Boxing work against karate?

[INTERNAL BOXING]

Does boxing work against karate? Anytime I see a Karate guy go against a boxer the boxer gets his but kicked because of all the elbows, kicks, kness and overall more rounded style of the karate guy.

Do you guys think boxing can work against karate or is it to limited by just using the hands since it has no kick, elbow, or knee defences?

[Ikken Hisatsu]

strange, every time i see a boxer vs karateka its generally the other way round unless its a kyokushinkai. its all about the way you train not what you train with. you dont think tyson could kill most martial artists?

[INTERNAL BOXING]

No I don't I think he was highly overated.

[Yukimushu]

Yes boxing can work against Karate. Just like Karate can work against boxing, Wing Chun can work against <place any style here>.

It's been said time and time and time again; it's not the style, its the fighter... (write it down on a postit note and stick it on your monitor :) )

[holyheadjch]

It really does depend. If the karateka kept his distance and predominantly used his feet then the boxer would lose a lot of the time. That said if the boxer got inside he could potentially do a lot of damage to the karateka because of boxers tendencies to throw a lot of punches, and the tendency of karateka not to be built like boxers.

As for Mike Tyson, anyone of my Sensei would make him cry for his mama.

[INTERNAL BOXING]

Thanx guys Im just just trying to get some diffrent opnions besides why boxing is better I think karate takes to much abuse on the forums.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

As for Mike Tyson, anyone of my Sensei would make him cry for his mama.


uh huh. so uh, when do they make their fighter debuts?

[Yukimushu]

As for Mike Tyson, anyone of my Sensei would make him cry for his mama.

No-one could ever make Tyson cry for his Mom. He's the kind of fighter who'd laugh and ask for more. There's no breaking Tysons fighting spirit.

[holyheadjch]

last time I checked Ikken, the Queensbury rules dont allow for mawashigeris, let me know if they've changed.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

so? its not the technique you use, its your skill level. your sensei doesnt even come close to his skill level (no offense here, most people dont)

not to mention that he is a professional fighter as well as being a street thug when he was younger...

[Timmy Boy]

It really does depend. If the karateka kept his distance and predominantly used his feet then the boxer would lose a lot of the time. That said if the boxer got inside he could potentially do a lot of damage to the karateka because of boxers tendencies to throw a lot of punches, and the tendency of karateka not to be built like boxers.

It's easier to get inside kicks than you think. And how does what style you do change your build?

As for Mike Tyson, anyone of my Sensei would make him cry for his mama.

Why is that?

[Yukimushu]

last time I checked Ikken, the Queensbury rules dont allow for mawashigeris, let me know if they've changed.

If you honestly believe your instructor could hurt Mike Tyson, then you should inform him of K1. They do cross style compititions against boxers, thai boxers - The rewards are quite substantial!.

[holyheadjch]

One of my instructors did enter an MMA a couple of years ago, and was doing well until one his fights got stopped because he had a bloody nose, which I think is a bit daft for a sport claiming to be as much like streetfighting as possible. If only street punks stopped when blood was spilt

[Shantari]

sure maybe ur sensei could make Tyson cry to his mamma, but it would be by means other than fighting

[Timmy Boy]

One of my instructors did enter an MMA a couple of years ago, and was doing well until one his fights got stopped because he had a bloody nose, which I think is a bit daft for a sport claiming to be as much like streetfighting as possible. If only street punks stopped when blood was spilt

So the long and the short of it is, he lost?

[Ikken Hisatsu]

awesome, your sensei is an unknown mma fighter who once lost a match cos he got his ass beat. thats great. when he wins the world title belt give us a yell.

[holyheadjch]

It's easier to get inside kicks than you think. And how does what style you do change your build?


Boxers tend to have greater upper body build than Karatekas, whereas Karatekas tend to have greater lower body mass than boxers.

[holyheadjch]

I said he fought in one tournament, and yes he lost the match, but as for getting his ass beat, not how he or anyone who was there tells the story.

[Yukimushu]

One of my instructors did enter an MMA a couple of years ago, and was doing well until one his fights got stopped because he had a bloody nose, which I think is a bit daft for a sport claiming to be as much like streetfighting as possible. If only street punks stopped when blood was spilt

The number 1 priority is the safety of the fighters; at all times. Fights do get stopped because of continously bleeding cuts. It happens in most legit compition styles; it's common sense if you ask me!

But that is another subject for a different part of the MAP forums.

[Timmy Boy]

So your basis for thinking that your amateur (not an insult, but the truth, just like most instructors including mine) karate sensei could beat an unhinged professional boxer up is that he once lost an MMA match by TKO?

[holyheadjch]

That post was in response to the 'he should go enter one of these competitions blah blah blah' post, and as for beating Tyson, I think it would be an interesting match, one that would be over quickly but still interesting...and if you are so sure that a boxer would beat my Sensei then surely you must believe that a boxer would beat any MA, because they all have the same strengths and weaknesses.

[Timmy Boy]

That post was in response to the 'he should go enter one of these competitions blah blah blah' post, and as for beating Tyson, I think it would be an interesting match, one that would be over quickly but still interesting...and if you are so sure that a boxer would beat my Sensei then surely you must believe that a boxer would beat any MA, because they all have the same strengths and weaknesses.

But why would it be over quickly? If your post wasn't intended to prove his ability to beat Tyson, then what WOULD you base your assertion on?

As for "a" boxer beating your sensei, that's not what I said. I just find it ludicrous to believe that ANY amateur martial artist (excluding olympic athletes) would ever beat a professional. You have to realise that people like Tyson are in a league above the kind of instructors who teach the likes of me and you.

[holyheadjch]

I think it would be over quickly because I think dominance would be set from the off. If the karateka landed a good kick or sweep early on then it would at the very least daze the boxer who isn't used to being kicked, but if the karateka failed to keep out of the boxers range and got caught on the ropes then I think the boxer would be able to unload on the karateka.

I've met a few professional boxers (no-one huge to be fair) and found the quality gap between amateur boxers and professional boxers to be smaller than you imagine. There is a gap there, but not as wide as in soccer or tennis. I have seen amatuer boxers beat professionals in point sparring, which is where they all came from in the beginning.

[Timmy Boy]

I think it would be over quickly because I think dominance would be set from the off. If the karateka landed a good kick or sweep early on then it would at the very least daze the boxer who isn't used to being kicked, but if the karateka failed to keep out of the boxers range and got caught on the ropes then I think the boxer would be able to unload on the karateka.

I think you are perhaps underestimating the ability of the boxer to close the distance quickly. I reckon your guy would get about one chance against Tyson to land a decent kick or sweep. It would all rest on that one kick and I just don't fancy it myself.

I've met a few professional boxers (no-one huge to be fair) and found the quality gap between amateur boxers and professional boxers to be smaller than you imagine. There is a gap there, but not as wide as in soccer or tennis.

I would still hazard a guess that Tyson has trained a LOT harder than your instructor in his time.

[holyheadjch]

Fair enough, if Tyson ever knocks my Senseis' beer over in a bar and a fight ensues, I'll let you know the outcome.

[Goju]

The only thing that could be done to Tyson in such a situation would be low kicks, and they better be damn fast and hard. I have a really good low roundhouse and I highly doubt it would slow Tyson down. As soon as he is in punching distance he's won unless you are a boxer of equal skill. To win you would have to keep him at bay with kicks and strikes or grapple with him and get him on the ground. Both of those are probably very hard to do against him, he's strong as hell, fast as hell, and he hits real hard, he's also a pro boxer meaning he knows when to attack and how to defend and he's got many years of conditioning and training under his belt. I think only a pro maist could beat him. I would like to think my sensei could beat him, but I don't know about that.

As for boxing working against karate... it can, but the outcome of such a fight would depend on so many different variables.

[shootodog]

As for Mike Tyson, anyone of my Sensei would make him cry for his mama.

could've, should've, would've. unless it happen, it doesn't count. i could say that i could beat rickson gracie all i want but unless it happens it don't mean anything.

[McGann]

Botha did decent in K1 and was robbed by the judges in the 2004 GP. He hardly threw any kicks (though he did check a couple leg kicks) and would've won it if not for the biased judges.

And he's not half the boxer Tyson was.

[tekkengod]

strange, every time i see a boxer vs karateka its generally the other way round unless its a kyokushinkai. its all about the way you train not what you train with. you dont think tyson could kill most martial artists?

HA!!!! ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! Shamrock. Liddle. coture. gracie. silvia....and the list goes on. good stuff man, my sides hurt.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

i said most, not the elite of mma. funnily enough most martial artists arent in the ufc or pride :rolleyes:

[Timmy Boy]

HA!!!! ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! Shamrock. Liddle. coture. gracie. silvia....and the list goes on. good stuff man, my sides hurt.

So you think Shamrock, Liddell, Gracie, Silva, Couture etc are good examples of "most martial artists"? Now MY sides are hurting!

[tekkengod]

well, as far as martial artists that are on the professional level. if he meant most martial artists as in the average person who attends classes, then yeahm hes right becuse tyson is a professional athlete, so comparing him to normal people dosen't say much about him. so i compared him to other professional athletes.

[Yukimushu]

Hey, lets not forget folks.

The out come of all these fantasy fight's we are creating in our lil mind's all depend on the ruleset.

[tekkengod]

UFC rules. reality.

[NaughtyKnight]

LoL, Tyson is an animal, he didnt even notice that he had broken his ribs after he fell off his motor bike, untill he finished his 1000 crunches.

Oi Yuki why you never on msn. :cry:

[tekkengod]

:rolleyes: sure

[tekkengod]

ok, i don't want to hijack the thread but, do you honestly think he would last more than around with any of the previously mentioned legends? I like to reguard most of you with more intellignece than that.

[Yukimushu]

ok, i don't want to hijack the thread but, do you honestly think he would last more than around with any of the previously mentioned legends? I like to reguard most of you with more intellignece than that.

Again; it would all depend on the ruleset. Tyson has always trained to fight under boxing rules, and such a fighter as Couture has always trained under MMA rules.

[NaughtyKnight]

You also have to rememeber that tyson knows no pain. He has been fighting for years. A good boxer with a larger range such as lewis manages to beat him though.

[tekkengod]

ok, about the rule set. MMA rules. Reality.

[NaughtyKnight]

lol, who really cares. If i happen to find myself in a fight with tyson I'll write you guys a letter tellin you about it, from my hospital bed :D

[Ikken Hisatsu]

not sure if they deliver from the grave ;)

[NaughtyKnight]

lol, dun worry god will deliver it for me.

[Timmy Boy]

well, as far as martial artists that are on the professional level. if he meant most martial artists as in the average person who attends classes, then yeahm hes right becuse tyson is a professional athlete, so comparing him to normal people dosen't say much about him. so i compared him to other professional athletes.

I'm pretty sure he meant most martial artists, otherwise he would have said.

[shootodog]

HA!!!! ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! Shamrock. Liddle. coture. gracie. silvia....and the list goes on. good stuff man, my sides hurt.

you see, in a fight between any mma'er vs. tyson, it would be a 50-50 proposition. if tyson tags any of those you mentioned, it would be curtains for them. on the flipside, if they could ground the man, they could gnp or even submit him. if tyson lands on top and he got to get off a couple, it would be curtains.

specially since some of those you mentioned are way lighter than mike. weight in a fight makes a whole lot of difference. if mike accidentally tripped and pinned royce, royce would find it hard to get the leverage to get mike tyson's mass off him.

[Timmy Boy]

specially since some of those you mentioned are way lighter than mike. weight in a fight makes a whole lot of difference. if mike accidentally tripped and pinned royce, royce would find it hard to get the leverage to get mike tyson's mass off him.

To be fair, didn't Royce submit Akebono?

[shootodog]

Does boxing work against karate? Anytime I see a Karate guy go against a boxer the boxer gets his but kicked because of all the elbows, kicks, kness and overall more rounded style of the karate guy.

Do you guys think boxing can work against karate or is it to limited by just using the hands since it has no kick, elbow, or knee defences?

this is a first. i haven't heard of a karateka beat a boxer since the advent of the karate revolution back in the 60s.

[shootodog]

To be fair, didn't Royce submit Akebono?

sure he did. but akebono wasn't trying to remove royce's head. hell, akebono wasn't doing much of anything.

[Timmy Boy]

sure he did. but akebono wasn't trying to remove royce's head. hell, akebono wasn't doing much of anything.

Oh yeah, but I thought the point was about weight being hard to shift?

[Ikken Hisatsu]

and he had a hell of a time shifting it, but I agree- i believe royce could handle tysons weight. Tyson is big, but for a heavyweight he isnt exactly george foreman.

[shootodog]

Oh yeah, but I thought the point was about weight being hard to shift?

lol! you got me there! in general terms, it's hard to get leverage on a heavier fighter. there.

[wcrevdonner]

Does boxing work against karate? Anytime I see a Karate guy go against a boxer the boxer gets his but kicked because of all the elbows, kicks, kness and overall more rounded style of the karate guy.

Do you guys think boxing can work against karate or is it to limited by just using the hands since it has no kick, elbow, or knee defences?

Okay...

1) Boxers know how to cheat; they are told to use elbows when they can, to hit the throat/face etc, except they do it a lot more sneakily than others do. Mike tyson was a great example of this; if he swung a hook/uppercut and missed with the fist, he would carry on through with the elbow; sometimes I think he deliberately missed so that he could hit with an elbow. Headbutts are in there as well, ask yourself how many times a fight has been stopped because of a 'stray' headbutt?

2) Yuki Im loving the post it note comment - its always the fighter unless you train at a bad club.

3) For anyone who talks about taking Tyson...the man was an animal - literally. He was one of the hardest hitters in boxing ever, (that alone should make him scary.) He also head butted and bit his opponents purposefully in the ring. As for 'streetfighting', the reason he took up boxing was because he kept on mauling people 'on the street' as it were. His aggression alone in the ring put most seasoned of fighters off fighting him. As his peak, I don't know many who would have taken him - a great example showing that aggression and balls really does make a top fighter.

[NaughtyKnight]

Okay...

1) Boxers know how to cheat; they are told to use elbows when they can, to hit the throat/face etc, except they do it a lot more sneakily than others do.

Last time I heard using your elbows in a sneaky way isnt cheating. Unless your talking about a Boxing ring fight of course.

[tekkengod]

you know i bet soon enough some time with in the next few years. we,ll see that fight, or one similar. cause dana white already put up 5 milllon dollars that the winner of the Ultimate fighter would beat the winner of the contender. so once that goes down it'll spawn lots of conversation and sooner or later. its bound to happen. maybe not mike and the afore mentioned but certainly two big names.

[GojuKJoe]

Tyson is not invincible, he has been knocked out by people before. Just because he is a hard puncher, it doesn't mean he can beat everybody. As for karate vs boxing, if they are both good at what they do, and are fighting under mma rules, or no rules, I'd put my money on the karateka everytime. The whole, "if the boxer got inside past the kicks" argument is bull aswell, because I learn to fight from all ranges, and so does anyone else who does good karate. A good karate fighter should be able to do everything a boxer can do, plus a hell of a lot more.

[Timmy Boy]

Tyson is not invincible, he has been knocked out by people before. Just because he is a hard puncher, it doesn't mean he can beat everybody. As for karate vs boxing, if they are both good at what they do, and are fighting under mma rules, or no rules, I'd put my money on the karateka everytime. The whole, "if the boxer got inside past the kicks" argument is bull aswell, because I learn to fight from all ranges, and so does anyone else who does good karate. A good karate fighter should be able to do everything a boxer can do, plus a hell of a lot more.

A boxer will probably be far, far better within the punching range than a karateka of even size and build. Besides, we are talking about what to expect from most karateka, not just the really good ones like kyokushinkai.

[Goju]

:cry: ....and goju? :cry:

[holyheadjch]

Who only Kyokushinkai?

If memory serves the founder of Kyokushin trained in both Shotokan and Goju Ryu, and apart from the full contact sparring not much was altered.

[Timmy Boy]

Who only Kyokushinkai?

If memory serves the founder of Kyokushin trained in both Shotokan and Goju Ryu, and apart from the full contact sparring not much was altered.

I didn't say only kyokushinkai.

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Martial artists in general tend to discount boxing automatically because of the limited tools that boxing employs. Just because you can throw elbows, knees, head kicks, etc. doesn't mean you will get the chance to use them, especially against a boxer of Tyson's caliber.

You had better be able to take Tyson out with one strike, because that is all you will get. Good luck. Even a past-prime Tyson today won't be KO'ed with a single strike. Tyson's footwork would negate kicking range in short order, and then you are fighting on the inside. Hope you are comfortable there, because you will stay there until Tyson decides what he wants to do with you. I would predict about 2.3 seconds.

It's fun to dream, though.

[GojuKJoe]

A boxer will probably be far, far better within the punching range than a karateka of even size and build. Besides, we are talking about what to expect from most karateka, not just the really good ones like kyokushinkai.

He may be better at punching, but I wouldn't say "far, far" and I still think a good karate fighter will have the advantage at that range. In goju ryu, almost everything we do is in that close range. Boxers are good punchers, but they're not gods. What you people seem to be talking about, are bad karate fighters against good boxers.

[shootodog]

Martial artists in general tend to discount boxing automatically because of the limited tools that boxing employs. Just because you can throw elbows, knees, head kicks, etc. doesn't mean you will get the chance to use them, especially against a boxer of Tyson's caliber.

You had better be able to take Tyson out with one strike, because that is all you will get. Good luck. Even a past-prime Tyson today won't be KO'ed with a single strike. Tyson's footwork would negate kicking range in short order, and then you are fighting on the inside. Hope you are comfortable there, because you will stay there until Tyson decides what he wants to do with you. I would predict about 2.3 seconds.

It's fun to dream, though.

and on a trivial note:

tyson doesn't only know boxing. tyson has also trained in 52 handblocks.

another triviality:

boxers also are trained to "cheat". as someone already posted, they are taught to use thier elbows and head. they also know how to kneebutt during a clinch. not so obvious but they knock knees with you and it's painful.

[NaughtyKnight]

Martial artists in general tend to discount boxing automatically because of the limited tools that boxing employs. Just because you can throw elbows, knees, head kicks, etc. doesn't mean you will get the chance to use them, especially against a boxer of Tyson's caliber.

You had better be able to take Tyson out with one strike, because that is all you will get. Good luck. Even a past-prime Tyson today won't be KO'ed with a single strike. Tyson's footwork would negate kicking range in short order, and then you are fighting on the inside. Hope you are comfortable there, because you will stay there until Tyson decides what he wants to do with you. I would predict about 2.3 seconds.

It's fun to dream, though.

Sums it up very nicely.

[tekkengod]

Martial artists in general tend to discount boxing automatically because of the limited tools that boxing employs. Just because you can throw elbows, knees, head kicks, etc. doesn't mean you will get the chance to use them, especially against a boxer of Tyson's caliber.

You had better be able to take Tyson out with one strike, because that is all you will get. Good luck. Even a past-prime Tyson today won't be KO'ed with a single strike. Tyson's footwork would negate kicking range in short order, and then you are fighting on the inside. Hope you are comfortable there, because you will stay there until Tyson decides what he wants to do with you. I would predict about 2.3 seconds.

It's fun to dream, though.

good post, i agree with most of that, but i would think that the major factor here would be a take down and a submission. which against an MMA fighter of equal caliber the sub could be applied just as quickly as tysons decisions on attack meathod.

[tekkengod]

and as far as the "single strike" theory. {granted getting the clinch would be a task} it could be done. and from there one good powerful straight knee from someone like shamrock or belfort would bring the mop a calling.

[Gyaku]

Could the average karateka take on Tyson and win? No way! Tyson is an animal!

But could a seasoned karateka take on a boxer yes, of course.

Tactically, boxers can deal with other boxers, but karate has a better tactical range, we can deal with punches and kicks, but a boxer only works with punches. This leaves them with a large skills deficit. Karateka should win.

My money is on the karateka

[Nick K]

sure maybe ur sensei could make Tyson cry to his mamma, but it would be by means other than fighting

Is that really, really rude?

[sean]

No I don't I think he was highly overated.

:eek:

His ego may of been his main weapon but within the mid to short range Tyson was spectacular.

[notquitedead]

Is there a point to this thread?

While I don't believe in the whole "it's the fighter, not the style, the style doesn't matter one little bit" thing, there is much more at work than style. On average, I'd bet boxers train harder, just like anyone involved in a sport does.

As for boxing having limited techniques...in a striking match punches are usually used more than kicks. It's easier to close the gap than to maintain it. To stay in kicking range against someone who wants to get close, you have to run around a lot and it's kind of hard to throw effective kicks while you are running.

[Trent Tiemeyer]

good post, i agree with most of that, but i would think that the major factor here would be a take down and a submission. which against an MMA fighter of equal caliber the sub could be applied just as quickly as tysons decisions on attack meathod.

A takedown and a submission are possible, but this thread is regarding boxing vs. Karate, not grappling or MMA. Tyson is a striker's nightmare. In his prime, he was untouchable.

[tekkengod]

ok you're right. i'll let this one go.

[Juego Todo]

Since this thread is based on speculation, without a purely black or white answer, let's try a very basic comparison between boxing (pure Queensbury rules, no cheating tactics) & karate (most styles, not all) training methods.

1) Karate
-use of all limbs & body weapons
-full-body targets

Boxing
-use of hands only as impact weapons
-above the belt only

2) Karate
-general, overall body conditioning for excellent physical fitness (e.g. cardio, calisthenics, flexibility, etc.)

Boxing
-total body conditioning, especially to prepare the body to absorb corporal blows (e.g. use of medicine ball, roadwork, etc.)

3) Karate
-practice of kata & solo techniques in the air

Boxing
-shadowboxing

4) Karate
-practice of striking against makiwara, focus mitts, heavy bags, air/body shields, etc.

Boxing
-practice of striking against focus mitts, heavy bags, speedbags, double-end bags, etc.

5) Karate
-initiation to free-sparring, usually yellow belt or so; very little or no contact with/without lightly padded gloves in case of accidental blows

Boxing
-initiation to sparring, usually after a few months of drills & conditioning; light contact with padded gloves & headgear to better absorb blows to the body

6) Karate
-from novice to black belt levels, competitions are usually on a non- to light- to semi-contact basis; drawing blood or making opponent's head go back could disqualify karateka based on excessive contact ruling; most (not all styles) tournaments discourage full-contact & disqualify accordingly

Boxing
-from novice to amateur to pro levels, etc., competitions are always full-contact; knocking down/out an opponent is encouraged to get the W, although more points accumulated can get the W, too

7) Karate
-although a lot of weapons are learned and practiced, actual use of such weapons are banned due to the danger-factor of trying them out on a practice/tournament opponent; most karateka will never know how it's like to actually use a spearhand to the eye or throw a low mawashi geri to break a kneecap until they actually come across an attacker on the street (karateka must stop short with a partner for safety reasons; hitting targets are not quite the same)

Boxing
-although only two weapons are allowed, boxers practice their basic 5 punches into various combinations against both targets & live opponents
-they are allowed to explore the use & effect of all their arsenal (not as many as karate, etc.) in the ring, on a live opponent, with full-contact


I'm not saying that one style is necessarily better than another, although I may personally lean towards one more than the other. Both fighting methods have their pros & cons. I believe that it all comes down to the fighter & how good he/she is at his/her craft. All things being equal, if a good boxer came up against a good karateka, then the safe thing to say might be that whomever throws the first good shot & connects successfully stands the better chance of winning. Remember, there is really no black or white answer. Everything in this thread is really speculatory.

Having said that, if I was a betting man & I had to choose whom I think would better be able to watch my back, I would put my money on the boxer. Yes, I would risk the chance of losing my money but, hey, if I've got to choose only one side, I'd choose the boxer. The initial solo-training methods may be similar, but similarties end when actual sparring comes into play.

Why? The boxer gets introduced to heavy conditioning and full-contact sooner than the average karateka. I'd bet that many karateka (not all) have not even truly engaged in full-contact. Not saying that it's a bad thing, only stating that most karateka get involved in points kumite.

Of all the boxers worldwide, when's the last time you'd heard of a boxer who never hit, or got hit, full-contact? They do so all of the time at the local gyms. Furthermore, how many karateka (including senseis) in local dojos have actually experienced full-contact training every practice session (e.g. full body shots, repeated punches to the nose/mouth, etc.)?

You don't have to get defensive with me and argue until the end of the world. Let's just try to be as objective as possible and, most importanly, let's be realistic and honest with ourselves. Without practicing giving/taking shots to the gut or the head in practice, do we honestly think that we could hold-up against a boxer who's craft revolves around full-contact? How would a boxer react to a blow inflicted by a karateka who has only competed/trained in semi-contact? Fantasies should not take up the time that could be spent training more realistically.

My respects to all of you boxers & karateka out there...

[Shantari]

*applause*

[tekkengod]

very well put.

[NaughtyKnight]

Very nice post

[Yukimushu]

Indeed :) a very well thought out post! :)

[Gyaku]

Juego Todo, a really great post, well done. However if I could add a few points.

First we need to differentiate between an amatuer boxer and a pro. If we're talking pro boxer vs karateka, the karateka wil be on the canvas in no time..but not in the case of the amatuer boxer.

I have cross-trained in boxing. While I have the greatest respect for boxers (my father was a boxing champ in his day) I don't believe they can deal very easily with the added complexity of kicks and the vast changes in basic tactics that entails.

Here is a simple example:

Boxers tend to fight according to their build. So a boxer with a long reach will tend to play on that. they'll use jabs and right crosses, very rarely alowing themselves to get too close to their shorter reach opponant.

The problem is that the above game plan which they have used all their boxing careers suddenly won't work. a kick can out distance a jab all the time. Tactically therefore the boxer will be caught out and will most likely be ill as ease agaisnt a good kicker. He might not have the skills to close the gap safely.

Now I have trained in boxing and sparred with boxers and I can say that in my experience this is true.

Of course if you give the boxer a lot of experience with a kicker that will change the equation. But most amatuers lack the fitness, skills or tactical knowledge to work their way in.

[Yukimushu]

I'm sure if the boxer knew that kick's would be involved, then he'd have the common sense to breach the distance. :rolleyes:

[binski20]

I don't want to get too involved in this thread, but would just like to add a few things.

The main plus which is being given to the karateka is the fact that they use kicks and that they can be used to maintain the distance. While this is true in concept, it is not neccesarily true in practice. Kicks are generally slower than punches, and also do not leave a practicioner in a position of great mobility. I am not saying they are not effective in any way, just that they are a little more difficult to use in this manner than some would think.

With that being said, boxers are accustomed to closing the distance, regardless of their specific style. Yes, boxers do have different styles, but they all train to fight at all distances common to boxing. A fighter with a long reach will still be trained to close the distance. A fighter with shorter reach will also be trained to keep his distance and so on.

Boxing against karate is really a pointless argument. A boxer could win, a karateka could win. It largely depends on the training and the individual. When i joined the boxing gym here, I was challenged to spar by a member who had been there for months already. Tho it was foolish of me to spar so early in my training I did. I beat him. Back in high school I studied tae kwon do. A karate club was putting on an open tournament and invited our school to compete, as well as come train with them to become accustomed to point sparring. I was a yellow belt at the time and overwhelmed the lower ranked students with my barrages of kicks. They weren't accustomed to the use of kicks. I sparred a higher ranked student, and he shut be down quite quickly using both quick kicks and hand techniques.

Why did I bother to share these stories that no one probably cares about?
To illustrate the fact that style was not the deciding factor in these matches. 2 boxers sparred, one lost. He didn't have either proper training, technique or knowledge. When sparring against another style, some could beat me, some couldn't. Same reasons again.

[Yukimushu]

The main plus which is being given to the karateka is the fact that they use kicks and that they can be used to maintain the distance. While this is true in concept, it is not neccesarily true in practice. Kicks are generally slower than punches, and also do not leave a practicioner in a position of great mobility. I am not saying they are not effective in any way, just that they are a little more difficult to use in this manner than some would think.


I when I first started Martial arts, I was invited to watch a night of competition fights. One of the fights being hosted that night was a Tae Kwon Do practitioner against a Boxer.

The fight generally followed a steady path of the boxer breaching the distance, and landing some heavy shots on the Tae Kwon Do practitioner.

The only reason bring this up, is as Binski has already mentioned, using kicks to keep distance really isn't as simple and straight forward as you'd think. I've sparred with a fair few kickers and had no problem breaching the distance and laying into them with the combinations.

[Gyaku]

I'm sure if the boxer knew that kick's would be involved, then he'd have the common sense to breach the distance.

A fair point, but most amatuer boxers aren't really that good at doing this. They're used to closing a much shorter gap (hence the difference in footwork)If you start putting sweeps into the equation it gets sticky for the boxer. Most boxers don't have a very good lower body defense - because they don't need to.

I when I first started Martial arts, I was invited to watch a night of competition fights. One of the fights being hosted that night was a Tae Kwon Do practitioner against a Boxer.
I've never done TKD so I can't comment. However most Goju & Shotokan karateka are fairly useful at punching range, they can hit just as hard and as fast. Of the boxers I've trained with I could hold my own quite easily in the hands department and I've trained with some good ones.

Also once the range shuts down completly, we're talking judicious use of elbows and knees by the karateka. Again from a tactical point of view, the boxer simply won't be used to this. He won't have a solid game plan to counter them. Apart from rabbit punches he's in a 'no-technique' zone, which is the worst place to be.

[binski20]

I'm sure if the boxer knew that kick's would be involved, then he'd have the common sense to breach the distance.

A fair point, but most amatuer boxers aren't really that good at doing this. They're used to closing a much shorter gap (hence the difference in footwork)If you start putting sweeps into the equation it gets sticky for the boxer. Most boxers don't have a very good lower body defense - because they don't need to.

I when I first started Martial arts, I was invited to watch a night of competition fights. One of the fights being hosted that night was a Tae Kwon Do practitioner against a Boxer.
I've never done TKD so I can't comment. However most Goju & Shotokan karateka are fairly useful at punching range, they can hit just as hard and as fast. Of the boxers I've trained with I could hold my own quite easily in the hands department and I've trained with some good ones.

Also once the range shuts down completly, we're talking judicious use of elbows and knees by the karateka. Again from a tactical point of view, the boxer simply won't be used to this. He won't have a solid game plan to counter them. Apart from rabbit punches he's in a 'no-technique' zone, which is the worst place to be.

While boxers do not train the same variety of weapons in the very very close range, dont be fooled. Many many are trained to use headbutts and elbows in this range, as well as how to punch as best as they can. They also can also tie an opponents arms up, which doesn't eliminate a throw by any means but is still a tool.

What this comes down to is training. If a karateka trained in the same manner as a boxer, I would be afraid of him.

[tekkengod]

I'm sure if the boxer knew that kick's would be involved, then he'd have the common sense to breach the distance.

A fair point, but most amatuer boxers aren't really that good at doing this. They're used to closing a much shorter gap (hence the difference in footwork)If you start putting sweeps into the equation it gets sticky for the boxer. Most boxers don't have a very good lower body defense - because they don't need to.

I when I first started Martial arts, I was invited to watch a night of competition fights. One of the fights being hosted that night was a Tae Kwon Do practitioner against a Boxer.
I've never done TKD so I can't comment. However most Goju & Shotokan karateka are fairly useful at punching range, they can hit just as hard and as fast. Of the boxers I've trained with I could hold my own quite easily in the hands department and I've trained with some good ones.

Also once the range shuts down completly, we're talking judicious use of elbows and knees by the karateka. Again from a tactical point of view, the boxer simply won't be used to this. He won't have a solid game plan to counter them. Apart from rabbit punches he's in a 'no-technique' zone, which is the worst place to be.

i agree. once he gets into the clinch or the point blank range and starts throwning some knees and elbows, {which are more powerful and harder than most punches. game over. get a mop.

[Gyaku]

Many many are trained to use headbutts and elbows in this range, as well as how to punch as best as they can

That is true, but mainly only the pros, even then not to the pedigree of a karateka, in fact if I were to fight a pro, its exactly what I'd do. But a good point though.

[binski20]

One more post on this thread.

Kicks, knees, knees, elbows, headbutts .....all great techniques.
Nothing is automatic however. That is the nature of fighting. You can learn all the techniques you want, the application is the big factor. THAT is where boxing gains it's biggest strength from. Boxers train in a variety of fashions to help develop their skills, and then they apply them, over and over and over. I am not saying that no other styles do this, just that it is a key.

Have you ever taken out someones legs when they were trying to come at you full force? Have you ever been close quarters with an opponent trying to actually knock you out?

IF you look at the styles generally considered to more effective than others, they all have this in common. Boxing, muay thai, jui jitsu and even judo to a certain extent employ this training. Techniques are taught, refined and then put to practice against an opponent in a live sparring situationnot touch/no contact. Boxers and thai boxers spar full contact, hitting and being hit. Jiu jitsu and judo practitioners throw and grapple, while their opponent is attempting the same.

Like I said previously, if a karateka, or any style for that matter, trains in this fashion they are a force to be reckoned with.

[hunter_kaval]

A takedown and a submission are possible, but this thread is regarding boxing vs. Karate, not grappling or MMA. Tyson is a striker's nightmare. In his prime, he was untouchable.

Iam no striking expert but that is one of the most sensible things i have ever heard.

[Trent Tiemeyer]

That's why they pay me the big bucks.:D

[Linguo]

I when I first started Martial arts, I was invited to watch a night of competition fights. One of the fights being hosted that night was a Tae Kwon Do practitioner against a Boxer.
I've never done TKD so I can't comment. However most Goju & Shotokan karateka are fairly useful at punching range, they can hit just as hard and as fast. Of the boxers I've trained with I could hold my own quite easily in the hands department and I've trained with some good ones.

I think Yuki's point was that closing the distance against kicks can be accomplished by a boxer without that much difficulty.

Also once the range shuts down completly, we're talking judicious use of elbows and knees by the karateka. Again from a tactical point of view, the boxer simply won't be used to this. He won't have a solid game plan to counter them. Apart from rabbit punches he's in a 'no-technique' zone, which is the worst place to be.

Fair point. Boxers arent trained to deal with knees and elbows, but that doesn't mean a boxers don't have an inside game of their own. Boxers can still launch hooks and uppercuts at a close range with devastating results. How developed that game is depends on the boxer.

[Yukimushu]

If you get in close range with a decent boxer, you'd better keep your chin tucked in, and your jaw shut.

[Gyaku]

If you get in close range with a decent boxer, you'd better keep your chin tucked in, and your jaw shut.

Fair point. Boxers arent trained to deal with knees and elbows, but that doesn't mean a boxers don't have an inside game of their own. Boxers can still launch hooks and uppercuts at a close range with devastating results. How developed that game is depends on the boxer.

This is true for a pro, but not amateur. Even Ali as an amateur had little if any close game, pro Ali was a different creature. Very few amatuers have a close game, you only need to look at the recent Commonwealth games or Olympics to see my point. They were great on the outside, but once it moved inside, it became a no-technique brawl.

Boxers and thai boxers spar full contact, hitting and being hit

I've little Thai boxing experience, but again amateur boxers don't do very much full contact sparring, even pros will restrict this - simply because when you go full contact you get hurt. In fact most amateurs sparring (in training, not in compitition obviously) is the same level of cantact that karateka do - without the protective gear.

The kind of sparrimg that amateurs do doesn't have much more intensity or resistance than most karateka, so to say that they have this natural advantage because of the way they train is simply not true.

I think we need to be fair and compare amateur boxers with amateur karateka. Nice points though guys.

[Yukimushu]

Most amature boxers get put through a fair bit of conditioning; various drills, timed rounds of sparring, skipping.

I personally have never seen, or been to a Karate school which puts their students through any form of conditioning which would result in breaking a sweat.

I would still place my money on the boxer.

[NaughtyKnight]

Most definately. Boxers are worked like no tomorrow. I remember watching my mate doing crunches. The coach was smacking him in the guts, so funny.

[Dusty Larson]

Hm. Interesting thread.

Well, there was a fight where Muhammad Ali fought a Japanese Karateka. Ali ended up walking out of the ring with his legs bruised and beat up pretty badly.

Boxers have the upper hand in punching, no doubt about that, but...they don't kick. And kicks are wonderful tools. :)

[binski20]

This is true for a pro, but not amateur. Even Ali as an amateur had little if any close game, pro Ali was a different creature. Very few amatuers have a close game, you only need to look at the recent Commonwealth games or Olympics to see my point. They were great on the outside, but once it moved inside, it became a no-technique brawl.



I've little Thai boxing experience, but again amateur boxers don't do very much full contact sparring, even pros will restrict this - simply because when you go full contact you get hurt. In fact most amateurs sparring (in training, not in compitition obviously) is the same level of cantact that karateka do - without the protective gear.

The kind of sparrimg that amateurs do doesn't have much more intensity or resistance than most karateka, so to say that they have this natural advantage because of the way they train is simply not true.

I think we need to be fair and compare amateur boxers with amateur karateka. Nice points though guys.

Could have fooled me.......all my sparring has been full contact. Beginners and sparring in general is not a full out assault simply to prevent injury, but it is still full contact.

[Yukimushu]

My jaw's still aching from boxing sparring last night! :) finding it kinda difficult to chew any solid food.

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Hm. Interesting thread.

Well, there was a fight where Muhammad Ali fought a Japanese Karateka. Ali ended up walking out of the ring with his legs bruised and beat up pretty badly.

Boxers have the upper hand in punching, no doubt about that, but...they don't kick. And kicks are wonderful tools. :)

That was pro wrestler Antonio Inoki, and he wouldn't stand up with Ali at all.

http://www.antekprizering.com/alianokiccposterpic.jpeg

[Dusty Larson]

UFC rules. reality.

UFC has limited rules, but it isn't reality. Reality is unlimited time, no rules, no padding.

[Yukimushu]

LOL that photo rules 1ONE :D You seem to have a collection of wacky photo's! :)

[Trent Tiemeyer]

Google is my friend, Yuki.

[NaughtyKnight]

Boxers not sparing full contact? I dont think so. How else would they spar, I doubt they use the TKD point sparing system. :cool:

Great pick 1ONE lol, Ali always looks like a nut in every picture I see of him.

[Yukimushu]

Google is my friend, Yuki.

It must be more a friend to you than it is to me! :) I tend to get useless pictures, or 404 errors...

[Rebel Wado]

Anyway, I did not read all of this thread, but having trained in both boxing and karate, I might as well say something on the off chance it makes sense.

There is a learning curve to fighting differently than you are used to. First times a karate person meets up with a boxer, it is usually a wake up call with the karateka getting punched in the face a lot because he/she doesn't keeps hands up and really know how to deal with the boxer. Give it a month or two of the karateka training in boxing and against boxers and it is a much more even match considering people of about equal abilities.

The boxer will initially have less problems dealing with kicks from the karateka because boxing footwork yields decent mobility and it is harder to kick a moving target than to move closer to it and punch it. Often the karateka will get a great kick in on the boxer, but if it does not stun or knock out the boxer, the boxer will recover and be able to come in with punching.

If the karateka can punch or kick with enough speed, accuracy and power to knock out the boxer or hurt the boxer very badly, then that is a different story.

The learning curve for the boxer against a karateka is a bit different, they will learn to break boxing models and actually learn to kick. The kicks may not be as well developed as kicks practiced everyday in karate, but they will be enough that the karateka has to be concerned that they may get a low kick thrown at them as a distraction, counter or part of a combination.

-------

If we are talking no holds barred, non-sport with striking to vitals and such, I would count more on the fighter with the more street experience or NHB experience to come out on top, doesn't matter if they train most of the time in boxing or karate.

[Timmy Boy]

That was pro wrestler Antonio Inoki, and he wouldn't stand up with Ali at all.

Yeah, I downloaded that fight from subfighter.com, although ali wasn't able to fight him inoki was unable to do anything that could really hurt Ali, hence the draw. Such a boring fight!

[shootodog]

This is true for a pro, but not amateur. Even Ali as an amateur had little if any close game, pro Ali was a different creature. Very few amatuers have a close game, you only need to look at the recent Commonwealth games or Olympics to see my point. They were great on the outside, but once it moved inside, it became a no-technique brawl.



I've little Thai boxing experience, but again amateur boxers don't do very much full contact sparring, even pros will restrict this - simply because when you go full contact you get hurt. In fact most amateurs sparring (in training, not in compitition obviously) is the same level of cantact that karateka do - without the protective gear.

The kind of sparrimg that amateurs do doesn't have much more intensity or resistance than most karateka, so to say that they have this natural advantage because of the way they train is simply not true.

I think we need to be fair and compare amateur boxers with amateur karateka. Nice points though guys.

someone should tell that to the boxers i workout with. honestly, it's the first i've ever heard of such things.

the answer is no. no they do not do what you have said in your post. they spar real time. full resistance. all the time. they don't stop for points. they go all the way all the time.

in contast, unless it is kokyushinkai karate*, most karate tournaments i have been to stop for points. they do not spar full contact, full resistance.

*note: maybe ukidokan as well.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

yeah i gotta agree, if thats the case maybe you have experience with one of those rare boxing mcdojos.

[NaughtyKnight]

LOL, i have never heard of boxers not fighting full contact. It pretty much comes with the territory of boxing. You take up boxing, you get hit.

Karate is very rarelly full contact, as far as ive seen.

[Timmy Boy]

someone should tell that to the boxers i workout with. honestly, it's the first i've ever heard of such things.

the answer is no. no they do not do what you have said in your post. they spar real time. full resistance. all the time. they don't stop for points. they go all the way all the time.

in contast, unless it is kokyushinkai karate*, most karate tournaments i have been to stop for points. they do not spar full contact, full resistance.

*note: maybe ukidokan as well.

Well no, we don't spar full contact all the time, but we do it, and even when we do light contact we wear gloves so that we can still make contact to the head without pulling punches (which added a whole new world of difference after I had been at TSD).

[Gyaku]

if thats the case maybe you have experience with one of those rare boxing mcdojos.Ikken Hisatsu

Actually I've trained with two of the worlds top boxing coaches, Andreas Du plessis and Shakes Matlala, betwen the two of them they have produced over a dozen world pro and amateur champ boxers in the last decade.

the answer is no. no they do not do what you have said in your post. they spar real time. full resistance. all the time. they don't stop for points. they go all the way all the time.shootodog

Um, no. Professional coaches will rarely let their boxers go all out on each other. Boxing is an art, its not about brawling. Sure you'll tag your partner if he drops his guard, but you're not going to take his block off - there is no need to. Even pros only go flat out once in a while - they can't afford serious injuries, remember if they get accidently knocked out/concussed, commission rules bar them from fighting for a period of time - thats a loss of money for the boxer and promoter!

Generally you should only spar full contact in a few situations.
1. when you join a gym. This is so that they can 'test your mettle', gyms aren't places for softies.
2. To test if you're ready for compition, or if you want to test your progression.
3. Full contact in compition - of course!

My jaw's still aching from boxing sparring last night! finding it kinda difficult to chew any solid food.Yukimushu
If this is the case after each training session, you're brawling, not boxing, get a decent coach. The point of boxing is not to get hurt!

Karate is very rarelly full contact, as far as ive seenknightcommander
90% of goju and shotokan will allow a fair bit of contact to the body, although head shots are heavy contact restricted. In all fairness, this tendsto be restricted to adult karateka.

[Timmy Boy]

90% of goju and shotokan will allow a fair bit of contact to the body, although head shots are heavy contact restricted. In all fairness, this tendsto be restricted to adult karateka.

To the body isn't enough, IMO. The head is a much more viable target for punching in a fight, and it's also very shocking to receive a hit there if you're not used to it.

[Gyaku]

To the body isn't enough, IMO. The head is a much more viable target for punching in a fight, and it's also very shocking to receive a hit there if you're not used to it.Tang Sou Tim

Thats true, which is why we duke it out in gloves when we're feeling brave!

Well no, we don't spar full contact all the time, but we do it, and even when we do light contact we wear gloves so that we can still make contact to the head without pulling punches (which added a whole new world of difference after I had been at TSD).

Cool, sounds like you're at a good club

[Yukimushu]

If this is the case after each training session, you're brawling, not boxing, get a decent coach. The point of boxing is not to get hurt!


Accidents do happen im afraid. you go boxing, your expected to get hit. It just so happens that I stuck my chin up and took a shot on the jaw.

If anything, i'd be somewhat sceptical about a boxing gym which didn't push, or put their boxers through alittle punishment once in a while...

Personally, i dont know which Karate school you attend, but the majority ive seen or been to, do not fit the description and training methods that you describe. Most students seem to be somewhat overweight, and very unfit.

[tekkengod]

UFC has limited rules, but it isn't reality. Reality is unlimited time, no rules, no padding.

closest thing to reality. you have to worry about all ranges.

[NaughtyKnight]

Personally, i dont know which Karate school you attend, but the majority ive seen or been to, do not fit the description and training methods that you describe. Most students seem to be somewhat overweight, and very unfit.

Exactly Yuki. I have seen quite a few Karate schools, and they fought point sparing. I didnt see any real contact at all, and they got in trouble for using excesive power.

[Gyaku]

Normally the heaviness of sparring is determined by the age of students. With kiddies clubs they tend to do very little other than 'point scoring' as you guys call it. Most of the older guys will turn up the heat. Don't forget we fight bare knuckle most of the time, so even with relativly light contact injuries re more likely. You can take a fairly hard blow to the ribs from a gloved hand, but bare knuckled, it can be serious.

[The Viking]

ok what about Ali against any karateka?

[NaughtyKnight]

ok what about Ali against any karateka?

The Karateka would get owned. Period, but obviously when he was in his prime.

He took punches from the hardest punchers ever.

[holyheadjch]

I'd put Ali ahead of any martial artist.

[NaughtyKnight]

And you would win.

[tekkengod]

I'd put Ali ahead of any martial artist.

haha. Silvia. end discussion.

[tekkengod]

And you would win.

I know i've said this athousand times.

SILVIA. SHAMROCK. GRACIE. LIDDLE. COTURE. END GAME!!!!
why are there so many stubborn people!?!?!?

any one of them = Ali in a body bag.

[NaughtyKnight]

I know i've said this athousand times.

SILVIA. SHAMROCK. GRACIE. LIDDLE. COTURE. END GAME!!!!
why are there so many stubborn people!?!?!?

any one of them = Ali in a body bag.

I seriously doubt that, Ali could take unbelievable amounts of punishment.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

you are kidding right? doesn't matter how tough you are, everyone takes the same amount of time to get choked out, and everyone will tap to an armbar/kneebar/kimura.

and look at mark hunt vs yoshida. compared to yoshida, Hunt is a GOD when it comes to striking. there is no chance in all of hell that yoshi could beat Hunt in a stand up fight. but even with months of training and having a very solid build, yoshi could still take him down and submit him.

Ali vs any top MMA fighter would be a short fight indeed, and I would bet my money on the mma fighter.

[tekkengod]

you are kidding right? doesn't matter how tough you are, everyone takes the same amount of time to get choked out, and everyone will tap to an armbar/kneebar/kimura.

and look at mark hunt vs yoshida. compared to yoshida, Hunt is a GOD when it comes to striking. there is no chance in all of hell that yoshi could beat Hunt in a stand up fight. but even with months of training and having a very solid build, yoshi could still take him down and submit him.

Ali vs any top MMA fighter would be a short fight indeed, and I would bet my money on the mma fighter.

THANK YOU

an intelligent person who is suceptable to LOGIC!!! JOY. THERE MUST BE A GOD.

[NaughtyKnight]

Whos down for getting them together and seeing. Would be a laugh eitherway. Have to go back in time and get the old Ali though.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

we'll dig up zombie bruce lee while we're at it, maybe mas oyama too

[NaughtyKnight]

:d

[The Viking]

Bruce Lee actually said that if he fought ALi, Ali would win.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

something about how his hands were the size of dinner plates wasnt it :D

[NaughtyKnight]

I guess we will never know. Jacki Chan said the same thing.

[The Viking]

yeh and i think that he was too fast a puncher.

[TheMightyMcClaw]

I've noticed most people have interpretted "a boxer vs. a karateka" as "a boxer vs. Tyson/Ali." Just to be fair, would you put the average boxer up against Mas Oyama? Not to be mean, I don't recall Mike Tyson ever killing a bull with his bare hands.

But really, is using the legendary fighters of boxing/karate as standards fair?
I think it was said in the first page or two, but it bears repeating. Boxing can defeat karate. Karate can defeat boxing. Bagua can defeat judo. Drunken Boxing can beat Tang Soo Do. Style X can defeat Style Y, and Style Y can defeat Style X.

[GojuKJoe]

It truly does depend on the individual. You could give me any boxer, and if I looked hard enough, I think I'd most likely be able to find a karateka that could beat them, and vice versa. They both have advantages, boxers are extremely good punchers and any good one is probably decent with headbutts and elbows, but a good karateka should be able to fight from any distance and from any position, so that would be a big advantage.

[NaughtyKnight]

LOL. I cant believe this thread is still open. I was gone for a week and expected all my fav threads to be closed.

[Nrv4evr]

If it was full contact, and the most highly trained karateka fought the highest trained boxer, say a heavyweight champion, i.e. Lewis or Tyson... And both were same weight class... I would give it too the karateka. Simply because he has low kicks. A boxer may train to get hit in the body and face, but not the legs. And they aren't trained to fight bareknuckled. That changes a lot of things in a fight, namely the change from KO power to pain power.

[notquitedead]

A boxer may train to get hit in the body and face, but not the legs. And they aren't trained to fight bareknuckled. That changes a lot of things in a fight, namely the change from KO power to pain power.
The only full contact, bareknuckle karate tournaments I know of are kyokushin, and those don't allow punching to the face.

[NaughtyKnight]

I've never seen Karate training in Bare knuckles.

You can only kick when you have the range remember. The boxer will not give you the distance to do a nice kick, and as soon as you take your foot off the ground you will get hit soo hard in the face you'll end up falling head first into the ground.

[Goju]

I've never seen Karate training in Bare knuckles.

You can only kick when you have the range remember. The boxer will not give you the distance to do a nice kick, and as soon as you take your foot off the ground you will get hit soo hard in the face you'll end up falling head first into the ground.

This is true except for karatekas (are supposed to anyway) be good at both ranges and be able to move between them effectively, while boxers are masters of the punching range. Low kicks may not necessarily allow a karateka to win because a boxer has excellent footwork and will probably move in and keep the other fighter within punching range.
This is the same issue with any fighter vs a tae kwon do practitioner. Ive heard many people say that all you need to do is get in past kicking range and you can kill a tae kwon do guy. The point they are missing is that the tkd guy is trained to defeat you at a kicking range (and yes I realize they are quite capable of arm strikes too) and you probably will have a very hard time trying to get past their legs.
Low kicks are not the answer to beating a boxer, closing the distance probably wont work on a tkd guy, and staying on your feet and striking is easier said than done vs a grappler/ground fighting expert. Each fighter should be well trained at all the ranges and postions or at least have a way to avoid/deal with such things.

[tekkengod]

This is true except for karatekas (are supposed to anyway) be good at both ranges and be able to move between them effectively, while boxers are masters of the punching range. Low kicks may not necessarily allow a karateka to win because a boxer has excellent footwork and will probably move in and keep the other fighter within punching range.
This is the same issue with any fighter vs a tae kwon do practitioner. Ive heard many people say that all you need to do is get in past kicking range and you can kill a tae kwon do guy. The point they are missing is that the tkd guy is trained to defeat you at a kicking range (and yes I realize they are quite capable of arm strikes too) and you probably will have a very hard time trying to get past their legs.
Low kicks are not the answer to beating a boxer, closing the distance probably wont work on a tkd guy, and staying on your feet and striking is easier said than done vs a grappler/ground fighting expert. Each fighter should be well trained at all the ranges and postions or at least have a way to avoid/deal with such things.

oh hell, lets not bring grappling into this or its gonna be a whole nother story.

[NaughtyKnight]

This is true except for karatekas (are supposed to anyway) be good at both ranges and be able to move between them effectively, while boxers are masters of the punching range. Low kicks may not necessarily allow a karateka to win because a boxer has excellent footwork and will probably move in and keep the other fighter within punching range.
This is the same issue with any fighter vs a tae kwon do practitioner. Ive heard many people say that all you need to do is get in past kicking range and you can kill a tae kwon do guy. The point they are missing is that the tkd guy is trained to defeat you at a kicking range (and yes I realize they are quite capable of arm strikes too) and you probably will have a very hard time trying to get past their legs.
Low kicks are not the answer to beating a boxer, closing the distance probably wont work on a tkd guy, and staying on your feet and striking is easier said than done vs a grappler/ground fighting expert. Each fighter should be well trained at all the ranges and postions or at least have a way to avoid/deal with such things.

Moving out of kicking range is the only way to beat a TKDist, unless you want to exchange kicks. If I was gonna use my tkd against a boxer, I would do one low kick at his thigh or if it was on the street, then into his kneecap. After that I would get into the clinch and knee the living crap out of him.

[samuri-man]

uh huh. so uh, when do they make their fighter debuts?


you should be asking yourself the same question :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Ikken Hisatsu]

why? fyi, I had planned on fighting in december but exams in november meant i couldnt train.

[Scarlet Mist]

why? fyi, I had planned on fighting in december but exams in november meant i couldnt train.

Excuses excuses :rolleyes:

[Ikken Hisatsu]

whether you believe me or not is irrelevant- i never claimed i could smash mike tyson.

[Timmy Boy]

Excuses excuses :rolleyes:

I'd say exams that affect the rest of your life are pretty good excuses!

[Ophqui]

Obviously it depends on the boxer and the karate-er, but generally the boxer has the advantage. The reason for this is SPARRING. as soon as a karate guy gets hit in the face he hasnt got a clue what to do, because he hasnt trained for that, thus he cant deal with it. I mean, u hear of people in karate competitions who lose their temper for whatever reason, they smack the other guy in the face in anger, break his nose then get disqualified. the guy who gets hit would be out on his ass if that happened in the street, where theres no referees to save u.

[Scarlet Mist]

I'd say exams that affect the rest of your life are pretty good excuses!

You're obviously not hardcore. :rolleyes:

[Nrv4evr]

The only full contact, bareknuckle karate tournaments I know of are kyokushin, and those don't allow punching to the face.

Of course, hypothetically speaking... :D No, I see where your coming from, and it is a good point. I am merely saying that if it was a real fight, and adrenalin was running, at least the karateka has the slight upperhand when it comes to bareknuckle fights (at least body blows). Of course, it could go either way. I'm just saying, don't count out the karateka's extensive training in bareknuckle fighting. A bare punch is a different feeling than a gloved punch.

And Scarlet, not even hardcore fighter would be stupid enough to ignore exams affecting the rest of their life. Only fools would put fighting over their studies.

[Scarlet Mist]

You're obviously not hardcore either.

[Nrv4evr]

Look Scarlet, grow up. You think that missing out on your studies and being a MA crazy bum will get you anywhere? BULL. You know nothing about me. I've trained in every art proven to be effective under the sun. Don't ever make assumption about me, you hear? And yet, I still find time to keep up with my studies. I've missed karate classes simply because I thought there was a quiz tomorrow. I would rather make a decent living, than be a so called "hardcore" fighter. Ikken is right, I grudgingly admit. You, I feel sorry for.

[Goju]

Obviously it depends on the boxer and the karate-er, but generally the boxer has the advantage. The reason for this is SPARRING. as soon as a karate guy gets hit in the face he hasnt got a clue what to do, because he hasnt trained for that, thus he cant deal with it. I mean, u hear of people in karate competitions who lose their temper for whatever reason, they smack the other guy in the face in anger, break his nose then get disqualified. the guy who gets hit would be out on his ass if that happened in the street, where theres no referees to save u.

Thats such bs...

1. I know many karateka that can take a hit including myself.

2. Ive never heard of that happening (the temper thing).

3. Depending on the school, karateka can train with just as much contact sparring as a boxing gym.

4. Youre saying that when a karate fighter is hit in the face he stands there not knowing what to do, thats ridiculous.

5. I have NEVER seen another karateka take a punch in the face and stand there dumbstruck, havent seen one get angry either, they usually accept that perhaps they should've blocked it. Thats how it is at my school anyway.

6. Karate is much less geared towards sport than boxing is so the referee point was stupid. Maybe in karate point sparring there would be a ref, but to me that has nothing to do with fighting (is more a contest of speed and timing) and is really a poor representsation of how a karateka fights.

[Scarlet Mist]

Look Scarlet, grow up. You think that missing out on your studies and being a MA crazy bum will get you anywhere? BULL. You know nothing about me. I've trained in every art proven to be effective under the sun. Don't ever make assumption about me, you hear? And yet, I still find time to keep up with my studies. I've missed karate classes simply because I thought there was a quiz tomorrow. I would rather make a decent living, than be a so called "hardcore" fighter. Ikken is right, I grudgingly admit. You, I feel sorry for.

I too a student too and I've been working pretty hard. I too miss MA classes because I have other stuff to do. The comment for Ikken was a non - serious one. Why are there so many people keen on proving their worth?

Also, Scarlet is a Pimp.

[NaughtyKnight]

LOL, I'll second that Scarlet, you are a pimp.

Why does anyone care what style would win in a fight. We are just going around in a circle now. The same points are written why boxing would pwn, just worded differently, then karate rebuts the same way. Then the thread goes off on a tangent, then comes back again to the same old point.

If you find yourself a good Karate school (hard to find since the high rate of mc dojos) then you can hold your own against a boxer. Good boxing clubs are easier to find because of the awards they win. If they dont win awards they close down.

After the Karate Kid alot of crappy Karate schools opened up, same with Kungfu schools after Kungfu movies and Tae kwon do. Any nonce can give themselves dan ratings and open up their own schools. Boxers have to prove themselves before opening up their school.

So I guess my point is, IF YOU ARE GOOD AT KARATE, YOU CAN BEAT ANYONE THAT ISNT AS GOOD AS YOU. IF YOU ARE GOOD AT TAEKWONDO, KUNGFU ETC, YOU CAN BEAT ANYONE THAT ISNT AS GOOD AS YOU.

[tekkengod]

Why are there so many people keen on proving their worth?

because what you are worth to yourself is all you'll ever really be worth, seeing as how most people are not particularly good at anything, and spend their days lying to themselves about how much they are "worth" or how much someone else is "worth" wait til valentines day, you'll see exactly what i mean, all the sick people smiling and buying gifts for a person who is ultimately going to be {or has the potential to be} your greatest failure and life long source of unhappiness. :D god i hate valentines day so much. millions and millions of people shooting money out like crack into your arms in order to "celebrate" an unhealthy obsession over a person who will be gone the moment something better comes along, which most people don't realize is often. did i mention how much i hate valentines day? :woo: :woo: :bang: :woo:

[tekkengod]

oops....i ranted. :o

[NaughtyKnight]

Lol. Dont worry, I hate Valentines day aswell. I am going to have to spend some serious dosh to get out of the dog house with my girl. Dosh I dont have. :cry: My stupid fault for laughing at exactly the wrong time.

[Ad McG]

11 pages later, I'm still laughing at the guy who said "my sensei would kick Mike Tysons ass" :D

[Timmy Boy]

11 pages later, I'm still laughing at the guy who said "my sensei would kick Mike Tysons ass" :D

That's exactly the point. Whether you believe boxing is better than karate or not, your average amateur martial arts teacher is not going to stand much of a chance against a former world champion pro fighter, in the same way that I couldn't take on Matsui!

[NaughtyKnight]

11 pages later, I'm still laughing at the guy who said "my sensei would kick Mike Tysons ass" :D

:D, we can let the lad dream cant we. :D

[Scarlet Mist]

because what you are worth to yourself is all you'll ever really be worth, seeing as how most people are not particularly good at anything, and spend their days lying to themselves about how much they are "worth" or how much someone else is "worth" wait til valentines day, you'll see exactly what i mean, all the sick people smiling and buying gifts for a person who is ultimately going to be {or has the potential to be} your greatest failure and life long source of unhappiness. :D god i hate valentines day so much. millions and millions of people shooting money out like crack into your arms in order to "celebrate" an unhealthy obsession over a person who will be gone the moment something better comes along, which most people don't realize is often. did i mention how much i hate valentines day? :woo: :woo: :bang: :woo:

I feel ya. When it comes to valentine's day, I ain't doing it. I don't celebrate infatuation. And I really really really don't like valentine's day.

[Splush]

I've just read this whole thread and it was interesting.

But my opionon is that it's not the person's style that determines the fight, it is the person.

[tekkengod]

I feel ya. When it comes to valentine's day, I ain't doing it. I don't celebrate infatuation. And I really really really don't like valentine's day.

you know scarlet. i think this is the first time i can say that i absolutely agree with you 100%. strange..... :p

[tekkengod]

Lol. Dont worry, I hate Valentines day aswell. I am going to have to spend some serious dosh to get out of the dog house with my girl. Dosh I dont have. :cry: My stupid fault for laughing at exactly the wrong time.

awww....that sucks for you, u can't really play off a laugh.

[Nrv4evr]

You're obviously not hardcore. :rolleyes:

Gee, I wonder if it was the obvious or the hardcore part that ticked me off... or was it the rolleyes? Sorry, the sarcasm just oozes from your "non - serious" comment. Anyway, just forget about it, but don't think you can just make the assumption about me.

BTW, I never said I was hardcore, :p.

[NaughtyKnight]

We block kicks and punches with our face, I think that makes us hardcore enough. :cool:

[Nrv4evr]

Are you a boxer or a karateka? :D

[NaughtyKnight]

Neither. JKD and TKD. Just finised a lesson actually. Blocked a back kick with my spine. God I am hardcore :D

[Scarlet Mist]

Gee, I wonder if it was the obvious or the hardcore part that ticked me off... or was it the rolleyes? Sorry, the sarcasm just oozes from your "non - serious" comment. Anyway, just forget about it, but don't think you can just make the assumption about me.

BTW, I never said I was hardcore, :p.

Firstly, that comment was directed at Ikken, as from his posts, one would think he feels he's the hardest man alive (next to Scarlet of course).

Also, Scarlet is a Pimp

[NaughtyKnight]

LOL :cry: LOL. Scarlet you always make my day.

[Yukimushu]

Just finised a lesson actually. Blocked a back kick with my spine. God I am hardcore :D

Ouch :confused: doesn't sound like a good idea! :D

[Nrv4evr]

Firstly, that comment was directed at Ikken, as from his posts, one would think he feels he's the hardest man alive (next to Scarlet of course).

Also, Scarlet is a Pimp

You coveniently forgot the one directed at me. But, of course, I forgive you. No one can stay mad at Scarlet. :p

[NaughtyKnight]

Ouch :confused: doesn't sound like a good idea! :D

That it wasnt. :cry: Helped my sore lower back though :p

[samuri-man]

why did u block it with your back thet's stupid

[Goju]

i dont think he meant to

[NaughtyKnight]

Wasn't my intention. I was doing a spinning hook kick, but was a wee bit too slow.

[samuri-man]

but if you can't do it fast enough don't do it it's as simple as that

[NaughtyKnight]

I can do it fast enough. It was in the last minute of a 3 min sparing bout. I timed it wrong and ended up spinning just as he was finishing his spin.

[samuri-man]

the intention was there sounds fair enough

[NaughtyKnight]

Lucky I've got strong bones aye. :D

[samuri-man]

can i be the judge of that

[NaughtyKnight]

At OZ map you can. If you can hit me that is. ;)

[samuri-man]

very well

[Yukimushu]

but if you can't do it fast enough don't do it it's as simple as that

Surely that's the whole point of sparring? :) Improving on the things that you can't do?

[funkymonk]

So I guess my point is, IF YOU ARE GOOD AT KARATE, YOU CAN BEAT ANYONE THAT ISNT AS GOOD AS YOU. IF YOU ARE GOOD AT TAEKWONDO, KUNGFU ETC, YOU CAN BEAT ANYONE THAT ISNT AS GOOD AS YOU.
That's the perfect answer to everybody who's bickering over which arts better than the other.Well said :)

btw i used to box when i was 18 and i now do tkd but both arts have helped me in their own ways.

[Goju]

very well

sweet
now, when you guys meet, there better not be any of this "talking" crap, you had better take your stances and have a no holds barred martial arts showdown!

:cool:

[NaughtyKnight]

WAAAAAAAAATTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA.

I challange you to a duel. :D

[NaughtyKnight]

btw i used to box when i was 18 and i now do tkd but both arts have helped me in their own ways.

Thats because they are one of the best combinations. The best kicking art coupled together with the best kicking art. Imagine abit of BJJ in there, now that is a well rounded fighter. :)

[samuri-man]

why bjj why not jjj

[NaughtyKnight]

I dont know man. Cause the only grapling art I know is BJJ.

[samuri-man]

fair enough

[tekkengod]

why bjj why not jjj

i totally agree with you, i hear all these people talking about BJJ {which i want to eventually do} but i'd test my JJJ skills any day.

[Black Thistle]

A top BJJ'er Tysons weight would clearly have a good chance of defeating him. Anyone else would stand little chance. Any Sensei that says otherwise, why not just go down to their local boxing club and set a match up with their top local fighter. Dop that before even thinking of Tyson?

I've always thought the likes of TARVER with a good sprawl would demolish alot of MMA'ers.

The short note is: of course, it depends on the fighter not the art they are practising. Would it be because that someone is a 2nd Dan in Karate or the fact that he's just a tough S.O.B anyway? Would it be because that someone is black belt TKD or the fact that he's just a hard guy that would excel in any contact sport? Yes, you can learn a sport to make you much better in fine tuning your skills/raw talent but it totally depends on the person. I know one or two guys that would leave a trail of bodies behind after walking out of alot of Dojo's...why?....because they're tough, end of story.

[tekkengod]

A top BJJ'er Tysons weight would clearly have a good chance of defeating him. Anyone else would stand little chance.

ok i see what you are saying, but replace "good chance" with
Slaughter. why do you say that anyone else stands little chance, what about the top MMA fighters, belfort, liddle, couture. they'd kill tyson any
day. but i'm not gonna dive too much into this as i've already had many heated discussions over it and reitterated my point athousand times.

[Sonshu]

I think Tyson would muller most martial artists.

Boxing would work against a karate practioner and against most martial arts because it excel's at one thing and its the best out there at it. A major part of self defence.

Throwing and taking a punch. If a boxer gets in close then its move to gappling as if you stay on his game its lights out in most cases.

Very simple and effective. After many years training my 65 year old father is still faster with his hands than I am and his defence is pretty good.

Boxing is top notch

[Black Thistle]

ok i see what you are saying, but replace "good chance" with
Slaughter. why do you say that anyone else stands little chance, what about the top MMA fighters, belfort, liddle, couture. they'd kill tyson any
day. but i'm not gonna dive too much into this as i've already had many heated discussions over it and reitterated my point athousand times.

The reason I say "good chance" and not slaughter is because of variables. All it would take for a MA is to shoot in on Tyson with sloppy technique and get KO'd. There's also the psychological part of things. Don't tell me any MA in the world wouldn't be very nervous about facing him. This could easily lead to poor performance and again, defeat. Tyson would have little trouble in
psyching out most fighters.

About Liddel, belfort and couture. Well, Liddel is basically a striker at LHW albeit a very good fighter. Whats his game plan gainst Tyson? take it to the ground? If Liddel trades hes finished. He may well use his leg kicks to his advantage.

Belfort? man, he would have his hands full. He'd better cling on for dear life and utilise some of his BJJ otherwise hes ended.

Couture, well thats an easy one, he would be clinging on for dear life and go for the usual boring GnP.

Don't get me wrong here, I would take a top MMA 'er to take Tyson no problems because Tyson is not what he once was. He seems to gas quicker also due to his huge size but all things being considered, especially Tyson in his prime. I would've taken him against nearly all.

FOOD FOR THOUGHT.

Think about this for a minute. Say you were in serious trouble and about to be attcked by 4 or 5 guys. Who do you want there...Rickson Gracie or Mike Tyson??

[Ikken Hisatsu]

the master of lay n pray or a crazy pro boxer who is an ex con? the choice is so hard :D

[tekkengod]

The reason I say "good chance" and not slaughter is because of variables. All it would take for a MA is to shoot in on Tyson with sloppy technique and get KO'd. There's also the psychological part of things. Don't tell me any MA in the world wouldn't be very nervous about facing him. This could easily lead to poor performance and again, defeat. Tyson would have little trouble in
psyching out most fighters.

About Liddel, belfort and couture. Well, Liddel is basically a striker at LHW albeit a very good fighter. Whats his game plan gainst Tyson? take it to the ground? If Liddel trades hes finished. He may well use his leg kicks to his advantage.

Belfort? man, he would have his hands full. He'd better cling on for dear life and utilise some of his BJJ otherwise hes ended.

Couture, well thats an easy one, he would be clinging on for dear life and go for the usual boring GnP.

Don't get me wrong here, I would take a top MMA 'er to take Tyson no problems because Tyson is not what he once was. He seems to gas quicker also due to his huge size but all things being considered, especially Tyson in his prime. I would've taken him against nearly all.

FOOD FOR THOUGHT.

Think about this for a minute. Say you were in serious trouble and about to be attcked by 4 or 5 guys. Who do you want there...Rickson Gracie or Mike Tyson??


reguarding Liddle=one good shot to the leg and tyson would be either out or in very bad shpae, than HE would be the one being phsyked out.

Belfort=if he got hit more than a few times hes dead, but if he got tyson down {which he could very easily do} then tysons in a body bag.

as for Couture=you say the "usual" ground and pound as if it wouldn't work? are we trying to entertain, or fight? GNP would be the end of tyson, especially when its someone like Couture who is very good at it. now i do agree with you, if distance couldn't be maintaned and range dictated, then yes, in striking, they would probably get slaughtered, but seeing as how thats what they do {distance and range} i see no real threat in mike

FOOD FOR THOUGHT= you know thats a tough one, but not a fair one.
if it was gracie or tyson, i don't know, but that dosen't seem fair because of the fact that he is a GNP type fighter. now if it were between tyson and a well versed fighter like Liddle, or shamrock ect. then i'd go with Liddle easily.

if it was against one guy, {whom for the sake of argument, i stood no chance against} then i'd go with gracie.

FOOD FOR THOUGHT {for you} :D = i wasn't reffering to MAers in general, i mean if we're gonna do that, then we could include TKD and wushu, so thats a no no. i was reffering to MMAers, the best of the best.

if Tyson ever fought Shamrock under MMA rules, you can't honestly tell me that you'd put any money on Tyson, can you?

on a similar note. A few months back, tyson made a comment about being the greatest fighter in the world, and one of the reporters stood up and said "if thats true, then would you consider a bout in the UFC?" to which he replied "No, i don't think so. Those guys are on a whole nother level from boxers, as well, MMA is not something i'm acostumed to."

he knows his place.

[shootodog]

the master of lay n pray or a crazy pro boxer who is an ex con? the choice is so hard :D

i beg to disagree...rickson is not a lay and pray kinda guy.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

my bad, i thought he said royce. rickson or tyson... that is a tough one. I think my first move would be to stop hanging around at an old folks home :D

[Infrazael]

I'd bet on Garcie. Two top-of-the-line fighters, equally skilled and dangerous, I'll probably always bet in the grappler.

[Nrv4evr]

I dunno... Tyson wasn't merely just a boxer... He could probably streetfight. Either way, if Gracie dodge Tyson's hammer shots and got him to the ground, he'd still have a helluva time trying to fend off Tyson's brute power. Still, if Gracie can get it to the ground, Tyson's in for a hard fight, and I would put my money on Gracie. If Liddell fought Tyson, I would have to see it. I don't know if Tyson can eat a leg kick from Liddell, so that's what it boils down to. If Tyson can eat Liddell's leg kick, then I hope Liddell was a track star in high school, because he's going to need to run.

[JAMJTX]

Aboslutely, as long as the karateka is better at karate than the boxer is at boxing.
It can also come down to the rules, if there are any. If the rules favor the boxer, then liekly the boxer will win. If the rules favor the karateka, then likely the karateka will win.

I had an experience with a boxer once. We did not know each other, but a mutual friend thought we should meet and fight. Unfortunately we did.
The fight was held in a boxing ring at a gym and some rules were set. By all accounts the "fight" was a draw. But I was forced to hold back. The boxer then made some smart remark about karate not really being anything at all.
I had him get back in the ring and showed him what karate could be. Then he got hurt pretty bad and they both got mad at me.

[Sonshu]

Interestingly enough when you were in the ring I would guess you were not using Karate as such but more a boxing type style.

So maybe you took the elements of Karate and adapted them to the situation which is good. However the Karate on its own I do not think under thoes rules could prove well as the sparring is not suited to match that of a boxer.

[tekkengod]

I dunno... Tyson wasn't merely just a boxer... He could probably streetfight. Either way, if Gracie dodge Tyson's hammer shots and got him to the ground, he'd still have a helluva time trying to fend off Tyson's brute power. Still, if Gracie can get it to the ground, Tyson's in for a hard fight, and I would put my money on Gracie. If Liddell fought Tyson, I would have to see it. I don't know if Tyson can eat a leg kick from Liddell, so that's what it boils down to. If Tyson can eat Liddell's leg kick, then I hope Liddell was a track star in high school, because he's going to need to run.

are you INSANE?!?!?! tyson on the ground would be an instant slaughter, there'd be no rolling, no contest, gracie would slaughter him, there are a hundred techniques designed to work on stronger opponents. oh....sorry i read farthure and u said gracie, k. as for liddle, one very good kick to the leg would be easy for liddle and very hard for tyson to dodge, if he took the kick, hes going down, there is no way he could eat the kick and not go down. secondly i think alot of people underestimate liddle as a striker. even a good kick to the arms would slow him down astronomically and a kick ot the face and well thats a whole nother story. not to mention if he got clinch position, one good straight knee and we can say bye bye, but if liddle got hit more than once or twice hed be gone.

[tekkengod]

I'd bet on Garcie. Two top-of-the-line fighters, equally skilled and dangerous, I'll probably always bet in the grappler.

and you would be a very wise man to do so.

[Yukimushu]

Interestingly enough when you were in the ring I would guess you were not using Karate as such but more a boxing type style.

So maybe you took the elements of Karate and adapted them to the situation which is good. However the Karate on its own I do not think under thoes rules could prove well as the sparring is not suited to match that of a boxer.

Very true; there used to be a karate class being held next door to the gym I used to go to; and when you watch them spar, they seem to always take a more boxing style approach. Hands up protecting the jaw, they just didn't have the footwork and punching capability of a boxer.

[Nrv4evr]

are you INSANE?!?!?! tyson on the ground would be an instant slaughter, there'd be no rolling, no contest, gracie would slaughter him, there are a hundred techniques designed to work on stronger opponents. oh....sorry i read farthure and u said gracie, k. as for liddle, one very good kick to the leg would be easy for liddle and very hard for tyson to dodge, if he took the kick, hes going down, there is no way he could eat the kick and not go down. secondly i think alot of people underestimate liddle as a striker. even a good kick to the arms would slow him down astronomically and a kick ot the face and well thats a whole nother story. not to mention if he got clinch position, one good straight knee and we can say bye bye, but if liddle got hit more than once or twice hed be gone.

Apparently, you are assuming that Tyson is a weak loser who could only take upperbody blows. Tyson WAS A KILLER, lol... The guy could probably, without any training, have enough raw anger in him to eat a few leg kicks or fight on the ground. I said that Gracie would win, because his technique is just too much for Tyson. However, I will bet that Tyson could put on a fight, simply because of his fighting talent. Somehow, I don't know, Tyson would give Gracie at least an annoying time. Tyson wasn't just a boxer, he could probably bring it on the ground. NOT TO THE LEVEL OF GRACIE, okay, but at least he could put up a fight. And I'm pretty sure Tyson could eat one leg kick, even without training. I'll admit, he'd probably lose to Liddell, but the odds of Liddell landing a kick to the head on Tyson is low. It would come down to Liddell keeping Tyson away with the jab, then getting leg kicks to murder Tyson's legs.

[Goju]

Karate is more about application of principles or bunkai, than it is about using a specific form while fighting. For instance, the horse stance (shiko dachi) is not very practical for fighting, but using it in katas, drills, and ippon kumite teaches the importance of shifting to a wider, or lower stance (centre of gravity and all that) at times during a fight. Stances like these are also good for learning to shift your weight from your front to back legs etc. Same with the sanchin dachi, hourglass stance where your feet are pointed inward, it lowers your mobility, but it teaches you to keep your thighs close together (groin kicks) and to root yourself using your legs and hips. When karate people spar (or fight) they use a fighting stance, which looks no different from that of any kickboxer or boxer, they just apply what they've learned from stance work and modify their stance accordingly during the fight.

[Sonshu]

Apparently, you are assuming that Tyson is a weak loser who could only take upperbody blows. Tyson WAS A KILLER, lol... The guy could probably, without any training, have enough raw anger in him to eat a few leg kicks or fight on the ground. I said that Gracie would win, because his technique is just too much for Tyson. However, I will bet that Tyson could put on a fight, simply because of his fighting talent. Somehow, I don't know, Tyson would give Gracie at least an annoying time. Tyson wasn't just a boxer, he could probably bring it on the ground. NOT TO THE LEVEL OF GRACIE, okay, but at least he could put up a fight. And I'm pretty sure Tyson could eat one leg kick, even without training. I'll admit, he'd probably lose to Liddell, but the odds of Liddell landing a kick to the head on Tyson is low. It would come down to Liddell keeping Tyson away with the jab, then getting leg kicks to murder Tyson's legs.

I will go out on a limb and say my money would be on Tyson over Liddell, yes chuck is a good stiker but there are things to take into account eg:

Chuck Liddell

Record 15 - 3- 0 (2 losses are from strikes)
Kickboxing
As good as he is he is not a top MMA contender as he has never had a solid challeng for a belt that I am aware of.
Height 6'2
Weight 204 lbs
Never won by sub in his pro record


Mike Tyson

Record 49 - 3 - 0 - (2NC)
Tyson has won 90% of his total fights 79% by KO
21 First round knock outs
Height 5'10 - 5'11
Weight 239 lbs
Ex worldchampion with impressive record

I think Tyson would beat Chuck if I am honest - just close the distance and unload on him, maybe take a could of leg kicks but its not going to be in Tysons game to get picked off. I think he would beat Chuck fairly convincingly. Gracie is different but I think for perhaps the first time in a long time Gracie would be more cautious as Tyson would be the first opponent in MMA that Royce has faught who has a real serious chance of KO'ing him. If you look at Royce fight card there are no real heavy weigh KO fighters on there.

No Crocop's, Kerr, Vovchenchin, Silva - there are 2 good stikers he has faught - Gerrard Gordoeux (sp) who did not know a thing about ground work and paid the price and the other was Sak and we know the result of that - Sak not known for his punching power either.

I am not a Gracie hater by any means but I am understandant that certainly Royce has not been tested by what I would class a world standard striker or ground n pounder.

[tekkengod]

Apparently, you are assuming that Tyson is a weak loser who could only take upperbody blows. Tyson WAS A KILLER, lol... The guy could probably, without any training, have enough raw anger in him to eat a few leg kicks or fight on the ground. I said that Gracie would win, because his technique is just too much for Tyson. However, I will bet that Tyson could put on a fight, simply because of his fighting talent. Somehow, I don't know, Tyson would give Gracie at least an annoying time. Tyson wasn't just a boxer, he could probably bring it on the ground. NOT TO THE LEVEL OF GRACIE, okay, but at least he could put up a fight. And I'm pretty sure Tyson could eat one leg kick, even without training. I'll admit, he'd probably lose to Liddell, but the odds of Liddell landing a kick to the head on Tyson is low. It would come down to Liddell keeping Tyson away with the jab, then getting leg kicks to murder Tyson's legs.

ok...he as an agry sonuva bitch, but i don't think anger is going to help very much in a grappling/ground and pound situation. and maybe a poorly executed leg kick then he could take MAYBE 1 . but liddle has very good technique, if he got off his usual nice even knee shot it over, not to mention sweeps. not to mention the slow progressive eating away of his arms and legs, in all reality, i seriously doubt liddle gettign any head kicks, but he would still land many powerful shots to his arms, which would weaken him and slow him down astronomically now couple that with leg kick and he would be very hurt, very confused, out of his element and scared.

[tekkengod]

did not know a thing about ground work and paid the
price

thats my point, to the ground and tysons as good as dead, and closing the distance on liddle, i dont think that would be very easy, honestly. tysons legs wouldn't last very long at all.

[Nrv4evr]

ok...he as an agry sonuva bitch, but i don't think anger is going to help very much in a grappling/ground and pound situation. and maybe a poorly executed leg kick then he could take MAYBE 1 . but liddle has very good technique, if he got off his usual nice even knee shot it over, not to mention sweeps. not to mention the slow progressive eating away of his arms and legs, in all reality, i seriously doubt liddle gettign any head kicks, but he would still land many powerful shots to his arms, which would weaken him and slow him down astronomically now couple that with leg kick and he would be very hurt, very confused, out of his element and scared.

Okay, either way, any one of us could be right. I can see Liddell winning, no question, but I'm not afraid to say that Tyson could finish it. Remember, Tyson has the punching equivalent of an SUV ramming into you...You never know, maybe Tyson is tough enough to take a leg kick, and then just get in, shove his glove into Liddell's nose a few times, and wam! Anyway, unless Tyson decides to go UFC, I doubt this will happen.

[Ikken Hisatsu]

yeah which is never going to happen. the pay cut would be like going from a chairman of some big company to the janitor.

[Knight_Errant]

Depends how over Tyson's boxing career becomes. I still doubt it would actually happen though.

[Goju]

speaking of which, I have the video of Tyson challenging Bob Sapp from a while back... Did they fight? will they fight? when? anybody know?

post or pm me if you know... thanks

[Ikken Hisatsu]

no they didnt, just a publicity stunt by k-1. that fight will never happen.

[Goju]

:cry: ...would've been great

[Nrv4evr]

What would've really been nice would be Buakaw .vs. Tyson. Cage match, lol, two killers fighting to the finish. Now that, I'd pay to see.

[Nrv4evr]

out of his element and scared.

Tyson... scared? What are thou speaking of? Tyson and fear... Wow, that doesn't sound right... Are you sure that's not an oxymoron?

[kungfufighter]

Does boxing work against karate? Anytime I see a Karate guy go against a boxer the boxer gets his but kicked because of all the elbows, kicks, kness and overall more rounded style of the karate guy.

Do you guys think boxing can work against karate or is it to limited by just using the hands since it has no kick, elbow, or knee defences?
To me, yes, whenever i've seen it happen the boxer just crushes the karate fighter. But me heh, ican beat em both at once...

[tekkengod]

Tyson... scared? What are thou speaking of? Tyson and fear... Wow, that doesn't sound right... Are you sure that's not an oxymoron?
trust me, with his primary weapons fading in power and speed, his support crumbiling beneath him as his back touches the cold metal of the cage and not the plastic of the ropes, hes gonna be out of his element and hurting badly, i don't care who you are, being wounded and fighting an opponent who is working your weaknesses to his strength and doing so very well very quickly when you have no last resort is terrifying.

[NaughtyKnight]

Tyson is not right in the head. I dont think he knows what fear is anymore.

Im not sure who would win, but it would be impossible to guess without them actually fighting, there are too many variables.

[shootodog]

trust me, with his primary weapons fading in power and speed, his support crumbiling beneath him as his back touches the cold metal of the cage and not the plastic of the ropes, hes gonna be out of his element and hurting badly, i don't care who you are, being wounded and fighting an opponent who is working your weaknesses to his strength and doing so very well very quickly when you have no last resort is terrifying.

i doubt that very much but you can dream can't you?

tyson has seen so much more action and so much beatings in his lifetime. he has been in there with some of the hardest and fastest hitters around. his record as pointed out by sonshu speaks for itself. he will let fly big and fast ones. if those land, unless you've got the head of a rock, you'd be sitting on the mat.

what you are argueing is that an mma fighter can beat a boxer. it's a rather pointless arguement because it boils down to the fighters, the fight, and lady luck.

[tekkengod]

what you are argueing is that an mma fighter can beat a boxer. it's a rather pointless arguement because it boils down to the fighters, the fight, and lady luck.

no, i'm not. i have however argued that before many times and we always come to the same conclusion with that one. i'm arguing Tyson in particular vs Liddle {at the moment} :D

[shootodog]

no, i'm not. i have however argued that before many times and we always come to the same conclusion with that one. i'm arguing Tyson in particular vs Liddle {at the moment} :D

then let me make my pronouncement. see sonshu's analysis. it's on the money. i'll bet more money on a fighter that has seen and been in more high level fights. i'll bet the bank if that fighter has won most of those fights. i'll borrow money to bet on a fighter that has ended most of those fights decisively (kos).

liddel couldn't rock wandy (who is a lhw) or any of pride fc's lhw. what makes you think he can go against mike tyson? he's a heavy weight. he's a heavy hitter. more importantly, he's been with heavy hitters. he can take the punishment. boxer have great cardio. tyson can last longer than most ufc fights last. he is used to punishment for longer and can dish out twice as long.

i've done nhb and boxing. i've trained in both. i can tell you, beating a boxer isn't easy.

[NaughtyKnight]

i've done nhb and boxing. i've trained in both. i can tell you, beating a boxer isn't easy.

I hear you here man. The last fight i was in, I had to fight this ammature boxer. He was very, very tough.

[Sonshu]

Thanks Shootodog

He I do MMA and know its strengths and weakness and there are both in it. I just think if I was to call the fight from the bell.

Tyson will steam in and unload on Chuck from the begining, Chuck will go down under the pressure and stay on his back or look to take Tyson down. This he may do but Tyson is gonna be one strong person and I do not feel Lidell has the depth of ground game to control someone like Tyson if it went to ground.

I feel Chuck would be on his butt and out of the fight in under a minute. Another boxer perhaps Chuck would have a chance as the will not go off at such a mad pace. If Chuck has a better ground game I would say yes Chuck would get it but he is so far short of being able to make the difference up that I think he would get pulled apart.

Put someone like Mark Coleman then it would be a different story.

[Florida Warlock]

Yes boxing can work against Karate. Just like Karate can work against boxing, Wing Chun can work against <place any style here>.

It's been said time and time and time again; it's not the style, its the fighter... (write it down on a postit note and stick it on your monitor :) )

I know this post was from awhile ago, but I'm still compelled to reply to this. Someone may have already...

I disagree with the statement that any style can work against any stle. I know someone who is a second degree blackbelt in karate, and he joined my JKD kwoon (before I did). He says that he learned more in this class in a couple weeks than in all the time he spent taking karate. I sparr with TKD students, and they couldn't do anything effective.

I'm not going to go into my opinion about how ineffective those styles are, but I will say that some arts are for competition, and others are 'street arts'. Every story I've ever heard and every fight I've ever seen involving a karate student and a kung fu student of the same level has ended in the kung fu student beating the $hit out of his opponent, because they aren't using hard blocks that leave them really open and leave them succeptible to grapples, etc.

Anyway, someone has probably said the equivalent.

Two fighters, same skill level, 1 in a competition art; the other in a street art, the street fighter wins every time. This is just what I've seen and heard (and experienced when sparring with friends from other arts).

This may only apply to JKD vs Karate/TKD, I've only studied those arts. Although Aikido would probably best karate & JKD as well. I don't know much about arts other than the above mentioned.

[Nrv4evr]

Two fighters, same skill level, 1 in a competition art; the other in a street art, the street fighter wins every time. This is just what I've seen and heard (and experienced when sparring with friends from other arts).

This may only apply to JKD vs Karate/TKD, I've only studied those arts. Although Aikido would probably best karate & JKD as well. I don't know much about arts other than the above mentioned.

Karate teaches you how to stay alive. It's nothing against you, but why do people keep comparing arts in the context of fighting? Karate IS SELF-DEFENSE. If you want to learn to fight in karate, take kyokushin. If an art is designed for counter-attacks and throws, why are you comparing it to an art that is designed for attacking? Obviously, a karate-ka cannot perform to his fullest against a "boxer," he is not trained to do so. A boxer is trained to WIN with speed and power. But have the boxer attack the karate guy wildly like a madman (just arms flailing, like most self-defense situations) and he will be down, most likely with a crushed throat or damaged eyes.

[Florida Warlock]

Okay, well, I was meaning to compare all arts. So from what you've said there's a huge difference in the effectiveness of one arts vs another, depending on the purpose of the art, correct?

You said karate is supposed to teach you to stay alive? Doesn't work against anything above the common street thug, then.

Sorry, I just have a problem with how karate has hard blocks that leave you open when other arts parry and come in for the attack. I'm guessing that after a block someone in karate would strike? Well, the same thing happened there. But one looked better and was more effective and the other...

[Rebel Wado]

... Every story I've ever heard and every fight I've ever seen involving a karate student and a kung fu student of the same level has ended in the kung fu student beating the $hit out of his opponent, because they aren't using hard blocks that leave them really open and leave them succeptible to grapples, etc...

Shoot, damn. Almost every single story I've heard has the kung fu student getting beat up by ANY other style. One of my uncles told me stories when I was a young black belt of how they used to have gang fights, Judo verse Kung Fu. The Kung Fu guys would try to kick, the Judo guys would grab the kicks and go on to slaughter the kung fu guys.

My instructor was witness to some of the Muay Thai verse Kung Fu fights in the early seventies. The first ones did not go well at all for Kung Fu, they lost every one of them out of 40 some fight he saw with the Kung Fu guys getting knocked out or unable to continue from broken arms and stuff from trying to block kicks.

A person I knew more than twenty years ago was a decent martial artist, I think he was working on his red sash in Kung Fu. He got in a fight with four guys and was beating all of them, then a really large amature boxer came in to the fight and knocked the guy I knew out.

But never was it said by anyone in the know that Kung Fu sucked or was ineffective. In fact, it was respected by all that told the stories.

If a boxer is better than a karate person, it will be because of natural ability, hard work, and the experience with fighting different people that don't fight the same as them, that don't use the same techniques and strategies.

If a karateka is better than a boxing person, it will be because of natural ability, hard work, and the experience with fighting different people that don't fight the same as them, that don't use the same techniques and strategies.

In my opinion.

[Florida Warlock]

Hmm. Well, I haven't heard the same. I take JKD, which is Gung Fu(?) And my Sifu said that Kung Fu and that have worked every time. However I believe this was against Karate and TKD.

However I can see how Judo (or a similar art) would work against Kung Fu. The only person at my school that can take me down is my friend, who's a really good wrestler.

I would be pretty nervous against a boxer. However, in JKD we throw really nice flurries of punches, or, at least the more experienced students do(one sash ahead of me and two years older).

[Florida Warlock]

My instructor was witness to some of the Muay Thai verse Kung Fu fights in the early seventies. The first ones did not go well at all for Kung Fu, they lost every one of them out of 40 some fight he saw with the Kung Fu guys getting knocked out or unable to continue from broken arms and stuff from trying to block kicks.

We, at the Kwoon I train at, don't block kicks. We parry them so that our opponent's back is to use. Then we choke, punch, sweep, whatever.

The karate students that join try to block. The same goes with punches. After they block twice we grapple, pauk sow (dunno how to spell the terms that well..) and they've lost the use of their arms and are too close to kick. Then again, we fight third range (the distance between Neo and Morpheus in the training simulation :) ) and they're used to fighting first range (kicking distance.)

[Rebel Wado]

Hmm. Well, I haven't heard the same. I take JKD, which is Gung Fu(?) And my Sifu said that Kung Fu and that have worked every time. However I believe this was against Karate and TKD.

I can see how Judo would work against Kung Fu, however. The ONLY person at my school (at or below my grade) that can take me down is a really good wrestler.

Well, yeah, I wasn't trying to bash any martial arts style. Kung Fu, JKD, etc. are better rounded than a lot of karate and TKD in the area of gaining experience fighting against people that don't fight the same as them, don't use the same strategies, and don't use the same techniques.

A lot of karate and TKD training is only sparring/fighting against people that are the same, using the same strategies and techniques. Well until they start to cross train.

When I was in karate, when we sparred in class, the higher belts might use kickboxing, boxing, judo, as well as karate in sparring. It was all open and legal as long as it was controlled not to try to kill each other. It was just for training, no points, no stopping the fight, it was just training.

[Nrv4evr]

Sorry, I just have a problem with how karate has hard blocks that leave you open when other arts parry and come in for the attack. I'm guessing that after a block someone in karate would strike? Well, the same thing happened there. But one looked better and was more effective and the other...

Um.... you obviously have never heard of a soft block in karate... Karate, other than kung fu, started the parrying. Why do you think all those karate movies have their HANDS OPEN? That's because they use soft blocks, not those "hard blocks" they use in white belt classes. Spar with me, my sensei, or any other experienced karateka. We're not going to use hard blocks. We'll grab your jab out of the air and go for the punch to the head, or if you try to kick, we'll sidestep and parry the kick.

[Rebel Wado]

We, at the Kwoon I train at, don't block kicks. We parry them so that our opponent's back is to use. Then we choke, punch, sweep, whatever.

The karate students that join try to block. The same goes with punches. After they block twice we grapple, pauk sow (dunno how to spell the terms that well..) and they've lost the use of their arms and are too close to kick. Then again, we fight third range (the distance between Neo and Morpheus in the training simulation :) ) and they're used to fighting first range (kicking distance.)

Yeah, when I had trained years in karate, I was still very rigid. It took me years more in Aikido and some BJJ to become more agile and supple. I did have a bad habit built in to try to block everything that came in, come to think of it, rather than use better footwork concepts and intercepting/jamming or redirecting attacks, and covering vitals.

But years later I did start to pick up what karate was more about. Almost all blocks in karate are really attacks. The idea is that you use your attacks as your defenses also, combined with good footwork to evade taking a full force hit in return. Karate was like fire, and a tactic of fire is to overwhelm the opponent. All those blocks seen in karate, with the exception of a few used against weapons as last ditch defenses and deflection blocks, should really be attacks to distract and/or hurt the opponent.

There should be no two blocks in a row from karate following the concepts of fire. It should be attack, attack, attack, continuously with good techniques and power strikes to vital areas. The fight in theory should be over in seconds once the hits start coming.

That is what is meant by "one strike ends the fight" in karate.

But that is the philosophy, not to represent it as the best way or the only way.

[Fish Of Doom]

Okay, well, I was meaning to compare all arts. So from what you've said there's a huge difference in the effectiveness of one arts vs another, depending on the purpose of the art, correct?

You said karate is supposed to teach you to stay alive? Doesn't work against anything above the common street thug, then.

Sorry, I just have a problem with how karate has hard blocks that leave you open when other arts parry and come in for the attack. I'm guessing that after a block someone in karate would strike? Well, the same thing happened there. But one looked better and was more effective and the other...

i think many people think that basics are the actual way to fight with karate, which is NOT the case, ABSOLUTELY NOT.

we don't block while fighting, we parry to the side and follow up, or we grab and pull, or sometimes break in some cases, then follow up.

in sparring, we use the complete opposite of the "hard blocks" you talk about, we parry, soft and fast, then follow up with strikes. but since we practice hard blocks, we are able to parry effectively becvause we can block hard, so we learn to parry hard.

also in a fight, as has been mentioned in a couple threads(i remember one i think was a news article about a BJJ woman defending herself), you don't use your style, you use the techniques you learn, but not your style, you might be a karateka and use a wushu movement, or be a judoka and use muay thai strikes, so you don't use your specific learned style, you use what you know, and what you need to keep yourself alive, who cares if your crescent kicks don't come out alright, if you can deflect an arm at long distance with it and follow with a hook kick, who cares if someone throws a knife hand at your nose, with you being unable to block it, when you can bite the other's fingers off, grab his arm and break it, etc etc etc.

you only use individual moves combined with your specific strategy to fight, you don't use your style.
if you realize that, and know plenty of applicable things, you can use moves for purposes unthought of by many, and use any strike from double or triple the normal positions in which it's traditionally used.

if a karateka has a hard style of training, and can't defend well, he/she hasn't got a good understanding of what fighting means, only basics and sparring, which are only tools to use as a boost, not the ultimate way of doing it right

just my 2 cents

Fish Of Doom

[Florida Warlock]

I wasn't aware of much of that. Blackbelts try to spar me out of the Kwoon/Dojo/Dojang or show my Sifu how they'd react to a strike and they use hard blocks.

Sorry; I didn't mean to down the styles, just my opinion, which, has changed now. I guess everyone I've sparred with need to train more, because right now they're getting their @sses kicked.

[Nrv4evr]

I wasn't aware of much of that. Blackbelts try to spar me out of the Kwoon/Dojo/Dojang or show my Sifu how they'd react to a strike and they use hard blocks.


Then these blackbelts are fools, because only fools use hard blocks to defend against strikes. If you watch black belts spar, you will notice they mostly get in close, grab each other's hands, then try to use their free hand to attack. For blocking, they merely, with a twist of the wrist, sidestep the incoming strike, and send you careening in another direction. As well, some black belts, including this one blackbelt, I cannot remember his name, it was Sensei Manara or something... He could duck a jab and grab it, and then throw you onto the ground using an aikido move.

Deflection, parries, jamming, grabbing, dodging and forearm covering of vital blocks are much more effective than hard blocks. Hard blocks are good for developing arm speed, and they, like rebel wado said, are actually more attacks. (high block is actually kind of like a hammer fist, except you drive your forearm into the side of the person's head)

[Sonshu]

I know this post was from awhile ago, but I'm still compelled to reply to this. Someone may have already...

I disagree with the statement that any style can work against any stle. I know someone who is a second degree blackbelt in karate, and he joined my JKD kwoon (before I did). He says that he learned more in this class in a couple weeks than in all the time he spent taking karate. I sparr with TKD students, and they couldn't do anything effective.

I'm not going to go into my opinion about how ineffective those styles are, but I will say that some arts are for competition, and others are 'street arts'. Every story I've ever heard and every fight I've ever seen involving a karate student and a kung fu student of the same level has ended in the kung fu student beating the $hit out of his opponent, because they aren't using hard blocks that leave them really open and leave them succeptible to grapples, etc.

Anyway, someone has probably said the equivalent.

Two fighters, same skill level, 1 in a competition art; the other in a street art, the street fighter wins every time. This is just what I've seen and heard (and experienced when sparring with friends from other arts).

This may only apply to JKD vs Karate/TKD, I've only studied those arts. Although Aikido would probably best karate & JKD as well. I don't know much about arts other than the above mentioned.

Are you for real - it is both the style and the art, you can be good at one part and poor at the other and still be only ok. You need both to be good and street vs competition arts it is not 100% the case for a "street art" winning as there are MCDojo "street" schools.

I for the record comp arts are VERY effective on the street provided the package overall is good.

Good instructor
Good student
Good style
Good luck

= Good fighter in general

[Fish Of Doom]

I wasn't aware of much of that. Blackbelts try to spar me out of the Kwoon/Dojo/Dojang or show my Sifu how they'd react to a strike and they use hard blocks.

Sorry; I didn't mean to down the styles, just my opinion, which, has changed now. I guess everyone I've sparred with need to train more, because right now they're getting their @sses kicked.

no i should be sorry i almost screwed up again and sounded insulting.
but at my dojo(and particularly in my training at home) we train like that, if you can do a superfast hard block, you can apply superfast strong soft blocks, and my sensei in particular is top notch in parrying, once he made me spar and he just kept brushing my arms to the side before i could even move, as soon as we started he jumped towards me and began batting my arms so fast i couldn't move, and everytime i moved to keep him from doing that he just folowed at the exact same time, so i just kept eveding as much as i could(which isn't much :cry: ) while he continually told me to hit him and i coun't even move:cry: .
the theory about not fighting with specifically your styles is something i reallized after reading posts here on the board, specially the comments on the Woman uses BJJ to fend off would be rapist thread today, but i always tried to round up my training at home, and we train a bit of locks, grabs, the tiniest thinnest bit of groundfighting and a couple painful pressure points at the dojo, and we're always taught how NOT to do the techniques(my favourite's one where sensei was explaining Jiyu Kumite, free sparring, which is a short range full contact we-butcher-each-other type of sparring, and he said that "you're not gonna do all those fancy stances, perfect technique and high kicks and stuff in the street", as he demonstrated that kind of things), then he went into a horse stance deefense while saying "and then you do a horse stance and BOOM!, you take one in the middle".

oncee again it's me who should be sorry for speaking so harshly all the time

Fish Of Doom

[Goju]

I cant believe that some karate black belts came to your school and used hard blocks in sparring. Also, a lot of you say "whenever I see a boxer vs a karateka...", how often do you see a boxer fighting a karateka, really? Even in mma tournaments theres never somebody who's just a boxer or just does karate, and it's not like they each go into eachother's schools to challenge the other style. What is a street martial art anyway?

[Nrv4evr]

I cant believe that some karate black belts came to your school and used hard blocks in sparring.

Exactly what I said, until you guys ignored me. :cry:

Yea, but seriously, if any blackbelt uses hard blocks aimlessly, then they are either joking, or have been fooled by McDojo's. I have only seen blackbelts use soft blocks, and when they use hard blocks, are only in drills, or actually, as attacks. Whoever these hard blocking blackbelts are, they should be shot for idiocy. :D

[shootodog]

Thanks Shootodog

He I do MMA and know its strengths and weakness and there are both in it. I just think if I was to call the fight from the bell.

Tyson will steam in and unload on Chuck from the begining, Chuck will go down under the pressure and stay on his back or look to take Tyson down. This he may do but Tyson is gonna be one strong person and I do not feel Lidell has the depth of ground game to control someone like Tyson if it went to ground.

I feel Chuck would be on his butt and out of the fight in under a minute. Another boxer perhaps Chuck would have a chance as the will not go off at such a mad pace. If Chuck has a better ground game I would say yes Chuck would get it but he is so far short of being able to make the difference up that I think he would get pulled apart.

Put someone like Mark Coleman then it would be a different story.

maybe ivan leiko or the federnator or minatoro or maybe even crocop. younger, stronger, and hot as hell! besides, mike would steam roll over a lot of mma guys, just not these. he isn't the mike that we used to know.

[Sonshu]

Crocop would take Tyson in his current form and would cause a big problem when he was on top form.

But he is something else.

Tyson is no spring chicken anymore though so his time like all greats has sadly passed.

[Developing]

The last thread was correct Tyson's time is just about done. He doesn't have the power, speed, timing and stamina (which he never had a lot of anyway) that he used to. But he still has enough power that if he gets in close to many of these mixed martial artists he'll kill them.

[Sonshu]

He will mess up most people irrespective of art be it trad or MMA.

But that is beacue he was an opponent at the top of the fight game, I do think the statement about his lack of ability is wrong, he is technically skilled and very good with speed, timing and execution of his ability, I think time away from training methods he used to have and age are his downsides.

Also his height as there are a lot of tall top boxers around now, also the myth has been broken, much like the gracie myth - still top fighters but not the unbeaten gods they once were.

I would say make no mistake Tyson was LEATHAL in his day, just time has caught him.

[Stuart H]

ok, i don't want to hijack the thread but, do you honestly think he would last more than around with any of the previously mentioned legends? I like to reguard most of you with more intellignece than that.

Do you have the height/weight of all the fighters you named?

[NaughtyKnight]

He will mess up most people irrespective of art be it trad or MMA.

But that is beacue he was an opponent at the top of the fight game, I do think the statement about his lack of ability is wrong, he is technically skilled and very good with speed, timing and execution of his ability, I think time away from training methods he used to have and age are his downsides.

Also his height as there are a lot of tall top boxers around now, also the myth has been broken, much like the gracie myth - still top fighters but not the unbeaten gods they once were.

I would say make no mistake Tyson was LEATHAL in his day, just time has caught him.

Yep, I still wouldnt want to be caught on the wrong side of him.

On the original question, which is stupid, yes Boxing can and does beat karate. The most experienced fighter wins the fight, irrespective of fighting style.

[Timmy Boy]

But he still has enough power that if he gets in close to many of these mixed martial artists he'll kill them.

I'm not sure I agree with that, look at his fight with Lewis where he kept getting clinched all the time, and imagine what will happen if an MMA fighter clinches him.

[Martial_Mathers]

The most experienced fighter wins the fight, irrespective of fighting style.

My thoughts exactly!