Beginning HKD

[swampthing500]

what are some good pointers for a person looking in to hkd?
ive done TKD for about 3 1/2 years and im looking for something more complete. Is HKD a good choice? Is there anything athome i can do to better prepare myself for it? Any excercises or drills?

thanks

[wild_pitch]

There is no doubt that hapkido has the ability to be very well rounded practical martial art. really how much so just depends on the school and teachers you can find.

here is a long discussion that my instructor keith stewart (shadow warrior) wrote about what to look for in a hapkido school. it does get fairly heated but there is a lot of good info in there.

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5506

here is a fairly long thread about the differences between hapkido and TKD.

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4280

take a look through these threads there is a lot of great information in them. and if you have any other question feel free to come back, or tack them on the end of either of the above discussions.

[Yudanja]

what are some good pointers for a person looking in to hkd?
ive done TKD for about 3 1/2 years and im looking for something more complete. Is HKD a good choice? Is there anything athome i can do to better prepare myself for it? Any excercises or drills?

thanks

Can you define "more complete" ?? Not to start any arguments or anything. I was just wondering what you meant by that. I find at least the style of TKD i teach and the way I have been taught it is pretty well rounded. Taekwon-Do contains closed hand strikes, open hand strikes, elbow strikes, knee strikes, kicking, kicking from the ground, jump/flying kicking, dodging, parrying, open hand blocks, closed hand blocks, trapping blocks, basic joint-locks, takedowns, leg sweeps...... Taekwon-Do, at least if taught and applied correctly is a very complete system.

[blessed_samurai]

Typically a Tkd school will not have throws and sweeps and such things.

[Yudanja]

Typically a Tkd school will not have throws and sweeps and such things.

typically....AND...unfortunately

[wild_pitch]

hapkido also generally has integrated joint manipulation and grappling.

typically....AND...unfortunately

[Yudanja]

hapkido also generally has integrated joint manipulation and grappling.

True. Grappling has its place.. its just never been part of TKD.

[traz]

Since you know TKD, it'll help since the HKD kicks are similar. If you're looking for something more complete to add to your tkd, I'd definitely suggest HKD if there's a solid school accessible to you.

[Kosh]

I think you can look at the differences in terms of techniques but they vary. The underlying principals seem common though. If someone hassles you and you kick them in the head, you get in trouble...if you use HKD, 'they just fell over officer' (GM Jin Pal).

[Thomas]

Take a look at the thread cited earlier, especially the "Hapkjido MacDojang" one... great stuff

For me, I find that TKD and Hapkido complement each other. I like the linear, powerful striking and greta footowrk of TKD and I like the controlling/escorting technqiues and breakfalls of Hapkido. We also get into ground technqiues and have a huge amount of aoptions in our "level of force of responses" by training in both arts.

[shadow warrior]

ALL trapping, twisitng (joint lock), controlling and arrest techniques were added to the ITF skill sets by Hapkido Master Chung Kee Tae at the request of General Choi when he came to Canada in the early 1970's. They were included in the ITF texbook written by General Choi.

Although these techniques came from Hapkido, they have lost much of their underlying dynamics during the decades that they have been taught by Tae Kwon Do Masters.

2nd generation Hapkido Masters from Korea (and some of their direct students), are the actual source of most of the more traditional, effective Hapkido today.

Nothing against Tae Kwon Do, but it is Hapkido which is used by the bodyguards at the Blue House since the 1960's.

Keith Stewart
Head Instructor
East West Hapkido

[Yudanja]

Nothing against Tae Kwon Do, but it is Hapkido which is used by the bodyguards at the Blue House since the 1960's.

Keith Stewart
Head Instructor
East West Hapkido

What exactly....is the Blue House ???

[Trae]

Sung Mahn Rhee's Presidential Bodyguard, outside the "blue house" dojang after class. The 'blue house' was equilivant to our 'white house' as presidential headquarters. The dojang was for the presidential bodyguards, security, and special police training. The sign over the door reads "Sangmoo Kwan" meaning "Martial spirit training hall"


Source: http://kimsookarate.com/gallery-old-days/58_blueHouse/blueHouse.htm


Google :)

[Yudanja]

Nothing against Tae Kwon Do, but it is Hapkido which is used by the bodyguards at the Blue House since the 1960's.



I was reading somewhere yesterday that the "Blue House" guards came from all martial-arts walks of life...Hapkido, Taekwon-Do, Karate, etc.... I think the interview was with Ji Han Jae....

[blessed_samurai]

True. Grappling has its place.. its just never been part of TKD.

The JiDoKwan school (at least those that hold to their traditions) will include grappling into their cirriculum in a Yudo/Judo style kind of way.

[shadow warrior]

The history of Hapkido has everything a good pot boiler needs, including oceans of controversy related to every aspect since its name appeared. There are two major lineages eminating from GM Choi Young Sul and GM Jae Han Ji. On a few occassions the two lineages have crossed paths later through a few second generation Masters who trained for various periods of time under both practitioners.

It is generally accepted that: "GM Ji was the Head Instructor for the Presidential bodyguards and special police units until the late 70's when the attempted assasination of the South Korean President and the subsequent political fallout landed GM Ji in jail. He got out after about one year under somewhat disputed circumstances and has never returned to Korea."

Whatever the backround of potential bodyguards was, they were ALLl trained in Hapkido by direct students of and/or GM Ji himself. That was the official style taught and employed. Numerous second generation Hapkido Masters were part of that group from the mid to late 60's. It is still the style of many elite Korean government units.

Tae Kwon Do is generally recognized as a sport oriented, particularly its reliance on snap kicking and point fighting. Root type Hapkido is recognized for self defence and in addition, some lineages for their dynamic freefighting skill sets.

Although some aspects of Hapkido were introduced into the ITF by General Choi utilizing Master Chung Kee Tae's Hapkido skills, it produced mixed results in terms of desemination, because so few of the Tae Kwon Do Masters ever acheived a reasonable level of expertise. Almost none of the higher degree ITF black belts who came to visit Master Chung or test under General Choi here in Canada through the 70' and early 80's could demonstrate even a basic understanding of dynamic twisting. These skill sets were not even significantly tested during ITF Dan promotional exams held by General Choi in Canada. Forms, one step, three step, sparring and kicking were the focus elements. I know because I witnessed numerous examples of these events.

Coming to Hapkido from Tae Kwon Do seems like a good idea to many people, but from my eperience, it is much easier to train people if they have a martial arts backround in Yudo (Judo) or Chi Gung (Tai Chi). If you came from a Tae Kwon Do backround and the Hapkido school where you are training does NOT change your kicking mechanics..it is not a Hapkido "rooted" school. IMHO.

K. Stewart

[Yudanja]

Tae Kwon Do is generally recognized as a sport oriented, particularly its reliance on snap kicking and point fighting. Root type Hapkido is recognized for self defence and in addition, some lineages for their dynamic freefighting skill sets.

Although some aspects of Hapkido were introduced into the ITF by General Choi utilizing Master Chung Kee Tae's Hapkido skills, it produced mixed results in terms of desemination, because so few of the Tae Kwon Do Masters ever acheived a reasonable level of expertise. Almost none of the higher degree ITF black belts who came to visit Master Chung or test under General Choi here in Canada through the 70' and early 80's could demonstrate even a basic understanding of dynamic twisting. These skill sets were not even significantly tested during ITF Dan promotional exams held by General Choi in Canada. Forms, one step, three step, sparring and kicking were the focus elements. I know because I witnessed numerous examples of these events.

Coming to Hapkido from Tae Kwon Do seems like a good idea to many people, but from my eperience, it is much easier to train people if they have a martial arts backround in Yudo (Judo) or Chi Gung (Tai Chi). If you came from a Tae Kwon Do backround and the Hapkido school where you are training does NOT change your kicking mechanics..it is not a Hapkido "rooted" school. IMHO.

K. Stewart

It is a shame that Taekwon-Do is viewed as a sport by most. I dont feel I am practicing a sport at all. As far as snap kicking.. we only have 2 that i know of.. front snap kick and a side snap kick.. the rest of a kicks are done with full hip action and are thrust kicks..(other than the spinning and or jump kicks of course)....

My Instructors Master (Young Bo Kong) passed down many joint-locking and throwing techniques to my Instructor.. which in turned he taught us. I dont feel I have to turn to Hapkido or any other art for that matter to be fulfilled.

I like forms practice... i dont teach "step-sparring" anymore.... we stopped using 1,2 and 3 step sparring a long time ago in my Instructor's Dojang.. replaced them with more realistic self-defense training.

No knocking Hapkido at all. I just think that its a shame that a lot of TKD instructors dont teach the complete art....

[shadow warrior]

I like forms practice... i dont teach "step-sparring" anymore.... we stopped using 1,2 and 3 step sparring a long time ago in my Instructor's Dojang.. replaced them with more realistic self-defense training.

No knocking Hapkido at all. I just think that its a shame that a lot of TKD instructors dont teach the complete art....[/QUOTE]

I don't know if you realize it or not but, by not teaching step sparring anymore you are not teaching the complete art of TKD yourself. Whether its ITF, WTF, ATF or whatever. This might be considered evolution by some and dilution by others, its all a matter of your own experiences and perceptions.


This is one of the reasons which has been cited by root purists why Hapkido has become so diluted in some circles because instructors significantly change that which was taught to them.

As far as snap kicking is concerned; if you lift your leg with your quad muscles while executing such kicks as front, side or round and retract using your hamstrings..that is snap based mechanics..irreguardless of hip involvement..see thread related to different kicking mechanics..

Tae Kwon Do is the national "sport" of Korea that is a fact.

Yes...there are aspects which can be applied in self defence..but that is not its primary focus in almost all organizations and schools which teach that style. That is why it is a style commercially taught to young people..the risk of injury is quite low, compared to styles which utilize weigh transfer, open field dynamic joint manipulation techniques. Hapkido is NOT the only style to employ explosive joint locking techniques.

Hapkido is just a name for a diversified set of skills..it is the lineage of the instructor which is much more important aspect..not the degree or other inflated rank claims..but who taught them..and what generation Hapkido Masters were they..see Hapkido info - net for lineage charts..

K. Stewart

[Yudanja]

I don't know if you realize it or not but, by not teaching step sparring anymore you are not teaching the complete art of TKD yourself. Whether its ITF, WTF, ATF or whatever. This might be considered evolution by some and dilution by others, its all a matter of your own experiences and perceptions.

This was from my Instructors personal experience teaching at the FBI academy. He felt that more realistic self-defense training would be more suitable than the old 1-2 or 3 step self-defense methods. So yes that would be an evolution in my eyes....


As far as snap kicking is concerned; if you lift your leg with your quad muscles while executing such kicks as front, side or round and retract using your hamstrings..that is snap based mechanics..irreguardless of hip involvement..see thread related to different kicking mechanics..

I'm not going to get into kicking mechanics :) We kick in so many ways. Taekwon-Do kicking is no better than Hapkido kicking or vice-versa. Many of the kicks i teach/learn use a lot of follow thru and rolling of the hips and dropping into the kick. There are some that use "snapping" action as you call it.


Tae Kwon Do is the national "sport" of Korea that is a fact.

WTF/Kukkiwon Taekwondo is the national "sport" of South Korea.. yes. But if you want to argue semantics... ITF Taekwon-Do is the national martial-ART of North Korea... really doesnt matter to me how the South Koreans see TKD. They developed Taekwondo into sport since the 1970's. What I do is not South Korean TKD. Not that it matters... as there are a lot of WTF practitioners who also do not practice TKD as a sport.

[tkdhkddave]

Almost forgot the question after reading alll the posts! anyway this is only my own opinion but. If you can find someone who teaches taekwon-do like Mr Hartsock then I think you would do pretty well as in my own opinion too many people just do tkd going through patterns, sparring 1-3 step etc and that's all, which is really just scrtaching the surface as I think it's a whole system if you want it to be, just got to find the right instructor which isn't easy.

However in hapkido the techniques just seem to be there, there's no studying patterns (most cases not all) as the techniques are there right away plus they are done with 1 or more partners, so you don't need to decode patterns to understand your art which seems to put it generally on a more practicle level, you also seem to have a better understanding of what your chosen technique will do as you perform it on a partner and they in turn do it on you.

I also think that you need a good grounding from good unbiased instructors in both styles before you really can make an informed opinion, regardless of your grade in either A-tkd or B-hkd , this comment is not directed at anyone by the way! in anwser to the origanal question asked I think you have served a reasnable amount of time to get a good idea of what tkd has to offer which should serve you well in hkd, however the paradox is I would also say forget what you have learnt (to some degree) and "empty your cup" excuse the expression! and be prepared to learn all over again (unless you go to a crap hkd school).

This is only what I have discovered so far, and is only my opinion, for others it may differ. One thing is for sure is that they complemant each other very well.