Sul Ki Do beginner - help?

[inbuninbu]

Hello!

Let me introduce myself as I haven't really been on this area before. I am just about to cycle off to my third lesson of Sul Ki Do, which is billled as a "UK variant" of Hap Ki Do. Has anyone heard of this branch of the art?

I have been studying Tae Kwon Do for three years and achieved the rank of blue belt, however at uni and during term-time I find I need something a little less exhausting and time-consuming than Tae Kwon Do. I also need something gentler physically as I'm battling with evil shin splints at the moment which effectively puts a stop to running and jumping and flying kicks.

So, any useful advice for me as a Hap Ki Do beginner? All comments and suggestions appreciated and very grateful! :D

Catch you later,

- inbuninbu

[iron_ox]

Hell all,

Is there still Sul Ki Do around? No critisism here, but I thought that the man that founded that in the UK had passed away...his name was Supard Kim. I had some dealings with him and Sul Ki Do in London starting in 1980 - he was claiming at the time to be the head of Hapkido, Hwarang Do and Kuk Sool Won in the UK at the time, and it appears that he was a student of Suh, In Hyuk in Korea before coming to the UK. In fact, he still owes me ten pounds for a license he pushed on all of us at a Hapkido school to call our selves "official" - then never produced the licenses...(boy, the interest on that alone might get me lunch somewhere! :) )

Kim applied for a berth in the them British Amateur Korean Martial Association (BAKMA) ((I think I have that right)) to teach Hapkido, but was denied because Hapkido was under the control of the Great Britian Hapkido Association at the time. So, he stepped into the hall (literally), came back 15 minutes later with "Sul KI Do" - claiming it was not the same as Hapkido.

Kim was most definately associated with Kuk Sool Won in the US, and his little brown membership books used to state as much, but he would get very upset when other Korean arts where taught (like Hwa Rang Do, for example) and he wasn't invited. I went to the first Hwa Rang Do seminar in the UK, back in the early 80's, and Kim was furious with the organizer, and showed up on his doorstep the weekend after the event. This was in Bradford. The organizer and Kim got into it and a nasty scrap ensued (details by PM only).

That was the last time I ever saw him...

For those of you that know me, and know of the story I tell of being publically smacked in Selfridge's by a Korean instructor for failing to see and bow to him - well, this is the guy...

[Yudanja]

For those of you that know me, and know of the story I tell of being publically smacked in Selfridge's by a Korean instructor for failing to see and bow to him - well, this is the guy...

Hmmm....you shoulda failed to miss face with a backhand too... (just kidding).

So some of the Korean Instructors are that way over there too huh??? I've met some real winners here.. espcially if they dont get their money.

[traz]

I have been studying Tae Kwon Do for three years and achieved the rank of blue belt, however at uni and during term-time I find I need something a little less exhausting and time-consuming than Tae Kwon Do. I also need something gentler physically as I'm battling with evil shin splints at the moment which effectively puts a stop to running and jumping and flying kicks.


Just thought I'd mention that Hapkido (most types, haven't heard of Sul Ki Do unforunately) incorporates most if not all tae kwon do kicks. So if you're looking for something long-term that won't be physically demanding...Hapkido might not be the perfect solution :P There are flying kicks and running kicks etc at the high levels.

However, I suppose, if you're just looking for a temporary body break, then it would work, but only because you're starting at a low level and wouldn't do flying kicks yet. But as an art, I'm not sure Hapkido would be less exhausting than Tae Kwon Do.

[inbuninbu]

Just thought I'd mention that Hapkido (most types, haven't heard of Sul Ki Do unforunately) incorporates most if not all tae kwon do kicks. So if you're looking for something long-term that won't be physically demanding...Hapkido might not be the perfect solution :P There are flying kicks and running kicks etc at the high levels.

However, I suppose, if you're just looking for a temporary body break, then it would work, but only because you're starting at a low level and wouldn't do flying kicks yet. But as an art, I'm not sure Hapkido would be less exhausting than Tae Kwon Do.

I only want a temporary "body break" as you put it and only something that's not exhausting on the legs... it's fine if my arms hurt after a session but for long-term health benefits I'm giving my poor abused shins a holiday from excessive impact and strain probably just till the summer.

You're right that the high, flying kicks'll come in l8er but hopefully by then I'll be ready for 'em again! Maybe even in better shape!

[Alexander]

The only time I've heard of Sul Ki Do has been whilst I was randomly browsing various University Webpages and the sports sections. I stumbled across a Sul Ki Do club at the University of Oxford, which has links to the Sul Ki Do UK page.

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~sulkido/MAIN/index.htm

That should give you some info. I remember thinking it looked a lot like Hap Ki Do at the time. I'm also blue belt TKD before taking up HKD and I find HKD a lot less tiring, but like the others have said; HKD uses all of the TKD kicks, so if you have a bad leg you may have to take it easy for a while.

See you round,
Alexander

[Kosh]

I do Hapkido and Capoeira and funnily im always alot more tired after HKD than after Capoeira.

[Hapkidoin P]

Are you guys serious? Man...I would love to be able to practice just kicks and strikes ;) without having to scrape myself off the mat a hundred times after being thrown and pinned.

I think if you get into a Hapkido Dojang that likes to throw a lot you're in for a real doosie. IMO TKD is a lot easier on the body as a whole than HKD. Maybe it's just me,though..lol.

[inbuninbu]

Are you guys serious? Man...I would love to be able to practice just kicks and strikes ;) without having to scrape myself off the mat a hundred times after being thrown and pinned.

I think if you get into a Hapkido Dojang that likes to throw a lot you're in for a real doosie. IMO TKD is a lot easier on the body as a whole than HKD. Maybe it's just me,though..lol.

I think they require different sorts of exertion and therefore produce different sorts of "results" (tiredness, injuries and pain!) TKD's a lot more dynamic I think whereas SKD (or HKD) tends to produce impact stress and tiredness because of the falling over all the time. Put the two together and boy do you have a good work out!!

[delete me]

Hi All

Shin splints... Nasty. You have my sympathy.

Common complaint of runners. The only real way to get over them is rest with GENTLE excercise. Though you never fully recover. I seen runners do 5 minute miles over a 10 mile cross country course win the race and then be informed by them that they could have gone faster if they had not been suffering from this vicious complaint ;)

Every time I stand up somebody puts me down.....So after a while I think "Hmmmm, maybe if I stay down then I'll get to rest???"
;)
Everytime I stay down somebody makes me stand up. Stand up, lie down, stand up, lie down......... :D

Try doing that for 3 hours or over a week end.

I've tried TKD over a couple of weekend seminars.

Chung Do Kwan TKD :eek: That's scary stuff. Not allowed to punch to the head, but there is nothing stopping you kicking to it!!???!!!

Competion though.......That's a whole different ball game. Seen the above, German town against Basinstoke. WWII all over again. I've done amateur boxing. 3 x 3 minute rounds with some nutter trying to knock your head off..... :D

Respect. :cool:

[evilkingston]

I think they require different sorts of exertion and therefore produce different sorts of "results" (tiredness, injuries and pain!) TKD's a lot more dynamic I think whereas SKD (or HKD) tends to produce impact stress and tiredness because of the falling over all the time. Put the two together and boy do you have a good work out!!

indeed, i find that tkd & hkd complement each other very good...
hapki!
taekwon!
grtz

[BackFistMonkey]

Are you guys serious? Man...I would love to be able to practice just kicks and strikes ;) without having to scrape myself off the mat a hundred times after being thrown and pinned.



Are you kidding thats what I love about hapkido ... the scraping up off the mat part ... but there's a reason why I like it , I needed to strengthen the ribcage and develope the abillity to take a couple body shots with out my delicate little ribs being damaged .

Its rough it hurts . Its a different kind of ouchy than what the TKD guys and gals who train with us are used to so if may be what you (inbuninbu) the poster is looking for ... Give it a shot and train hard :)

[dan_kim92]

Hell all,

Is there still Sul Ki Do around? No critisism here, but I thought that the man that founded that in the UK had passed away...his name was Supard Kim.

The organizer and Kim got into it and a nasty scrap ensued (details by PM only).



Sorry but i thought that the founder of Sul Ki Do was a guy called Mok Yang Kim?? Did you know this guy? I would love to here about the details of the scrap?? :)

[Dave Boy]

Not sure of the exact spelling - but his name was along the lines of Mung Yung Kim (definately initials M Y).

I wasn't aware of the 'scrap' Kevin is referring to - so I'll leave it to him to explain....although having met him (Kim that is), its not very hard to believe :)

Having said all that, it is true that he passed away quite some time ago. I understand that the main classes were in London and Norwich and that his brother took over the teaching. The Norwich guys kinda kept things going for a while....but ended up going their own ways and dropping the Sul-Ki-Do name and reverting back to HKD again. I figured that it had just died out (excuse the pun), but it does appear that some of the London students at the time have kept things going and are still teaching.......

Cheers,

Dave.

[iron_ox]

Sorry but i thought that the founder of Sul Ki Do was a guy called Mok Yang Kim?? Did you know this guy? I would love to here about the details of the scrap?? :)

I believe you are absolutely correct, his name was as I recall M.Y. Kim, the Supard thing was some name made up for some reason...same guy though, absolutely.

The "Bradford Smackdown" details are by PM only - I don't want to get into such stuff on the main board...so drop me a PM if interested...

[Pugil]

I believe you are absolutely correct, his name was as I recall M.Y. Kim, the Supard thing was some name made up for some reason...same guy though, absolutely.

The "Bradford Smackdown" details are by PM only - I don't want to get into such stuff on the main board...so drop me a PM if interested...

Mok Yang (Shepherd) Kim first came to the UK at the invitation of the American Military, based at RAF Mildenhall, towards the end of 1973.

He originally taught Ji Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do to beginner-level students and then introduced them to Hap Ki Do once they had reached full Green Belt in Tae Kwon Do. From as early as mid-1974, Kim called his organisation the 'World Korean Martial Art Association' (WKMA). He also issued grading certificates through the WKMA, for both Taekwondo and Hapkido.

One larger Tae Kwon Do organisation in the UK, however, continually insisted that as Kim and his organisation taught Taekwondo, they argued that Kim and his group should really come under their control. Kim resisted that move and eventually dropped the name Taekwondo in favour of 'British Kuk Sool Won'.

M.Y. Kim, and his group, 'British Kuk Sool Won', was a co-founding member of the British Association of Korean Martial Arts (BAKMA). Other member-groups of BAKMA included: the British Tae Kwon Do Asssociation; the Great Britain Hap Ki Do Association; the United Kingdom Tae Kwondo Association (yes there were two Tae Kwon Do groups, and they were featured on the bottom of BAKMA headed paper spelt in the way); and, the United Kingdom Tang Soo Do Association.

What is not so well known is that, following the release of the film: 'Enter the Dragon', and other such movies, the British Government of the day, started to become concerned about the fact that some individuals were opening up martial arts classes, and offering martial arts instruction, without having much, if any, qualifications to do so. In April 1975, Denis Howell Esq., M.P., who was Minister of State for Sport and Recreation, issued a pamphlet called: 'The Ugly Shadow' with a view to educating and protecting the general public from unscrupulous people claiming to be something they weren't.

The Government (through the 'Sports Council') had also earlier been instrumental in setting up the 'British Karate Control Commission' (their Chairman at the time was Alan T. Francis, O.B.E.) and the 'British Kung Fu Council'. This in turn had led to all other related groups coming together. i.e. as mentioned above, all Korean Martial Arts groups banded themselves together under the banner: 'The British Association of Korean Martial Arts'. BAKMA, in turn, helped to co-found the "Martial Arts Commission' (MAC) within the UK. Some years later, MAC fell out with the Sports Council, and the rest is history.

Whilst the MAC was still in existence, Kim's organisation was approached by a splinter group from the Great Britain Hapkido Association (GBHA) asking to come in under the control of Kim and his organisation. After a series of Executive Committee meetings, Kim accepted the Hapkido group, but was then forced to change the name of his organisation to the 'United Kingdom Kuk Sool Federation - including Hapkido'.

Having also resolved the earlier problem with Taekwondo, Kim then fell foul of the World Kuk Sool Association, and their Grandmaster, In Hyuk Suh, for adapting the Kuk Sool syllabus and including the teaching of Taekwondo forms. In the end, he simply changed the name of his art to 'Sul Ki Do', and the name of his organisation to the 'United Kingdom Sulkido Federation'.

The above information is about as accurate as you can get. It includes no speculation, snide rumours, or dirty lies, about a man, and very fine martial artist and martial arts instructor, who is no longer around to be able to defend himself.

Pugil

[iron_ox]

The above information is about as accurate as you can get. It includes no speculation, snide rumours, or dirty lies, about a man, and very fine martial artist and martial arts instructor, who is no longer around to be able to defend himself.

Pugil

Hello all,

I think your history is close, but not "accurate" according to the BAKMA Documents I have seen and have in my posession.

For the record, since you saw fit to quote me, I am not making any snide rumors or "dirty lies" about this man. I was there, it happened, so lets not try and sugar coat anything I say.

[Pugil]

Not sure of the exact spelling - but his name was along the lines of Mung Yung Kim (definately initials M Y).

I wasn't aware of the 'scrap' Kevin is referring to - so I'll leave it to him to explain....although having met him (Kim that is), its not very hard to believe :)

Having said all that, it is true that he passed away quite some time ago. I understand that the main classes were in London and Norwich and that his brother took over the teaching. The Norwich guys kinda kept things going for a while....but ended up going their own ways and dropping the Sul-Ki-Do name and reverting back to HKD again. I figured that it had just died out (excuse the pun), but it does appear that some of the London students at the time have kept things going and are still teaching.......

Cheers,

Dave.


Mok Yang (Shepherd) Kim

Born: 1st April 1944
Died: 13th December 1991

Buried: 23rd December 1991
Where: Hendon Cemetery, Holders Hill Road, Mill Hill, London NW7 1NB

Pugil

[Pugil]

Hello all,

I think your history is close, but not "accurate" according to the BAKMA Documents I have seen and have in my posession.

For the record, since you saw fit to quote me, I am not making any snide rumors or "dirty lies" about this man. I was there, it happened, so lets not try and sugar coat anything I say.


I also have many BAKMA (and MAC) documents and attended some of their (and MAC) meetings. I started training with Kim in 1973 and although I left his organisation in 1986 I continued to remain in contact with him right up until his death. I also went to his funeral service.

I only quoted you as your post just happened to be the one I clicked on to reply to.

Pugil

[Pugil]

I understand that the main classes were in London and Norwich and that his brother took over the teaching. The Norwich guys kinda kept things going for a while....but ended up going their own ways and dropping the Sul-Ki-Do name and reverting back to HKD again. I figured that it had just died out (excuse the pun), but it does appear that some of the London students at the time have kept things going and are still teaching.......

Cheers,

Dave.

The main classes for many years were in: Mildenhall, London, Cambridge and Oxford. The Norwich group came along later as a splinter group from the Great Britain Hapkido Association. The Norwich group did not 'revert' back to Hapkido, they went over to Kuk Sool and the World Kuk Sool Association.

There was also a Hapkido group based in Nottingham who were part of Sulkido for several years. That group still exists, although it no longer uses the name Sulkido. It is led by Sam Plumb.

The Sulkido group in Oxford still exists to this day, although I have no idea where Master Kim's brother is at this time.

Pugil

[iron_ox]

I also have many BAKMA (and MAC) documents and attended some of their (and MAC) meetings. I started training with Kim in 1973 and although I left his organisation in 1986 I continued to remain in contact with him right up until his death. I also went to his funeral service.

I only quoted you as your post just happened to be the one I clicked on to reply to.

Pugil

Hello,

I appreciate that my post my have been one you clicked on, I just wanted to ensure that people understand that I would not lie about this situation. The relationship (if it can be called that) that I had with MY Kim was not a positive one. I am happy for you, yours was.

It seems you had a long and positive relationship with Kim, and that is fine. I would still dispute some of your history, in particular that BAKMA was in existance when Kim applied to become a member, and that he could not use the name Kuk Sool Won because it was part of GBHA nomenclature - directly from the BAKMA minutes I have of his first meeting. But frankly, as he has passed away, and BAKMA is also gone, this is irrelevant.

Just wanted to set the record straight, so that no misconceptions appeared. I stand here with my identity known, and although I see nothing adversarial or malicious (my spelling is bad this time of the morning) in your posts Pugil, generally I would not even respond to someone that hides in the anonimity of a keyboard. Best wishes.

[Pugil]

Hello,

I appreciate that my post my have been one you clicked on, I just wanted to ensure that people understand that I would not lie about this situation. The relationship (if it can be called that) that I had with MY Kim was not a positive one. I am happy for you, yours was.

It seems you had a long and positive relationship with Kim, and that is fine. I would still dispute some of your history, in particular that BAKMA was in existance when Kim applied to become a member, and that he could not use the name Kuk Sool Won because it was part of GBHA nomenclature - directly from the BAKMA minutes I have of his first meeting. But frankly, as he has passed away, and BAKMA is also gone, this is irrelevant.

Just wanted to set the record straight, so that no misconceptions appeared. I stand here with my identity known, and although I see nothing adversarial or malicious (my spelling is bad this time of the morning) in your posts Pugil, generally I would not even respond to someone that hides in the anonimity of a keyboard. Best wishes.

When did I say my relationship with Master Kim was 'happy' or 'positive'. I can assure you that it was not always the case. Hence why I left him in 1986 to affiliate directly with another organisation. The reason I came in on this conversation was to 'hopefully' clarify a couple of points, and also to stand up for someone who was in no way able to stand up for himself.

It's not 'my' history you are disputing, it is 'the history'. BAKMA came in after Kim was teaching in the UK. Kim, and his students at the time (of which I was one), helped form BAKMA in the first place- that's a fact!

I'm not sure what you mean about the GBHA nomenclature, other than to say that one Fred Adams (who took over the GBHA) insisted that he was fully within his rights to use the name 'Kuk Sool Won' as it simply translates to 'National (in this case Korean) Martial Arts School or Association.

As well as the hassle he was having with Adams (GBHA) he was also at odds with In Hyuk Suh and the World Kuk Sool Association - or you could say that they were at odds with him if you like. With problems on the home front, and problems in the US (and perhaps Korea too) he stopped using the name Kuk Sool (Won) in favour of Sulkido.

With regards to your suggestion of me hiding behind the anonimity of my keyboard, I can assure you that I have no problem giving you my real name. It's just that I thought everyone uses a pen name on lists such as this, don't they?

Regards,

Pugil (aka Ollie Batts, Cambridge, UK)

[iron_ox]

Hello Ollie,

Again, please understand I have no ax to grind here, with you, Kim or Sulkido. I made mention of the fact that I generally do not respond to anonomous posts because one is never sure who one is speaking to. So, pleased to meet you Ollie.

GM Fred Adams created the GBHA, again just for the record.

THe only BAKMA documents I have show Kim coming to them to request membership. Again, I really have no horse in this race because all of that is long gone.

I do remember some of the issues with the whole Kuk Sool Won thing - anyway, didn't mean to offend if I did. Not looking to get off on the wrong key with someone whose name I just learned.

I shall move on from this conversation, hopefully we can speak again.

[KoreanWarrior]

Mok Yang (Shepherd) Kim

Born: 1st April 1944
Died: 13th December 1991

Buried: 23rd December 1991
Where: Hendon Cemetery, Holders Hill Road, Mill Hill, London NW7 1NB

Pugil

He passed at age 47, was there any reasons why he passed so young?

thks

KW

[Dave Boy]

Hi Ollie,

I've been away from the forum for some time and have read with interest your previous posts on the subject of M.Y.Kim.

Firstly, I would like to clarify that my initial post was in no way intended to disrespect Master Kim - merely a small note on my limited knowledge of his Sulkido organisation, a confirmation of his initials and the fact that he had passed away some time ago - please accept my apologies if my comments caused any offence to you, or any of his other students.

My dealings with Master Kim were limited to a couple of meetings at the Oriental Arts Centre in Norwich in the late 80's, where he presided over a black belt grading for the clubs run by Mr.Paul Smith and Mr.Micheal Barron. It was this club that reverted to the HKD name. Although I know Mr.Barron and a number of the members, I have never really asked how they became involved with Master Kim.

Best regards,

Dave.

[Pugil]

Hi Ollie,

I've been away from the forum for some time and have read with interest your previous posts on the subject of M.Y.Kim.

Firstly, I would like to clarify that my initial post was in no way intended to disrespect Master Kim - merely a small note on my limited knowledge of his Sulkido organisation, a confirmation of his initials and the fact that he had passed away some time ago - please accept my apologies if my comments caused any offence to you, or any of his other students.

My dealings with Master Kim were limited to a couple of meetings at the Oriental Arts Centre in Norwich in the late 80's, where he presided over a black belt grading for the clubs run by Mr.Paul Smith and Mr.Micheal Barron. It was this club that reverted to the HKD name. Although I know Mr.Barron and a number of the members, I have never really asked how they became involved with Master Kim.

Best regards,

Dave.



Hi Dave, Iron_Ox and all,

Please be assured that no one on this forum has (so far) caused me any offence whatsoever. I fully realise that the typed word can sometimes come across somewhat differently. Especially if typed in haste whilst supposed to be doing something else - like working, for instance! :rolleyes:

My sole reason for commenting in the first place was simply because I was one of the first people in the UK to meet and train with him - other than Americans based at USAF Mildenhall in Suffolk - and knew/know a lot of the history behind Master Kim and his various organisations.

Yes, he died quite young, and I never did find out why. If anyone else can shed light on the reason(s) I would be delighted to find out. I'm afraid I lost touch with his wife and children following the funeral, and have only spoken once on the phone to his brother since that time too.

Pugil (aka Ollie Batts)