HKD ... beware of HKD with TKD masters [Archive]

sputnik

12-May-2003, 08:59 PM

HKD

14-May-2003, 06:07 PM

yes i have seen this too in some schools. alot to tkd schools will teach tkd sparing forms and then a few hkd sd techniques. my instructor did both as well but he and his brothers did triditional hkd they did all there training in korea.
i teach triditional style hkd but i have added a few tkd kicks and drills to mix it up a bit. but i don't use them in the SD techniques i teach.

HKD

Ancient Dragon

01-Jun-2003, 07:23 AM

hey, have you guys heard of ancient dragon hapkido? I have no worries about whether im learning enough hapkido, i just want to know if people from other parts of canada have heard of my dojan
the instructor is jeff leel, hes a 10th degree in ancient dragon hapkido and a 9th in Black Arts Society Hapkido.

Jazman

01-Jun-2003, 07:41 AM

my instructor teaches both TKD and HKD at the same time, we do learn some TKD type kicks but stick mainly to HKD techs. We are required to learn 10 techs for first belt. Does anyone know about how many are normally learned for the second belt? We learn about 20.

Ancient Dragon

01-Jun-2003, 07:45 AM

ten techs for what? we need to know 2 techniques for every basic attack for they yellow belt, so all told 22-30 techniques

Marku

11-Jun-2003, 04:02 PM

I might be starting to do martial arts somewhere that does a mix of Hapkido and Taekwndo, ive forgotten the full name of the place though. Jung keen do or something.

LilBunnyRabbit

11-Jun-2003, 06:06 PM

If someone's a tenth degree in something its usually a safe bet that they came up with the style, or at least the name.

Sweeet

12-Jun-2003, 05:50 AM

Originally posted by ckdstudent
If someone's a tenth degree in something its usually a safe bet that they came up with the style, or at least the name.

Moreover, 'Hapkido' in it's current state was only really 'created' in the mid 90's, so I don't know how 'ancient' 'ancient dragon' Hapkido is. I also don't know what the difference is between the 'ancient' version and the normal stuff :p

Oh and I looked up 'jeff leel' (just a quick google search) - the only thing I found was a reference to a low dan ranking in Tae Kwon Do.

I could be wrong but, smells like a McDojo/fraud to me!

ZaCO

12-Jun-2003, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by Sweeet
Moreover, 'Hapkido' in it's current state was only really 'created' in the mid 90's, so I don't know how 'ancient' 'ancient dragon' Hapkido is.

In the mid 90's? I don't know which hapkido you are talking about but at least Sin Moo Hapkido was founded in 1984 by Ji Han Jae. Before that there have been those korean associations and federations which names have changed over time but first time something was called 'hapkido' was in the mid 50's. Not sure what you mean by 'current state' though. I doubt Sin Moo Hapkido has changed that much in the last few years.

I agree that ancient dragon hapkido smells really bad. :) I haven't heard of that before.

Originally posted by Marku

I might be starting to do martial arts somewhere that does a mix of Hapkido and Taekwndo, ive forgotten the full name of the place though. Jung keen do or something.

At least Sin Moo Hapkido teaches all the kicks that there is in Taekwondo AFAIK. Actually I think there is nothing in TKD that isn't in SMHKD and we have so much more in SMHKD (ground fighting, throws, many different hand strikes, many many joint locks, blocks, and we spar more or less full contact and of course half of the SMHKD should be meditations and such.. but it depends on the teacher).

Cain

12-Jun-2003, 10:51 AM

Well the style could be hapkido and the name of the school would be 'ancient dragon hapkido'

*shug*

|Cain|

ZaCO

12-Jun-2003, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by cain_charlie
Well the style could be hapkido and the name of the school would be 'ancient dragon hapkido'

*shug*

|Cain|

I suppose it could. A quick search with google didn't produce anything interesting. Then again it could be a really rare style or a really new one. It would be great to know how it differs from the other hapkido styles if it was a style.

Marku

13-Jun-2003, 10:59 AM

how many styles of Hapkido are there around?

i found out full name for what ill be doing.

Jung Do Kwan Taekwondo/Hapkido.

jejanim

16-Jun-2003, 06:29 AM

the styles change with the techer you pick. some will have a lot of TKD..some will have more Jitsu. Some even have Kung fu mixed in. My style encorporates the kicks from TKD, the locks throws etc. from Hapkido, and a lot of Jitsu/Vale Tudo grappling. its a very well rounded art im taking now.

jeja

tomek

07-Aug-2003, 10:08 PM

there should be about 20-30 tech for each belt, like it was long time ago...and still is in KSW and HRD.
kicking: really depends on master, I've seen realy good kicks, not always straight leg, but in the beginning dora chagi was done only with straight leg, like in HRD.

Ancient Dragon

26-Aug-2003, 08:51 PM

Yo, im sure everyone has stopped caring about my post about 3-4 months ago about ancient dragon hapkido, but, i wanna clear some stuff up. When i posted that, I had only been in my MA class for about 1 month, and didnt really know what i was talking about, recently i learned that most of what i said was mostly, or completely incorrect. Ancient Dragon is the heading of our school, it isnt its own style of hapkido, its a mix of HKD Jujitsu and kenpo karate. My master, made is own fighting style out of the three, and ao ancient dragon was born. As for his 9th dan in HKD, that is true, i didnt really know how it worked before, and i thought that the club he belonged to when he got his 9th degree in HKD was its own little style of hapkido, it wasnt. He was awarded his 9th degree by his master when he belonged to the Black Arts society. As for the low dan ranking in tkd, he does have a blackbelt in tkd, so that explains that. So, key points, I was dumb and mis-informed when i first posted here, the fighting style is a mix of three martial arts, the dojan is not yet one year in running and the website isnt up yet, so no internet info, and please forgive my ignorance in the past.

HKD

28-Aug-2003, 01:38 PM

good come back most people would have just let taht slip undir the by and not say anything.

HKD

Chris from CT

28-Aug-2003, 08:41 PM

Personally, I commend you for clarifying your previous posts. :)

I just have one question. Who is/was your teacher's hapkido instructor that promoted him to 9th dan? No disrepect intended, just honestly curious.

Take care :confused:

Jointlock

27-Sep-2003, 11:05 PM

I have heard of 5th degree TKD black belts in my area going to 4 Hapkido seminars a year and then getting matched rank in Hapkido from going to those seminars. Then they start teaching what they learned at those seminars and marketing their school as teaching Hapkido.

On the other hand my master's master who was a student of the Chang Moo Kwan (not the same as one of the original tae kwon do kwans). This Chang Moo Kwan taught Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, and Yudo (Korean for Judo). They were actually proficient in each of these arts. This was also before the WTF and the Hapkido and Tae kwon do kick were the same. First students were taught Tae kwon do, and/or yudo. When they became black belts in these arts they were allowed to attend hapkido classes. My instructor was also taught the same way.

So, it really just comes down to if the instructor has actually learned Hapkido, or if they are just trying to use the name to get people in the door.

hapkiyoosool

23-Oct-2003, 06:09 PM

I see too many pretenters out there.

I grew up in Korea and have studied ONLY Hapkido all my life.

There are NO kicks in pure Hapkido techniques.

Kicks are practices in small doses so that you understand how they work to build a better defense against them.

Thomas

23-Oct-2003, 09:39 PM

"In 1954, Bok-Sub Suh was involved in an incident where he had to defend his father, Dong-Jin Suh, who was up for election to the National Assembly. A fight ensued against a few gangsters, and using kicks learned through his training in Yoo Sool, Suh defeated the gangsters. After some thought, Suh decided to suggest to Choi that the name Yoo Sool be changed to Yoo Kwon Sool, to represent the fact that besides joint locks and throwing techniques, they were also practicing strikes and kicks.

After the end of the Korean War while Choi was still teaching Bok-Sub Suh, he opened his own private school at his house and began to teach a few other students. This was in 1953. Some of the students during this period had already founded, or have gone on to found their own martial art styles. They include, Hwang-Kee (Tang-Soo-Do), In-Hyuk Suh (Kuk Sool Won), Dr. Joo-Bang Lee (Hwa Rang Do), Young-Sil Jang(Hapkido), Bong-Soo Han(Hapkido), and Han-Jae Ji (Hapkido).

Aikijutsu, applied by combining physics, geometry and physiology, was developed in to present day Hapkido. Aikijutsu is the base which is very important when examining present-day Hapkido. Hapkido as a counterpart to Aikijutsu differs mainly only by its skillful implementation of dynamic kicks which are all below waist level. You wouldn't punch someone in the foot would you? High kicks were originally designed to knock the rider off the horse by breaking the riders leg, the low kicks are for horses, as horses legs are easier to break than a human legs. Low and high kicks are learned to defend against kicks and powerful hand strikes learned to defend against hand strikes. It was this difference in mind that original Hapkido (HapkiYooSool) was created, producing a dynamic balance of both methods. The sword and staff are the main weapons we train with and which all empty hand techniques come from."
source: http://www.hapkiyoosool.com/hist.htm

(1) I fear there is either a misunderstanding on my part ...or...
(2) Maybe you aren't who you say you are... or...
(3) Maybe the site is wrong... but I really hope that...
(4) You aren't a troll.

hapkiyoosool

23-Oct-2003, 11:22 PM

Thomas

24-Oct-2003, 01:22 AM

Originally posted by hapkiyoosool
[B
If Bok-Sub Suh chooses to use kicks instead of the joint locks is totaly up to him. GM Choi never used kicks in his techniques and did not learn kicks from Takeda. GM Ji Han-Jae also like kicks. They come from a Korean art called TaeKyon. We also practice strikes and kicks to learn how to defend against them. We NEVER use them in a technique.
You'll notice it says we practice strikes and kicks. It does not mean they are part of the Hapkiyoosool technique.

You said, "I fear there is either a misunderstanding on my part"

Let's go with this one. It makes everyone feel better.

I may be new to this forum but, be careful who you offend. That little old homeless man could be a very rich man living in humility. There is a "new kid" on the block, it does not mean that you need to disrepect him on the first day.

You can twist what the Bible says too, that I would not even think about. [/B]

Maybe I did misunderstand. I was not trying to offend but rather I saw that many of your postings seemed a bit "trollish"... talking about no kicks in Hapkido and talking about "pure" styles and such... usually found in trollish posts.

I wrote my response to tell you, honored poster, that if you were (or are) not Master Allen then I will be watching in order that you don't post things under a false name with the intention of dishonoring him. That's my reason for posting.

About the homeless man and rich man reference, I don't know what you mean... but I do know that humility, especially when talking about martial arts, is a valuable skill which EVERYONE can use.... whether white belt, 2 dan, or 5 dan.

You may be a "new kid" on the block and I am truly sorry if my postings offend you, but the respect goes both ways. If you post topics that are very "my way is this... this is best... etc.", you will get some negative replies. That's why it's a discussion forum.

I don't understand your comments about the bible...

As for kicking in Hapkido... as far as I am concerned... based on what I have learned... there is kicking in Hapkido. If your style is different, good for you. Please share your experience and opinions with all of us. I, for one, will read your posts happily. Again, in closing, if I offended you, I apologize.

John_IHF

24-Oct-2003, 04:07 AM

There are Kicks in Hapkido ok good, But what I believe Master Allen is trying to get across is that the kicks are not going to be used with techniques. Like the techniques don't involve locking someone up with a joint lock then kicking there upper torso while having them locked. Sure the kicks them selves can be used as offensive tools but Hapkido is and always should be a defensive art. You shouldn't just be going around trying to attack people. GM Myung Jae Nam and GM Jang Young-shil were good friends that is why they had the same patches International Hapkido federation. But the thing is that GM Myung Jae Nam believe that there were changes needed to be made and founded HanKido which is just fine because I'm sure he believes that the art is gonna grow and I'm sure it has thought it is a completely different martial art to Hapkido sure it implies Hapkido and from what I've seen of Hankido schools (not that all schools are like this) it looks more like Aikido with Kicks. I'm sure its just the schools that I have seen and not the art itself. Its all about who is passing down the tradition of the art. If they want the art to grow they must teach the student with full circle wholeness not half cresent halfness. By teaching all that you know when they are ready to know you will allow an art to grow cause you want your students to be better then you rather then having the art decline for being watered down with missing details. Thats why sometimes people believe they are learning what they think they should be learning in other schools when they are really learning what the instructor is dishing out to them. Then when they come to our school their thought output on what they have been learning in their other school has a drastic change in feeling for art. We've had people from Taekwondo, Goju Kenpo, Soobakdo, ICHF, Barretts Hapkido, etc... and they have never before seen how easy and unstreneous each technique should applied and it just blows their mind when they have studied in an art for 2-15years that they have never before learned how to do it our way. But like I said before. Its all about who you are learning from and weither they will devote their patients to you so you may be able to learn.

Jointlock

24-Oct-2003, 10:07 AM

The history of Hapkido can become very clouded, especially when people naturally have different points of views and remember things differently. I believe that GM Choi and GM Ji should be recognized as cofounding the martial art. Gm Ji is responsible for the addition of the Ki and breathing exercises, kicking, many of the weapons techniques, and the name Hapkido. When the name was given to GM Choi as a gift he did not adopt the GM Ji's curriculum, and continued to teach yoo sool the same that he had been just calling it Hapkido.

Know this, I am not trying to discredit GM Choi. Without him there would be no Hapkido, Hwa Rang Do, Kook Sool, etc. Furthermore if someone is practicing Hapkido the way that GM Choi taught it then I would assume that they are a very skilled martial artist. The same goes for a student that learns Hapkido the way GM Ji teaches it.

hapkiyoosool

24-Oct-2003, 02:04 PM

Thomas, I understand you. Thank You. By the way, who is your IHF instructor and your president/founder? There are several IHF. Just wondering. We have Been International Hapkido Federation under GM Jang, Young-Shil since the 1960's in Korea.

To all,

There are many different styles of Hapkido.

There many styles of handwriting.

Personal style comes out of an instructor when he or she teaches. That is how we know an instructors personality just like reading handwriting. We know from the way they make their letters or perform the technique.

We do teach the SAME way GM Choi teaches. It is very difficult to teach this way in the US. You need a lot of patience. All of my students are extremely dedicated and have great integrity. They invited me to this forum. If at any time they seem a little over zealous, I aplogize for them in advance. :love:

Thank You all for your contributions to the art in your own way.

Thomas

24-Oct-2003, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by hapkiyoosool
To all,

There are many different styles of Hapkido.

There many styles of handwriting.

Personal style comes out of an instructor when he or she teaches. That is how we know an instructors personality just like reading handwriting. We know from the way they make their letters or perform the technique.

I like that quote very much and agree firmly.

I trained in Nonsan City in Chungchongnamdo under Master Choi Hyeon-kyu. Our federation is the International Hapkido Federation and the President was (while I was there) GM Jae-Nam Myong. I also studied Hankido under the same master.

I also studied Korean Guards Martial Arts (Han Gook Kyeong Ho Moo Sool) and was rank certified under Association President Ki Sang Kim. I was also formally recognized for my contributions to the Korea Guards Martial Arts by Association Presdient Ki Sang Kim.

Looking forward to your future postings. (By the way, I wish you success with your upcoming seminar... I wish I could attend.)

shadow warrior

28-Oct-2003, 11:11 PM

I have had significant exposure to more than a half dozen 2nd generation Hapkido Masters and Grandmasters. Most of these were direct students of Master Choi himself, to a greater or lesser degree.

The key to developing diversified skill sets which can be applied to Hapkido free fighting is simple..train with as many 2nd generation masters who will fight with you and help you as possible.

Hapkido is a living breathing martial art, not a set of robotic motions. To live this you must not ignore any sets of techniques which can kill you..in this case kicking..

Whether you can say a technique in Korean or not does not make it more or less effective..real life experience is only test..

TigerAnsTKDLove

09-Dec-2003, 02:10 AM

ok... i understand your post! but my master is not like what you just said. in fact my master is prolly one of the bests! seriously no lie. my master teaches hap ki do and tae kwon do also, he is a first dan judo black belt. my master is 6th degree in tkd and 5th degree in hapkido. my dad takes hap ki do at the place where i attend my tkd lessons and there kicks are way different from our kicks and also they use don jon breathing which we tkd students do not use. my master also attended the yongin university in korea! so my master is not no fake!

hapkiyoosool

09-Dec-2003, 04:24 PM

I would like to first say that I am not being biased because I have only studied Hapkido all my life. These are facts.

You CANNOT teach Hapkido with a Taekwondo mind. If this offends people, I do not apologize.

Try teaching Aikido with a Karate mind. Cannot be done.

Apples and oranges cannot be compared. They are different.

Ever try to eat American food cooked by Koreans? It's just not right. The taste is not correct or the ingredients are not right.
I don't eat Korean food made by Americans. Same, Same.
Growing up in Korea, I have eaten at OUTBACK STEAKHOUSE. TGI Fridays, Applebee's, and Chili's in Dowtown Seoul. It isn't the same as here in the US. Even the Walmart isn't the same. My wife gave up on trying to cook American food. It always came out, wierd. Even she wouldn't eat it.

The meaning of "DO" in Hap-ki-do and Tae-kwon-do means "The Way" You CANNOT travel down two roads at once. You pick one path and follow it where ever it leads, sometimes you stumble and fall. You get back up and keep going. The easy path is not going to make you stronger. Straight and Narrow. One heart, One mind, One Body, One Way. Maybe I am a fool for being loyal to my instructor. I have been called stupid because I do not believe in cross training in other arts. That is how I was taught. Loyalty to my instructor and my style. I have many students in my school who come from other styles. I ask them why they left their previous school. They all have the same answer. "I wasn't getting what I wanted out of the training."
What makes them think that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence? If you take care of your own yard and give it your 100% attention and dedication, you will have the greenest yard anywhere. You won't have time to look else where. Granted, there are some con-artist martial arts schools out there.

Professional fakes, they are out there! Look at this!!! (http://www.ohiotkd.net/taekwondoreporter/page5.htm)

PROVERB: "A double minded man is unstable in all he does."

I have ranted enough. Take it as you wish, I don't sugar coat anything. Truth is a jagged little pill. It makes you more aware of your real world. ;)

Marku

09-Dec-2003, 05:56 PM

"What makes them think that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence? If you take care of your own yard and give it your 100% attention and dedication, you will have the greenest yard anywhere"

nice speech hapkiyoosool :-)

shadow warrior

11-Dec-2003, 06:25 PM

Sincerity is usually not the problem with junior students. They will often train hard at Macdojangs not knowing they are being scammed!!

The most difficult decision for a student of Hapkido then becomes; Which lawn is WORTH watering??

For what it's worth, NO HARDCORE Hapkido instructor I know teaches TKD in the same school..This includes more than a half dozen direct 2nd generation Hapkido Masters.

My second instructor often told the few senior Black Belts in his school: "Beware then the two faced person as their mind is divided."

Thomas

11-Dec-2003, 07:32 PM

I think it really depends what a student is looking for, what their goals are. If you are attempting to pursue as pure a style as possible, then some of the warnings here are very good. If you are trying to learn effective martial arts and have no qualms about cross training and learning information from various sources, then it doesn¡¯t matter so much what style or styles a school teaches, but rather how effective they are.

I have trained in Traditional Hapkido and enjoyed it. I have also trained in Taekwondo and enjoyed it. I also train in Combat Hapkido, a system which is NOT traditional Hapkido but advocates heavy cross training.

My goal is to be an efficient martial artist. If you find a good instructor, then you shouldn¡¯t have to worry so much about whether your style is ¡°pure¡± or not, and what generation of instructor they learned from as long as it is effective. Time spent worrying about how ¡°pure¡± your style is and time spent avoiding schools because they teach more than one art is, in the end, less time training.

Additionally, many people have few choices where to train. To not learn Hapkido, an art that I love, because the instructor also teaches Taekwondo, and maybe is the only Hapkido and Taekwondo provider in the area, seems a bit silly to me.

shadow warrior

11-Dec-2003, 08:31 PM

Thomas:

I see where you are coming from and you have some good points as always..however, what you are advocating is MMA cross training..nothing wrong with that. But, that is not Hapkido in an integrated sense. No common underpinnings.

All I am saying is that if a person is seeking Hapkido in its generally recognized form, then Hapkido is NOT TKD, JKD, BJJ or whatever other style people want to drag into it.

I thought that the thread was about beware..TKD..HKD ..

We must be carefull to explain to beginners how to distinguish the differences on the scale of 'most like to least like' Hapkido in the (OH NO!!) "traditional" sense..

I know you are more than familiar with this problem..as it manefests itself today in Hapkido.

I know the basic problem is the lack of dedicated Hapkido schools tracing their roots back to original Masters from the 50's and 60's.

Traditionally flavoured Hapkido is VERY HARD to learn..so some people just try and make it easier to attract students..that's all.

Just don't call it Hapkido!

hapkiyoosool

11-Dec-2003, 09:56 PM

"Traditionally flavoured Hapkido is VERY HARD to learn..so some people just try and make it easier to attract students..that's all."

"I know the basic problem is the lack of dedicated Hapkido schools tracing their roots back to original Masters from the 50's and 60's."

This is why we only have 40 students. This is why we only have 5 schools world wide. Three in Korea, one in the US, and we just opened one in Germany.

TKD and HKD in the same school is NOT traditional Hapkido. Not pure as far as I am concerned(oops! there goes that ego again). Not to sound overly aggresive on my defense of Hapkido but, I refuse to apologize for being a traditionalist and being pure. Too many people out there think they are teaching Hapkido. Marc Tedeschi's 1135 page Hapkido book is proof enough about that. I see a handful of Hapkido type techniques done but again, with a TKD mind. I have NEVER found a good Hapkido Book (aside from Bong-Soo Han who is like an uncle to me). I am writing one however, that will be truthful and show correct technique and application. Not that I am perfect nor claim to be. What I learned in Korea from one who studied under Choi, Young-Sool. We have had our school open in the US for 3 years. ANYONE who said they trained in Hapkido, never said they did again after visiting our school. They said it was an eye opener.

This is an open invitation to all to come and see for yourself. I know I sound egotistical to some. Different are self confidence and ego. I am sure of what I teach. I have seen 8mm of GM Choi in Korea. We teach exactly the same thing.

I will point you to my previous post---><b>HKD with a TKD mind</b>

Welcome to our school. ^_^

Jointlock

11-Dec-2003, 10:48 PM

Have you ever seen Dr. He-Young Kimm's books? I think they are very well put together.

Speaking of Bong Soo Han what do you think of him promoting people in Hapkido via video tapes? Some of these videos I have seen and there is more kicking than anything else. This seems to go against your Hapkido philosophy.

hapkiyoosool

12-Dec-2003, 12:38 AM

I have seen Dr. Kimm's techniques. They are not the same as ours. That is all I can say. You cannot learn hapkido from a book. You need to feel the technique, I think we all agree with that.

I don't agree with the video tapes as far as learning. You Cannot learn Hapkido from video. Thay are good however for students to refresh while home sick or on vacation. As far as kicking. That is the only thing I don't like about that. Koreans first believed that Americans like kicking because that is what we were first exposed to, or thought that martial arts were supposed to have kicks. I wouldn't say he sold out. He still teaches the true technique.

Jointlock

12-Dec-2003, 03:38 AM

Dr. Kimms original Hapkido bible was written in colaboration with GM Ji Han Jae, and from what I've heard is GM Ji's original curriculum. It is an expensive book, but the most comprehensive and best I've seen for Hapkido. Dr. Kimm has since formed HanMuDo and has added some Kuk-sool and other martial arts techniques to his art. His Hapkido 2 book is pretty much his Hanmudo curriculum.

Grandmaster Han's program that I speak of, has people learn from his video tape collection, then copy the techniques from the tapes, tape themselves doing them, and then send those tapes in to get promoted. No actual contact with him is necassary. There is a TKD instructor here in Nebraska that was going through his program and was promoted to green or blue belt, and he knows less about Hapkido than my yellow belts.

I'm sure GM Han is a great Hapkidoist, and I am thankful for what he has done for promoting the art, but this video tape thing kind of blows me away.

Thomas

12-Dec-2003, 02:43 PM

I get tired of hearing that someone such as myself does not study true Hapkido? or that my Hapkido isn't the right kind? or that because I learn Hapkido in a school that teaches TKD as well, that my style is not valid? To say that I have not learned traditional Hapkido is an insult to me, my instructors and the International Hapkido Federation, of which I hold a 2nd dan under. Further more, without knowing me and the way that I train, it is a further insult.

I personally don't see Hapkido as being a pure style?at all. Hapkido comes from Aikijujitsu and is mixed (CROSS TRAINED) with Tae Kkyeon, other old Korean elements (some which may have come from China). If you argue that you learn PURE Hapkido as taught by the founder, you learn Aikijujutsu. If you learn the later styles by Choi's students, you learn a mixed style.
There are (and were) lots of different Hapkido kwans and they all do it a bit differently. In the words of Shadow Warrior "Hapkido is a living breathing martial art, not a set of robotic motions. To live this you must not ignore any sets of techniques which can kill you..in this case kicking..?

To simply that everyone is wrong except your own is at best, naive and closed minded, and at worst arrogant.

Yes, I learn at a school that teaches Hapkido and Taekwondo. Should you beware of it? No. Why not? In Taekwondo, my master has trained some students who went on to become state champions (NY) and produced some very good competitors, some of whom went to Nationals. Might not sound like much, but we are a very small school in an isolated area of the country. As for Hapkido, my master was inducted into the World Karate Union's Hall of Fame as "2002 Hapkido Instructor of the Year"(http://members.tripod.com/worldkarateunion.org/id28.htm) and will be inducted into the 2004 Action world Martial Arts Hall of Fame (http://www.martialartsexpo.com/) Again, not bad for a small school with a humble master who trains hard and seeks no recognition (Both awards were big surprises). By the way, quality of the instruction: excellent. Would I leave this school to train at a traditional school with one of the highly qualified instructors who can claim direct descent from numbers of grandmasters? Not at all.

Are there some schools that teach Hapkido and Taekwondo poorly? Yes. That's why it is more important to check out the schools before you go. My advice though, don't discount a school ONLY because they offer more than one style. Are there good ones? Yes, for example, where I train.

As some wise men have said: "Sometimes, two minds are stronger than one.?

(If this post has made anyone mad or hurt, I do apologize, but I refuse to have my training, my master, or my way of training insulted. I love to share experience and ideas, but get sick of having my background and training put down by people who don't know me.)

History sources: http://www.hapkiyoosool.com/hist.htm and http://www.martialartsplanet.com/magazine/articles/hapkido1.htm

hapkiyoosool

12-Dec-2003, 03:31 PM

I see you used your history sources from our website. Hapkiyoosool.com
thank you,I am honored!
Hapkiyoosool in Japanese is pronounced, Aikijujutsu. We do not teach kicks(per say). You will also see us wearing Hakama. Ever wee that in a hapkido school? We study how kicks are performed to know how to better defend against them. TaeKyon was the choice hard style of the period, thus we learn how TaeKyon kicks work. I have never kicked anyone. Step on their ankle pressure points to make them pass out, yes.

YOU SAID: "As for Hapkido, my master was inducted into the World Karate UnionÃÔ Hall of Fame as ¡¦002 Hapkido Instructor of the Year¡¦"
May I ask you a question after my comment without anger, but deep thought? I have been offered MANY "Hall of Fame" inducts. I refused them all. Did you master have to pay his own way there, his dinner ticket, and hotel room? Now I will ask this. How many "Hall of Fame" people do you know in any other art like music, or sports like footbal who had to foot their own bill to be inducted. If you have to pay to be inducted, it just isn't right. Think about paying to recieve the "Nobel Peace Prize". It just sounds ludicrous!!

If you feel insulted by what people are saying about TKD/HKD schools. I can guarentee you that it is because MOST of them are belt factories, you can agree with that. It was not a personal assault on anyone. Please don't take the dicussion forum so personal. Take it professionaly by saying things like. "I agree with you guys about the majority of TKD/HKD schools, I am glad we learn both very real in our school and I support you guys and look forward to sharing more with you." Not to put words in anyones mouth.
Please understand, I am a friend who would like you to grow and flourish in the arts with patience and understanding.

Anger does not suit any martial artist. Emotion will take you on a ride, further than you want to go, and keep you longer than you want to stay.

Think of it this way: Your spirit leads mind, mind leads body. Spirit is personality, Mind is emotion and choice, body reacts to choice.
We choose to be angry or upset.
The most inportant thing to a sword is the blade. If the blade "Looses its temper" it gets dull and breaks. So is the spirit and mind.

We allow our enemies to defeat us through our own mistakes. There are no ememies in here.

I will say this last thing. You will find that Hapkido taught in a only Hapkido school differs from Hapkido taught in a TKD school. That is fact. After visiting over 90 school in the US, that is all I do is report what I have seen. Not a personal view or opinion.

If you still feel I am wrong, I am sorry. I stand strong in my convictions and in the evidence of what myself and others have seen.

As for me and my school, we teach Hapkiyoosool. ^_^

Thank You.

Thomas

12-Dec-2003, 03:55 PM

"I see you used your history sources from our website. Hapkiyoosool.com
thank you,I am honored!"
-You're welcome. I like the site, as well as the article I mentioned.

"Hapkiyoosool in Japanese is pronounced, Aikijujutsu. We do not teach kicks(per say). You will also see us wearing Hakama. Ever wee that in a hapkido school? We study how kicks are performed to know how to better defend against them. TaeKyon was the choice hard style of the period, thus we learn how TaeKyon kicks work. I have never kicked anyone. Step on their ankle pressure points to make them pass out, yes. "

-Yes, some of the masters in Korea wore Hakama. Some Hapkido schools, not Hapkiyoosool, teach kicks. We've been over this before.

"YOU SAID: "As for Hapkido, my master was inducted into the World Karate UnionÃÔ Hall of Fame as ¡¦002 Hapkido Instructor of the Year¡¦"
May I ask you a question after my comment without anger, but deep thought? I have been offered MANY "Hall of Fame" inducts. I refused them all. Did you master have to pay his own way there, his dinner ticket, and hotel room? Now I will ask this. How many "Hall of Fame" people do you know in any other art like music, or sports like footbal who had to foot their own bill to be inducted. If you have to pay to be inducted, it just isn't right. Think about paying to recieve the "Nobel Peace Prize". It just sounds ludicrous!!"

- I mentioned that he was inducted into a Hall of Fame as "Hapkido Instructor of the Year", not to be arrogant but to show that a man who trains as he does has been recognized. He did not seek the recognition and yes, he had to pay his transportation and hotel. The dinner was free and there were no "fees" aside from that. Why does being recognized have to be a bad thing? And I presume that Football Hall of Famers pay their way to the location and for their hotel. I find it 'ludicrous' to discount a Hapkido Instructor BECAUSE he was inducted into a Hall of Fame as an instructor of the year. Maybe you could have used your own advice and replied professionally with "I am happy that you are trained under such a good teacher."

"If you feel insulted by what people are saying about TKD/HKD schools. I can guarentee you that it is because MOST of them are belt factories, you can agree with that. It was not a personal assault on anyone. Please don't take the dicussion forum so personal. Take it professionaly by saying things like. "I agree with you guys about the majority of TKD/HKD schools, I am glad we learn both very real in our school and I support you guys and look forward to sharing more with you." Not to put words in anyones mouth. "

- Read my other 490-some posts here, please. You will see that I do my utmost to share my knowledge in a professional and open-minded way without talking down to people. About the topic, yes I know there are some good ones and some bad ones. Some does not mean all. About taking it personally, sometimes I do. I get sick of having my training and art put down in a condescending way by people who come off as being arrogant, whether intentionally or not.

"Please understand, I am a friend who would like you to grow and flourish in the arts with patience and understanding. "

-For that, I sincerely thank you. I read your posts and whether I agree or disagree I think about them.

"Anger does not suit any martial artist. Emotion will take you on a ride, further than you want to go, and keep you longer than you want to stay."

- Don't confuse anger with something else. Some things need to be said. The day that senior belts believe they cannot learn anything more from their juniors is a sad day for any art.

"I will say this last thing. You will find that Hapkido taught in a only Hapkido school differs from Hapkido taught in a TKD school. That is fact. After visiting over 90 school in the US, that is all I do is report what I have seen. Not a personal view or opinion."

- I have trained in Hapkido schools, in Taekwondo school, and in schools that teach both. Guess what? ALL schools teach differently and some are good and some aren't.

I hope I haven't hurt anyone's feelings, but some things need to be said. Regarding the original topic, it is so important to checkl out school thoroughly before signing on. If you want to study Hapkido and the only option is through a school that also teaches TKD, investigate it. You may come across one of the good ones out there, like I managed to.

Thomas

15-Dec-2003, 03:11 PM

If any of my previous posts in this topic have offended anyone, I do apologize. I treasure this site for allowing the exchange of opinions and ideas, even within martial arts styles. I believe my opinions on this thread are clear and will only add to this post if new questions come up. If anyone would like additional or specific information, please PM me.

doshim

23-Jun-2004, 10:02 PM

Grand Master Han no longer tests people via video. It was an experiment that met with less than satisfactory results. No one was ever promoted to Black Belt in that fashion. In fact, in the 36 years that he has been teaching in the United States, he has only promoted 93 Black Belts.

GMH is trying his best to spread his way of Hapkido to the rest of the world. The video testing was abandoned due to difficulties on both ends.

Most sincerely,

Jon Davis
Director of Operations
Grand Master Bong Soo Han's
International Hapkido Federation
[url]www.bongsoohanhapkido.com
310.829.2643

hapkiyoosool

23-Jun-2004, 11:14 PM

John,

We have talked before and I agree with Grandmaster Han totally. It is the same with Grandmaster Chang who grew up with Grandmaster Han. He too has promoted very few black belts and only 7 to instructorship of 4 Dan or above.

I am happy that we are doing our best to teach it correctly. Please give GMH my regards and my wife also says hello to him. We are going to try and visit this summer. Please let me know his shedule if you could so I can make proper plans and get his approval for the time. hapkiyoosool@msn.com

Mastereddie

24-Jun-2004, 12:53 AM

Thomas I am with you Man! to say that just because a person learns from a master that teaches both TKD and KHD isn't a pure hapkidoist is one of the craziest blanket statements that i have ever heard. First of all hapkido is in no way a pure art being that it has evolved and taken pieces from other systems throughout the years. In my experience its not the country, the generation or the dojang that really has any effect on how a student comes out as a hapkidoist, its level of dedication and training that makes an individual something special. Tae Kwon do won't do anything to a hapkido practicioner except make him better and more evolved as an artist. As would boxing, wrestling, judo etc. Only the blind believe that thier art is the end all answer to fighting. Any one who has ever been involved in a fight knows that there is no predictable moves or answers. Its all ways changing, thats the reason for so many styles people who do fight have questions to certain things that they haven't seen before. Its amazing that even in 2004 people can still hav a closed mind about things especially the martial arts.
I came from a lineage of american and korean G.Ms that teach both TKD and HKD with the ability to seperate the both and teach them with clear differences. And as a Master of Both i have been blessed to learn how to teach them as two arts. secondly if you where taught by so called first or second generation GM's that great for you however it not a big deal!!! hate to bust some bubbles but if you didn't learn directly from Ji Han Je and i am not talking about a seminar in which you shook his hand i am talking about actual training...... your learning someone elses version of what GM Je taught them. My Grandmaster Trained with GM Je and he still puts a different spin on certain things that he teaches because everyone is different. Thats the wonderful difference in a Do verses an RYU A ryu is set in stone anything that strays from the original is no longer the same. As opposed to a Do its a way of life which means its constanly changing with the flow of life. has anyone ever seen a traditional hapkidoist try and do traditional knive defenses (dan do maki) against an escrima or arnis instructor. If you have you understand the meaning of cross training and adapting to change.

Thomas i know that you aren't worried about what some of these so called traditionalists, students of second generational GMs and the like are talking about because it sounds like you and you students train to hard to even let haters bug you :woo:
I feel the same way it all comes down to wether or not you believe in your self and your skill and what your GM has taught you because regardless of affiliation method or philosohpy some one spent time to teach you and that comes from the heart. :)

master eddie
4th dan Tkd Jidokwan & 4th Dan in Hapkido hurk Choo kwan
and for all the haters www.hurkchookwan. & www.hurkchoosociety.com
You can reach me I KEEP ALL MY NUMBERS LISTED :eek:

nj_howard

24-Jun-2004, 04:14 PM

mastereddie, i didn't detect any hate in any of the previous posts... might you be over-reacting?

questioning things is not the same as hating them, right?

Mastereddie

24-Jun-2004, 05:52 PM

special43543

26-Jun-2004, 02:20 AM

Forgive me for not reading this whole thread (I read the first few posts), but the school that I attend is a bit confusing. The grandmaster is a 9th degree blackbelt in TKD and an 8th degree blackbelt in HKD. He was originially from South Korea, and we have alot of korean term and flags in my dojang. The phonebook said it was TKD AND HKD, but the school door says TKD, and all of the students refer to the school as TKD. Now here is where the confusion comes in. The kicks are all TKD with a few HKD (as far as my understanding goes), and we are required to learn 20 hand techniques before we can advance on from a whitebelt. Is this standard for a TKD school or are all of these hand techniques the HKD part of the school?

I don't really know what to tell you more on, but if you have any questions so that I can better clearify my situation, please ask. Thanks guys.

nj_howard

26-Jun-2004, 05:42 PM

nj howard
"Haters" is a slang for jealousy :) Or not liking something because of lack of understanding it. Not actually Hate Hate i would think that the people on this forum would be more mature than that.
mastereddie, thanks for the clarification. sorry, i wasn't familiar with that slang term.

is it like the term "haterism" that the lead actor used in "barbershop"?

Thomas

28-Jun-2004, 03:58 PM

[special43543]Forgive me for not reading this whole thread (I read the first few posts), but the school that I attend is a bit confusing.

Greeetings! I hope by now that you have read the entire thread... it brings up many issues, good and bad, about schools that offer TKD and Hapkido.

The grandmaster is a 9th degree blackbelt in TKD and an 8th degree blackbelt in HKD. He was originially from South Korea, and we have alot of korean term and flags in my dojang. The phonebook said it was TKD AND HKD, but the school door says TKD, and all of the students refer to the school as TKD. Now here is where the confusion comes in. The kicks are all TKD with a few HKD (as far as my understanding goes), and we are required to learn 20 hand techniques before we can advance on from a whitebelt. Is this standard for a TKD school or are all of these hand techniques the HKD part of the school?

My best advice primarily is to ask the instructor and/or master of the school about these things (go to the source). Schools teach differently from each other and may have different requirements. It's okay to ask about the requirements... ask your instructor about the kicks... and when you learn about Hapkido kicking...

My advice would be to evaluate how you feel about the training in your school. Do you enjoy it? Does it seem practical? How well do the senior students perform? Have you checked out neighboring schools to see how this school compares (highly recommended)?

Additionally, if the instructor is teaching a mix of TKD and Hapkido, will that affect your respect for the school? Some people want to learn as "pure" a style as possible and others are more concerned first with school atmosphere and curriculum... it really depends what you want.

(Here's another thread to check out:http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5506)

Andy Cap

28-Jun-2004, 05:37 PM

Very entertaining thread indeed.

First off I love the passion that a few of you are showing about your martial arts!! That is very important to me.
I do worry though when people that are so passionate start to argue about "true and pure" martial arts. In my belief truth and purity comes from the instructor and are received or not received by the student.
Currently I train in a dojang where the instructor teaches both Tae Kwon Do and Hapki Do. He has spent years and years learnign both of these arts, and yes he learned them seperately. He has been in Korean martial arts since 1959. There is no doubt in my mind that he can teach both in the same school and be effective.
Now, you may suggest that if he had taught just one singular art, his students would be all that better off. I am not sure I want to argue that, but as a Tae Kwon Do student I feel I am getting plenty of instruction from him.
I do not study in the Hapki Do classes he runs. The people that do train in those classes are very happy with what they are learnign and the attention they receive in the class.

I would be interested to see if Hapki Do did have kicks in it in teh beginning, but I know that it does now. Maybe in some schools or organizations they do not teach kicks and that is their interpretation of the art, but there are many schools that appear to enterpret it differently. For good or bad.

Taliar

27-Jul-2004, 05:37 PM

Yeah watch out for High Dan instructors. By my reconing you would need to have been training for at least 50+ years to be a 10th Dan and even then it would be doubtfull. Many MA's stop having grading requirements once you get to about 4/5th Dan and after that it is awarded for work done within the MA and for continuing to teach etc.

The highest ranked person I know is a 7th Dan in Jujitsu. He was recently awarded his 7th Dan for services to his style by the AMA ruling body in the UK. Master Blundel has been training for over 40 years now has been. If any Younger person say's they are 10th Dan its well McDojo and Lies.

American HKD

28-Jul-2004, 05:02 PM

Greetings,

It has been my expirience ever since I started HKD in 1978 that TKD schools who claim to also teach HKD is just marketing.

Any time I went to any TKD/HKD school and inquired about HKD they would avoid the subject or say they just teach a few moves etc.

Most TKD Masters Korean or not are good at one or the other but rarely both.

evilkingston

16-Sep-2004, 11:49 PM

if your school/club/dojang is acknowledged by a large federation (so if your sabumnim is "official") i wouldn't worry much about conflict of interests concerning hkd/tkd...
and even if you're part of a small federation, there's nothing wrong with that;
everything's ok as long as you get out of hkd what you are looking for

on 9th & 10th degree blackbelts:
know that in Korea they usually go from a white belt directly to a black belt (in approx 2y) (train almost every day). Coloured belts are just marketing to give people goals/so it looks like it's going faster. In europe, it takes about 4y to get a black belt if you train a lot...
once you have 1st dan, you have to wait 1y for a chance to become 2nd dan
then it takes 2y (waiting period) and it continuos hencefort; so waiting 5y for a 4th dan to become a 5th dan (if then he/she doesn't pass, he can retry in 1y)
so: a 10th degree black belt (let's say he's a super talent + a korean + trains every day) will have to do hkd for 41y (so if he started when he was 12, he would have to be 53y old)
no insult intended: i know there are super talents , even martial arts universaties... but ... pfff... :bang: don't train for the colour of your belt or a degree, train so you can defend yourself properly, don't boast but practise

:rolleyes: i'm sorry, i've gone bruce on you guys
i hope i didn't become to teachery(?) --> professional error

:D

alienlovechild

15-Dec-2004, 05:00 AM

which kicks are better TKD or HKD? and what is kuk sool won?

BackFistMonkey

15-Dec-2004, 07:45 AM

which kicks are better TKD or HKD? and what is kuk sool won?

just in case your not flaming here is a good link to read over and decide which is better for YOU . Becouse frankly its about what you plan on doing with the kicks .Defending yourself or competeing in tournaments you usually just cant say one style is Better or has better kicks ... its all about the application .. rambling ..:eek: sorry

here is that link http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11512

search the forums search the forums search the forums search the forums search the forums

BlackDragon

17-Dec-2004, 05:52 AM

I am a formmer member of the WHRDA( world hwa rang do assoc.)
And my formmer do jo nim was one of the guy's in a way that helped hapkido get from korea to the states. well I will let him tell the story
http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/blackbelt9-00.htm
http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/blackbelt10-00.htm
http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/blackbelt11-00.htm
I hope this helps

BackFistMonkey

18-Dec-2004, 12:46 AM

mike-IHF

18-Dec-2004, 04:38 AM

BackFistMonkey

19-Dec-2004, 08:43 PM

reply,

Not to sound like an ass, but the artcles that were posted I have always found suspicous when talking about Hapkido training. When talking about his training with Choi Young-Sul he said that he met him in the 1950's after his family re-located to Taegu. And then he said that he and his brother reached master ranks in Yu Sul under Choi in 1956. Considering the fact that Choi was pretty much teaching Aikijujutsu, I find it impossible to reach a master level in 6 years regardless of what he studied before hand. Just my opinion.

very good point Mike .
I hadnt done the math on that one . I understand being granted black blelt in an art quickly if you are a Master in another and the MA's are related to each other or are very similiar in application, BUT ... it should take you much longer than six years to reach Master level from THAT point . It does sound quite rushed .
But then again I never claim to be an expert and I am sure some people have an amazing learning curve ... but six years to claim to be a Master if a MA does sound questionable .

Does anyone have any more info ?

BackFistMonkey

American HKD

19-Dec-2004, 10:40 PM

Greetings

If you check deeper you'll see this was a politcal motivated rank promotion to unify two Associations.

Also you must understand the HKD curriculum only went to 4th Dan after that rank was just for putting in another year or two in the system. So technically it was no big deal. Also it was possible that you could get to 3rd or 4th Dan in eight years. A year or two for 1st dan and another dan every year or two.

In the early days rank didn't take as long as it does now and there were many people in thier late 20s and 30s with high dan ranks.

Only after the avent of associations was it possible to control rank and set time limits even if you knew the material you had to wait a required time to legitimize things in a sense.

BenTKD

31-Mar-2007, 02:18 PM

After reading through a number of the posts here I can see that there seems to be some confusion about Hapkido styles.

Where I live there are 3 Hapkido dojangs. The one that I go to is pure traditional Hapkido and 2 have masters that are originally TKD masters that now run HKD schools.

A couple of students have moved over to my dojang with "black belts" from the other dojangs. However their technique and accuracy was very poor, and their kicks were all TKD kicks and not HKD kicks. They also only knew a third of the self defence methods and joint locks that our black belts know.

I spoke to my master about it and he has said that it is very common these days for TKD schools to move over to Hapkido, however the technique is more TKD based than HKD.

To be able to tell the difference. Take a look at the kicking techniques. Hapkido kicks are always straight leg kicks (for kicks that apply... like crescent kicks, hook kicks, rising kicks etc).

It terms of joint locks and self defence... if you arent required to know at least 8-10 for your first belt i would be wary.

Talk to the master. Find out his background. See what he is originally trained in. Does he go to Korea regularily to learn from his master? Is the dojang certified by the KHF or any other Hapkido Federations?

Dont waste your time learning HKD... if it will in the end just be TKD with a couple of Hapkido joint locks.

"Taekwon-do contains many locks (and breaks) if we study properly. Early in its development Taekwon-do incorporated elements of another Korean art, Hapkido, including many of its joint locks. However, someone deemed much of them either too long, too complicated or not instant enough so they were discarded and those that were kept centred around being quick to apply or causing a break and not just a lock. Many locking techniques can be found within the patterns" (1)

I mean that statement justifies why the members you mentioned know some locks, well yes HKD and TKD share very similar principles. I think a good HKD school is one that is taught by someone who has studied mostly HKD in the first place. If their teachers as you said where Masters in TKD then I can understand their habit of passing on TKD kicks, come on, after all they been training/studying and teaching TKD for 20+ Years, easily done!

So my opinion is learning from does who have studied the art longest, thus if you learn from a TKD Master, your bound to get superb TKD techniques and the same for goes to a HKD Master. Its just one of those things, and instructors should understand this and think to themselves "Was that that a TKD kick I demostrated or HKD kick?" and own up to their faults.

(1) http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Stuart_Anslow_1.asp