Leg locks

[Timmy Boy]

What is the actual reason leg locks are banned in judo? I thought it was for safety, but other grappling arts seem to be able to practice them without this being an issue.

[Linguo]

I've always wondered the same thing myself. Sambo and BJJ appear to manage leglocks without much problem. Perhaps too many people with too little skill attempted leglocks, which caused injuries in competitions.

[jms137]

Come on! Somebody answer this because I am really curious myself but do not know the answer. There must be a reason. I suppose Kano himself may give an explanation in his Judo book he wrote.

At a guess I have 3 ideas:
1) That injuries to knees are harder to mend than those to elbows so the risk in practice is too great
2) Leg locks are too painful in practice?
3) That because Judo is a legacy of samurai ju-jitsu locking the leg is not seen as controlling enough because the opponents arms are free to e.g. draw a dagger and stab, eat a sandwich...

dunno.
someone enlighten me!

john

[alex_000]

LOL I don't think they did it for safety reasons. Judo is far from safe even the way it is.

[Captain_Coward]

Leg Locks were banned because of safety. Unlike locks on the elbow, locks on other joints were found to cause more serious injuries, more often, and to take longer to heal.
A Leg Lock still survives in the Katame-No-Kata, Ashi-garami.

They are only banned in Randori and Competition you may still be taught them in the curriculim of some Judo schools though.

K

[Kogusoku]

Before WW2, ashi gatame waza (leg locks) were legal and very commonly used. The knee casualty rate was allegedly phenomenal, due to some practicioners overly cranking in randori.

If you have a look at some of the older books like, Mifune's "Canon Of Judo" you'll see that in the 1950's, when the book was published, they were still practicing leg locks and now illegal neck cranks even then. It was only after judo became a sport at the Tokyo Olympics that certain rules came in and that techniques were omitted.

Before, judo randori was done from jigotai, now it's done head-to-head, shoulder-to-shoulder, like a couple of bulls fighting, pushing each other around.

[Timmy Boy]

This is all well and good until you consider that other grappling arts manage to retain their leglocks without guzillions of injuries.

[Kogusoku]

This is all well and good until you consider that other grappling arts manage to retain their leglocks without guzillions of injuries.

Yeah, but not all grappling arts are in the Olympics. They need that shiny, whiter than white appearance to curry favour.

And who said that they are not taught anymore? Those leglocks are still taught in judojo, if you know the right people.

[Timmy Boy]

Yeah, but not all grappling arts are in the Olympics. They need that shiny, whiter than white appearance to curry favour.

Ah, now this makes more sense! :)

[Ikken Hisatsu]

thats a good point

[Timmy Boy]

thats a good point

Yeah it was, cheers Gunyo.

[Kogusoku]

No worries Tim.

[Juego Todo]

Again, great posts.

I'm just thinking the same with wrestling: Why doesn't Greco-Roman attack the lower body? Why doesn't Freestyle concentrate on attacking the upper body of an opponent?

I guess Judo doesn't retain leg-locks, just "because"...

(Lame answer, I know!)

:Angel:

[Trinity]

in training I have put on alot armbars and alot of knee bars or leg locks fortunatly i have never done somebody's arm but i have done a couple of knees on people. I think the reason it is banned in alot of randori is it comes on pretty quick an armbar you can fight a little bit (little little bit) but a knee bar, there seems to be a fine line between tap and snap. The people i have spoken to in the grappling field agree knee bars nasty nasty.

[aml01_ph]

Again, great posts.

I'm just thinking the same with wrestling: Why doesn't Greco-Roman attack the lower body? Why doesn't Freestyle concentrate on attacking the upper body of an opponent?


Greco-Roman has its focus on takedowns and pins. Submission is not even an important part of the curriculum (if presented at all).

[Juego Todo]

Greco-Roman has its focus on takedowns and pins. Submission is not even an important part of the curriculum (if presented at all).

Thanks for your reply. I guess what I was trying to say was more hypothetical, almost like trying to figure out why birds chirp, why snow is white, etc. I have trained in both Greco-Roman & Freestyle since my teens (in secondary school, there were wrestling try-outs, so I'd made the team based on my concurrent training in judo at the time), so I am aware of their content and differences.

Arts remain different with varying focus on techniques "just because" is what I'd meant. I mean, why are you, you? Why is he, he? If they were all the same, then we wouldn't have different names for them. We should just accept things for what they are: some do this, others do that. That's all I'd meant. Sorry for the confusion.

Osu...

[lord s]

I heared that Judo is from BJJ but it is inventor took out all the dangorous moves and put the safe moves in Judo
is that right?

[Juego Todo]

I heared that Judo is from BJJ but it is inventor took out all the dangorous moves and put the safe moves in Judo
is that right?

Judo originated from Japanese Jujutsu. Judo's founder (Kano, Jigoro) did take out many of the dangerous moves (mostly atemi-waza, although you could see them in the kata), just as you'd stated.

BJJ originated from Judo & Japanese Jujutsu via Esai "Count Koma" Maeda, who taught the Gracie family out of appreciation for them helping him get settled in Brazil. Maeda was also a student of Kano.

[Captain_Coward]

haha these posts go round and round and round...........

good concise post Juego

K

[BRECKDOG]

leg locks, in all their forms are fully part of the Judo techniques- but obviously banned from sport (along with neck, spine cranks for similar reasons).

The reason is that the potential injuries from leg locks (not ankle locks ) are severe and take a hell of a long time to heel-

The fact is Sport Brazilian Ju Jitsu also banned leg locks for a long time- for the same reason.
They only re introduced them about 10 years ago cos the Sambo guys who are leg lock masters had too much of an advantage in NHB fights- Ive have read reliably that there was a marked rise in injury rates and alot of old BJJ guys are not mad about them- but no ones gonna advertise these aspects.

and like anything it comes down to training with sensible people and not taking silly risks.

[Sonshu]

Hi Breakdog

Spot on bud - Leg locks are harder to put on that say an ankle lock or heel hook but are seen by many pure BJJ people as a lower form of submission.

Also people may notice in Sombo comps you are not able to pull closed guard because it is seen as boring and slows the action down (I do agree here myself) so guards are easier to break. The Sombo guys are fantastic leg and ankle lock fighters by far the best I have seen.

They do often keep their legs inside the attackers (not pulling even an open guard) this protects from ankle and leg locks and can make many more sweeps available to you.

I like leg locks and ankle locks for anyone here who has trained with me - cant get enough of em as there good to set up and actually fun!

[mateo]

If you watch Kyuzo Minune video from the 1950s you'll also notice that leglogs were being taught as part of the formal curriculum. I'm not sure but I'd imagine that they weren't allowed in competition even at that date.

The thing is there was lots of stuff (and still is at many dojos) that is taught and practised in the dojo that isn't allowed in competition. The more recent emphasis on only practising the techniques which will allow for wins competition is reflective of a shift in philosophy where people interpret competition as judo's "reason for being" and define judo as only a sport.

There are many Brazilian juijitsu dojo which also by in large prefer to steer away from the leg locks but the nature of the sport is steering them the other way, as more and more competitions allow for these techniques the schools feel they have re-employ them. They site the injury rate as the reason for steering clear of them.

In Ontario I've never been to competition that allowed for anything other that "straight line" manipulations of ankles and knees.

It would be interesting to look at the injury rate in Sambo and see if this more of a perceived fear than a real one.

[Captain_Coward]

Yup all very true mate,
I presume perhaps wrongly that there was enough evidence as in actual injuries that the decision was taken, that is always the way i have understood it rather than a belief that the tecniques were dangerous.
But on this subject my coach, competitive Judoka for many a decade competes in a couple Sombo Competitions(he won the Scottish title) and he breaks his ankle. Could be completely unrelated but you never know.

K

[mateo]

I would be inclined to think that leg and ankle locks increase levels of injury in competition but perhaps that is because the people I train with them are less adapt at performing and receiving them than they are at, say, armlocks.

If one lacks sensitivity perhaps they will put them on too quickly or dangerously and perhaps tap too late. I've limped around for a week + at times because an ankle lock, imperfectly placed, left me feeling that while the ankle lock was hurting it was nothing that I couldn't take and fight out of. And at that moment it wasn't. An hour later was quite a different matter! Sambo players may have greater control of their technique (when they wish to) because of increased sensitivity in working with them. The Japanese submission fellows seem to be able to perform the techniques at a very high level of play also.

And I think we can remember Ken Shamrock vs Don Frye? - I won the fight but my ankles are broken!

Those techniques are nothing to sneeze at.

[ivica]

FYU, I posted a small poll/thread concerning leg locks in judo.
Osu!