I do TKD but think boxing is best for self defence

[danthemanuk]

I feel very sorry for any criminal who tries to mug a well trained boxer. I do Tkd & think the self defence techniques are brilliant, however a lot of the techniques assume the attacker is not very streetwise. The reason I admire boxers so much is the amount of training, the fitness, the strength, the stamina,the speed, the endurance. I saw an amatuer boxer one time at the gym, on a punch bag, he was absoloutley & utterly amazing, he was knocking the stuffing out of that bag like lightning, really hard hits, one after the other, for it must have been almost 10minutes, it was an impressive sight. I have seen TKd high belts spar & they are very impressive, but this guy was something else. I can not imagine anyone mugging him unless they shot him, he was like an animal.

[Nrv4evr]

Thai boxing is boxing with kicking, elbows, and knees. Just something to think about. I saw Thai boxers take elbows in the face and just laugh. As much as I respect boxing, I have to say Muay Thai is slightly better for self-defense. I would hate to see anyone, even a trained fighter, take on a skilled MT master. Eight weapons is much better than two. And a kick is way more powerful than the most powerful punch. Coban once fought off five criminals barefisted, and then scared them off with a bar. If that ain't effective self defense, nothing is.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

good lord, you mean someone attacked Coban? suicidal muggers? they must have been foreigners right, no thai in his right mind would do something so stupid :D

there was a report a little while ago about a guy in thailand who was a muay thai teacher, some guys broke into his mums house, tied her up and were robbing her when he walked in. they were armed, but he still beat their asses down. thats pretty tough :D

[Scarlet Mist]

Apparently they also spit fire from their eyes and shoot lightning bolts from their arses.

[Nrv4evr]

good lord, you mean someone attacked Coban? suicidal muggers? they must have been foreigners right, no thai in his right mind would do something so stupid :D


Lol, that's exactly what I thought when I first heard it. Apparently they tried to mug him, Coban fought them off with ease, and just to get the message through, chased them off with a bar.

[Infrazael]

Who's Coban??? Sorry for my ignorance.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

Coban is retired now I think, but he was one of Thailands best fighters- the only man to ever knockout Ramon Dekkers.

[Infrazael]

So he's like Mike Tyson level???

[Punchy]

I have had to defind myself and found boxing very practical. I have also trained in Muay Thai and Karate but in self defence situations have repeatedly found myself 'ambushed' in a situation where the use of kicks and knees were not an option (eg seated in a bus, car or in a train where the floor was moving a lot so you could not kick). People seem to forget the fact that in self defence situations you are usually in a cluttered environment where your movements are very restricted - not anything like the dojo or the gym. Boxing makes few assumptions about where you are defending yourself so it is very reliable. Cross training in grappling (eg ju-jutsu) is valuable as it works in confined spaces as well.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

yeah. i for one would not rely on my muay thai kicks to defend myself for that very reason. boxing tends to work no matter where you are

[danthemanuk]

I appreciate everything being said above, & as I have mentioned I do Tkd , so know a little about self defence, & I know kicks can be a lot more devastating than a punch, but when I talk about self defence, I mean in the real world. Yes my turning kicks break boards, & if some dumbass tried to mug me who was really really slow, then I could probably break his face with a really accurate kick, as long as I had time to warm up & stretch& in a contest with rules & time to prepare then kickboxing, tkd , etc is better than boxing. However in the real world if someone tried to mug me, they are not going to be half asleep while I line my kick up, I am not going to be warm & stretched. They probably wont go down with one punch as trying to do a killer punch while someones fighting back is very hard to do. Yes I can pushkick them away but they could keep coming back, ( i like to imagine that if I was attacked it would be by someone very hard, that way I prepare & expect the worse)thats why I think boxing is best in real life, you dont have to be warm or stretched to do a half decent punch, and if you are a decent boxer in fighting condition I cant imagine anyone getting the better of you. You cant be that accurate in real life, but if your throwing puches as hard & fast as the boxer I mentioned in my first post then the other guy is really gonna hurt & also be unable to hit back.

dan

[Punchy]

Another aspect is psychological. In a self-defence situation you may need to be aggressive and make a 'preemptive strike' or you may need to respond after being hit unexpectedly. Because of the constant experience of actually punching and being punched you tend to get used to this and become more aggresive and tougher than if you were doing only light contact sparring. This is not something that is limited to boxing however; Muay Thai for example would expose you to similar conditioning.

[tekkengod]

I feel very sorry for any criminal who tries to mug a well trained boxer. I do Tkd & think the self defence techniques are brilliant, however a lot of the techniques assume the attacker is not very streetwise. The reason I admire boxers so much is the amount of training, the fitness, the strength, the stamina,the speed, the endurance. I saw an amatuer boxer one time at the gym, on a punch bag, he was absoloutley & utterly amazing, he was knocking the stuffing out of that bag like lightning, really hard hits, one after the other, for it must have been almost 10minutes, it was an impressive sight. I have seen TKd high belts spar & they are very impressive, but this guy was something else. I can not imagine anyone mugging him unless they shot him, he was like an animal.

or how about.....hmmm.....gee, what works really well against boxers.....OH I know, maintain distance and destroy his legs, or GRAPPLE. but i guess a mugger isn't gonna do that. most muggers have knives.

[tekkengod]

I appreciate everything being said above, & as I have mentioned I do Tkd , so know a little about self defence, & I know kicks can be a lot more devastating than a punch, but when I talk about self defence, I mean in the real world. Yes my turning kicks break boards, & if some dumbass tried to mug me who was really really slow, then I could probably break his face with a really accurate kick, as long as I had time to warm up & stretch& in a contest with rules & time to prepare then kickboxing, tkd , etc is better than boxing. However in the real world if someone tried to mug me, they are not going to be half asleep while I line my kick up, I am not going to be warm & stretched. They probably wont go down with one punch as trying to do a killer punch while someones fighting back is very hard to do. Yes I can pushkick them away but they could keep coming back, ( i like to imagine that if I was attacked it would be by someone very hard, that way I prepare & expect the worse)thats why I think boxing is best in real life, you dont have to be warm or stretched to do a half decent punch, and if you are a decent boxer in fighting condition I cant imagine anyone getting the better of you. You cant be that accurate in real life, but if your throwing puches as hard & fast as the boxer I mentioned in my first post then the other guy is really gonna hurt & also be unable to hit back.

dan

yeah, i'll give you that. i'd rely on my hands more than my legs anyday. but theres always that GRAPPLING option which is equally if not much more effective in confined spaces and reality.

[Punchy]

I cross train in Ju-Jitsu and agree that grappling is a good option. However I tend to be a bit reluctant to use grappling as a first resort in a self-defence situation because:-

1. The opponent may have a knife, and it seems to be much harder to see the knife coming if you are grappling and the opponent then draws the knife. I have practiced this in 'reality self defence' classes and while you do have some chance to 'feel' the drawing action while grappling it is still hard to detect. However if you have some distance you can see the draw and are less likely to be taken by surprise.

2. I find you easily lose awareness of other potential attackers who can strike you unawares (especially if you go to the ground). In my experience you are usually faced by multiple attackers (who are not individually very good, but rely on numbers to make up for that) and you need to keep some distance where possible so that they do not get behind you or pile onto you. If you have some distance and are punching and watching this seems to be enough - at least in my experience.

3. It tends to require a bit more time per attacker than does a punch. Once again this is an advantage against multiple attackers.

However if you are grabbed (head locks and bear hugs are fairly common) you need to know at least how to escape.

I have found grappling very good for what I would describe as nuisance attacks. For example when someone you know or do not really want to hurt (much) hassles you (eg grabs you by the jacket etc). Punching is not a good option here as it tends to be more likely to injure or cause a worse fight.

[tekkengod]

I cross train in Ju-Jitsu and agree that grappling is a good option. However I tend to be a bit reluctant to use grappling as a first resort in a self-defence situation because:-

1. The opponent may have a knife, and it seems to be much harder to see the knife coming if you are grappling and the opponent then draws the knife. I have practiced this in 'reality self defence' classes and while you do have some chance to 'feel' the drawing action while grappling it is still hard to detect. However if you have some distance you can see the draw and are less likely to be taken by surprise.

2. I find you easily lose awareness of other potential attackers who can strike you unawares (especially if you go to the ground). In my experience you are usually faced by multiple attackers (who are not individually very good, but rely on numbers to make up for that) and you need to keep some distance where possible so that they do not get behind you or pile onto you. If you have some distance and are punching and watching this seems to be enough - at least in my experience.

3. It tends to require a bit more time per attacker than does a punch. Once again this is an advantage against multiple attackers.

However if you are grabbed (head locks and bear hugs are fairly common) you need to know at least how to escape.

I have found grappling very good for what I would describe as nuisance attacks. For example when someone you know or do not really want to hurt (much) hassles you (eg grabs you by the jacket etc). Punching is not a good option here as it tends to be more likely to injure or cause a worse fight.


for the scenarios he was describing, i was suggesting stand up grappling. and against multiple opponents not much is gonna help you.

and most of the grapplers i know are more of MMAers so the concept of gettign hit while grappling isn't a new idea.

and yes i agree for "nuisance" attacks its a good option, but grappling can put an much more serious hurt on someone much easier than a punch. i'm sure u know that, i'm just making positive. i'm sure alot things work welll. but for me, seeing as how it is by far my strongest skill set. its what i use most often and it has saved my ass plenty of times.

[faster than you]

but grappling can put an much more serious hurt on someone much easier than a punch.

you must not have much of a punch. :D

[kenpoguy]

Thank you to the original poster for posting such an open to opinion subject. From my experience as a boxer, kickboxer, and martial artists please allow me to share my views. The typical boxer will not be at the skill level of a pro, but will still have a slight edge agaisnt those on the street. No doubt boxing is relativly good for self defense against the common man on the street. Although, it will not be as effective for a well trained man who has had combat experience, or even a drunk. The same theory really applies to kickboxing and other contact sports. The various martial arts are where you really get into true self defense. Taekwondo is nowadays considered more of a sport fighting art, so perhaps that is why you found boxing to be more effective. You may consider researching other arts however, as many are quite effective. But if you are looking to gain confidence, get strong, get into great shape, and feel like a new person, then boxing would come reccomend as well. But i would suggest doing it becasue you want to fight more for glory, not because you actually have to. That is to say if one says there is any glory at all in fighting. That all depends upon whom you ask :)

[tekkengod]

i say there is an immesurable amount of glory. as long as its in competition. that is.

[Nrv4evr]

So he's like Mike Tyson level???

Debatable. But I'll give you this. I would put my money, but only barely, on Coban in a fight. Ikken might disagree :p , but I think Coban could pull it off.

On topic, grappling arts are probably the most versatile self-defense arts. People can take a punch, but not many people can resist an armbar. As well, like Punchy said, grappling can be used to it's full extent with the aid of seats (leverage points), and bars (again, leverage point). However, in open streetfighting, where the guy just wants to beat you up, boxing, MT, and possibly Kyokushin karate. Take karate for the skill, but take Kyo or MT for the practical application.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

I don't know... Coban was pound for pound a better fighter, but tyson had at least 100 pounds over him. both in their prime, and the way Tyson fights... if he ate that first leg kick from Coban and kept going I think he could take him.

[Nrv4evr]

Yeah, actually, it's the leg kicks I'm counting on. I will admit Tyson has freakish power, and could put a cow to sleep with one punch. But his legs aren't conditioned. That's the Achilles heel of many boxers. A nice teep to the thigh could give him second thoughts about charging Coban. You may be right, Ikken. But I just can't see Tyson taking a Coban teep to the thigh/knee, without wincing. I don't doubt that Tyson could KO Coban... Dekkers proved that Coban was human. However, so did Buster Douglas prove Tyson's mortality. Coban had wicked punches, and if he could just get a hard kick on Tyson's knee or thigh, and get at least a slight flinch, then he could get in with a few knees or elbows, and then take out Tyson. It's anybody's fight. But I have to say, and I am slightly biased, that Coban could pull it off. I'm not saying he would full-out dominate... I'm just saying that it is highly possible for Coban to win. He has the weapons and skill. Perhaps it may be enough for him to overcome the size difference.

[NeonxBurst]

I can't say as I care much for boxing, but I guess if you want great hand technique, then that's your baby, but I'm totally confident in my ability to protect myself with my TKD, and with my great teacher, that just really reinforces that idea, but maybe I'm wrong, but I hope to never really test the idea.

[tekkengod]

but grappling can put an much more serious hurt on someone much easier than a punch.

you must not have much of a punch. :D

hmmm....ok buddy. punch in face=hurts. has power. not pleasent.

armbar with destructive intent=mindnummbingly painful.
can destroy the arm. cause massive bleeding.
kneebar/armbar. kimura/wrist lock. guillotene.
"i think were done here"-Brian {family guy} :D

[danthemanuk]

I think what I have posted has been misunderstood, possibly my own fault for not being clear enough. I think any form of self defence is much better than no self defence knowledge at all. I like all forms of martial arts. I dont think there any rubbish martial arts. I dont think there is any martial art which is superior to others. The point I was trying to make is that boxing puts a lot of emphasis on being fit, fast & strong. And I think that is very important in a street situation. I am not in anyway putting down any other style. For the record if I was attacked in the street I think I would use my fists more than my feet. However If my attacker was using martial arts then I would probably resort to kicks , elbows etc. From my experience of sparring in class I have found that if someone is raining punches on you and there close to you , its too awkward to kick, you have to wait for an opening & punch back, & then keep punching , dont give them an opening to hit back, once you have control then you can use a kick. Like I keep mentioning that guy in the gym on the bag, he was so fast I cant imagine getting an opening if he was hitting you, to me he looked unstoppable, I think the only way I would stop him would be if I could box that well. On the street my perception ( I may be totally wrong)is an attacker is going to punch you, not kick or get you in an arm lock etc. i suppose at the end of the day you defend yourself according to how your being attacked.

Sorry if my post sounds naive I admit there are a lot of people on here with much more experience than me. Sorry i f i annoyed anyone.


dan

[lone wolf]

Yeah for the longest I thought that boxing crossed trained with a grappling art such as Brazilian jui-jitsu would make for a very well rounded fighter.

[jome]

training with gloves on is just stupid. You learn a lot of bad habits. I saw the real deal in Korea. A trained kicker will break a boxer's leg before the boxer even realises he's at RISK. A fairly fast man with a hunk of angle iron or piper, or a large stone in each hand (that he can THROW from a distance of 6 ft or so, is more than a match for any boxer.

[Slindsay]

training with gloves on is just stupid. You learn a lot of bad habits. I saw the real deal in Korea. A trained kicker will break a boxer's leg before the boxer even realises he's at RISK. A fairly fast man with a hunk of angle iron or piper, or a large stone in each hand (that he can THROW from a distance of 6 ft or so, is more than a match for any boxer.

I am going to go and quietly cry in a corner that such folly is still here on this bord.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to kick someone hard enough to break their leg when they are standing still?

Did you even read the opinions of people who have done boxing and TKD together?

How many legs have you broken with your kicks?

Where the poeple in Korea punching with bare knuckles to the face full contact?

And which martial art do you do that teaches self defence against a thrown rock?

[jome]

or gouge his eyes, the others don't want any, and as Moon Hyo Kun said:" they wrong, you right, no matter how many, just you RIGHT".

[Ikken Hisatsu]

wow, you mean if i have a steel pipe I can beat up a boxer? i would never have guessed. tkd, on the other hand- it would just bounce right off them! too tough!

[jome]

and punch off the other half. :-) I've dislocated one guy's knee (I think, didn't hang around to find out) and I"ve seen several others. Any art that emphasizes footwork and jumping moves gives you a good chance against thrown rocks. Especially if you know to throw YOUR keys, denture, glasses, change, etc, and have the ability to skip-jumpkick 6-7ft. Only trained men stand a chance against a trained fighter. The problem is, 99,9% of americans only THINK that are "trained". CAn you stand in place, jump over a stick held at wishbone height? Can you standing jump front kick 2 of your handspans above your head, barefoot break 2 boards with that kick?

[Slindsay]

and punch off the other half. :-) I've dislocated one guy's knee (I think, didn't hang around to find out) and I"ve seen several others. Any art that emphasizes footwork and jumping moves gives you a good chance against thrown rocks.

You mean because boxing doesnt emphasise footwork? Also why excatly would jumping help me gainst a thrown rock? So I can jump over it? Id sooner duck which incidentally you get taught to do in boxing a lot...

Especially if you know to throw YOUR keys, denture, glasses, change, etc, and have the ability to skip-jumpkick 6-7ft.

See this makes more sense. Give the mugger what he wants and he'll leave you alone.

I assume that the comments on jumping are actually refering to closing the distance faster right?

Only trained men stand a chance against a trained fighter. The problem is, 99,9% of americans only THINK that are "trained".

Actually pretty much anyone has a chance against a trained fighter, they just need to be lucky.

CAn you stand in place, jump over a stick held at wishbone height?
No but I can punch you damn hard whilst your doing it.

Can you standing jump front kick 2 of your handspans above your head, barefoot break 2 boards with that kick?

Yep. Wouldnt want to try it in a fight though

Also have you ever seen how boxers train to bob and weave? They have someone stand about 6 foot from them and chuck tennis balls or ping pong balls at them :)

Another question for you, was the board trying to dodge when you broke it? Cos most people dont just stand there and let you hit them in the head, particularly when your winding up for it by jumping in the air.

Also are you seriously recomending jumping kicks as a significant part of self defence training??

[masteryoursoul]

or how about.....hmmm.....gee, what works really well against boxers.....OH I know, maintain distance and destroy his legs, or GRAPPLE. but i guess a mugger isn't gonna do that. most muggers have knives.

Nice sarcasm buddy. But anyways, yes, someone trained in grappling would be able to clinch a boxer trained in such, a MT fighter could try to maintain distance and use leg kicks to take the boxer apart.

Lets stop for one minute and assume that not everyone you see on the street will know what you are trained in, and therefor will not know how to properly counteract you until you have laid it on heavy.

Also, for a moment, lets assume not everyone is so heavily trained in the exact bane of your training style. Boxing is useful for any street punk who throws a sucker haymaker at your face and tries to pummel you. If you're good, you can take that first shot and keep going. People dont stop on the street and go "Hmm, hes a boxer, so I should close the distance and lock up his arms, I think I hammer lock would be a good lead." Most people lead with a sucker punch to the face.

All that nonesense aside, this post is just a perfect example of why cross training is so very important, especially if you train in something that watches your weakpoints. Boxing is extremely weak vs grappling to the untrained person, aswell as people who can keep kicking distance. To defend against kicks with boxing I'd say close distance, exact techniques to do that? Whatever works. Boxing weakness to grappling is exactly why cross training in wrestling is so important. Say the guy somehow does find out your a boxer, and is smart enough to lock you up in a clinch. Now your wrestling training comes into play, and you can still rock out!

Next post to gun down :D :woo:

[tekkengod]

closing distance is easier than you might think. so if you try that, you've got a relatively big job ahead of you, but i do it too. close distance before he can throw any, clinch, throw some knees and work some locks and subs from the clinch or go to the GNP is my best advice.