Leave God out of the tsunami (from a non-believer)

[nzric]

I've shown my cards a lot in this forum and anyone should know I strongly don't believe in religion, but I can still appreciate this article written about the recent disaster:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?c_id=2&ObjectID=9005646

Folks, I don't want to be one of those atheists "waving the burial shrouds of victims like debating trophies" (in the words of the Times). I've noticed a few people bring up the idea of "how can God allow the tsunami" argument, but the article really made me think.

If your faith is shaken by pointless deaths from a tsunami you need to ask yourself why your faith isn't shaken every time a child dies of cancer. And if you don't believe in religion/god, just consider the fact that the recent tsunami doesn't make your case any stronger.

Peace

[d33pthought]

Unfortunately, things like these just happen, and it very well may be that a butterfly just south of Spain was a little overzealous with the wing-flapping. It's not as if there's nothing people can do: I heard on the news about one guy who survived because he remembered a particular characteristic of pre-tsunami flood patterns that he read about in a Discover magazine. Managed to save twenty or so people, too.

[Poop-Loops]

People who say "how can God allow so much death" need to look at the good side of it. Yes, there is a good side, as stupid as it sounds. Notice how all the countries of the world are getting together to help the victims now?

I'm not saying God did or did not cause the tsunami, simply that the arguement of "How can God allow it" is stupid.

PL

[BendzR]

I believe in God.

I do not believe he is in control of everything.

I think he COULD be in control of everything but he isn't. If he was in control of everything that would make him a dictator since he would be controlling our thoughts aswell.

[Sgt_Major]

I believe in God, I believe he is in control of everything. In regards us he gave us freewill so we can make our own decisions and command our own life......but to say he isnt in control of us is slightly incorrect as he holds our life in his hands.....1 'squeeze' theres no more silatpupil......

But Im a believer, and dont flame me for it, as normally happens when I post near any topic religion related

[Johnno]

My two penn'orth...

If there is a God who created the world then He created nature and He doesn't interfere with it - for good or for bad. He let's it take it's course. Praying for rain is pointless, praying for sunshine is pointless, praying for deliverence from hurricane or tidal wave is pointless. God does not interfere. (Except to part the Red Sea, but He never made a habit of it, and He doesn't do stuff like that any more anyway. :D ) Blaming God is futile. He didn't cause the tsunami. Nature did. He just didn't step in and prevent it. That's not what He does, and we must accept it.

If, on the other hand, there is no God, then nature behaves in exactly the same way as if there was a God who doesn't interfere with it.

Either way, we must accept that there are aspects of nature which are dangerous. It's a complete system - earthquakes and hurricanes are just as much part of the system as gentle breezes and warm sunny days. To wish it were another way is to wish you lived in a different world.

[Keikai]

i was listening to a hindu leader on radio 2 yesterday and what he said was quite good, he said look at this as a natural disaster and the god is in the hearts and eyes of everyone that died which means he is bearing the biggest loss of us all.

Quite a nice piece i thought.

[choconutjoe]

Or maybe God just doesn't like us and he enjoys doing thigs like this.

[snailfist]

Yeah those posts pretty much go along with my understanding of the theology of bad things, as it were.
There's also the notion of an afterlife from a religous way of thinking- God doens't do anything because he knows something we don't that makes this ok.
Or the old mother's philosophy: "When your number's up, it's up, and when it isn't, it isnt, and there's no point in worrying about it".

[kades]

maybe a god does exist. to all the cells in our body we are god, just like all of us cells in god's body (if there is a god). we care little if some cells die, but i'm sure nearby cells miss their neighbour, but still we care very little. how god views us might be the same

[BendzR]

SilatPupil... I have a question.

If I have free will as you say, how can God be in control of EVERYTHING ? I am not flaming you here, I am genuinly interested in how you can reason this..

Lets say I decide I am going to kill Mr.X today. Since it is my decision and I have free will until I die, therefore God cannot prevent my will.

Thus God doesn't have control over Mr.X's life. The only way he can stop Mr.X from dying is by either changing my free will or killing me first, which would be against my will.

If God is in control of everything, then everything is predetermined, and thus we have no free will.

If you can refute that logically, I am all ears :)

[AZeitung]

i'm sure nearby cells miss their neighbour

No, they don't.

[Banpen Fugyo]

SilatPupil... I have a question.

If I have free will as you say, how can God be in control of EVERYTHING ? I am not flaming you here, I am genuinly interested in how you can reason this..

Lets say I decide I am going to kill Mr.X today. Since it is my decision and I have free will until I die, therefore God cannot prevent my will.

Thus God doesn't have control over Mr.X's life. The only way he can stop Mr.X from dying is by either changing my free will or killing me first, which would be against my will.

If God is in control of everything, then everything is predetermined, and thus we have no free will.

If you can refute that logically, I am all ears :)

You asked someone religious to explain their beliefs logically.... LOL, Yeah... Good luck with that one.

[BendzR]

Alright. Logically within the context then ;)

[YODA]

Alright. Logically within the context then ;)
What context?

Explain logically within an illogical context?

Hmmmm.... what is wrong with this picture? :rolleyes:

[Chojin]

Point well made! Sounds horrid but its natures balance! It dosnt choose who gets caught in these disaster! Its just wrong place wrong time! Just goes to show how much we take for granted when things like this happens!

[Johnno]

SilatPupil... I have a question.

If I have free will as you say, how can God be in control of EVERYTHING ? I am not flaming you here, I am genuinly interested in how you can reason this..

Lets say I decide I am going to kill Mr.X today. Since it is my decision and I have free will until I die, therefore God cannot prevent my will.

Thus God doesn't have control over Mr.X's life. The only way he can stop Mr.X from dying is by either changing my free will or killing me first, which would be against my will.

If God is in control of everything, then everything is predetermined, and thus we have no free will.

If you can refute that logically, I am all ears :)

I don't see anything contradictory about SilatPupil's post. As I understood it, he said that God has the power to control our lives and everthing else in this world, but chooses not to. Therefore we are left to excercise free will, just as nature is left to follow it's own patterns.

Whether you believe that to be true or not, I don't think you can say that it is illogical.

[Sgt_Major]

lol - Ive just come back to this post and I see the damage ive caused...hehehehehe

BendzR - Maybe you get up and decide that you wanna Kill Mr.X .... ok fair enough......you go looking for him......you cant find him. He decided to take the day off work and go on a random shopping spree ..... natural decision or divine intervention?

Or maybe its Mr.X's time to go.......you find him...kill him. hes dead. ok - why? because YOU decided, or because God decided Mr X. had to die, What if youd not found him, or couldnt do it......you think if God wanted him dead, he couldnt just hit him with a bus? or a heart attack?

Now dont get me wrong here.....im not saying God is making us kill each other!!!!! That is wrong and I firmly dont believe it, but what Im trying to do is provide you with hypothetical anecdotes that will attempt to stimulate your mind into seeing alternative paths/reasons in EVERYTHING we do. Fate? possibly. Divine intervention? Possibly. Neither? Possibly.

We, as humans are not intelligent enough to understand the origins/passings/ending of all things, therefore any opinion we have is systematically flawed. It amounts only to speculation, until we experience it. In which instance we cannot pass on the knowledge as we are dead.

Now you see why Ive been avoiding Religious debates?!!!

[Johnno]

SilatPupil,

Do you think that God made you write that last post, or do you think you did it from your own free will? :D

[Sgt_Major]

He inspired my free will to write it.... :p

[Johnno]

He inspired my free will to write it.... :p

I believe that God is writing this through me. Listen to what He is saying:

"HELLO DOWN THERE! THIS IS GOD SPEAKING. YOU CANNOT PROVE WHETHER OR NOT I EXIST, SO WHY NOT TALK ABOUT SOMETHING MORE PRODUCTIVE INSTEAD?"

I think we should obey. :)

[Nick_UKWC]

What's the song and dance about? 30,000 people die in poverty every day and I doubt many people give it a second thought.

[Sgt_Major]

Many do tho' likewise with this. Some do, some dont. Some give, some dont.

This just happened all at one time, and could have been avoided.

[Johnno]

It saddens me that it takes an event on this scale before most people put their hands in their pockets. And before most governments will act. Then we get told in the media what a wonderfully generous lot we all are and we feel so much better about ourselves. Meanwhile kids continue to starve to death while our governments continue to give out paltry amounts of 'aid' while reclaiming crippling debt repayments, and selling arms to fuel yet more conflicts which result in yet more misery and starvation.

I really do admire the way that people have responded to this terrible tradgedy in SE Asia. I just wish people would also respond to the long-term catastrophes which don't make the headlines as much. Like famine in the Sudan for example.

[megk]

It saddens me that it takes an event on this scale before most people put their hands in their pockets. And before most governments will act. Then we get told in the media what a wonderfully generous lot we all are and we feel so much better about ourselves. Meanwhile kids continue to starve to death while our governments continue to give out paltry amounts of 'aid' while reclaiming crippling debt repayments, and selling arms to fuel yet more conflicts which result in yet more misery and starvation.

I really do admire the way that people have responded to this terrible tradgedy in SE Asia. I just wish people would also respond to the long-term catastrophes which don't make the headlines as much. Like famine in the Sudan for example.

I agree with you whole heartedly Johnno. I think that we should make it a habit to give freely to all causes that are tragic. The Sudan is just one great example. Another would be little thought about orphans in Russia. There are hundreds of different ways to give. The reasons this tragedy has gotten so much air play is because of Tragedy TV. we all saw the devestation happening, it left us in awe of the disaster. If you give, great, if you don't that is fine too, but if you are going to be proud that you gave to this cause try to make a habit of giving to different causes. Just my opinion :o

Lets keep God out of this. He didn't cause it, he allowed it. He created the system of natural law and therefore he obeys that law. Could he have prevented it? Yes. But he chose not to. Why? Because he is God.

Here is a good analogy....

When we look at a Tapestry from the back, it is just a mess of thread and dyes. It looks like crap. But if you turn it over you can see the beautiful pattern that it creates. We see the back iof the Tapestry, God sees the front.

[Sgt_Major]

Here is a good analogy....

When we look at a Tapestry from the back, it is just a mess of thread and dyes. It looks like crap. But if you turn it over you can see the beautiful pattern that it creates. We see the back iof the Tapestry, God sees the front.

You mind if I 'steal' that from you?
:D

[cloudz]

It saddens me that it takes an event on this scale before most people put their hands in their pockets. And before most governments will act. Then we get told in the media what a wonderfully generous lot we all are and we feel so much better about ourselves. Meanwhile kids continue to starve to death while our governments continue to give out paltry amounts of 'aid' while reclaiming crippling debt repayments, and selling arms to fuel yet more conflicts which result in yet more misery and starvation.

I really do admire the way that people have responded to this terrible tradgedy in SE Asia. I just wish people would also respond to the long-term catastrophes which don't make the headlines as much. Like famine in the Sudan for example.

hey Johnno

Talking of governments acting did you hear about Gordon Brown and Tony Blair's new iniative to write off some of the third world debt and try to get the Americans on board. Very noble of them don't you think?... Or could it be that their's an election due just round the corner... Or am I just being cynical..

[megk]

You mind if I 'steal' that from you?
:D


Most deffinetly. Steal away. It's pretty cool isn't it. ;)

[Johnno]

hey Johnno

Talking of governments acting did you hear about Gordon Brown and Tony Blair's new iniative to write off some of the third world debt and try to get the Americans on board. Very noble of them don't you think?... Or could it be that their's an election due just round the corner... Or am I just being cynical..

There has been increasing pressure from charities and pressure groups for some time now for them to 'drop the debt'. I must have sent quite a few appeal postcards to Gordon Brown on this issue alone! (Not that I'm trying to claim the credit of course... the charities send them out to people to send to the politicians!)

I'm sure the next election will have affected the timing of the decision. That's how politics works, I'm afraid. But it's still a good thing if they do it. Plenty of previous governments haven't, even as a vote-winner, so let's give them some credit!

[xen]

1-if there is a god he/she is not an omnipotent human who controls things, more a creative force which set our sphere in motion...hence once oceanic plate movement was created as a possibility then the tragedy we have just seen becomes possible...god can't mess about with the physical laws which hold our world together, otherwise he/she will threaten his/her own existence...the world spins, the plates move and humans like the beach...this is just a bad event from the human perspective...from the perspective of nature it is just an event

2-from the human perspective...we have all been reminded we are not the masters of this planet...nature is...we are all at risk from tragedy everyday...we just don't notice unless it happens...what happened is a terrible reminder that we are a fragile species and i can't begin to imagine how those left behind are coping with such trauma

3-from a political perspective...i commend the british govt for finding such huge funds to help these affected countries and am glad our country is in such a strong economic position and can offer such help...but i have to ask...tony, if you can find £100 million at the drop of a hat (or however much aid it will be) to help these people, why could't you find a fraction of that to help your own citizens with our recurrent domestic problems last year? do the maths for yourselves...it makes a mockery of all the rubbish we are told about why things like the NHS are still starved for cash!

[Sgt_Major]

Most deffinetly. Steal away. It's pretty cool isn't it. ;)

Yup. I like it. :love:

[Kosh]

I dont understand how people can defend god in this matter. Its not an act of free will, noone human made it happen...god either made it happen or allowed it to happen (personally i dont see a distinction between the two...'all that is needed for evil to prosper is that good men do nothing')

God just killed a load of people, you can reword it how you like it doesnt matter, thats what happened. An act that, by a definition of evil given to us by god, is evil.


On a more political note, everyone trying to raise money is nice but its worth remembering that we could have raised some money 5 years ago to pay for an early warning system which would have cost a tenth of what weve raised and noone would have died. But where was the publicity then?

[megk]

I dont understand how people can defend god in this matter. Its not an act of free will, noone human made it happen...god either made it happen or allowed it to happen (personally i dont see a distinction between the two...'all that is needed for evil to prosper is that good men do nothing')

God just killed a load of people, you can reword it how you like it doesnt matter, thats what happened. An act that, by a definition of evil given to us by god, is evil.


On a more political note, everyone trying to raise money is nice but its worth remembering that we could have raised some money 5 years ago to pay for an early warning system which would have cost a tenth of what weve raised and noone would have died. But where was the publicity then?

You can choose to believe this or reject it totally. God never is happy about human death. He wept with the mothers and the Fathers that lost their children.

God is not man, so using a quote by men and trying to box God into that quote is a bit of a stretch.

I can understand your conviction though.

[kiaiki]

What more of a test of faith could there be than the tsunami? In the news coverage I've seen the followers of the religions believing in karma have coped far better because there is a system of logic, as well as a faith, to rely upon.

Theistic religions are left floundering. They can't understand how an omnipotent God created or permitted this cruel mass destruction, other than to say (as I heard a Moslem cleric state) that it must be a part of His plan we mere mortals cannot understand.. Most of the comfortable western religious leaders are totally lost once the real world jumps up and bites.
To fall back on the 'God moves in mysterious ways' argument is a total cop-out IMHO.

[BendzR]

Well a good point that was raised, is to nature, this isn't a bad occurance. It is just the natural laws and cause/effects being played here.

It is our perspective that it is bad, because of our mortal fear of death, fear of loss, and fear of destruction. To us, it is very logical to say it is a very bad thing.

This leaves many options of faith to any Theist, depending on how they believe in God, and what their defintion of things are. I am theistic.

One way to see it, is to God, "who looks at the front" this isn't a bad thing, for whatever reasons he sees fit. Since no human is God, they cannot comprehend the reasoning of anything that is not human, and thus it is a matter of faith.

Another way is that God isn't the Controller, he is the Creator. I believe it like this. It is not his function to prevent these things, regardless wether he can or can't. His function was to create Laws of nature, that are to be consistant and for us to live within this nature as best as we can.

If terrible things happen in our perspective, all we can do is work our way towards bettering the circumstances for humanity and for ourselfs. Complaining to God about it, or to anyone is just delaying the process of doing something about it ourselves.

[Banpen Fugyo]

Seriously, grow up people. Its a story, a fable. The bible has good morales, yes, contridicts itself, yes, is based on some kind of truth, maybe... Those are facts. You refuse to question the first thing your told. You've been christian, or wutever religion, and have been told that is the truth, find your own truth, find your own way, and stop pretending you know everything.

The Red sea parting could have been the Reed sea, a shallow creek where if the wind blew hard enough it dried up the land... Miracle? And if it wasnt, fine, maybe it wasnt, but maybe it was... I dont rule out the existance of god, and i dont rule out the existance of greek gods... And i dont rule out that all of it is a load of crap. An open mind will find the truth, if your so stuck in your own way of believing, and defend god or dont defend god and fail to see there are other options like aliens coming and creating a tsunami, or little ninja midgets underground or the god of wind being mad at the god of earth,then you arent being rational, your being one sided.

This isnt meant to bash anyones belief, cuz i def am against that. But they arent YOUR beliefs... they are what you've been told, its different. I dunno, I dont know anything about anything either, but i still feel an open mind is the way to ones final truth

[tbubb1]

Well...I try to look at it this way:

It happened.
If it happened it was destined to happen.
If it was destined to happen it was God's will to have it happen.
If it was God's will to have it happen, then there was a reason behind it.
If there was a reason behind it, it had to have been done.
So it happened.

Sadly, we don't know what that reason was :confused: .

[baubin2]

Do yourself a favor and stop trying to figure out why God let the tsunami happen. Trying to figure out why somewhere around 100,000 people (I have few doubts the death toll will eventually end up there) having their lives wiped out in an instant is a good thing will only give you a severe headache.

And yes, I did read your post and I do realize that you did not state that God had a good reason, only that he had a reason. But either the reason was good or it was bad, and one thing I really don't want to contemplate is God having a BAD reason for this happening. Doing that would give me worse than a headache.

[Shark-Proof]

Take it on the mat, people.... feet together, bow.... fight!

[Banpen Fugyo]

Well...I try to look at it this way:

It happened.
If it happened it was destined to happen.
If it was destined to happen it was God's will to have it happen.
If it was God's will to have it happen, then there was a reason behind it.
If there was a reason behind it, it had to have been done.
So it happened.

Sadly, we don't know what that reason was :confused: .

It happened. AGREE
If it happened it was destined to happen. Destiny? More like a random earthquake
If it was destined to happen it was god's will to have it happen.

And the rest doesnt work, the first two were almost facts, the last ones are just beliefs, nothing more.

[aikiMac]

First you said:
This isnt meant to bash anyones belief, cuz i def am against that. But they arent YOUR beliefs. they are what you've been told, its different. I dunno, I dont know anything about anything either, but i still feel an open mind is the way to ones final truth

And then you said:
And the rest doesn't work, the first two were almost facts, the last ones are just beliefs, nothing more.

You're inconsistent. You said that Mr. Pretendingtodie could believe anything he wants to believe, and he formed a belief, and then you make fun of him. Inconsistency is not "an open mind." Inconsistency is a closed, hypocritical mind.

[Banpen Fugyo]

i think your forgetting the title of this thread... "Leave god out of the tsunami" Arguing that God should be included in talking about the tsunami by using God as a reference is circular logic. Like saying God is real because God said so. Thats why i said his post contributed nothing. I have nothing against his beliefs, it just didnt work in this thread.

[aikiMac]

That's not how you addressed it in #40, but, okay. Fair enough.

[Banpen Fugyo]

Maybe it seemed that way, its hard to explain yourself with words, esp with just text...

At least we didnt start flaming each other. There should be more civilized ends to arguments like this one. A+ for maturity.

[Poop-Loops]

I dont understand how people can defend god in this matter. Its not an act of free will, noone human made it happen...god either made it happen or allowed it to happen (personally i dont see a distinction between the two...'all that is needed for evil to prosper is that good men do nothing')

God just killed a load of people, you can reword it how you like it doesnt matter, thats what happened. An act that, by a definition of evil given to us by god, is evil.

You are either admitting that you are evil yourself, or you are a damn hypocrite. And tell me exactly how much should "good men" do in order to stop evil? Did you give ALL your money to the fund? No? Well then you just killed many people, my friend. You are evil.

PL

[Kosh]

You can choose to believe this or reject it totally. God never is happy about human death. He wept with the mothers and the Fathers that lost their children.

How do you know? Besides that implies god didnt want it to happen but let it happen anyway...or had no choice. God let them die to test the faith of the survivers? All men are created equal...cept the ones created to die as a test for the others.

There is a very simple explaination...god has nothing to do with right and wrong, good or bad. Afterall, how can god understand what it is to die?

[Sgt_Major]

Because he watched his son die. for us.

[Banpen Fugyo]

this thread has gone so downhill....

Because he watched his son die. for us.

how do u know that? you dont. the bible says so, and you believe it. That doesnt mean its true.

[Chruffin]

this thread has gone so downhill....



how do u know that? you dont. the bible says so, and you believe it. That doesnt mean its true.

Siphus, religion isn't about knowing something, it's about believing it and having faith in it. The moment you categorically KNOW something there ceases to be *any* point in holding it as a religion, it becomes a science.


Afterall, how can god understand what it is to die?


In asking that question you presuppose that God exists. In that case you have no argument against the belief that Jesus was both the son of God and the incarnation of God on Earth. In which case he would understand what it is to die. Furthermore, as an omniscient being he would also by definition know and understand the same thing.


I dont understand how people can defend god in this matter. Its not an act of free will, noone human made it happen...god either made it happen or allowed it to happen (personally i dont see a distinction between the two...'all that is needed for evil to prosper is that good men do nothing')

God just killed a load of people, you can reword it how you like it doesnt matter, thats what happened. An act that, by a definition of evil given to us by god, is evil.


Kosh, you know your argument is founded on a pile of dung here, right? The fact is that Good and Evil are both the products of free will. A Tsunami isn't evil at all, it's just a disaster. If you're prepared to accept the existence of God (which your argument is as you're holding him responsible for it) then you can't deny an afterlife - Thus how do you know those people haven't gone to some form of Heaven?

Furthermore, Poop-Loops is absolutely right. Have you given up all your wealth to the point of relative physical worth? Hell, have you even given them up to the point of relative moral worth? No, you haven't. According to your own argument you're evil.

[Kosh]

The fact is that Good and Evil are both the products of free will. A Tsunami isn't evil at all, it's just a disaster.

I missed something out of the post 'Its not an act of human free will, noone human made it happen...god either...

God was responsible for the tsunami (this is implied by the definition of god). The will of God. Im not argueing about the existense of god (though i do believe god exists).

You said they may have gone to a better place...did they use their free will to chose to go to this better place? My arguement is that by the definition of god, it is directly responsible for the deaths of many people...yet the only arguement to reconcile this with christianity is to say 'im sure its ok...just have faith'.

The funniest comment on the subject was a response from some high ranking christian something or other, who said 'I dont believe that god pulls the strings to make things like this happen' taken from bbc.co.uk news (its gone now i couldnt find it)

Which to me is frankly laughable.

youve also touched on another point i was going to make, murder is the most evil act, yet you have just pointed out a circumstance in which you believe it isnt evil (ie they go to a better place). If murder can so easily nullified once you start talking about the non-material and timelessness...you soon see that the idea of good and evil is limited to humans.

This thread is about leaving god out of the tsunami...god is supposed to be a big part of many believers lives...then something like this happens and it doesnt fit into our image of god...lets leave it out.

As for me being evil, im a human so im apparently evil by definition. But you seem to be trying to out flank me since this has nothing to do with this thread...and seems like a personal attack.

[edit] i just found waht pooploop said...that wasnt what i was trying to say...Letting evil happen is the same as making it happen - people should do everything in their power to stop evil? but god has infinite power...so logically...what i was saying is that if god lets something happen its the same thing as him making it happen.

[KickChick]

It is never God's will to inflict suffering upon people...

It gives us the opportunity to reach out to God to experience his comfort, help and strength in the middle of this disaster. It gives those with the faith an opportunity for it to work for us. And it proves IMO that God is there with us.

I believe God is in the doctors who rushed to calm and heal the frightened. God is in the workers who build shelters and feed the homeless.

And God is in everyone who reads about the disaster and will respond to various charitable organizations that help.

When God set the world in motion, he created nature, and nature works according to its own laws....taking its own course making no moral judgements on its victims.

It's unfortunate that it's situations such as this that brings the world's people together.... our pain brings us closer to God.

The Hindu understanding of the events hinges on karma.

Karma in this case is not to be understood as a reward or punishment for the actions of the victims. A group disaster like this is understood by them to be a "group karma" meaning people overall .... people worldwide universally have acted irresponsibly. Their faith is that somehow this disaster will eventually lead to some sort of wisdom for humanity in general. They don't question (Allah's) ways but ask for mercy on those who died so they be placed in a better life and have mercy on those still living and affected by the disaster.
The death of young innocents is eased in their belief of rebirth ... in their next birth they may be in a better position in a sense they would have more opprtunities for wisdom because one looks at things in a different way when one has suffered.

[Kosh]

It is never God's will to inflict suffering upon people...

But he did. So whos will was it? If it wasnt gods then are you saying it was outside of his control? This is a contradiction of the both the logical meaning of the word god and goes against the christian view of god because he is all powerful. But apparently he has no power over people because we have free will and now is supposed to have no power over nature either...so where does its so called omnipotence lie?

Again it seems like its very hard to reconcile good and evil directly with gods actions which again seems to imply the simple fact the good and evil arent applicable to god.

[Johnno]

Kosh,

I think all the points you raise were covered pretty comprehensively earlier in this thread. You seem to be going over the same ground again.

May I suggest that you read the first few pages of the thread?

Regards.

[Sgt_Major]

He has the choice to control us and it. The flooding of the world was by his hand in biblical times, as was the scattering of the people. He CHOOSES not to directly control us, but he COULD.

[Kosh]

Im sorry if a repeat myself but it seems like everything comes back to that one central arguement...plus i feal like im defending my position.

He has the choice to control us and it. The flooding of the world was by his hand in biblical times, as was the scattering of the people. He CHOOSES not to directly control us, but he COULD.

Again this is another way of say 'he let people die'

[Johnno]

Kosh,

My understanding of the 'religous' argument is that God created the world and all in it, including mankind and nature. Leaving aside Biblical miracles etc, I think all the major religions would see God as being all-powerful, but that He does not interfere either with nature or with mankind - He lets events take their course in accordance with the laws of nature which He created. We make the best of it, just like all the other creatures on this earth. If God intervened every time we asked Him to then the world would be a very different place. And we wouldn't have free will in the truest sense of it, because we could always fall back on God to bail us out when things got a bit tough.

[Sgt_Major]

Im sorry if a repeat myself but it seems like everything comes back to that one central arguement...plus i feal like im defending my position.



Again this is another way of say 'he let people die'

Its an argument that cannot be solved, as none of us can ring him up and ask him, nor would we comprehend his answer even if we got it.

And we too feel like we are defending our position.

Can we REALLY expect to come to a conclusion?

[kiaiki]

The Hindu understanding of the events hinges on karma.

Karma in this case is not to be understood as a reward or punishment for the actions of the victims. A group disaster like this is understood by them to be a "group karma" meaning people overall .... people worldwide universally have acted irresponsibly. Their faith is that somehow this disaster will eventually lead to some sort of wisdom for humanity in general. They don't question (Allah's) ways but ask for mercy on those who died so they be placed in a better life and have mercy on those still living and affected by the disaster.
The death of young innocents is eased in their belief of rebirth ... in their next birth they may be in a better position in a sense they would have more opprtunities for wisdom because one looks at things in a different way when one has suffered.

Sorry, but I think you are somewhat wide of the mark here. Many of the victims are Buddhists, who would share a Hindu concept of karma but not the belief in the many Hindu deities. However, neither Hindus nor Buddhists would refer to Allah - that's Moslems. Whilst Hindus and Buddhists have deities they also accept that much of the visualisation and ritual connected with them is directed towards our internal mind and its improvement rather than worship of an almighty god.

The karmic effect which led to the deaths of the victims would have been laid in past lives, hence there is no personal connection with the individuals who died, only with the part of their minds which they received from previous lives, which carris their karmic effect from life to life.

If their actions in this life are good them a good rebirth will result, if not then the fact that they died in this tsunami event has no bearing. A person who commits bad acts will have a bad rebirth in the next life - death by tsunami does not relieve them of this karma. It's not like Crhsitianity with some concept of 'purging sins'. Karma ripens, we suffer, and in Buddhism we work to avoid it in future lives, not only for ourselves, but for others.

To quote Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (tibetan master):
'Usually we assume that bad experiences arise only in dependence upon the conditions of this present life. Since we cannot account for many of them in these terms, we often feel that they are inexplicable and undeserved, and that there is no justice in the world. In reality, however, most of our experiences in this life are caused by actions we committed in past lives.'

and on the tunami in particular, he teaches:
'suffering is the result of bad karma ripening and insufficient merit.'

It might seem harsh, but that is the karmic explanation of why some died and others did not. They did not deserve to die because of anything they had done, but becaue of actions in previous lives of which they would have no knowledge.

Makes more sense to me than a God figure about which it is illogical to conclude that he is there for comfort and to be with those who suffer, yet at the same time is the creator and omnipotent in all respects. If God is any of the things claimed for him he must also have caused or permitted all the wars and natural disasters. Buddhism passes the test of logic as well as faith. IMHO monotheistic Christianity and Islam do not.

[Poop-Loops]

But he did. So whos will was it? If it wasnt gods then are you saying it was outside of his control? This is a contradiction of the both the logical meaning of the word god and goes against the christian view of god because he is all powerful. But apparently he has no power over people because we have free will and now is supposed to have no power over nature either...so where does its so called omnipotence lie?

Again it seems like its very hard to reconcile good and evil directly with gods actions which again seems to imply the simple fact the good and evil arent applicable to god.

Let me give you an example. You have a kid. 2 year old. REALLY loves the stove. Especially when it's fiery hot. Every day when you cook you make sure he doesn't touch the stove, you don't want him to get hurt. But every day he just screams louder and louder than he wants to touch it. So, you finally let him touch it so he can shut the hell up. He cries, of course. So what do you do? You comfort him. Kinda like the story with Apollo and his son. It was his birthday, so he asked Pappy for ANYTHING. Apollo agreed, and he said he wanted to ride his chariot. Apollo was hesitant, but he said anything, so he let him do it, giving him pointers to drive it right. He didn't follow them, ended up burning the country side and such, so people prayed to Zeus and Zeus layed the smackdown on him. Did Apollo want to do it? Did you want your kid to touch the stove? Sometimes people have to learn for themselves. OBVIOUSLY there is no visible connection to a tsunami, but that's where the whole "faith" part comes in.

PL

[Banpen Fugyo]

Siphus, religion isn't about knowing something, it's about believing it and having faith in it. The moment you categorically KNOW something there ceases to be *any* point in holding it as a religion, it becomes a science.


Like I've said in other posts, you believe what you are told (the bible, church etc). Have you studied just as much of christianity as u have of buddism? taoism? Islam? Everything else? No, you havent. (assuming)

So how can you even start to argue? How can you say green is better than blue, when your color blind? How can you say ireland is better than japan when you've never been there?

I'm not saying your wrong. Maybe i'l find out one day christianity is right, or maybe one day i'll find out that buddism is right, i dont know. AND NEITHER DO YOU.

Having faith in something without knowing all sides of the stories is idiotic to me, and i feel sorry for people who are brainwashed into denying free thought.

[NaughtyKnight]

Did you guys see in the news about the Muslim Elders that claim that Allah caused the tsunami. It is said that some random waves formed the words Allah in ancient Arabic. LOL, I find something like this so funny. If you stare at a wall long enough you can see anything. Im sure that if I stared at a brick wall long enough it might have "knightcommander is the best martial artist in the world" in ancient Pigmi. If this is true, why would "Allah" target the tsunami on 100 000 of his believers- Indonesia is the most populated Muslim country in the world.

I think that God may of caused the tsunami, but remember, God sees all. For all we know, the tsunami was needed to cause or prevent something else. Perhaps without the tsunami 50 years from now the world would be destroyed. No one knows. Prove me wrong.

[bcbernam777]

this thread has gone so downhill....



how do u know that? you dont. the bible says so, and you believe it. That doesnt mean its true.
actually the fact that Jesus Christ died is a matter of historical fact not only attested to by the bible but also by rabinical writings of the time and by Jewish historians of the time including Josephus. In addition it is also a historical fact that he had opportunity to avoid Jerusalum altogether even though he had told others of his imenent death in jerusalum even to the religous leaders of the day, he went delibaratly to jerusalum will the full knowledge that He would be put to death, so He died for something, I believe He died for the reason he said that he die for, both for you and me, and for the world.

[Johnno]

actually the fact that Jesus Christ died is a matter of historical fact not only attested to by the bible but also by rabinical writings of the time and by Jewish historians of the time including Josephus. In addition it is also a historical fact that he had opportunity to avoid Jerusalum altogether even though he had told others of his imenent death in jerusalum even to the religous leaders of the day, he went delibaratly to jerusalum will the full knowledge that He would be put to death, so He died for something, I believe He died for the reason he said that he die for, both for you and me, and for the world.

Yes, I think there is quite a lot of evidence that Jesus did exist as a historical figure. Whether you believe that he was the messiah, or a prophet, or whatever else is a matter of personal faith or belief. It isn't really relevant to the thread, which is about God. It isn't a specifically Christian thread, as I see it. It could be about God as any religion sees Him/Her/It/Them.

[bcbernam777]

Yes, I think there is quite a lot of evidence that Jesus did exist as a historical figure. Whether you believe that he was the messiah, or a prophet, or whatever else is a matter of personal faith or belief. It isn't really relevant to the thread, which is about God. It isn't a specifically Christian thread, as I see it. It could be about God as any religion sees Him/Her/It/Them.
True i agree,

it didn't come through on the post but I was responding to Siphus post to a previous post about Jesus dying and so feeling the pain of those who had died.

You know bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people, go figure. I know one thing though, as someone who has shared his own percentage of loss, I dont blame God for my losses, the world itself can be a very cruel place, can God intervene, absolutly He can, why doesn't He. I dont know, however as a christian, I see certain reasons why such things can and do happen, and understand that it may be hard to explain them so I refrain, I will say this though, there are alot of agency's both in the name of God and not in the name of God working there blessed selves to the ground to help those who are left behind in this tragedy. That is a good thing, and something everyone can easily forget although most people in this thread havent. Also to those people who haven't seen God in a more favourable light through this, I would like to point out something, there are many many good things that happen in this world, can God be blamed for all the bad and not in the same argument be acknowledged for all the good.

The disaster has happened, why? who cares, it has just happened, lets focus now on the task of doing what we can to help rebuild what was destroyed, and move on together with a greater sense of unity and brotherhood.

My 2 cents worth

[Johnno]

bcbernam777,

I wouldn't argue with any of that. Regardless of whether I share your beliefs or not, I think that was a good post with some really good points. Sorry if I misunderstood were you were coming from before.

[KickChick]

Sorry, but I think you are somewhat wide of the mark here. Many of the victims are Buddhists, who would share a Hindu concept of karma but not the belief in the many Hindu deities. However, neither Hindus nor Buddhists would refer to Allah - that's Moslems.


Yes my mistake referring to "Allah" ... I mean't to shift from Hindu belief to Muslim belief but forgot to make reference before I started this sentence ,,,
They don't question (Allah's) ways but ask for mercy on those who died so they be placed in a better life and have mercy on those still living and affected by the disaster.
And you are correct that it is not a test of faith for them (Muslims) as they are raised to place unwavering trust that "Allah" is in control.

A native of Calcutta and a retired Hindu scholar was explaining Hindu belief and perhaps I understood incorrectly or perhaps there are various 'personal' beliefs in that religion as there are in the Christian faiths. (??)

[Kosh]

Alot of people here are trying to present whats happened in terms of faith 'have faith god has a plan'. I have no problems with that, your beliefs are your own.

There is a flaw in this logic..in order to have faith you have to first admit it was gods doing. As such you have to admit god did something evil. Afterall, how can you have faith in gods actions being justified (regarding the tsunami) if nature is beyond his control and arent his actions? [the argument that god set nature up and doesnt control it is a contridiction in terms and to be true implies god has relinquished control of nature...ie relinquished godhood...which again is a contridiction in terms]

[Kosh]

actually the fact that Jesus Christ died is a matter of historical fact not only attested to by the bible but also by rabinical writings of the time and by Jewish historians of the time including Josephus.


History shows someone called Jesus died on a cross and that he had followers, it doesnt however show that the son of god existed. Saying that believing god exists automatically means you have to believe jesus was the son of god is false logic, so is the logic that jesus really existed therefor god exists.

[Johnno]

Alot of people here are trying to present whats happened in terms of faith 'have faith god has a plan'. I have no problems with that, your beliefs are your own.

There is a flaw in this logic..in order to have faith you have to first admit it was gods doing. As such you have to admit god did something evil. Afterall, how can you have faith in gods actions being justified (regarding the tsunami) if nature is beyond his control and arent his actions? [the argument that god set nature up and doesnt control it is a contridiction in terms and to be true implies god has relinquished control of nature...ie relinquished godhood...which again is a contridiction in terms]

I don't think that the argument is illogical. I don't necessarily think it is correct, because it depends upon a number of things we cannot know, like whether God exists, but from a purely theoretical point of view it is not illogical.

Let's say that God created the world and created nature, with all its powers of destruction as well as its support for all forms of life on this earth. He then leaves it to function without interference. Events such as a tsunami aren't then acts of God as such, because he didn't make a decision that we're going to have an earthquake at such-and-such a time and place which will cause a tsunami. It just happened. Just like volcanoes erupt, hurricanes blow, and the sun sets every night. No act of God required, because the system is self-sustaining.

The phrase 'act of God' is just an insurance term.

[Johnno]

History shows someone called Jesus died on a cross and that he had followers, it doesnt however show that the son of god existed. Saying that believing god exists automatically means you have to believe jesus was the son of god is false logic, so is the logic that jesus really existed therefor god exists.

So in other words:

1. Jesus could have existed, but not been the 'son' of God.

2. Other religions believe in God so God could exist even if Jesus wasn't the 'son' of God, or if he didn't really exist at all.

[kiaiki]

Yes my mistake referring to "Allah" ... I mean't to shift from Hindu belief to Muslim belief but forgot to make reference before I started this sentence ,,,

And you are correct that it is not a test of faith for them (Muslims) as they are raised to place unwavering trust that "Allah" is in control.

A native of Calcutta and a retired Hindu scholar was explaining Hindu belief and perhaps I understood incorrectly or perhaps there are various 'personal' beliefs in that religion as there are in the Christian faiths. (??)

LOL, I stayed in India a dozen times and worked with their academics for over 10 years (recruiting students for UK universities, school linking etc) and every explanation I had of their beliefs was different!! There seems to be a sort of 'orthodox' Hindu set of beliefs you get from the books - and then there's the reality that makes the religion so beautiful - anyone can make up their own rules and worship however they wish, including local deities as well as those which have grown from the vedas. It's a bit like the Hindu 'vegetarian' I met who ate beef once a month - I'm still trying to get my head round that one!

Their belief in karma, IMHO, is what most helps even the poorest street beggar to smile and, in times of adversity, allows those affected to move on. It seems to me to be less rigid than Buddhist schools of thought and certainly less so than Jainism, which I encountered a lot in Rajasthan.

Your friend may be a devotee of Kali if he is from Calcutta (Kalicutta), or have a dozen other deities influencing his thinking, as well as his academic studies. For me, I stopped asking too many questions and just wallowed in the culture while I could. Love the place. :)

[Infrazael]

The Christian God CANNOT be omnipotent and omniscient simultaneously. Being omnipotent means he is ALL-powerful, including the power to change his own future, destiny, or whatever comes next. Being omniscient means he KNOWs what his future will be, out of an infinite number of possibilities. Therefore, God will know what his TRUE future will be. This is illogical as he HAS the power to change his future, but then he DOESN'T because if he DOES, then he DOESN'T really know what his future is, leaving God trapped within an infinite paradox that He cannot escape.

Also, with the issue of free will. Free will can ONLY BE if ONE IS FREE TO REFRAIN from doing something. If God, being Omniscient and KNOWS EVERYTHING we will do the next minute, then it's IMPOSSIBLE to refrain from doing it. How can you REFRAIN from doing something that is already set in place? Impossible.

Therefore, according to Christian theology, free will CANNOT (NOT does not) exist. With their theology, all you are doing is going through PREDETERMINED motions that already have SET CONCLUSIONS.

[Banpen Fugyo]

Ok.. so maybe Jesus existed... So? Do you know how many "messiahs" there were? How many "healed people by touching them" , "walked on water" amongst other things? If those were all miracles, witnessed by other people, where are their stories? Were they conviently left out? I dunno. Historically a guy named jesus existed, maybe. What about the jew slaves that roamed the desert for 40 years? (isnt that right? i think it was 40 i dont remember) Not onlyis there no archaelogical or historical evidence that Moses even existed, there is no evidence that ANYONE was in the desert AT ALL! You would think that hundreds (thousands?) of jews roaming around half their lives would leave something behind...

Thats just one example, just because a guy named jesus existed, doesnt mean he was the son of god. Hundreds, if not thousands of people died on crosses, "messiahs" just like jesus...

[AZeitung]

The Christian God CANNOT be omnipotent and omniscient simultaneously. Being omnipotent means he is ALL-powerful, including the power to change his own future, destiny, or whatever comes next. Being omniscient means he KNOWs what his future will be, out of an infinite number of possibilities. Therefore, God will know what his TRUE future will be. This is illogical as he HAS the power to change his future, but then he DOESN'T because if he DOES, then he DOESN'T really know what his future is, leaving God trapped within an infinite paradox that He cannot escape.


First of all, there's really no paradox here, and second of all, even if there were, I don't think it would actually be a problem, since God should be able to overcome all paradoxes, or any set of logic which is a part of this universe.

But like I said before, it's not actually a paradox, and I think I've already posted an explanation of why this isn't a paradox to this board, and I don't feel like doing it again.

Same goes for your other paragraphs.

Also, as I believe I've explained before, without religion (i.e. without some sort of religion actually being correct), there can be no free will, anyway.

[Chruffin]

Guys, this argument's already been addressed.

God's omnipotence and omniscience can just as well be seen as potential as they can be seen as realised. That God *can* know the future if he so wishes does not directly conclude that he does so wish. Thus, just as Shroedinger's Cat is both alive and dead until someone checks, so too are our choices free until God checks. If he doesn't check we remain free.

That God gave us free will could just as easily be God's choice to not look into the future as it could be some divine gift. Furthermore, if you're accepting God's omnipotence (which you are if you want to disprove free will) then you have to accept that he is *all powerful* and thus logic is irrelevant in this problem, that we cannot comprehend where the cat is both alive and dead doesn't really matter, does it?

[bcbernam777]

bcbernam777,

I wouldn't argue with any of that. Regardless of whether I share your beliefs or not, I think that was a good post with some really good points. Sorry if I misunderstood were you were coming from before.
no problem

[bcbernam777]

History shows someone called Jesus died on a cross and that he had followers, it doesnt however show that the son of god existed. Saying that believing god exists automatically means you have to believe jesus was the son of god is false logic, so is the logic that jesus really existed therefor god exists.
that not what I said in that or any other post my friend, look this thread has a specific flavour so if you want to debatye with me I dont have a problem with that, we will just choose a differetn thread and hammer it out. Is that cool? :)

Posted with respect

[bcbernam777]

Ok.. so maybe Jesus existed... So? Do you know how many "messiahs" there were? How many "healed people by touching them" , "walked on water" amongst other things? If those were all miracles, witnessed by other people, where are their stories? Were they conviently left out? I dunno. Historically a guy named jesus existed, maybe. What about the jew slaves that roamed the desert for 40 years? (isnt that right? i think it was 40 i dont remember) Not onlyis there no archaelogical or historical evidence that Moses even existed, there is no evidence that ANYONE was in the desert AT ALL! You would think that hundreds (thousands?) of jews roaming around half their lives would leave something behind...

Thats just one example, just because a guy named jesus existed, doesnt mean he was the son of god. Hundreds, if not thousands of people died on crosses, "messiahs" just like jesus...
Again as I said to Kosh Siphus another thread I will be happy to debate.

:)

[Kosh]

that not what I said in that or any other post my friend, look this thread has a specific flavour so if you want to debatye with me I dont have a problem with that, we will just choose a differetn thread and hammer it out. Is that cool? :)

Posted with respect

It wasnt just a response to you. Someone said that since my arguement involves god then i must believe that god exists (which isnt actually true i -could just be argueing 'supposing that..'). But then they critisised my arguement by saying that logically i have to admit jesus existed and that he was the son of god. Theres no logic in that what-so-ever.