One hand clapping.

[YODA]

A popular "Koan" goes...

"What is the sound of one hand clapping?"

In fact - this is actually a mis-quote. The original by Hakuin (1686 to 1769) goes...

"In clapping both hands a sound is heard. What is the sound of one hand?"

I know the answer :D

Does anyone else? If you DO then you will realise of course that it is impossible to give the answer here :D

[grandmaster mat]

that is really gona bug me now! can u tell me plzzzz?

[Greyghost]

is it..."cla...." ?

[YODA]

Originally posted by grandmaster mat
that is really gona bug me now! can u tell me plzzzz?

I can't tell you - that would be impossible.

The whole thing is an exercise in experiential analysis :D

[YODA]

Originally posted by Greyghost
is it..."cla...." ?

It cannot be written :D

[grandmaster mat]

how long did it take u to work out?

[grandmaster mat]

ive been tryin to clap one hand and work it out but no luck yet

[YODA]

Originally posted by grandmaster mat
how long did it take u to work out?

About 15 years :D

[morphus]

CAN the sound of one hand be described?

[YODA]

I suppose in a way it can yes - but that wouldn't be experiential - You'd need to have found it rather than read it to get the benefit from understanding it.

I'm not looking for someone to write what it is - just interested to see if anyone has the knowledge, or even more important the understanding to have gained the knowledge.

You see - if someone WERE to say yes- it is ---- "blah blah blah" - I wouldn't comment. I would require them to show me :D

[morphus]

I'm sure Yoda, upon meeting, it shall be the first thing i show you!

[Fergie Boy]

"In clapping both hands a sound is heard. What is the sound of one hand?"

depends what the hand is doing.

[YODA]

Originally posted by morphus
I'm sure Yoda, upon meeting, it shall be the first thing i show you!

That would be nice :D

[YODA]

Originally posted by Fergie Boy
"In clapping both hands a sound is heard. What is the sound of one hand?"

depends what the hand is doing.

Sure it does :D

[Andy Murray]

Surely 'clapping', by definition involves two hands, and there is no such thing as clapping with one hand?

Hope that's not the answer, cos it took less than 15 seconds to come up with that? ;)

[Bon]

There is no sound ?

[Cain]

Hmm, I CAN clap with one hand, unusually, but the thing is I got a small confession to go along with it...figure it out :)

|Cain|

[YODA]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
Surely 'clapping', by definition involves two hands, and there is no such thing as clapping with one hand?

Hope that's not the answer, cos it took less than 15 seconds to come up with that? ;)

"In clapping both hands a sound is heard. What is the sound of one hand?"

[Cain]

The way of no way, the sound of no sound :confused: :eek::p:D

|Cain|

[grandmaster mat]

i think i got it! but its quite hard to explain

[grandmaster mat]

is it clapping with one hand is a weaker sound than clapping with two hands so does it mean use both hands in fighting instead of using one?

[Andy Murray]

.

[TkdWarrior]

sound of one hand : Smack :p
-TkdWarrior-

[Slownsteady]

Yoda, correct me if i am wrong- but noone said anything about the sound of one hand clapping? just the sound of one hand?

M

[Levo]

The answer is silence so you say nothing when the question is asked as that is the only way to answer it?

Nathan

[Levo]

....or you punch the smug sod for being so spirtual and explain the sound was a "thwack"? :D

Nathan

[Cain]

I think Nathan hit the nail straight on the head :eek:

EDIT - I think Andy got it too!

And me of course :D

'The sound of no sound' :p:D

|Cain|

[YODA]

Originally posted by grandmaster mat
i think i got it! but its quite hard to explain

That's the whole point :D

[YODA]

Originally posted by grandmaster mat
is it clapping with one hand is a weaker sound than clapping with two hands so does it mean use both hands in fighting instead of using one?


Not only have you missed the boat - you're in the wrong harbour :D

[YODA]

Originally posted by Slownsteady
Yoda, correct me if i am wrong- but noone said anything about the sound of one hand clapping? just the sound of one hand?

M


:D:D:D:D

[YODA]

Originally posted by Levo
The answer is silence so you say nothing when the question is asked as that is the only way to answer it?

Nathan

So close :D

[YODA]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
.


You are a Sage sir :D

[Slownsteady]

:X

[Jack]

Bah, everyone else got to this before me because they read it a while ago, but I got it also!

" "

[YODA]

Nobody got it yet Jack :D

Well - actually Levo got it via email :D

Clue - it isn't a sound - or the absence of a sound - so you can't type it :D

[YODA]

Morphus has caught a large dose of BINGO! :D

[Cain]

I will answer after 15 years :D:p

|Cain|

[Jack]

I think I may have it. I'll email you, Dave.

[YODA]

Indeed you do - well, you got 99% there anyway :D

[Jack]

99% is all I ever get. :(

[YODA]

Hey Jack

Aim for perfection and settle for excellence LOL!

[Fergie Boy]

If the hand is a royal flush then the sound is KERRRCHIIINGGG

[Fergie Boy]

Originally posted by YODA

Clue - it isn't a sound - or the absence of a sound - so you can't type it :D

Well if the sound of one hand isn't a sound I would have to have some strong words with the quiz master.

[Jack]

Aim for the moon, at least then you'll fall and land on a star.

Oh yes. :)

[shortstick]

My mom would say that its a slap! :D

[grandmaster mat]

:(i dont understand, there is no sound

[pgm316]

The sound of one hand clapping is the same as the sound of two hands clapping.

[YODA]

Originally posted by grandmaster mat
:(i dont understand, there is no sound


Who said there was?

[YODA]

Originally posted by pgm316
The sound of one hand clapping is the same as the sound of two hands clapping.



Nope :D

[pgm316]

Thats assuming its still hitting somethign ie clapping, because the question does imply clapping and a sound!

Other answer could be the question can't be answered, or "nothing".

or "There is no sound, and if you seek to discover the sound, you have to accept that there is nothing. If you can accept the nothingness, then you have freed yourself from the need to intellectualize experience, and are free to be aware of existence."

ok maybe I did cheat a bit ;)

[Mo Lung]

Didn't read the whole thread, but just wanted to chime in anyway!

From www.dictionary.com


clap1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (klp)
v. clapped, clap·ping, claps
v. intr.
To strike the palms of the hands together with a sudden explosive sound, as in applauding.
To come together suddenly with a sharp sound.

v. tr.
To strike together with a sharp sound, as one hard surface on another: clapped a book on the desk.
To strike (the hands) together with an abrupt, loud sound, usually repeatedly: clapped hands in time to the music.
To strike lightly but firmly with the open hand, as in greeting: clapped me on the shoulder.
To put or place quickly and firmly: clapped the purse snatcher in jail; clapped a lid on the box.
To arrange hastily: clapped together a plan.

n.
The act or sound of clapping the hands.
A sudden, loud, explosive sound: a clap of thunder.
A sharp blow with the open hand; a slap.
Obsolete. A sudden stroke of fortune, especially of bad luck.



Therefore, if one hand is clapping, the key word is clap - which means that one hand or two, it sounds the same.

A more interesting question might be:

What is the sound of one hand not clapping?

;)

[morphus]

No-one said "one hand clapping"

The correct question is "What is the sound of one hand?"

Read the first post! and then read it again.

[YODA]

Originally posted by morphus
No-one said "one hand clapping"

The correct question is "What is the sound of one hand?"

Read the first post! and then read it again.

Tadaaaaa............. :D

[pgm316]

Originally posted by morphus
No-one said "one hand clapping"

The correct question is "What is the sound of one hand?"

Read the first post! and then read it again.

One translation/interpretation does!

Its all down to the translation, we should still assume the hand is clapping I think! :confused:

Otherwise the question would be pointless.

You might as well have asked what is the sound of a tree :D

[YODA]

Originally posted by pgm316
One translation/interpretation does!

Its all down to the translation, we should still assume the hand is clapping I think! :confused:

Otherwise the question would be pointless.

You might as well have asked what is the sound of a tree :D


Hmmmmmmmm......... close :D

[Greyghost]

the more important question should be....

what is the sound of a beer can opening?

and can i have some crisps with that?

thanks

[YODA]

Originally posted by Greyghost
the more important question should be....

what is the sound of a beer can opening?

and can i have some crisps with that?

thanks

Psshhhhht!

..... no you can't. You can have Pringles and like it.

[AsSaSiN]

Thats it, Yoda is far to enlightened for the likes of us, i've got a crazy spiritual friend who i'm gonna wait to come on MSN and solve this mindless facade (hope i spelt that right :confused: )

[pgm316]

Ahhhhh but therein lies the mysteries of the unanswerable riddle :D

[YODA]

The answer is at hand - it always was :D

[johndoch]

Is it half the sound of two hands "cl" or "ap". hmmm could be silence.

Has anyone posted the correct answer yet?:confused:

[AsSaSiN]

As promised, me and my mates convo (i am gorgeous george, he is cjoce):

cjoce says:
It's one of those questions that make you realise that language and concept are fundamentally flawed.
Gorgeous George says:
how?
cjoce says:
It often can help with meditation.
cjoce says:
It's exactly like asking whether a photon is a particle or a wave.
Gorgeous George says:
ah
Gorgeous George says:
i get it

Are we any closer big Y?

[grandmaster mat]

wats a photon?

[grandmaster mat]

or am i just dumb

[JediMasterChris]

Sorry, I never payed much attention in science, I think a photon is a posotive or negatively charged particle.

[grandmaster mat]

isnt that a proton? is a photon something to do with flowers, kno, that photosynthesis thing

[r4bid]

the question of whether a photon is a wave or partical or something else entirely is a silly question, its answerable quite easily once we figure out the theory of everything (TOE). In fact in the next 100 years I guarentee that every school kid will know.

As for the one hand clapping thing, very interesting stuff. I thought about it for a long long time and then had a bit of a spark of brilliance, pretty cool stuff! I found out more about the concept through my NLP studies, tis blowing my mind as we speak.

[YODA]

LOL! A photon is the unit that makes up light. It's a particle that behaves like a wave :D

[Cudgel]

no its a wavicle

now tell me the sound a tree makes I dont care about one hand as I have two to clap with

[YODA]

Sound or noise? :D

[YODA]

Here's one for you - if a married man is standing alone in the forest and his wife is 100 miles away - is he still wrong?

[Cudgel]

no becasue en are always right *hides behind a VERY large sheild and waits tobe destroyed for his heresy*

:D

[Casado]

One hand clapping is a Zen Koan. These are used by the Rinzai School in Japanese Zen. The idea of a Koan is to meditate on it to achieve (satori) enlightenment. They are not solvable through thinking. There is not so much an answer as an interpretation. Knowing the answer to a Koan is not the same as understanding it. You might know E= mc^2, but that's not understanding it.

usually Koans are given to students at a temple by a roshi (teacher, always a monk or nun) and is chosen to suit their character. Choosing a Koan for yourself is not advised. Also, many people feel they understand a Koan when, in fact, they don't. It has to be verified by the roshi. Once solved you will be handed a more advanced one. Handing out answers to koans to the unenlightened is also not advised.

Other famous Koans are, "what was your face [this means personality] before your parents were born", "Does a dog have Buddha nature?, Joshu answered Mu! [mu means something like "nothing"or "not"] what does this mean?".

Happy Zen

[YODA]

The idea of a Koan is to meditate on it to achieve (satori) enlightenment. They are not solvable through thinking. There is not so much an answer as an interpretation.

Your no fun :D

[Cain]

Hehehe :D

Seems like Casado got it rite :D

|Cain|

[YODA]

How can he get it right by saying you can't get it right :D:D:D

[known]

i think i know but i cant say it like you said but i'll try and put it in words,
is it what your thinking, what you can hear around you and really life going on.
c ya

[YODA]

Nope

[Greg-VT]

In clapping both hands a sound is heard. What is the sound of one hand.

A sound, but with no sound. A sound that we can not recognise, and so therefore we fail to see its existence. But the sound is still there, impacting onto what is there in its path, still echoing and giving results after it. Recognising this 'sound' then shows us that there is an existence beyond what we perceive?

May just be babble… I’d better get to bed.

[Greg-VT]

LoL,
And on to something a bit less complex....

I just started doing a form, and realiazed the answer may be really basic. ;)

[YODA]

Bing! ---- A lightbulb goes on in Ving Tsun's head! LOL!

[TkdWarrior]

Once solved you will be handed a more advanced one. Handing out answers to koans to the unenlightened is also not advised.
i agree with this part...
i was reading a book on Zen year n half ago. It literally went over my head... first i was bit dissapointed that it's not worth spending money as i couldn't get it... but year n half later, i found that same book in the selves n started reading it again... and this time i didn't felt like it went over my head. i was really understanding wat it meant...
anyways...
-TkdWarrior-

[known]

hey,
is it air??(i no its a dump quess)
c ya

[morphus]

Nope!:)

[Casado]

If anyone is intrested in how koans, enlightenment and Zen related and how Koans are used (including detailed meetings between Roshi (teacher) and student), I recomend "Three Pillars of Zen" by Phillip Kaplau. It goes into detail on the whole concept. It's quite an easy book to follow too.

A Budhist monk goes up to a hotdog stand and says "Make me one with everything". After he paid for it he asked "where's my change?" The hotdog seller replied "Ah! change must come from within!"

[YODA]

LOL! Now THAT is my favourite :D

[grandmaster mat]

im seeing the text, but it still is making no sense, so basicly "In clapping both hands a sound is heard. What is the sound of one hand." one hand doin what? is it moving? if its not then surly there is no sound, or is there? perhaps it doesnt matter whether its moving or not its just the concept of the question (i might of said that wrong)

[grandmaster mat]

and how do we recognise this sound?

[YODA]

Originally posted by grandmaster mat
and how do we recognise this sound?

What sound?

[r4bid]

you guys crack me up.

[Ruan Long]

Well....you need the two hands two clap to turn off the lights. But if someone cuts one hand off you can not turn off the lights to go to bed or isolate the mind to meditate. Therefore you must use the switch. A bit modern, sorry.

[YODA]

Originally posted by Ruan Long
Well....you need the two hands two clap to turn off the lights. But if someone cuts one hand off you can not turn off the lights to go to bed or isolate the mind to meditate. Therefore you must use the switch. A bit modern, sorry.


Errrr....... Okaaaay :confused:

[Cain]

Ok, I know it's something very deep.

But I basically got it ;)

Might not be in the way ou want though...

Just slap your hand on anyone, anything and you got a clap :D:p

|Cain|

[morphus]

You're quite close but.............what clapping sound?

[Cain]

but a clap is a sound ain't it? :confused:

Geez! I never think this seriously about anything...

Grrrrr!!!! If I ever mess up my brains it's gonna be 'cause of you Yoda :D

|Cain|

[YODA]

Look at the question again Cain.

Where dies it mention a sound or clapping?????

DUFUS!!!!!!! :D

[Greg-VT]

Your right Yoda, it is a bit hard to give an answer here, well, my answer anyway....


"__________________"


-grego

[YODA]

Wrong :D

[Greg-VT]

Yeah, I just came back to edit it out, it's too basic... or possibly, not basic enough. But I think I’m on my way...

"Clapping" and "sound" are not words we should focus on, I think they may be there just to illustrate.

[YODA]

Maybe they're not there at all?

[Greg-VT]

The 'words' are there, but they are not.
I think I may have this sorted. Bed now though... tomorrow.

[YODA]

Originally posted by Ving Tsun
The 'words' are there, but they are not.
I think I may have this sorted. Bed now though... tomorrow.



Are they? I see no mention of clapping in the question.

[Greg-VT]

Ehh... I was going to hit the sack....

Originally posted by YODA
Are they? I see no mention of clapping in the question.

Nope, not in the question. But they are accompaning it. And I would say purely for illustrational purposes... And that they have no effect on the answer.

[Cain]

What is the sound of one hand?

It would depend on what it does....or maybe not...:confused:

Hmm....well the other thing could be is you have not even asked a question....just quoted someone....ok, now I need some rest :D

|Cain|

[Greg-VT]

Ok, I've sort of napped on it. A short nap yes, I can't sleep.

Now I'm really tired, and this seems the most basic response. Now I could go into more detail, but won't until later.
Yoda, if you can confirm the answer, am I coming anywhere close? If it is, then I'll go into a further explanation.


The answer can not be said or heard, nor can it be written or read. It can not be shown or seen. It simply 'Is'.

[Cain]

[idiot mode]

:confused::confused::confused:

*tears hair out*

[/idiot mode]

|Cain|

[YODA]

Originally posted by Ving Tsun


The answer can not be said or heard, nor can it be written or read. It can not be shown or seen. It simply 'Is'.

2/6 - not bad :p

[Sean O]

Think of it like this. Everything makes a sound, but not everything makes a noise.

[Greg-VT]

Sean, if this was a about a falling tree, then I would see your point. But this isn't, and I don't. :D

[Andy Murray]

I so want to tell people the answer to stop this painful thread....
























































but I won't :D

[Greg-VT]

Ok, so I'm wrong. If it's painfull for those who know, then I'm going to let it go.

I'm pretty sure I know, but it's a bit hard to put into words. But yeah, that's it. I'm over it.



lol, nice sig Andy.

-grego

[Mo Lung]

Someone please lay out an answer!

[YODA]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
I so want to tell people the answer to stop this painful thread....


but I won't :D


Maybe you just did :D

[YODA]

Originally posted by Mo Lung
Someone please lay out an answer!

Ok here goes.....

Want me to do it again?

[Greg-VT]

You gave away the answer?!? That's no fun :(. But you opened up more questions than answers... or rather, more possibilites.

The thing is, you can answer it, but can you explain it? I don't think it calls for an answer, but more a reasoning.

But could continue to be wrong...

[Cain]

Can someone ask the actual question again?

I don't think it was even a question, you just quoted someone...

Someone lemme outta my suffering!!!!

|Cain|

[AsSaSiN]

Originally posted by YODA
Ok here goes.....

Want me to do it again?

Above is the original quote

Here is the answer:
Originally posted by YODA
Ok here goes.....
[THE ANSWER IS ON THIS LINE!!!]
Want me to do it again?

Now it's up toy you how you interpret that

[Cain]

I know the answer is 'nothingness'

But I still don't get the idea of the koan :(

|Cain|

[YODA]

No - it isn't :p



But I still don't get the idea of the koan

Excellent - well done :D

[khafra]

Originally posted by YODA
A popular "Koan" goes...

"What is the sound of one hand clapping?"

In fact - this is actually a mis-quote. The original by Hakuin (1686 to 1769) goes...

"In clapping both hands a sound is heard. What is the sound of one hand?"

I know the answer :D

Does anyone else? If you DO then you will realise of course that it is impossible to give the answer here :D

I don't know if anyone's mentioned this yet, but the obvious answer to me is whatever that hand is doing. If it's attached to a living body, there will be a quiet throbbing sound of blood pumping. If its attached human is listening to music, there may be finger snapping, etc. So the answer is: variable.

[YODA]

((((Sigh))))

[AsSaSiN]

Originally posted by YODA
No - it isn't :p





Excellent - well done :D
Yoda you make me cry in laughter and pain at the same time

[YODA]

Originally posted by AsSaSiN
Yoda you make me cry in laughter and pain at the same time


It is my duty :D

[Jack]

LOL..

Khafra, thats not it.

Lets just say that the answer is always there you're just not noticing it. :)

[Knight_Errant]

well, very obviously, you can't clap one hand together. You need something to clap against. You have to analyse not the sound, but the idea of the sound. Who is is heard by (this is the tree/forest thing again but very different- in the tree/forest scenario, the problem is about whether it has any existence outside our own experience. Here you have the flavour of non-possiblity of making the sound). How is it made? being the most obvious question, it can't be. That's not what the whole thing is really about.
I could go on, and on and on and on. Or I could just say 'one hand clapping'.
Is this any good?

[YODA]

well, very obviously, you can't clap one hand together. You need something to clap against.

((((Sigh))))

CLAPPING IS NOT PART OF THE QUESTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :woo:

[Greyghost]

Yoda...i'm starting to think your talking a load of CLAP!!!

[Cain]

Yoda could you repeat just the question in another post?

Oh and don't quote from the original post please :D

|Cain|

[Cain]

ROFL@Greyghost :D

|Cain|

[YODA]

Originally posted by Greyghost
Yoda...i'm starting to think your talking a load of CLAP!!!


LOL! I'm not - that's the point.

[YODA]

Originally posted by cain_charlie
Yoda could you repeat just the question in another post?

Oh and don't quote from the original post please :D

|Cain|


Ok I'll post just the question - but here ok?




The Question

[Cain]

Hmmmmm.....

As I said b'fore you hav'nt even asked a question just quoted a koan.......so how can there be an answer!!!???

Hmm.....

|Cain|

[YODA]

You asked me to reap JUST the question - so I did :p

the question

This is the same direct observation you need to answer THIS.....

"In clapping both hands a sound is heard. What is the sound of one hand?"

[Knight_Errant]

Ok. That was my best shot. I'll try harder. If you go beyond clapping, you have a whole world opening before you. If you apply all your thoughts to your entire experiential world, you have a form of answer. ?

[YODA]

Think simpler not more complex.

Think less not more.

[Knight_Errant]

Yeah, so you have the whole experiential world, reduced to a very simple thought. You have to be aware of the relationship between your own internal thought and the outside. Go simple, shrink down and use it all like little building bricks..
p.s. I am close to giving up...

[YODA]

p.s. I am close to giving up...

It may be a wise move as you're missing the boat completely. In fact - you've shown up at the wrong port :D

[khafra]

Gol-durn it, one hand doesn't make a sound.

[Knight_Errant]

Oh sod it. Please, put us out of our misery and TELL US!

[YODA]

Originally posted by khafra
Gol-durn it, one hand doesn't make a sound.


I didn't say it did :D

[YODA]

Originally posted by Knight_errant
Oh sod it. Please, put us out of our misery and TELL US!

[Cain]

Ok,

Yoda don't tell us the answer simply tell us how you got it, what's the concept?

|Cain|

[Knight_Errant]

What colour are elephants eggs, for that matter?

[pgm316]

Pink of course!

[YODA]

Originally posted by cain_charlie
Ok,

Yoda don't tell us the answer simply tell us how you got it, what's the concept?

|Cain|


Noooooooooooooooooo...............

[Cain]

Puuuuuhhhhhhlllllleeeeessssssshhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!


|Cain|

[YODA]

Originally posted by cain_charlie
Puuuuuhhhhhhlllllleeeeessssssshhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!


|Cain|

Nope

Not likely

No way Jose

Negatory

Non

Hindi

Nein

Nej

Mhai

Get the message?

[Knight_Errant]

given the (distinct) possibility that I am wasting my time and/or being taken for a ride, I'm going to have one more stab in the dark, because I am a ****ing idiot...
One hand clapping cannot make a sound that we can classify immediately, because one hand cannot clap. Furthermore, the idea has no reality outside the question. Likewise, elephants eggs have no colour because elephants are placental mammals...
Any good?

[Cain]

Originally posted by YODA
Nope

Not likely

No way Jose

Negatory

Non

Hindi

Nein

Nej

Mhai

Get the message?

Please?

[YODA]

Originally posted by Knight_errant

One hand clapping cannot make a sound that we can classify immediately.... blah blah blah

I'm gonna say this just ONE more time (((sigh)))

The question does not ask about clapping!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cain]

I know, you hav'nt even asked a question!!!! Just quoted someone!!!!

|Cain|

[YODA]

I said THE question - not MY question.

[Cain]

http://forums.3drealms.com/ubb/graemlins/brickwall.gifhttp://forums.3drealms.com/ubb/graemlins/brickwall.gifhttp://forums.3drealms.com/ubb/graemlins/brickwall.gifhttp://forums.3drealms.com/ubb/graemlins/brickwall.gifhttp://forums.3drealms.com/ubb/graemlins/brickwall.gifhttp://forums.3drealms.com/ubb/graemlins/brickwall.gif

[YODA]

That's more like it - at least now you're using your head :D

[hongkongfuey]

The echo of the completely empty valley bears tidings heard from the soundless sound.

Wow, 300 posts. Do I get an award?

[YODA]

Originally posted by hongkongfuey
The echo of the completely empty valley bears tidings heard from the soundless sound.

Wow, 300 posts. Do I get an award?


See the Admins :D

[hongkongfuey]

Cain - looks like you posted the wrong link. The correct one is :

One hand clapping answer (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2573)

[Cain]

U ain't foolin' me with that :D

I always check the status bar b'fore clickin' on a link ;)

But anyways I oughta halp ya so I will click for this once :D

|Cain|

[Mo Lung]

This is getting funnier by the post! ;)

[YODA]

Isn't it just? LOL!

Sure is a lot of noise seeing as there's only one hand, and it ain't clapping :D

[Knight_Errant]

300 posts? You beat my record, nooooooooooo! But the question DOES ask about hand clapping doesn't it?
Please please please give us the answer! I'm not clever enough to work this out! Take pity!

[johndoch]

Hey Knight the question was "In clapping both hands a sound is heard. What is the sound of one hand?"

Ignore the first part about clapping and ask yourself "What is the sound of one hand?"

Damned if I know I guess it depends what the hand is doing:confused:

[pgm316]

Hehe good point Doc,

What is the sound one hand?

:)

[Knight_Errant]

F all, I'd guess...

[YODA]

Originally posted by Knight_errant
F all, I'd guess...


Theer is a statement followed by a question - it seems most people's puny little brains simply cannot think about the question without relating it to the preceeding statement.

For example....

Grass is green.

What is soccer?

I bet 99% of answers would include the fact that Soccer is played on green grass LOL!

[Knight_Errant]

Is that IT? is that really all there is to this question?

[khafra]

Nah, that couldn't be "IT" (of course, IT turned out to be an electric scooter)
But it couldn't be 'cause I already covered that possibility in my first stab at an answer, saying the sound was whatever the hand was doing, like John Doch pointed out more recently.

[YODA]

LOL!

This is great - exactly as it's meant to be :D

[johndoch]

I've got sock on my hand its says lasagne is great. I believe the snake sock speaks the truth. So the sound of the hand must be Lasagne is great!!! :D :D

BTW when this thread going to die:woo:

[YODA]

I bow down to the might wisdom of the snake sock!

*Bows deeply

[Mo Lung]

Socks are cool. Except they're warm.

How cool is that?

:)

[YODA]

Very cool - in a warm snug kinda way :p

[pgm316]

Nothing is better than eternal happyness, yet a cheese sandwich is better than nothing, therefore a cheese sandwich is better than eternal happyness!

I like cheese sandwiches! :D

[YODA]

Can I have a little smudge of Marmite on that cheese sandwich?

[Greyghost]

oh god.....let it end now.

[johndoch]

So what noise does a hand make when its applying marmite to a cheese sandwich? is it different to pickle?:)

This will never end until we all become enlightened:confused:

[Knight_Errant]

No! the thread will go on! and infect your mind! It goes 'mmm, marmite and cheese... yeah.... ' have you tried marmite in porridge?

[YODA]

' have you tried marmite in porridge?

*Pukes with vigour

[Knight_Errant]

It's better than you think, I assure you. Adding the coffee and the salt as well was probably a mistake, though...

[YODA]

...... and the fried egg.

[YODA]

Originally posted by Greyghost
oh god.....let it end now.



It will never stop.

It's a guaranteed eternal sanctuary --- Man :D

Gotta go - my supper's ready.

(Sorry my mind tripped out back to the 70's for a minute there)

[Knight_Errant]

Aw yeah... Well, is there any further answering to be done? Does one hand 'make' a sound? :D

[YODA]

Originally posted by Knight_errant
Aw yeah... Well, is there any further answering to be done? Does one hand 'make' a sound? :D

Of course it CAN but does it should it and would it?

[Knight_Errant]

Oh god, please no, this is a head****...

[YODA]

As we say at work....

while(horsedead=1)
{
flog;
}

[-=|§ØÛ£|=-]

It means you think to think before you act, dumb-dumbs...

[Knight_Errant]

Huh? (Thick person overload)

[Andy Murray]

*Hint*

Grammar :D

[YODA]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
*Hint*

Grammar :D



Leave my Grammar outa this - you've never met her :D

[grandmaster mat]

this is filling my brain with overflowing anxioty for the idea of the question
there is no f****ng sound, there is no f****ng noise and there is no f****ng clappling!.
when you keep answering " " everyone is thinking "i cant see anything" or maybe "i can see nothing". i think that if they think the second one they are on the right tracks, i can see nothing but that doesnt mean there is nothing, there is something there we just cant see it. we have to believe it is there without ever seeing it, like we know air is all around us, we have been told it is all around us but we dont see it we breathe it and believe it is there because we breathe it. in the question there is a fact "in clapping both hands a sound is heard" and a question "what is the sound of one hand" these two have nothing to do with each other.there is no clapping and there is no sound. the fact is a fact but its not a fact to the question.
now its your turn to tell me im wrong abou everything and im in the wrong port too :D

[pgm316]

Originally posted by grandmaster mat
this is filling my brain with overflowing anxioty for the idea of the question
there is no f****ng sound, there is no f****ng noise and there is no f****ng clappling!.
when you keep answering " " everyone is thinking "i cant see anything" or maybe "i can see nothing". i think that if they think the second one they are on the right tracks, i can see nothing but that doesnt mean there is nothing, there is something there we just cant see it. we have to believe it is there without ever seeing it, like we know air is all around us, we have been told it is all around us but we dont see it we breathe it and believe it is there because we breathe it. in the question there is a fact "in clapping both hands a sound is heard" and a question "what is the sound of one hand" these two have nothing to do with each other.there is no clapping and there is no sound. the fact is a fact but its not a fact to the question.
now its your turn to tell me im wrong abou everything and im in the wrong port too :D

Maybe the two statments are connected, maybe there not, who knows what the person who said it meant, plus who says you can't take it to mean what you want anyway.

Its more a state of mind than an answer, or maybe it isn't!

:D

[grandmaster mat]

true, so air is made of many things, so the 'idea of the question' can have many interpretations too, i know there isnt only one answer there can't be, well maybe there is but different people think of it in different ways

[Andy Murray]

*Hint*

Punctuation.

[morphus]

:)

[Knight_Errant]

I think it's basically telling us that you should always be on your guard and not assume things about a question that aren't there.

[YODA]

:p

[morphus]

:)

[Robert Lehnert]

"The next person who calls me a "lesbian writer" I'm going to slap them silly! (By the way, _that's_ the sound of one hand clapping)
-Rita Mae Brown

[YODA]

Probably IS the sound of one hand clapping - but that wasn't the question :D

[Tosh]

Am am sitting at my Desk if anyone wants to hear the sound of one hand. I'll have to turn the stereo down though. :)

[Spanner]

Yoda you're a bad man ;)

This is the only way I can grasp it all...

"It will speak to you if you let it"

[nzric]

The idea is that you assume links between things, i.e. a sound as a result of a clap, a second question as a result of the first statement. Maybe another way to phrase the koan is ‘what/where is the sound before two hands clap?'. The sound is linked to the hands clapping but it is also an entity in itself, separate from the hands once the clap is performed.

The sound of one hand is the potential of all the sounds it can make. The word 'sound' is also be a metaphor for the expression of an action, like asking 'what is the destiny of a man'. Before the man is in a situation to create his destiny (within the world, by being one of the two hands clapping in order to manifest a connected but separate outcome), he contains the sound of his destiny, which also includes the choice to act (clap) or not to.

The koan draws you into thinking in a linear way (from a. to b.), which leads you to the zen understanding that everything is linked but they are also unique and contain within themselves the essence of everything (universe in a blade of grass etc.)

[inacan]

I have a buddy who can clap with one hand and make it echo, so that others can hear it. So I know what it sounds like.

A more hollow clap.

[mikelw]

Originally posted by morphus
CAN the sound of one hand be described?

Silence.

[Knight_Errant]

In the interests of perpetuating this thread:
The actual sound of the hand is irrelevant. It is more important that we realise that we are not being asked what the sound of one hand clapping is.

[YODA]

Originally posted by Knight_errant
In the interests of perpetuating this thread:
The actual sound of the hand is irrelevant. It is more important that we realise that we are not being asked what the sound of one hand clapping is.

Holy Smoke the lad's getting there :p

[nzric]

Um, that's the point - asking 'what is the sound of one hand' is like asking 'what is the destiny of this boy' - it is the acceptance of the potential contained in the hand, and the awareness of the sound as a separate thing in itself.

Check my post - I repeat - the flaw in people's interpretation is linking the second sentence to the act of clapping, and that is the very action that the koan is designed to educate you about.

I just answered it. I get the gold!!!

[Greg-VT]

nzric, have you read the enitire thread? Other responses have been there.

[Knight_Errant]

Hush! you'll stop the thread growing! I'm trying to get it 15 pages long!

[YODA]

Hehehe - the answer was on the 1st page :D

[snarg]

Grrrrr. I've held my tongue long enough...

Everyone, please don't fall into the trap of believing that Yoda (or anyone else) is a fount of ancient wisdom! Assuming that Yoda has the "correct" answer simply because he claims to, only feeds the ego monster!

And Yoda, you should be ashamed of yourself. It's one thing to suggest interesting topics to make people think and question their assumptions (which you do often and well), but it's quite another to hug yourself gleefully and go "nyah nyah I know the answer and you don't", or (even worse), "yes, my child, you have taken your first tiny steps on the journey to enlightenment, a journey which I, of course, have completed--now give me a foot rub".

But I could be completely wrong. Don't believe me either...

[booksie_girl]

I have just read all fifteen pages in one sitteing, I have previously avoided this thread because it was too long, all the while allowing it to grow longer withought my input.

I would just like to point out that despite Yoda's claim that the clapping is irrelevant, the thread title is "one hand clapping"

[Knight_Errant]

So it is! Demon! Snarg, don't take it too seriously...
15 pages! Go go go!

[YODA]

Originally posted by snarg
Grrrrr. I've held my tongue long enough...

Everyone, please don't fall into the trap of believing that Yoda (or anyone else) is a fount of ancient wisdom! Assuming that Yoda has the "correct" answer simply because he claims to, only feeds the ego monster!

ROFLMAO - Me? The "Correct" answer? LOL!

As for the rest of your rant - this koan has a definate purpose - and that purpose is being satisfied very well here thank you very much.

Now get off that soap box and go contribute something worthwhile to this place ya dirty great lurker :p

[booksie_girl]

It's actually quite funny watching people become extremely stirred up trying to find the answer. I can see Yoda grinning an evil grin under his horms. Unfortunately, I'm almost as frustrated as everyone else, I'm just deliberately not thinking about it because thinking about it will stir me up, and I won't be able to think normaly (or whatever gets classed as normal for me anyway) for days. I hate it when people try to make me think!

[TheBorderer]

Originally posted by YODA
"In clapping both hands a sound is heard. What is the sound of one hand?"

I know the answer :D

Does anyone else? If you DO then you will realise of course that it is impossible to give the answer here :D

I think that there isn't really an answer, its like the 'answer' is no answer (hmm sounds very Bruce Lee like). I think the first bit is meant to throw you off the scent, as I think others have realised, but when u think on it a hand can't really make a noise or sound by itself, it has to do something to make a sound.... but probably im totally wrong, but then in this poser by Yoda, is there a 'wrong' answer???

I have to admit trawling through this can get your head quit in a muddle! :confused: And I'm sure as soon as the 'answer' is spelt out, there's going to be a collective 'groan' from every MAPer who didn't know the answer!!! (me included possibly ;)) but then is there really an 'answer' to this at all???

[Jack]

Originally posted by YODA
Hehehe - the answer was on the 1st page :D

It was on every single page, noone bothered to look hard enough though. ;) :D

[YODA]

And I'm sure as soon as the 'answer' is spelt out, there's going to be a collective 'groan' from every MAPer who didn't know the answer!!!

Not very likely :p

It was on every single page, noone bothered to look hard enough though

Oh I think they looked - but kept looking for an answer - and the anwer doesn't lie in "looking".

[Jack]

hehe, true.

[TheBorderer]

Hmm very intriguing, I quite like these kind of things, ok they can really make you :confused: , but there good alll the same. No wonder it took you 15 years to work it out Yoda because it seems easy to 'go round in circles' (why this thread is 15 or so pages long!!!), but then as Andy said earlier about working it out in 15 seconds, I bet we all worked it out in 15 seconds but then didnt realise it and maybe for some of us still don't!!! :D

[Andy Murray]

I can't believe this thread is still going.

If the sound of two buttocks vibrating is a Fart. What does a cloud sound like?

[Rob_InDaUk]

Ahh, I always knew that Andy was the spiritual type :p

He just has a way with words, don't you think!?

[YODA]

He has a way with those "clouds" to - trust me :D

[Rob_InDaUk]

That is Andy's special weapon for his Army..

I know too much..He's gonna hunt me down!! AHH!

[TheBorderer]

Originally posted by Knight_errant
So it is! Demon! Snarg, don't take it too seriously...
15 pages! Go go go!

Hmm... actualy I think this should be 15 and a bit pages of posts considering Yoda said it took him "About 15 years" to figure it out, then 15 pages sounds quite apt when you think about it as there's a few connection with 15! (hmm yes I know I'm 'trying' to be clever... so what? :p) I bet Yoda thought of that tho!!! :D

[grandmaster mat]

I know the answer

Does anyone else? If you DO then you will realise of course that it is impossible to give the answer here

theres the answer. if im right

[nzric]

It's easy.

The hand doesn't have a sound, but sound is innate in the hand.

I like the destiny metaphor as well so I'll say it again... yeah, I've read the other posts but I don't think anyone else mentioned it.

And Yoda, you can do the "I know something you don't know" forever, but unless you put your cards on the table everybody will start to think you know even less about the true meaning of the koan than those who have taken an honest shot at it.

[snarg]

And Yoda, you can do the "I know something you don't know" forever, but unless you put your cards on the table everybody will start to think you know even less about the true meaning of the koan than those who have taken an honest shot at it.

Holy crap... it's sucking me back in again. Sigh... nzric, here's my reply to your post:
[list=1]
Yoda "gets away" with stuff that outsiders might consider a tad anti-social because he's been around a long time, built up a reputation for being clever and is generally well-regarded within the forum. If a complete stranger tried the same, he/she would be heckled out of existence. Please note, I'm not trying to start a Yoda-bashing club, just protesting against personality cults in general, always a problem in these "online communities". (Besides, Yoda's not the only example on MAP --see the thread on "Andy's secret army"...)

It's not a competition! Who's to judge if someone "knows more about the true meaning" than anyone else? Ponder, discuss, argue, rant, great. But surely your outlook/opinions/philosophy/life should be your own, and don't need to be validated by some authority?

Yoda's already stated his position on this koan numerous times (e.g. "the answer's on the first page", "grammar", etc.) so is there really a problem of "holding back his cards"?
[/list=1]
Now to clarify my previous post...

Despite the fact that by posting here I am playing into the hands of certain parties whose intention is to make this thread live for as long as possible :P, I've decided that this issue (which is perhaps an "issue" in no-one's eyes but my own) is important enough for me to speak my mind.

I think it important to treat other people's views with respect, i.e. without condescension, regardless of what beliefs I may hold, and regardless of how misguided/naive/rash/blind/ungrammatical I may privately consider the other person to be. Rather than saying "No, that's not the right answer", wouldn't it be kinder and less arrogant to say "OK, that's your view, and this is what I think about it, now what do you think of this other point"? Especially if holding some sort of position of "power" in the social pecking order.

[Digression: I despise hierarchy, but I recognize that it exists. The above should not be construed as some sort of endorsement of a hierarchical social structure.]

Let me just repeat that my purpose is NOT to heap abuse on Yoda. I admire his efforts on behalf of MAP and have benefitted from many of his thoughtful posts. My intent was simply to address an issue which I believe is common to communities all over the net.

Yoda, I apologize if I have caused any offence, and welcome your thoughts on what I've said.

[YODA]

Originally posted by snarg


It's not a competition! Who's to judge if someone "knows more about the true meaning" than anyone else? Ponder, discuss, argue, rant, great. But surely your outlook/opinions/philosophy/life should be your own, and don't need to be validated by some authority?


An excellent point very well put!

As for the rest of your post - you're taking this WAY too seriously. Take a look over your shoulder - around the room maybe - that's real life out there!

[YODA]

Originally posted by nzric

And Yoda, you can do the "I know something you don't know" forever, but unless you put your cards on the table everybody will start to think you know even less about the true meaning of the koan than those who have taken an honest shot at it.

"everybody will start to think????" - Cool :D

That's the whole idea!

[Andrew Green]

"In clapping both hands a sound is heard. What is the sound of one hand?"

Did anyone get it, I didn't read through the thread, but it seems simple enough, what's the problem guys? :D

Actually the answer (that I got anyway) is really simple... It's all in the wording ;)

Actually I had a high school math teacher give a similar question on a test, was pretty funny when almost the whole class got bacj 0's on it, especially since it required no math skills at all to do :D

[Cain]

I think Andrew switched something on...

Both hands....a sound is heard.....so the sound of one hand.....am I on the right track Yoda :D

|Cain|

[Tosh]

Originally posted by cain_charlie
I think Andrew switched something on...

Both hands....a sound is heard.....so the sound of one hand.....am I on the right track Yoda :D

|Cain|

I'd say your almost near the question Cain, now how about the answer?

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
I can't believe this thread is still going.

If the sound of two buttocks vibrating is a Fart. What does a cloud sound like?

Depends if the cloud is wet or not! :eek:

Is it a toot or a whoosh :D

[Cain]

Read it carefully Tosh, the wording, it's kinda obvious to see the answer :D

The answer I think is "half" the sound I mean both hands - one sound so one hand....u see? :D

|Cain|

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by cain_charlie
The answer I think is "half" the sound I mean both hands - one sound so one hand....u see? :D

|Cain|

:D WRONG! :D

[Greg-VT]

:D

[pgm316]

Yeah I've got to agree, thats just so wrong Cain, it screams wrong at me! :D

Its just a hand, what does a hand sound like?

[Greg-VT]

Hmm. I going to have another swing at this...

Put simply, the sound of one is whatever is before it.

(NOT before as in time, the other 'before' :) )

[tang_sou_dao]

its like the sound of a tree falling in the woods with no 1 around, what does it sound like?

[Greg-VT]

Originally posted by tang_sou_dao
its like the sound of a tree falling in the woods with no 1 around, what does it sound like?

No, not sound, noise.

EDIT: Sorry, I should rephrase that...
"If a tree falls in a forest, and nothing is around to hear it, does it make a noise?"

Its quite a bit different from this koan.

[tang_sou_dao]

yeah but none have an answer there is no real answer that is either right or wong

[Greg-VT]

Hmm, maybe there is.
lol, I just can't wait to hear Yoda say I'm wrong again :)

[tang_sou_dao]

a ha its the sound of '' '' (puts his hand out and *not a sound neither silence* is heard

[YODA]

If a man speaks in a forest - and there is no woman to hear him- Is he still wrong?

:Angel:

[Knight_Errant]

I know the answer! Hold your hand out straight, then flap the fingers into your palm, and it goes 'clap'!
That, my friends, is the sound of one hand clapping!

Furthermore, the tree goes 'yeeeeeeeeeeer-crash'.

[Cain]

I can do that actually ;)

|Cain|

[nzric]

"everybody will start to think????" - Cool

That's the whole idea!


__________________


Well put.

It's good to know Yoda is well-respected in this site - I'm just getting used to personalities.

My point is, koans can't be solved, they have so many different interpretations and yeah, everybody's is as valid, but the people who think they have a good angle on the interpretation should try to help/lead those who may not understand too well, not show off that they have the answer and others don't.

Anyway, the aim of this thread was to get people thinking about the koan and it obviously worked, so despite all that well done Yoda.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by nzric
but the people who think they have a good angle on the interpretation should try to help/lead those who may not understand too well, not show off that they have the answer and others don't.



help/lead ?

I've gift wrapped the answer!

AAAAAaaaarrrrrggggh!

[Greg-VT]

Originally posted by Knight_errant
I know the answer! Hold your hand out straight, then flap the fingers into your palm, and it goes 'clap'!
That, my friends, is the sound of one hand clapping!

Furthermore, the tree goes 'yeeeeeeeeeeer-crash'.

It's got nothing to do with one hand clapping :D.

And it's not whether the tree goes 'yeeeeeeeeeeer-crash', it's whether it makes a noise ;)