwang had fun at his birthday party last week and the reason one senior did not train for some time at Eagle was their pursuit of a black belt at another school).
People should not flatter themselves with their own inflated sense of self importance. If I was inclined (had a reason) to develop a file about something, it would have to be worth my time! Or, someone (approaches me, pays) me to do it!


Keith Stewart
Head Instructor
East West Hapkido
www.eastwesthapkido.com

[austinso]

I dunno...it would have been better for you not to have engaged in sophistry to explain away your blatant insinuations about a person's integrity...

And whether you are consciously aware of it or not, you have a penchant for placing in certain comments, dropping innuendos, or phrasing things a certain way that does in fact question your assertions that "everything is cool" and that does indeed tarnish Master Hwang and his school.

<A shame too...I, in the very least, regard your school probably among the better schools out there...>

This is part of the price you pay when you lead. It is much safer to be a follower (sheep, second fiddle) and let someone else take the brunt of whatever comes down the road. Leaders are born, not made.

People should not flatter themselves with their own inflated sense of self importance.

Words obviously well heeded...

Austin

BTW...information is not "power". It is simply a tool...how people wield it pretty insightful don't you think?

[eagleeyes]

With such a graphic post as mine, I expected there would be some reprisal. So I will reiterate on the main points of my argument since they seem to have been conveniently overlooked.

MJR and Paul have mentioned that this EXTRA fee for successful grading was always in place since they have been there, which was before my time. However, no one ever mentioned anything to me until the moment I made the grade. I wondered if I was not told about this, what else was I not told about?
Also, I never said I never expected to be injured. This is a martial art and it is very physically demanding. I joined eagle because it was tough and hard training, and that is what I wanted. I expected the usual cut, scrape, bruise, or bump. But I, (and I know I speak for many on this one), DID NOT expect to be deliberately injured by some punk who I thought could be trusted. I was assured they were all "good guys" and that there was a spirit of mutual respect. Without respect we cannot grow and develop. No one is a complete idiot so as to not get the sense of what is going around them or sense that something is not entirely right.

Besides, not one of you answered the question of why I was required to pay the additional $100 dollars and others were not? Why the two standards? There should be only one across the board for all, and that is the only true and fair way to run things. MJR said it was not for economic reasons, well then why charge anything at all? Whether it was $100 dollars or $1 dollar is irrelevant. I was deceived. Plain and simple. And this does not inspire feelings of unity or respect or belonging.

Paul writes that to call M. Hwang a racist is a "crock". I'm glad you personally feel that way and I am glad you found a place at eagle. But I say again as I wrote the last time, I am writing from the vast MAJORITY who I have spoken with and told me of their thoughts and experiences, which most of the time turned out to be the same. Paul says that a black belt is not the goal. But why then have a ranking system? The higher the belt, the more technique that student has learned and the higher they have advanced in their knowledge of Hapkido. Is this not the goal? To learn Hapkido! So in a sense, a higher belt is the goal. Why would anyone join a gym with a personal trainer, for example, and go in only to stand against the wall?
Paul also writes that my "expectations of M. Hwang were childish." I exected to be taught Hapkido as per our agreement. What is childish about that? Yes there were days when I trained harder than others, but such is life for all of us. We all have our good days and our bad. We all do not hold the same job. Some have a nicer, more relaxed office job and others a more physically demanding job. If you require a lot of physical energy at your job, how can you be expected to train really hard each and every time you come into the club? A good teacher would take that into consideration; take into account that people outside of the school have a life of their own and other obligations to attend to. I wanted to seriously learn Hapkido there and that is all.
I must thank JRT for making my point for me very well. He said, "If you want religion, go to church." Exactly. I wanted Hapkido, but I got religion (sort of). In the club, M. Hwang often interupted classes and started going off on a tangent and talking about irrelevant things, and quoting Jesus Christ for example. This is religion, and this is not what I wanted in a Hapkido school. So I agree with JRT and that it should be kept out of the club. It is irrelevant what nationality, religion, creed, colour or political viewpoint one is from. If Hapkido is "for everyone", as M. Hwang told me, then it should be taught to everyone equally so that all can develop and "forge their spirit" to become better human beings. Hell, it is exactly what he advertises on his own web site. But deliberately injuring, embarassing, or humiliating someone in class is not forging anything other than resentment and low morale. Do you want people to go and stay at your club or don't you?

As for Austinso, to call someone "numbnut" on an open forum is simply childish and immature. And so I won't even take the time to "grace" that, for there is nothing to grace, just stupidity. Grow up kid. My sole intent was to answer people like Joseph5, who posted that he was interested in eagle and if anyone could help him out. Again, I can speak from my personal experience and that of the vast MAJORITY I have spoken to, who have spent any amount of time there, that M. hwang in very knowledgeful YES. But irregardless of this or how hard I trained, on some days he wanted to teach and on others not. Why? God only knows.

I'm sorry that my candid facts make MJR uncomfortable, but I do not see a need to "couch" anybody's feelings unless you are volunteering to re-write our Canadian 'Charter of Rights' or 'Constitution'. If not, then I, like yourself and everyone else, are free to express myself as I wish. Free to think and feel what I will. And if I feel like I am pissed off because I have been wronged of deceived in some way , then I will be. My expression is still far more tactful than calling someone "numbnut." In the future, it isn't necessary for you to suggest to anyone to "couch" their feelings, as you yourself do not in your numerous posts, where you do give off the sense that you are the foremost authority on everything.

I think Shadow Warrior makes a very good point. If you think you have found such a good school and teacher such as at eagle, then why would you send your own son to train somewhere else? Of course, you could say this is none of my business, and you're right, it is. But the question still remains. I have checked out your posted website for spiritforging. In your introduction, you use the word "we" an awful lot as if you train with a group. But in your last post, you admit that you only have a handful of "fellows" who you train privately for non profit. Your website would suggest otherwise; that you are a little more established than this. It would then suggest that it is false advertising. Now that IS interesting. I am starting to have my doubts about you MJR.

In summary, I tried to present my personal experiences at eagle, and that of MANY OTHERS, as carefully and honestly as I know how. I understand that no ONE school is for everyone, but some schools are for some people. I was initially led to believe that eagle was for me, and in fact, was told that it was. But it proved to not be, and resulted in a serious injury to me both physically and psychologically. If my post has offended anyone at all, I apologize to them (and to MAP). That was never my intention. Instead, my intent was to inform people like Joseph5 and others to be CAREFUL when choosing a school. If you get the sense that something fishy is going on, do not ignore your instincts. Chances are, there is. If the teacher is "uneasy", then I assure you, your stay there will be also.

I hope everyone finds the stability they are looking for in life. If that be martial arts, then train hard, train safe, and above all, respect each other. With this kind of knowledge comes a social and moral responsibility, and should not be put in the hands of just anyone.

Peace to all.

[KoreanWarrior]

I have to agreed with eagleeyes. My question is why was everyone and smiling and laughing about this fee? I think somehow somthing you may have said during your training there lead them to believe you could afford the $100 so you were asked to pay it.
I heard other stories about certain instructors/ masters when you walked in and said somthing like I'm a doctor and would like to join, all the fees were magically doubled and you need to sign up on the duluxe program. That is if they sense you have money they have no problem in charging you extra.

The really sad part of this entire story is that you really wanted to learn hapkido and you had the misfortune to sign up at a school that didnt really care about you. And now with your injuries you may never get to learn any martial arts. I'm glad you came forward to save others from making the same mistake.

[austinso]

Let me get this straight "eagleeyes":

You have a physically demanding day job, and that was your excuse for not working hard all the time...? And everyone else in the school somehow didn't have demanding jobs except for you...?!

You wanted Master Hwang and his senior students to be considerate of your situation and exhaustion, when all you could have done is come by at times when you were well-rested...?

You expected private lessons from Master Hwang and his seniors to lead you by your hands to tell you how to do each and every technique...?

Sorry...did you expect a hug everyday at class from one of the "deviants"?

And of course, you are somehow the spokesperson for "the vast majority" and "many others". Of course you have been in contact with all the former students of Master Hwang, and have formulated an opinion based on *all* his students. That would of course permit you to make "quantitative" statements like "vast majority" and "many others".

A black man says that he has never experienced racism from Master Hwang, and you discount his opinion as the minority.

The school has always been flexible about fees and training, yet you characterize Master Hwang as a "con-man". Somehow, everyone was aware of the fees except for you. And seniors were "laughing" at you when they requested a purported "extra" fee...?

I don't think so.

I don't doubt that you were not pleased with the school.
I don't doubt that your expectations as described above were not met.

There is nothing wrong with being unable to learn in an environment where you are not micromanaged. Different people thrive under different circumstances.

But when you start slandering the school and slandering the teacher and play the victim card, it is not being "graphic", it is demonstrating a weakness in character.

Austin

P.S. Yes...sometimes I engage in petty namecalling...but generally I do it when it fits the bill...afterall you did not deny that you stood outside city hall advocating that homosexuals be punished by death...

[austinso]

KoreanWarrior:

I will say that as a Korean, I find your handle and your attitude toward MA training as an embarrassment.

Austin

[eagleeyes]

Austinso:

I will say that you then, as a Korean, seem hardly able to look at M. Hwang and his school objectively. I was merely posting for those like Joseph5 who didn't have the experience there, like I did, to be careful.

I never said I was the official spokesperson for everyone who ever went there. But I did mention that I have spoken with many people who did attend there at different times, and witnessed the same things that I did. It seemed curious to me that so many would have pretty much the same things to say, and so I thought it was time someone posted for those interested.

Choosing a school is a very personal thing and with so many schools out there, a willing student must be careful and choose wisely. The idea was not to deter anyone from going to eagle, but to simply describe my experience there, and to let them decide for themeselves. Likewise, no one has the right to suppress anothers opinion and so Korean Warrior has the right to his opinion as much as you do.

P.S. No I was not the guy standing naked outside screaming something about gays, but you could have been. What a perfect cover to accuse someone else.

[Eddie1958]

This was a simple thread about Joseph 5's interest in studing Hapkido,it then turned into mud slinging. I have been studing Hapkido for about 10 years. within that 10 years I trained in Master Hwang's club for about 3 years. I am a proud student of Shadow Warrior, he is a very close friend of mine. At Master Hwang's club I found it like Hapkido, to be very physically demanding. The students and senior students were always very friendly to me and helpful, why because I earned their respect.

It is an honour to have time with a master, head instructor or senior student. That is why when a new person joins you are put with a knowledgeable lower belt student. Then the master, head insturctor or senior student will watch how the new person is doing and offer instruction to help the new student with learning. As you prove yourself with in time the master, head instructor and senior student will spend more time with you. Now in my first posting of this thread, I sudjested that Joseph5 go to Master Hwang's school check it out. After, come to my school check it out make your mind up as to what school best suits you. Like other people have said "not all schools are for everybody."

Now for the mud slinging, I stopped training at Master Hwang's school because most of the higher belts did not show my instructor proper respect when we were training together. One such person is a member of this forum. Don't even say I am wrong. I don't appreciate attacking someone's character when he is giving information. If you disaggree fine rebut. Then we can all learn.

If Joseph 5 is interested in trying out my school send me a message and we can talk. The character attacking has to stop.

[austinso]

Austinso:I will say that you then, as a Korean, seem hardly able to look at M. Hwang and his school objectively. I was merely posting for those like Joseph5 who didn't have the experience there, like I did, to be careful.

Let me get this straight:

*I* am not able to look at his school objectively (I in fact encourage people to drop by and form their own opinions) while your first contribution to this thread was that Master Hwang was a "joker" and a "crappy teacher" so don't bother going.

Well done eagleeyes! Well done!

I never said I was the official spokesperson for everyone who ever went there. But I did mention that I have spoken with many people who did attend there at different times, and witnessed the same things that I did. It seemed curious to me that so many would have pretty much the same things to say, and so I thought it was time someone posted for those interested.

"Many", eh?

"Many" (or should I say "vast majority") of these supposed "former students" thought that Master Hwang was racist, yet two african canadians continue to train there (three had Andrew not been killed God rest his soul).

Many/vast majority of these supposed "former students" felt that he was not a good teacher, despite the fact that a single person here who has trained with Master Hwang agreed with you.

Need I go on?

Do you honestly think that this trick of invoking this imaginary "many" is going to convince anyone?

Choosing a school is a very personal thing and with so many schools out there, a willing student must be careful and choose wisely. The idea was not to deter anyone from going to eagle, but to simply describe my experience there, and to let them decide for themeselves. Likewise, no one has the right to suppress anothers opinion and so Korean Warrior has the right to his opinion as much as you do.

You have every right to express you opinions.

And by that same token, everyone has every right to critique it.

Clearly you didn't like the well-reasoned response provided by MJR nor of anyone else here, so you decided to continue and enhance your slander in the hopes of convincing others otherwise.

Everyone to a T has suggested to drop by and check it out and form their own opinions.

You on the other hand, resorted to name-calling right off the bat.

Thanks for coming out...

Austin

[austinso]

Now for the mud slinging, I stopped training at Master Hwang's school because most of the higher belts did not show my instructor proper respect when we were training together. One such person is a member of this forum. Don't even say I am wrong. I don't appreciate attacking someone's character when he is giving information. If you disaggree fine rebut. Then we can all learn.

Hello Eddie...I was a roomate of Jeff Hayes and George Workman...

I respect your loyalty to your friend and your teacher, but I think you should review the development of this thread before reaching any conclusions.

Austin

[Eddie1958]

Hi Austin, if you are the Austin that I trained with at Master Hwang's, "How are you? Long time."

The development of this thread took a change when Eagleeyes called Master Hwang a joker. This is something that I feel is in very bad form. Whether it is true or not people should keep name calling to themselfs.Also someone called Master Hwang a racist, these are personal attacks.


Originally Posted by shadow warrior
The thing which I do find quite strange however, is a person defending one school as THE BEST while running their own school interests and sending their own son to third school (complete with a testimonial signed as an assistant instructor of the first school). [/url]

Shadow Warrior never used anyones name or nickname in his post. So how is it slander. He exprested his opinion but did not use someones name.

Lets try to help Joseph5 in picking out a good martial art school for him.

[Paul d]

“I have to agreed with eagleeyes. My question is why was everyone and smiling and laughing about this fee?”

This is his rendition of what happened. (Some embellishment may have taken place.) Who was this everyone??? Why would people smile and laugh? Do you think there is some sort of secret group that singled out eagleeyes, ripped him poff and “everyone” split the loot?

“I think somehow somthing you may have said during your training there lead them to believe you could afford the $100 so you were asked to pay it.”

I think you are making quite the space jump here with that assumption.
As a senior, a lot of the time I am present for the testing, and under Master Hwang’s directions I facilitate the test. Afterwards if the student(s) pass, they are greeted and welcomed by all the other students. It is a joyous time, where everybody is usually smiling and laughing. Student are usually told before they test that there is a fee, and reminded again shortly afterwards.



“Besides, not one of you answered the question of why I was required to pay the additional $100 dollars and others were not? Why the two standards”

To the best of my knowledge everybody pays. Some make a couple of payments, and some are given time to pay (Students)

“Paul writes that to call M. Hwang a racist is a "crock". I'm glad you personally feel that way and I am glad you found a place at eagle. But I say again as I wrote the last time, I am writing from the vast MAJORITY who I have spoken with and told me of their thoughts and experiences, which most of the time turned out to be the same.”

I have been there for over 20 years, and I have a lot of contact with the “vast MAJORITY” of student’s. Being of colour myself, don’t you think these "allegations" would have been shared with me in the change room, or while training? I am not a scary unapproachable “Punk”

“Paul says that a black belt is not the goal. But why then have a ranking system? The higher the belt, the more technique that student has learned and the higher they have advanced in their knowledge of Hapkido. Is this not the goal? To learn Hapkido! So in a sense, a higher belt is the goal”

Yes, there is a ranking system, but I think you missed the part about it being a “personal journey.” The “goal” is to learn Hap Ki Do. Obsessing about belts is a by-product of ego. This art has been polluted by ego, measurement, and the inability to delay gratification. A long time ago the honour of receiving a belt meant something, it indicated that you had made a journey of mind, body and spirit. It was very personal. Nowadays, I feel it has lost its true meaning. I want to make this very clear I am not judging those who use the belt system in a good way, or those who have “Earned” their belts, IMHO we only know what we are taught, and a lot have been taught the need to feed their ego. The scene from “Spinal Tap” with the guitars and amplifiers, comes to mind… 11 (Some of you will understand)

“Paul also writes that my "expectations of M. Hwang were childish." I exected to be taught Hapkido as per our agreement. What is childish about that?”
“What do you think hapens to a student who starts off with much hope and gets the sense that they are being neglected?”

Hmmm, do I really need to comment?

“I later got the sense that it was deliberate, and that M. Hwang actually sent him to injure me. For what reason I don't know, but I do know today that it was deliberate.

Yep, just minding your own business, training hard and Master Hwang sends someone over to deliberately injure you. LOL
I beginning to think you have a problem with narcissism and paranoia.

I understand that you feel the club didn’t live up to your expectations, and was right for you… To each his own, but to call Master Hwang a “Joker”, “crappy teacher” and “Racist” was stepping over the line. Also your relentless effort in trying to sling mud about the club, based upon fabricated hearsay, and unfounded assumptions, only shows that you have some deeper issues to deal with. Either that, or you’re just bored and enjoy playing “He said, She said” on the Internet. :rolleyes:

Paul

[shadow warrior]

The best way to resolve this thread is to appoint MJR as the consultant in this matter.

Anyone interested in training can contact him and he can recommend one of these training situations perfectly suited for them. This would be done with the potential students goals in mind. With his vast martial arts experience, I'm sure that he can help people find a good fit at one of these schools so that they can pursue their training.

www.eaglehapkido.com

www.spiritforging.com

www.salvosabjj.com/testimonials

If the student does not find what they are looking for through this process, they can look at the hundreds of other schools in the GTA.

[KoreanWarrior]

I think most schools have a form you fill out for testing. On this form they usually ask the basics. Like start date, last test, current rank....etc, AND the fees, like yellow $25 blue $35 ... so you know how much and also you can see the future fees too. To just spring it on someone after the test\promotion whatever is rude, unprofessional ...

I think someone has already mentioned that the teachers skill is not in question but the manner in which persons are treated. We could be talking about a dance studio or weight training gym and this still would apply. I wouldnt go to a gym that was run down and dirty. I wouldnt go to a gym that the trainers injured people. I wouldnt stay at a gym that I agreed to pay$100 dollars a month for membership and then tried to ask me for extra $100 not written down or in the agreement.

Can we stear this thread towards how a school should be ran instead of this person is not a good teacher?

[KickChick]

Can we stear this thread towards how a school should be ran instead of this person is not a good teacher?


Well the OP had asked about a particular school "Eagle Hapkido in Toronto, Canada" and I believe he has received a few opinions, few of which spurred Mr. Stewart to begin a thread regarding slander.

Honest comments have been made and I believe Joseph has gotten some ideas.

Best bet is for him to visit the school and make up his own mind.

Perhaps you can start another thread if you want to continue on the topic of how a "Hapkido" school should be run.