WTF or ITF

[ronmeister]

HI All! I am a new entrant to the world of MA and am quickly getting enamoured with it. I have started with WTF TKD. My question is: which one is better - WTF or ITF TKD? or is it possible to compare them like this? Thanks in advance.

[KickChick]

It is not a question as to which one is better....

Unlike most of the other martial arts, TKD is made up of many clubs, associations unions, organizations... and politics. Yes there are two "factions" of Tae Kwon Do which is the World Tae Kwon Do Federation, and the International Tae Kwon Do Federation. The WTF was born and based in South Korea, in Kukkiwon (Seoul), while the ITF was born from North Korea and is now based in Canada and Vienna.
One the many differences between these 2 factions is in the structure of the politics. The International Olympic Committee recognizes the World Tae Kwon Do Federation as the governing body for "sport" Tae Kwon Do.
In the International Tae Kwon Do Federation there is no Olympic connections. You will find less emphasis on the "sport" of TKD ... and in most cases a more "traditional" -style of TKD.

[Helm]

Well it also depends on the school, so its hard to say whats best for you....

Imo neither is better than the other, my tkd teacher says they are both tkd, the kicks are almost identical, its just the politics.

[Joe karate]

Never studied it but my take comes from hearing others on MAP and friends. I would say ITF from the little i know because it uses hands more. WTF is more kick and jump and kick the head again. I've been told ITF and TKD in general USED to be taught right(in America) as a good long range style. Now (i've been told) it has degenerated with people buying belts.

whatever floats your boat man, just find a good school.

[Bigfoot]

Almost everyone that trains TKD in Denmark, trains WTF-style. The Danes are very 'fight' oriented and the idea of getting a trophy for beating someone up is a very attractive one.

I have watched and trained a little WTF-style TKD. I have still yet to see anyone lift their hands to protect themselves. But why should they? The style is sport-oriented. They score points by kicking each other in the head. Even though the possibility of scoring a point via a punch is present, the reality is, there is almost never awarded a point for it.

In the ITF, the techniques are almost the same as the WTF. A big difference is in the training of these techniques. Although both styles only have about 25% of their techniques as kicks, the WTF trains kicking more than 70% of the time, whereas the ITF is a little more rounded and teaches about 50% kicks.

ITF also teaches self defence techniques on a regular basis. The sparring in ITF also differs as you are allowed to hit and kick to all 'legal' parts of the body.

I would say that comparing ITF and WTF Taekwondo is like comparing a Golden Delicious apple with a Granny Smith apple. They are both apples, but other than that, they are completely different.

I have experienced a lot of people arguing over what TKD is and that one TKD is better than an other or that because one person doesn't train 'the right TKD', that they aren’t any good.

In the long run it is you who decides what you train and you that decides if you keep training or not. As long as you are happy with what you are doing/learning, then keep it up.

Just a little personal note: I train Maeng Sul Taekwondo and we kick about 25% of the time. Almost all of the kicks are performed at stomach level or lower unless we have substantially inhibited the possibility of a counter strikes. The main focus of the training is self defence and there are more than 175 self defence techniques to black belt varying from one or two basics up to about six to eight basics per SD technique. When we spar, all kicks and punches are allowed to all parts of the body including the back and groin. We also fight on the ground where again all techniques are allowed (except finger and toe locks - they break too quick), though biting, pinching, eye gouging and the like are only allowed in defence, not offence.

[craigwarren]

WTF and ITF also perform different patterns, just like different karate syles do different kata.

I dunno about all this stuff about what percentage of attacks are kicks and which are punches has much to do with the style, surly its down the personal preferences of the instructor and student in question???

[KickChick]

There are several differences between WTF and ITF styles, but techiques are the same. The way in which both WTF and ITF TKD schools instruct can be different. Instruction and styles frequently vary from school to school for several reasons. One may be a lack of continuity in curriculum among different schools in the same organization. Another may be that traditional instructors don't want to incorporate newer patterns and/or styles of technique into their teaching. Perhaps a very liberal instructor has taken to altering the pattern himself in order for it to be more in line with his own style. Also, patterns naturally and frequently mutate at they are passed down from one master to his student instructor.
Competition rules are different also. Competitions/tournaments differ also!
The ITF practices semi-contact sparring where hand attacks to the face and kicks to the groin are allowed. The WTF emphasizes full-contact competition style sparring, which is why many people call WTF Taekwondo a sport rather than a martial art. In the WTF, participants are not allowed to attack the face with hand techniques, to attack below the waist, or to grapple. Otherwise, they use full contact techniques. They use a scoring system that emphasizes the real delivered power of the technique. The opponent must be visibly moved by the force of an unblocked strike in order for a point to be awarded. And this may be the reason why their sparring techniques tend to be limited to those kicks that generate the most power.

[Helm]

I dont think the techniques are limited to appeal to the focus of sparring, but obviously some kicks are better because they are simple, leave you relitively on-balance regardless of wheather it makes contact or not and is generally a better "scoring" kick.

WTF TKD also has a wider range of kicks, with ITF missing 360 halfturning and Wheelkicks. Although i hear a few ITF schools teach this, but this is down to the teacher.

WTF sparring, because of its sport orientation, is very, very fast. As the emphasys is on making a solid contact, and blocking having little effect you'll see a very fast moving fight with attacker moving quickly and defender trying to move quicker to avoid, or lauch a full contact counter.

I cant comment too much on ITF, but i've seen some PUMA ITF here, and it was a terrible Mcdojo.
But im sure thats a minority, just unfortunate that the only ITF example in my area is this "Fries with that" version.

[Artikon]

I think Bigfoots's comment about comparing the two different apples is just about right, although I would say it is more apples to oranges. We are all under the umberlla of the name taekwondo and apples and oranges are under the same with fruit.

For techniques I would say generally the techniques are the same, with the exception of some of the more progressive kicking from the WTF developed soley for competition (I personally would never throw double round kick spin hook kick combo in the street but in the ring ya baby :D ) But the big difference is the execution of techniques. ITF tends to be a little lower relying on sine wave more tends to look more similar to karate from my experience (not exactly mind you before anyone jumps all over me for saying that)

As for being more sport orientated, this one gets my goat btw, yes WTF is generally more sport orientated but it is a sport organization where as Kukkiwon is seperate . . . however with that being said it is always up to the instructor to decide what to teach and what to put emphasis on in whatever organization be it wtf, itf, jkf ihf . . . the list goes on. How I'm taught and how I teach is heavy into poomse and self defense, but I do teach competition cause well . . . its a ton of fun

Now just going off in another direction . . . Bigfoot I have a question for you . . . do you feel learning and memorizing a ton of different self defense techniques is worthwhile?

[grandmaster mat]

i prefure ITF because its more traditional

[craigwarren]

Originally posted by KickChick
The ITF practices semi-contact sparring where hand attacks to the face and kicks to the groin are allowed.

Um are you sure. I've been told kicks to the groin and a BIG no no. Its just not cricket.

[Artikon]

i prefure ITF because its more traditional

But what exactly does that mean, why is ITF more traditional than WTF?

[craigwarren]

Originally posted by Artikon


But what exactly does that mean, why is ITF more traditional than WTF?

ITF is more traditional to tae kwon do because it was the form created by the creator of tae kwon do. It still contains the creators origional patterns and rules.

[Andrew Green]

The original patterns where straight from Shotokan...

Neither really has "Old" patterns, but what does that matter anyway?

Many people would consider "traditional" to be a bad thing ;)

[Artikon]

ITF is more traditional to tae kwon do because it was the form created by the creator of tae kwon do. It still contains the creators origional patterns and rules.

Hmmm, just to throw this out there. Gen Choi, did not create TKD, he submitted (debatable) the name Taekwondo for the art that was created by a variety of schools and people. This predates ITF by about 7 years.

On the issue of forms being older than the kukki/wtf poomse. Yup you're right there, but only because they have continued to develop their forms.
So my question why do forms make ITF more traditional than WTF

Stirrin the pot
Dave

[craigwarren]

Originally posted by Artikon


Hmmm, just to throw this out there. Gen Choi, did not create TKD, he submitted (debatable) the name Taekwondo for the art that was created by a variety of schools and people. This predates ITF by about 7 years.

On the issue of forms being older than the kukki/wtf poomse. Yup you're right there, but only because they have continued to develop their forms.
So my question why do forms make ITF more traditional than WTF

Stirrin the pot
Dave
well i think we're using the world traditional in different sences.

When i say ITF is more "traditional" i mean, it is still the origional tae kwon do, when tae kwon do was created, its patterns where layed out, its techniques listed and its rules created, that was the beginning of ITF, seeing as the man who submitted the style was the creator of the ITF.

When i say traditional, i mean traditional to tae kwon do. Remember that tae kwon do was officialy created april 11th 1955.

So what i mean is ITF TKD is more traditional because it is directly from the origonal TKD. If you want to take into account all the different styles that went into making TKD, then i'd have to say i wasnt sure which was more traditonal as i dont have very much idea about the styles that went into TKD.

I Hope you can see where my point is coming from now.

[hybrid_TKD]

Everything I have read about Tae Kwon Do history says that it dates back to 100 to 200 B.C.?

[craigwarren]

the word tae kwon do, was officially recognised as a martial art April 11th 1955. The arts that went into making taekwondo date back to around then, with many of its korean arts being created around the sillia dynasty which was arround 200AD.

And these arts all make up taekwon do yes. But what im saying is that i think (it may not be everyones opinion) that tradition of taekwon do is really the rules laid down by general choi since taekwon do was unified under that name by him. All the seperate arts taht go into taekwon do are not tae kwon do, they only become tae kwon do when they are united.

Im ready for the flames now :)

[Helm]

Whats up with Choi moving to canada anyways? I mean no offence to canadians, but canada is full of canadians!

Crazy guy...

Helm...way off topic once more.

[Artikon]

Im ready for the flames now

Okay you asked for it . . . . but I can't find my lighter ;)

Okay I won't debated the begininnings of TKD and Gen Choi's involvement in the actual creation . . . funny story though btw the only reason Gen Choi submitted the name TKD to the council was because he was a ROK General and and was able to "influence" decisions because of this . . . anyways continuing

I don't think tradition is something that can be really judged. This is actually what I was getting at by asking the question originally. Tradition is what you do, not what you follow. The way I train is traditional to me simply because that's how I started, will my training methods change? Then I suppose my traditions will change too. To me tradition is just another progression and has become a "buzz" word in the martial arts relating to older arts that have more of a militaristic way of doing things, such as TKD, Karate, etc.

Tradition is what I do, but others are always welcome to partake in my traditions, just like I hope I'm able to take part in theirs to continue my learing.

[Despoja]

Im sorry Artikon, but i believe Craigwarren is correct.

ITF is the True Taekwon do

[Helm]

And the rest are liars?

So a 1984 ford escort is better than a 2003 escort?

(Thats the only analgy i can think of, sorry :D)

[KickChick]

You are all failing to distinguish the true differences that set ITF and WTF apart... whether it be that one is more traditional than the other.

In the early 1960's TKD was "competitionalise". and the emphasis turned from form/hyung practice to that of contact sparring.

First generation masters including Choi were opposed to these changes brought about with the conception of the "WTF". They believed TKD to be a lethal martial art that should continue its use of Karate style sparring that did not use a body protection, thus not allowing hard contact, but allowed punches to the head.

Another difference between sport TKD (WTF) and traditional Karate based TKD (ITF) was the change from the "traditional" attack-block-counterattack method of sparring to that of the attack-counterattack method. The concept of blocking before counterattacking is used in traditional TKD and is shown in its forms/hyungs.

As sport TKD (WTF) yes, evolved through constant experimentation during competition, and so the block disappeared ... deemed ineffective.

These disagreements (among others) about what this new Korean martial art Tae Kwon Do should become, brought about the split between "traditional" TKD (the martial art) and the new competitive TKD (sport).
Traditional Tae Kwon Do is based almost entirely on Japanese principles, concepts, and techniques. Its four core training methods, patterns (poomse or hyung), breaking (kyukpa), sparring (kyorugi), and self-defense techniques (hoshinsul), are Japanese in origin.
Sport Taekwondo (notice difference in spelling) the 2003 escort .... did not develop these same philosophies as traditional TKD adopted from karate, so its perceived as a subset of the "original" TKD-- the 1984 escort.

[Artikon]

Im sorry Artikon, but i believe Craigwarren is correct.

Okay . . . why?



The concept of blocking before counterattacking is used in traditional TKD and is shown in its forms/hyungs.

It is also shown in the kukki/wtf as well. Blocks preceed strikes through the palgwae forms (from what I remember haven't practised in awhile) through the taegeuk forms, and from my experience up through the yudanja forms, at least until pyongwon, which is as high as I currently know.

.... did not develop these same philosophies as traditional TKD adopted from karate, so its perceived as a subset of the "original" TKD-- the 1984 escort

This is true, the kukki/wtf philosophies follow a chinese way of thinking more than Japanese. This is evident in the color belt forms following palgwae and taegeuk ideaologies. These ideas came from the I Ching.

Now I have a question that's been bugging me for abit, does anyone here know when the palgwae forms, and then taegeuk forms were created? Thanks

[KickChick]

.... in 1965, the (KTA) Korea Taekwondo Association formed a committee to create new forms, and introduced the Palgwe and Yudanja (Black Belt) forms.
In 1972, the ( WTF ) was formed and they standardized a yet another new set of forms called the Taegeuk Poomse

[Thomas]

(Kickchick: I love your replies... they are always so well presented and researched.)

When it comes to chooosing a Taekwondo style, don't do it based on the governing body (ITF or WTF). Keep in mind that these are political organizations that offer certification and curriculum guidance. You will do better to check out the local TKD schools and pick the one with the best instructor.

The WTF/ITF feud goes back to the 1955 merging of the kwans in South Korea (Korean War fighting was over, but deep tensions). Most of the kwans merged as Tae Soo Do, and changed the name to Tae Kwon Do. In 1973, the WTF was established to be the sole governing body (by SOUTH Korea) of all Taekwondo activites outside of Korea. This is what the books from South Korea say. This is why you will not find ITF schools in South Korea and why your ITF rank will not be honored in South Korea. If you train in South Korea, you will be ranked through the Kukkiwon and WTF.

One (or several, depending on sources) kwan under the leadership of General Choi left South Korea under threat of death (and in fact all references to General Choi were stricken from the history books and TKD curriculum in South Korea). He established the ITF as the sole governing body for Taekwondo. If you train in North Korea, you will follow the ITF and your ITF rank will be honored.

To come back to the original point, these organizations are political and hate each other not because of martial arts style or tradition, but because of deep Korean political rifts (still going on today). Some instructors teach their students to hate the other organization and engage in lots of negative talk (like the "the only true..."). The curriculum is pretty close and the history goes back about the same (as far back as 37 BCE). Various schools teach in different ways... if you went to one bad WTF school, it doesn't mean they are all bad (and vice versa).

In short, check out the schools and check out the one with the best (most accomodating) instructor and stick with that one. If you are not an old grandmaster who sits on the governing board of the ITF or WTF, don't worry about the other organization... worry about being a good student and teacher in your own.

(By the way, I have studied both ITF and WTF styles but am only ranked in WTF. My sources for history include:
1. Tae Kwon Do (Yeon Hee Park, yeon Hwan Park, Jon Gerrard): Facts on File Books (New York): 1989 (English)
2. Tae kwon Do Textbook vol. 1 (Kim Jeong-Rok) Seolim publishing Co. (South Korea): 1986 (Korean and English)

[Artikon]

A student and a friend of mine went to watch an ITF competition that was around. When he came back and told me about it he just said "I like Taekwondo"

I agre with Thomas on this, it doesn't matter what affliation your with.

[craigwarren]

Does anyone think a reunification of korea would start a reunification of tae kwon do???

[KickChick]

Originally posted by Thomas
(Kickchick: I love your replies... they are always so well presented and researched.)

When it comes to chooosing a Taekwondo style, don't do it based on the governing body (ITF or WTF).

First, thanks Thomas :) .....but

... when choosing a TKD style it DOES come down to choosing one federation over another as both teach entirely different TKD curriculums!

[Kwan Jang]

-Before I get started in this, lrt me say I am not happy with the politics of either organization. When I say this, realize that this is coming from someone who is officially recognized as a Kwan Jang Nim by one of them. -Okay, as a 2-star general, Choi was the head of the military kwan. He was a newly graded 2nd dan in Shotokan(some say 1st, I'll give him the benefit of any doubt.)There were nine original kwans that were unified to create what is now the umbrella term of TKD. All kwan keaders were given the rank of 4th dan and Gen. Choi was given the honorary rank of 4th dan. This rank was later revolked while he was still a major player in Korea. The only kwan that truly trried to stay true to "traditional" Korean roots and as a martial art, as opposed to a sport was KJN Hwang Kee's moo duk kwan. This developed into tang soo do and later soo bahk do. It took decades of court battles and a decision from the Korean Supreme Court to make this happen. I agree w/ Thomas wholeheartedly, that what really counts is the instructor and how hard the student works. As far as cirriculum goes, the cirriculum in ANY system is broad enough for an instructor to choose what they want from it. The sport rules do vary quite a bit, however. Well, that's just my opinion, but what do I know.(not all that much, if youask some of my Sa bumnim and Bu Kwan jang nim-level students, but at least I can appear fairly wise to the 1st and 2nd dans.) -Kwan Jang Nim David Hughes.

[Thomas]

Originally posted by KickChick
First, thanks Thomas :) .....but

... when choosing a TKD style it DOES come down to choosing one federation over another as both teach entirely different TKD curriculums!

I will have to respectfully disagree. The umbrella curriculum provided for by the WTF and ITF is very general. Usually for testing, they look for the same basic things such as basic forms, sparring, and poomse (this being the biggest difference). However, the overall curriculum is nearly the same:

“As in military training, Taekwon-Do progression follows a certain parallel:

1. Fundamental Movements
2. Dallyon
3. Patterns
4. Sparring
5. Self-defence” (http://www.itf-information.com/information17.htm (May 29,2003)

WTF Training Table:
1. Attitude
2. Vcital points
3. punching,blocking,stance,kicking
4. one/three step sparring
5. sparring
6. poomse
(simplified from: Kim Jeong-Rok, Tae Kwon Do textbook vol. 1 (Seorim Publishing Co.; South Korea 1986 (Korean and English)


Now, before anyone gets up in arms and says "My school does blah blah blah...", hold on a second. Individual Taekwondo schools are given great freedom to teach as they choose as long as the core testing curriculum is covered. As long as you have all of the basic techniques relevant to your level, and the correct form (and your master's permission), you may test for the next rank. It is the individual masters who decide what ELSE gets tested and when to promote... not the ITF or WTF.

Differences in Taekwondo are not really noticable (excepting forms and some sparring rules) between ITF and WTF. The differences between the INDIVIDUAL schools are very noticable. Again, beware of the politics which will seek to turn Taekwondo practioners against each other over KOREAN political rifts.

For a personal example, my original grandmaster was an ITF follower. He left the ITF and joined the WTF because of the South/North Korea situation after the Korean War (he was a South Korean military officer). In his school we learn Taekwondo and do the ITF forms as well as the WTF forms. When I tested for WTF rank in the US, it was no problem... my skills were deemed "WTF worthy". When I trained in South Korea for 2 years in WTF schools, my skills were considered "WTF worthy". Currently our new grandmaster (of the ITA Independent Taekwondo Association) has deemed us worthy of testing for ITF or WTF rank.

We are not a school any "better" than any other TKD school. We learn Taekwondo... and the curriculum is nearly the same for ITF or WTF ranking. It doesn't make one better, it just shows that quality lies within your own school, not some umbrella (and fee collecting) organization.

[KickChick]

ok.... granted although different in their philosophies, the two have 'some' similarities (aside from sparring rules and types of hyungs, body "movement" and trajectory of certain kicks) ... but I still believe (IMHO) that one is more sport driven than the other.... which is why someone who is more competitive and result oriented might choose to practice WTF TKD.

[tekki]

Originally posted by KickChick
It is not a question as to which one is better....

Unlike most of the other martial arts, TKD is made up of many clubs, associations unions, organizations... and politics.
And karate is no different? There are several styles, and EACH can have SEVERAL organizations, especially if it's a common style. Take Shotokan for example. Right there, you have 2 major factions: JKA and Shotokai. The JKA is the larger category, but even there there is much fragmentation, such that there really isn't one true worldwide JKA. Shotokai, plays a role in relation to JKA that is somewhat like ITF's relation to WTF. It is the smaller sub-style family that goes on and on about how they ARE the real thing and how the other guys (JKA, WTF, etc) are just overcommericalized, oversportified evildoers.

[Greg_G47]

I've trained in both styles for a number of years, and in several clubs (due to moving from Nova Scotia to Alberta)

The first school I trained at was Russell's Taekwondo in Antigonish. We were essentially a WTF club but practiced the ITF patterns. After moving to Edmonton I trained in a WTF club for about 4 months but found it to be oriented mostly towards competition with little emphasis on effective self-defense and no use of hand techniques in sparring. I ended up switching to an ITF club, Phoenix Takewondo, and I've been there for a little over a year and a half.

If you're looking to compete, WTF is where you should be. There are a lot more competitions and of course the olympics. As a style of fighting, ITF taekwondo is (in my opinion) far more effective outside the ring. The only advantage I can think of for WTF fighters in terms of self defense, is that they become used to dealing with full-contact attacks which is certainly an advantage when someone gets a sucker-shot in on you.

I spent my first month in the ITF getting torn apart by green belts due to the lack of training I had recieved with my hands. Eventually I caught up, and now I consider myself to be quite competent, but in a self defense situation that didn't permit kicking (slippery surface, stairs, close range) I would have been utterly crippled if I only had access to WTF training.

Once again, in WTF's favor, it's going to get increasingly difficult to find ITF competitions above the local level as there are about 6 ITF's now, all claiming to be the "True" form of Taekwondo. Following General Choi's death the organization seems to have fragmented a great deal.

Like so many people have said already in this thread, Depending on what you're looking for, either organization may be better for you.

[Thomas]

Your post really illustrates why it is so difficult to make broad assumptions about ITF vs. WTF. The individual clubs that you point out tend to specialize or concentrate in certain areas. Many clubs (ITF or WTF) do things differently.

My bottom line advice for anyone interested in Taekwondo is to go and check out the INDIVIDUAL school for a few lessons (or weeks) before deciding to join. Martial Arts are not like Soft Drink or Candy Bar brands where everything with the same name is the same. There are good and bad WTF schools just like there are good and bad ITF schools. Some schools concentrate more on self defence and others on competition. Choosing a school jjust because of the overall system name does not automatically make it better.

My advice:
1. Decide what you're interested in
2. Find a couple of schools
3. Ask questions about the curriculum, prices, activites, etc.
4. Try to get some free lessons or permisiion to observe.
5. Decide which one fits YOU best.

[Artikon]

6 ITFs? Which ones? I know of 4, when did the other two come around?

[Greg_G47]

Six was a rough estima

[Greg_G47]

te. (sorry about that... hit tab by mistake) Anyway, I can't keep up with the ITF(s). I just guessed six in case some more had shown up. ;)

[Chazz]

I just know of 2 ITFs what are the other ones. What are the websites to them?

[Artikon]

As far as I know right now there is Master Choi's ITF, based in Canada, Chang Ung's ITF based in North Korea, Tom MacCullum based in Austria, and GM Sereff's the newest branch based in the US

[Chazz]

All of those but Master Chois is under the ITF in Austria but are the head of the itf in their country

[John G]

Originally posted by chazz982001
All of those but Master Chois is under the ITF in Austria but are the head of the itf in their country

Two separate organisations in Austria + Master Choi + USTF


INTERNATIONAL ITF ORGANISATIONS

ITF Headquarters, President Mr. Russell MacLellan (AKA: ITF/V)
Brünner Strasse 190/2/16, 1210 Vienna AUSTRIA
http://www.itf-generalchoi.com/


ITF Headquarters, President Mr. Chang Ung (AKA: ITF/NK)
Draugasse 3, 1210 Vienna AUSTRIA
http://www.internationaltaekwon-dofederation.com/


ITF Headquarters, President Master Choi Jung Hwa (AKA: ITF/C)
ITF Centre, 37 George North Street, Fourth Floor
Brampton Ontario L6X 1R5 CANADA
http://www.itf-admin.com/

USTF Headquarters, Sereff TaeKwon-Do (AKA: USTF)
6801 W. 117Th.Avenue, E-5
Broomfield, Colorado 80020
http://www.ustf-itf.com/


It’s a shame we split but thats politics for you.

...

[Chazz]

News on USTF Headquarters, Sereff TaeKwon-Do (AKA: USTF)
He has resigned as apart of the ITF and will not be know through that org any more.

ITF Headquarters, President Mr. Russell MacLellan (AKA: ITF/V) is the org that was left my the general when he died.

ITF Headquarters, President Master Choi Jung Hwa (AKA: ITF/C) Is International Tae Kwon Do Federation North America. Formed when Jung Hwa was told that the general was not going to turn over the ITF to him but to someone else

[booksie_girl]

I'm in Oh Do Kwan TKD, and when I asked my instructor, he told me we are WTF affiliated. However, we basically train ITF forms. :confused:

[Chazz]

Ive noticed that a lot of WTF school do that. They think the forms are better but want to be noticed as a WTF school due to sport reasons

[booksie_girl]

That explains it. I was wondering, but couldn't be bothered asking my instructor why. Thanks.

[Chazz]

No prob. Anytime you have a question just ask. I know someone here in TKD Land can help :-P

[Thomas]

Our style is WTF, with all rank certificates from the Kukkiwon. However, our original grandmaster was in Oh Doh Kwan and was in South Korea. He used all of the ITF forms. With the break in systems, our grandmaster was forced to be a WTF member... so he just added the Taegook forms (and the Pal-gye forms) and added the WTF sparring rules to the ITF ones.

In class we do both. We also are responsible for the ITF forms and the Taegooks (and supposedly the Pal-gyes at even higher levels... but I haven't done them yet.) at testing.

The good thing about it is instead of playing the politics game between the ITF and WTF, we just do both and try to stay away from the politics.

[Chazz]

Well thats good to hear. I think that schools that are able to form their own thoughts about TKD and stay away from the thought that one org is better than the other, then that school will be better off.

[Street Spirit]

Originally posted by KickChick
It is not a question as to which one is better....

Unlike most of the other martial arts, TKD is made up of many clubs, associations unions, organizations... and politics. Yes there are two "factions" of Tae Kwon Do which is the World Tae Kwon Do Federation, and the International Tae Kwon Do Federation. The WTF was born and based in South Korea, in Kukkiwon (Seoul), while the ITF was born from North Korea and is now based in Canada and Vienna.

Your wrong. TKD is illiegal in North Korea that is why Major General Choi Hong Hi was banished, I should know I do ITF style, and our school is fine and I am a memeber of P.U.M.A a new faction figure-headed by Major General Choi Hong Hi's son, even though Major General Choi Hong Hi didn't assign his son to take over TKD (he chose someone, who didn't even know any TKD)

[Tosh]

Originally posted by Street Spirit
Your wrong. TKD is illiegal in North Korea


That's strange!! must have been the "imaginary" North Korean Demonstration team I saw at the World Championships. :D

Just out of curiosity Street Spirit how old are you??

Also who is your instructor in the PUMA federation?

Hope you don't mind so many questions!

P.s. Welcome to MAP happy posting ;)

[Artikon]

Tosh is right street. Taekwondo is not illegal in North Korea, in fact it is my understanding that it is government run. Master Choi's is not the only ITF currently. There is one based out of North Korea . . . although Kick Chick may correct me on this if I'm wrong they also have a HQ in Vienna.

Oh and welcome to the board, drop by TKD check in Street Spirit and tell us a little bit about yourself

[Helm]

I think he means WTF is illegal in north korea?
Seems communist north is ITF and south is WTF.

[Chazz]

The ITF's main HQ is in Vienna Right now. Was moved there a while back before Gen. Choi died. That was one reason that his son was said to have been upset. He said Vienna TKD had way too much influence from North Korea, and he didnt like the politics. SO now there is a "ITF - From Somewhere,Under President Master Tran Trieu Quan www.itf-generalchoi.com" there is an "ITF - Vienna Under Mr. Chang Ung www.internationaltaekwon-dofederation.com" There is also a ITF out of canada run by PRESIDENT Master Choi Jung Hwa, the Generals son. They all say that they are the true ITF but who knows. Ever since the general died, the ITF had gone down the drain. I dont know who is the "real" one but go with whatever side you like. Im sure you will learn the exact same thing.

OH BTW there is an ITF-Korea and North Korea TKD

[Chazz]

Has anyone ever emailed all the different ITF orgs and asked them whats going on, what the other ITF orgs are, if they feel like they are the "real ITF??????

[flyingblackbelt]

personally i try to not get mixed up in all of the political bull that surrounds tae kwon do and just practice the art. My school has basically the same philosphy, we practice chung do kwan tae kwon do. We are a memeber of ITU but not really that active because most of the ITU tournaments are 5 to 7 hours away. This has been a burden at local tournaments, where our chon ji patterns are generally not accepted . However i believe that the school has benefitted from this attitude, we concentrate on the art and not the competition and the technique of the students really show this. Of course my instructor has had a hard time finding someone to promote him to his 5th dan, but even the organizations want a ludicrous amount of money.

[Chazz]

"Of course my instructor has had a hard time finding someone to promote him to his 5th dan, but even the organizations want a ludicrous amount of money."

I feel his pain. Im with the ITU and i cant find anyone around that can promote me to 2nd dan. Everyone is 7-10 hours away.

the Chang hun forms arnt done that much around the east us but thats not a bad thing in tourneys. People get to see more of them and the more they like and understand the scores go up. Even more so for the black belt forms.

[flyingblackbelt]

thats tough chazz real tough, i mean personally i want to get as high as possible and im lucky that our instructor is high enough to be able to promote me to third dan, i really hope you find someone.

[Chazz]

Thanks, so do i. I know of a few TKD instructors that could test me but none with the ITU

[wuchang79]

Modern-day Taekwondo is influenced by many other Martial Arts. The most important of these arts is Japanese Karate. This is because Japan dominated Korea during 1910 until the end of World War II. During WWII, lots of Korean soldiers were trained in Japan. During this occupation of Korea, the Japanese tried to erase all traces of the Korean culture, including the martial arts. The influence that Japan has given to Taekwondo are the quick, lineair movements, that characterize the various Japanese systems.

After World War II, when Korea became independant, several kwans arose. These kwans were:
- Chung Do Kwan
- Moo Duk Kwan
- Yun Moo Kwan
- Chang Moo Kwan
- Oh Do Kwan
- Ji Do Kwan
- Chi Do Kwan
- Song Moo Kwan

The Kwans united in 1955 as Tae Soo Do. In the beginning of 1957, the name Taekwondo was adopted by several Korean martial arts masters, for its similarity to the name Tae Kyon.

General Choi Hong-hi required the army to train Taekwondo, so the very first Taekwondo students were Korean soldiers. The police and air force had to learn Taekwondo as well. At that time, Taekwondo was merely a Korean version of Shotokan Karate. In 1961 the Korean Taekwondo Union arose from the Soo Bakh Do Association and the Tae Soo Do Association. In 1962 the Korean Amateur Sports Association acknowledged the Korean Taekwondo Union and in 1965 the name was changed to Korean Taekwondo Association (K.T.A.). General Choi was president of the K.T.A. at that time and was asked to start the I.T.F. as the international branch of the K.T.A. The southern government was overthrown in 1961. General Choi Hong-hi left for America and established I.T.F. (International Taekwondo Federation) Taekwondo, as a separate entity, two years later.

Demonstrations were given all over the world. It took a while before real progress was made, but eventually, in 1973, the World Taekwondo Federation (W.T.F.) was founded. In 1980, W.T.F. Taekwondo was recognized by the International Olympic Commitee (I.O.C.) and became a demonstration sport at the Olympics in 1988. In the year 2000 taekwondo made its debute as an official olympic sport. There were several attempts to unify I.T.F. and W.T.F. Taekwondo, but these attempts failed.

Only difference is The forms and the uniforms. . teaching methods, sparring, and things like that vary from school and instructor. AIMAA incorporates both ITF and WTF (how I know).

[Taeho]

My schools is a member of The International Taekwondo Alliance (yet another ITA). It was founded in 1983 and teaches the "Chang Hun" style which was developed by Gen Choi. We train using 70% kicking techniques and 30% hand techs. We do light to no contact sparring and train heavily in sparring.

I personally like using more leg techniques, because it gives me a "feel" of what TKD is all about. We also train in ground fighting and ARC techniques. But, if I was interested in mostly hand fighting techniques, I would have taken up karate, boxing or kickboxing. It's up to you. I feel that each person needs to decide what fits their individual needs.

IMHO, the different organizations each have something to offer their students. You just need to find the one that's right for you.

TKDshane Ÿ

[Chazz]

I was once with the ITA when it was called the USTA. I started under, who is now over most the schools in the south, Master Rick Hall. I got my 1st dan under him.

[Taeho]

Do you mean the International TKD Alliance or the International TKD Association?

TKDshane Ÿ

[Chazz]

International TKD Alliance

I was in Rick Halls TKD Plus in Chattanooga Tennessee

[Chazz]

I have just sent an email to the 3 main Orgs that say that they are the real ITF. I asked a few question so i hope i get an answer back. I just want to know how they feel about the other 2 orgs.

[SkyCreeper]

Patterns do not make the ITF style traditonal, but it does make them "more" traditional then what the WTF is doing. In my humble opinion anyway :)

her is my idea...

What Gen Choi did from what i have read is blend an older Korean MA called Taek Kyon (maybe some other korean types as well) with some form of Japanese Karate to create what is now called TaeKwon-Do so i would assume that anything that is being called TaeKwon-Do has its origins in Gen. Choi's work. He wrote the first "manual" on the new art with the first documented patterns, some of witch, he created.

The manual, to me, started a tradition. It formalized a system that had been developed over many years.

My experience is that the ITF sticks closer to what was layed out in the manual then the WTF because the WTF is more interested in olympic sport criteria then teaching any of the "Do" concepts in TKD. Nevermind how techniques are being taught.

On a side note. I recently witnessed a 4th Dan Black belt WTF form. I cant remember the name but what struck me while watching it, is that was basicly a mix of the 7th gup and 6th gup ITF forms (Do-San and Won-Hyo). I thought that forms got harder as you went through the ranks, not easier. any thoughts on this?

[SkyCreeper]

the last post was for a diff thread, but a comment as to weather im lost in space on the concept of Traditional TKD would be appreciated.

[Helm]

I was lost somewhere back on page 2.

I dont think there is a right answer or a solution to "Traditional TKD", as its the oppinion of the person.

Either way, i dont worry about the leaves on the branches, just the roots in the tree.

[Thomas]

Originally posted by SkyCreeper
Patterns do not make the ITF style traditonal, but it does make them "more" traditional then what the WTF is doing. In my humble opinion anyway :)

her is my idea...

What Gen Choi did from what i have read is blend an older Korean MA called Taek Kyon (maybe some other korean types as well) with some form of Japanese Karate to create what is now called TaeKwon-Do so i would assume that anything that is being called TaeKwon-Do has its origins in Gen. Choi's work. He wrote the first "manual" on the new art with the first documented patterns, some of witch, he created.

The manual, to me, started a tradition. It formalized a system that had been developed over many years.

My experience is that the ITF sticks closer to what was layed out in the manual then the WTF because the WTF is more interested in olympic sport criteria then teaching any of the "Do" concepts in TKD. Nevermind how techniques are being taught.

On a side note. I recently witnessed a 4th Dan Black belt WTF form. I cant remember the name but what struck me while watching it, is that was basicly a mix of the 7th gup and 6th gup ITF forms (Do-San and Won-Hyo). I thought that forms got harder as you went through the ranks, not easier. any thoughts on this?

I realize that is your opinion, but I would recommend trying to avoid over-generalizing. I have trained in both ITF and WTF TAekwondo and have learn the Tae-gook forms, the ITF forms, and most of the Pal-gye forms... and guess what? They are all relatively similar and really do not vary much in age. Take a look at the history of TKD and you will find that it came together about the same time and was put together by a bunch of people including General Choi, who later left for political reasons. The Taekwondo of both styles is pretty similar, with difference in forms and COMPETITION rules.

Neither FEDERATION is more "traditional" than the other... although you may find individual schools who may stress different aspects. My advice is to enjoy it all, find a good school that fits you and avoid the petty political crap.

A sad thing is that both side (WTF and ITF) love to propagandize and indoctrinate their students to hate the other system (c.f. ITF is followed in North Korea and WTF is followed in South Korea).

[Bulldog]

I learned Tae Kwon Do in a small garage with no heat in the winter and no air conditioning in the summer...
I also learned a long time ago that I don't care about styles, I care about people. Unity in diversity, through love of all.

There are SO many federations/associations/groups/clans/clubs/styles/etc.

Find what is right for you. And embrace understanding.

[SkyCreeper]

Well. I spent a few hours last night going through all the posts and would say it was a bit of an education. I train at a school that has been mostly independant. My instructor trained in the ATA and left 12 years ago because of the politics and im starting to understand why. I enjoy my TKD training, and the more different schools and org's im exposed to, the more im gratefull for the independance.

In my town, there are 2 WTF schools and my school that is independant. TKD is getting a really bad rap here because of the WTF schools. I find this very annoying, but what can i do? We get parents bringing their kids into my school from the other schools with all kinds of horror stories about what the instructor did to them. Im surprised they are still training after experiences like that.

I guess i should just shutup, train hard, and observe the tenents.

Im glad i found this forum before i got too far into researching this politial crap.

[Thomas]

I think this entire thread really illustrates the harmful effects that "over-politicizing" the dojang can do. For us practioners at the ground level, I think we need to train hard and keep an open mind.... because someday we will be the leaders of TKD. If we perpetuate the snubbing of schools based on name, the bickering over "true" TKD, and closing our minds to fellow practioners because they don't belong to the "right" collection of letters (organization), we will lose much of the experience and knowledge that is out there right now to share and study.

[Twimyo Jirugi]

Here's a quote from my student handbook regarding TKD imitators (non orthodox/ITF TKD):

"Today, the enormous popularity of Taekwon-Do has created many imitators and while at times, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, in the case of Taekwon-Do, this is definately not true. To imitate without full knowledge of the original is dangerous. It is somewhat akin to allowing a child to play with a toy gun, then giving him a real gun and expecting the child to understand the difference, wthout giving him the knowledge of the function of a real gun.
In most cases of imitation, the imitator simply mimics the original without any change. Usually, this does not cause any harm provided the one who imitates does not change the original (in this case Taekwon-Do) by unproven additional techniques, interpretations, philosophy, terminology or systems and methods. It is when unauthrised changes to the original act of Taekwon-Do take place that these imitators create a highly dangerous and eroding influence upon the concept of Taekwon-Do.
Dangerous, because it givs to the students of the imitators a sense of mastery of techniques which is completely unfounded in knowledge of the true martial art of Taekwon-Do.
Dangerous, because a student may then become a teacher and all unkowingly, impart his false techniques to others, thus compounding the error of false knowledge. This will lead to an erosion of confidence by serious students in Taekwon-Do as a proven martial art.
Confusion has recently arisen by se of the terminology "TAEKWON-DO, THE KOREAN ART OF SELF DEFENSE". I emphasis the word Korean.
Today, in the republic of South Korea, it is becoming the practise to indiscriminately applie the word Taekwon-Do to a b*****dised imitation of the real Korean martial art.
General Choi Hong Hi created, developed and introduced the art of Taekwon-Do to what is now the Republic of South Korea. It is true that General Choi was born in Korea and at the time of developing and introducing taekwon-Do he resided there. It is also true that the basis of Taekwon-Do goes back to the ancient past of Korea, but to call Taekwon-Do purely Korean is somewhat like one country claimin to have introduced fire.
The true Taekwon-Do of General Choi knows no boundaries or countries; it is a universal art of self defense. It is also an art for which General Choi has devoted his life not only to retain the purity of the original Taekwon-Do, but to constantly search for ways of improving the original techniques. Only after exhaustive research and proof of improvement and effectiveness is to the original approved and incorporated within the overall art of Taekwon-Do.
Authentic, original Taekwon-Do, as taught by the founder, is promoted worldwide by the International Taekwon-Do Federation (ITF), the world wide governing body established in 1966 for this purpose. The Republic of Ireland Taekwon-Do Association (RITA) was established in 1972 as the national governing body for ITF in Ireland, and the instructors of the RITA re proud to teach and promote the authentic Taekwon-Do nationwide, despite the presence of many imitators.
His lifetime of research and devotion is proof of General Choi's tenacity of dedication to keeping the original Taekwon-Do free from unproved imitations, and with the co-operation of all true Taekwon-Do students, no matter what grade, weed out those who seek to destroy the authentic art"
©2001 RITA - ITF

And I believe the WTF is listed as one of those imitators, and a successful one at that. You see Thomas, this "true" Taekwon-Do is not a bunch of nonsense, it's 100% true. We must keep the authentic Taekwon-Do alive and not let it suffer at the hands of unproven, inferior imitators.

[Thomas]

Here's a quote from my student handbook regarding TKD imitators (non orthodox/ITF TKD):


Just because it's written in a student handbook doesn't make it necessarily true. I would recommend doing a little research and come up with your own answers instead of following naroow-minded lines of propaganda. After you have experienced other styles of TKD or read some of the historical books or articles out there, you will be free to re-evaluate the claims in your handbook. (Does your handbook mention the Shotokan/Japanese influence on Choi's ideas?)

And I believe the WTF is listed as one of those imitators, and a successful one at that. You see Thomas, this "true" Taekwon-Do is not a bunch of nonsense, it's 100% true. We must keep the authentic Taekwon-Do alive and not let it suffer at the hands of unproven, inferior imitators.

Since I know you are new to this forum (and relatively new to TKD) I will not take any offence to any of the possible insults here. Keep in mind that this forum is set up to share ideas and experience. If you choose to ignore people who have lots of experience just because they train in an "unproven, inferior style" then I feel bad for you for your loss. There are lots of good TKD instructors out there who may not be members of the Irish ITf or even of the ITF as a whole... and you may be able to learn from them... if you open your mind up a bit.

By the way, did you read the entire thread?

[Artikon]

Here's two demonstrations for Twimyo jirugi. Tell me what the difference is, and what is true to both of them.
Long watch btw, and actually quite enjoyable both of them. :)

Demo 1 part 1 (http://www.freefree.co.kr/taekwon/north_exhibition_1.wmv)
Demo 1 part 2 (http://www.freefree.co.kr/taekwon/north_exhibition_2.wmv)

Demo 2 part 1 (http://www.freefree.co.kr/taekwon/south_exhibition_1.wmv)
Demo 2 part 2 (http://www.freefree.co.kr/taekwon/south_exhibition_2.wmv)

[Thomas]

"General Choi Hong Hi was born on November 9th, 1918, in the Hwa Dae Myong Chun District of Korea.
At the age of twelve he started to study Taek Kyon, an ancient Korean method of fighting with the feet. Later, when he was studying in Japan, he met a Karate teacher who helped him earn his first degree Black Belt in less than two years. He then intensified his training, striving to earn his second degree. Around the same time, he started teaching.
Conscripted into the Japanese army during World War II, he was posted to Pyongyang where he was imprisoned. Wanting to maintain his good physical and mental health during his imprisonment, he practiced karate, alone at first, then by teaching it to the staff of the prison and the other prisoners.
Becoming an officer in the new Korean Army after the end of the war, he continued to teach his martial art to his soldiers as well as to American soldiers serving in Korea.
His beliefs and his vision of a different approach to teaching martial arts led General Choi to combine elements of Taek Kyon and Karate techniques to develop a modern martial art. He called it Tae Kwon Do, which means "the way of the feet and the hands", and this name was officially adopted on April 11th, 1955" (emphasis added by Thomas)

(http://www.tkd-itf.org/Biography.htm)

There's some facts straight from the ITF homepage... a pretty good place to start your research.

"On April 11th, 1955, the name Taekwon-Do was officially adopted for the martial art General Choi Hong Hi had developed using elements of the ancient Korean martial art of Taek Kyon and of Shotokan karate, a martial art he had learned while studying in Japan.
The philosophical values and the goals of Taekwon-Do are firmly rooted in the traditional moral culture of the Orient. On the technical side, defensive and offensive tactics are based on principles of physics, particularly Newton's Law, which explains how to generate maximum force by increasing speed and mass during the execution of a movement.
Wanting to share the results of his philosophical reflections and his technical experiments, General Choi planned and wrote a unique reference work, the Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do. In its fifteen volumes, he explained in detail the rules and practices of this art.
Always striving for excellence, General Choi presented Taekwon-Do as in a state of continuous evolution, open to changes that would improve its effectiveness. He wrote that anyone who believes he has fully discharged his duty will soon perish. Likewise, any undertaking that is perceived to have reached its objectives is likely to lose momentum, stagnate, and die.
Since the beginning, Taekwon-Do has never stopped evolving, driven by the strong will and a lot of hard work by its Founder. The leaders of the ITF today also recognize the need to evolve and they are equally passionate about the future of the organization. " (emphasis added by Thomas)
(http://www.tkd-itf.org/history.htm)

I think the underlined section shows that even Gen. Choi himself expected Taekwon-do to evolve and change... and not be deluded into thinking that all that had been done before is the only allowable "pure" Taekwon-Do.

[Twimyo Jirugi]

Yes, but without a single, unified, agreed upon form/style of Taekwon-Do, then it is just chaos. That is one of the goals of the ITF. To unite everyone and strive to perfect Taekwon-Do together, not separately, because that way, we can only fail.

[Smokemare]

Hmmm, we've got two basic questions here, which is best WTF or ITF. My authoritive answer is neither! Both have their pro's and con's. Most of which can be forgotten anyway. You can forget forms, yes the forms are different, but if you are WTF and you want to learn ITF forms there's nothing to stop you, there are instructions and videos on the net which can enable you learn a form from home if you want to. The way techniques are performed might differ slightly, but two ITF or WTF practitioners will differ slightly. I've always been ITF, but If I moved to an area where only WTF was available I would probably join that club, or start my own ITF club - it doesn't really matter...

As to whether an individual should start WTF or ITF, I agree with Thomas, look at both schools and go with the best instructor. If you still can't decide - put it down to this:-

If you want to wear body armour, kick full power, and not use many hand techniques when sparring go WTF. If you want semi-contact sparring with gloves and foot-gloves which involves quite alot of hand-techniques go ITF.

The self-defence and other aspects of the arts are really more down to the instructor and the practitioner.

Interestingly a guy from our clubs went WTF when he went to Uni, as thre wasn't ITF near. As far as I gather, despite being a good sparrer before going WTF, the first few times he sparred WTF he got his ass handed to him. Then in time he became good at WTF and started doing really well, then he finished uni and re-joined ITF, and straight away started to get his ass handed to each time he sparred.

The moral of the story, WTF style sparrers will do better at WTF rule sparring and ITF sparrers will win when ITF rules are in place. As to who would win in a street fight, street fighting is not sparring, and the victor would be down to whoever was the better fighter, which is independant of what style or even art somebody happens to train in.

[Thomas]

Excellent post, Smokemare! I especially agree with this part:
The self-defence and other aspects of the arts are really more down to the instructor and the practitioner.

[Twimyo Jirugi]

What?!?!? Taekwon-Do was developed in the beginning for one purpose: to be the strongest and most effective form of self defense. That's what TKD is, an art of self defense. It's not a sport like soccer or basketball. It's an art.

[KickChick]

Both "sport" and "non-sport" TKD (such as the style my school teaches Chung do Kwan) have their place in martial arts.

The fact that the WTF has brought TKD into the Olympics as a sport has had an advantage that the visibility of TKD is much greater.... TKD being second only to Judo in becoming a MA sport.

Of course there is the disadvantage is this has placed an enormous bridge between WTF and ITF TKD practitioners and it becomes bigger when atitudes such as yours arise.

[Smokemare]

Thanks Thomas, you really do pat my back far more than is called for I'm sure...

You're right in what you say Twimyo:-


What?!?!? Taekwon-Do was developed in the beginning for one purpose: to be the strongest and most effective form of self defense. That's what TKD is, an art of self defense. It's not a sport like soccer or basketball. It's an art.

However we can't all very well practice self-defence with 100% realism in the do-jang. We all get as close as we can, but there's never really the pressure of your life actually being in danger. Sparring is as much a part of Tae Kwon Do as any of the other forms of self defence drills, because it gives you that little bit of pressure that you don't get from practising choreographed drills, it forces you to think on the fly a bit more.

WTF is maybe weighted a little more towards being a sport than ITF sparring, but a WTF Tae Kwon Do definately has the capacity to be a form of self defence. I won't go into whether it's more or less than ITF style - because you really can't say - it's down to the instructor and the practitioner.

[Din]

basiclly they are 2 different styles of tkd. which one is better i can't say cause i never tried ITF before. but i would probably say it depends on the person. why check out both and see which one you prefer.

[TKDIreland]

HI All! I am a new entrant to the world of MA and am quickly getting enamoured with it. I have started with WTF TKD. My question is: which one is better - WTF or ITF TKD? or is it possible to compare them like this? Thanks in advance.


well yeah there are differneces but personally for me I prefere ITF its the for most original created by General Choi in the beginning.

[ipscshooter]

Here's two demonstrations for Twimyo jirugi. Tell me what the difference is, and what is true to both of them.
Long watch btw, and actually quite enjoyable both of them. :)

Demo 1 part 1 (http://www.freefree.co.kr/taekwon/north_exhibition_1.wmv)
Demo 1 part 2 (http://www.freefree.co.kr/taekwon/north_exhibition_2.wmv)

Demo 2 part 1 (http://www.freefree.co.kr/taekwon/south_exhibition_1.wmv)
Demo 2 part 2 (http://www.freefree.co.kr/taekwon/south_exhibition_2.wmv)
Artikon, thanks for posting those. The first pair of videos appear to be of an ITF group, as they are wearing the standard ITF uniform and I recognized the Choong Moo kata. In the second set they appear to be wearing WTF uniforms and I didn't recognize any of the katas. Are they a WTF group?

[KickChick]

I remember seeing the first videos as part of the North Korean Taekwon-Do delegation visiting South Korea and doing a demonstration.

Is the second video set is the South Korea Taekwondo Association .... or is it obvious?? :D

Thanks for posting those!
More here also.... http://www.taekwondo-web.com./eng/Index.htm

[Artikon]

Yes the first group is ITF from North Korea doing a demonstration in South Korea for the government, dignartaries, and whoever was interested.The second group is WTF, don't think they are the Tiger Team, which is unfortunate since they're demos are simply amazing, not to say there's wasn't good either though.

I had to "steal" both of these demos I like them so much

[Kwondo]

HI All! I am a new entrant to the world of MA and am quickly getting enamoured with it. I have started with WTF TKD. My question is: which one is better - WTF or ITF TKD? or is it possible to compare them like this? Thanks in advance.

Most people from each organisation want to say that theirs is better. However I think that you can't compare them. "Taekwondo is Taekwondo." Leave the differences alone and just go practise "Taekwondo." And go with your own opinion, not the ones of otheres 'cause you can only decide which you want. (there's an interesting thread on WTF and ITF as well. I think it's called question for TKD practitioners or something like that)

[Thomas]

This thread should be required reading for the people who like to blindly promote one chain of TKD schools over the others...

TKD really is taught differently based on where it is being taught and by whom it is being taught. The simply three letter name (ITF, WTF, ATA, etc.) doesn't mean as much as the actual practice going on...

[Artikon]

100% agree with you on that Thomas. Doesn't matter the orginzation, what matters is the actual instruction. All the different "factions" have their good qualities and bad, meaning good schools and bad schools.

TKD is TKD, the only thing that seperates these groups is politics.

[Thomas]

It's funny, but the pathetic over-generalizations (and the spouting of "pure" this and that) always rile me to no end. What's even more funny is that many of the "brain washed" hangers-on of one side or the other often has never even worked with a member of the "enemy" federation. How horrible it is when the political inclinations of two separated countries not only brainwash their citizens against the other, but even include it in their martial arts exports!

Lately, in our summer class, I have had the pleasure of running class with a few of my regular students (WTF TKD and ICHF Hapkido) but also with an assistant instructor from the ATA and a brown belt from an ITF school. It's fun because we do some things differently but most things are pretty similar. In sparring we rotate rules and honestly, no one really has had an exceptional advantage from the rules (even when opened completely up).

My advice to everyone is to get other people in to train with you, whether they are from different federations, or styles altogether!

[Taliar]

I think its good that there is a diversity to TKD. Diversity and evolution are what helps things survive and by being open to change it allows you to improve yourself.
I train at an ITF club but its TKD that I study , but I would also enjoy trying WTF. The Korean Tigers are awesome and the WTF fight's look good too.
In order to improve you should be willing to look at techniques on there own merits removed from where it came from. If I 'steal' a technique from WTF or even another art and it works that doesn't make my TKD any weaker it makes it stronger.

[Derrick]

Does anyone else get tired of reading about this "my style is better than yours" topic?heehee

I think a person needs to find what works for them, and then further adapt it within that style to it becomes a personal thing. No two people should do things exactly the same. Regardless of style or organization, each person is going to be stronger at some things and weaker at others.

As a personal example, I take WTF. I have only been doing it for about 10 months. Starting at 40 years old, I was (and still am compared to most in it) stiff and unflexable. You would think in WTF that my kicks would have to be perfect! In fact they are far from it. I'll work on them to the day I die, but I'll never have the skill as someone starting out young. To compensate for this, when I spar I don't try to avoid the other persons shots. Instead I block them and throw my own. I use more hand blows than most WTF (although I don't get sparring points for them), and tend to like to get on the inside and "fight" more than fancy spar.

All this drives my instructor crazy of course, but he is used to it now and tries to help me fight my way. So the moral of the story is take what you like, personalize it, and regardless of what federation or affiliation you are it will become your own style. I'm not looking to be a champion or anything, I take it for personal reasons.

[satyr]

There is a VERY BIG difference between WTF and ITF. WTF is martial sport, while ITF is martial art, they differ in katas (forms) and kicks also. Not to mention a little or no use of hands at all at WTF. I've seen ITF competition and there is a full contact (kick to groin is a negative score), so is WTF but with much more protection. Dolio (sp?) kick is very different, in ITF you turn your hip, but in WTF you just turn your leg, etc. In fact what WTF did tou ITF is a shame. I heard recently some Korean grandmaster was arrested for switching from ITF to WTF for some huge money (or something like this, ill have to check if you want to). The newspaper read: "Shame for Taekwondo".
WTF is all about money and bringing it to the top over ITF. ITF remains a real traditional martial art and is usefull for street fight. WTF is ....not.
This is true, not a speculation, so who doesnt believe, i don't care
peace

[Artikon]

Great, another WTF basher with eyes closed. One point of referance for you.

Dolio (sp?) kick is very different, in ITF you turn your hip, but in WTF you just turn your leg, etc.

http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/image/tkskill/kibon/184_1.jpghttp://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/image/tkskill/kibon/184_2.jpghttp://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/image/tkskill/kibon/184_3.jpghttp://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/image/tkskill/kibon/184_4.jpg

Images borrowed from the kukkiwon website, who deal with the martial art aspect of the wtf. http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/tkskill/kibon_skill_cha_4.asp?div=3

Looke like the hip is turning to me.

I would suggest not to overgeneralize a particular orginazation. Both have good sides and bad sides. The politics have good sides and bad sides. However when it all comes down to it. TKD is TKD.

PS Welcome to the board

[Guy Mendiola]

Yeah, The right way to throw a proper roundhouse but in TKD olympic sparring...you don't really need to have good technique but it's to throw the kick of faster.

[Thomas]

There is a VERY BIG difference between WTF and ITF. WTF is martial sport, while ITF is martial art, they differ in katas (forms) and kicks also. Not to mention a little or no use of hands at all at WTF. I've seen ITF competition and there is a full contact (kick to groin is a negative score), so is WTF but with much more protection. Dolio (sp?) kick is very different, in ITF you turn your hip, but in WTF you just turn your leg, etc. In fact what WTF did tou ITF is a shame. I heard recently some Korean grandmaster was arrested for switching from ITF to WTF for some huge money (or something like this, ill have to check if you want to). The newspaper read: "Shame for Taekwondo".
WTF is all about money and bringing it to the top over ITF. ITF remains a real traditional martial art and is usefull for street fight. WTF is ....not.
This is true, not a speculation, so who doesnt believe, i don't care
peace

Did you actually read this whole thread before you responded? If you did, you would see that many of the points you bring up have been discussed here already. (Here's the first page: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2677&page=1&pp=15)

Take a look at these threads as well:
Styles
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11651
TKD self defence stuff (from WTF guy and others)
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10787
WTF sparring punches
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12061

[kabba kick]

ive seen some itf tourneys fight with the same rules as kickboxing kicks/knees to the thighs,chest stomach and head punches to the head were allowed too but im not sure how they scored that

[itfengland.com]

aha,

Interesting forum. I have been a practitioner of both. I actually began with ITF then tried also WTF. I found that WTF was very much reliant upon speed and having very good and flexible legs. If we compare the two fighting styles I owuld probably opt for ITF due to the fact that there is alot more exciting action with the use of hands alot more too and tactical fights often occur. Whereas WTF i find that altho fantastic to watch and appreciate, it is very much the same ie bounce bounce and fast attack wioth the legs which r predominantely turning kicks. I would recommend that you tried both to make a decision.

As one person has already said ITF offer the Martial Art side also but there is also a massive market for the competitive side and the standard of this willl vary from country to country.

check out a few of these sites

www.itfengland.com

www.itfeurope.org

www.tomaz-barada.com (a legend in ITF TKD & WAKO kickbox)

[ReodDai]

My master is WTF ref, but he stopped doing that after he noticed that all fights were very similar. He teaches us to never wait for them to make a mistake, and to force them to make a mistake. It is hard to get used to, but it is effective.

I really have no idea what this post said, other than not all WTF focus on sport.

[Strafio]

Ok, I think I've found a difference.

It IS based purely on the experience with one TAGB dojang and one WTF one, but let's see.


The TAGB taught me to balance my weight on the back of the leg, allowing for quick kicks with the front leg. In the WTF class, a guy told me that the front leg is better, because there are more kicks you can do with the back leg so it's less predictable.

Now this is slightly generalising because it still assumes that WTF organisations are kicking based, but it seems to make sense to me...
But all's good, because both stances have their advantages, so if I were to master both...

[utkdjoe]

Well it also depends on the school, so its hard to say whats best for you....

Imo neither is better than the other, my tkd teacher says they are both tkd, the kicks are almost identical, its just the politics.


Think bout it, politics is screwing up the world of TKD
Shoot politics screws up everything now days

[carlos]

Shoot politics

Good idea!

:woo: :bang:

[Lithanwif]

Does anyone think a reunification of korea would start a reunification of tae kwon do???

Well it worked for China in Gung Fu, and of course Japan in styles of Karate.

Oh no it didn't did it.

Guess we'll all be fighting over which is the 'best' style for a long long time. Which, if I may add my 2 cents, Dont think it matters. As a former Karate-ka, Thai Boxer, lau Gar, Wing Chun kail etc man and now a Tae Kwon Do'er think.
It just doesnt matter as long as you enjoy it. And if you can enjoy it, smile about it and not be too serious about the politics ( I don't mind banter, just leave your ego at the door ) everyone is welcome to train with me. I might rib you. I might rib me ( my style uses that awful sine wave, I know it's pointless and BS physics, but hey it's part of the form )

No politics, no religion, all welcome, none turned away. No best style no best fighter, just one big Tae Kwon melting pot.

I have a dream......

[popop]

And if you can enjoy it, smile about it

I can't agree more with this.
No matter what style/art/sport you practice, if you smile about it then you're following the way you've chosen and you don't have to matter more.

I'm not sure worries about differnece between WTF & ITF can help you to grow in your art, so ...

[Andy Cap]

Does anyone think a reunification of korea would start a reunification of tae kwon do???


No, and this thread is why. Ego and politics have killed the possibility of unification. The guys at teh tops of these organizations are in charge and want it that way. If they have to share that role they would be unhappy.
Why do you think there is more than one Tae Kwon Do style? Ego, money, power, politics. Have you ever trained in a school where one of the senior black belts left the instructor and organization and started their own? Why did they do it? Did they have something new?

I would love to see the unification, but if it did ever happen - who's view would they take? ITF, WTF, ..... Would it be sport, art?

[Thomas]

Andy Cap: Nice post and I agree with you... and unfortunately seen a lot of this stuff in the martial arts everywhere and especially in Korea.

[Lithanwif]

Back in my old Wado Ryu karate days, we shared a hall with a Shotokan class. After months of or classes growling at one another, myself and the Shotokan instructor thought that it would be a good idea to perhaps have a free seminar to show the differences, or lack thereof between the styles, perhaps have a little friendly forms/sparring tournament....

...what a nightmare. Neither of the classes wanted to lose, so sparring went from light through schoolyard and right up to almost full contact before it was broken up. We seperated them, both lectured our respective students on proper ettiquet, dismissed them. Then promptly went to a bar and had a few beers. The instructor John was a really nice cool guy who was mainly interested in teaching his art, but no politics. And of course I was open to the same philosophy, being a MA whore.

'ooh ooh show me how you apply that.....kewl!'

Unfortuantely ego's get in the way, and once one person whispers 'our style is better than yours', It all escalates real quick. Ive seen grown men act like schoolkids because of politics in MA.

It's time to grow up, realise that no style is best, be open to the differences.

Besides if you act open and honest maybe they'll teach you their 'secrets' and you can rip them off.

[Andy Cap]

Lithanwif -

Back in 1994 I think it was, my instroctor had joined his association with the International Tang Soo Do Federation. The Grandmaster of that federation, C.S. Kim, decided that we would have a world tournament and in teh tournament we would have team competition. At one point in this tournament the teams got so heated that we almost had a riot - seriously!! The people running the tournament were also involved in teh tournament, and at one point of the coordinators came over in a dress suit when the action was stopped in one of the matches and kicked one of the competitiors with his shoe to show that he was hit with a side kick fromt eh coordinator's brother. I thought there was going to be a rumble - I could feel teh tension in the air. Fortunately that did not happen. Point is - there is too much pride and ego in the martial arts. IMHO.

[d33pthought]

I'm a little confused at reading this, posted back on page 2 by kwan jang:

"The only kwan that truly trried to stay true to "traditional" Korean roots and as a martial art, as opposed to a sport was KJN Hwang Kee's moo duk kwan. This developed into tang soo do and later soo bahk do."

I study Taekwondo, and I get graded through the WTF, yet on the back of my dobok it says Moo Duk Kwan. So I'm practicing the rebellious-sibling art of regular WTF TKD? The one that was too stubborn to give in to the unify-or-die pressure? Someone mind explaining, please?

[Artikon]

The Moo Duk Kwan experienced some "issues" during the time period that Hwang Kee was argueing with the rest of the Kwan Jang's about the development of TKD. He had his own ideas, however some of his senior students didn't share the same idea. The Moo Duk Kwan split essentially creating two different factions. The one Hwang Kee headed, turned into The Korean Soo Bahk Do Association , and later Tang Soo Do, the other faction fell into the Umbrella of Taekwondo.

As far as I know, both factions retained the Moo Duk Kwan name, which is probably the reason why you have Moo Duk Kwan on the back of your Dobak.

[d33pthought]

Oh...dang. So it's really alot blander than I'd hoped :rolleyes: Oh well :)

[Andy Cap]

The Moo Duk Kwan experienced some "issues" during the time period that Hwang Kee was argueing with the rest of the Kwan Jang's about the development of TKD. He had his own ideas, however some of his senior students didn't share the same idea. The Moo Duk Kwan split essentially creating two different factions. The one Hwang Kee headed, turned into The Korean Soo Bahk Do Association , and later Tang Soo Do, the other faction fell into the Umbrella of Taekwondo.

As far as I know, both factions retained the Moo Duk Kwan name, which is probably the reason why you have Moo Duk Kwan on the back of your Dobak.


Correct. Hwang Kee did not want the government involvement in Moo Duk Kwan. Tae Kwon Do was a government sanctioned sport. Hwang Kee also dislike dhte idea of sport and martial arts - he said they did not mix.

There is a logn story as to wear the name Soo Bak Do came from and then where Tang Soo Do came from. They are one in the same but run by different people.

So, if your uniform says Moo Duk Kwan on the back I would assume you use the Pyung Ahn forms systems that was adopted and developed by Hwang Kee, and you learn about the Tenets that he developed as well as the other systems he put in place.

I started as a Tang Soo Do stylist and did that for years, but I did do TKD Moo Duk Kwan for a few years too and the forms adn the system were the same up to around 1990, adn then the olympic craze started...

Anyways, I hope that clarifies a bit.

[Artikon]

Correct. Hwang Kee did not want the government involvement in Moo Duk Kwan. Tae Kwon Do was a government sanctioned sport. Hwang Kee also dislike dhte idea of sport and martial arts - he said they did not mix.

I think it's amusing, however, that Hwang Kee approached the Korean Amatuer sports council to register before TKD did, intially.

I always interperted this as Hwang Kee being a bit of a hypocrit until I looked into it a bit more. He essentially had to register with the Korean Government to run an orginization and the sport council was the only applicable wing he could register under. His application was rejected I think due to a smear campaign by the KTA . . . . POLITICS THBBBPPPPP!!!!! :woo: :bang:

[d33pthought]

The gup ranks use palgue forms at our school. I don't know what the dan ranks do, since at the last black belt grading I attended, I couldn't make out what the kjn was saying because of his accent. As for the tenets, we had a nice set of them:
Be loyal to your country,
Be obediant to your parents,
Be lovable to your spouse,
Be honorable to your friends;
Never retreat in battle.

Now we use the Official WTF TKD tenets ^tm that I haven't fully memorized yet. Personally, I liked the old ones better.

[Artikon]

Courtesy, Integrety, Perserverance, Self-control, Indomitable spirit . . . I've actually been told, although have nothing to back this, that these tenets come from the Moo Duk Kwan. Anyone else have any evidence of this or heard of this before?

[Andy Cap]

The gup ranks use palgue forms at our school. I don't know what the dan ranks do, since at the last black belt grading I attended, I couldn't make out what the kjn was saying because of his accent. As for the tenets, we had a nice set of them:
Be loyal to your country,
Be obediant to your parents,
Be lovable to your spouse,
Be honorable to your friends;
Never retreat in battle.

Now we use the Official WTF TKD tenets ^tm that I haven't fully memorized yet. Personally, I liked the old ones better.

That is the code of the Hwarang Dan. Hwang Kee adopted that for Moo Duk Kwan, and it is published in his books. I have never been to a Moo Duk Kwan school that did not know those tenets by heart. We pronounce them in Korean in my current Dojang. Althoug loyalty to spouse is not a one of the traditional tenets and "Never take life without just cause" or "Respect all life" is missing from your list.

Artikon - Actually Hwang Kee approached the Korean governemnt to have Tang Soo Do inducted as the Korean National Art. Originally they sent him to the sports council and he had attempted to go that route, but decided along the way it was not what Tang Soo Do was. In the end Tang Soo Do became the Korean national Art. Tae Kwon Do is the National Sport of Korea.

[d33pthought]

Well that certainly explains why my school seems to be different from the 'normal' WTF school. Well, whatever. Thanks for your replies, guys :)

[sean]

Courtesy, Integrety, Perserverance, Self-control, Indomitable spirit . . . I've actually been told, although have nothing to back this, that these tenets come from the Moo Duk Kwan. Anyone else have any evidence of this or heard of this before?

yep spot on, this is the official ITF TKD '5 tenets', writtin in the student study booklet aswell.

[d33pthought]

Wait..Courtesy, Integrety, Perserverance, Self-control, Indomitable Spirit are ITF? That's odd...we have those posted on the dojang wall as the WTF tenets. Let the weirdness live long and prosper, I gues :Alien:

[Thomas]

We have them as well in our WTF school and they can be found in the WTF handbooks as well (Yeon Hee Park, et.al., Tae Kwon Do (Facts on File:1989) )

The 5 Tenets of Tae Kwon Do
1. Courtesy
2. Integrity
3. Perseverance
4. Self Control
5. Indomitable Spirit

The 5 Principles of Tae Kwon Do
1. Loyalty to Country
2. Obedience to Parents
3. Confidence in friends
4. No Retreat from Enemy Attack
5. Refrain from Senseless Killing

[d33pthought]

So maybe ITF and WTF are have more in common than most people might publicly admit? Neat! :D

[Lithanwif]

Lithanwif - ...
I thought there was going to be a rumble - I could feel teh tension in the air. Fortunately that did not happen. Point is - there is too much pride and ego in the martial arts. IMHO.
Price and Ego have a place in the MA, as long as there is an equal amount of humour. We arent all warriors anymore. We dont fight for our schools against other schools.
besides as we all know...I'd batter the lot of you <G>

see that was humour like

[gaz shaw]

i train ITF tae kwon do so of course i am going to say tht it is better than WTF.

[z2bass]

I would say if you have a long future with TaeKwonDo, then you want to go with WTF. You will go to Korea to test for the High Dan level tests. You also will have a little breathing room as far as travel is concerned. WTF recognizes and certifies black belts (Don't worry, they just give you a card and certificate after you 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th Dan tests)

[Artikon]

You also will have a little breathing room as far as travel is concerned.

Don't quite get this, could you explain how this applies.



WTF recognizes and certifies black belts

WTF has nothing to do with the certification of dan levels. That is up to the Kukkiwon.

I also tend to think that you can have a long career with any of the organizing bodies of TKD. There's plenty of long time and high Dan's within the ITF as well as the WTF.

[BlackbeltRus]

Its not possible to compare them, but ITF is better, Its the founding organization of TKD

Paul K.
4th Dan

[Artikon]

Its not possible to compare them, but ITF is better, Its the founding organization of TKD

I think you did just compare them by saying one was better.

My question would be, how are you a 4th dan at 14?

[neryo_tkd]

My question would be, how are you a 4th dan at 14?


now don't get upset Artikon :mad:

[Artikon]

Not upset at all Neryo ;) just curious, I don't know how the ITF grading system is for Jrs.

[neryo_tkd]

Not upset at all Neryo ;) just curious, I don't know how the ITF grading system is for Jrs.

:) i'm glad to hear that :)

in WTF kids shouldn't get the Dan title. at that age it is called 'Poom' and accordingly they shouldn't be wearing a black belt either but a red-black one.

[Andy Cap]

Wait..Courtesy, Integrety, Perserverance, Self-control, Indomitable Spirit are ITF? That's odd...we have those posted on the dojang wall as the WTF tenets. Let the weirdness live long and prosper, I gues :Alien:

Again - these are in Hwang Kee's book. I do not recall specifically where he notes their origin, adn I am at work right now. I will chakc and get back to you. They predate ITF or WTF - that I can assure you.

[Andy Cap]

ITF and WTF grandmasters are from the same schools and organizations of origin. Essentially they came from teh same kwans and then decided they had a better way or answer. They then split for different approaches and different financial reasons. Again it comes down to ego and money.

[d33pthought]

Ego makes the world go round, and money pays the bills.

[Andy Cap]

Its not possible to compare them, but ITF is better, Its the founding organization of TKD

Paul K.
4th Dan

A 14 year old 4th dan that makes a sweeping statement like that - expected.

When did you start training in TKD, what age? In Tang Soo Do you cannot test for 4th dan until you are 21 years of age - I tend to agree with this. There is a kind of wisdom and knowledge most people would expect from a 4th dan "master". If the ITF says a 14 year old master is valid then I would dare say the ITF is not the best. I am not sure of the WTF policy either. Moo Duk Kwan required a person be 18 to test for their 3rd dan and they had to wait a minimum of 4 years before they could test for their 4th dan.

Bottom line is they both have their strengths and weaknesses. Do you like where you are? If so, then it is the right place and possibly the best for you. Don't judge other organizations unless you have been there. Yes some things scream of "YUCK", such as a 14 year old 4th dan, but that is just my own personal thing - considering I am 35 and have trained for 27 years and I am a 4th dan. I would not consider a 14 year old my peer. Nothing personal.

[neryo_tkd]

When did you start training in TKD, what age? In Tang Soo Do you cannot test for 4th dan until you are 21 years of age - I tend to agree with this. There is a kind of wisdom and knowledge most people would expect from a 4th dan "master". If the ITF says a 14 year old master is valid then I would dare say the ITF is not the best. I am not sure of the WTF policy either. Moo Duk Kwan required a person be 18 to test for their 3rd dan and they had to wait a minimum of 4 years before they could test for their 4th dan.


Here is what the Kukkiwon says about Dan/Poom grading:
http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/promotion/simsa_eng4.asp?div=5

As you can see, according to the Kukkiwon, he can't be a 4th Dan, but if his instructor says he can, then....

[Andy Cap]

Excellent Neryo. The same as what I am used to except the dan gradings happen 1 year faster per rank. Ages are the same.

[neryo_tkd]

Excellent Neryo. The same as what I am used to except the dan gradings happen 1 year faster per rank. Ages are the same.


1 year faster? you mean in your system or the one I posted (Kukkiwon)?

[Andy Cap]

In the Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan system we had to wait the number of years equal to the rank we were testing for in Dan. ex. 2nd - 3rd Dan is 3 years minimum. In Kukkiwan it is 2 years.

[Jayar]

Common guys, do you really think he's a fourth dan?
I doubt it. He's probably just talking himself up. To be a 3rd dan at 14 he would have had to be training for 9 years if he was some kind of increadible prodigey. I doubt it. (Plus, in ITF 7th dan is Master level, 4th is only international instructor and you have to have been a 2nd dan for at least 4 years except under very rare circumstances before u can get 3rd dan)
My school is ITF but we have ATA and WTF 3rd Dans (1 from each) train with us regularly.

My experience is that the WTF Style fighters protect the face less and concentrate less on power. On the other hand, the ITF fighters tend to get kicked before we see it coming (as a generality our kicks have more power but are less deceptive due to sine wave technique). I've sparred with some very inpressive people from ITF, ATA, MHK, and WTF. Emphasis differs, but they were all great fighters.

Also, I have often heard WTF people refer to their art as sport tkd or progressive tkd, whereas ITF often refers to theirs at traditional TKD, thats probably where alot of that debate comes from.

Amazingly, the Master Roena that I occasionally refer to is only a master in WTF. He's the master of a small collection of ITF schools but he's 5th Dan ITF and 6th WTF, making him a master in WTF but not ITF.

[Jayar]

Here's two demonstrations for Twimyo jirugi. Tell me what the difference is, and what is true to both of them.
Long watch btw, and actually quite enjoyable both of them. :)

Demo 1 part 1 (http://www.freefree.co.kr/taekwon/north_exhibition_1.wmv)
Demo 1 part 2 (http://www.freefree.co.kr/taekwon/north_exhibition_2.wmv)

Demo 2 part 1 (http://www.freefree.co.kr/taekwon/south_exhibition_1.wmv)
Demo 2 part 2 (http://www.freefree.co.kr/taekwon/south_exhibition_2.wmv)


Artikon, Where did you get these, they're increadible.

Oh, a quick note; It is a common misconception that ITF comes from North Korea. Actually it started in South Korea but due to Korean politics the General picked up and left, taking the ITF headquarter to Canada. After that point the North Koreans were ab bit more receptive to ITF than the South Koreans were. I beleive this was mentioned earlier but people have made some questionable comments since then, so I thought I'd try to offer a little more clarification.

[d33pthought]

Those demos were amazing! The amount of control those guys had was incredible, let alone their power!

[Jayar]

The following was written by ITF Vice-President Michael Tibollo

"In an interview for a Korean newspaper, I was asked whether it was my belief that ITF and WTF could co-exist in South Korea. I reminded the reporter that they were both born of the same parents and much like two children growing under the same roof, they are distinct and individual yet, related to one another. They are both of the same blood. As such, I believe that the ITF has a great future in South Korea along side WTF. In fact, as many of you know, ITF does not prohibit its members from belonging to other organizations including the WTF. In fact, we presently have many members that belong to both."

It seemed relevent to this thread. I, Jayar, am presently a member of 2 different schools as well.

[Artikon]

Artikon, Where did you get these, they're increadible.

Honestly I can't remember where I turned up those links. They were passed to me by a friend of mine a while ago. Those demos are fantastic as well, I had to download and save them to my HD just so I can watch them every now and then. Both demo teams are incredible.

[ipscshooter]

Here is what the Kukkiwon says about Dan/Poom grading:
http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/promotion/simsa_eng4.asp?div=5

As you can see, according to the Kukkiwon, he can't be a 4th Dan, but if his instructor says he can, then....
Where did everyone get the impression that this BlackBeltRus guy was 14? According to his profile, he was born in 1986, which would make him 18. Assuming he started training at about 5 years, and he was much more mature and more dedicated to his training than his peers, and he went to class 4-5 times a week, and never missed/failed a grading, then a 4th dan could arguably be achieved by 18 (i.e. 4 years to 1st dan, + 2 years to 2nd, + 3 years to 3rd, + 4 years to 4th = 13 years of training to reach 4th dan). Also, ITF uses the "master" title only for 7th dan and above. So, "master" would require another 18 years of training.

[neryo_tkd]

Where did everyone get the impression that this BlackBeltRus guy was 14? According to his profile, he was born in 1986, which would make him 18.

where did we get the impression???? maybe because it was written that way? :confused: :)

[ipscshooter]

where did we get the impression???? maybe because it was written that way? :confused: :)
By whom? BlackBeltRus didn't say anything about his age, at least not in this thread. Did I miss something in another thread? The first person in this thread to mention his age was Artikon.

Edit: I've gone back and looked at all of BlackBeltRus's posts. There are fewer than 20. He doesn't mention his age in any of them. Thus, I have to assume that math isn't one of Artikon's fortes, as he is the one who started the whole '14 year old 4th degree' string of posts.

[Artikon]

Yup you're right math isn't one of my strong points, however I do think I did the math right when I posted that. I actually thought afterwards it could of been a simple typo in the profile and it looks to me that the profile has had things added to it/changed since I saw it last, however, if the birthday did not change and I did simply do the math wrong, big apology to BBRus for that. :o

[neryo_tkd]

Yup you're right math isn't one of my strong points, however I do think I did the math right when I posted that. I actually thought afterwards it could of been a simple typo in the profile and it looks to me that the profile has had things added to it/changed since I saw it last, however, if the birthday did not change and I did simply do the math wrong, big apology to BBRus for that. :o


i think we did see things the way they were at a certain point of time, what happened later....?! but that is not important, let's move on :)

[Artikon]

Yup agree %100

http://www.goenglish.com/GoEnglish_com_BeatADeadHorse.gif

[Smokemare]

I'm surprised to see this still being added to. It has to be said though, there really is little point in spending an age debating which is the better style. I'm ITF through and through, but I won't diss WTF, and I don't spar like a typical ITF practitioner, because I've done some Muay Thai and Systema.

I don't win competitions, but I don't enter them - I just enjoy doing what I do and surprising people.

Forms wise - who cares really which set of forms is more 'traditional' or whatever. Any fool can make a form up - I've made several up for musical forms contests, it's really not that hard...

Okay they might not have the hidden wisdom of the ancients in them, but you could argue about hidden meanings and ancient wisdoms all day long - I find alot of the supposed hidden wisdom in forms a little impractical.

I suppose it goes back to my toolbox analagy, the ITF and WTF are two very similar types of toolkit, both intended for broadly the same job. One comes with a huge set of spanners, the other comes with a decent ratchet set. You can achieve broadly the same end with either. Whether it's quicker to be an effective fighter with one or the other depends more on whether you are good at using spanners or you are good at using ratchet sets.

[Liamtkd]

I'm surprised to see this still being added to.

Surprised? you're the only person to add to it since december last year!

I suppose it goes back to my toolbox analagy, the ITF and WTF are two very similar types of toolkit, both intended for broadly the same job. One comes with a huge set of spanners, the other comes with a decent ratchet set. You can achieve broadly the same end with either. Whether it's quicker to be an effective fighter with one or the other depends more on whether you are good at using spanners or you are good at using ratchet sets.

good point though

[Lithanwif]

That is a nice point, and as a TKD'er and classic car fanatic, I might have to steal it.

[Cantwell]

The way I see it, both sides are mixed up in in their different orgs and forms and such. So I just found a teacher close to me who uses the general's forms and teachings out of an instructional encyclopedia he has. His Sensei also trainned with the general directly. I haven't started yet but the guy seems to know what he is talking about and just wants to keep the art the way it was started.

[Swift_Lance]

I know theres a large(enough) diffrence between the two, and from what i've read most people are ITF. Just wondering if one is supposed to be more proficent than the other, kuz i've always been WTF.

Just wondering...

And just to clear my useless sense of stability, im not a new member, I just lost my other acount... :bang:

[EternalRage]

I always thought WTF was more prominent because of the Kukkiwon and government endorsement as well as the advent of Olympic Style sparring.

What exactly do you mean by "which is more proficient?" If you mean effective, I'd have to say ITF, merely because they don't use hogus and other protective sparring gear and also they hit to the head. That isn't to say that WTF people can't fight, its just that one is more geared towards competition (WTF) and the other is not.

Aren't there like a billion threads on this subject on like every martial arts forum on the web????

[Slindsay]

Yep, literally billions, nearly one for every man woman and child alive today.

The counterargument from WTF is something like "We fight full contact and you don't" or some such and that WTF is evolving and changing TKD.

It doesnt really matter though, techniques are virtually identical, it just comes down to how the instructors train them and for what.

[pulp fiction]

Wtf or ITF? That's not new. Well it all depends to you, if you like your current style that's perfect.

As long as you are happy with it who cares.

[Leo_E_49]

The big technical difference is the sine wave (search this site for more information) used by ITF. This is not used by any other TKD organisation as far as I know.

Apart from that, TKD is TKD. Doesn't really matter where you study it (apart from in a McDojang) it's all the same.

[Smokemare]

Well, it's just a matter of style, school and your preference. I always did ITF, but if I had to change school and the WTF alternative was better than the closest ITF alternative I'd change.

There's an enormous variation of style and quality within even large organisations, let alone styles. To be honest, if you saw some of the high level ITF competitions, like the european championships for example - the difference between semi and full contact seems a bit non-existant. At the highest level they don't pull punches, okay they don't reward knock outs, but alot of competitors come out of it with blood stained doboks.

[Tetsujin]

WTF? ITF? it's the same...the only difference is ITF doesnt really emphasize on the sport..It emphasize's the tradional aspect of TKD..I myself..would rather join ITF than WTF..I wanna see how strong it is...Choi!!

[Tetsujin]

umm..I just wanna know somethin' we know TAE-KWON-DO make's use of the foo or feet..with a few fist techs., while caproieca mainly use their foot or feet..what I wanna know is..which of these 2 arts..would win in a match.

[neryo_tkd]

umm..I just wanna know somethin' we know TAE-KWON-DO make's use of the foo or feet..with a few fist techs., while caproieca mainly use their foot or feet..what I wanna know is..which of these 2 arts..would win in a match.


caproieca??? what's that supposed to be?

this is a thread about WTF taekwondo and ITF taekwondo, so let's not make it into a 'one martial art vs another martial art' thread.

[Jayar]

Tetsujin, that is a very foolish question to ask. It depends on so many factors, of which style is a very minor one.

[CrowZer0]

ITF ALL THE WAY, reasons being one, North Korea is just so much more Kick Ass than south korea can ever dream to be, just look at their millitary all their sergeants have to be a 2nd dan so on, also Choi as mentioned many times above as I can see, it is also FULL CONTACT, wheras WTF is Semi Contact, I have always favoured Full contact over Semi COntact better results, itf is more traditional! Usualy meaning more orthodox methods, including plain and simple hardcore hardwork and pain! Wheras WTF seems to approach a more, westernised style with more restrictions and as mentioned above is more sports orientated, I have witnessed fights in tournaments and so on between tkd wtf and other clubs including karate, muay thai so on, they seem to get embaressed, wheras i know some hard nut itf teacher, funnily enough they teach illegally for some reason...

[Artikon]

I think you are over generalizing. I would like to know where you got these ideas that one ITF is full contact ***disclaimer*** within the ITF ruleset there is a rule stating excessive contact. How you train is a different story. WTF there is not such rule . . . again how one trains is a different story. Not trying to take sides. ***/disclaimer***

I would be interested to know how you know that North Korea requires sergents to be 2nd dan. Do you have documentation of this? South Korea on the other hand does require its military to go through TKD training as well. Could they have similar guidelines?

The differences between ITF and WTF when getting down to it are minimal. The biggest differences is within ruleset of the sport. Everything else is basically posturing by either organzation and the people who buy into the propoganda. When it comes down to it, one of my students mentioned TKD is TKD. I tend to agree with this.

Don't get me wrong, I am quite happy to be involved with the WTF and Kukkiwon, but at the end of the day I practice Taekwondo. Whether or not it has an I or a W at the start doesn't matter to me.

[neryo_tkd]

ITF ALL THE WAY, reasons being one, North Korea is just so much more Kick Ass than south korea can ever dream to be, just look at their millitary all their sergeants have to be a 2nd dan so on, also Choi as mentioned many times above as I can see, it is also FULL CONTACT, wheras WTF is Semi Contact, I have always favoured Full contact over Semi COntact better results, itf is more traditional! Usualy meaning more orthodox methods, including plain and simple hardcore hardwork and pain! Wheras WTF seems to approach a more, westernised style with more restrictions and as mentioned above is more sports orientated, I have witnessed fights in tournaments and so on between tkd wtf and other clubs including karate, muay thai so on, they seem to get embaressed, wheras i know some hard nut itf teacher, funnily enough they teach illegally for some reason...

i think that you are misinformed. in other words, i agree with artikon's post above.

[CrowZer0]

I have heard about the North Korean millitray and how they are probably the most well trained ar my out their, I have also on more than one occasion heard about their tkd training in their regimen, history books, documentaries you name it, it's actualy quite common knowledge among people who studied the cold war in our school, as for semi contact full contact, come on wtf is so sports based with all that protection, ITF doesnt seem to do this, I have met ITF fighters from the Middle East, Holland, and so on, I have been to WTF classes, you can notice difference straight away.

[neryo_tkd]

I have heard about the North Korean millitray and how they are probably the most well trained ar my out their, I have also on more than one occasion heard about their tkd training in their regimen, history books, documentaries you name it, it's actualy quite common knowledge among people who studied the cold war in our school, as for semi contact full contact, come on wtf is so sports based with all that protection, ITF doesnt seem to do this, I have met ITF fighters from the Middle East, Holland, and so on, I have been to WTF classes, you can notice difference straight away.


well, i could say the same about WTF and ITF, only the other way around. WTF that we train is all the way full contact.

generalisations are never good, you know. if something is done one way in your city it doesn't necessarily mean that it is done that way everywhere else, because you have not been all around the world.

[CrowZer0]

On your lil avatar pic isnt that 2 people fighting with a helmet and other protection on? WTF... Not Itf

[neryo_tkd]

On your lil avatar pic isnt that 2 people fighting with a helmet and other protection on? WTF... Not Itf

yes, WTF, so?

[CrowZer0]

Well neryo my friend, in every ITF club I have ben to, protection is unheard of, FULL contact, no protection, WTF is a lot more tournament orientated, come on how can you argue with that?

[neryo_tkd]

Well neryo my friend, in every ITF club I have ben to, protection is unheard of, FULL contact, no protection, WTF is a lot more tournament orientated, come on how can you argue with that?


i can argue with that. maybe i trained ITF and was not pleased because it was not full contact and maybe that is the reason why i went to WTF because it is full contact. but on the other side, how can you know how we train at our club or so many other clubs around the world?! so, go ahead, train your full contact ITF. i hope you enjoy it because i do enjoy my full contact WTF.

[CrowZer0]

I quit TKD a long time ago, I don't train in ITF or WTF, although I have studied both, ITF for about 6 years of my life, if I had a choice between the 2 I would sway towards ITF without knowing more about the particular club, I am only saying what I know, I know a lot of ITF members and a lot of WTF fighters, it is common acceptance over here in london that ITF is more traditional, Full contact and so on, wheras WTF is more westernised sports orientated, and they use a lot of protection, but I do enjoy martial arts;) and I am glad you enjoy your art:) This wa sin no way a personal attack on any club, I was just stating my preference towards ITF.

[neryo_tkd]

I quit TKD a long time ago, I don't train in ITF or WTF, although I have studied both, ITF for about 6 years of my life, if I had a choice between the 2 I would sway towards ITF without knowing more about the particular club, I am only saying what I know, I know a lot of ITF members and a lot of WTF fighters, it is common acceptance over here in london that ITF is more traditional, Full contact and so on, wheras WTF is more westernised sports orientated, and they use a lot of protection, but I do enjoy martial arts;) and I am glad you enjoy your art:) This wa sin no way a personal attack on any club, I was just stating my preference towards ITF.


of course, everyone has their likes/dislikes. in one of our threads a member who trains ITF said that they train with full gear on. so, you see, generalisations can never be good.

[CrowZer0]

Generalisations are based on the majority not the minority my friend:) But this convo is now getting pointless lol, lets agree to disagree, you favour wtf and i itf, savvy?

[oni_sensei]

Generalisations are based on the majority not the minority

No they're not. There based on what people happen to be seeing at the time, and what they assume to be the majority. They're a theory as to what is the majority, which is impossible to determine. We're not psychics, we don't know what happens at every single school. The fact is though, that the best schools do teach full contact, and coming from an ITF background, and my experiences with the organisation over the last decade, I can also say that MANY ITF schools do not train full contact (which is a pity), or even have the faintest idea about sparring at all.

Common acceptance does not indicate correctness. WTF is officially a full contact sport, ITF technically is not. It all comes down to the school itself, not people's assumptions.

But I agree, this argument is becoming pointless.

[neryo_tkd]

It all comes down to the school itself

i completely agree.

[Thomas]

I have heard about the North Korean millitray and how they are probably the most well trained ar my out their, I have also on more than one occasion heard about their tkd training in their regimen, history books, documentaries you name it, it's actualy quite common knowledge among people who studied the cold war in our school, as for semi contact full contact, come on wtf is so sports based with all that protection, ITF doesnt seem to do this, I have met ITF fighters from the Middle East, Holland, and so on, I have been to WTF classes, you can notice difference straight away.
Concerning the TKD of North Korea, it's hard to say. I would imagine that people are highly restricted from learning unarmed fighting arts there... it may be a threat to the ruling regime.
Here's a bit of history that sort of applies, well worth a read (as well as the whole articles quoted below)

Martial arts in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (D.P.R.K.; North Korea) probably disappeared after the communists took control in the 1950s. They were certainly gone in 1981 when Karl Nicoletti visited the D.P.R.K. with a demonstration team led by Hong-Hi Choi and Chuck Sereff. Nicoletti reported that "the martial arts in general, and tae kwon do in particular, are virtually unknown in North Korea." The only martial art he could discover was an informal form of unarmed combat called "kuok sul" (kuksul) that was practiced by the military. Private instruction in the martial arts would tend to support resistance to the state, and like the Japanese before them, the communists did not allow such resistance. Official discouragement of private martial arts was definitely a pattern in the D.P.R.K.'s neighbour, communist China. Nigel Sutton has reported that private martial arts in the People's Republic of China (P.R.C.) were largely reduced because the communists believed that "in our socialist society we do not need to fight or to be able to defend ourselves." In fact, at least one martial arts teacher in the P.R.C. was "beaten to death by a crowd armed with clubs, who urged him to use his 'gongfu' to defend himself." The loss of North Korean arts is regrettable, since they would have provided an excellent source of comparison for the development of t'aekwondo in South Korea.
http://www.indiana.edu/~iutkd/history/tkdhist.html

Part 2 of the history:
http://www.iub.edu/%7Eiutkd/history/tkdhist2.html

[Leo_E_49]

Well neryo my friend, in every ITF club I have ben to, protection is unheard of, FULL contact, no protection, WTF is a lot more tournament orientated, come on how can you argue with that?

Then these schools are not following the official ITF sparring rules. Which follow:

http://www.itf-information.com/information10c.htm

Note Article 37 Section F which states that "contact" with your opponent will result in a "foul". Also note Article 36 Section B which states that "heavy contact" will result in a "disqualification", meaning that participant loses the match by default.

WTF rules have no such prohibitions, apart from that there may be no hand contact to the head.

The hogus absorb some of the damage but it still hurts plenty through them, I assure you, and a kick to the head full force WILL knock people out some of the time, regardless of head protection. (I have personal experience here)

It appears that ITF sparring has more of an emphasis on control and accuracy than contact. Heavy contact is clearly seen as clumsy and lacking in self control, one of the tenets of TKD.

[neryo_tkd]

Note Article 37 Section F which states that "contact" with your opponent will result in a "foul". Also note Article 36 Section B which states that "heavy contact" will result in a "disqualification", meaning that participant loses the match by default.

WTF rules have no such prohibitions, apart from that there may be no hand contact to the head.

exactly what i thought about ITF and what i've been told many times.

i agree with you concerning the WTF gear and pain. everyone who thinks that you're 100% safe with our gear on should definitely give it a try.

[TheMadhoose]

HI All! I am a new entrant to the world of MA and am quickly getting enamoured with it. I have started with WTF TKD. My question is: which one is better - WTF or ITF TKD? or is it possible to compare them like this? Thanks in advance.

WTF or ITF the TAGB TaeKwon-Do International offer the best ofboth worlds we compete in both sides with succcess

[Master Maldonad]

one quick comment ITF is NOT North Korean. It was invented by Gen Choi Hong Hi a South Korean ARMY General while in a POW Camp. Gen Choi was born in what now is North Korea yes and was buried there as well. Today North Korea dose recognize ITF as "their" Taekwon-Do but it's NOT Really North Korean...... My 2 cents worth

[TraditionalTKD]

A South Korean Army General who visited and communicated with North Korea every chance he got. To many in South Korea he is considered a traitor. Not trying to stir up trouble or take away from his contributions, just stating facts.
If Canada were communist, and I went there without government authorization to teach and promote Tae Kwon Do, I'd be considered a traitor as well.

[Tetsujin]

I just wanna know something..Which is better? ITF of WTF?..I mean we all study the same art..the only difference is the teaching methods..could someone tell me! which is better ITF TKD? of WTF TKD?..thnx... :Angel: I thank all of those who viewed and gave their opinion...

[fear]

there's a problem.. neither is better they are both equal depending on the person that is teaching and how you act as a student. when you begin to think one is better and you go to a competition saying.. oh yeah my style owns yours.. you get swift reality check if that student has trained and focused more then you. It's all about how your learn how you are taught and how you use what you learned.

[DavidSJ]

The one thing that both sides can agree upon is that competition wise, WTF is far better organized, far better recognized, and has more prestige/status in the international community as a sport. By default that means bigger, more, and better organized competitions at the national, regional, and international level...so if you want to compete in a sport, then WTF is the clear choice.

[DavidSJ]

Dolio (sp?) kick is very different, in ITF you turn your hip, but in WTF you just turn your leg, etc

Go to the US Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs and ask any of the team members there to demonstrate a sparring style "off-the-line" roundhouse for you and see if his hip turns right before the leg shatters your ribs.

Simple fact of the matter is, WTF is evolving to become more sport-oriented. More and more dojangs are changing to train students specifically to be able to spar within the rules adopted by the WTF. Due to this simple reality, in Korea, the nature of WTF style training is significantly different than ITF style training. You can expect to see this trend continue even outside of Korea.

ITF fighters simply can't compete in a WTF tournament because they haven't had the long hours of specialized WTF style sparring training, and it takes quite a while to make a good crossover between ITF/WTF.

Disclaimer: I am only speaking for high-level competitions. An excellent ITF fighter can probably go and own in a local tournament, but not against a decent fighter.




My experience is that the WTF Style fighters protect the face less and concentrate less on power. (as a generality our kicks have more power but are less deceptive due to sine wave technique)

F = MA........

I doubt any ITF fighter could kick as fast or as hard as the top WTF fighter...comparable sure, but not faster.

People should really stop making generalizations about ITF and WTF based on their own personal experiences. Chances are, unless you train with serious, current national level competitors, you just don't know the full potential of what either style is capable of. All you see are the less-developed techniques of your training mates, and of course you can make generalizations based on that. BUt if you train with actual good people, you can see a SHARP difference between WTF and ITF style training.

Whomever keeps saying ITF is full contact and WTF is not needs to get a life. If ITF is full contact, then I'm sorry but your kicks must be pretty damn weak if you can't even break someone's unprotected ribs with "full contact" kicks to the chest!!!

Oh, and that "clicking" noise ITF people make during their forms are ANNOYING :)



ITF ALL THE WAY, reasons being one, North Korea is just so much more Kick Ass than south korea can ever dream to be

Dude, over 50% of the North Korean population is suffering from stunted growth because of malnutrition. Over 5 million have starved to death (out of a population of 26million) since 1991. North Korea is run by lunatics and it's a complete disgrace what that government has allowed to occur to their people.

Go tell the 300,000 or so North Koreans starving to death/being tortured in the gulags how awesome their country is...

[Sang]

I would try both ITF and WTF TKD. All MA styles are brilliant, it's just that bad schools give the style a bad name. So the hard thing is to find good schools that teach well and don't rip you off. Knowledge is power and it's always good to have more tricks up your sleeves.

[rtkd]

ITF fighters simply can't compete in a WTF tournament because they haven't had the long hours of specialized WTF style sparring training, and it takes quite a while to make a good crossover between ITF/WTF.
and vice versa

Disclaimer: I am only speaking for high-level competitions. An excellent ITF fighter can probably go and own in a local tournament, but not against a decent fighter.
isnt this a generalization?


F = MA........

I doubt any ITF fighter could kick as fast or as hard as the top WTF fighter...comparable sure, but not faster.
and this?

People should really stop making generalizations about ITF and WTF based on their own personal experiences.
ring a bell?


Oh, and that "clicking" noise ITF people make during their forms are ANNOYING :)
your on generalizing fire!

And im not even itf

[Sang]

Note Article 37 Section F which states that "contact" with your opponent will result in a "foul". Also note Article 36 Section B which states that "heavy contact" will result in a "disqualification", meaning that participant loses the match by default.

Does this rule apply to black belt sparring competitions too? I am puzzled as I have just watched Ri Chol Nam of North Korea vs Kochshegulov of Kazakhstan in an ITF tournament held in Korea (North or South? I don't know). Ri knocks out his opponent with a 360 deg turning kick to the head and wins the fight. Click on http://www.dkbnews.com/bbs/view.php?id=headlinenews&no=3122 to watch the fight.

Ri faces Hwang Su Il (the guy who did Hwoarang in Tekken) in the final and wins in the sudden death round. Unfortunately, the final is not in the video link above. I am sure that many people in this forum have seen this vid. Do full contact rules apply in black belt ITF competitions?

[DavidSJ]

and vice versa


isnt this a generalization?



and this?


ring a bell?



your on generalizing fire!

And im not even itf

No, no, no, and no.

It is not a generalization that an ITF fighter would get creamed fighting in the World Championships or Olympic Games without years of specialized training. There are plenty of primary source interviews of North Korean ITF athletes who come down to South Korea for demonstrations who accept this fact.

It is also not a generalization to state that an ITF fighter can't kick faster than a WTF fighter. It would be a generalization however to claim that ITF or WTF kicks are faster...kick speed is purely dependent upon genetic endowment and training. As of now, ITF and WTF style kicks are too similar for drastically divergent methods of training to exist to result in "faster" kicks one way or the other.

Finally, the "clicking" comment I made was NOT a generalization. It was a statement of value.

[DavidSJ]

Does this rule apply to black belt sparring competitions too? I am puzzled as I have just watched Ri Chol Nam of North Korea vs Kochshegulov of Kazakhstan in an ITF tournament held in Korea (North or South? I don't know). Ri knocks out his opponent with a 360 deg turning kick to the head and wins the fight. Click on http://www.dkbnews.com/bbs/view.php?id=headlinenews&no=3122 to watch the fight.

Ri faces Hwang Su Il (the guy who did Hwoarang in Tekken) in the final and wins in the sudden death round. Unfortunately, the final is not in the video link above. I am sure that many people in this forum have seen this vid. Do full contact rules apply in black belt ITF competitions?

Yes...the simple fact of the matter is, it doesn't take a FULL power kick to the head to knock someone out, especially without head protection on. Now if every fight ended with broken ribs and knockouts, then a case may be made that ITF is full contact, but that's clearly not the case.

[rtkd]

Yes...the simple fact of the matter is, it doesn't take a FULL power kick to the head to knock someone out, especially without head protection on. Now if every fight ended with broken ribs and knockouts, then a case may be made that ITF is full contact, but that's clearly not the case.

does every mma fight end in broken ribs and knockouts? But how? for they are called full contact fights? :rolleyes:
this has to be some kind of record for the most rediculous statements made by one person in a single thread.

[DavidSJ]

No, because MMA fighters guard against full contact blows to the chest through blocks, and no offense, but most kicks thrown in UFC/Pride/K1 tend to be pretty weak.

But seriously, I would pay you to come to Korea if you would let me or any of my teammates do a full contact unblocked kick to the chest and see what happens.

[TheMadhoose]

the only good taekwon-do taekwondo tae kwon do or however you wanna spell it is a taekwon-do that is effective no matte rwhat side of the ITF/WTF divide you are on there is bad tkd and good tkd there is even some great tkd out there dont judge it on its affiliation judge it on its students they ar ethe proof.

just my opinion

[Alex O]

The best thing about begginers?
-They ask the best questions.

Firstly, I better explain, I am an ITF (Chang Ung) man, have been for six years. During my second year, however, I thought it a good idea to try WTF, just to see what the difference is (and I reccomend you do the same). You will, no doubt hear that ITF is 'traditional' TKD - there is NO SUCH THING! 50 years of development does not make tradition. Anyway, the main difference is the focus, ITF=Patterns (tuls), WTF=Sport (sparring). WTF TKD is currently an Olympic sport (and a boring one at that - in my opinion). However, Chang Ung's ITF are in talks with the WTF and things may well change on that front.

The ITF is not without it's problems, however. Please ensure you go to a good ITF school should you give it a go. There are lots of 'Mcdojo's when it comes to TKD. There is also the fact that there are now 3 ITF's. These are Master Chang Ung (Vienna), Master Tran, and Master Choi Jung Hwa. Chang Ung holds the official HQ and is in a legal battle with Tran over this and Master Choi appears to hope for a deal with the WTF. This is where the ITF falls on its face, the fact that there is so much political BS.

However, if you do take a look at a good ITF school politics has very little effect. The ITF has a gives importance to Korean terms and theory (and recognises that TKD did NOT start hundreds of years ago - unlike the WTF).

Anyway, the best thing to do would be to look at and join a good ITF school for a while and decide for yourself, on this board you will most likley only get info given with bias.

[Alex O]

Whats up with Choi moving to canada anyways? I mean no offence to canadians, but canada is full of canadians!

Crazy guy...

Helm...way off topic once more.

General Choi (allegedly) moved to Canada after the Koreans got deleted at the thought of him teaching the world TKD (they wished to keep it for the army). This argument between Gen. Choi and the Korean Gov'ment got so bad they kidnapped his son to change his mind. Choi chose his art over his son, but they let Choi Jung Hwa free anyway.

That's what I was told

[TraditionalTKD]

Gen. Choi led Tae Kwon Do exhibitions to various nations around Asia at the behest of the Korean gov't. It was when he led a delegation to North Korea that they got upset. North Korea and South Korea are enemies remember, despite whatever sentimental feelings Gen. Choi might have had for them.
That and the fact that he insisted on doing everything his way made him no friends in the Korean gov't.

[Francis Tan]

No, because MMA fighters guard against full contact blows to the chest through blocks, and no offense, but most kicks thrown in UFC/Pride/K1 tend to be pretty weak.

First of all, I do not know of anyone who intentionally allows full contact blows without attempting some blocking or evasive measures. Secondly, during sparring or tournament fighting, some strength is sacrificed in order to have the speed to react to an opening or to avoid telegraphing an attacking move.

I have not watched many UFC, Pride or K1 matches but how are you able to assess the strength of their kicks? Have you actually taken part in tournaments before? :woo:


But seriously, I would pay you to come to Korea if you would let me or any of my teammates do a full contact unblocked kick to the chest and see what happens.

I don't think you'd need to pay anyone to go to Korea just to feel the impact of an unblocked kick, unless you are fighting dummies. Anybody with brains and sense WILL know that an unprotected blow, even from an untrained person, has the potential to cause a lot of damage.

The statements you make smack of ignorance and, in the words of my teacher, the result of too much blood and too little brains. In other words, mouth move before brain engaged. :bang:

Regards,
Francis

[rtkd]

First of all, I do not know of anyone who intentionally allows full contact blows without attempting some blocking or evasive measures. Secondly, during sparring or tournament fighting, some strength is sacrificed in order to have the speed to react to an opening or to avoid telegraphing an attacking move.

I have not watched many UFC, Pride or K1 matches but how are you able to assess the strength of their kicks? Have you actually taken part in tournaments before? :woo:




I don't think you'd need to pay anyone to go to Korea just to feel the impact of an unblocked kick, unless you are fighting dummies. Anybody with brains and sense WILL know that an unprotected blow, even from an untrained person, has the potential to cause a lot of damage.

The statements you make smack of ignorance and, in the words of my teacher, the result of too much blood and too little brains. In other words, mouth move before brain engaged. :bang:

Regards,
Francis

mate, I wouldnt bother with responding to his posts. His experience is limited and it shows in every post. Nothing exists outside of wtf :rolleyes:

[Gizmo]

However, Choi Jung Hwa's ITF are in talks with the WTF and things may well change on that front.

(...)

Chang Ung holds the official HQ and is in a legal battle with Tran over this and Master Choi appears to hope for a deal with the WTF. This is where the ITF falls on its face, the fact that there is so much political BS.


In fact it's Chang Ung's ITF that is in talks with the WTF. Check Chang Ung's ITF website (http://www.itftkd.org) for details. AFAIK there are no such talks between Master Choi's ITF and the WTF.

Regards

Gizmo

[Gizmo]

It is not a generalization that an ITF fighter would get creamed fighting in the World Championships or Olympic Games without years of specialized training. There are plenty of primary source interviews of North Korean ITF athletes who come down to South Korea for demonstrations who accept this fact.

Couple of years ago, a group of ITF competitors from Poland, including World Champion Tomasz Idzikowski, switched to WTF, but they never managed to win a medal on any WTF international competition they went to. In fact, only one girl from that group (Dorota Majorkiewicz) managed to establish herself on the national WTF scene, and it took her quite a while.

Gizmo

[DavidSJ]

mate, I wouldnt bother with responding to his posts. His experience is limited and it shows in every post. Nothing exists outside of wtf :rolleyes:


My experience is "limited" to having trained in taekwondo in Korea since I was 6, and then competing seriously in the high school and collegiate level. I just finished my last season competing for Yonsei University and am retiring from my competitive career as a 4th dan at the age of 22.

I've trained alongside Korean and US national team members, and have had the privilege of being coached by some of the best coaching talent in both the US and Korea. The ITF demonstrations and North Korean demo teams that you guys talk about or read about in the papers, I've actually witnessed, and I've actually talked to members of that team.

Also, while training in Korea we've had plenty of times when we would spar ITF fighters or fighters of other styles and arts, including MMA. And rather than being a casual spectator, we scientifically analyze each fight and make our own analysis of the strenghts and weaknesses of each fight...this is something to do with the fact that you can earn a PhD in Taekwondo at most major Universities in Korea.

You on the otherhand, are probably a "hobbyist" when it comes to martial arts. You've probably never competed seriously or at an Olympic training center. And you've probably never trained alongside or under some of the best talent in the world. Of course you're not going to understand what I'm saying or know what you're talking about when it comes to WTF sparring.

[rtkd]

My experience is "limited" to having trained in taekwondo in Korea since I was 6, and then competing seriously in the high school and collegiate level. I just finished my last season competing for Yonsei University and am retiring from my competitive career as a 4th dan at the age of 22.
Round of applause :rolleyes: If you have trained so hard and are so good, please tell me what you have acheived on an international level, not high school or college results?
Your experience is limited to WTF and your knowledge is limited to your holier than thou attitude!

I've trained alongside Korean and US national team members, and have had the privilege of being coached by some of the best coaching talent in both the US and Korea. The ITF demonstrations and North Korean demo teams that you guys talk about or read about in the papers, I've actually witnessed, and I've actually talked to members of that team.

Actuall I have never once mentioned demo teams? Speaking to the ITF teams does not mean you have trained with them.

Also, while training in Korea we've had plenty of times when we would spar ITF fighters or fighters of other styles and arts, including MMA. And rather than being a casual spectator, we scientifically analyze each fight and make our own analysis of the strenghts and weaknesses of each fight...this is something to do with the fact that you can earn a PhD in Taekwondo at most major Universities in Korea.

Watching videos and analyzing them doesnt mean too much. I have watched and analyzed Tyson videos but this doesnt not mean I can beat him?

You on the otherhand, are probably a "hobbyist" when it comes to martial arts. You've probably never competed seriously or at an Olympic training center.

You are right to say I have never competed seriously or at an olympic training centre. This is due to the fact my school does not compete in any competition, and I do not study WTF??
If I am a hobbyist, please explain to me what your current employment?

And you've probably never trained alongside or under some of the best talent in the world.

And you know this by .......?
Another one for the ridiculous statement file.
Go back to primary school kid, your mind is still there.

[Artikon]

Easy fellas. We all do TKD, but we all don't do it for the same reason. The very fact that there are so many different types and focuses in TKD leaves it open for basically anyone to participate in and practice.

I don't think we should argue over semantics of the whole deal, mostly because none of us have really trained with each other and to be honest many things are lost in the translation of text on the internet.

I think the biggest problem with what is happening right now on this thread, and amongst TKD groups is the problem of ego. We all are proud of where we have trained and where we have come from, but I think everyone needs to keep an open mind on what others training experiences have been and remind ourselves that whatever we are doing is not the be all and end all for everyone. For individuals it may not be; however, whatever RTKD is doing, DavidSJ is doing, Sonic is doing, Thomas, Kickchick, Neryo, whomever will never be the same training for me because I am an individual with strengths and weaknesses. Certain schools will accomodate what I need to work on and help me exploit my weaknesses, other schools will not. Not saying those schools, systems, organizations aren't bad, just not for me.

[DavidSJ]

Round of applause :rolleyes: If you have trained so hard and are so good, please tell me what you have acheived on an international level, not high school or college results?


If you had any concept of WTF competition, you'd know that you have to qualify as a National Team member to compete in international tournaments. In Korea, that is vastly more difficult than in any other country. Our collegiate competitions are essentially the national championships, with over 50% of all Olympic/World Champions being current University students at places like Young-In or Kyung-Hee.


Watching videos and analyzing them doesnt mean too much. I have watched and analyzed Tyson videos but this doesnt not mean I can beat him?

Ever input those videos into computers to run the latest physics models and stop-motion technology? Or apply statistical models to a fight? Anything requiring scientific analysis? Of course not. And did I ever say I could beat any of the fights we study? No way...but we do have a more scientific and technical understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of each style, and what is and is not feasible as far as taekwondo reform goes.


If I am a hobbyist, please explain to me what your current employment??

Are you just not comprehending? It's simple...in Korea, professional taekwondo athletes aged 18-22 ATTEND University and compete through the collegiate circuit. While they are technically students, their "real" job is competing. 2 out of 4 of the Korean Olympic Team for 2004 were "students."



Go back to primary school kid, your mind is still there.

A classic example of a scope shift logical reasoning error...congratulations.

[Taliar]

Well I've trained with the guys from Young-In Uni and they are amazing.

All I can say is we do ITF they do WTF and we still got along well, even though there was a big language barrier. However their attitude was one of encouragement and helpful instruction.

However good your Martial Skills are, they need to be backed up by good interpersonal skills, and this involves not belittling others and getting on your high horse.

[DavidSJ]

Well I've trained with the guys from Young-In Uni and they are amazing.

All I can say is we do ITF they do WTF and we still got along well, even though there was a big language barrier. However their attitude was one of encouragement and helpful instruction.

However good your Martial Skills are, they need to be backed up by good interpersonal skills, and this involves not belittling others and getting on your high horse.

"your on generalizing fire!"

"this has to be some kind of record for the most rediculous statements made by one person in a single thread."

"mate, I wouldnt bother with responding to his posts. His experience is limited and it shows in every post."

"Go back to primary school kid, your mind is still there."

I hate to say it but....he started it :)

[Francis Tan]

David,

Your last posts, although they are now more logical, still smack of "my style is better than yours." You have every right to be proud and loyal to your style but let's not get overboard and forget the tenets (I hope we have not forgotten them?).

Let's cut out all this bullcrap about paying people to fly to Korea and stuff like that. Statements like these do not win you any friends and degenerates this topic to name calling and uncalled for remarks. Let's all agree to back off and make sensible, matured and logical posts.

Cheers,
Francis

P/S - Not to say I was any better myself but we can all do with less flames on this forum.

[neryo_tkd]

hey guys,

if you cannot contribute to the thread, then don't post. it's as simple as that. i don't want to see this great thread being watered down.

[jay20]

Almost everyone that trains TKD in Denmark, trains WTF-
Just a little personal note: I train Maeng Sul Taekwondo and we kick about 25% of the time. Almost all of the kicks are performed at stomach level or lower unless we have substantially inhibited the possibility of a counter strikes. The main focus of the training is self defence and there are more than 175 self defence techniques to black belt varying from one or two basics up to about six to eight basics per SD technique. When we spar, all kicks and punches are allowed to all parts of the body including the back and groin. We also fight on the ground where again all techniques are allowed (except finger and toe locks - they break too quick), though biting, pinching, eye gouging and the like are only allowed in defence, not offence.

I like the sound of that!!!

[TaeKwonDoJoe]

I did not go through all 212 pages of posts so i am not sure if this was brought up. I am training under the WTF style and my Brother is with an ITF. I am not 100% sure if this is with all WTF vs ITF Do Jangs. i fully understand the Both go through different colors as you are promoted, but studying under the WTF it will take me a minumum of 2-1/2 years to go from White to 1st Black where my Brother under ITF it will only be 20 months. i see that as a BIG difference in training time to get Black. thats my 2 cents.

[Andy Cap]

I did not go through all 212 pages of posts so i am not sure if this was brought up. I am training under the WTF style and my Brother is with an ITF. I am not 100% sure if this is with all WTF vs ITF Do Jangs. i fully understand the Both go through different colors as you are promoted, but studying under the WTF it will take me a minumum of 2-1/2 years to go from White to 1st Black where my Brother under ITF it will only be 20 months. i see that as a BIG difference in training time to get Black. thats my 2 cents.


Hey Joe - That is not a standard for ITF I can assure you. The ITF club I am friendly with requires far longer than that. I asked one black belt and it took him 4 years of training. I believe you will find it to vary from school to school as well as from organization to organization.

[Artikon]

Right on Andy,

Yes that is definately a school to school thing and not some much the organization. Just to tag onto Andy as well, it also depends on the individual training.

There are tons of factors that affect the progress towards a black belt.

[TaeKwonDoJoe]

i just dont quite understand how if a Do Jang i goverened by lets say the ITA taht they would be different from any other ITA Do Jang. just seems logical to me that you would have same basic standards such as belt colors and how often you test and utilizing the same base or structored requirements to get promoted. and withthe timeing i gave...that was if you never failed or missed a test that is the Minimal amount of time it would take. utilizing 2 months between each testing.

[Artikon]

Having base requirements is all well and good; however that is exactly it a base. Most instructors that I know take the base and put their own spin, add in certain things and teach different ways. Likewise every student learns differently, has different training methods, and different extra commitments affecting thier training.

School to school time is going to be different to reach a certain level. Person to person time is going to be different depending on progression and learning rate. No organization in the world can regulate exactly what is done in each school; however they can establish a base, as you pointed out :)

[HwaRang]

TKD goes as far back to cave paintings of men fighting wild animals in a form of combat labelled taek kyun. I assume that any fighting form developed to defeat an animal would be based around ending the fight quick with as powerful/simple techniques.
WTF style i guess.
apart from watching olympics, this forum is all i know about WTF so sorry if any ignorance slips through here. But as a student in TAGB ITF school i find my enjoyment from studying the art itself. Instead of the "kickboxing effect" WTF suffers from ie being a style focused on kicking seven shades out of the opponent as opposed to actual style or art.
Watching olympics the techniques looked initially terribly (i felt i could easily plant plenty of points on the black belts myself) but thinking about it getting connected by any one of those kicks would probably end the fight for me!
patterns kicked ass though.

[gemtkd]

Patterns do rock; and I agree with everything else you said too!! Though don't take olympics as all that WTF is; I know theres a lot more you don't see on TV

[ShadowWarrior]

Just wait until the ITF is in the Olympics! Then it will be awesome

[Tetsujin]

you could never compare WTF with ITF..there both taekwondo..the only difference is style..all I can say is never compare WTF with ITF 'cause there both TAE-KWON-DO..

[neryo_tkd]

and let everybody train what suits them better!

[Nick K]

Any news on punching to the head in WTF? One of the local schools in Dorset, England is now apparently saying this will be allowed in WTF sparring.

[New Guy]

WTF vs ITF :D

Well, actually I want to know how different are they, in terms of functionality... they are both kata-based arts, right? Do they have the same techniques with different names? People usually say WTF is olynpic BS and ITF is da bomb! :bang:

I myself is doing ITF at the moment, but I am considering to try out WTF as well... what would I feel? Would it be the same as if I go and try out Wing Chun? (I have had go and tried Wing Chun.)

[Gray]

In my opinion, ITF is better. But that's just my opinion. It seems a lot more... well, I dunno. WTF just uses that jerky Olympic battle armour :D

[oni_sensei]

They're on equal footing, IMHO. You'll learn nothing from either if you're not being taught correctly. Despite popular belief, a lot of ITF schools DON'T place more emphasis on handwork. A lot of ITF competitors also compete with their guard lowered, albeit not entirely like the high level WTF competitors (not that there's anything wrong with that).

[neryo_tkd]

i don't think that the punching will be introduced, but we'll see eventually.

[New Guy]

In my opinion, ITF is better. But that's just my opinion. It seems a lot more... well, I dunno. WTF just uses that jerky Olympic battle armour :D
But it does mean that you can punch harder, right?

[Slindsay]

They're on equal footing, IMHO. You'll learn nothing from either if you're not being taught correctly. Despite popular belief, a lot of ITF schools DON'T place more emphasis on handwork. A lot of ITF competitors also compete with their guard lowered, albeit not entirely like the high level WTF competitors (not that there's anything wrong with that).

Nothing wrong with fighting with you'r hands down? I would say theres a hell of a lot wrong with that!

Me personally, I think ITF may be slightly better than WTF for self defence. I have the damn hands down fighting stance ingrained in me, it only goes away when i do grappling. The problem is not so much that people keep their hands held low in a fight but that they dont realise just how high they should have them.

[oni_sensei]

I wasn't referring to fighting outside of competition. If the elite can win with their hands down, then they must be doing something right in competition. Therefore, I don't believe there's anything wrong with sparring hands-down.

TKDists aren't robots, those that know how to separate competition from reality understand the importance of a guard, and train it well.

My opinion is that ITF and WTF teach pretty much the same stuff, sinewave aside (let's not start THAT debate again). It's all there in their curriculums. This applies directly to self-defense as well. Can you honestly distinguish if someone is throwing a WTF roundhouse, ITF roundhouse or even an MT roundhouse in a fight?

Not all ITF schools emphasise handwork (or even teach good footwork), in fact, many are just as bad as a lot of WTF dojangs.

Choosing which is best out of ITF or WTF is like comparing a Toyota Corolla and a Holden Nova. At the core, they're the same stuff, different name.

[HwaRang]

oh course. all the kicks are the same as those in (shotokan) karate but its the application which makes the arts different.

one thing i will say against ITF (well mainly TAGB) is the way some instructors try to throw students through gradings as fast as they can to make black belts in 4 years.
thats just wrong. :cry:

[New Guy]

What sine wave debate? I tried search for it but can't find anything.

[Moosey]

oh course. all the kicks are the same as those in (shotokan) karate but its the application which makes the arts different.


Not exactly. The basis may be in shotokan, but TKD evolved apart and added more jumpy bits etc

[New Guy]

My opinion is that ITF and WTF teach pretty much the same stuff, sinewave aside (let's not start THAT debate again).
Do you have an url to the sine wave debate? I like to read about it.:D

It's all there in their curriculums. This applies directly to self-defense as well. Can you honestly distinguish if someone is throwing a WTF roundhouse, ITF roundhouse or even an MT roundhouse in a fight?
Though I have be training under ITF I was never taught the roundhouse... or maybe it is under a different name from my Dojang... either way, what is a roundhouse??? :confused:

[Mitch]

Do you have an url to the sine wave debate? I like to read about it.:D

Though I have be training under ITF I was never taught the roundhouse... or maybe it is under a different name from my Dojang... either way, what is a roundhouse??? :confused:

A recent Sine Wave thread:
Sine Wave (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40442&page=1&pp=15&highlight=sine+wave)

If you use the search function at the top of the page you'll find others too.

Roundhouse is a term used in other arts for turning kick (dollyo chagi).

oh course. all the kicks are the same as those in (shotokan) karate but its the application which makes the arts different.

I think there are several variants in TKD not taught (or certainly not commonly taught) in Shotokan, so my 1st Dan mate tells me anyway.

one thing i will say against ITF (well mainly TAGB) is the way some instructors try to throw students through gradings as fast as they can to make black belts in 4 years.
thats just wrong.

I agree wholeheartedly that students shouldn't be forced to grade or graded inappropriately and as a TAGB Instructor myself I certainly don't "throw my students through gradings".

Like all groups there are many individuals involved in the TAGB; it's a shame you seem to have had a bad experience with a TAGB Instructor, but they may have had valid reasons.

Cheers,
Mitch

[TKDragon]

I was discussing TKD with another TKD'er and he asked me what style(kwon) I trained under. I had to reply "I dunno". So I asked my Sabuhmnim what style of Taekwondo do we train. he answered... Taekwondo.

He went on to say our lineage is Chung Do Kwon but we all study TKD. I asked about ITF. He replied - It's TKD! There are things about ITF that people will feel are better in ITF and the same goes for WTF. We train under the WTF.

That was about it. No politics. No WTF is better because... Just simple facts. It is all TKD. If you want to go on felling that your Federation/Association is better than mine or his or hers then that if most definitely you perogative. Doesn't make it so.

I train under the WTF. I enjoy it. If the school was ITF I'd train under the ITF and I'd enjoy it. It's the TKD I enjoy. I wouldn't care which federation it was, just doing it is good enough for me.

[oni_sensei]

Do you have an url to the sine wave debate? I like to read about it.:D

Though I have be training under ITF I was never taught the roundhouse... or maybe it is under a different name from my Dojang... either way, what is a roundhouse??? :confused:

The sine wave debate is an ongoing argument just like dub/sub, instep/shin, 9mm vs .45ACP, PS2/XBox/GameCube. It's one of those stupid topics that really boils down to personal opinion.

In ITF, the roundhouse is referred to as the turning kick (dollyo chagi).

[TKDragon]

Here's two demonstrations for Twimyo jirugi. Tell me what the difference is, and what is true to both of them.
Long watch btw, and actually quite enjoyable both of them. :)

Demo 1 part 1 (http://www.freefree.co.kr/taekwon/north_exhibition_1.wmv)
Demo 1 part 2 (http://www.freefree.co.kr/taekwon/north_exhibition_2.wmv)

Demo 2 part 1 (http://www.freefree.co.kr/taekwon/south_exhibition_1.wmv)
Demo 2 part 2 (http://www.freefree.co.kr/taekwon/south_exhibition_2.wmv)

Hey there Artikon,

I know your post is really old and I'm new here but the links you have for those demos are 404. Do you know anywhere else I could get a look at them?

Thx.

[Artikon]

Hey TKDdragon . . . I don't know where else you can get those videos. I did save them to my hard drive so I do have copies of them. Altogether you're looking at just about 240megs for files size, so I figure email is out of the question :D

[TKDragon]

Hey TKDdragon . . . I don't know where else you can get those videos. I did save them to my hard drive so I do have copies of them. Altogether you're looking at just about 240megs for files size, so I figure email is out of the question :D

Hey Artikon,

Wow, 240 megs is alot. Thanks anyway. By the reactions they sounded pretty wicked.

[HwaRang]

hey, erm... not to sound stupid or anything.
but the poll at the top of the page currently say 70% for ITF and 40% fro WTF.
that makes 110% :confused:

[New Guy]

Because it is multiple choice...

[New Guy]

May I ask if www.itf-admin.com is the official ITF site? I.E. it speaks for ITF?

I just realised that my school is not listed in it, therefore it is not official... and there are no known official ITF school in my town... what does that mean? Does it matter?

[Tetsujin]

How many times must I see someone which org is better WTF or ITF..I just wanna say that whether it's ITF or WTF it doesnt matter as long as your a tkd jin..that's all that matters..

[New Guy]

You are talking about my question or the poll?

[miles]

With all due respect to the pollster, they are both Taekwondo.

It is sort of like asking, which is better for someone: apple juice or orange juice?

If the goal is to be a better person physically, mentally, and spiritually, what difference is the avenue for the journey?

Miles

[New Guy]

Well, apple is slightly better for teeth and orange has slightly more Vitamin C.

That is the kind of response the pollster was looking for anyway...

[HwaRang]

If the goal is to be a better person physically, mentally, and spiritually, what difference is the avenue for the journey?

Miles

well if you want to get existentialist then ok. :Angel:
But, if our goal is to be a better person in every aspect, then surely that is a goal you never acheive.
For you can always acheive better in at least one of those "tenets".

so if we spend our entire life on this avenue constantly getting closer - but never upon - this goal, then the avenue itself becomes quite important.

...

and back onto topic before this post is deleted :rolleyes:

[I.T.F.Girl]

May I ask if www.itf-admin.com is the official ITF site? I.E. it speaks for ITF?

I just realised that my school is not listed in it, therefore it is not official... and there are no known official ITF school in my town... what does that mean? Does it matter?


NO...NO... :eek: That website is from Choi Jung Hwa. He's the General Choi's son. He separeted from the real and only official I.T.F. before General death. Now this is the real I.T.F. by LAW web page. http://www.tkd-itf.org here is all the info. you need to know about President mesage and all that had happend. :p

[New Guy]

Man this is CONFUSING! What is the difference? Does it matter if my club is with ITF?