Hapkido's weakness?

[korg20kbc]

Hello,
Just wondering what other Hapkido practitioners see as the weakness(es) of the art.

I have been studying Hapkido for 8 years and I feel that there are too many techniques.

Any opinions?

[iron_ox]

Hello,

Can you be more specific? Where and with who do you train - I mean for example, what lineage - that may help explain some of your concern.

[robertmap]

Hello,
Just wondering what other Hapkido practitioners see as the weakness(es) of the art.
I have been studying Hapkido for 8 years and I feel that there are too many techniques.
Any opinions?
I won't comment specifically about Hapkido - but several arts have LOTS (and I mean LOTS) of separately documented and identified techniques - This always confuses the heck out of me - but that's because I personally prefer concepts.

On the other hand, I have met walking dictionaries - people who CAN remember and USE a zillion techniques - so for them, that kind of system works...

Let's all sing "It's not the art it's the Artist" :) :)

All the best.

Robert.

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

There are 3808 techniques in the Hapkido of Dojunim Choi, Yong Sul, is that too many? :)

[Kosh]

The HKD is learn has alot of techniques, but i see this as a strength. But this is because it suits my personal mind set. The term 'remembering' is a bit of a misnomer in terms of MA. Remembering a technique isnt the same as remembering a peom for example. Techniques are physical actions. Take sign language. I dont know much about sign language but im sure there must be at least a couple of thousand 'signs'. Signers can perform one of how ever many signs without even stopping to think about it.

Let's all sing "It's not the art it's the Artist"

Its an aweful cliche, and isnt a magic wand...but it is true i think.

But i havent trained in HKD for long enough to diagnose a weakness, so far i havent had any problems that i havent been able to solve from with HKD, or at least work towards a solution.

[Jointlock]

I don't think that having many techniques is a weakness at all, as long as one trains with the right mindset.

For instance, have you ever been Hapkido sparring in class and said to yourself "Okay the next time he does this, I'm going to do an armbar on him" and it never fails that that person does the exact opposite of what you planned for. I have heard several stories of martial artists freezing up in the face of confrontation because they try to plan out the situation ahead of time and it never goes as planned. Then they're standing there not knowing what to do, or worse they're getting their face punched in.

In my opinion a Hapkidoist should have a completly different mindset, which is to react to the opponent. You don't plan on doing technique #10, the opponent just falls into position for you to do that technique. If that technique doesn't work there is most definately a technique in the reverse direction. If you follow the theories of Hapkido you should be fine (Flowing like water, Circular, Non-Resistance).

On the issue of jointlocks, there are only so many physically possible ways to bend or twist an arm to cause pain. Once you've learned a couple of sets of techinques it should be apparent what you would have to do to cause pain in a technique. Once this is understood the varitions on techniques become endless.

In my opinion the techniques are there to teach you how to apply the theories.

[korg20kbc]

I believe that the sheer number of techniques it detrimental to the effective application of what has been studied. Many techniques are only really useful in passing grading tests or in a demonstration.

I also think that a technique can be effectively applied only when if has been repeated many thousands of times. Compare a martial artist to somone who is learning boxing. A boxer can learn all their techniques in their first lesson. They have basically 4 techniques - jab, hook, cross and uppercut. All the rest of their time goes to repetition and setting up the application of the techniques. Unfortunately, from my point of view, boxers are generally much better fighters than martial artists in the equivalent length of time. Why? Because they repeat their techniques more. So if we a Hapkidoists have thousands of techniques, how well are we going to learn each one?

Let me say that I think that learning a martial art is much more than fighting ability and that it is a good thing in itself to increase our knowledge. But should we be generalist and specialists?

[Rebel Wado]

Some good points already made.

Bottom line is that people tend to get better at what they do more often. So whatever you spend your training time on the most is what you will get better at. If you split that time up too much, you will be slow to learn anything.

The part about the number of techniques is interesting as there is a point where most techniques will just seem variations of a few techniques, BECAUSE the principles (concepts) will be understood. I think that is part of what is described as a foundation, when you understand and can apply the concepts behind the techniques.

When the concepts are understood and practiced, you will use very few techniques, as you will see most everything as variations, not independent of each other.

[fester]

A rebel with a cause:)
nice post
so thats why I like the Jea Nam Moosulwon system
You only have to know 12 techniques:):)
see Y'all
Deahan clan forever
:woo: evil kingston: here's a spoiler for you: You will die alone:)

[evilkingston]

it's better to practice one technique a 1000 times, than a thousand techniques 1 time - GM Jae Nam Myung

hankido rules!

fester: you're @work - so act like it and PRETEND to be working...
:) :p

[wild_pitch]

I think the thing people do not understand it that running through all the 1000s of techniques there is really only a few root concepts.

[Kosh]

I Unfortunately, from my point of view, boxers are generally much better fighters than martial artists in the equivalent length of time. Why? Because they repeat their techniques more.

Yeah but, who said anything about fighting?...HKD is about practical selfdefence. You cant go around laying people out because they threatened you.

Plus i have found that, for me personally, the lines between moves are starting to blur and the underlying principals (which are fairly simple) are starting to emerge. Once these principals are understood, you can even make moves up on the spot.

[hapkidofighter]

i think that hapkido is a pretty well rounded system- i study with GM bong soo han- i think like every one said above- people are in such a rush to learn more and more techniques that they neglect the most basic and lots of the time most effective techniques- thats why i like to go back to like orange belt techniques and really drill the hell out off all my old techniques- i also think that although ground fighting is included in our system- its not stressed nearly eough- and its only tought to the higher dans. besides that hapkido rules ^.^

ps- i also agree- once you know the basic locks most of the different 3000 or so techniques are different variations

[Rebel Wado]

Many of the techniques learned in martial arts are there so that the knowledge is passed on. In reality, I would use very few of those thousands of techniques in a real fight. If you never plan on teaching the system, most of the techniques will be forgotten because you will never find a need to use them and practice them, what you keep is usually what you will use.

As for why boxers tend to be better fighters sooner than say someone in Hapkido, I don't think it has to do with the number of techniques exclusively but it has to do with training method and rules of engagement. First off, boxing progresses sooner to a fighting environment, whether hitting pads or sparring, the partner is offering some resistance. Resistance and understanding rules of engagement are keys to gaining experience in fighting. I hate to say it here, but in a real situation, I would take a police officer with the same amount of time in the profession over a martial artist who trained for the same amount of time. It has to do with experience in the environment. Police are on the streets gaining experience everyday, not in some dojang part time. Experience is the key to learning how to fight, not technique. Technique is just part of learning to fight better by providing you with more effective tools to get the job done.

Also, those that take boxing tend to already be more of a fighter on the inside to start with because boxing has the reputation of hitting each other with force. Those that don't want to be hit, often won't take up boxing or stay in it. Going back to the police officer over a martial artist in a real situation. Most police officers work on the streets and know what it is like, they are trained and have inside them a never give up attitude, they are in the force because they feel they must do something to help. Some police officers might be in the force because they think it is cool to be in uniform, in truth, maybe these sorts should not be in the proffession.

I am rambling it seems, I do have a point... you can't learn by just theory, you have to go and do it, practice it often. If you think Hapkido has a lot of techniques, then take a step back and try to understand what these techniques have in common by just getting on the mat and going through the techniques over and over again with a resisting partner. Gain experience in fighting to build your foundation.

[Bob1770]

Hello,
Just wondering what other Hapkido practitioners see as the weakness(es) of the art.

I have been studying Hapkido for 8 years and I feel that there are too many techniques.

Any opinions?

Not that I want to beat the subject to death, but I see the "mindset" of training Jointlock is talking about first hand. Just today we trained using the basic jointlocks, with the aggressor grabbing the wrist, and randomly, either pushing, pulling, or swinging the arm to the left or the right. This brings the whole Flowing Like Water, Circular, Non-Resistance theories into perspective. We concentrated on techniques that work of these movements. I am fairly new to Hapkido, but I also see first hand that when I do something unexpected, or when we are really sweaty and slippery and the initial technique slips or fails for some reason, my instructor ALWAYS switches to another technique and manages to keep the flow going until I have to tap out, or he uses strikes to follow up on a "lost" technique. So I feel that the thought that you have too many techniques needs to be re-evaluated. During our drills, I am being taught not to think, but instead to react to the situation at hand. I am quite confident that after eight years training under my instructor that I will be able to react to any situation with a natural reaction, rather than thought and planning. Making all of these techniques "second nature" is what it is all about. I fully believe that the art and its' techniques are fully capable of handling any situation that may arise, if you get the proper instruction, and if you train hard and train often. Also, if you feel that the groundfighting Hapkido has to offer in inadequite, and isn't offered until you reach the advanced levels, then maybe you can find someone who knows groundfighting (even if from another style) and have one day a week of informal groundfighting, it works for me. Have a buddy who participates in BJJ, or something similiar? Ask them to work out and teach you some basics. Or even ask some of the advanced students who are being taught groundfighting to teach you/work out together on your off days. I believe that Hapkido is a very effective system, provided you have the right instructor to pass it along as it was meant to be.

[iron_ox]

I believe that the sheer number of techniques it detrimental to the effective application of what has been studied. Many techniques are only really useful in passing grading tests or in a demonstration.

I also think that a technique can be effectively applied only when if has been repeated many thousands of times. Compare a martial artist to somone who is learning boxing. A boxer can learn all their techniques in their first lesson. They have basically 4 techniques - jab, hook, cross and uppercut. All the rest of their time goes to repetition and setting up the application of the techniques. Unfortunately, from my point of view, boxers are generally much better fighters than martial artists in the equivalent length of time. Why? Because they repeat their techniques more. So if we a Hapkidoists have thousands of techniques, how well are we going to learn each one?

Let me say that I think that learning a martial art is much more than fighting ability and that it is a good thing in itself to increase our knowledge. But should we be generalist and specialists?

Hello all,

The fact is that after 8 years, you have only scratched the surface of training...

Hapkido is an art, a fighting art, but an art never-the-less. Let me put this in perspective: When people come to my spacious, new dojang in downtown Chicago (shameless plug... :) ) I ask them why they want to learn Hapkido. Invariably, the answer is self defense or fitness - well here is my response:

"When, in your normal day do you need to defend yourself (this question is never directed at LEO's or Prison Guards...), and how many times in your life have you defended yourself? With few exceptions the answer is never.

Next Question:

"For what I charge, you could get a really good monthly membership to a chain fitness club - and could go anytime of day." "So, again, why do you really want to learn Hapkido?"

After some consideration, the answer is generally for overall improvement - even if they cannot pinpoint what area they want to improve.

That is what an art is for. If it is such a prerequisite to know how to fight, go down to the local jail/prison and wait for a guy or two to be released - they ain't boxers, or "trained fighters" - but they would best ANY trained fighter I have ever seen. I had the rather unique pleasure of meeting a guy named "Hard-hitter" (yes, that was what he was called). He was released from Stateville Prison (Illinois) in 1995 after a 15 year stretch for manslaughter. He worked as a doorman at a club where I trained the doorstaff. Oddly, this guy really revered my skills - but when I saw him really fight, I can tell you that the "fight in the dog" far outweighs the "dog in the fight" - after he very tidely dispatched 4 guys, he came to me and said "I know it wasn't pretty, but it worked, right?" - I could hardly dispute that his simple punching power had laid 4 guys out cold. I only ever taught him to meditate - he said he felt like if he learned more ways to fight, it might hurt him in court the next time he was there (and there was a next time...). Hard-hitter often remarked that it was the "other stuff" (as he called meditation, breathing, and the endless repetition of technique) that made martial arts so "cool" - "'cause any idiot can learn to throw down and hurt people - look at me".

The point here is that Hapkido as an art should hardly be looked at as just a collection of stuff to learn and discard the stuff you don't like or don't feel is useful - there has been far too much of that already in this art - which explains why there are so many charlatans saying they teach Hapkido. The art of Hapkido is far more than a way or ways to fight - it is more a philosophy to control those who think they can fight you. :)

Assess it this way: How often do you really need to fight or defend yourself? If the answer is rarely or not often, use the whole art of Hapkido as a giant act of self improvement. If the answer is sometimes or often, learn the whole art but concentrate on the areas of the art in which you feel you are strongest or best suited. These areas will get more immediate practice until all the parts of the art (and all 3808 techniques) become engrained into you as a single seamless group.

During one of the last conversations I had with Hard-hitter, he put things into a very interesting perspective I had never really given much thought to: He said that knowing so many ways to hurt a man must mean that you can "see" what it will do to him in advance, and because you know that, you are far less likely to want to fight - so it seems like a good reason to do all that training.

[korg20kbc]

There has been some very interesting comments on this post. Thankyou.

There have been a few comments made that say words to the effect of "As you study more, the more you realise that the techniques have the same foundation" or "the lines between the techniques become blurred".

This is exactly my point. If we can imagine our chosen martial art as a tree we can see that many techniques come from a foundation movement, like twigs from a branch. What I'm suggesting is that if we spend our time pruning the main "branches" the twigs and leaves come automatically and in much better quality and vigour. (No, I'm not a greenie)

If I can continue my tree metaphor, what would you think the main trunk technique would be? In my opinion it would definately be breathing techniques.

Bob1770 wrote:
"Just today we trained using the basic jointlocks, with the aggressor grabbing the wrist, and randomly, either pushing, pulling, or swinging the arm to the left or the right. This brings the whole Flowing Like Water, Circular, Non-Resistance theories into perspective. We concentrated on techniques that work of these movements."

Wrist drills are excellent for developing and understanding the principles of Hapkido. When I first began learning Hapkido it thought that wrist techniques were practical. I later realised that this is not so. Who is going to grab your wrist in a real situation? It may happen if you are female and someone is attempting to drag you somewhere. Or if you are very small in stature. I realised that wrist techniques are really just a tool for getting to learn and understand the principles that Bob1770 mentioned. Because of this, I also believe that wrist release techniques have no real place in Hapkido. I'd be interested to hear from the Traditional Hapkido blokes if it was present in Choi's system. To correctly learn from wrist techniques we should not let the opponant release our wrist but rater get him/her to a point where they are just holding on and moving where you want them to.

Any comments?

[iron_ox]

Because of this, I also believe that wrist release techniques have no real place in Hapkido. I'd be interested to hear from the Traditional Hapkido blokes if it was present in Choi's system. To correctly learn from wrist techniques we should not let the opponant release our wrist but rater get him/her to a point where they are just holding on and moving where you want them to.

Any comments?

Hello all,

As a Traditional Hapkido Bloke of the Choi System :) , I can say that in the early belts, wrist releases are most commonly the set up for a strike - but the wrist release itself, as it is taught is only a part of the story, the techniques are about learning body position and correct use of applied force. The wrist release motions in fact form the back bone of the core curriculum, and are the starting block from which many other non-release techniques are done.

Hope that helps. :)

[korg20kbc]

Iron ox,
I find that really suprising that wrist releases form the backbone of your core curriculum and are the starting block for many other techniques. I believe that if your opponant has initiated contact with your wrist it'd be misguided to then break contact. (Obviously you'd break contact at the end of the techniques employed). Your opponant grabbing your wrist is a choice method of controlling their movement and breaking their balance. How can you break their balance in any better way by releasing yourself from their grasp only then to reinitiate it?

Interested.

[delete me]

Hi all and appologies for adding my 5 pence worth.

This is my opinion and only that and I am sure there are people out there who could phrase this better and perhaps give me a better insight :) .

I teach my students this way. You are the builder. Hapkido will supply the bricks, cement etc. I will teach and/or show you ways of fixing them together. It is then up to you to build your own house.

Then there is the syllabus. This also gives you building blocks for your house and it also teaches you where to position yourself to acheive certain results.

Obviously there are techniques that you will really enjoy and do really well. "I like that!" is quite a common phrase and then there will, inevitably, be the technique from hell. Everyone has them and I am currently struggling with cantelever throws. (Tips would be gratefully received.) I tell my students that these techniques are in the syllabus for a reason and that in mastering them they have moved onto the next stage. It was what I was told and can see now for myself.

Some students have this wonderfull natural ability to remember everthing that you throw at them, soak it all up like a sponge, whilst others are like a bucket with a hole in the bottom. They have difficulty remebering how to get out of bed in the mornings.

Perhaps some of it is me and the way I teach???

But I do struggle to see how there can be too many techniques? :confused:
surely you learn them all and in a real life situation do what ever comes naturally.

There are 100 techniques not including punches and kicks in our 1st dan syllabus and out of those 100 I probably would use 5 in real life. But that is not the point. The other 95 have taught me how tho use the 5 I would use :o

[Kosh]

Iron ox,
I find that really suprising that wrist releases form the backbone of your core curriculum and are the starting block for many other techniques. I believe that if your opponant has initiated contact with your wrist it'd be misguided to then break contact. (Obviously you'd break contact at the end of the techniques employed). Your opponant grabbing your wrist is a choice method of controlling their movement and breaking their balance. How can you break their balance in any better way by releasing yourself from their grasp only then to reinitiate it?

Interested.

Most moves dont break contact...at least in the HKD i know.

The last sentense doesnt make sense.

[Rebel Wado]

...
There are 100 techniques not including punches and kicks in our 1st dan syllabus and out of those 100 I probably would use 5 in real life. But that is not the point. The other 95 have taught me how tho use the 5 I would use :o

Purely for the philosophical, but I would say you have it backwards :p

The five that you would use should teach you how to use the other 95. The many do not teach you how to use the one, it is the one that unlocks how to use the many.

Just some playing around. Cheers. :)

[delete me]

Never thought of it like that. MMMMMMMMM!??!!??!!!

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

In orthodox Hapkido, the first five movements are breakaways, followed by strikes. Simple and effective. In particular for beginners, as they have a tool in the box while they work on off-balancing and redirecting techniques.

I still believe that the greatest weakness in Hapkido is the dilution of the name and what it represents by self proclaimed "founders" of new Hapkido schools who really teach nothing new and often have little real background in Hapkido.

[Jungkihapkido]

I still believe that the greatest weakness in Hapkido is the dilution of the name and what it represents by self proclaimed "founders" of new Hapkido schools who really teach nothing new and often have little real background in Hapkido.

I agree Kevin. Hapkido's weakness lies in people that claim to know the whole art but do not even understand basic principles! I have seen this from people who claim rank of 3rd - 9th Dan in Hapkido.

Before you try to point out an arts weakness you need to know the art! Not just 1st, 2nd dan or even higher rank. Not many have reached that level. The other thing I would mention is be careful when someone calls there art Hapkido make sure it comes from the Founder of Hapkido "DJN Choi, Yong Sul"

www.millersmudo.com hkdtodd@ttlc.net

Take care