MMA, the final thread!

[Andy Murray]

Not that you'll take much heed of me :rolleyes: but the issues surrounding MMA vs TMA etc are clogging up a few other threads, and it would be nice to get it all sorted out here.

From my understanding so far;

MMA is a training methodology and/or a sporting format.
It's based on 3 or more different TMA systems.
The most commonly accepted systems seem to be Muay Thai & BJJ.

TMA covers a range of different systems, some of which are ridiculously ineffective. Some people only do them for fun. Some of these systems cover issues that will come up in real life in a manner no sports gym would consider relevant to the MMA sports environment, as they have rules to protect them.

TMA people can crosstrain, but I don't see why they should feel a need to refer to themselves as practicing MMA. I've always considered cross training to be necessary, and the term works for me.

In the scenario where a good grappler has control over someone from a striking system, the striker is inclined to strike. It's all he knows how to do. What bugs me, is when the grappler says "I can do that too" Maybe they can, but they don't necessarily train for it.

Frequently, I've seen people post about how MMA/UFC events are as close to reality fighting as you can get. Sorry, but I strongly disagree. Real fights, and what the majority of the TMA systems focus their attention on, do not occur on matted fenced off areas with an audience, referee's and rules. Don't be ridiculous. Real fights happen with broken bottles and bricks, ten or more against one. There is noone to call time when you tap out cos you can't defend the paving slab about to crush your skull.
Yeah that triangle choke is superb, pity the guys mate is kicking your head in as you apply it. Whaddya mean he bit your ear off, tell your coach, he'll kiss it better.

Before you MMA people start distancing yourself from TMA systems, just remember where your MMA came from. Sporting environments are a very good way to hone your skills, but don't go getting all overconfident and superior, cos that's what will get you into fights. If you haven't been training awareness, releases from Hair grabs, blocking systems, defences against multiple attackers etc, the you'll be in hospital long before the TMA guy.......if you're lucky!

Go Nuclear!
:D

[Swoop]

You seemed to have over looked the fact that MMA isn't just about competition training. Like TMA, MMA can be anything you want it to be.

[Andy Murray]

Nope, I simply didn't comment on that aspect. I have no problem with combinent MMA's, just the attitude of the would be sports competitors!

Originally posted by Andy Murray
From my understanding so far;

MMA is a training methodology and/or a sporting format.

:D

[YODA]

From my understanding so far;

MMA is a training methodology and/or a sporting format.
It's based on 3 or more different TMA systems.
The most commonly accepted systems seem to be Muay Thai & BJJ.

Ok so far :D



TMA covers a range of different systems, some of which are ridiculously ineffective. Some people only do them for fun. Some of these systems cover issues that will come up in real life in a manner no sports gym would consider relevant to the MMA sports environment, as they have rules to protect them.

Don't forget - many "MMA" gyms also teach stuff that they wouldn't be allowed to do in the sporting arena. Definately true of the SBG guys and most of the MMA people I know.


TMA people can crosstrain, but I don't see why they should feel a need to refer to themselves as practicing MMA. I've always considered cross training to be necessary, and the term works for me.

Makes sense

In the scenario where a good grappler has control over someone from a striking system, the striker is inclined to strike. It's all he knows how to do. What bugs me, is when the grappler says "I can do that too" Maybe they can, but they don't necessarily train for it.

They do if they're a MMA grappler - and it's MMA we're discussing- right? :D

Frequently, I've seen people post about how MMA/UFC events are as close to reality fighting as you can get. Sorry, but I strongly disagree. Real fights, and what the majority of the TMA systems focus their attention on, do not occur on matted fenced off areas with an audience, referee's and rules. Don't be ridiculous. Real fights happen with broken bottles and bricks, ten or more against one........blah blah snip snip

Agreed- but most TMA's don't train in that environment either :D

So - if MMA bouts are not as close to reality as you can get - what is? What training format that you can apply against full resistance comes closer?

Before you MMA people start distancing yourself from TMA systems, just remember where your MMA came from. Sporting environments are a very good way to hone your skills, but don't go getting all overconfident and superior, cos that's what will get you into fights.


I find it's the opposite in my experience - most MMA people I know have a very realistic appreciation of how vulnerable they and anyone else is when "it" hits the fan. It's the TMA people I know who tend to have a false sense of security and get in fights because "Sensei says" that their reverse punch to the chest will stop a freight train. MMA people KNOW what they can and cannot do under real pressure becasue that's how they train.


If you haven't been training awareness, releases from Hair grabs, blocking systems, defences against multiple attackers etc, the you'll be in hospital long before the TMA guy.......if you're lucky!

Go on - try to grab my hair :D

Ahem.... Multiple attackers are easy - RUN FOR THE HILLS and I find it's the MMA guys who know their limitations that will do so sooner!

[Swoop]

You get attitudes in every aspect. TMA critisise MMA, MMA critisise TMA and everyone critisises TKD.

In my opinion MMA and TMA are good for each other. MMA stems from TMA but now that MMA is getting so much attention it's gotten the traditional guys looking deeper into their own martial arts. I think it was Combat magazine (I might be wrong) that ran a series of articles on Karate submission techniques, which I knew nothing about before.

It's a case of when one imroves it pushes the other to do the same. It's helped open peoples eyes instead of having a blind following.

[YODA]

Originally posted by Swoop
You get attitudes in every aspect. TMA critisise MMA, MMA critisise TMA and everyone critisises TKD.

In my opinion MMA and TMA are good for each other. MMA stems from TMA but now that MMA is getting so much attention it's gotten the traditional guys looking deeper into their own martial arts. I think it was Combat magazine (I might be wrong) that ran a series of articles on Karate submission techniques, which I knew nothing about before.

It's a case of when one imroves it pushes the other to do the same. It's helped open peoples eyes instead of having a blind following.


Good post Swoop :D


a series of articles on Karate submission techniques, which I knew nothing about before.

I don't think the Karate people did either :D

[Andy Murray]

Ah Dave, if only you'd looked at the mods forum before jumping on me :D



Don't forget - many "MMA" gyms also teach stuff that they wouldn't be allowed to do in the sporting arena. Definately true of the SBG guys and most of the MMA people I know.

Glad to hear it, but has it become 'low percentile' due to the focus on sport?

They do if they're a MMA grappler - and it's MMA we're discussing- right?

Yup, I went off at a tangent from my own tangent :D


Agreed- but most TMA's don't train in that environment either

I agree, but then the only way to really learn about fighting is to live through a few near-death beatings.

So - if MMA bouts are not as close to reality as you can get - what is? What training format that you can apply against full resistance comes closer?

That's the million dollar question.

I find it's the opposite in my experience - most MMA people I know have a very realistic appreciation of how vulnerable they and anyone else is when "it" hits the fan. It's the TMA people I know who tend to have a false sense of security and get in fights because "Sensei says" that their reverse punch to the chest will stop a freight train. MMA people KNOW what they can and cannot do under real pressure becasue that's how they train.

I know what you mean. It's the generalisation, and futility of these discussions on web forums that gets up my nose mostly.

Go on - try to grab my hair

You mean it's a wig? :eek:


Swoop;



I think it was Combat magazine (I might be wrong) that ran a series of articles on Karate submission techniques, which I knew nothing about before.

This is great, cos there is still so much uncharted territory within the TMA. I worry that, with all the dissing that goes on of TMA, good skills may be lost to us all.

It's a case of when one imroves it pushes the other to do the same. It's helped open peoples eyes instead of having a blind following.

It has, it also seems to have made some people more blind?

[Cain]

Do I see Yoda using quotes!? :eek::eek:


PS - Good post Andy/swoop, there's been darn too much bashing of TMA by too many MMA guys!

I am a goddamn TMAist and I am more than enuff qualified to break my....errr.....other's noses ;)

|Cain|

[Andy Murray]

Yep, record thread for Yoda....more'n one line :D

[WhiteWizard]

this may be a simplistic way of looking at it but it must be kinda like the school situation where you can do a science course which tries to teach you biology chemistry and physics or you could do the ones you want or if your that interested just do all three subjects.

hope people can extract what i mean from that

[YODA]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
Yep, record thread for Yoda....more'n one line :D


Ahhhhhh Shaddap :D

See - TWO lines :D

[Andy Murray]

ROFLMAO,

Nah, you Shaddap!

This is a serious thread, I'm about to de-bunk the whole MMA scene ;)

[YODA]

Go for it - I like a good de-bunking :D

[Helm]

The trouble is, we're not even looking at MMA or TMA anymore. It seems everyone is just searching for that 'Perfect Answer';
Which is basically comprised of;

Flattery to ALL styles and systems (except Stavit ofcourse);
Taking into account that style isnt important but the man is;
That the situation matters more than the style (4 vs 1);
That, for all your training, you can still get a brick to the face;

Any of these potentially seem to close the argument. But as martial arts and fighting systems in general is evolving, by definition, there can be no correct answer. Therefore there can be no 'correct' style.

Horses for courses and all that :D

[YODA]

As we say at work....

while(horsedead=1)
{
flog;
}

[Trent Tiemeyer]

I look at it this way. I have no problem with traditional, or "classical" martial arts, as long as they train in a realistic manner, against real resistance. How hard is it to defend yourself if you tell the other guy how to attack you beforehand? (one-step sparrings, choreographed self-defense routines). Yet because many of these badasses have trained to disarm a knife-wielding attacker in a static environment, they always presume it will translate to the street. It doesn't make one iota of difference to me if you prefer to bow in, wear a gi in training, do forms, etc.

It does seem a tad ridiculous to me when someone who has a thousand point tournament wins maintains that his art is more suitable for the street, even more so when he has never had to take a good punch to the face, and keep fighting on sheer guts for thirty minutes.

MMA is competition, not an art. You can be a Wing Chun grandmaster and get in the ring if you like, that I can respect. Win or lose, MMA fighters get in the ring, and I respect that a thousand times over the so-called experts and their "hidden techniques". They have no place to go, nowhere to run, and the man across the ring from them has very nasty intentions.

Fight ONCE in a cage, and tell me it isn't a real fight.

MMA doesn't allow eyegouging or groin strikes.

Guess what? Neither does competitive Kickboxing, Karate, TKD, San Shou, Boxing, etc.

I say this all the time, but If you can't win WITH rules, what makes you think you can win without them?

[YODA]

I say this all the time, but If you can't win WITH rules, what makes you think you can win without them?

So simple - yet understood by so few :D

[Trent Tiemeyer]

PS- If you can't beat one guy in a one on one situation, you CAN NOT beat two or more. It will never happen.

Ever.

Not once.

No chance.

No.

No.

Will not happen.

[Andy Murray]

:D

[YODA]

while(horsedead=1)
{
flog;
}

:D

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by 1ONEfighting


1/ I How hard is it to defend yourself if you tell the other guy how to attack you beforehand? (one-step sparrings, choreographed self-defense routines).

2/ MMA is competition, not an art.
Fight ONCE in a cage, and tell me it isn't a real fight.

3/ MMA doesn't allow eyegouging or groin strikes.

4/ Guess what? Neither does competitive Kickboxing, Karate, TKD, San Shou, Boxing, etc.

5/ I say this all the time, but If you can't win WITH rules, what makes you think you can win without them?

1/ I agree with that actually.

2/ It's a sport......a game......so NO, it's not a fight.

3/ Why not?

4/ Nope, these are all feeble as well.

5/ Ooh, good line......who's is it?

[Trent Tiemeyer]

The line comes from the greatest and holiest guru grandmaster of all time, my high school wrestling coach, Shelby Thornton. Not sure who he stole it from.

If you don't fight against real resistance with an uncooperative partner, it is the equivalent of learning to swim in an empty pool.

Speaking of empty pool, is there any space for rent in that gigantic melon of yours?:D

[YODA]

Originally posted by 1ONEfighting
[B]The line comes from the greatest and holiest guru grandmaster of all time, my high school wrestling coach, Shelby Thornton. Not sure who he stole it from.



---- probably his releative.... Matt :D

Anyway - how do you get better at actually fighting?

Option 1: Go to your local biker bar and FIGHT! Then go to Jail.

Option 2: Get as close as you can with as few rules as the law allows and mix it up with a fellow conditioned athlete :D

Option 2 gets my vote :D

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Why would I want to pick on those poor bikers?

What holds more weight?

A) beating up some unskilled slob on the street?

B) Fighting a skilled opponent who can bench press your Honda?

I'd rather LOSE in the ring than win in the street.

[YODA]

My point exactly :D

It would be like a track athlete training with the ideal of beating joe bloggs who's running for the No.6 bus.

[Trent Tiemeyer]

LOL@ Joe Bloggs

[Andrew Green]

Ok, one thing for Traditional arts:

I think they are more effective at deescalating then MMA. So a akidoish wrist lock may be used to stop a fight that is about to happen, but if the fight does start then MMA has a advantage.

Sort of like a sucker punch, but more of a sucker submission :D

Once the fight starts there is very little chance of getting it, and if they fight back once you get it it might not work. But they can persuade a person not to fight you.

I have used things like this in the past and they've worked well for me. Same would apply to bouncers, LE, etc.

BUT I would say that while this stuff is great and serves that purpose you need that MMA type of background as well, in case it doesn't work out as planned.

I think a combination of the two is best, MMA for after it hits the fan, TMA for trying to keep it from hitting the fan in the first place.

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Since when was deescalation the exclusive realm of TMA? Ever since the UFC debuted, TMA's have been acting like third graders, saying "We can do that, we just don't want to."

The TMA elite criticize the lack of technique in the UFC and other MMA promotions, never realizing how hard it is to keep your technique under REAL pressure.

[Andrew Green]

It's not.

But these techniques are more common in TMA and cannot really be trained in a "akuve" MMA environment.

My point was that they each specialize in different things. MMA does "what to do in a fight" better then anyone, TMA does "Using force to stop a fight before it really begins" in a way that MMA cannot do in a MMA environment. That doesn't mean they don't do it, you just can't spar with it as once you move to sparring the technique is no longer appropriate.

For this you can move into scenario training, which can be done with some resistance, but is different from sport fighting.

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Nothing defuses a fight faster than seeing your opponent remove his jacket, revealing a too-big-to-not-be-steroid-fueled musculature covered with a Nebraska Wrestling XXXXL T-shirt.:)

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by 1ONEfighting


Speaking of empty pool, is there any space for rent in that gigantic melon of yours?:D

Hah, Disagree with me and I'll ban yo skinny ass MoFo!

First time I've ever agreed with Andrew Green in my life :D

[Trent Tiemeyer]

This thread is full of firsts. That is the first time I have ever had the word "skinny" used in reference to me.

[Andy Murray]

Take it as a compliment and move on MoFo :D

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by 1ONEfighting

I'd rather LOSE in the ring than win in the street.

I say this all the time, but If you can't win WITH rules, what makes you think you can win without them?

You seem to lose a lot Trent. Ever think of taking up TMA?

[Trent Tiemeyer]

12-4-1 ain't all that bad. I don't seem to be losing at this lively little debate, however.:P

I've studied many different TMAs. All were fun, but I have no illusions regarding their combat effectiveness.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by 1ONEfighting


I've studied many different TMAs. All were fun, but I have no illusions regarding their combat effectiveness.

Good. You learned something then. I'm happy for you. Tell your mates :p

[Trent Tiemeyer]

If I had friends, would I spend this much time here?

[Andy Murray]

If you're hoping to find friends here, try brushing your teeth and bleaching the body odour out of your Pink Lycra wrestling outfit.

Is it just me, or do Grapplers and MMA people have stinky sweat?

Then take up a Martial Art with some substance to it, and we might even talk to you!

[Trent Tiemeyer]

You sir, are about to be the proud recipient of a virtual b!tchslap.

Maybe we stink because we actually work up a sweat, unlike you doilie knittin' cratchsniffers.

[Trent Tiemeyer]

*wonders how he knew about the pink tights*

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by 1ONEfighting
You sir, are about to be the proud recipient of a virtual b!tchslap.

.

Very brave, coming from the other side of the Atlantic.

That's 'crotch' ya matmonkey!

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by 1ONEfighting


The TMA elite criticize the lack of technique in the UFC and other MMA promotions, never realizing how hard it is to keep your technique under REAL pressure.

My heart bleeds for you!

Poor misunderstood MMA people :rolleyes:

[Trent Tiemeyer]

"Very brave, coming from the other side of the Atlantic."

I'm right behind you.

"That's 'crotch' ya matmonkey!"

I type with an accent.

Careful, Sunshine, or your heart won't be the only thing bleeding.

*takes off tough guy hat*

[Andrew Green]

Somebody needs to put a sign in case someone wanders in on this:

http://www.petsignsplus.com/1fantasyxgif/troll.gif

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Ooh! Me too!

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Apologies if anyone is offended. I love that pic.

[Andrew Green]

LOL...

I mean...

That was very wrong :|

[Andy Murray]

You've done it now Pussy.

Lau Gar enters the Octagon!!!

Read all about it on the last page, of the least significant sports magazine in Khazakstan.

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Sorry, I don't associate with those outside of my weight class. Run along, Little boy.

[Andy Murray]

There are 'no' weight classes on the street you chicken ass MoFo.

Yet another thing you missed in TMA class ya dipstick.



( I did have higher ambitions for my 2,000th post, but hey)

[Swoop]

Sorry

[Swoop]

I'm getting a little pissed off with all this putting down other peoples arts.

There are only 2 things I hate, 1) people that refuse to believe there is something to learn in other martial arts and 2) TKD.

You guys should experiment with different things more, you might be surprised with whats out there.

[Cain]

As we say at work....
while(horsedead=1)
{
flog;
}

ROFLMAO :D:D:D:D

hehehe, must....restrain.... posting.... further....fear....being moderated

*grits teeth while restraining*

|Cain|

[Cain]

Apologies but I just could'nt restrain :( , I just HAD to do this :mad:

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It is recommended that you: (check all that apply)
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|Cain :yeleyes:|

[YODA]

Huh huh huh

This is Cool

Huh huh huh huh.....

[Cain]

*bows* :D

[in fear...]

|Cain|

[Sonshu]

There has come many points in my time as a student and instuctor where I have looked back at old TMA stuff I had learnt and realised it is not as realistic and practical as I thought it was.

Both have there place but I feel there are a large number of TMA people who are not willing to have there beliefs questioned.

I guess as time goes on common ground will be found.

I think MMA will only continue to develop where as many TMA schools and clubs do want to stick to the methods that have always been taught.

Depends if you want to move with the MMA or stay with TMA.

SONSHU

[Cain]

No doubt Sonshu, I am sure it has all to do with kata! :D:p:eek:

|Cain|

[Spike]

I wonder if Andy and 1onefighting will stop flirting for long enough to get back on topic

Quote From 1onefighting
Nothing defuses a fight faster than seeing your opponent remove his jacket, revealing a too-big-to-not-be-steroid-fueled musculature covered with a Nebraska Wrestling XXXXL T-shirt

Probably not since if you're seeing this you're probably in a gay bar and fancy getting "closer" to him anyway :)

I disagree - nothing defuses a fight like seeing a really small innocuous chinese man in the corner start to get angry.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Spike

I disagree - nothing defuses a fight like seeing a really small innocuous chinese man in the corner start to get angry.

Only if his lips don't match his voice...

[YODA]

Originally posted by Andrew Green
Only if his lips don't match his voice...


Yep - that sounds like Spike. :D

[Kwan Jang]

-I am not going to get too far into this thread since I almost feel in the middle here. I teach a MMA system that has kept to it's TMA roots. I feel it is neccesary to be well-rounded and versatile. I think that you can find too many examples of either side being unrealistic in their training if it were to cross over to street fighting or real combat. I have seen many on both sides who were realistic and effective in their training. To me TMA offers a lot of values in addition to fighting skill and ability. These should not be neglected or dismissed IMO, but unless one's goal is to preserve a static historical tradition (and that is your right), then there is no reason not to upgrade and modify your skills. I will make this observation based on personal experience, though. To the comment on extreme musculature and a 4xl shirt being a dterent; I've found when some "intellegent individual" is full of "liquid courage", that makes you one of their favorite targets. I was a national-level competitor as a strength athlete while in College and also ran security at nightclubs to help pay for school. These situations were usually pretty easy to de-esccalate, but many drunks want to "prove their manhood" by trying to take on the big "muscle-head."

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Oh yeah? My art can beat up your art.

Me? Troll? Surely you jest.

Don't make me throw my chi at you.

[YODA]

Originally posted by 1ONEfighting
Oh yeah? My art can beat up your art.

Me? Troll? Surely you jest.

Don't make me throw my chi at you.


Aaaaaaaaaaaaaagh

* Yoda runs from 1ONEfighting's chi ball.

[Trent Tiemeyer]

*laughs maniacally

[Cain]

Brush your teeth!

|Cain|

[pgm316]

The sport aspect is confusing things. From reading the thread it sounds like every student of MMA regularly fights in UFC style comp's!

In reality all it means is MMA people study a mix of arts. But Andy with his knowledge of TMA's probably has a greater MMA knowlege anyway :confused:

[Sonshu]

I see it more as stripping away the formal stuff and down to the grass routes techniques that will work in almost any enviroment.

Less situation specific and more generalist - hence no jump spinning axe kicks - despite how much they might hurt.

SONSHU

[Swoop]

As a style for fighting I believe that MMA will always be better than TMA simply because MMA has more scope to evolve.

If TMA has something incredible to offer it can be incorporated into any MMA style but it doesn't work the other way round because TMA is too rigid in it's ways and follows too many traditions.

TMA does have it's merits though. It offers art, beauty, tradition and it has a lot of history. And at the end of the day it is what inspires MMA.

You can dispute that point if you want to but you know I'm right.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Swoop
As a style for fighting I believe that MMA will always be better than TMA simply because MMA has more scope to evolve.

Wasn't that the original thinking behind JKD?
It largely became a style, with limitations, and therefor a TMA.
How does MMA have scope to evolve?

If TMA has something incredible to offer it can be incorporated into any MMA style but it doesn't work the other way round because TMA is too rigid in it's ways and follows too many traditions.

MMA doesn't have anything original to offer, as it all comes from crosstraining TMA systems in the first place. MMA practice relys on someone with intelligence introducing new concepts and comprehension into MMA training, and these concepts invariably come from TMA.

TMA does have it's merits though. It offers art, beauty, tradition and it has a lot of history. And at the end of the day it is what inspires MMA.

True, and a whole lot more besides!

You can dispute that point if you want to but you know I'm right.

Thought I'd disputed all your points.

Are you right?

[Sonshu]

On the JKD side I dont thing it will have gone as far forward in the direction it was intened as the founder never really finished it but this is to me a TMA with less politics and rules, focusing more on the techniques.

I do think that MMA does offer new things, better pressure testing for one and also someone has blended techniques from 2 styles togther and found ways of linking things - like in TMA but with a bit more of a modern feel to it.

I think there is merit to both sides but as there is friction it is healthy competition.

SONSHU

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Swoop

If TMA has something incredible to offer it can be incorporated into any MMA style but it doesn't work the other way round because TMA is too rigid in it's ways and follows too many traditions.


Do you think you could take some Wing Chun techniques, incorporate them into what you do and make them work as well as I do :confused:

What main techniques could you use better? Whats your main style or mix or arts?

[Swoop]

Actually MMA has a lot of original things to offer. It's developing as a martial art and now you're seeing things which haven't been covered in TMA in particular training methods. TMA could learn a lot from MMA but a lot of people refuse to accept it has it's merits

I love TMA's (I do wushu and wing chun) but I also love MMA. Unless you have done both FOR MORE THAN A FEW MONTHS then I don't think you can make a valid argument for either side.

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Swoop
Actually MMA has a lot of original things to offer. It's developing as a martial art and now you're seeing things which haven't been covered in TMA in particular training methods. TMA could learn a lot from MMA but a lot of people refuse to accept it has it's merits

I love TMA's (I do wushu and wing chun) but I also love MMA. Unless you have done both FOR MORE THAN A FEW MONTHS then I don't think you can make a valid argument for either side.

The bottom line is whether your TMA, MMA whatever, who the hell cares :D As long as your training is realistic with effective techniques thats all that matters.

I don't know whether I'm TMA or MMA to be honest. We train various styles of Kung Fu (3 main ones). Training is kept pretty modern and in a what works way. Often going away from the classical way for simplicity and better footwork, often looking more kickboxing than Kung Fu.

But, not all TMA's should be beaten with the useless stick!

[YODA]

Did someone say STICK?

:D

[Spike]

Quote fom Yoda:
"Yep - that sounds like Spike. "

It`s the ancient chinese art of preventing your lips synching with the words your saying. The intention being to stop your opponent noticing what utter b*llocks you`re talking.


Quote from Sonshu:
"I do think that MMA does offer new things, better pressure testing for one"

could you explain what you mean?

[Sonshu]

There are not many styles around that cover the full range of:

Stand up Striking
Stand up Grappling
Take Downs
Ground Striking
Ground Grappling

MMA and cross training do - when in sparing it allows you to be certain that you got the guy. This is pretty much the best legal pressure testing I can think of.

Hope this clears it up.

SONSHU

[Trent Tiemeyer]

I am reviving this thread because I love it dearly.

[YODA]

I'm moving this thread becasue I know where it's leading :p

[Trent Tiemeyer]

I'll be good.

[YODA]

Originally posted by 1ONEfighting
I'll be good.

I don't doubt it :p

[Trent Tiemeyer]

My question is, if this thread was in General Discussion for 70+ posts, why move it now?

[YODA]

Because when the thread was started there wasn't a MMA / VT forum. And also - as you know - there are other reasons why I would like it here - then someone else can clean it up if it gets outa hand :p

[Sonshu]

Sorry Yoda you have lost me, none of us MMA people know what you mean :Angel:

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Originally posted by YODA
Because when the thread was started there wasn't a MMA / VT forum. And also - as you know - there are other reasons why I would like it here - then someone else can clean it up if it gets outa hand :p

*gets mop and bucket ready*

[YODA]

Originally posted by Sonshu
Sorry Yoda you have lost me, none of us MMA people know what you mean :Angel:


You will - trust me :p

[Sonshu]

perhaps its best in the MMA section. I keep out of the Chinese Martial Arts section for the same reason.

Cheers

:Angel:

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Sonshu
I keep out of the Chinese Martial Arts section for the same reason.


Gonna hold you to that in 2004!

[Andy Murray]

P.S.

This whole threads a bit of a joke which many of the contributors were in on! ;)

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Aww...Why'd you have to out us?

I did go back and delete the YOU'RE A HOMO pics.

[Andy Murray]

Wish you hadn't Trent.

Had me in stitches. :p

[Chilu]

...because I know I am right :D
Anyways, the whole MMA/RBSD/TMA thing is stupid. TMA is too wide of a category to argue that vs. something else. The style I was studying had self defense, but TKD is a TMA, and how many TKD places do you see that stress self defense etc? At my TMA place, though they did have self defense, to get to it you had to advance in rank(you got a certain amount of selfdefense stuff depending on your rank) but to advance in rank it took a while and you had to go through forms till forever and ever and ever and so on... Anyways, some "TMA's" have self defense and effective stuff. On the other hand, TKD and many others don't.(TKD bashing is sooo much fun :D) MMA is just that: Mixed Martial Arts. It can have anything. Self defense or just sport. I'll use MT and BJJ as an example because they are the ones I have seen combined in MMA the most. MT+BJJ is an awesome combination, and yeah you can win fights in a cage. And yes, that transfers over to unarmed thugs on the streets. But when those thugs realize "hey, I need a knife" then you need something more. You need realistic defenses against knives etc. The israeli martial arts(kravmaga, haganah, hisardut, kapap, lotar, etc.) have good knife defenses. So, if you want good knife defenses, learn that. If you want to compete with forms, take wushu or TKD. It depends on what you are looking for.
Like I said, BJJ and TMA are terms that are too general. BJJ could be considered a TMA b/c it comes from a TMA and it is like 80 years old. MMA could be something like TKD and karate combined, and, although *If you will be offended by TKD and karate bashing please don't read* that may suck, it is still "mixed martial arts".
However, when someone says MMA, I don't take it literally and I think of vale tudo etc. but comparing MMA to TMA is like comparing cars to trucks, not specific enough to compare which is faster etc.

And thus end Chilu's Treatise on MMA vs. TMA!!

[Chilu]

There are not many styles around that cover the full range of:

Stand up Striking
Stand up Grappling
Take Downs
Ground Striking
Ground Grappling

MMA and cross training do - when in sparing it allows you to be certain that you got the guy. This is pretty much the best legal pressure testing I can think of.

Hope this clears it up.

SONSHU


Well, when I think about it this way, I was learning MMA at my kung fu school :D We had striking, takedowns, etc. and then we had shuai chiao for groundwork and more takedowns, and then Chin Na that I would have got to later for even more options. I think we had it all covered, and I liked that school a lot, and the people there, but the froms got boring and I didn't want to keep waiting to get to the fun parts :D

[Sonshu]

I would go so far as to say a lot of the people who do claim there art does a lot of ground work it is not of the same level of effectiveness or pressure tested to the levels of a MMA or BJJ or the other type ground experts.

Not saying yours is not good enough but I know little of Shuai Chiao. Could you please explain what it involves and how you do it?

Thanks

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Shuai Chiao is a chinese art similar to Judo.

[Yukimushu]

Frequently, I've seen people post about how MMA/UFC events are as close to reality fighting as you can get. Sorry, but I strongly disagree. Real fights, and what the majority of the TMA systems focus their attention on, do not occur on matted fenced off areas with an audience, referee's and rules. Don't be ridiculous. Real fights happen with broken bottles and bricks, ten or more against one. There is noone to call time when you tap out cos you can't defend the paving slab about to crush your skull.
Yeah that triangle choke is superb, pity the guys mate is kicking your head in as you apply it.

I can understand your point of view from that perspective, but then in TKD or karate tournaments do they train clinch work, or do they train on the ground... do they train toe to toe fighting?

I'd completely agree with you that mma is nothing like street combat, but a mma'ist trains in all different aspects and distances of combat, where as alot of other arts do not.

Whilst i wouldn't ever want to be on the ground in a street fight, i still feel it's better to have ground knowledge, clinch knowledge, toe to toe and striking knowledge than just kicking knowledge.

---------------- On a different note -------------------

When I seen the name of this thread, i thought you guys were closing the MMA/Submission fighting section of the thread down!!! :)

[Andy Murray]

Nah mate, to be honest the whole thing was a bit of a laugh. We only recently opened a dedicated MMA section of the forum, and Yoda moved this thread there.

MAP keeps getting labelled as a TMA forum, possibly because we do have a diverse membership, where a lot of forums are on today's fad of MMA.

It's always been the objective that people from all walks of MA life can be members here.

This is kind of an old thread, and most of the people posting knew it was a wind up in the first place, but if it serves a purpose in further discussion then great. It was originally just highlighting some of the inevitable cliches that come up. ;)

[Yukimushu]

hehe good :) cuz i love this place!!! I'm at college at the moment just browsing the threads whilst i should be doing my coursework... and then comes the end of break so i go to my lesson, and continue to browse the forum lol :D

See ya in a min! i gotta go to lesson now.

[redbull]

As we say at work....

while(horsedead=1)
{
flog;
}


dim NumberOfOpponents as Int

If NumberOfOpponents > 1 Then RUN

End If

[valetudo74]

I didn't have time to flip thru 5 pages of threads, so I'll do so after I reply. :D

MMA, at least in my view, is not necessarily an "artform" per se, but rather, the name given to a format of cross training in various martial art systems. It just so happens that the front runners of MMA are Muay Thai, BJJ, Sambo, Judo, and Boxing. Those are the style of choice for those who compete in the UFC, KOTC, or any other Vale Tudo type match. They are also the styles that have hit the MA mainstream within the past 10 years and have gained the most recognition.

Think of MMA in similar theory to JKD, "the way of no way." There's no rhyme or reason to the styles being trained, only that the styles trained are effective. If someone trains in TKD, Aikido, Krav Maga and Sambo, they're considered a mixed martial artist, hybrid fighter, etc. There exists a combination of TMA's and modern MA's rolled into one. Someone else could train in Muay Thai, BJJ, Kali, Bando, Wing Chun, Choy Le Fut, and also be considered a mixed martial artist. Again, it is merely the name of the style, not particular to any one system of fighting art.

I agree, the UFC is not as "real as it gets" when considering actual fighting. I believe it's as real as it gets for sportfighting, combining elements of stand up and ground fighting, but that's the extent of it. If you want reality based fighting, you're going to need to include some weapons training. Unfortunately, a lot of MMA fighters are closed minded toward weapons training, and they regard it as unrealistic or unreliable. So, they limit themselves to stand up and ground fighting.

To me, a true mixed martial artist is someone who has at least trained in 3 areas: standup, ground, and weapons. Within those parameters, you can incorporate survival skills training, law enforcement training, and civilian street self defense training. I'm not limiting it to just these areas, but just giving a basic overview of what I would consider true mixed martial arts. Looking at legends like Dan Inosanto give you an idea of where MMA should go. He teaches the theory of JKD within the realms of Escrima,JKD Concepts, Silat, Muay Thai, Savate, and BJJ. He's even added Capoeira to his curriculum. That to me is what MMA is about; the blending of various fighting concepts into one form.

[Chilu]

I would go so far as to say a lot of the people who do claim there art does a lot of ground work it is not of the same level of effectiveness or pressure tested to the levels of a MMA or BJJ or the other type ground experts.

Not saying yours is not good enough but I know little of Shuai Chiao. Could you please explain what it involves and how you do it?

Sorry I forgot about this thread. I am not saying that all of that is necessarily effective, I am just saying that they trained almost all ranges. It wasn't required, they were in separate classes. I never did get to try the shuai chiao though. Also, I think BJJ would be a lot better than shuai chiao because bjj has been tested over and over.

Also, I have a new definition of a TMA.
TMA: (n) Traditional Martial Arts; a martial art or combative that refuses to adapt to modern times and get rid of the BS and take in effective techniques.


Also:
Unfortunately, a lot of MMA fighters are closed minded toward weapons training Not me :D I am taking haganah now for the weapons and it covers all the ranges to some degree, and they are going to have a MMA guy come in and help out with sport stuff. Can't wait! After a while I might move on to MT, BJJ, and something with good throws like a san shou place or learn some judo(don't wanna learn too much, just a few effective throws).
(note: I haven't been going to that kung fu place for a few months now, I was just saying that some TMA places do teach all the ranges, but doesn't mean they are effective :D)

[Andy Murray]

Also, I have a new definition of a TMA.
TMA: (n) Traditional Martial Arts; a martial art or combative that refuses to adapt to modern times and get rid of the BS and take in effective techniques.

Maybe 10 years ago, but many of what you would classify as TMA are moving on now.

You need to get out, and experience some good TMA people instead of relying on second hand information on the internet forums.

If you need help with that, let me know!

[Chilu]

You must be confused, if they are moving on then they do not fit my definition of TMA anymore :D because they have adapted. By taking out the BS I don't mean the tradition, I mean taking out the stuff that is ridiculously useless. I have experience a good TMA before, so I know they can be okay. But that "tma" had adapted a little to more realistic training, so it was completely traditional. I am not refering to all asian MA's as a TMA, just ones that refuse to question whether or not their techniques work or not and some don't even spar :eek:

[Andy Murray]

You must be confused, if they are moving on then they do not fit my definition of TMA anymore :D because they have adapted. By taking out the BS I don't mean the tradition, I mean taking out the stuff that is ridiculously useless. I have experience a good TMA before, so I know they can be okay. But that "tma" had adapted a little to more realistic training, so it was completely traditional. I am not refering to all asian MA's as a TMA, just ones that refuse to question whether or not their techniques work or not and some don't even spar :eek:

Your definition of TMA is flawed!

[shootodog]

nice thread. have been looking for a place to dump this thing i read on mavr:

Now to the video contents as such: This video deals with so- called Mongolian grappling techniques. I say so-called simply because these techniques are probably not only found in Mongolian wrestling or even Shuai Jiao for that matter. The more practical and combat tested a technique is, the more likely it is to be found in the combat arts of different cultures, historical epochs etc. It may be worthwhile thinking about that for a moment : If your style of "Sichuan Cockroach Kung Fu" features complex flying kicks the likes of which are not to be found in any art anywhere else, chances are that this uniqueness is due to their not working very well in combat. As others have pointed out before, there are only so many ways in which one can move. The more functional ones have been discovered and rediscovered by many fighters in many cultures. In terms of grappling, for instance, one needs only to look at the drawings found on the walls of Egyptian tombs which pre-date Christianity by one or two thousand years or at Antique Greek vases, which show grappling techniques many of which are similar to Shuai Jiao or modern Greco- Roman wrestling and were probably used by Turkish wrestlers, Indian wrestlers etc. ..Differences lie not so much in the techniques themselves but more in the rules of engagement ,which may have differed significantly from culture to culture. Depending on the rules, certain techniques may be done in very different ways. A clear example of this would be the differences in the punching techniques of boxing when comparing bare knuckle boxing to punching with boxing gloves.

:D :D :D

[blessed_samurai]

I'm getting a little pissed off with all this putting down other peoples arts.

There are only 2 things I hate, 1) people that refuse to believe there is something to learn in other martial arts and 2) TKD.

You guys should experiment with different things more, you might be surprised with whats out there.

After reading 7 pages this one post stuck out to me and I thought all that reading would be mind numbing...jk

Swoop, doesn't the above statement seem oxymoronic? And no, I'm not calling you an ox or a moron...jk

I'm just wondering how does a person get pissed off at putting down others peoples art when he looks like he's ready to rant about TKD and in going back to part 1 of the two things he hates, doesn't rule number 2 look like you are contradicting yourself according to rule number 1.

And how does a wushu artist hate a TKD artist?!?!?!

[Chilu]

Your definition of TMA is flawed!
I think the labels 'TMA' and 'MMA' are flawed by there very nature. TMA has come to mean any asian art, and MMA has moved from its actual meaning to mostly sport based stuff(I am talking about what people think the term means, I know not all MMA'ers do stuff just for sport). However, MMA can include TMA's. Study at two of the worst McDojo's ever and you can be MMA'er.
And I do not feel my definition is flawed, but I may have not explained it how I meant to. It means that if it sticks so much to tradition that it does not move forward and adapt a little, then it is a TMA. If they DO adapt to modern combat a little, then I do not consider them a TMA.

Maybe 10 years ago, but many of what you would classify as TMA are moving on now. Many are moving on, but then they are not what I would consider a TMA. Even if they have forms and older weapons, and still have some tradition, as long as they are "moving on" I do not consider them a 'TMA'. I am not saying they aren't still traditional, but since TMA is generally an insult now, the styles that many would think of as a TMA but have adapted(people say all forms of kung fu or something are all ineffective, but some have adapted) I would not consider a TMA anymore. Just a MA in general.

[Andy Murray]

Stick a label on it.

That'll help everybody!

Remember what happened to music in 1976 when the establishment needed a shake up?

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Blessed Samurai, I think you may have missed the humor in Swoop's post.

[blessed_samurai]

Blessed Samurai, I think you may have missed the humor in Swoop's post.


Oh. Sometimes sarcasm is lost to me on a computer screen...hard to hear emotion. But my bad if it was meant as a humorous post.

[mig29]

MMA offers indeed as many ways of fighting in the real life, as one MMA can focus on real life situations as it´s developed, instead of sport oriented championships.
But let´s use this theoretical situation here:
"A fight of two man. No weapons, no clothes, no rules"
In a pure way, without any acessories, two men can´t fight BJJ or Judo; just imagine the kind of touch that will happen if a naked man use a Ippon Seoinage against another naked man...
This looks ridiculous but just think in a fight like animals of the same kind; they always use their strongest parts of the body to use in the weakest part of the enemy. If a battle like this happens between humans, the only thing that will happen will be the finger in the eyes and the kick in the balls technique. So there´s no TDA or MMA, at least no one created a kicking balls style.

[tekkengod]

MMA offers indeed as many ways of fighting in the real life, as one MMA can focus on real life situations as it´s developed, instead of sport oriented championships.
.
nail hit on head

[Sgt_Major]

Id class myself as a TMA, I do only Pencak Silat, but it covers upright striking/grappling, takedown, ground striking/grappling. What does that make my style?

Personally, Id love to train hard in the art for about 5 years, and then test myself in the ring, with a trained mma fighter. Then I could go back and say I truely AM the King!

:D