Dealing with the fear of a fight?

[Sephiroth]

If someone is about to attack you, how do you deal with the fear to make you fight back at your best?

[Stuart H]

If someone is about to attack you, how do you deal with the fear to make you fight back at your best?
Take a look at Geoff Thompson's website. Also you could have a look at Russell Stutely's BAR video.

[Shadow_of_Evil]

How to deal with fear...hmm.
Fear shouldn't be a problem when someone actually attacks you. If someone is starting a fight with you then fear can set in but the momment you're attacked you body generaly expells the fear and turns it into instinctive attacks.

I've been in plenty of street fights and havn't been afraid or worried from the momment the first attack is made, it's like your brain has a self-defence mechnanism that pushes everything out of your mind except blocking, attacking, dodging etc.

[ubermint]

In terms of preparation, it's fairly easy.

Simply fight a lot in class, with real contact.

[Rebel Wado]

If someone is about to attack you, how do you deal with the fear to make you fight back at your best?

Get religious
:Angel:

If you believe in a higher power, it can help to have the belief that you are in that time and place for a reason. Not to offend anyone, but you could believe that "God put you there for a reason, so make the best of it." I'm not saying to promote any one religion over another or anything like that, what I am saying is that if you accept that you are there in that situation for a reason, then that can help deal with fear.

Another way of dealing with fear is to have a plan. Having a plan takes your mind off of uncertainty. Being unsure of something tends to make people think of the worst. Of course, there is a saying that everyone has a plan until they are punched in the face, so don't overthink the situation. By plan it means that before you get into a situation, go over it in your mind and sort of decide what you are willing to do and when you will fight. For instance, I might just hand my money over to a robber and run, but if that person tries to get me in a car then I have decided to fight them because the statistics say that criminals that can drive you away to some remote location are very likely going to kill you and there won't be anyone around to help you. These are just examples, you have to come up with your own reasons for what you are willing to do.

Another is to have a purpose for why you fight. Many people can be considered "sheep" in this world, if you know what a sheep acts like, they will only put up an effort to fight if they fear for their own safety. Sheep are fine, go about their lives in a productive manner, but when it comes to fighting what you want to be is that wolf in sheeps clothing. Bring out the tiger inside of you if you have what it takes. It helps some to think of what they might do if a loved one (wife, son, daughter, husband, etc.) were being attacked, what would you do? Yes you would be afraid, but many would fight, do something, not just stand there and do nothing. This is the first step in understanding the never give up attitude that might keep you alive in the streets.

In all, understand that it is better to avoid fighting as people will get hurt, or maybe worse. But if you do feel the fear coming, understand the difference between fear and panic. Fear you can use to help you, get angry, go insane, whatever, you can deal with fear and use it as a motivator that there is a threat and to take action to get away or fight. Panic, however, is no good. Train and visualize potential bad situations so that you have a plan. If you panic, you are no good to yourself or anyone around you.

Don't panic, but fear is natural and okay.

[Sephiroth]

Wow rebel, that was an impressive piece of writing!

[samharber]

get Cato to jump out of the closet at unexpected times and attack you.

[spiff]

since i was 7 i've played rugby. i reckon it is the constant fear of serious injury coupled with the adrenaline of the sport that tends to lead towards an ability to go against that voice inside. i have rarely met a rugby player who who hasn't been of a mindset to cope very well with the fear of a fight.
what MA cannot prepare you for there's probably another sport that can

[Bob1770]

Believe in yourself, believe in your instructor, train hard, and train often. I believe that self confidence and proper and hard training is the answer. If you train with random, full power and realistic attacks, not a coreographed dance session, you will know how to react from instinct, rather than thought. I think that the bad person trying to hurt you will win if you have spend time thinking about a counter to their attacks. Not to offend anyone, but leaving religion out of everything makes life make more sence. The only "higher power" that exists so far as I am concerned exists only in the minds of people who don't have the will power to believe in themselves and others who they trust. It's all in your mind, and if you were raised to believe that there is a god, and this helps you achieve your goals, then go with it. Whatever works for you. Fear is a natural response, this is where advanced "live" training will help out. If you are working out and sparring from two feet away without contact, your wasting your time, find a new instructor who takes your training seriously.

[Sandy]

Take a look at Geoff Thompson's website. Also you could have a look at Russell Stutely's BAR video.

I second Geoff Thompson. He's got some excellent books on fear and self-protection, such as Dead or Alive. See www.geoffthompson.com He does very occasional seminars, which I've found really excellent.

In the same vein, check out the British Combat Association at www.peterconsterdine.com Peter and Geoff co-run the British Combat Association and Peter's also writen some excellent books, notably Streetwise. If you're in the UK, joining the British Combat Association could give you access to training and events that would help with the psychological and reality sides, as well as relevant articles in their newsletter.

I believe Dennis Martin occasionally does Mindset seminars: http://www.cqbservices.com/

PS Welsh Warrior: What's Russell Stutely's BAR video like? What does it cover? Where can you buy a copy?

[mididoctors]

make a decision...

being scared is ok

I used to bend my knees as a catch all first technique in ANY fight as it was a gateway I stepped thru the place the other side of freezing on the spot.. I am and was not a natural born fighter but I did fight. bending your knees and going into stance helps you stay upright anyway and is a fairly gross simple and useful thing to do.

i suspect each person has to deal with stuff in a rather unique and personnel way, some people are not scared at all by fighting but then there is likley to be something somewhere that does scare them

Boris
london

[NaughtyKnight]

Go to www.topsecrettraining.com. I know it looks like bull crap but trust me. I got the dvd set and it really helps with fear, it reprograms you fight of flee mechanism.

[TheMightyMcClaw]

I think that sparring helps overcome some of the psychological aspects of a fight. Its difficult not to turn and close your eyes when someone's barreling down on you, whether the gloves are on or off.
As for the fear of injury... I have little first-hand combat experience, but I once heard an old martial artist who's had a LOT of it (he used to be a tad bit mean) talk about defending a knife. His words were something along the following: When fighting an attacker with a knife, you have to except that you might get cut. You might have to go to the hospital and get stiches. But, you are NOT going to die. When you're life is threatened, injury, pain, legal reprecussions, and whathaveyou are minor threats.
I hope that can help somewhat.

[mystererae]

I just try to have a sense of what I need to do and the self-confidence that I've trained hard and know how to carry it out.

In situations where I've felt I was in danger, I found it necessary to accept death or injury in my mind as an inevitability so that I could face it.

[NaughtyKnight]

Animals (including humans) protect others more than they would protect themselves. Look at birds for example. If you are walking near there nest they will probably fly away, but if there are baby birds in that nest, you will get the crap swooped out of you.

Picture that your walking with a loved one (children, mother, father etc) picture yourself laughing and enjoying the moment together. Now picture someone trying to hurt your loved one while you watch. You will get very, very angry. Picture them getting really hurt. Now go to your heavy bag and picture that person trying to attack you or your loved one again. Focus all your energy on destroy that person. The adrenalin rush will be the most powerful you will ever feel.

Train like this, and if you are ever attacked on the street, picture that you are defending a loved one.

Humans are not as resistant to there own demise as they are to a loved one. Try this training method out some time.

[Sandy]

Now go to your heavy bag and picture that person trying to attack you or your loved one again.

To add to this, I would suggest reading 'Streetwise' by Peter Consterdine (including the section on Action Triggers, dealing with fear, etc):
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1873475527/qid%3D1107002117/026-9234726-2760400

... If you buy it, remember to do so via Amazon on MAP!

[Pete Ticali]

THere are many good points here.
I think knightcommander has brought up a valid methodology.

Although we don't make it the center of our day, I believe we all have a purpose to our lives. If you know yours, then always realize that you must not let anything prevent its quest. Know in your heart that fear is just a natural way for your body to arrouse the ki/chi in you and your fear is really your body telling you it is ready to do whatever you deem necessary.

Your quest can be to live with someone you love, or raise your child, or save the world. Whatever you believe it to be, it will be your motivation to see tomorrow.

We think in terms of a lifetime, but we live in the moment, one breath after the other. Never worry about the moment. Your training to be ready, so keep training and the moment will take care of itself.

Challenge yourself now! Don't wait until there are no options. When the moment comes know that you have expected all along and you are there on your terms.

Pete Ticali

[NaughtyKnight]

Great post :D

Fear is a very important emotion, and it can be used to help you. If you scared of a situation you will be more careful, if your scared of doing something really stupid that might get you killed, you wont do it.

The most important use for fear is if you need to defend yourself. You already have everything you need to defend yourself. Humans have 3 things that come naturally, eating, fighting and shagging. :D

Harness your fear and you will do fine.

[TkdWarrior]

Animals (including humans) protect others more than they would protect themselves. Look at birds for example. If you are walking near there nest they will probably fly away, but if there are baby birds in that nest, you will get the crap swooped out of you.
That is very important... Nature won't allow the animals of the sames species killing themselves... they don't even maim themselves... look at 2 lions fighting... they fight with their paws to their face... max injury goes is Eye....
but when they are fighting for some other animal.. they go for directly to throat instant death... minimizing their own death...

Think Nature...Think Animal... Think You..
-TkdWarrior-

[madfrank]

How to deal with fear...hmm.
Fear shouldn't be a problem when someone actually attacks you. If someone is starting a fight with you then fear can set in but the momment you're attacked you body generaly expells the fear and turns it into instinctive attacks.

I've been in plenty of street fights and havn't been afraid or worried from the momment the first attack is made, it's like your brain has a self-defence mechnanism that pushes everything out of your mind except blocking, attacking, dodging etc.


Fear is a natural instinct and one we canot eradicate but one we have to learn to deal with.

Feel the fear and do it anyway.

If you have had several fights and never felt fear,You must be dead as you obviously dont have an autonomic nervous system.:)



MF

[NaughtyKnight]

Fear is a natural instinct and one we canot eradicate but one we have to learn to deal with.

Feel the fear and do it anyway.

If you have had several fights and never felt fear,You must be dead as you obviously dont have an autonomic nervous system.:)



MF

Either that or a complete nutter.

[sliver]

Fear is the product of your imagination running wild, frequently on an unconscious level predicting the worst possible of outcomes to a stressful situation such as an impending fight. Someone mentioned earlier that once in action, fear frequently evaporates. This is exactly correct, because the ethereal monstrosities of your imagination are replaced with the reality of the fight. In fact the fight itself is frequently much less crippling and "scary" than the fear of the fight. The best way I've found to deal with fear is to take charge of it, and control it. In your martial arts training you learn just that: control. We learn to control our bodies through our training regimen. We learn to control our breathing through various exercises. Unfortunately, few instructors teach one how to control their fear. Even harder than knowing how to control it is practicing controlling fear...you simply can not simulate fear. You either believe you are in danger or you don't. You either are afraid or you aren't. The only time you can truly practice controlling your fear is when you're genuinely afraid (and usually there's a good reason for your fear so you may not have the mind to practice this skill). What you can do ahead of time is understand the causes of fear, the symptoms of fear and how to control fear. The ultimate goal is to be able to act as though you were not in fear at all, and therefore have all your skills and wits about you. Once you know how to control fear, even if you have it, it will not necessarily hamper you.

1. The causes of fear.

Fear is a natural response, and the first step of the fight or flight chain to any highly stressful situation. Basically, fear is the first and highest brain-function related step of the fight or flight chain: recognition of danger. Biologically, things you may not normally think of as "scary" trigger the fear response. A good example is a narrowly avoided car wreck. Ever been through that? You respond instantly and instinctively at the moment, but paradoxically, once you're out of danger the fear reaction kicks in and the symptoms of fear (discussed next) appear. Why? Once the fear response is triggered, it can't really be stopped, but in the case of a near miss in a car, the fear trigger and your instinctual response to it passed before the fear could manifest. You reacted to the danger before you even consciously recognized it. In the context of self defense, fear is typically triggered by a threat of some sort from someone you believe could cause you bodily harm. I realize this sounds facile, but recognizing a situation that sets off the fear trigger is the first step to early recognition (and therefore control) of your fear. The sooner you recognize fear, the easier it is to take control of the biological chain reaction that will ensue and tip the odds in your favor.

2. The symptoms of fear.

Fear, being the emotional component of a biological response manifests in a number of predictable and recognizable ways, as well as a few that are unique to the individual. The first response is almost always a tensing of every muscle in the body and the shallowing of the breath. This is perhaps one of the most detrimental responses to the martial artist. Martial arts technique does not flow, and you reactions can not be as fast when your muscles are too tense. Further, shallow breathing does not allow enough oxygen to the muscles to allow for optimal power, speed and performance. The level of tension caused by fear was engineered by nature to help us resist the initial onslaught of whatever is causing the fear. The way the story went in "caveman times" when this reaction was evolved would be you saw a bull moose, bull moose then saw you and charged you. You instantly tense up and expel as much air from your body as possible to make you a more solid unit and protect your internal organs from damage as much as possible. Unfortunately, things in the modern world tend not to go the way they did in "caveman times" so this particular reaction is frequently more of an impediment than a benefit. The second link in the fight or flight chain heralded by fear is your adrenal gland kicks into action and secretes adrenaline into your blood stream. This has a number of effects: your heart begins to race, your breathing speeds up, your muscles are suddenly capable of feats an order of magnitude greater than what they are normally. Adrenaline was, and still is the great life saver of biology. Without it, humanity may have never survived the stone age. On adrenaline you hit harder, run faster and process more oxygen (by virtue of your diaphragm muscle working on adrenaline and your heart muscle beating faster) than you do at any other time in your life. At the same time adrenaline starts flowing through your bloodstream, several other hormones begin their part of the chain to help save your life. Your pain response is impeded. Those in real life self defense situations as well as soldiers on the field of combat frequently don't even realize they've been wounded until after the immediate danger is over. This also boosts your muscles ability to function at their ultimate capacity: Under normal circumstances, your body has mechanisms built in to prevent you from using your muscles to the point at which they damage themselves. Once the flight or fight response kicks in, that safety mechanism turns off and you can lift, run and punch to a capacity that can actually damage your own muscles. In addition to all of the above, your perception of time slows down. Ever take an unexpected fall, and feel like you were falling in slow motion? That's just another wonderful part of the fight or flight response system. No, time isn't actually moving any slower, what's happening is your reflexes are suddenly much faster, and by comparison everything else seems to move in slow motion. To relate this all back to cave man times, if the first part of the fight or flight response chain (tense and exhale) proved unnecessary (the bull moose was far enough away you had a chance to run) the second part of the chain would give you a descent chance of getting away from said angry moose. You would run away faster than you ever could before aided by adrenaline enhanced muscles. If the moose did manage to get a horn into you before you got away, the dampened pain response would allow you to get up, and keep running despite the damage. Unfortunately, once again, the script nowadays is different from the script in caveman times. Frequently now the source of your fear (say a threatening thug) won't attack right away, and running may not be an option for some reason. Thugs by their nature want to lord their "superiority" over their prey. Well, too bad for the prey, adrenaline and it's accompanying host of hormones won't wait around to be used, and if you don't do something with them, they start causing very negative reactions. You tense even more, the hormone enhanced muscles now being capable of MUCH greater tension, you feel sick to your stomach from the build up, and subsequent disuse of these hormones. Your limbs begin to twitch from the tension, you loose fine motor control, you may feel weak from your muscles tiring themselves out, your vision may blur (another muscle falling victim to having hormones and nothing to do with them) and your chest may feel constricted and it may be hard to breathe. Lastly your ability to focus on other events and persons/animals other than the object of the fear diminishes. This was originally intended to keep you paying attention to what was important to save your life, but can frequently work against you. Not good to get distracted by a shiny rock when you're being chased by bullwinkle on a bad day. However, very good to be able to notice if thug boy has friends lurking around waiting to join the fun. Other reactions I won't get into as deeply will likely include your mouth going dry (hormone reaction), inability to articulate (constriction of lung capacity and inability to focus), uncontrolled urination (when being chased by the evil bullwinkle the contents of your bladder would just slow you down, and a sudden powerful impact with a full bladder can easily cause it to rupture. This would lead to septic shock and death so this reaction was very life preserving. Interestingly ruptured bladders happen quite frequently in car wrecks, even with seatbelts. Fortunately we have better medical technology to deal with it now days. The moral here would be always empty your bladder before you drive I suppose). And uncontrolled bowl movement for the same reasons as uncontrolled urination. There are others that may or may not happen (or may not be noticed with this sudden rush of sensation) on an individual and case by case basis.

3. Controlling fear

And now the real self defense technology: how to control your fear now that you understand it. First, you must recognize fear. The sooner in the chain you recognize it, the easier it will be to control. Ideally you recognize it at the fear trigger: you see the thug bearing down on you, and realize this is a fear situation, and begin to manage the response immediately. The second step is now that you know the symptoms, and generally what order they will occur in, you consciously control them rather than letting your autonomic response mechanisms run amok. Once you begin to tense up, and your breathing shallows (before this happens ideally) force yourself to recognize the fear response and breath at a normal controlled rate. If you are lucky enough to have a teacher who trains you in dynamic meditation, USE IT! Control of breath is essential to controlling the rest of the chain reaction. Now that you're breathing normally again, and not hyper or hypo ventilating, focus on keeping your muscles loose, and paying attention to the whole situation around you. Be cognizant of your muscles, feel where there is tension in them and consciously release it. If you have been trained in kinematic awareness this should be fairly easy for you, if you haven't, I would suggest this simple exercise to help you develop better body awareness: Lay flat on the floor with your arms at your sides and close your eyes. Keep your breathing even and regular throughout this exercise. Focus on the muscles in your face. Feel where there is any tension, and consciously relax them. Once you have your face relaxed, move onto your scalp (yes, your scalp) and neck, and do the same thing, consciously cause these muscles to relax. Go one section at a time through your whole body this way, from head down to feet, and back up again. Don't worry about time, take as long as it takes, and don't let yourself fall asleep. Congratulations, you've just had your first consciously guided deep relax. If you do this every day, not only will you have less negative effects of stress and more energy, you'll get quicker at it, recognizing tension and controlling it more easily. Ok, that aside, back to our thug. You recognized him and that this is a fear response. You seized conscious control of the reaction, you regulated your breathing to an even moderate rate, and you consciously relaxed the tension in your body. You are now in a much better state to fight if you have to as you aren't starting in oxygen debt or with your muscles fighting themselves. Now, don't allow your awareness to shrink. Quickly scan the surrounding area and assess the situation. Are there more than one assailant coming at you? Are there others lurking nearby? Is your assailant armed? You may notice I don't put this issue first. If he's causing a fear reaction, he's already dangerous. It's better to be aware of what else is going on first before you worry about him having a weapon as this will tend to cause to you to fixate on him and loose control of your focus. Are there any people in the area that may be of assistance to you (cops, security officers, bouncers, anyone in a uniform, someone with a cell phone to call police with). What' is the geography of the situation? Where are your exits, what angles can he come at you from, is there a quicker way of loosing him? Above all, DON'T let yourself get cornered. Once you've taken stock of the situation DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! Don't wait around for him to get there and threaten you! Keep him in your line of vision and walk away using the best escape route. Lacking that get to an area he's least likely to cause you trouble. Lacking that put a barrier between you hand him that will be difficult for him to work around. Lacking that, once it's clear he intends to give you a hard time POP HIM FIRST and quickly run away! Yes, you heard me right, and yes, I'm putting my asbestos underwear on and preparing to be flamed from all quarters, but if you feel you are in imminent danger, hit you attacker first and use his moment of surprise to get away. If you are in reasonably good control of your fear reaction and still have your wits and fine motor control, a good gouge to the eyes, or strong strike to the solar plexus can work wonders and buy you valuable time. For those of you worried about the legal repercussions, I say only this: I would rather be tried by twelve than carried by four. Finally, once you have put some distance between you and your would be attacker, keep running! You don't know how motivated they are to follow you, but I'm quite sure you're more motivated to not let them have their way. Once you are reasonably safe, call the police and relate the incident to them, typically they will at least put a patrol in the area and this may deter the thugs from further harassing you.

There is much more to this, such as understanding the predator/prey mentalities and how to avoid these situations in the first place, but I’m going to stop here as this post is already ungodly long. For those of you who had the wherewithal to read the whole thing, I hope you find it useful. Be well, and happy training!

[Johnno]

A lot of people are referring to 'fear' to describe the effects of the adrenalin rush that we experience when we are in a situation which looks like developing into a fight.

People experience this in different ways, but typical sympoms are sweaty hands, shaking hands or legs, a dry mouth, the need to take a leak, tunnel vision. We mistake these symptoms for fear, but really they are the effects of adrenalin, as our body prepares itself for action: 'fight or flight'. Recognising that this is NOT fear is the first step to take. The second step is to learn to cope with the adrenalin rush so that it doesn't make us freeze.

As MA'ists, sparring is probably the best practise for learning to manage the adrenalin rush.

[jome]

than about 1/2 second. Dealing with the untrained is like swatting a fly. You will never have to fight a trained man (unless you are the a hole). It's very hard for a holes to get really skilled. the same lack of self discipline that makes them a holes makes attaining real skill almost impossible.

[JayKayD]

Thats not strictly true as a lot of 'a holes' get into fights on a regular basis and so tend to be pretty good at it. It can be dangerous to think of it as being like swatting a fly as you put it.

[gray fox]

Fear can sometimes be a good thing. If we walked around thinking that we were invincible we could easily find ourselfs six feet deep. 'Govern your fear and anger and take control of your destiny'. I think that quotes from Tekken, please correct me if Im wrong.

[Punchy]

Get angry. They have no right to do this to you!

[mai tai]

That is very important... Nature won't allow the animals of the sames species killing themselves... they don't even maim themselves... look at 2 lions fighting... they fight with their paws to their face... max injury goes is Eye....
but when they are fighting for some other animal.. they go for directly to throat instant death... minimizing their own death...

Think Nature...Think Animal... Think You..
-TkdWarrior-


dude this is not a flame.and i dont mean to be disrespectful but you dont know much about animals. i dont know if is lack of knowlege, lack or experence, or if some "teacher showed you an idealized picture of nature.

animal kill with in ther species all the time.

i have seen
1. siames fighting fish kill one another.
2. cocks
3. dogs

and while safaring in africa i saw (pointed out by the guild). a lion who was dying of an infection caused by a paw swipe.

animals i have read about that kill one another
bears
tigers
crocks
some insects

dont believe me read jane goodals(foremost expert on chimps) second book.
not only do chimps kill one another but will actually go to war against neighboring tribes.



by the way most animal fights are not leathal cause one realizes it is out matched and runs away.

the paws they hit one another with is akin to jabs they are doing it not to protect the other animal they do it so they dont have to get in close and risk injury. trust me lions do go for the throat of other lions if the have the chance.

they also have ethical problems with crushing the skulls of the fallen rivals offspring.

also ther is no rest home in the wild for blinded lions to live out the rest of there days in tranquility

[mai tai]

fear in a fight. im going to not call it fear but adreniline over wash.
very rarely can a fella take the fighter they are in the dojo out into the street. this is because of the adrenilne sure you get kinda makes you sloppy, forget what you know and if you are very agressive you may attach leaving huge opening.

the best way in my opinon is to go to as many torniments and competitions as you can. these cause the nerves to raise a bit, you always allittle more amped at a comp with a crowd and fighting a stranger than when your at you dojo.

this tension is a reason why a lot of people dont do comps. fear of loseing, getting hurt, looking bad in front of others.


i know its not the same as the street, but it will get you used to that feeling of adrenilne wash and still be able to preform.

the more comps you have the easyer it is to bring that smooth figher you are in the dojo out into the world.


im not saying ditch the all the self defence stuff your training and become a sport fighter only. but eh what else are you doing on a saterday morning?

[AZeitung]

That is very important... Nature won't allow the animals of the sames species killing themselves...

This isn't true. In fact, chimp troupes even "go to war". There have been instances of one troupe completely slaughtering another.

[mai tai]

This isn't true. In fact, chimp troupes even "go to war". There have been instances of one troupe completely slaughtering another.
heh i all ready said that, bite off you oun info. just kidding

i guess this is proof that no one listens to me anyway :cry:

[Judderman]

Perhaps the difference is that Humans don't have disengage triggers as other animals do. More often than not when an animal displays a passive position then attack against it is ceased.

We do not appear to have these triggers any more. Showing fear etc can make the attack worse, because the attacker feels that he in no danger.

[Tank Gurl]

what MA cannot prepare you for there's probably another sport that can

If your MA can't prepare you for fighting ummmmmm, why the hell is it called a "martial" art? And if you have to turn to a sport to give you instincts, ummmmmmmm :bang:

[NaughtyKnight]

Actually, I know heaps of people that learnt to fight playing AFL, NRL etc.

[pgm316]

If someone is about to attack you, how do you deal with the fear to make you fight back at your best?

You kind of get caught up in the moment. In some ways its less scary than sparring as you're pumped with adrenalin. I broke up a fight about an hour ago, feel like leaving them to it as you don't know how they'll react to you once you've grabbed them. One backed off and blocked a couple on my arm from the other before they fell down, funny that ;)