Why the Bible is wrong

[munkiejunkie]

Ok. I am a Buddhist, who converted from Christianity because I felt that Buddhism's princibles make more sense. However, I would like to state that the Bible cannot possibly be right. God, as described in the Bible, was a logical impossiblity. God is said in the Bible to be pure(ie non malevolent), and omnipotent, however, it is impossible-by the third law of logic- to be both at the same time. As stated in the riddle of Epicurus- "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" by the third law of logic, he can't be both. If he is willing to stop evil, but unable, he is not omnipotent, and therefore, not a God. If he is able to stop evil, but unwilling, he is then malevolent, therefore not God as the Bible describes him.That is why I believe that the Bible, has to be wrong about atleast one thing. I believe something or someone must have created the Universe, just that they are not omnipotent AND pure at the same time. (P.S. I believe in Nirvana as a collection of all the best things in this universe, sort of like this universe is a prototype, and that if you have achieved the state of those in Nirvana (i.e. Buddhahood) you pass between them.)

[NaughtyKnight]

Mate, no religion is logicall. That is why it is called faith.

Buddhism has as many flaws as christianity.

[BendzR]

If you want to be skeptical on the bible (or any religious scripture for that matter) via logic, you could have chosen a much easier topic then the attributes of God.

[Eero]

I think God is the creative force inside of us. Our imagination. Personally I think that organised religions are usually about power and control.

Remember that in a perfect world you would not have a freedom of choice. There could be only one ruler in a world without bad things happening.

[gerard]

Mate, no religion is logicall. That is why it is called faith.

I would call it the worold outside the thinking mind, therefore wizardry :eek:


Buddhism has as many flaws as christianity.


Please explain

:)

[Maverick]

You're right. Nothing is new. Try telling that to a religious person though. The bible is metaphorical when it is convenient for them.

[AndyShaw]

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
One crucial mistake you're making here is trying to judge God by your sense of right and wrong without any understanding of how the mind of God works. If God is indeed God then his ways must be beyond our understanding. Is he incapable of stopping evil, no (otherwise he wouldn't be God). Does he allow evil? Yes he often does. Why? I don't know. Perhaps he brings good things out of bad situations and the greater good is achieved. I don't know. However, I do know that you cannot limit God with human logic and reason.

[Tatsumaru]

God moves in mysterious ways, conveniently so mysterious that an explanation that people can agree on is impossible. Oh well, i guess theres no way to prove God's existence or the 'truth' of the bible to a non-christian just as there is no way for an atheist such as myself to convince a strong christian that their ideas are flawed to say the least. There, i just saved this thread from pages and pages of points made a billion times over about religion.

[MattK]

One crucial mistake you're making here is trying to judge God by your sense of right and wrong without any understanding of how the mind of God works. If God is indeed God then his ways must be beyond our understanding. Is he incapable of stopping evil, no (otherwise he wouldn't be God). Does he allow evil? Yes he often does. Why? I don't know. Perhaps he brings good things out of bad situations and the greater good is achieved. I don't know. However, I do know that you cannot limit God with human logic and reason.

Then you get into the problem of...

Is X good because god wills it. (If this is true, then god is not worthy of worship.... he is essentially a dictatorial figure, rather than a paternalistic one)

Or

Does God will X because it is good (God is stuck to certian moral codes, which are outside of his power... hence got isnt all powerfull, therefore not worthy of worship)

Its the euthyphro dilemma that plato pondered


The Euthyphro Dilemma


(1) If divine command theory is true then either (i) morally good acts are willed by God because they are morally good, or (ii) morally good acts are morally good because they are willed by God.

(2) If (i) morally good acts are willed by God because they are morally good, then they are morally good independent of God’s will.

(3) It is not the case that morally good acts are morally good independent of God’s will.

Therefore:
(4) It is not the case that (i) morally good acts are willed by God because they are morally good.

(5) If (ii) morally good acts are morally good because they are willed by God, then there is no reason either to care about God’s moral goodness or to worship him.

(6) There are reasons both to care about God’s moral goodness and to worship him.

Therefore:
(7) It is not the case that (ii) morally good acts are morally good because they are willed by God.

Therefore:
(8) Divine command theory is false.

The first premise of the Euthyphro dilemma presents the two alternatives to the divine command theorist. The two options offered to the divine command theorist are intended to be logically exhaustive, so that if divine command theory is true then one of the options must be the case. The divine command theorist is therefore forced to choose one of the options to affirm.

The second premise states the consequences of the divine command theorist affirming the first of the options offered to him in premise (1), “morally good acts are willed by God because they are morally good”. It states that if the first option is true then the morally good is morally good independent of God’s will. This claim is supported by an argument known as the independence problem.

The third premise denies that the morally good is morally good independent of God’s will. Of course, the critic of divine command theory does not believe this premise to be true; he believes that morality is independent of God’s will. However, the divine command theorist is committed to accepting this claim because divine command theory just is the theory that all moral truths are dependent on God’s will. Though critics of divine command theory disbelieve this premise, then, they can still use it against the divine command theorist.

The first subconclusion, (4) is the rejection of the first option offered to the divine command theorist in premise (1). This follows from premises (2) and (3).

Premise (5) states the consequences of the divine command theorist affirming the second of the options offered to him in premise (1). It states that if the second option is true then there is no reason either to care about God’s moral goodness or to worship him. The first claim is supported by an argument known as the emptiness problem, the second by an argument known as the problem of abhorrent commands.

(6) states that we do have reason both to care about God’s moral goodness and to worship him. Again, this is used as a premise to which the divine command theorist is committed, rather than as a premise that the critic of divine command theory believes is true.

The second subconclusion, (7), is the rejection of the second option offered to the divine command theorist in premise (1). It follows from premises (5) and (6).

Finally, (8) concludes that divine command theory is false. Premise (1) stated that if divine command theory were true then one of the two alternatives offered to the divine command theorist would also be true. The argument from (2) to (7) has, it is claimed, shown that neither alternative is true. It is therefore inferred that divine command theory is false.

[dori_kin_86]

I've stayed silent on this site long enough. Evil is like darkness and cold. They are only the absences of heat and light. Evil is the absence of God in people's hearts because they chose not to follow good. Man introduced evil into the world, (if you're a Christian or Jew, you most likely believe it was when Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil) God gave us free will, the will to do good, or the will to do wrong. He didn't want mindless zombies. What tells us is basically when evil is present, trust in God to bring you out of that place, event, etc. God himself told his followers, Do not worry about what man does to you, for I created man, I know his innermost workings, what can man do to you. Man can only harm flesh. Like what has been said before, God cannot fit in the relm of men. His power and glory always has been and always will be. God is beyond the grasp of human comprehension, because he created our minds.

[Strafio]

So, I'll go be a Christian Buddhist.

I think that God allows evil in the world, because he wants us as a race to grow as we overcome trails and tribulations that ultimately make us wiser and stronger.
If things were perfect then there would be no need for change, and everything would be sterile and lifeless.

My belief in the Garden of Eden story is that it is metaphorical, representing the point when man evolved a conscience of right and wrong, and that's when we had to start taking responsibility for our actions and we could therefore do something bad - "sin".

From there, I think that Christians and Buddhists have the same objective in life.
To overcome our physical bearings and become on with the spirit.
Although personally, I think Buddhism teaches this the best to me, explaining how your spirituality can change your entire outlook on the world, and with a good perspective, you can make the best and be happy among any worldly circumstances.

And finding your inner-spirit is how you become closer to God.


Very vague, muddled and muffled... but sort of along the lines of what I'm thinking.
That it's through enlightenment that you can trully enter the Kingdom of God?
That the Kingdom is inside and that the world is heaven once you learn to love everything about it... or something... :)

[YODA]

Evil is the absence of God in people's hearts because they chose not to follow good.
It's good to se you put TWO o's in that final word :D

God is beyond the grasp of human comprehension, because he created our minds.
So how can you comprehend that with your human mind? Seems very paradoxical. How can we comprehend that we can't comprehend something that we can't comprehend? If we cannot know? How do we know that?

[tbubb1]

Yea, I'm just going to agree that you cannot even begin to ATTEMPT to understand the one who created you. He is all powerful, therefore he is beyond our comprehension. Millions of Jews and Christians have attempted to understand God since the begining of time, but have always failed because we are ONLY HUMAN. God transcends logic. You cannot understand Him.

My thoughts.

[Tatsumaru]

This "god is beyond human understanding" argument is just the ultimate cop-out, the fact is there is no explanation that can be provided because there is nothing to be explained, 'God' doesn't exist. I can tolerate and even respect people having their own faith and ideals, i can't tolerate people saying that somebody should accept a concept without question because they can't possibly comprehend it.

[Eero]

I can tolerate and even respect people having their own faith and ideals, i can't tolerate people saying that somebody should accept a concept without question because they can't possibly comprehend it.

Yeah, that is one of the dumbest things you can say. They keep saying that people like me should accept their religion as the word of god because I can not understand the truth. :bang:

[aikiMac]

Ok. I am a Buddhist, who converted from Christianity because I felt that Buddhism's princibles make more sense.
Or maybe not. Before you can say something about Christianity's principles, you have to know Christianity's principles, and for a reason given below, I don't believe that you know Christianity's principles.


However, I would like to state that the Bible cannot possibly be right. God, as described in the Bible, was a logical impossiblity. God is said in the Bible to be pure(ie non malevolent), and omnipotent, however, it is impossible-by the third law of logic- to be both at the same time. As stated in the riddle of Epicurus- "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" by the third law of logic, he can't be both. If he is willing to stop evil, but unable, he is not omnipotent, and therefore, not a God. If he is able to stop evil, but unwilling, he is then malevolent, therefore not God as the Bible describes him.That is why I believe that the Bible, has to be wrong about atleast one thing.
This is an old question, but a very, very good question. There is no short answer in part because you've left out some of God's other characteristics. He has a few more than two, you know. You're addressing only two of many characteristics and drawing final conclusions from those two. That is your mistake, and of course your conclusion is wrong. You have to consider all of God's characteristics before drawing a final conclusion about God. The only way that I know of to really sift through this problem is by reading the appropriate chapter in a systematic theology book. Any systematic theology book. The one I read is by Thomas Oden. If you read Oden, you want volume 1.

[Kosh]

Its easy to reconcile, as ive said before. Good and Evil have nothing to do with God. The concept of good and evil breaks down outside of our existence. I would also go as far as to say that god cant understand good and evil the way we can, if at all.

[Eero]

The concept of good and evil breaks down outside of our existence. I would also go as far as to say that god cant understand good and evil the way we can, if at all.

Have you been talking with him lately?

[OBCT]

Monkeyjunkie,

Go speak to a Jesuit, i'll bet their amazing ability at somantics would convert you.
As to being pure and omnipotent, look up trinity (No! not the pvc clad one from the matrix, or the one in Optimus Prime's chest.)
Father (bit of a bad-boy), son (pure, soft-lad, would be picked on in a modern school) and holy spirit (kind of floating around, with a 4-D existance. Ominipotent ? maybe.)
The King James II bible has several flaws in it, maybe you should look further, deep into it's roots.

[Alex_JHH]

Just thought I'd throw this in (I am Christian by the way)

"God is Dead" - Voltaire
"Voltaire is Dead" - God

[semphoon]

Just thought I'd throw this in (I am Christian by the way)

"God is Dead" - Voltaire
"Voltaire is Dead" - God


Im sure it was Nietzsche (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20385&highlight=Nietzsche) in The Gay science that said "God is dead."

[YODA]

This "god is beyond human understanding" argument is just the ultimate cop-out, the fact is there is no explanation that can be provided because there is nothing to be explained, 'God' doesn't exist. I can tolerate and even respect people having their own faith and ideals, i can't tolerate people saying that somebody should accept a concept without question because they can't possibly comprehend it.
*Applause* :D

[DaveMustaine]

Not that this is my view, but if you try to use this argument against some people with a bit of a philosophy background, they are basically going to tell you that all the bad things that happen in the world are for the greater good. Example, the tsunami has brought out charitable acts from people all over the world.

[DaveMustaine]

This "god is beyond human understanding" argument is just the ultimate cop-out, the fact is there is no explanation that can be provided because there is nothing to be explained, 'God' doesn't exist. I can tolerate and even respect people having their own faith and ideals, i can't tolerate people saying that somebody should accept a concept without question because they can't possibly comprehend it.

I agree, total cop out. I've also read books where they'll use this defence at some point trying to defend the possibility of God, and then later they'll try to explain their understanding of God. Wait, I thought God was beyond human understanding?

[YODA]

I agree, total cop out. I've also read books where they'll use this defence at some point trying to defend the possibility of God, and then later they'll try to explain their understanding of God. Wait, I thought God was beyond human understanding?
That was exactly my point above.

If god is beyond understanding stop trying to make me understand :D

[Banpen Fugyo]

I've stayed silent on this site long enough. Evil is like darkness and cold. They are only the absences of heat and light. Evil is the absence of God in people's hearts because they chose not to follow good. Man introduced evil into the world, (if you're a Christian or Jew, you most likely believe it was when Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil) God gave us free will, the will to do good, or the will to do wrong. He didn't want mindless zombies. What tells us is basically when evil is present, trust in God to bring you out of that place, event, etc. God himself told his followers, Do not worry about what man does to you, for I created man, I know his innermost workings, what can man do to you. Man can only harm flesh. Like what has been said before, God cannot fit in the relm of men. His power and glory always has been and always will be. God is beyond the grasp of human comprehension, because he created our minds.

Lol YOUR the one that sounds like a mindless zombie. Unable to grasp reality and unable to think beyond the barrier that has been put around you by your ______ (parents, friends, community's, church's) faith.

People need to stop generalizing these threads. This particular thread is about the bible, not god.

There are PLENTY of points showing the bible is wrong. Like on an episode of Penn & Teller's Bull ___, they say "If you believe in god, theres nothing we can do or say to change that, thats faith." But if you believe in the bible..... and then they preceded to tear it to shreds.

[munkiejunkie]

siphus, that last bit was the exact point I was trying to make

[Strafio]

The Bible is great if you take it for what it is.

"Tertiary Evidence", ancient reports of happenings 2000 years ago, with followers of the belief giving their ideas on what it was all about.
You can learn a lot from it.

The thing is, some people take it too "divinely", and make it out to be unbreakable tenets, when no one can trully agree what these rules are.
For me, Jesus knew that simple rules could be corrupted, so he spoke in parables so that people would find their own answers rather through understanding, rather than following a rulebook like a robot.

[MattK]

Its always interesting to note that the bible that we know of, was compilied by a Roman Empror, who incidently wasnt even christian. There are actually 23 gospels that have been found, and authorised, including Mary Magdilines. The gospels that were ommited talk more about the political nature behind christianity, and some even document jesus refuting the fact that people need organized religion.

Theres a guy on my course at college... big theist, used to be a catholic, stopped calling himself that now. He has loads of links to them etc...

i'll get them off him tomorow, and post them

[NaughtyKnight]

LOL. Everyone needs to relax.

Dont try and prove God exists, or Buddah or whatever exists. You cannot possible prove it. Otherwise it wouldnt be faith.

Tell you all what. When we all snuff it. We will see who wins. :Angel:

[Poop-Loops]

I really don't see what the big deal is. Everybody should just shut the hell up and do what they want without pushing their beliefs on others.

Before our space probes landed on Jupiter's moons, Sci-Fi guys were making up bizzare stories and had ideas of what it would be like. When we got there, it was MUCH wierder than anybody had thought. I expect that to be the same. We don't have a clue of how it could be, so why bother argueing it?

PL

[BendzR]

When we all snuff it. We will see who wins. :Angel:

except atheists. if they win, no one will know. ahah
:D

[NaughtyKnight]

except atheists. if they win, no one will know. ahah
:D
Hahahaha. That is true.

[Alexander]

except atheists. if they win, no one will know. ahah
:D

Pascal's Wager.

We Atheists have it so hard eh?

[Chruffin]

Pascal's Wager.

We Atheists have it so hard eh?

heh heh heh, you know you love Pascal's wager really.

I support any argument that can be reduced to: Believe in God or I'll hit you with a big stick :D

Nah seriously though, the very nature of the problem means that no-one's gonna be able to find a solution to it. So give it up guys - It's all about love anyway. So stop arguing and get jiggy wit' it! :love:

[Chruffin]

Though saying that, I do feel the urge to point out that all these threads seem to be started by Atheists. Seriously guys, if you're sick of having religion shoved down your throat then good for you, but don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to then turn round and start preaching the merits of Atheism at people?

Come on guys, if I wanna believe in God then that's my business, not yours. So butt out and mind your own damn business.

[MattK]

Though saying that, I do feel the urge to point out that all these threads seem to be started by Atheists. Seriously guys, if you're sick of having religion shoved down your throat then good for you, but don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to then turn round and start preaching the merits of Atheism at people?

Come on guys, if I wanna believe in God then that's my business, not yours. So butt out and mind your own damn business.

Sorry, but that is complete utter tosh.

If people didnt question and argue things, no progress would be made.

Thats like saying, hey i believe in a master race of whites... its my business not yours. So butt out.

Belief in religion does affect people day to day.... its not some forign concept that dosent affect people, hence why it is often so staunchly debated.

[YODA]

Come on guys, if I wanna believe in God then that's my business, not yours. So butt out and mind your own damn business.

That's about as far towards the gate to the sin bin as you're gonna go without being shut in there. If you can't discuss the issues without reverting to personal abuse then please post elsewhere.

[Alexander]

Though saying that, I do feel the urge to point out that all these threads seem to be started by Atheists. Seriously guys, if you're sick of having religion shoved down your throat then good for you, but don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to then turn round and start preaching the merits of Atheism at people?

Come on guys, if I wanna believe in God then that's my business, not yours. So butt out and mind your own damn business.

Actually as minor vengance me and a few friends are thinking of heading to the nearest Jehovah's Witnesses' Lodge (dressed in White robes) and knocking on their door armed with books by Hawking and Hume with the words: "I wonder if I could ask you a few questions? Have you discovered the wonders of Atheism?" :D

[OBCT]

Last time a Jehovah's witness came round here, I told him i was an Anolic (opposite of catholic, anode/cathode)

After 5/10 minutes of them trying to convert me, I was sick of hearing about this perfect haven, the images of which had plastic buttons on the people's shirts, built houses, cultivated gardens, but as they said, no factories and nobody would have to work. Plus in their world there was no ethnic diversity, which perturbed me, and worst, possibly the most stupid thing, was that the car they were dropped off onto the street in was a Volvo. I hate Volvo's, they slow up the motorway, tow caravans. stupid cars. So i got mad and let Kelly out (my ickle baby girly Jack Russell [almost 2.5 stone now]-once fended off 5 lads from kicking a ball because she thought they were hurting it. bless her, she has no religion either) Those Jehovah's witnesses can run really really fast, she got a tiny slither of trouser material from the bottom hem though. Good girl. She got a grilled steak for that.

[tbubb1]

reddddddddddneckkkkk lol

[NaughtyKnight]

Though saying that, I do feel the urge to point out that all these threads seem to be started by Atheists. Seriously guys, if you're sick of having religion shoved down your throat then good for you, but don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to then turn round and start preaching the merits of Atheism at people?

Come on guys, if I wanna believe in God then that's my business, not yours. So butt out and mind your own damn business.

Now you went and started the whole argument again. :bang:

[toothpaste100]

I was out shovelling my driveway and I realized something: talking to someone about their religion is like talking to someone about their stock portfolio, no one wants to admit they made a bad investment.

[soggycat]

Mate, no religion is logicall. That is why it is called faith.

Buddhism has as many flaws as christianity.
Well said.
The originator of the thread seeks to analyse and rationalise the mind of God, and thereby presumes to be his equal.

[soggycat]

Though saying that, I do feel the urge to point out that all these threads seem to be started by Atheists. Seriously guys, if you're sick of having religion shoved down your throat then good for you, but don't you think it's a bit hypocritical to then turn round and start preaching the merits of Atheism at people?

Come on guys, if I wanna believe in God then that's my business, not yours. So butt out and mind your own damn business.

WEll said! You expsed the hypocrisy of Aetheists!
Believing in nothing is a religion itself . :Angel:

[Goju]

Hey that was in a book I'm reading. It's called "life of Pi". I haven't finished it, but it's based on a story told to the author and the only reason he stayed to listen was because the man telling it said "this story can make anyone believe in god". Apparently it worked. Anyway, in the book the boy Pi explains how his teacher was an aetheist, but he sort of uses aetheism as a kind of hope or faith. Is there any aetheists in here? please correct me, but isn't life somewhat pointless to aetheists? I mean, if theres nothing further than human life then what have you to live for? You are born, you work and you die; the sole purpose of your existence is to make someone else happier and enjoy the good times between the bad times and work? To me, without some kind of faith, or some belief of a hereafter and a greater understanding, theres really no purpose to our existence (imo).

[Chruffin]

That's about as far towards the gate to the sin bin as you're gonna go without being shut in there. If you can't discuss the issues without reverting to personal abuse then please post elsewhere.

Okay, let me first just apologise for the way that came across, reading back over it now it seems a little more offensive than intended. I don't personally take any offense from explitives so I tend to think in terms of them - The part of my brain that tells me to find more polite words was out of action at the time!

I can see how that could have been taken offensively but I assure you that it wasn't intended to be so, my point was simply that it's a little hypocritical to argue against religious beliefs being thrown in peoples' faces (which I honestly have only ever had once in my entire life) by throwing atheism in everyone's faces (which I've honestly had 1,000,000 times in my life).

If people want to be atheist then that's up to them - I'm certainly not gonna argue against it. Heck, I don't even think it really matters what people think or believe so long as they live their lives well. But my point was that likewise, if atheists expect religious people to show that respect for their beliefs then shouldn't they reciprocate in kind?

Sorry, but that is complete utter tosh.

If people didnt question and argue things, no progress would be made.

Thats like saying, hey i believe in a master race of whites... its my business not yours. So butt out.

Belief in religion does affect people day to day.... its not some forign concept that dosent affect people, hence why it is often so staunchly debated.

Actually it's not. Believing in a master race of whites carries with it the implication of the inferiority of other races. Aryan supremacy is an integral theory while religion is a unification theory. Now of course you do get religious movements such as numerous fundamentalist groups throughout history - both East and West - that take this too far. You get sword point conversions and religious wars all through history. But equally you also get the League of the Militant Godless (formed I think in 1928) and just as many governments that have tried to abolish religion as well.

Now what am I saying here? Yes, issues such as the belief in an Aryan superman is something we might question, heck, it's something we should question. Why? Because we *know* it's wrong. A person's religious beliefs however, assuming they're not extremist, are their own. They shouldn't have to defend them from others just because they're not shared.

But on to your last point there. How do my beliefs, whatever they may be, affect you? Personally I can't see them having any impact on your life past this forum, which we'll all forget about the moment we log off anyway. To show just how negligable an impact my beliefs have on you, could you even tell me what my beliefs are? Sure it's kinda plain by now that I'm religious but I doubt you could tell me much more than that.

Unless you meant religious institutions? In which case then why are you directing your arguments against individual religious people? What have *they* done?

Last time a Jehovah's witness came round here, I told him i was an Anolic (opposite of catholic, anode/cathode)

After 5/10 minutes of them trying to convert me, I was sick of hearing about this perfect haven, the images of which had plastic buttons on the people's shirts, built houses, cultivated gardens, but as they said, no factories and nobody would have to work. Plus in their world there was no ethnic diversity, which perturbed me, and worst, possibly the most stupid thing, was that the car they were dropped off onto the street in was a Volvo. I hate Volvo's, they slow up the motorway, tow caravans. stupid cars. So i got mad and let Kelly out (my ickle baby girly Jack Russell [almost 2.5 stone now]-once fended off 5 lads from kicking a ball because she thought they were hurting it. bless her, she has no religion either) Those Jehovah's witnesses can run really really fast, she got a tiny slither of trouser material from the bottom hem though. Good girl. She got a grilled steak for that.

So what... you're saying we should set our dogs on people with different views to us? Did you not think that if you didn't want to hear their sales talk (yes, it gets annoying - but I think that's a little extreme) then it would have been an idea to just not open the door, or better yet respectfully tell them you weren't interested?

Plus in their world there was no ethnic diversity, which perturbed me

Yeah, I find the idea of a Jehovah's Witness proposing the idea of racial purification somewhat hard to swallow. Maybe they were talking in terms of perception? ie. that people didn't care about racial distinctions? Just a thought there...

[NaughtyKnight]

I was waiting for my pizza to arive yesterday and so left my gate open so they could get in. I was looking out the window as my hunger was taking over and I saw these 2 people walking towards my house wearing suits. My dogs went absloutly ape and set the people off pretty fast. They left behind some pamflets.

They were Jehovah's witness. So i let my dog eat the pamflet. Hopefully he will get used to the smell and attack next time. :D

[Banpen Fugyo]

THIS THREAD IS ABOUT THE BIBLE AND HOW ITS WRONG. Not about atheism.

[NaughtyKnight]

THIS THREAD IS ABOUT THE BIBLE AND HOW ITS WRONG. Not about atheism.

LOL, you cant prove its wrong so quit trying. Atheism has its place, just as much as your religion.

Writing in caps is considered shouting.

[Bob1770]

Hey that was in a book I'm reading. It's called "life of Pi". I haven't finished it, but it's based on a story told to the author and the only reason he stayed to listen was because the man telling it said "this story can make anyone believe in god". Apparently it worked. Anyway, in the book the boy Pi explains how his teacher was an aetheist, but he sort of uses aetheism as a kind of hope or faith. Is there any aetheists in here? please correct me, but isn't life somewhat pointless to aetheists? I mean, if theres nothing further than human life then what have you to live for? You are born, you work and you die; the sole purpose of your existence is to make someone else happier and enjoy the good times between the bad times and work? To me, without some kind of faith, or some belief of a hereafter and a greater understanding, theres really no purpose to our existence (imo).
An opinion is an opinion! I read yours, now read mine. "Isn't life somewhat pointless to Aeithists? I mean, if theres nothing further than human life then what have you to live for? You are born, you work and you die; the sole purpose of your existence is to make someone else happier and enjoy the good times between the bad times and work?" What is it that religious people see wrong with reality? Celebrate and enjoy life while you are here, influence your children and grandchildren to pass on the same moral character that you makes you who you are. God? bahahahahahaha, give me a break! A higher power, a puppetmaster, watching and knowing everything everyone and every species of life in existance is the most ludicrous belief I have ever heard of. And the really sad thing, the majority of modern society belives in some sort of higher power. The Easter Bunny, Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy have as much credibility as your so-called god. Believe in yourself., believe in your family and friends, but drop the god crap, it is only clouding your perspectives of reality. Religion has NO place in modern society, so keep it within the walls of your church and out of the eyes of the general public. Religion has NO place in public schools or government/tax based organazations. Abusing and changing the US Constitution to meet and support the beliefs of any religious organazation violates the US Constitution. Don't like what I have to say? Then keep your religious views to yourself, and I'll do the same. I will say that my family has a great number of religious members, but the peace is kept by respecting one anothe's beliefs enough to leave the debates out of our relationships. Believe what you want, I don't care, but keep it to yourself and I will do the same. If you would like to argue religion more with a hardcore Atheist, PM me, I'd be much ablidged to try to change your views on the subject.

[Banpen Fugyo]

LOL, you cant prove its wrong so quit trying. Atheism has its place, just as much as your religion.

Writing in caps is considered shouting.

i'm trying to bring the thread back on topic instead of talking about atheism and jehovas witnesses id like to talk about biblical references.

[NaughtyKnight]

An opinion is an opinion! I read yours, now read mine. "Isn't life somewhat pointless to Aeithists? I mean, if theres nothing further than human life then what have you to live for? You are born, you work and you die; the sole purpose of your existence is to make someone else happier and enjoy the good times between the bad times and work?" What is it that religious people see wrong with reality? Celebrate and enjoy life while you are here, influence your children and grandchildren to pass on the same moral character that you makes you who you are. God? bahahahahahaha, give me a break! a higher power, a puppetmaster, watching and knowing everything everyone and every species of life in existance is the most ludicrous belief I have ever heard of. And the really sad thing, the majority of modern society belives in some sort of higher power. The Easter Bunny, Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy have as much credibility as your so-called god. Believe in yourself., believe in your family and friends, but drop the god crap, it is only clouding your perspectives of reality. Religion has NO place in modern society, so keep it within the walls of your church and out of the eyes of the general public. Religion has NO place in public schools or government/tax based organazations. Abusing and changing the US Constitution to meet and support the beliefs of any religious organazation violates the US Constitution. Don't liek what I have to say? Then keep your religious views to yourself, and I'll so the same. I will say that my family has a great number of religious members, but the peace is kept by respecting one anothe's beliefs enough to leave the debates out of our relationships. Believe what you want, I don't care, but keep it to yourself and I will do the same. If you would like to argue religion more with a hardcore Atheist, PM me, I'd be much abliged to change your views on the subject.

Well said! :cool:

I hated scripture when I went to school. I used to ask questions about things that confused me like "miss, what happends to animals when they die do they go to heaven?", do you know what she told me? "no, animals dont go to heaven, the turn to ash".

What a thing to tell to a young lad :cry: :D

[NaughtyKnight]

i'm trying to bring the thread back on topic instead of talking about atheism and jehovas witnesses id like to talk about biblical references.

Feel free to start off then. Pick apart the bible all you want. Which chapter, verse would you like to refer to?

[Banpen Fugyo]

hm... how about these for a start
Random meanness, absurdities, contradictions:

Gen.1:25-27 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image.

Gen.2:18-19 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

So... man came first? or... what?

Deuteronomy 20: 17-18 (which I personally hate): “We shall annihilate them all, just as the Lord our God has commanded, so that they may not teach us to do all the abhorrent things that they do for their Gods, thus making us sin against our Gods.”

Yeah, thats a nice teaching.

Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle.--Jer.19:3

If a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and ... if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.--Ex.21:20-21

"And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls." But this contradicts Acts 7:14 which says there were 75.

Gen 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Gen 22 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

God kills everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah. This was because, so say the Christian Right, some homosexuals lived there. LOL

God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day

Genisis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Giants? wtf?

Who were "the sons of God" who had sex with "the daughters of men"? Apparently nobody nice cuz god decided to kill all of them in the next few verses....

Lev 1:5 And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Lev 1:6 And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces.

Lev 3:5 And Aaron's sons shall burn it on the altar upon the burnt sacrifice, which is upon the wood that is on the fire: it is an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.

5:10 And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.

Hebrews Chapter 10 10:4
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


these are just a few.... FEW. yes, there a lot of great things in the bible, about love and life, and happiness. But look at what its teaching.... i mean.. cmon man, seriously.

[Banpen Fugyo]

you cant pick and chose what you believe in the bible. You either believe it, or u dont. If its all the word of god, then how can it be wrong? ITS THE WORD OF GOD. Hm... You cant say , well hes right about homos, they suck, but hes not right about beating your wife... thats just wrong.

[Bob1770]

Feel free to start off then. Pick apart the bible all you want. Which chapter, verse would you like to refer to?

They are all a waste of time, and I try not to waste my time arguing about them. I used to date a gal who went to a church that had the female members sit in the back of the church, facing the opposite drection of the altar. The women were not permited to speak, unless spoken to. They were, and still are in many misguided peoples twisted minds, inferior to the males. Did you all know that equal rights were actually hendered and suppressed by none other than religious organazations? Womens rights were muffled and ignored due to religious beliefs that the man is the superior entity. Most religions have strayed away from this but some still remain as predjudice as ever. Religion??? Maybe we should all worship a real live human being that has a DIRECT influence on us, not some dead guy who may or may not have ever existed, but supposedly died over 2000 years ago. I think that there are plenty of people worthy of our respect. Let them know what they mean to you while they are still around. Because if you wait to honor someone after they are gone, then how would that benefit them? Dead is dead, gone is gone. Take a minute and think of someone who has had a profound influence and positive impact of your life. Then let them know, while they are still alive that you appreciate them for whatever reason!

[NaughtyKnight]

you cant pick and chose what you believe in the bible. You either believe it, or u dont. If its all the word of god, then how can it be wrong? ITS THE WORD OF GOD. Hm... You cant say , well hes right about homos, they suck, but hes not right about beating your wife... thats just wrong.

Why are you so intrested in proving the bible wrong. Is it going to change your life at all?

Proving the jehovas witnesses wrong. Now thats worth something. Well kinda, since it aint all that hard. :D

[NaughtyKnight]

They are all a waste of time, and I try not to waste my time arguing about them.

Im inclined to agree with you. Life is too short to bother wondering whats gonna happen when we die.

I know that im going to a mytical place were kick bags and speed balls are everywhere, and playmates will be hand feeding me grapes during my break as I watch back to back Miami Vice episodes forever. :love:

For all you know I could be right. No one can prove me wrong.

[Banpen Fugyo]

its not so much that i care so much, i just feel like... i dont know, like its my duty. Like if someone is walking funny and they keep tripping i'd say, hey, why dont u try walking like this, and if it works, awesome. I just like making people think instead of automatically assuming everything is right. Believe in god, thats fine, but dont believe in the bible because thats what you learned, believe in the bible because you have completely thought it through and compared and contrasted with others around the world...

[NaughtyKnight]

its not so much that i care so much, i just feel like... i dont know, like its my duty. Like if someone is walking funny and they keep tripping i'd say, hey, why dont u try walking like this, and if it works, awesome. I just like making people think instead of automatically assuming everything is right. Believe in god, thats fine, but dont believe in the bible because thats what you learned, believe in the bible because you have completely thought it through and compared and contrasted with others around the world...

I hate the bible, it bores me. I tired reading it once, fell asleep after something about and the son of and the son of blah blah blah.

The only good religious passage is the 1 from pulp fiction. Thats probably because I dont even think its in the bible.

Siphus may I ask what religion you are? Your not a jehovas witnesses are you? :D

[Bob1770]

its not so much that i care so much, i just feel like... i dont know, like its my duty. Like if someone is walking funny and they keep tripping i'd say, hey, why dont u try walking like this, and if it works, awesome. I just like making people think instead of automatically assuming everything is right. Believe in god, thats fine, but dont believe in the bible because thats what you learned, believe in the bible because you have completely thought it through and compared and contrasted with others around the world...

Believe in yourself, your family and friends, believe in science and all that biblical stuff will show itself as absolute ignorant primitive misunderstings turned into the gospel for those who refuse to take the "blinders" off and accept change for what it is. It is human nature to resist change, but religion has to be the extreme challenge of human natures resistance to change and adaptation.

[Banpen Fugyo]

I dont know what i am yet... I havent figured it out. Taoism is lookin real nice right now tho. Maybe even Shinto.

[Banpen Fugyo]

Or maybe im an atheist... i dont know...

Itd be nice to at least have some guidlines to live by though.

[NaughtyKnight]

Or maybe im an atheist... i dont know...

Itd be nice to at least have some guidlines to live by though.

Why do you need guidlines that were written thousands of years ago?

Live by your own rules. :woo:

[samuri-man]

Mate, no religion is logicall. That is why it is called faith.

Buddhism has as many flaws as christianity.


yes but so is your spelling and there are historicle records that prove the buddha exsisted christianity doesn't

ps i believe in everything

[AZeitung]

Then you get into the problem of...

Is X good because god wills it. (If this is true, then god is not worthy of worship.... he is essentially a dictatorial figure, rather than a paternalistic one)


This is the right one.

However, your second statement is false since if morally good acts are defined as such because they follow God's will, and it is God's will for us to worship him, then worshipping him must be morally good. Not worshiping him would be morally wrong. Why should we follow God's will? Because he is God, and he created the universe so that his way was the best way. Was it wrong of him to do this? No, because he is the one who defines right and wrong. Is it wrong for anyone else to do this? Yes, because God is the one who makes the rules and not other people. Is this fair? Yes, because God created and defined all things, including fairness.

Don't try to compare the actions of God to those of man, and say that just because man kind doesn't get do define right and wrong, God shouldn't either. If this goes against your new-age definitions of equality, too bad. You're forgetting that He is God, and therefore is better than us.

I'm not even reading most of this thread because its the same tired old arguments that have been around forever, and which never held any water. I only responded to this one because it caught my eye.

edit: I also managed to see the post just above mine, after I posted. There are no records I'm aware of that prove Buddha existed and that Christianity doesn't. In fact, any record that says Christianity doesn't exist has to be wrong, since it clearly does exist, just like a number of other religions.

Now if you're talking about records that say *Jesus* didn't exist, then I'm afraid scholarly opinion is quite against you, and its virtually agreed upon in scholarly, non-internet (and not just Christian) sourced that a man named Jesus did exist, and was crucified by the Romans. There's basically no real debate over that part, except online.

[Banpen Fugyo]

Why do you need guidlines that were written thousands of years ago?

Live by your own rules. :woo:

i didnt say i NEEDED them, i said it'd be nice if i was wrong. I'd like a heaven just as much as anyone else would.

[Strafio]

However, your second statement is false since if morally good acts are defined as such because they follow God's will...

I think that you misunderstood his argument.
He said that IF things are only to be done because the follow God's will (which I for one don't think so. I think that "do good" is God's will because it is good, not "do good" is good because it is God's will) then God is acting like a dictator. Just dictating what should be done.

I think your argument is that because he created everything, he has the right to be a dictator. Maybe so, and there would be nothing we could do about it. But he'd still be a selfish hypocrite and there are some of us who'd rather suffer his wrath than pretend he was trully divine.

That's not the God I believe in anyway. :)

[OBCT]

yes but so is your spelling and there are historicle records that prove the buddha exsisted christianity doesn't

ps i believe in everything

Usually a sentance begins with a capital letter. As to spelling, try 'historical' in place of 'historicle' and 'existed' in place of 'exsisted', and a comma between the words 'exsisted' and 'christianity' might help your statement make sense. I mean no offence, just to point out that if you're willing to attack other people's spelling mistakes, make sure your own are corrected first.

With regards to proving a man named 'Jesus' did exist around 2000 odd years ago, look at these two links.
The possibility
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20021021/jesus.html
The Atheist view http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0OBW/is_8_41/ai_98828375

With regards to proving a man called the buddha (Siddhartha gautama) existed around 563 to 483 BC look at this link.
http://www.parascience.org/BKTWO-18.htm
http://cngcoins.com/coin.asp?ITEM_ID=57598

Myself I prefer the notions in Taoism (as far as I've read into it) and Gnosticism.

[Infrazael]

i didnt say i NEEDED them, i said it'd be nice if i was wrong. I'd like a heaven just as much as anyone else would.

Be Pagan, Buddhist, Taoist, or all three!!!

[AZeitung]

I think that you misunderstood his argument.
He said that IF things are only to be done because the follow God's will (which I for one don't think so. I think that "do good" is God's will because it is good, not "do good" is good because it is God's will) then God is acting like a dictator. Just dictating what should be done.

I think your argument is that because he created everything, he has the right to be a dictator. Maybe so, and there would be nothing we could do about it. But he'd still be a selfish hypocrite and there are some of us who'd rather suffer his wrath than pretend he was trully divine.

That's not the God I believe in anyway. :)

But he defined selfishness and hypocricy as things that are wrong, so therefore, he is neither. Why is it wrong for God to dicate what is right and wrong? It can't be, since he defines right and wrong as his will, and since his will is that he define right and wrong, it can't be wrong for him to do so. You are still judging him by human standards, and without complete understanding of what he is doing. You would have no concept at all of hypocrisy if he hadn't created it, so your definition of hypocricy cannot be better than His.

I don't see why any of this is a problem, anyway. And this is really going to be the weakest part of my argument, so if you respond to anything, respond to the first paragraph. He's not just some average Joe on the street, he's someone with infinite knowledge and power, who defines everything in the universe to be whatever he wants, including concepts and logic. Therefore, has to act differently from a regular person. It's not a matter of whether he has the right to or not. There are no rights that aren't God given, so He is above such things. Like it or not, he's better than you.

[Strafio]

The God you described matches the attributes "selfish", as in his love for us is only iff we worship him, and hypocritical as he promotes humility yet seems to want to dictate everyone and be acknowledged as greater than everyone.

And if he defined Selfishness and Hypocritical, then that's how he defined them, and his definitions of them apply to him. Maybe you've minced your words, but that's what your version of God looks like from here.


Also, what's all this "he defined right and wrong"?
Right and wrong is a human perspective.
Selfishness and Hypocracy are human descriptions.



I'll tell you what I really disagree with.
God Judging us.
If you're right. He created us. Therefore, anything we do is down to HIM, HIS responsibility because that's how he made us.
Now either he screwed up and made us flawed or he made us how he wanted us made.
Either way, the fact that we "sin", he made us this way so any judging upon us would be hypocritical indeed.

The way I see it, he doesn't judge us.
He simply observes. He see how our actions harm us, and tries to giude us to live in a way that'll benefit us (I mean, watching what the human race does itself must be more cringeworthy than Jackass!)...
And we're learning. :)

[Goju]

I'm not entirely religious, but doesn't it say somewhere that god loves us all and will forgive us all (or something along those lines)?

[Strafio]

Sort of...
We're talking technicalities here. :)

My point is that if God made us to dictate us all like this guy is saying, then the love is purely selfish and he's hypocritical.
Therefore, I don't think God wants to dictate our lives. :)

[basher]

Sort of...
We're talking technicalities here. :)

My point is that if God made us to dictate us all like this guy is saying, then the love is purely selfish and he's hypocritical.
Therefore, I don't think God wants to dictate our lives. :)


For those who believe in the bible....why does it say man was made in OUR own image???? Strange, in my opinion.

[reikislapper]

For those who believe in the bible....why does it say man was made in OUR own image???? Strange, in my opinion.


Don't you get it lol, Man said it so man believes it lol.

[aikiMac]

For those who believe in the bible....why does it say man was made in OUR own image???? Strange, in my opinion.
Trinity.
Been discussed to death somewhere on MAP. I don't have the opportunity to look up the link right now.

[NaughtyKnight]

GET OFF THIS THREAD AND GO OUT AND TRAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Banpen Fugyo]

i just got back from training :)

[RobotBuddha]

I'm a having a seizure!

[bcbernam777]

its not so much that i care so much, i just feel like... i dont know, like its my duty. Like if someone is walking funny and they keep tripping i'd say, hey, why dont u try walking like this, and if it works, awesome. I just like making people think instead of automatically assuming everything is right. Believe in god, thats fine, but dont believe in the bible because thats what you learned, believe in the bible because you have completely thought it through and compared and contrasted with others around the world...
I have Siphus

[bcbernam777]

yes but so is your spelling and there are historicle records that prove the buddha exsisted christianity doesn't

ps i believe in everything
Actually if you are talking about factual historical data that both validate and confirm both the old and new testament and the major figures portrayed in them then you are incorrect in saying that Buddism has historical proof and Christianity doesnt, I will mention but a few the dead sea scrolls, Josephus, Eusibius, written accounts by Pontius Pilate as well as other historical Jewish writers both pre and post dating Christ. (just too mention a few)

[Knight_Errant]

That's really no more valid and reliable than Homer as a historical source. Christ's existence is however suggested by real historians such as tacitus and seutonius.

[bcbernam777]

That's really no more valid and reliable than Homer as a historical source. Christ's existence is however suggested by real historians such as tacitus and seutonius.
and are you suggesting that the sources named are no lease valid historians than the ones you have named or are you and I going to start a tit for tat session again? Because if that is what you are saying then you obviously have not made any indepth study into Hebraic history. Josephs was known as a contemporary of his time and even though Tertullian and Eusibius didn't see eye to eye, and where amongst many rivals, their accounts are still validated as correct historical information by many of todays leading scholars.

[snailfist]

"Why the Bible is wrong?"
Arguably, the original post actually said what it is wrong about :D
Why is it wrong?
Chinese whispers. People taking things literally when they were meant as metaphor, or as hypothesis. E.g. "The lord has told me"- meaning "I have reflected and prayed upon, and come to the conclusion that..."- gets interpreted as "I heard a voice in my head that says..." This is in part the fault of this listener... but I suspect that in part that various authorities were loathe to admit that they may not have it quite right :D

[AZeitung]

That's really no more valid and reliable than Homer as a historical source. Christ's existence is however suggested by real historians such as tacitus and seutonius.

The others aren't bad sources either. Like Josephus, for example. There's a faked passage in there, or at least, one that was modified. But the original certainly did refer to Jesus, and I think there's new evidence to suggest that there were parts of the passage that couldn't have been faked.

There's an other part that mentions Jesus as well, which definitely wasn't faked because of the way it sounds. I think it referrs to Jesus as some sort of "alleged savior" or something like that, which, if you look at the other modified passage, is not the way any mideival scholar would have referred to Jesus.

As for the bible - that is a much more reliable source than homer. Why? It is a compilation of multiple works, it has letters from at least one, possibly more primary source, and most of it was written within living memory of Jesus. Just the fact that so many people were writing similar stories about Jesus at the same time is evidence that he existed. Whatever else you might think about who he was, I doubt the bible would have been written if Jesus didn't exist. Homer, on the other hand, was written by a single man, not within living memory of anything, and ment to be told for entertainment.

[seiki juku kid]

God moves in mysterious ways, conveniently so mysterious that an explanation that people can agree on is impossible. Oh well, i guess theres no way to prove God's existence or the 'truth' of the bible to a non-christian just as there is no way for an atheist such as myself to convince a strong christian that their ideas are flawed to say the least. There, i just saved this thread from pages and pages of points made a billion times over about religion.

so why is this thread still 6 pages long???

[Banpen Fugyo]

Because god hates you.

[harhar]

God is said in the Bible to be pure(ie non malevolent), and omnipotent, however, it is impossible-by the third law of logic- to be both at the same time. As stated in the riddle of Epicurus- "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" by the third law of logic, he can't be both. If he is willing to stop evil, but unable, he is not omnipotent, and therefore, not a God. If he is able to stop evil, but unwilling, he is then malevolent, therefore not God as the Bible describes him.

God never wanted evil as you said. But God wanted us to have free will. With free will, comes the unpleasent side effect of evil.

If God destroys evil, then there cannot be free will. This alone disproves Gods so called "malevolence". We are to choose our path since otherwise we would just be mindless drones doing good and nothing else.

What is a life without hardships if it nullifies the enjoyment we feel from the good ("good" being moral good) things in life? We would lose great things such as faith and courage.

Basically, evil never had to be created as its potential was brought up with the creation of free will.

[Vita]

One crucial mistake you're making here is trying to judge God by your sense of right and wrong without any understanding of how the mind of God works. If God is indeed God then his ways must be beyond our understanding. Is he incapable of stopping evil, no (otherwise he wouldn't be God). Does he allow evil? Yes he often does. Why? I don't know. Perhaps he brings good things out of bad situations and the greater good is achieved. I don't know. However, I do know that you cannot limit God with human logic and reason.

he is critisizing the BIBLE by logic, and he is correct to do so, as it is written by MAN.

i believe in god, no matter what each religion calls it, but i am against ANY literal interpretation of word written by man. the books each religion follow are to be taken with a grain of salt, and used for guidance when guidance is needed, and to be applied to your situation.

[oneninja]

Just as your sensei has instructed you,God also instructed the writers of the bible.The bible was written by the hands of men from the mind of God.

[karate princess]

this might be a little off topic, but didn't it say in the bible that serigate parenting was wrong? however, wasn't Mary playing a serigate mother for God, as they didn't conceive Jesus. (religion is sooo confusing lol)

[seiki juku kid]

mary wasnt a surrogate mother because jesus was conceived by the holy spirit.

[Maverick]

Just as your sensei has instructed you,God also instructed the writers of the bible.The bible was written by the hands of men from the mind of God.

And you know this how?

[GB-UK]

I hope that this answers some of your questions.

hm... how about these for a start
Random meanness, absurdities, contradictions:

Gen.1:25-27 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, Let us make man in our image.... So God created man in his own image.

Gen.2:18-19 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

So... man came first? or... what?

The first passage refers to the creation of the world and all the living creatures etc. The second passage deals with the garden of Eden where God places man alone and then creates creatures to be with him.


Deuteronomy 20: 17-18 (which I personally hate): “We shall annihilate them all, just as the Lord our God has commanded, so that they may not teach us to do all the abhorrent things that they do for their Gods, thus making us sin against our Gods.”

Yeah, thats a nice teaching.

Because the people that are mentioned in this passage were involved in such things as child sacrifice/prostitution, ritual killings etc.

Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle.--Jer.19:3

If a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and ... if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.--Ex.21:20-21

The passage actually says:


20 ¶ And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.
21 Notwithstanding, if he acontinue• a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money

"And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls." But this contradicts Acts 7:14 which says there were 75.

Because the passage in Acts counts the wives in the number wereas the other passage Gen 46:26,27 does not.

Gen 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Gen 22 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

God kills everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah. This was because, so say the Christian Right, some homosexuals lived there. LOL

The cities were destroyed because of their immoral and sinful ways, child sacrifice, prostitution, and sodomy.

God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day

Yes God is pretty clever isn't he

Genisis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Giants? wtf?

Who were "the sons of God" who had sex with "the daughters of men"? Apparently nobody nice cuz god decided to kill all of them in the next few verses....

The Nephelim who were to offspring of fallen Angels and human women.

Lev 1:5 And he shall kill the bullock before the LORD: and the priests, Aaron's sons, shall bring the blood, and sprinkle the blood round about upon the altar that is by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Lev 1:6 And he shall flay the burnt offering, and cut it into his pieces.

Lev 3:5 And Aaron's sons shall burn it on the altar upon the burnt sacrifice, which is upon the wood that is on the fire: it is an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD.

5:10 And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.

Hebrews Chapter 10 10:4
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

And that is the differance between the old and new covenant. The sacrificial system of the OT didn't take away the sins but pointed towards the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus on the cross which did.

these are just a few.... FEW. yes, there a lot of great things in the bible, about love and life, and happiness. But look at what its teaching.... i mean.. cmon man, seriously.

[bcbernam777]

he is critisizing the BIBLE by logic, and he is correct to do so, as it is written by MAN.

i believe in god, no matter what each religion calls it, but i am against ANY literal interpretation of word written by man. the books each religion follow are to be taken with a grain of salt, and used for guidance when guidance is needed, and to be applied to your situation.
That is your belief that it was written by a man, it is the other writers belief that the bible is written simply using man as the instrumentality, you have already stated that you believe that there is a God, so are you saying that it is impossible for this God to use men in such a fasion? That it actually can't do that?

[oneninja]

Maverick, I know this because I have studied the bible and religion,Have you?

[wrydolphin]

You can't logically debate about religion. By it's very nature it is illogical. And if people were logical about religion, well then, we wouldn't be worrying about the Gaza, Middle East, South Asia, Africa, or, well, just about anywhere you care to pick, including your own back yard.
Everyone has their blindspot, and for many its religion. People would rather be "right" then anything else. And it does't matter how many people have to suffer to make sure they are right.

[Maverick]

Well put wrydolphin.

Maverick, I know this because I have studied the bible and religion,Have you?

Studying the bible and religion doesn't mean you know God existed or did anything at all.

[oneninja]

Thats your opinion,which you are entitled to,but you should learn as much as you can about the subject you are trying to disprove.

[NaughtyKnight]

Do you know what the Bible is good for? Its great for making roaches. :D

[Maverick]

Thats your opinion,which you are entitled to,but you should learn as much as you can about the subject you are trying to disprove.

Not really. I'm not gonna spend years reading the Bible cover to cover when a basic knowledge of common sense is more than enough to debunk every supernatural claim in it.

In other areas, I agree with you.

[samurai1986]

Ok. I am a Buddhist, who converted from Christianity because I felt that Buddhism's princibles make more sense. However, I would like to state that the Bible cannot possibly be right. God, as described in the Bible, was a logical impossiblity. God is said in the Bible to be pure(ie non malevolent), and omnipotent, however, it is impossible-by the third law of logic- to be both at the same time. As stated in the riddle of Epicurus- "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" by the third law of logic, he can't be both. If he is willing to stop evil, but unable, he is not omnipotent, and therefore, not a God. If he is able to stop evil, but unwilling, he is then malevolent, therefore not God as the Bible describes him.That is why I believe that the Bible, has to be wrong about atleast one thing. I believe something or someone must have created the Universe, just that they are not omnipotent AND pure at the same time. (P.S. I believe in Nirvana as a collection of all the best things in this universe, sort of like this universe is a prototype, and that if you have achieved the state of those in Nirvana (i.e. Buddhahood) you pass between them.)

Alright I am going to answer your question. God is BOTH pure and omnipotent. Your interpretation of the third law of logic is total bull. I am taking a logic class in college right now and the professor, who is a good friend of mine has so far not seen any evidence against what we believe. there is a quote from Bishop Fulton Sheen. It is very revealing:

"The evil in the world must not make me doubt the existence of God. There could be no evil if there was no God. Before there can be a hole in a uniform, there must be a uniform; before there is death, there must be life; before there is error, there must be truth; before there is a crime, there must be liberty and law; before there is a war, there must be peace; before there is Devil, there must be a God, rebellion against whom made the devil."

about your question about why God does not stop evil although he is very able. The answer is simple: Free Will. To have free will you have to have a choice. To have a choice there has to be at least two options. God wants humanity to be happy, but he realizes that to be truly happy you have to choose happiness. You cannot "choose" happiness if there is no other choice. Eventually all people will have made their final choice, and then evil will be destroyed along with everyone who chose it.

I hope that answered your questions. Any furthur ones can be pm'd to me.

[samurai1986]

You can't logically debate about religion. By it's very nature it is illogical. And if people were logical about religion, well then, we wouldn't be worrying about the Gaza, Middle East, South Asia, Africa, or, well, just about anywhere you care to pick, including your own back yard.
Everyone has their blindspot, and for many its religion. People would rather be "right" then anything else. And it does't matter how many people have to suffer to make sure they are right.

Wrong. Religion at its basic nature is logical which is why many Scientists are coming to believe in intelligent design. It is only when you take your religion to the level of fanaticism, or when you don't feel secure enough in your religion to accept debate from another that it becomes illogical.

[Maverick]

Wrong. Religion at its basic nature is logical

No it's not. That's absolute garbage. If it was logical it wouldn't be called 'faith'.

[wrydolphin]

Wrong. Religion at its basic nature is logical which is why many Scientists are coming to believe in intelligent design. It is only when you take your religion to the level of fanaticism, or when you don't feel secure enough in your religion to accept debate from another that it becomes illogical.
Scientists, right.
Intelligent design is not science. Yes, I know many scientists who believe in God, happen to be one (its religion I have a problem with, not God), but I know very few who would say they believe in intelligent design. Science is fact, that means it must be observable. Religion by its nature doesn't fit into science. Anyone who says they are a scientist and says that is either a bad scientist or talking about a disapline they know nothing about.

I do agree with you that people who can't talk about their beliefs reasonably have a week faith in their own religion. But that's just my opinion anyway.

[tekkengod]

Religion is a curse on humanity.

[tekkengod]

Wrong. Religion at its basic nature is logical

:bang: For once in my life, i'm at a loss of words, its people like you that make me wonder why i get up anymore.

[Hiroji]

I think religion was made up by men who are afraid of the unknown to comfort them. Humans are afraid of the unknown, of death. People just cant accept that we are here for no reason and death is the end. You go back to just like before you were born, nothing.

[GB-UK]

:bang: For once in my life, i'm at a loss of words, its people like you that make me wonder why i get up anymore.

Then don't get up :D

[GB-UK]

Religion is a curse on humanity.

Ignorance is a curse upon humanity. Religion is man's attemp to break free of the ignorance.

[wrydolphin]

Ignorance is a curse upon humanity. Religion is man's attemp to break free of the ignorance.

Or create more of it.

[Zamfoo]

Intelligent design is a nice word for creationism which is a joke. Why can't people take the point of view that yes God made everything and he made it evovle too. The problem is the same in physics. We know about most everything from now back til a second after the big bang(a monk's theory). The big bang is still a gigantic mystery and if you're answer is God so be it, it's no more provable than anything else. Don't go denying well supported theories with little to no backup.

[hapkidofighter]

i found this somewhere else- so i thought id post it in here insted of making a new thread

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have
learned a great deal from you and try to share that knowledge with as many
people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for
example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be
an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however,
regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them:

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female,
provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine
claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not to Canadians. Can you clarify?
Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus
21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her
period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I
tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They
claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2
clearly states that he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to
kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that, even though eating shellfish is an
abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I
don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there "degrees" of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a
defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my
vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around
their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How
should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me
unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different
crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two
different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse
and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of
getting the whole town together to stone them (Lev. 24:10-16)? Couldn't we
just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people
who sleep with their in-laws (Lev. 20:14)?

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable
expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

[Chruffin]

I think we should argue about it... :rolleyes:

[chasleeuk]

I find alot of religions dont make sense, Buddhism is the only one ive found to be logical and scientific in its approach...hence the reason i took refuge and became Buddhist.

I highly recommend reading up about Buddhism, especially those who are fed up of the usual god worshipping based religion, you will be suprised to find a path which is based on perfection of wisdom and compassion not blind faith.

Heres an example from a Buddhist Sutra which shows why Buddhism is so totally cool.

The Kalama Sutta

During the Buddha’s time, as now people were and are confused by the myriad religious beliefs expounded by different religious teachers who exalted their own teachings and denounced those of others. This discourse was given by the Buddha when he was asked by the Kalamas (the citizens of Kesaputta) who were confused over the many religions at that time.

The Buddha said:
Do not accept anything on mere hearsay (i.e. thinking that thus we have heard for a long time)

Do not accept anything by mere tradition (i.e. thinking that it has thus been handed down: through many generations)

Do not accept anything on account of rumours (i.e. believing what others say without investigation)

Do not accept anything just because it accords with your scriptures or holybooks

Do not accept anything by mere supposition

Do not accept anything by mere inference

Do not accept anything by merely considering the appearances

Do not accept anything merely because it agrees with your preconceived notions

Do not accept anything merely because it seems acceptable (i.e. should be accepted)

Do not accept anything thinking that the ascetic is respected; by us (and therefore it is right to accept his word)

But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept and abide by it.

[jroe52]

if thou shall not kill, why do so many forget that?

war?
revenge?
insects and pests?
terrorists?

maybe to many forget their rules
we have to be models of the livelyhood
we choose to follow,
without that we are faithless.

[samurai1986]

:bang: For once in my life, i'm at a loss of words, its people like you that make me wonder why i get up anymore.

Wow we have something in common. Also you are taking my quote out of context but I think I'll let that slide.

[samurai1986]

Here I'm going to post my argument: it is a fact God exists. Atheists, feel free to contradict me but sometimes I think you know it's true. After all, how can there be a prohibition with out something to prohibit? No, I think atheist usually don't belive in God because it puts inconvenient cramps on their lifestyle. Atheism is not a doctrine it is a cry of wrath. Anyways if we can assume there is a God, and sadly I know there are those who are still going to disagree, then we must assume that He created the universe. Assuming that He created the universe, we can assume that he created the laws of science. Ergo, we can assume that not only do religion and science mix they compliment eachother. But of course many religions these days seem to restrict science. That is because they are not confident in themselves and believe science will shatter their faith. However, there is one religion that encourages science. Did you know that the Vatican has its own observatory? Just some food for thought there.

For those of you who still doubt me about the existense of God I have some questions which I hope you will answer in a fair and reasonable way...

Say there is no God and the world is just a machine, did you ever know a machine without a designer? Did you ever know a designer without intelligence? Did you ever see a shadow that was not caused by the light? Have you ever read a book that was not first in the mind of the author?

If you can answer "yes" to any of these questions please tell me.

[Hiroji]

Here I'm going to post my argument: it is a fact God exists. Atheists, feel free to contradict me but sometimes I think you know it's true. After all, how can there be a prohibition with out something to prohibit? No, I think atheist usually don't belive in God because it puts inconvenient cramps on their lifestyle. Atheism is not a doctrine it is a cry of wrath. Anyways if we can assume there is a God, and sadly I know there are those who are still going to disagree, then we must assume that He created the universe. Assuming that He created the universe, we can assume that he created the laws of science. Ergo, we can assume that not only do religion and science mix they compliment eachother. But of course many religions these days seem to restrict science. That is because they are not confident in themselves and believe science will shatter their faith. However, there is one religion that encourages science. Did you know that the Vatican has its own observatory? Just some food for thought there.

For those of you who still doubt me about the existense of God I have some questions which I hope you will answer in a fair and reasonable way...

Say there is no God and the world is just a machine, did you ever know a machine without a designer? Did you ever know a designer without intelligence? Did you ever see a shadow that was not caused by the light? Have you ever read a book that was not first in the mind of the author?

If you can answer "yes" to any of these questions please tell me.

i have a question for you. who designed and created God?

[oneninja]

I an not here to prove or disprove anyones belief,I am simply sharing my faith and experiences with God.I will not say your wrong for your disbelief,ie;free will, I will simply discuss my beliefs and the reasons for them.If you do not believe that is your choice,without faith you cannot believe.As far as being iilogical,if my faith makes me ilogical then so be it.

[cloudz]

I agree that buhddism is cool


Define God.

Some people like to define it as a being a creator.

Others prefer an inpersonal interpretation ie everything and nothing (void)
or nature, nature of things.

I can't find much wrong with the second one.

[NaughtyKnight]

I agree with GEO here.

[chasleeuk]

Did you know that the Vatican has its own observatory? Just some food for thought there.

For those of you who still doubt me about the existense of God I have some questions which I hope you will answer in a fair and reasonable way...

Say there is no God and the world is just a machine, did you ever know a machine without a designer? Did you ever know a designer without intelligence? Did you ever see a shadow that was not caused by the light? Have you ever read a book that was not first in the mind of the author?

If you can answer "yes" to any of these questions please tell me.
Sorry but that same Vatican was also responsible for setting back scientific discoveries for centuries, wasnt Galileo locked up by the church? and Darwins evolution theory is STILL to this day not accepted by some christians (mostly americans).

If God exists and created everything, who created God? how does something come from nothing? the idea that things MUST have a creator means that the creator must also have a creator...its like a never ending loop.

Maybe i should ask you this question...who created the sunflower?

(The following is taken from "No death, no fear" by Thich Nhat Hanh)

Look at the sunflower growing in the garden. The sunflower relies on so many elements inorder to manifest itself. There is a cloud inside of the flower because without the cloud there would be no rain, and no sunflower would grow. There is sunshine in the sunflower. We know without sunshine nothing can grow; there would be no sunflower.

We see the earth, we see the minerals, we see the farmer, we see the gardener, and we see time, space, ideas, the willingness to grow and many other elements. So, Sunflowers depend on many conditions in order to manifest NOT JUST ONE!

I like to use the word "manifestation" instead of "birth" and i also like to use it instead of "creation". In our minds. "to create" also means from nothing something is brought forth.

The farmer who grows sunflowers does not create the sunflowers. If you look deeply, you see that the farmer is only one of the conditions that can bring sunflowers into being. There are seeds of the sunflowers stored in the barn, there are fields outside where you can plant the sunflowers, there are the clouds in the sky to make rain, there are fertilizers, there is sunshine to help the sunflower grow. You, the farmer, are not really the creator of the sunflower. You are just one of the conditions. Without you the sunflowers cannot manifest, but the same is true of the other conditions. All are equally important to the manifestation of the sunflower.

[Ewan]

[QUOTE=chasleeuk]

If God exists and created everything, who created God? how does something come from nothing?

[QUOTE]

This is a point that demonstrates peoples inability to grasp the concept of eternity/infinity. If there is a creator out there then he obviously cannot have a begining or an end. I personaly beleive in God. I don't beleive in the christian concept of God, the beardy chap with the holes in his extremities etc. What I do believ in is a force that is beyond our understanding that is intrinsicly conected to everything and generaly keeps the Universe ticking over. I meen, if all this was an accident, then it was indeed one hell of an accident.

[chasleeuk]

[QUOTE=chasleeuk]

If God exists and created everything, who created God? how does something come from nothing?

[QUOTE]

This is a point that demonstrates peoples inability to grasp the concept of eternity/infinity. If there is a creator out there then he obviously cannot have a begining or an end. I personaly beleive in God. I don't beleive in the christian concept of God, the beardy chap with the holes in his extremities etc. What I do believ in is a force that is beyond our understanding that is intrinsicly conected to everything and generaly keeps the Universe ticking over. I meen, if all this was an accident, then it was indeed one hell of an accident.
actually i have no problem with the concept of eternity/infinity, rather i think its the christians and other god based worshippers who do! I went to several Bible study classes...according to the Bible this universe and world is only 6000 years old (despite the fossil records, and historical records showing human civilization being older than 6000 years), this is in complete contrast to the Buddhist ideas of no beginning and no end....

This "force" that you believe in isnt really God at all, but rather it is the law of karma, the law of cause and effect which even the so called Gods(if they even exist) must follow... go google it!

[Maverick]

Say there is no God and the world is just a machine, did you ever know a machine without a designer?

OK, let's say God designed us. Who designed God? None of this 'he's eternal' codswallop either, otherwise we may as well say DNA is eternal and has no creator.

[BendzR]

So it's cool for God to create light without a sun "because its God" ?

The debate reminds me of when kids are playing in the play ground, and the events of the game unfolds in their mind as they comentate the game.

"I shot you"
"No coz I have bullet proof vest on"
"No but I have laser gun"
"But I have super laser gun proof vest on"

etc.

If the games' events are determined by the childs mind, he is immortal in the game of cops and robbers.

Same goes for the debate where "faith" and "because its God and he's eternal" are supposedly logical reasons to explain things.

[Kwajman]

Its the chicken and the egg question isn't it really?

[girlsrus]

omg i think it is a bit out of order that you think that the bible is wrong.i aint no cristion or any religion but u could hurt sum 1 's feeling ave u thought about that I THINK NOT

[aikiMac]

OK, let's say God designed us. Who designed God? None of this 'he's eternal' codswallop either, otherwise we may as well say DNA is eternal and has no creator.
To say that God is eternal is no more a "codswallop" (is that a word??) than to say that matter is eternal, or DNA is eternal, or whatever else you pick. Something is eternal. Something. I really don't see that an atheist is in any position to ridicule a theist for believing that something alive is eternal and created life, for the atheist must believe that something not alive is eternal and created life. Really, the latter is much harder to swallow. "Pot calling the kettle black" and all that.

[wrydolphin]

omg i think it is a bit out of order that you think that the bible is wrong.i aint no cristion or any religion but u could hurt sum 1 's feeling ave u thought about that I THINK NOT
I have no problem with people who believe the Bible and think that it is the actual literal facts of the history of the world. I don't agree with them and secretly (or not so secretly in this case) think they are a bit around the bend, but hey, to each their own. I don't believe in hindering peoples religions.
What I DO have a problem with is some moron who wouldn't know a scienticif thought if it bit in the butt and then kissed him walking into my classroom and proclaiming the Christian creation myth is a fact and that it belongs in my science curiculum. That, my friend, is cogswallup.
You want creation myths, I got plenty of them stored up from my anthropology days. But it doesn't belong in science. Period. There's a place for religion. That place is called church and home. It should stay there.

[Jesh]

Ignorance is a curse upon humanity. Religion is man's attemp to break free of the ignorance.

Sorry, same thing can be said of science...

[Yama Tombo]

Ok. I am a Buddhist, who converted from Christianity because I felt that Buddhism's princibles make more sense. However, I would like to state that the Bible cannot possibly be right. God, as described in the Bible, was a logical impossiblity. God is said in the Bible to be pure(ie non malevolent), and omnipotent, however, it is impossible-by the third law of logic- to be both at the same time. As stated in the riddle of Epicurus- "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" by the third law of logic, he can't be both. If he is willing to stop evil, but unable, he is not omnipotent, and therefore, not a God. If he is able to stop evil, but unwilling, he is then malevolent, therefore not God as the Bible describes him.That is why I believe that the Bible, has to be wrong about atleast one thing. I believe something or someone must have created the Universe, just that they are not omnipotent AND pure at the same time. (P.S. I believe in Nirvana as a collection of all the best things in this universe, sort of like this universe is a prototype, and that if you have achieved the state of those in Nirvana (i.e. Buddhahood) you pass between them.)

One of my favorite quotes from a movie comes from "Almighty Bruce"

Bruce talking to God:
Bruce: How do you get someone to love you without affecting free will?
God: Welcome to my world, Bruce.

You see what you stated was:

"I believe something or someone must have created the Universe, just that they are not omnipotent AND pure at the same time."

Are you saying because of the existence of good and evil in the universe that God cannot be pure? Therefore means that God is selfish and should be able to use his powers for evil as well as good?

Now, on a different note just because God is unwilling to stop evil does not mean God is incapable. (I don't see how see how that limits him in anyway, because he is unwilling.) That is why many religions in different cultures believe in a Judgement Day, or Armageddon, or rapture.

I often thought about this question,"Why does god let life go on for and why does he let evil go on?" Mostly, where these questions stem from is "Why did god create man, for his own egotistical purpose?" Not quite egotistical, but he wanted us much like when a mother wants a child, or a father wants a child.

Futhermore, to answer the questions before that: "why does god let everything happen for?" (or why is god unwilling to stop evil?) I seen a girl cry from that question, I don't know why, she must had something tramatic happen. Anyway, there is a reason, its with in the bible; you'll see that God tried to get people to worship him, but the people kept turning to false Gods, or Kings, or Magicians. God is letting life go on to show people that they are incapable of ruling themselves without the help of God; God is waiting for people of the earth to do something drastic before he does something.

It is possible to lay dormant and that is what God is doing. God is not limited in power just, because he lets life go on without doing anything. A moral and sound master of martial arts knows this, just because you're capable of hurting someone does not mean you can go around hurting others.

[GB-UK]

Sorry, same thing can be said of science...

I agree science is a curse upon humanity.

[GB-UK]

chasleeuk said:

Sorry but that same Vatican was also responsible for setting back scientific discoveries for centuries, wasnt Galileo locked up by the church? and Darwins evolution theory is STILL to this day not accepted by some christians (mostly americans).

Actually if it wasn't for the church keeping the light of education and discovery alive during the dark ages then we may not have been so advanced as we are now. As for Darwinism it's a theory, and a theory that most evolutionary scientists now seem very sceptical about.

If God exists and created everything, who created God? how does something come from nothing? the idea that things MUST have a creator means that the creator must also have a creator...its like a never ending loop.

That's the mystery of God.

[wrydolphin]

[As for Darwinism it's a theory, and a theory that most evolutionary scientists now seem very sceptical about.


You're kidding right? I don't know of a major evolutionary theorist who has EVER said that evolution might nor have occured, sure they argue about mode and speed, but not if it occured. Also, you need to look up the definition of scientific theory. Something becomes a theory when it supports a broad body of evidence and explains a large amount observations. Hince the thoery of gravity.
There is nothing, repeat:nothing, that disproves the theory of evolution. The only thing that could (stealing a quote) is to find a rabbit in the pre-Cambrian rock stratas.

[Yama Tombo]

i have a question for you. who designed and created God?

Good question, the bible does'nt answer that it says "God has no beginning and god has no ending." Now, I'm not one who believes the bible "word for word", so I believe that part was mistranslated some where along the history of religion and/or there is some part of the bible that is missing.

[samurai1986]

i have a question for you. who designed and created God?

Well that is pretty easy...nobody. You see, you are operating through the observation that everything has a beginning. But you are not following it all the way through. You see, if everything has a starting point, then there has to be something that does not. After all, if there is a loop that has to start somewhere too. If someone designed and created God then He would not be God. The Creator is God. Ergo God had no beginning, He has always been. It is beyond our comprehension, yet I'm pretty sure rocket science is beyond the comprehension of a mentally challenged person which is a small comparrison of us compared to God.

[tekkengod]

I agree science is a curse upon humanity.
Absolutely not.

[Yama Tombo]

Ironically evolution and creation theories are stuck with the same problem, they both begin with nothing.

[samurai1986]

Sorry but that same Vatican was also responsible for setting back scientific discoveries for centuries, wasnt Galileo locked up by the church? and Darwins evolution theory is STILL to this day not accepted by some christians (mostly americans).

If God exists and created everything, who created God? how does something come from nothing? the idea that things MUST have a creator means that the creator must also have a creator...its like a never ending loop.

Maybe i should ask you this question...who created the sunflower?

(The following is taken from "No death, no fear" by Thich Nhat Hanh)

Look at the sunflower growing in the garden. The sunflower relies on so many elements inorder to manifest itself. There is a cloud inside of the flower because without the cloud there would be no rain, and no sunflower would grow. There is sunshine in the sunflower. We know without sunshine nothing can grow; there would be no sunflower.

We see the earth, we see the minerals, we see the farmer, we see the gardener, and we see time, space, ideas, the willingness to grow and many other elements. So, Sunflowers depend on many conditions in order to manifest NOT JUST ONE!

I like to use the word "manifestation" instead of "birth" and i also like to use it instead of "creation". In our minds. "to create" also means from nothing something is brought forth.

The farmer who grows sunflowers does not create the sunflowers. If you look deeply, you see that the farmer is only one of the conditions that can bring sunflowers into being. There are seeds of the sunflowers stored in the barn, there are fields outside where you can plant the sunflowers, there are the clouds in the sky to make rain, there are fertilizers, there is sunshine to help the sunflower grow. You, the farmer, are not really the creator of the sunflower. You are just one of the conditions. Without you the sunflowers cannot manifest, but the same is true of the other conditions. All are equally important to the manifestation of the sunflower.

The majority of Christians you mention in America are protestants while I am Roman Catholic so I will not answer for them. As for my church, it is because of us that we are not still in Europe engaging in futile battles for land, women, etc. After Rome fell, it was the Church that preserved Civilization. While the Roman territories fell into chaos, the Church found and protected all the artwork, scientific and philosophical writings, and other things on which Civilization had built on till that point. Did you know it was a Catholic monk who is the Father of Genetics, or that the Big Bang theory is Catholic in origin although I believe that has been mentioned on this topic, (btw thanks to whoever did that).

By the way, did you know that before the "Protestant Reformation", no Catholic country charged its citizens more than a 10% tax? Just a minor economic note.

[Maverick]

To say that God is eternal is no more a "codswallop" (is that a word??) than to say that matter is eternal, or DNA is eternal, or whatever else you pick. Something is eternal. Something. I really don't see that an atheist is in any position to ridicule a theist for believing that something alive is eternal and created life, for the atheist must believe that something not alive is eternal and created life. Really, the latter is much harder to swallow. "Pot calling the kettle black" and all that.

For reference, it's English slang lol.

There is a big difference in codswallop level between saying that energy/matter etc is eternal, and saying that there was a Creator.

That difference is parsimony.

It's a much greater stretch of logic and the imagination to say that 'God' is eternal, than to say that energy or matter is eternal. There's no need to add even more irrationality to the solution by bringing God into it, then you have to deal with the bible, miracles, Jesus, Moses, and all the other supernatural things that supposedly happened but didn't.

So instead of saying God is eternal, if you absolutely must insist that something has been 'alive' forever, why not DNA instead. Because at least we can see DNA. It's much more parsimonious to assume that DNA has been around since the dawn of time, if there ever was one.

You've said this before yourself, how does 'life come from non-life'. Apply this to your scenario of God existing forever. How does that happen? He's eternal, right? So both evolution and atheism, and creationism and theism, both have life from non-life at one point. The difference being the atheist explanation does not require giant leaps of faith and fairytale to believe.

Not that I think DNA, or any kind of 'life' is/was eternal of course. Just showing how silly it is to cop out with the 'xxx was always here' or 'xxx is a mystery' or 'how can we understand xxxx, we're only human' non-arguments.

[Yama Tombo]

Absolutely not.

Religion and Science can make or break humanity.

Disease Treatment, etc. V.S. Religion Creates Philosophy, etc.

Biochemical Warfare, etc. V.S. Crusades, etc.

You get the gist of it.

[samurai1986]

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthGorn
I agree science is a curse upon humanity.

Absolutely not.

I'm going to surprize you tekkengod and agree with you on this. I said in an earlier post that Science and religion compliment eachother. So I will stand by that and say that as God created the Universe and hence the rules of Science then science is not an abomination or curse, as long it works for Human Life and not against it. For instance I support Adult Stem Cell Research but not Embrionic Stem Cells.

[wrydolphin]

Ironically evolution and creation theories are stuck with the same problem, they both begin with nothing.
Not really, the theory of evolution starts with self replicating protiens and goes on from there. We pretty much know the how of things. IF you want to insert God, ask why.

[Zamfoo]

Where did the proteins come from tho? It's always the origin that is unknown, you can track evolution from then but nothing explains from where those original protein came.

[wrydolphin]

From atoms. Beyond that, you'd have to start talking to an astrophysicist. If you want to insert God somewhere in there, happy days to you.

[tekkengod]

Religion and Science can make or break humanity.

Disease Treatment, etc. V.S. Religion Creates Philosophy, etc.

Biochemical Warfare, etc. V.S. Crusades, etc.

You get the gist of it.

Ok, lets dissect this a little further

Disease Treatment: Pros = longer lifespan, saving lives, looking for answers.
Cons = ? anyone? maybe a few economic drawbacks which are totally acceptable given the results.

Religion Creates Philosophy: Pros = Deeper thinking. Cons = Brainwashing, acceptance of social wisdom, group conformity on a massive scale, abandonment of critical thinking.
{clearly there are no pros to chemical warfare or the crusades, so lets just play balance beam and application of the negatives}

Biochemical warfare = Has yet applied on a comparitively wide scale, the result of an event already set in motion by economic, political or territorial issues, hence a warfare tactic, not an event in itself.

Crusades: = Completely and totally pointless, a lot of life lost to gain absolutely nothing, millions of people died because someone thought their invsible man has a bigger dick than the other guys invisable man, pointless death.

[tekkengod]

I'm going to surprize you tekkengod and agree with you on this. I said in an earlier post that Science and religion compliment eachother. So I will stand by that and say that as God created the Universe and hence the rules of Science then science is not an abomination or curse, as long it works for Human Life and not against it. For instance I support Adult Stem Cell Research but not Embrionic Stem Cells.

Good, we agree on something.

Now, science is going to work to advance things, thats what it does. so you could argue til your blue about weather or not the advancement of warfare worked for or against man. ect.

I support Embrionic Stem Cell research, you can't expect to gain theoretical immortality without a heavy cost. Once all the religious nuts back down, you'll be surprised at how politcal correctness will go out he window, we hold the key to pandora's box in our hand, and once again, religion is impeding our progress.

[aikiMac]

There is a big difference in codswallop level between saying that energy/matter etc is eternal, and saying that there was a Creator.

That difference is parsimony.
Indeed. Given that something is eternal, 'tis more "parsimonious" to say that the eternal thingy (whatever it is) is alive and therefore life came from life, than to say that the eternal thingy (whatever it is) is not alive and have to explain how life came from non-life. The assumption that the eternal thing is not alive requires that one take an extra step and explain how non-life begets life. That's not good. And it's unnecessary if one instead assumes that the eternal thing is alive to begin with. Theism is therefore more parsimonious and therefore by some people's definition, more rational.


It's a much greater stretch of logic and the imagination to say that 'God' is eternal, than to say that energy or matter is eternal.
You have it backwards, amigo, but I like you anyway.

[Maverick]

Why don't we just give up and say God is the answer to everything we can't understand like they did 2000 years ago?

[Zamfoo]

Because then the Earth would go back to being flat and having the sun orbit it. As long as there are mysteries people are going to argue about them

[aikiMac]

Why don't we just give up and say God is the answer to everything we can't understand like they did 2000 years ago?
Why would you want to do that? There are some things we can know.
(Who's being irrational now? :D :Angel: )

[tekkengod]

Ok, lets dissect this a little further

Disease Treatment: Pros = longer lifespan, saving lives, looking for answers.
Cons = ? anyone? maybe a few economic drawbacks which are totally acceptable given the results.

Religion Creates Philosophy: Pros = Deeper thinking. Cons = Brainwashing, acceptance of social wisdom, group conformity on a massive scale, abandonment of critical thinking.
{clearly there are no pros to chemical warfare or the crusades, so lets just play balance beam and application of the negatives}

Biochemical warfare = Has yet applied on a comparitively wide scale, the result of an event already set in motion by economic, political or territorial issues, hence a warfare tactic, not an event in itself.

Crusades: = Completely and totally pointless, a lot of life lost to gain absolutely nothing, millions of people died because someone thought their invsible man has a bigger dick than the other guys invisable man, pointless death.

Wanna make sure Samurai saw this.

[Yama Tombo]

From atoms. Beyond that, you'd have to start talking to an astrophysicist. If you want to insert God somewhere in there, happy days to you.

Where did the atom come? So evolution has to show where an atom came from and Creation has to explain how a being has "No beginning."

What I really want to know what makes the inside of electrons, proton, and neutrons?

[NaughtyKnight]

They are made of energy. Who knows how god fits into our lives, and frankly who really cares. Our scientfic time could be much better spent finding cures for AIDS. On that note I have a quality joke to insert here, but cant, too naughty :D.

[Yama Tombo]

Ok, lets dissect this a little further

Disease Treatment: Pros = longer lifespan, saving lives, looking for answers.
Cons = ? anyone? maybe a few economic drawbacks which are totally acceptable given the results.

Religion Creates Philosophy: Pros = Deeper thinking. Cons = Brainwashing, acceptance of social wisdom, group conformity on a massive scale, abandonment of critical thinking.
{clearly there are no pros to chemical warfare or the crusades, so lets just play balance beam and application of the negatives}

Biochemical warfare = Has yet applied on a comparitively wide scale, the result of an event already set in motion by economic, political or territorial issues, hence a warfare tactic, not an event in itself.

Crusades: = Completely and totally pointless, a lot of life lost to gain absolutely nothing, millions of people died because someone thought their invsible man has a bigger dick than the other guys invisable man, pointless death.


Cons for disease treatments: side effects of the drugs used. Which usually leads to sometimes fatal side effects or long term affects.

Examining the cons of Religion for philosophy: May cause brain washing. Though, religion does not cause brainwashing that would be man. Infact, the bible supports free thinkers and the right to exercise free will, if anything.

Science: mental warfare does the same thing (brain washing, which science furthers such techniques)

[NaughtyKnight]

You think that the bible promotes free will? ROFL

Religion is the source of persecution and punishment. I think telling people they will burn in hell forever if they dont follow what god says, anti freewill to the max.

[Yama Tombo]

You think that the bible promotes free will? ROFL

Religion is the source of persecution and punishment. I think telling people they will burn in hell forever if they dont follow what god says, anti freewill to the max.


It promotes it, trust me; I would go as farther as to show all the passages that praise those that use their mind.

I think telling people that they will burn in hell is foolish, I've been told the same thing by christians. I think I'm going to burn in hell for a number of things.

Personally, I don't believe in hell look up the word Gehenna.

The bible promotes free will, trust me.

[NaughtyKnight]

Do I sense a challange. I think I do.

Post some examples of free will be demonstrated and praised in the bible.

New Testament would be easier than the Old.

[Yama Tombo]

Do I sense a challange. I think I do.

Post some examples of free will be demonstrated and praised in the bible.

New Testament would be easier than the Old.

Proverbs 14:15;
1 Corinthians 2:1-16;
Acts 17:11;
Adam and Eve which you are fimilar with....?

[NaughtyKnight]

Guess it might help me if I actually had a bible :p

[Yama Tombo]

www.bibles.net

[NaughtyKnight]

Cant be bothered, you win the argument. Even im not stubbon enough to actually read the bible to prove a point. :Angel:

[jroe52]

why waste our lives debating others that are not going to change, and should they?

as long as we are not harming others and not supporting others to, then we are fine. as long as we help others, and not harm them, then it does not matter if the bible is right or wrong.

what does matter is we do good and set good examples to be modeled after. we cannot force our beliefs on others, nor can we expect others to change their beliefs because of our own ideas.

as a buddhist, i see christians as having opportunities to be good humans and good christians, but it is up to them. the pure and simple answer is; do not be a hyprocrit.

if thou shall not kill, why do you kill or support war, kill insects or eat veal? hehe

i've read the bible, and i can say, much of it probably is written and alot of it is not to be read literally. instead, it offers insight to enlighten the reader so they can be a good christian while helping and forgiving others. those whom forget to help and forgive, end up being what a christian is not to be.

and what is that?
they are not to turn away others, they are not to cause them harm, they are not to hurt others physically, materially or mentally. at the same time, christians are to respect others and give them assistance, regardless of faith.

when all of these are met, they truely are on the path of faith and forgiveness. when they fall astray, i hope thier blindess is healed by jesus or else they are going to have a longggg eternity haha

[Yama Tombo]

Cant be bothered, you win the argument. Even im not stubbon enough to actually read the bible to prove a point. :Angel:

You have an extreme disliking for religion.....

[NaughtyKnight]

You have an extreme disliking for religion.....

I attribute my great life to it. :Angel:

[tekkengod]

i'll look it up later, but in no was shape or form does the bible promote free will, religion is the oldest form of socital control and brainwashing of all. nad the cons of the afore mentioned still outweight science by a long shot.

[aikiMac]

as long as we are not harming others and not supporting others to, then we are fine. as long as we help others, and not harm them, then it does not matter if the bible is right or wrong.
If the Bible is wrong you are correct. If the Bible is right you are incorrect. And therein is the debate.


if thou shall not kill, why do you kill or support war, kill insects or eat veal? hehe
"Thou shalt not kill" is not a commandment in the Bible. Saint Augustine's "just war doctrine" demonstrates this quite sufficiently. What God wrote on Moses' stone slab was "thou shalt not murder." As for killing animals, vegetarianism is the ideal. Before Noah's flood everyone was vegetarian. Well, I should say everyone was supposed to be a vegetarian. Probably not everyone obeyed the rule. Here's a thought: maybe the Jewish dietary restrictions in the Old Testament were implemented to limit the amount of animal killing when the ideal cannot be reached, eh? Could it be?


Sorry but that same Vatican was also responsible for setting back scientific discoveries for centuries, wasnt Galileo locked up by the church?
Suppose Galileo was locked up. Wasn't Galileo a Christian? He was, wasn't he? Yes? No? I think he was. Suppose Galileo was a Christian. What then is your point? Do you have a point actually worth making?

Here's my point: If Galileo was a Christian, then we have Christians arguing about astronomy. One side says blah-blah-blah that, it turns out, is factually correct. One side was right. The other side, it turns out, was wrong. And you want to spotlight the side that was wrong and say, "See, all Christians are stupid. Proof: these guys were stupid." That is wrong of you, for you could just as well spotlight Galileo and say, "Look at this brilliant Christian scientist! Where would we be today if not for Galileo!"

Consider Mendel, the so-called "father of genetics." You know him -- he's the guy who cross-bred pea pods. He was a Catholic monk! Yes, a Catholic monk living in an abbey! Obviously his religious faith was not a hindrance to his scientific work. Why can't we spotlight him and say something nice about the Catholic Church, eh?

[samurai1986]

If the Bible is wrong you are correct. If the Bible is right you are incorrect. And therein is the debate.



"Thou shalt not kill" is not a commandment in the Bible. Saint Augustine's "just war doctrine" demonstrates this quite sufficiently. What God wrote on Moses' stone slab was "thou shalt not murder." As for killing animals, vegetarianism is the ideal. Before Noah's flood everyone was vegetarian. Well, I should say everyone was supposed to be a vegetarian. Probably not everyone obeyed the rule. Here's a thought: maybe the Jewish dietary restrictions in the Old Testament were implemented to limit the amount of animal killing when the ideal cannot be reached, eh? Could it be?



Suppose Galileo was locked up. Wasn't Galileo a Christian? He was, wasn't he? Yes? No? I think he was. Suppose Galileo was a Christian. What then is your point? Do you have a point actually worth making?

Here's my point: If Galileo was a Christian, then we have Christians arguing about astronomy. One side says blah-blah-blah that, it turns out, is factually correct. One side was right. The other side, it turns out, was wrong. And you want to spotlight the side that was wrong and say, "See, all Christians are stupid. Proof: these guys were stupid." That is wrong of you, for you could just as well spotlight Galileo and say, "Look at this brilliant Christian scientist! Where would we be today if not for Galileo!"

Consider Mendel, the so-called "father of genetics." You know him -- he's the guy who cross-bred pea pods. He was a Catholic monk! Yes, a Catholic monk living in an abbey! Obviously his religious faith was not a hindrance to his scientific work. Why can't we spotlight him and say something nice about the Catholic Church, eh?

Nice points aikiMac. I especially like the analysis of Galileo.

[wrydolphin]

If the Bible is wrong you are correct. If the Bible is right you are incorrect. And therein is the debate.

Exactly, and that sort of dichotomy is what is ruining our standing internationally as scientists.

"Thou shalt not kill" is not a commandment in the Bible. Saint Augustine's "just war doctrine" demonstrates this quite sufficiently. What God wrote on Moses' stone slab was "thou shalt not murder." As for killing animals, vegetarianism is the ideal. Before Noah's flood everyone was vegetarian. Well, I should say everyone was supposed to be a vegetarian. Probably not everyone obeyed the rule. Here's a thought: maybe the Jewish dietary restrictions in the Old Testament were implemented to limit the amount of animal killing when the ideal cannot be reached, eh? Could it be?

Where did you get this? There is no archeaological evidence that says any population was made up only of vegetarians. Humans were always omnivores. Sure, a few people ate more vegitables then others, but that was not a societal thing. Jewish dietary laws were social moreys that became religious laws, They helped prevent diseases.

Suppose Galileo was locked up. Wasn't Galileo a Christian? He was, wasn't he? Yes? No? I think he was. Suppose Galileo was a Christian. What then is your point? Do you have a point actually worth making?

Here's my point: If Galileo was a Christian, then we have Christians arguing about astronomy. One side says blah-blah-blah that, it turns out, is factually correct. One side was right. The other side, it turns out, was wrong. And you want to spotlight the side that was wrong and say, "See, all Christians are stupid. Proof: these guys were stupid." That is wrong of you, for you could just as well spotlight Galileo and say, "Look at this brilliant Christian scientist! Where would we be today if not for Galileo!"

Consider Mendel, the so-called "father of genetics." You know him -- he's the guy who cross-bred pea pods. He was a Catholic monk! Yes, a Catholic monk living in an abbey! Obviously his religious faith was not a hindrance to his scientific work. Why can't we spotlight him and say something nice about the Catholic Church, eh?
Never said that the Catholic Church didn't prserve scientific (or for that matter, ancient and pagan) thoughts and processes. For the most part it seems to fall into the pervue of modern Protestant denominations to curtail science, or at least that seems to be the main body of people who are protesting at the moment.
Bold is me.... couldn't figure a better way to address the points. Sorry if was too confusing.

[tekkengod]

Let be explain this is simple terms, reguardless of what Gallelios preferance was, someone realized where his research was going and tried to put a stop to it. the catholics may have preserved a few things, but once again, as with anything related to religion, the pros don't outweight the cons. impede progress for 200 years/save a few documents. balance beam guys.

[aikiMac]

Exactly, and that sort of dichotomy is what is ruining our standing internationally as scientists.
:confused: I don't know what you mean. I have long thought that our crappy high schools are ruining our standing as scientists.


Where did you get this? There is no archeaological evidence that says any population was made up only of vegetarians. Humans were always omnivores. Sure, a few people ate more vegitables then others, but that was not a societal thing. Jewish dietary laws were social moreys that became religious laws, They helped prevent diseases.
Heh heh heh! Where did I get this! Heh heh heh! Seriously though, I got it by reading the source book for the big, nasty, evil, rotten, boo-hiss-spit "Church" that is being stomped on in this thread. Come now, Jewish dietary laws are way beyond social moreys to prevent disease -- they are part of Deuteronomy and Leviticus, the Law of Moses. How could the neighboring nations eat pig, etc. and not get sick, but Jews would get sick if they ate pig, etc.? Hey, that's a fair question that you have deal with if you're going to stand by your theory! Really now, Assyria, Babylon, Grece, Rome -- they didn't follow the dietary laws yet they thoroughly conquered, in turn, that region of the world. If health was an issue the Jews should have been the strongest people over there.

But, that's just my warped way of thinking. My buddy Tekken says that I'm brainwashed so I don't suppose that I could ever be right. :)

[tekkengod]

:confused: I don't know what you mean. I have long thought that our crappy high schools are ruining our standing as scientists.

My buddy Tekken says that I'm brainwashed so I don't suppose that I could ever be right. :)

no. our crappy high school are ruining your status as a religion. something i am quite proud of.

actually, i agree with what you just said about the jews :)

[aikiMac]

actually, i agree with what you just said about the jews :)
:eek: No way! :eek:
This calls for a celebration. Root beer on me, for everyone! :D

[tekkengod]

as long as we are not harming others and not supporting others to, then we are fine. as long as we help others, and not harm them, then it does not matter if the bible is right or wrong.

oh yeah, well there in lies the problem. thats what you're doing. hurting, killing, and brainwashing. kinda hard to overlook 2 millenia of that don't ya think?

[Yama Tombo]

:eek: No way! :eek:
This calls for a celebration. Root beer on me, for everyone! :D

Tekkengod agree with aikiMac more often! :D

[wrydolphin]

The Church isn't being spit upon, at least not by me. Yes, I do not look blindly at the history of the Church and say that everything it did was good or just, yet neither do I quite believe that it is the bastion of Evil that some make it out to be.
In a very real sense, we owe much of what we know of the ancients (Greek, Roman and pagan) to the Church. For thousands of years, it kept the light of science, reason, history and philosophy alive. Yet, it is also one of the worst violators of what would now be considered natural human rights. It is a human institution, and as such, has all the weaknesses of humans. So, in the end, it is both, such as we all are.

Dietary laws, all societies have social moreys. When they are codified, they turn into religious or political laws. Dietary laws in all societies tend towards having once been a practical way of preventing food born disease. Then other social contraints become added. Also, if you look at the archeaological records of hte area, you'll notice that the tribes who became what we consider Isreal were not indigenous to the area. But be that as it may, indeed, there are other peoples who share some of the same dietary laws.

Sciene being controled by those idiots we elected (both sides of the fence mind you, I don't put much trust in politics period) is bad knews. Also, we have already gone 'round the bend on the whole public school issue in another thread. I agree to think you're wrong, you agree to think I am. I was quite happy to leave that at the state of affairs, weren't you? I don't think either of us could advance any arguement that we haven't already covered.

If you want my personal belief for clarification: I don't believe the Bible factually, but do allagorically. There is quite a bit in there that is, at the risk of sounding facisous, good stuff. I just jumped on the thread because I believe that religion has a place in society, it just doesn't happen to be in the sciences.

[thetallguy]

I believe the bible. I won't explain the intricacies of why (at this time) I do not commit myself to the teachings of Christ.
If I say to you that I followed the teachings at a point in my life.. and experienced what I call supernatural encounters.. as explained and described in the bible then I am either mad, lying or actually did. I won't explain what or when it happened.. for the sake of too much argument (my time online is limited).
I believe from the first word of Genesis to the last Amen in Revelation.
I believe it because I have experienced it and lived it.. so I guess to be told it is "wrong" assumes me to be crazy. Or for it to be "wrong" in any other sense assumes that you are right.. I am not persuaded that Buddha should be "right" above God. For where does right and wrong come from? If it is your own conscience.. then we are in trouble.. for my conscience tells me it is fine for me to kick someone in the face when they are down.. yet yours may not. My right and wrong comes from obedience to god or disobedience to God, not a set code. I love Buddha's idea for sure but why would I follow him? I place my trust in the one who claims to be in control of death and life.. not nirvana. I place my trust in Jesus who claimed a perfect sinless life.. not Mohammed who said that God had changed his character since the Bible.. or anyone else who has come since. Where else can I turn but the bible? Again I say, if you think it is ok to live by your conscience.. you better tell that to Saddam, Bush and whoever else hates each other or brands the other evil.. cos that is the result of living your own life, each war comes about cos different people "followed" their own right and wrong.
So.. I believe the bible through experience, comfort and what to me is historical evidence.

[tekkengod]

1. If I say to you that I followed the teachings at a point in my life.. and experienced what I call supernatural encounters.. as explained and described in the bible then I am either mad, lying or actually did.

2. so I guess to be told it is "wrong" assumes me to be crazy.

3. So.. I believe the bible through experience, comfort and what to me is historical evidence.

1. I'm confident that theres only 2 possibilites here. :rolleyes:

2. Yes, Yes it does.

3. This is the perfect example of what i'm talking about.

Experiance = Mental instability

Comfort = Emotional Crutch to coutner mental instability.

Historical Evidence = ......

[bcbernam777]

what if i told you tekken that i have seen a little boy with 50% vision, who was bought into a prayer meeting wearing those coke bottle glasses be totally healed by the end of the meeting to the point he was running outside in the evening light playing with other children without the glasses on? And what if I told you that I know someone who spinal cord was severed (proven with Xray's) who is walking around today and the Western Australian medical community are still scratching there heads because at the very least he should be a quadraplegic, he was prayed for by a group of christians at his hospital bed when he had the accident?

[NaughtyKnight]

Any evidence of these, a link would be good.

What if I told you that 10 people exploded from reading the bible.

[BendzR]

If you pray for every single person that needs a better quality of life, then eventually you will get "miracles" when a freak healing occurs.

If I pray for every quadraplegic on the planet, and 1 somehow "heals" from it against what we are used to in medicine, then can I claim it was God ?

That's cherry picking.

How about all the times people pray and nothing happens. How about the times tsunamis kill (murder, if its intended) hundreds of thousands of people for no reason.

"God has a plan" doesn't convince me, because if part of his plan is for people to suffer and die, then what's the point in the first place. If something bad happens, I can accept that excuse. But when people get killed, it doesnt cut it as a explanation.

In Science you look at evidence and then draw a conclusion. In the debate for God, people look at the conclusion, and then search for evidences. The former is the more logical approach, where as the latter is what my friend Socrastein will call "ignorant".

[t3lboy]

Only read a few post on this thread so apologise if this has been said before, I went to a Church of Engalnd Sunday School, I am not religious now. We asked "why does God let bad things happen to good people?", the response was a fairly good one, and have heard it again since.

{Paraphrasing and changing to an adults prospective}

"As a parent you wouldn't stop your child skate boarding or climbing trees, you know they could get hurt, but you still let them do it anyway. This is all in the process of growing up." Apparently this was his view of how God treats us, "we grow through challenges".

Like I said I am not religious, but this has been the only argument that has come close to a good argument.

<Breathes, first serious post>

T3lboy

[GB-UK]

i'll look it up later, but in no was shape or form does the bible promote free will, religion is the oldest form of socital control and brainwashing of all. nad the cons of the afore mentioned still outweight science by a long shot.

Your quite ignorant aren't you. You've propably never even looked into a copy of the scriptures to find out what it says. Before you make any kind of statement like that I beleive that you should do some study on the subject. Hey with all the free time you have at school then you should be able to do that.

[GB-UK]

Let be explain this is simple terms, reguardless of what Gallelios preferance was, someone realized where his research was going and tried to put a stop to it. the catholics may have preserved a few things, but once again, as with anything related to religion, the pros don't outweight the cons. impede progress for 200 years/save a few documents. balance beam guys.

They went a bit further than saving a few documents, science as we know it today would not exist if it wasn't for the church's efforts to keep safe the nowledge lost by people during the dark ages. We would be even more advanced if they had managed to keep a lot more than they did.

[NaughtyKnight]

Whats this about churches helping us? Are you having an absolute girafe?

When christianity was introduced, the quality of life dropped 10 fold.

Spanish Inquistionn (sp?) witch hunts etc, wow your right, the church is really great :rolleyes:

[GB-UK]

1. I'm confident that theres only 2 possibilites here. :rolleyes:

2. Yes, Yes it does.

3. This is the perfect example of what i'm talking about.

Experiance = Mental instability

Comfort = Emotional Crutch to coutner mental instability.

Historical Evidence = ......

So your saying that the tall guy is a liar, is mad and has an emotional crutch?

So you say that he is lying because he has had experience of supernatural events like recorded in the bible? Well so have I does that make me a liar to?
Does this mean I'm mentally unstable? No.

You say that science has done away with religion, I would disagree, I would say without religion there would be no science.

You say that experience = mental stability. But don't scientists look for experience when they do experiments? When they mix two chemicals together they experince the results, they don't just sit and look at the bottles and wonder about what might happen.

I gain comfort from my faith not as an emotional crutch to counter some unseen mental instability. My experience of the supernatural give me evidence of a more powerful force at work within the universe, something that science cannot explain.

Maybe when you've grown up a bit, left school and seen a bit more of the big wide world you will come to see that there is more to this world than what is written in some science text books.

[GB-UK]

Whats this about churches helping us? Are you having an absolute girafe?

When christianity was introduced, the quality of life dropped 10 fold.

Spanish Inquistionn (sp?) witch hunts etc, wow your right, the church is really great :rolleyes:

I guess all those people in india helped by mother teresa don't count. Or the millions around the world who get food aid from charities like christian aid don't either. These peoples live have really dropped by a 10 fold haven't they?

What of the Spanish inquistion, do I believe that they acted in the best interested of the church? No. Do I believe they represented the church? No. But they did think this and it was acceptable then.

As for witch hunts I believe that people are led into danger when they dabble in occult practices, I believe that they can open themselves up to some really bad stuff. Do I believe in witch hunts? No. Do I believe that the people who did these things in the past did it for the best? I don't know. The thing is we cannot really judge people of a couple of hundred years ago with the moral standards of today. They were working from a completly different set of moral values and to them it was morally right to do the things they did.

[NaughtyKnight]

Err, the spanish inquisitioners (sp?) were ordered by the church.

And religion didnt spark global aid.

I cant wait until they ban religion, stupid beyong belief. Sure, believe if you want to, but craming it down everyones throat at every turn gets annyoing very quickly.

American schools refusing to teach evolution, just another example of the stupidity religion causes.

[tekkengod]

Your quite ignorant aren't you. You've propably never even looked into a copy of the scriptures to find out what it says. Before you make any kind of statement like that I beleive that you should do some study on the subject. Hey with all the free time you have at school then you should be able to do that.

actually, i do read the bible, it is the single greatest tool for atheism on the planet.

[tekkengod]

1. So your saying that the tall guy is a liar, is mad and has an emotional crutch?

2. So you say that he is lying because he has had experience of supernatural events like recorded in the bible? Well so have I does that make me a liar to?
Does this mean I'm mentally unstable? No.


3. You say that experience = mental stability. But don't scientists look for experience when they do experiments? When they mix two chemicals together they experince the results, they don't just sit and look at the bottles and wonder about what might happen.

4. Maybe when you've grown up a bit, left school and seen a bit more of the big wide world you will come to see that there is more to this world than what is written in some science text books.

1. Yes, I am

2. well you can't be both, if your a liar, it didn't happen.
If your mentally unstable then you think it DID happen. I'm going to go with option A for now.
3.that makes 0 sense, it can be proven if it is a scientific experiment. as can mental instability, i suggest you look into that.
4. maybe when you stop letting yourself lean so intently on your moral high ground and cructch of faith. you'll see how ridiculous it sounds. let me phrase it the way it must have sounded when first introduced to primitive people. "Theres an invisable man, who lives in the sky, he neds money, so be sure to give lots of yours to people u don't know, and he loves you even though he intends to set you on fire" sounds like a very well thought out and logical explination right? I'll talk about the bible and the commandments when i have more time, I think the bells gonna ring soon

[bcbernam777]

Whats this about churches helping us? Are you having an absolute girafe?

When christianity was introduced, the quality of life dropped 10 fold.

Spanish Inquistionn (sp?) witch hunts etc, wow your right, the church is really great :rolleyes:
And of course people like mother theresa(remember the poor in India), Jackie Pulinger (given her life to give aid and direction for the slums of Hong Kong), David Wilkernson(helped to free hundreds of thousands of Drug addicts form their addictions), the salvation army, St Vincent De Paul...(the list goes on) have done nothing for peoples quality of life.

[bcbernam777]

If you pray for every single person that needs a better quality of life, then eventually you will get "miracles" when a freak healing occurs.

If I pray for every quadraplegic on the planet, and 1 somehow "heals" from it against what we are used to in medicine, then can I claim it was God ?

That's cherry picking.

How about all the times people pray and nothing happens. How about the times tsunamis kill (murder, if its intended) hundreds of thousands of people for no reason.

"God has a plan" doesn't convince me, because if part of his plan is for people to suffer and die, then what's the point in the first place. If something bad happens, I can accept that excuse. But when people get killed, it doesnt cut it as a explanation.

In Science you look at evidence and then draw a conclusion. In the debate for God, people look at the conclusion, and then search for evidences. The former is the more logical approach, where as the latter is what my friend Socrastein will call "ignorant".
So where does a freak healing come from if the healings are a scientific impossability??

[Anth]

I am getting sick of people calling others "ignorant".

In another thread, people were spoken to over use of the word (not by myself), so I am going to carry on with that by locking this thread.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v201/AnthGaskell/MAP/MAP_lock.jpg