How long does it really take to get a black belt?

[Lafhastum]

Now while Taekwondo is a great martial art it's reputation has been severly tarnished by mcdojangs. I remember when I was kid one of the kids at my school became a black belt in a little less than 2 years. Nwo this kid was over weight, had a complete lack if respect and discispline and he went around hitting girls for no reason. But lets say somone was to go to a real Dojang and really learn TKD. How long would it take them to get a black belt? I am not interested in practicing TKD right now, just very curious.

[Amnion]

Typically, 3 years. That's for an average person with something 2-3 classes per week. Obviously if someone is naturally gifted, has prior experience, or trains more than that, they might come along faster. But even so, the instructor SHOULD stick to the same testing schedule for everybody, so even then, it'll take the same amount of time. I can understand if it takes 2 years, but the person had also better be held to the same standards. That's just my opinion.

[Jackie Li]

Typically, 3 years. That's for an average person with something 2-3 classes per week.

That fast! My school it takes about 7 years if your good enough!

[Chris_sirhC]

I couldn't imagine any school giving out a blackbelt after only three years experience with an art.

I know we all have our own opinions... and yes to each their own... but I think I would have a hard time respecting a black belt given after so short a time spent training. I think it completely belittles an art and the people who truely spent a much longer time in mastering it. I think it completely takes away the signifigance (spelling) of such a rank.

But maybe thats the way now, I know it never used to be. I know through experience that even twenty years ago the idea of a black belt in three years was a near to impossible dream. Even in Taekwondo, my father ended his eight years of training with a brown belt.

So are people just that good now, or are belts just meaning that much less?

[xxblackkatxx]

oh wow..... 7 years? at my school it takes about 1 1/2 - 2 years, but that's if you REALLY learn your stuff and are damn good at it.

hearing that it takes everyone else so much longer makes me question the authenticity of my dojang, but it's odd, i feel as if everything they teach me is correct, i feel like it all mkaes logical sense...

i don't know what to think about the time in my school compared to others... hmmm....

[d33pthought]

The average student who works hard and pays attention can probably achieve 1st black in about 2 and a half years at my school. After that, though, it's at least 2 years to 2nd, and I don't know how long to 3rd. I do know we had our first 3rd dan test in over 10 years back in October.

I've seen some of our black belt classes, and they really start to open it up there. All the stuff in the gup ranks are fundamentals and they start to come together once you get first black.

[NRees]

oh wow..... 7 years? at my school it takes about 1 1/2 - 2 years, but that's if you REALLY learn your stuff and are damn good at it.

hearing that it takes everyone else so much longer makes me question the authenticity of my dojang, but it's odd, i feel as if everything they teach me is correct, i feel like it all mkaes logical sense...

i don't know what to think about the time in my school compared to others... hmmm....
Not saying you are in a mcdojang, but think of it this way. It would make sense, because you don't know otherwise :p

In my club it usually take 6-7 years, and thats if you pass every grading in the minimum time.

[d33pthought]

oh wow..... 7 years? at my school it takes about 1 1/2 - 2 years, but that's if you REALLY learn your stuff and are damn good at it.

hearing that it takes everyone else so much longer makes me question the authenticity of my dojang, but it's odd, i feel as if everything they teach me is correct, i feel like it all mkaes logical sense...

i don't know what to think about the time in my school compared to others... hmmm....

I wouldn't worry about it too much. Eventually, you may want to see other school or enter in competitions just to see how well you stack up against other people though.

[Fish Of Doom]

for a proof of a "REAL MCDOJANG", read my last journal entry, though i don't know if it's true, my friend said it cam out on the newspaper,
paraguay is full of mcdojangs

[JWH]

Chris,
I would like to make a point, Gen. Choi stated to be a 1st dan you have to know all the" basics". When you reach 1st dan Black Belt in Tae kwon do you are a long ways from "mastering" it. He didn't even consider 2 and 3rd Dan to be advanced.

[TKD-Junkie]

took me about 5yrs of combined trainning to get my black belt. honestly, i hate seeing so many black belts with such poor skill. the only thing i can say on their behalf is that some people have physical and mental limitations and SOMETIMES thats the best they can be. (yes their ALOT of BB who dont desreve it)

really i think it should come down to not only the school thinking ur rdy but u yourself. if u know that u are not black belt material, then DONT TEST. i passed up black belt testing twice b/c i knew that i still had things i needed to improve.

lastly, getting ur black belt is when the real trainning starts in my opinion. :)

[TigerAnsTKDLove]

3 to 4 years.. I go to TKD 3 days a week. My last 2 belts Junior Deputy is 4 months cuz u have to know everythingfrom White to Purple and thats everything... Senior Deputy 6 months and longer cuz you have to know White- Senior Deputy and that contains everything also. The Testing for black belt at my school is like around 3 hours maybe more. Every school is different. :bang:

[samharber]

Theres a reformed McDojoist over at Bullshido.net who's posted some interesting stuff that will probably be of interest to people in this thread.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19824
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19870

For those of you at dojangs where fast promotion is the norm, consider how much money you pay for your gradings and how much you will have spent in the course of becoming a blackbelt.
The returns for the dojang tend to be much higher if the rate of promotion is faster. God help you if you got your blackbelt as part of a package deal with the rest of the family.

[tekkengod]

at my school, one of the BB's who missed like 7 testing opportunities got his after 3 years, typically it takes 18 months if you are good, an average person takes 2 years though.

[Kwan Jang]

I think part of the problem is that in Japan and Korea, students can receive their first dan usually in 18 months. Over there, 1st dan really is not as big a deal as it is taken elsewhere. To a large extent, when the first generation of instructors went abroad, especially those trained in the military returning home, many (if not most) were 1st or 2nd dans. When they promoted these "new" arts in their native countries, their status as black belts were perceived and often promoted as experts.

To compound the problem, back in the 50's-early 80's, most schools had their brown or red belts as very tough, high level athletes and fighters. To reach black, you truly were a step above with many of these schools. Starting in the '80's, there was a watering down of standards in Asia due to the widespread inclusion of these arts in the regular education system. Also, in the USA and later Europe and Australia, you saw a shift in emphasis form effectiveness to effort.

In part, I agree that in many ways that this was a good thing to change from an elimination process to a growth one. It helped many students truly reach a high level by encouragement and support rather than driving them away. However, both factors have been exploited by those who wanted to water down the standards for economic gain. The attitude of "well, at least they come to class...(or at least pay their tuition), and "it takes this long in Japan/Korea/Fill in the blank"; can justify this to some.

For my school and our assn., the average for a progressing, hard working, student is roughly 4 years of consistant training and progress to reach 1st dan. I have had students that have trained consistantly for more than eight years not reach black until they realized that they had to step it up a level and really bust it. I have had a few that have lived and breathed their training (and I felt like just putting a cot in the school for them who have done it in 3 1/2 years. Keep in mind, our cirriculum is comprehensive to Muay Thai, Submission grappling, TKD, and arnis by 1st dan. So there is quite a bit to gain a level of competence with. It would be VERY difficult to achieve this in less time than 3-3 1/2 years.

[d33pthought]

No wonder it takes so long if you're doing all that. We used to have Hapkido classes along with Taekwondo, but they stopped that just before I joined up. There's still some remnants of it in the Self-Defense classes, but nothing on the tests until blue or brown belt.

[JKD_forever]

At school my brother goes it takes around 7-10 years + 10 years from 1 dan to 8 dan. There are some serious looking yellow belts
lol

[d33pthought]

I guess the meat of his curriculum is given in the ranks leading to 1st dan, if it takes that long to get it, and that long again to get through seven more dan ranks.

[Amnion]

I mentioned this in another forum, but I'll do it here as well. Bill Wallace got his black belt in 6 months. This may sound absolutely absurd, but Bill Wallace then went on to win 23 consecutive fights, and retired undefeated. At one point, his feet were the fastest in the world, clocked at over 60 mph.
I don't think it's the belt that makes you good, but I can understand certainly that if a person put in a lot of time, effort, and dedication and got their black belt, that seeing someone get one who probably doesn't deserve it is a pretty hefty blow.
But I wouldn't stress over it, because I don't think anything can be done about it. When/if you get your own school or get to teach, just be sure you hold every one of your students to that high standard that you know should be there, and no one can hold it against you. Plus, you'll always know that you deserve everything you get, and you'll also know that your students also deserve it.

[Xue Fang]

In my school, it'll take you three and a half years, minimum to get to black belt, that's if you grade every time and pass every time, but some people in my school don't always grade. If our instructors feel that you won't be able to pass the grading, they won't submit you, and they'll make you stay at the same belt for another three months before you can try to grade again. But I think that's good. If my instructors don't want me to grade, I respect their judgement, and I'd be happy to have the opportunity to learn more about the level I'm on. I'd rather not grade if I'm going to fail than grade and make a fool of myself and have wasted money on the grading.

[Mr. Mike]

I started my IKCA Kenpo training in April. Just this month, the instructor lifted all of my testing time standards, due to the fact that I'm in training to take over a new school. An accelerated instructor program, he called it. But, he also said that I will be held to an extremely high standard. But, alittle history is in order...I'm not altogether unfamiliar with the arts...I was in american freestyle karate ni high school, trained some kickboxing and TKD. So, alot of the basics weren't new to me.

At any rate, I eat sleep and breathe my training...I've lost 70lbs since april(yeah, I was beefcake), and am content only to train to the highest standards...I'm there six days a week, teach the little dragons class, am in leadership team, and practice at home in my spare time...all the time, in fact, I was doing my form tonight at the nurse's station because I needed to get through a sticking point. THere wasn't anybody around, so it wasn't like I was truing to show off, but still...just an idea of how serious I am.

That being said, I will get my blue belt on Jan. 26 and just have green, brown, then black. I have set a personal goal of black belt by my birthday which is September 11. Thsi would mean that in 18 mos, I will have gone from white to black. McDojo? I don't think so. My instructor is one half of the tournament association in our area, has four black belts, 4th dan in IKCA, and has just become NBL sanctioned...so, I think it's there. I feel that black belt is not the destination, but another intersection in a lifelong journey. IKCA states that you can test for dan every three years, not sooner...so there will be no quicker promotion from 1st dan.

Dunno what else to say. I think it depends upon the system, school, instructor, student, and of course other empirical factors.

[Artikon]

Dunno what else to say. I think it depends upon the system, school, instructor, student, and of course other empirical factors.

I think this pretty much sums it up. It really doesn't matter length of time. Every system is different and every instructor is different. Curriculums differ, class size differ, goals of the black belt are different.

When it all comes down to it a black belt, despite it being a incredible accomplishment in the martial arts, is just another level and plateau.

[MarioBro]

Yes, this is kind of a silly question/discussion as it will and should depend on your ability and your instructor. They should be able to determine whether or not you are ready to test for your next belt for all of the gup belts (I have heard that it 'should' be around 3 to 6 months per test average).

As stated earlier, the black belt only means you have learned oll of the basics needed to begin truly learning the art. There will also be many differences based on the business aspect of the club as well. If your members tend to be those who will keep going until they achieve a black belt no matter what, then they can increase the time between tests significantly. If they tend to be those who will not stick it out if progress is not seen, them they would want to increase the frequentcy of tests.

In any case, it all balances out in the end, since those who are serious will remain with it after receiving a black belt, and those who only wanted the belt will fade away. Those who were serious will continue to improve themselves long after the wanna-be's have all gone.

So in conclusion, stop with all of the nonsense of 'if you test more than once every XX months/years, then you are at a McDojo!' boloney. Stop all the 'If he is a black belt in only 2 years, then bla, bla, bla...' crap. If they are serious about their training, they will excel and it will all balance out in the end...so just

STOP IT!!

Oh ya, and MERRY CHRISTMAS everyone (well, everyone who celebrate/endulges in xmas!)

[JKD_forever]

As stated earlier, the black belt only means you have learned all of the basics needed to begin truly learning the art.

That's not true. Or, let’s say it shouldn't be like that. Basics???
Get real.

I've seen some yellow belts that could kick ass much better than some black belts that get their new belt every 3 months. But, hey, black belt knows 2594235 forms.

As i said, my brother is going to itf tkd school where it takes near 10 years to get black belt. Now that is something for respect.
What's the point in getting new belt every 3 months anyway??
So you can show you mommy and daddy?
:rolleyes:

[glenchuy]

I mentioned this in another forum, but I'll do it here as well. Bill Wallace got his black belt in 6 months.

isn't bill "superfoot" wallace's discipline kickboxing?

[seikido]

There are official time in rank numbers by the ITF. (http://www.itatkd.com/tkdmintime.html) according to their MINIMUM requirements, a black belt should take at least 3 1/2 years, "based on a student who attends class at least three days every week, with each class being at least one and one-half hours in length."

[Artikon]

At school my brother goes it takes around 7-10 years + 10 years from 1 dan to 8 dan. There are some serious looking yellow belts

I'm not sure I understand this. Are you saying 20 years total to 8th dan, or 10 years between each dan rank?

That's not true. Or, let’s say it shouldn't be like that. Basics???

Well for certain schools black belt is different things. Why not only teach and train basics up until black belt? Basics after all are the root of everything and generally in a real altercation people will generally revert to simplest things they know. Basics.

Besides if you train all that advanced stuff before black belt, what left do you have to learn during the dan levels?

[Amnion]

isn't bill "superfoot" wallace's discipline kickboxing?

He was a karate man, competed in full-contact kickboxing, yeah. But what my point was is that he was extremely talented, and still is.
And the rest of this post is in no way connected to what you said, glenchuy...

Do people honestly believe that there are no people out there who possess skills to excel at things at a much faster rate than most others? Some kids I know can play anything on the guitar by ear, while others are out making money in bands and they suck. Does that mean that the kid, while he's been playing for 2 years is nothing compared to the "veteran" who's making big bucks but still can't play to save his life? I think it all boils down to skill. That's what matters. I don't have a black belt, but I still have some skills I know some of the black belts I've seen don't have. Am I whining about it? No. Sometimes I get a little urked, but as long as I know that I'm making progress and that I'll never accept anything I don't think/know I didn't earn, I'm good to go.

I think this pretty much sums it up. It really doesn't matter length of time. Every system is different and every instructor is different. Curriculums differ, class size differ, goals of the black belt are different.
I agree.

[TKD-Junkie]

Do people honestly believe that there are no people out there who possess skills to excel at things at a much faster rate than most others? Some kids I know can play anything on the guitar by ear, while others are out making money in bands and they suck. Does that mean that the kid, while he's been playing for 2 years is nothing compared to the "veteran" who's making big bucks but still can't play to save his life? I think it all boils down to skill. That's what matters. I don't have a black belt, but I still have some skills I know some of the black belts I've seen don't have. Am I whining about it? No. Sometimes I get a little urked, but as long as I know that I'm making progress and that I'll never accept anything I don't think/know I didn't earn, I'm good to go.


i agree there are some extremely tanlented people who can test and have the potiental to be a BB in a short amount of time.

but i think what alot of people are saying is there are alot of BB who dont deserve it, regardless of how little or how much time they spent trainning.

[JKD_forever]

I'm not sure I understand this. Are you saying 20 years total to 8th dan, or 10 years between each dan rank?

former.
You know some1 who lives 160 years?

[Artikon]

former.
You know some1 who lives 160 years?

Thanks for clearing that up. Now not saying this is wrong or anything but by your arguement time to black belt matters? Does time not matter after you reach black belt? I would think an 8th dan to have spent their lives training, teaching, and promoting their art. Although 20 years is a very long time I really don't consider that a lifetime.

Again I'm not saying that this is wrong for this particular school/art/system, however the point is that time is relevant to the art/instructor/style/curriculum/etc . . . There is no set time to recieve a black belt. One year is quick but not unheard of and I don't think I would particularly bash a school or instructor or practicioner simply based on that. One has to look at what the product and what the goal of that particular level is in that particular school. That in my mind is much more important than how long it takes a particular person to reach the dan grades.

Just as a comparrision it would take myself approximately 30 years to achieve an 8th dan with the idea that I make 1st dan in 2 years, and that I would test at every possible time eligable and succeeded at every exam . . . time is relevant ;)

[kayraku]

in are TKD class it takes 3 months per belt untill you get to ornge green takes 4 months blue takes purple takes 8 red takes a year brown takes a year and black takes a year so usally it should take 4 years and around 9 months. some people think its a wast but are clases with our white belts being trained just as white for 3 or 4 months, are usally the best whites at tournament. so that thing they say when paitence is a virtue, they wern,t kidding

[Kwan Jang]

Under most traditional old-school standards, twenty years would put you at 4th or 5th dan. To the earlier comment (no offense taken) about the majority of our cirriculum being under first dan, that is definitely NOT the case. The cirriculum and standards increase dramatically upon each dan grade. Though the testing is the same for 4th-7th (we do not use higher than 7th dan).

[Andy Cap]

I have been training 27 years in Tang Soo Do. I was eligable to test for my 5th dan a year and a half ago, but I have nodesire to go up in rank. To reach 8th dan in 20 years would create a glut in most organizations of inflated egos.

We are discussing the time to grade here in terms of ability, but you should also consider maturity. There is a lot to be said for patience and ability to strive without a goal dangling in front of you.

I think one of the greatest tests of being a dan level martial artist is that you no longer have this carrot dangling in front of you every 3-6 months. If you are to get better you must learn to develop yourself without the promotion as a goal. Going 3 years without the affirmation of a test can be tough for some people.

[neryo_tkd]

If you are to get better you must learn to develop yourself without the promotion as a goal.


I agree. I think in the beginning almost everybody wants to get their belt, especially children, but in time all martial artists should develop and become mature enough to know that it's the skill that matters and not the paper.

[Artikon]

it's the skill that matters and not the paper.

YOUR BELT IS MADE OF PAPER?! :D :p

[inbuninbu]

We are discussing the time to grade here in terms of ability, but you should also consider maturity. There is a lot to be said for patience and ability to strive without a goal dangling in front of you.

I think one of the greatest tests of being a dan level martial artist is that you no longer have this carrot dangling in front of you every 3-6 months. If you are to get better you must learn to develop yourself without the promotion as a goal. Going 3 years without the affirmation of a test can be tough for some people.

Well said... I actually prefer to train without an official goal ie grading dangling in front of me, I prefer having several months in between gradings. For example my last grading was in March my next should have been probably the beginning of next yr but that doesn't bother me. I like being able to focus on personal targets and accomplishing them, altho of course official affirmation is always good too! :D

It takes (on average) about 6 or 7 yrs to grade 1st dan at my school and that's practicing a few times a wk. I personally feel that 2/3 yrs sounds too fast however this is *generally* speaking and doesn't account for ppl w exceptional talent/dedication.

The BB grading at my school I have heard described in many ways, the most repeatable way being "gruelling" or "tough." ;) My friend said to me it was the hardest thing he's ever done - and that I think is as it should be.

Lastly I do believe it's imprtant to remember that BB is just the start and not the be all and end all as so many (esp non-MAists) percieve it. Comments?

[Mr. Mike]

very well said...it seems that the general public thinks that a person with a black belt is indestructible. WRONG!
it is the beginning of a very long journey.

in my school, it typically takes about 4yrs. there are some that have taken 6-7yrs, and some that have taken 2.5-3yrs...I might be some kind of a record, but I have experience, and no testing restrictions...it all adds up.

[neryo_tkd]

YOUR BELT IS MADE OF PAPER?! :D :p

:D :D :D

when you go to the dojang, you don't carry the paper with you, do you??? :p

[Jackie Li]

[QUOTE=TKD-Junkie] honestly, i hate seeing so many black belts with such poor skill. QUOTE]


Amen!! Your so right. I don't meen to boast or anything but when i had my first belt in Wushu i was a lot better that a lot of black belts at my Tae Kwon Do school. They were awful! So many have black belts and suck bad. Im sick of it.

[Thomas]

Kwan Jang: great posts!

At our school, a student who trains in the dojang about 6-8 hours weekly (or more) and practices at home and is deemed ready to test at each opportunity, it will take at the very least 2 and a half years... although the normnal time within our school is about 3-4 years for 1st dan. (Some people who rise quicker have a background in another art and pick the concepts and effective practice quicker.) Take a look in my journal to see what we cover in classes on a normal basis.

Something I wanted to point out though concerns the training of an art in Korea for example (I trained in Hapkido and TKD and dan tested in Korea). The process was faster than in the states... because of a couple different reasons. The first reason was that the schools I choose offered lots of classes and I was able to get into a class (equivilent to a "Black Belt club") that met morning and night daily. We trained about 4-5 hours daily and were able to progress faster. Granted, the class was limited to students approved by the master.

The other main concern is that I found the curriculum for both TKD and Hapkido in Korea to be much simpler. We learned fairly small blocks of technqiues and practiced them over and over and I learned most of the required techniques for black belt at white and yellow belt levels. The rest of the time was spent practicing the technqiues over and over. For black belt we weren't evaluated on how many diffiult and flashy technqiues we knew... but rather on how well we could apply the handfull of basic technqiues that we had first encountered at the beginning of our training. This was to show the true essence of a omprhension of the basic concepts, I believe. I think some programs in the states try to be comprehensive and therefore need a bigger array of techniques and skills... and this in itself will necessitate a longer period of basic learning just to reach 1st dan. I know that's how our school works.

[ClumsyFoot]

There is a lot to be said for patience and ability to strive without a goal dangling in front of you.

I think one of the greatest tests of being a dan level martial artist is that you no longer have this carrot dangling in front of you every 3-6 months. If you are to get better you must learn to develop yourself without the promotion as a goal.

Ah!! There you have it, laddie!

[angry]

About half an hour!

Less if your closer to the martial arts store. Or a few days if your order them.

After all, I brought a dozen black belts two weeks ago to have embrioded and that didn't take long at all.

Belt ranking is not and is never likely to be consistant between schools. I meet a 4th Dan recently who had only been training for 8 years! While he wasn't a white belt he still was lacking skills in a lot of areas. In his school, he was at a level to be considered a 4th Dan! Ranking has not been around long historically and many where given ranks quickly during the martial arts booms in the 60's and 70's. This was for many reason, to open a club for their instructor, for money, because they trained real hard etc....

Since belt ranks were incosistant from the start it is not fair to judge a black belt with another.

If you really want a black belt, go buy one. I prefer the leather type as they can be used with normal pants etc... much more useful. To earn a dan ranking go to a M.A. school and do what they require.

See not hard at all! :)

[neryo_tkd]

it is not fair to judge a black belt with another :)

a lot of people judge martial artists by the colour of their belt, and thus think if someone has a black one, they are skilled. people who don't train martial arts and people whose realtives or friends don't train either have no other way of judging someone.

and what angry said about not judging one black belt with another, we all have to keep in mind that 2 students will pass the black belt test with let's say different grades, but the essential here is that they did PASS. just like in school, 2 students can graduate from a university and become engineers. one of them could have had the best grades, and the other one lousy grades. conclusion is that they are both engineers. someone (professors, instructors....) decided that both had knowledge at the minimum or more than that, but again enough to pass.

[robbjedi]

I go 6 times a week and would recieve mine in 2 years at my school, but right from the beggining my instructor told me. Sure its an accomplishment......but your the LOWEST rank of blackbelt it doesnt mean your undefeatable. It doesnt mean your an expert, it means youve learned the basics. We also have 3 different ranks for the first 3 dans (probitonary, decided and senior)

[inbuninbu]

It's also of vital importance to remember that there are just so many factors that determine how quickly a person progresses in any subject or discipline. You have to take into account for BB, for example, how often the person trains, what curriculum they're on and their level of innate ability. Just like in a science experiemtn, so mant things affect the outcome.

That BB you talked to the other day might have trained Twigger-style (read Angry White Pyjamas?) all day ever day for a yr or two on an intense course to get their belt.

Antother one might be 40-smth and just getting their first dan, ahving struggled through illness/injusry plus juggling work and kids.

Some ppl may never reach 1st dan, for most it will be a challenge and a hard-earned rank once they get there... for the very few it'll be a walk in the park. (Grr. :woo: Some ppl!)

[gemtkd]

If you grade every time that you can - every 3 months til green belt then every 6 months there after about 3 years

[stevetkd]

I have been studying the art for 6 years, i attend around 5 hours of training a week and also train around 20-30 hours a week on general fitness, flexability and strength.
I have won a few medals in sparring events on a national level and i am only a blue belt. You do get naturally flexible, naturally fit people who maybe can acheive a bleckbelt in two years but this will be through the memorising of Tul(patterns) and not through true mastery of the art.

Hope this is helpfull

[MarioBro]

That's not true. Or, let’s say it shouldn't be like that. Basics???
Get real.

Perhaps I was misunderstood. By basics I mean that all the required patterns, etc have been learned, but not mastered. Once reaching black belt is the time to begin mastering all of the previously learned to a degree of mastery, including even the very first patterns, step sparring, 4 way offence/defense, etc.

Anyone who reaches black belt MUST know all of the required stuff, and this is the point where those who are not serious about TKD will usually depart as they have attained their goal of a BB. Those who continue will actually master the art and that is why I call the achievement of the black belt a starting point...

[spacepimp]

What I am noticing is the assumption of many people to assume everything is the same across all schools... one poster earlier alluded to the fact that their many factors to take into consideration as well. To give you an example at my school, we never have more than ten students per class; this gives a lot of time to individual students so they may learn faster with the individual attention versus a school with 50+ students per class which means it will require more individual initiative to properly learn their style. Personal drive makes up for a lot as well. I will be achieving black belt status soon, after a little less than two years... My black belt test will include performing all 8 tageuk's back to back, with the last one done blindfolded. At least three sparring sessions back to back, some board breaking, demonstration of different self defenses against multiple attackers, and lastly whatever my instructor can come up with....

[neryo_tkd]

I have been studying the art for 6 years, i attend around 5 hours of training a week and also train around 20-30 hours a week on general fitness, flexability and strength.

that means that you train your general fitness, flexability and strength at least 3 hours every day, if not 4, plus taekwondo i.e. in average you train at least 4 hours a day. if you don't train on sundays, that would mean at least 5 hours a day :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[rtkd]

i dont think it really matters how fast it takes u to get your black belt, i mean if your getting graded by a true master and he thinks your ready then whos to argue. Bas rutten recieved his black belt in tkd in under 1 and half yrs. a hes known as one of the greatest stand up fighters.
flying through dans in no time is a different thing though.

[MarioBro]

i dont think it really matters how fast it takes u to get your black belt, i mean if your getting graded by a true master and he thinks your ready then whos to argue. Bas rutten recieved his black belt in tkd in under 1 and half yrs. a hes known as one of the greatest stand up fighters.
flying through dans in no time is a different thing though.Careful...you will upset those who cannot get their BB in under 5 years (or whatever) since if that is how their school is then all others that can get it in less time must be no good! :rolleyes:

[Londonrich]

'3 years' for us. Though that is 3 university years (we are not there during the summer months and holidays remember), so its an accelerated course. However most people would train with a local club when they return home, i have seen several people fail at our association gradings, i would say our standards are high.

[Rabid Wombat]

I find that it's much better going slow. So many people have passed me in rank, but (yes, it sounds a bit conceited) I feel like a lot of my skills are better than theirs. Sure, they know an extra form, or some techniques that I don't know, but it's better to have a strong base. If you know 8 forms and can remember them accurately, it's better than knowing 15 (we learn Taeguks and Hyungs) forms but being unable to move through them fluidly (is that a word?) and accurately. Currently, I've been in it for four years and I'm 3rd G(K)up. The bare minimum at our dojo is 2 1/2 years, and I can't remember anyone ever getting their first dan anywhere near that (maybe 4 1/2 to 5 years on average).

[MarioBro]

Ok, enough of this stuff already.

2 years or 4 years or even 8 years...who cares!? If you continue to do martial arts beyond black belt then who really cares? If you have committed yourself to continue then who cares? If you enjoy it then who cares?

If you get a black belt in 2 years then great, if 8 years then great. It is all great. No period of time to get a black belt is better than another...just keep doing it and that is what counts.

Jeesh...:rolleyes:.

[Taekdragon]

On this topic, after much thought I think the amount of time is dependant on how well you learn the techniques as well as on the quality of instruction. Basically if you can't learn the techniques properly then you should not be passing your gradings :bang: . All schools have different requirements when it comes to grading and when it come to Dan grading (at least in the WTF) your school needs to follow the KKW criteria. At the school that I am a student at, you can expect that by attending a minimum of 3 classes per week and not being a slow learner it can take 3 - 7 years to obtain 1st dan. I actually obtained my 1st dan at just over 3 years (5 - 6 classes per week for the first 2 years).

What I feel is that the are of Taekwondo actually starts at 1st dan. We are taught that a blackbelt is like a new born baby :o . Basically you have developed (through your kups or coloured ranks) to a stage where you can do the basic functions of Taekwondo well - Kind of like a new born baby can breath on it's own and cry when it needs to be tended to. You can't coach a baby on how to breath they have mastered it. But what needs to be learned is how to live, how to walk, how to eat, and how to speak. How to interact. So basically as a first dan you know all of your blocks, kicks, punches, basic sparring etc. Now you need to learn style, application, refinement, discipline, patience, and honing of your skill.

It is my believe that Taekwondo is a life long journey :love: . One that should not be taken or started half heartedly as it holds the power of responsibility. Joining for the sake of obtaining a BB should not be the first or only reason that you join. It can be your first goal but don't rush it. Let it come naturally, have faith in your instructors to guide you there and appreciate all that you have accomplished when you receive it. Besides the longer you wait to get it, the sweeter it will be when you finally do! ;)

[seikido]

Anybody know what the WTF guidelines are for this?

[Infesticon #1]

if you're alllowed to grade and pass your grading then you could get your blackbelt in 3.5 years, but most people don't. And does it really matter?

[Yudanja]

This is one of those debates that will NEVER be settled no matter how much it is talked about.

I certainly do not consider anyone who has reached the level of 1st Dan to be an EXPERT or a MASTER of that particular martial-art. In Taekwondo we are taught that the 1st Dan signifies just the beginning of understanding.

I have only tested 3 students to 1st Dan. Most of them were in training for a little over 3 years before that level. To hear some schools that take 7-10 years for a 1st Dan.. especially for a striking art like TKD or Karate to me doesnt seem feesible. But of course 7 years of dues to an instructor does earn him/her more than 3....who is the McDojo/ang again??????

Another point. How many of the arts that we practice today were taught by Masters who had only a dozen or so years of training and proclimed themselves 9th or 10th Dan..or Grandmasters.. whatever term is used.

Chojun Miyagi was still a young man when he mastered Goju... Tatsuo Shimabuku was a young man when he create Isshin-Ryu. All of the Kwans that came together when "Taekwondo" was named were headed by relatively young men called masters.

If i created my own art at 31 I would be laughed at by just about every serious martial-artist out there. Why? Because im not asian? Because I am too young. My 22 years of experience are not enought to formulate my own style ?? It was good enough for the Miyagi and Shimabuku's and the Funakoshi's and the Choi's..etc.

Stop putting people down because they get their 1st Dan in 2 years and not 10. Maybe they ARE being pushed thru and arent really ready...or maybe they are simply BETTER than you! Dont judge a book by its cover people.
Dont be hypocritical.

Sabum Steve Hartsock

[MarioBro]

This is one of those debates that will NEVER be settled no matter how much it is talked about.

I certainly do not consider anyone who has reached the level of 1st Dan to be an EXPERT or a MASTER of that particular martial-art. In Taekwondo we are taught that the 1st Dan signifies just the beginning of understanding.

I have only tested 3 students to 1st Dan. Most of them were in training for a little over 3 years before that level. To hear some schools that take 7-10 years for a 1st Dan.. especially for a striking art like TKD or Karate to me doesnt seem feesible. But of course 7 years of dues to an instructor does earn him/her more than 3....who is the McDojo/ang again??????

Another point. How many of the arts that we practice today were taught by Masters who had only a dozen or so years of training and proclimed themselves 9th or 10th Dan..or Grandmasters.. whatever term is used.

Chojun Miyagi was still a young man when he mastered Goju... Tatsuo Shimabuku was a young man when he create Isshin-Ryu. All of the Kwans that came together when "Taekwondo" was named were headed by relatively young men called masters.

If i created my own art at 31 I would be laughed at by just about every serious martial-artist out there. Why? Because im not asian? Because I am too young. My 22 years of experience are not enought to formulate my own style ?? It was good enough for the Miyagi and Shimabuku's and the Funakoshi's and the Choi's..etc.

Stop putting people down because they get their 1st Dan in 2 years and not 10. Maybe they ARE being pushed thru and arent really ready...or maybe they are simply BETTER than you! Dont judge a book by its cover people.
Dont be hypocritical.

Sabum Steve Hartsock
Thank you for summing up the whole issue so well. Those are exactly my thoughts on the matter.

[Yudanja]

No problem :)

Sabum Steve Hartsock

[Highkick]

Holy crap, consider yourselves lucky! I had to do horrible grunt work to even train there, and it took me nine years to get my black belt. Can you picture a five-year-old carrying paint out of a short asian guy's half-ton truck? That's me right there!

[Yudanja]

Holy crap, consider yourselves lucky! I had to do horrible grunt work to even train there, and it took me nine years to get my black belt. Can you picture a five-year-old carrying paint out of a short asian guy's half-ton truck? That's me right there!
Sounds like yer instructor watched the Karate Kid movie one too many times :) hehehehe

Sabum Steve Hartsock

[Thomas]

If i created my own art at 31 I would be laughed at by just about every serious martial-artist out there. Why? Because im not asian? Because I am too young. My 22 years of experience are not enought to formulate my own style ?? It was good enough for the Miyagi and Shimabuku's and the Funakoshi's and the Choi's..etc.

Heh heh heh... great point and so true.



Stop putting people down because they get their 1st Dan in 2 years and not 10. Maybe they ARE being pushed thru and arent really ready...or maybe they are simply BETTER than you! Dont judge a book by its cover people.
Dont be hypocritical.



Nice!

[Yudanja]

I try :)

I have to watch my words sometimes though...I tend to be blunt.

[gaz shaw]

it took me 3 and a half years and that is as quick as it is possible to get a black belt (at least it is in my style any way)

[little_monkeys]

I know the title probably makes me seem like I want a black belt ASAP, but its quite the opposite. I have been looking for like 2 years for a school where we live now-an hour away from my old school-and they have all been, um, crappy. Well, I finally found a school I like for the most part. They have decent students, not too much messing around, etc. The only thing that I am a little leary of is that they only take about a year and a half to get a black belt (usually) for adults. That seems so fast to me. Now, I saw a couple of their BB's when I was there and they seem pretty good and comparible to the black belts at my old school and he said they move up so fast because he teaches the way they do in Korea. The kids take about twice as long and are taught more of an American way. So am I worried about this for nothing? Oh and I am also a little worried about the fact that they allow child black belts. I was raised to believe that children-at least in 95% of cases-are not mentally ready to be black belts. My 6 year old will be started TKD with me and I really dont want him to become a black belt before he is mentally ready, probably some time in his teen years. But I cant really tell the master that, can I? I dont even know if he will stick with it that long anyway, but it worries me. I really like this school otherwise and it isnt a deal breaker for me.....I dunno what I am rambling on about, lol.

[little_monkeys]

Oh yeah, and how common is it for WTF schools to only teach Taeguk forms? I like my Palgwe forms....

[CKinnerley]

Within the association I'm in our instructor's estimate has always been 3.5 years at the minimum if you pass every grading in a straight sequence, more like 4-4.5 if you fail a couple.

[HwaRang]

Depends upon the training. If they do 2-3 hours a week then you'd generally expect 5 years minimum.
But If it were 6 hours a week then you could accept 1.5 years to black belt (in fact I'd prefer to have a more hardcore training while notching up insignificant pieces of cloth)

[chucks150]

It Has Taken Me 3 Years And 8 Months To Reach My First Black Belt Test. I Should Pass Because I Have All The Material. However As Far As I Am Concerned, This Is Just The Begining Of A Long Journey. At 1st Black You Know All Your Material But It Takes Even Longer To Master It.

[Qdmasta]

A little over 4 years for me which is pretty typical for the club. We don't really have a rigid, set schedule as to when we test students but a rough schedule goes something like this:

-About 1 year to go from White, to Yellow, to Green
-About 1.5 years to go from Green, to Blue, to Red
-About 1.5 years to go from Red to Black.

My instructor also has an age requirement of 15 before he will test a student for black. If you make it to High red and you're not 15, you'll wear the belt until you do. A High-red student not old enough will still have to "test" every time the school has a grading. They just won't get the belt.

[Desumacchi]

If you line up all the 1st Dan's of the world wouldn't you rather be one of the better ones instead of one of the bad ones?

I mean, I'd rather be a good yellow belt than a bad black belt any day. So why rush it? I'm not a black belt myself yet, but when I get to 1st Dan I'm going to be the best 1st Dan in the club/school.

In both the "schools" I attend it takes about 5 years to get to 1st Dan if you never miss a grading. (And it's by no means considered a master degree.)

[torment1979]

It took me a little over three years to get to 1st dan. I was eleven when I became a black belt, now i'm 26 and still slowly working toward my 2nd dan. I was also going to class 4-5 days a week, almost everyday after school. Now i'm lucky if I get there once a week. My school is also a 2 hr drive for me if I can go. Most people in my dojo took about 5 years to get to the same rank. I say it depends on how much you put into your goal, not how much time it takes.

[Xue Fang]

Minimum amount of time to black in our club is 3 years and 6 months. I, however, have missed a couple of gradings. I'm grading for bluebelt in early July and in September I'll have been doing TKD for 2 years... so if it all stays on track, it should take me in total 4 years and 1 or 2 months to get to 1st Dan... - this is because I should reach blackstripe in January 2008, however, since blackbelt gradings are only held in April and October and you must do six months at blackstripe, it means I'll be spending 9 months at blackstripe and thus in total it will have taken me the said 4 years and 1 or 2 months to get to 1st Dan. If I had not missed a grading and the blackbelt grading times were more flexible, and I kept on track by grading every time, it would indeed have taken me 3 years and 6 months.

[xxblackkatxx]

For me, it's going to be exactly 2 years and two months.
Started May 4th, 2004 and my first dan testing is this saturday, the 3rd of june. (woot!)
I train 2-6 days a week for 1-3 hours at a time, plus demo team training and recent black belt training, and then a few hours a week of training at home.
it's been one heck of a road...
that's nowhere near ending :D
-Kat

[Ragnarok2005]

12 months and $1800.

[xxblackkatxx]

12 months and $1800.


Holy crap, that much (and after such a short time!)?!? My testing's $350 USD, and I was ripping mad when I found out!
That's wicked expensive, what does that pay for?
Is that you specifically, or your school in general?
How often do you train?
(You knew these questions were coming :D)

[Ragnarok2005]

Holy crap, that much (and after such a short time!)?!? My testing's $350 USD, and I was ripping mad when I found out!
That's wicked expensive, what does that pay for?
Is that you specifically, or your school in general?
How often do you train?
(You knew these questions were coming :D)

LOL!

And you shoulda known I was joking!

[xxblackkatxx]

LOL!

And you shoulda known I was joking!

:cough:
i knew that...:D :p :rolleyes:
that doesn't mean i don't want my questions answered though (you've got me all curious now, dangit!), you've left a cliffhanger!
and honestly this time! :P :D

[Ragnarok2005]

:cough:
i knew that...:D :p :rolleyes:
that doesn't mean i don't want my questions answered though (you've got me all curious now, dangit!), you've left a cliffhanger!
and honestly this time! :P :D

Honestly, honestly....

That's wicked expensive, what does that pay for?
$1800? Well that's around £1400 I think. That'd get me around 14 cheap weekend holidays to France! :D - Haha. No we don't pay that much. What our training pays for... - A fully furnished Do-Jang with mirrors, mats, punchbags, BOBs, Wavemasters, a sprung floor, air conditioning and an incredible instructor who's trained extensively in the Orient.

How often do you train?
3 times a week TKD and once a week specialist training. Jiu-Jitsu, weapons, knife defence, boxing, pressure points, pattern applications etc. [Although since your ITF. You can discard that last one and pretend I never said it. :D]

I personally train everyday unless I'm really that busy. Which is very rare I can't get in just an hour to have a go on the punch dummy or something.

EDIT: And our blackbelts take an absolute minimum of 3 and a half years. Although that's rare. Most of our blackbelts took 5-10 years.

[kwang gae]

It took me ~6 years to get my first Dan, and there's no testing fee at our school. :D Some BB's have made the journey in 4 years at our school, but that's rare. We also have a very high percentage of 1st Dan's who continue training :), which is also unusual, since many students stop training at that point at other schools that I know.

[Hapuka]

At our club it takes around about 5 to 6 years depending on the person and on how often they grade. I want to try and get my black belt by the time im 20. :Angel:

[Lithanwif]

In our organisation it takes around 4 years to qualify to grade as a first degree.

Now to the point of bad black belts. I have seen some people train whom I thought "wow, how crap are they?" and I asked my previous instructor about it, the answer I got surprised me at the time, but the more I thought about it the more I liked it. You have to remember, I came from a traditional karate background in the eighties, if you couldnt do it, you couldnt grade. But the answer I was given was :

"TKD is not the same for all people, TKD is a path you take. some people have the ability to travel a long way, adn their path is long. Some people are physically unable to manage the same distance and they have a shorter path. It is up the individual and their own progress. TKD is different things to different people"

This seems fair, since to me and a few of my contemporaries we see TKD as a controlled way to get in and mix it up, and thats the way we like it. And we have some who enjoy the fitness aspect, and some who enjoy the art aspect with Poomse. ( I actually enjoy forms more now than I did 20 years ago ). I see kids doing flying high kicks 10 feet off the ground. Should they get a black belt and not me because I cant? I see every grade as one more stopping point along my path.

Of course, dropping the phylosophy, sometimes its just nice to bounce other red belts and know you worked harder for it in the dojang right?

[Visage]

You can get your Black Belt in 2 to 3 years. But to actually be worthy of it, I feel takes a lot longer.

Well, thats what I felt... Nowadays, I don't really care much for belts or grading systems.

[JimmyD]

Our school takes about 2 1/2 years for 1st Dan. But I think we also look at black belts differently than some I've read on here do. Black belt is the beginning not the pinnacle. I liken it to climbing out of a well, when you reach the top after working your butt off to get there that is when the real work begins. At black belt you start learning the advanced things, you've worked for 2.5 years on the basics and now you get to taste the more advanced TKD. Then after that its 2 years for 2nd, then 3 more for 3rd and so on, until you hit 4th. Then you have to be selected to test for 5th. Not many selected, I think only school owners.

[TKDQ]

It takes us about 3/4 years to get our Black Belt, my instructor said to me once you have reached BB, that is the basics done with, then you go on to learn the real stuff!!

[TheMadhoose]

It takes us about 3/4 years to get our Black Belt, my instructor said to me once you have reached BB, that is the basics done with, then you go on to learn the real stuff!!

LOL i can remeber an instructor of mine saying well done to all the new 1st dans you have learnt all the basics now its time to learn how to use them properly.

And a speach about colour belts are like apprentices when they become black belts they then begin to learn how to pefect their trade.

Anyway its not how long the path to black belt is thats important its how good that path is.(takes of philosophy hat)

[Keikai-Tsutsumi]

I have just come across this thread and have had an interesting time reading of the times to gain black. Many systems obviously have a a different time limit but all seam to be a lot less than ten years.

The quickest anyone got black in our school was 7 years and the AVERAGE wa arounf 12 years. junior black belts are simply not possible, there is just too much to learn. Personally I took 16 years to 1st dan and I was not the slowest by any means. The requirements were, and still are, complex and demanding and our sensei, Jan de Jong, wanted the best from his students. He considered the more black belts a school had the more he questioned their ability. Quality was his desire.

I, and the few others who completed the system took anywhere between 20 to 30 odd years. 1st dan is considered to be a master and believe me you earned that recognition.

4th dan can ony be awarded after you turn 35 and most of the dans after that can only be awarded every 5 years or so. 9th dan is 60 years and 10th is 70 years of age. You also have to contribute to the school and to martial arts as a whole.

I must confess that I prefer the harder system and would like to see others become more demanding in their requirements for 1st dan. This is entirely a personal opinion but I honestly feel that perhaps the 1st black grading should reflect a masters level of competence.

[neryo_tkd]

Keikai, i checked your profile and saw that you train JJ. so you were talking about JJ not TKD right? you have to emphasize it because this is after all the TKD forum :)

[MaverickZ]

Between 1 and 2 weeks, longer if it's an international order.

wait.. did someone already make that joke?

[kickint70]

I have just come across this thread and have had an interesting time reading of the times to gain black. Many systems obviously have a a different time limit but all seam to be a lot less than ten years.

The quickest anyone got black in our school was 7 years and the AVERAGE wa arounf 12 years. junior black belts are simply not possible, there is just too much to learn. Personally I took 16 years to 1st dan and I was not the slowest by any means. The requirements were, and still are, complex and demanding and our sensei, Jan de Jong, wanted the best from his students. He considered the more black belts a school had the more he questioned their ability. Quality was his desire.

I, and the few others who completed the system took anywhere between 20 to 30 odd years. 1st dan is considered to be a master and believe me you earned that recognition.

4th dan can ony be awarded after you turn 35 and most of the dans after that can only be awarded every 5 years or so. 9th dan is 60 years and 10th is 70 years of age. You also have to contribute to the school and to martial arts as a whole.

I must confess that I prefer the harder system and would like to see others become more demanding in their requirements for 1st dan. This is entirely a personal opinion but I honestly feel that perhaps the 1st black grading should reflect a masters level of competence.

Again, it has been said before on this and other similar threads, it's the practitioner and his system that is important. My personal belief is that achieving your 1st Dan is a new beginning, not an end. System mastery at 1st Dan is fine for you and your system, but for me, my 1st Dan means I have mastered the basics, not the whole system.

For me, it took almost 3 years to get here and is just another colored belt for my instructor to visually identify where I need to line up. The skills and achievements are in the student and instructor, not the belts.

Just my .02.. :D

[aaron_mag]

I think part of the problem is that in Japan and Korea, students can receive their first dan usually in 18 months. Over there, 1st dan really is not as big a deal as it is taken elsewhere. To a large extent, when the first generation of instructors went abroad, especially those trained in the military returning home, many (if not most) were 1st or 2nd dans. When they promoted these "new" arts in their native countries, their status as black belts were perceived and often promoted as experts.

To compound the problem, back in the 50's-early 80's, most schools had their brown or red belts as very tough, high level athletes and fighters. To reach black, you truly were a step above with many of these schools. Starting in the '80's, there was a watering down of standards in Asia due to the widespread inclusion of these arts in the regular education system. Also, in the USA and later Europe and Australia, you saw a shift in emphasis form effectiveness to effort.

In part, I agree that in many ways that this was a good thing to change from an elimination process to a growth one. It helped many students truly reach a high level by encouragement and support rather than driving them away. However, both factors have been exploited by those who wanted to water down the standards for economic gain. The attitude of "well, at least they come to class...(or at least pay their tuition), and "it takes this long in Japan/Korea/Fill in the blank"; can justify this to some.



This is a very intelligent post and so true. I've seen many blackbelts from Asia and their quality if often very poor. I worked out with my friend and fellow instructor last night and he had an exchange student in his class from China. I was trying to help him out because I thought he was a guy with no experience. I found out later he is a black belt! He had difficulty breaking one plastic board! (note we use the old style plastic boards that are very stiff).

The question of belt rank has always plagued me and bothered me. There seems to be no way to come up with a perfect system. In our organization it is typically 4 years to blackbelt for a student who comes consistently. Note that consistency is the key. If you're consistent you typically advance. We don't punish those who are not athletic and neither do we reward those who are.

Is this right? Shouldn't it be based on fighting ability? I don't know. You get students in so many shapes and sizes.

For kids it typically takes longer (five to six years). We don't even let them start testing until 7 so those students who stick with it can usually get their blackbelt by 12 to 13. It takes an additional 2 years to get to 2nd dan and then they are done until they graduate highschool We won't allow them to progress any further until they are older. Is this right? Isn't this age discrimination? Maybe. But we feel it is important that the higher ranks have some sort of age and life experience to them.

After black belt we use a ladder approach: 2 years to 2nd, 3 additional years to 3rd, 4 additional years to 4th, 5 additional years to 5th, etc.

And again the key is consistency. I started at 10 and I'm 35 now, but I'm only a 4th dan? Why is that? Because I played sports in high school and college and had some injuries that kept me from progressing.

But not all schools in our organization are as strict. I have people who were lower rank than me a few dans ago who now outrank me. And I'm a pretty darn good tournament fighter and some of them are not. Is this fair?

Again I don't know. I just try to remember that it isn't a perfect system and the belt is there to keep your dobak in place. I just want to keep training and enjoying myself...

[Daywalker]

Why would this ever be a question of time? In public education there has always been a debate over whether time served in a classroom is enough to promote a student to the next grade. The fact is, there is a curriculum and there are some who will master it faster than others. For those people who are blessed with physical skills and coordination as well as mental maturity; I see no reason to delay providing an appropriate rank.

My only concern is when students fail to meet the basic requirements of the curriculum. If the student is unable to perform, then the student should not progress, regardless of the time spent.

I do not understand the badge of pride some people wear when they state that it took them years and years and years to become a black belt. I imagine one can study for 10 years and still not be as skilled as others who have studied for much less time.

In short, there should be a set of standards that establish a baseline of skills. Those who have met these move on -- those that don't practice until they do.

[FredQ]

4-5 years depending on the person.


Fred

[tkdmusclerock]

In my school it takes 3 1/2 years of uninterrupted training to earn a black belt. I tell our students that a first-degree black belt is analogous to a high school diploma. A first dan should have a firm grasp of the fundamentals of our master's teachings.

Many of the students at our dojang regard the black belt as a finish line, an accomplishment which, when completed, is discontinued. I understand that feeling; martial arts students aren't necessarily martial artists. For me, I love this stuff, and I will continue as a student/teacher/artist as long as my body allows. I am a black belt. It's not what I do; it's who I am.

[29622]

It took me about 4 years passing every test and not missing a single one.

[tkdkyle]

At the dojang I go to it takes a minimum of 3 years.

[AmberLB]

At our school, I would say the minimum time to 1st dan is about 3 years. However, not very many people test every time, and most students train 6 days a week. There are mimimum hour and time-in-grade requirements. Our family does a minimum of 8-10 classes a week, including 4 black-belt only classes. We have a 1st dan grading coming up, my husband is testing. We don't have a minimum age for 1st dan, but we do for 2nd dan. My oldest son is a 1st dan, but he'll have to wait six more years to test for his 2nd.

For students at our school, the black belt is seen as a beginning, and the separate black belt curriculum is designed to constantly push and challenge students and instructors. The more we progress, the more we are able to see what we need to work on and continue to strive for.

[Keikai-Tsutsumi]

Keikai, i checked your profile and saw that you train JJ. so you were talking about JJ not TKD right? you have to emphasize it because this is after all the TKD forum :)


Sorry.

I simply answered the question on how long it takes to get a black belt. Different schools, different styles and different arts are all different was my point.

Greg Palmer

[neryo_tkd]

i agree. and i would add 'different people' to the list.

[Sho_Stylin]

3 years 6 months when with TAGB

[carlos]

It took me 4 & 1/2 years training on average 2 hours per week. More in the immediate lead up to gradings and the hours spent on the theory at home/work/wherever.

[SheathedSword]

I never took TKD and have always stayed away because I feel the ranking system gives false hope. Any school that will give you a black belt in 3 years or less is not one I would join. I started my training in American Combat Karate and to get a black belt it took a good student 7 - 10 years. How could you possibly compare a black belt with 3 years of training vs a black belt of 7 + years of training. The answer is you can't. The black belt students at my old school were untouchable even as I climbed up in rank. I took AKC for almost 5 years and was only a little more then half way to black. Sadly many schools hand out belts to keep their students interested so they continue to pay.

[TKDjoe]

False hope for what? :confused: untouchable? :rolleyes:

[carlos]

I never took TKD and have always stayed away because I feel the ranking system gives false hope. Any school that will give you a black belt in 3 years or less is not one I would join. I started my training in American Combat Karate and to get a black belt it took a good student 7 - 10 years. How could you possibly compare a black belt with 3 years of training vs a black belt of 7 + years of training. The answer is you can't. The black belt students at my old school were untouchable even as I climbed up in rank. I took AKC for almost 5 years and was only a little more then half way to black. Sadly many schools hand out belts to keep their students interested so they continue to pay.

Firstly, take off your rose tinted spectacles.

Secondly, recognise the point of the thread. It is not to say that black belt a is better than black belt b purely based the amout of time taken to get there. That is an entirely objective view, given differing bodystyles and ability.

The point of the thread is to ascertain time taken of non-mcdojang members to reach 1st degree.

[neryo_tkd]

I never took TKD and have always stayed away because I feel the ranking system gives false hope.


now you're generalising and that's a sign of not being open minded.

so, if we follow your way of thinking, we could say that the schools of your martial art don't give black belts to students unless they train 7-10 years, in other words they want to ensure the money income for years and years.

[MaverickZ]

I never took TKD and have always stayed away because I feel the ranking system gives false hope. Any school that will give you a black belt in 3 years or less is not one I would join. I started my training in American Combat Karate and to get a black belt it took a good student 7 - 10 years. How could you possibly compare a black belt with 3 years of training vs a black belt of 7 + years of training. The answer is you can't. The black belt students at my old school were untouchable even as I climbed up in rank. I took AKC for almost 5 years and was only a little more then half way to black. Sadly many schools hand out belts to keep their students interested so they continue to pay.

American Combat Karate?
http://www.safetytechnology.com/comstock.htm

[Ninja01]

It takes about three years at my school. You test every three months, of course that depends on whether the person is actually ready or not. Once you get to red belt its five months, then the black tip, then another five months untill your black belt. They won't let you test for black belt unless you are positively ready.

I don't think three years is too short, your 'real' training doesn't start untill you become a black belt. Thats how I was taught. And I agree.

[StuartA]

Going by the time lines at our school, in theory it could take 3.5 years. As grading times are just minimums and standards and skill and the ability to 'hang' with fellow grades are also taken into account, its more likely 4 to5/6 years.

In fact the first studnets to take thier black belts took ariound 6 years: http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/REPORTS_Dan_Grading_March06.html

Stuart

[kenpoist]

It took me less than 2 years, due to having prior experience (started at the purple belt level ). I still had to go back and learn all the beginner techniques and forms. I had a good foundation in the another art, which allowed me to accelerate at a faster pace (strong stances, crisp kicks and punches etc...) I don't feel there should be a set time frame. Many schools give you a belt every 3 months regardless of whether or not you can actually defend yourself (going through the motions). Maybe there should be other way's of testing people.
If a person is a black belt - they should look like they know what they are doing. When you are looking at a new school, look at the black belt's and watch how they move - this might help in one's decision to join that particular school and be a postive reflection on the instructor.

[StuartA]

It took me less than 2 years, due to having prior experience
Prior experence can often mean a quicker learning process (if you have studied at a decent shool before) and is a different thing from white to black belt from scratch.

Many schools give you a belt every 3 months regardless of whether or not you can actually defend yourself (going through the motions). Maybe there should be other way's of testing people.
There is... the first is for the examiners to show some integrity and the second it to make sure the gradee actually knows what they are doing, as opposed to looking like they do!

If a person is a black belt - they should look like they know what they are doing.
Sorry, but I feel they should know what they are doing, not just look like it!

Stuart

[estranged13]

http://www.centuryfitness.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10051&storeId=10051&productId=65153&langId=-1&product_parentId=13929&crumb=13501&categoryId=13929&parent_category_rn=13920

takes about 4 days

[MaverickZ]

Between 1 and 2 weeks, longer if it's an international order.

wait.. did someone already make that joke?
http://www.centuryfitness.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10051&storeId=10051&productId=65153&langId=-1&product_parentId=13929&crumb=13501&categoryId=13929&parent_category_rn=13920

takes about 4 days

don't be like carlos mencia, just don't.

[zoltan]

That fast! My school it takes about 7 years if your good enough!
My school is about the same 7 years. For 2 years? Thats an awful lot of belts to go through in 2 years. Let alone 4 years. As you get higher in belts it should take longer to test. The money grab is to much to pass up i guess for some places.

[StuartA]

We just held another dan grading and the same again in years for the student that past.. around 6!

Full report here (http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/Photos/Dan_Sept06/REPORTS_Dan_Grading_Sept06.html)

Stuart

[Ragnarok2005]

We just held another dan grading and the same again in years for the student that past.. around 6!

Full report here (http://www.raynerslanetkd.com/Photos/Dan_Sept06/REPORTS_Dan_Grading_Sept06.html)

Stuart

As soon as I read that sentence I knew that Colin would have passed. He won't even know me but, whatever. His twisting kicks bloody hurt! :D - Many congratulations Mr. Anslow.

[StuartA]

As soon as I read that sentence I knew that Colin would have passed. He won't even know me but, whatever. His twisting kicks bloody hurt! :D - Many congratulations Mr. Anslow.

Im sure hell remember the the physco TKD student with girlie hair :p

Ill pass the congrats on to him, thanks Rags.


Stuart

[Mixitup]

Stuart, do you ever take seminars outside of the smoke?

[StuartA]

Stuart, do you ever take seminars outside of the smoke?

Take as in attend? Yes
Take as in give? Yes (done one in the USA last year)

Smoke as in "Big Smoke" AKA London or burning fire!!

Why do you ask?


Stuart

[Leo_E_49]

Took me 9 years to get my 1st Dan, but I was a slow learner. I must admit that the average at my Dojang was 7 years.

[G50]

At the school I'm at now it usually takes 2 1/2 - 3 years (minimum). It only took me 1 1/2 years since I came from another school. (I started at red belt)

[Cloud9]

Answer: It depends. :)

Too many variables to really say. I originally began my MA in Shorin ryu back in the early '80s. I found the whole belt discussion somewhat frustrating (I was in my mid-late teens at the time).

Not having had prior experience in the martial arts at the time, I thought it was all about skill. As a brand new white belt with no prior formal training, there wasn't anyone in the class that I couldn't 'take out', so at the time, my thinking was - if I can take out a yellow, green, brown, etc. then I'm Y/G/B material. LOL

Looking back on it is funny, but I remember having this discussion with my sensei. At one point asking him if Bruce Lee joined our class what belt would he be? To which my sensei responded, "White of course, though I'm sure he'd advance somewhat quicker than others with no training".

I have noticed that over the years the requirements to advance have become easier, and belts come quicker even in good dojos. Now if you show up and do the training, you're pretty much assured that you'll get your BB in 3-5 to 10yrs.

I can't imagine my old sensei giving out BBs at that pace. For him it was about finding a diamond in the rough and polishing it to attain BB. In his view, no more than 10-20% of students that regularly attended, and trained hard, would ever attain BB status, but I guess those schools don't last.

I have noticed in the previous responses, and at my school, that there seems to be a strong aversion to white belt. One of the students in our school came from another school and she simply did not want to wear a white belt again.

I'm not sure I understand that. If you go from one style to another, surely you don't know anything about the style you're learning so why not start at white belt?

Interestingly, this whole belt discussion did impact the way I thought about belts, so much so that I left Shorin ryu training and took up Wing Chun. There were no belts to 'test' for.

I just started up MA again at 42 (after a 10yr lapse) in two styles, Wing Chun and MMA. In WC again, there are no belts. The issue exists only with the MMA classes, and it is interesting to watch.

I wondered why some students just seemed to be marking time, not putting a lot of emphasis in their techniques. I asked them why, and they said it didn't matter how much effort they put in since they just got their orange belts and wouldn't be due to test for the next belt for a while.

So on the one hand, you don't want to promote without merit, but on the other, you also don't want students simply marking time.

Corporate America has largely done away with a seniority (time) based system and replaced it with a pay for performance (merit) system. Though not perfect by any means, I wonder if the MAs can ever find the right balance to please the majority of practitioners out there.

[TraditionalTKD]

How long does it take to make black belt? As long as your Instructor says it does. Having said that, there should be an acceptable middle ground based on how long it should realitically take for a student to achieve what a 1st Dan represents.
Assuming you train 2-3 times a week, 1st Dan should be attainable within 2-3 years. One or two years is not long enough to allow you time to properly practice and absorb all you need to know. Seven to ten years is FAR too long. Remember, we're not talking mastery of a huge amount of technique, were talking thorough grounding in the basics of Tae Kwon Do.

[franksv]

The dojang I was at,it was an average of 3 years.I took my time and got mine in 5.That was 5 years ago now,man how time flys.

[ronaldk]

in my case, there is a huge McDojo duality complex going on.

i'm in a school which is part of the biggest TKD club in the city. but i've seen students from the main school, and they are pretty pathetic. i have one aprticular friend that got all the way to a blue belt, and once, when a streetfight broke and and 3 of his friends were getting pummelled, he did not get in. when i asked him, he said all he ever really got from his training was form and theory, but he didn't have any confidence in whatever little fighting technique he got.

my master is one of the newer instructors in the club, and is waayyy tougher in comparison. in my first sparring match with one of the students from the other school, i handled him with a lot of ease, when i was a yellow belt and he was an orange belt. my classmate stood up quite well (even though he did lose) to a blue belt while he was just orange.

so, the club requires a minimum of 3 months per color belt grading, and i've never heard of anyone 'failing' it. however, few reach an A score. they also double-promote you for a score over 95.basically, if you do not get double promoted at any time, it takes you 2 years to get to red. after that, it's a min. of 5 months to qualify for a blackbelt test.

on our white belt exam, i scored a 93 and my friend a 96, which sent him to orange and me to yellow. on the 2nd one, i managed a 96 while my friend got a 94, which has us both now on green.

we are required to know everything from past belts (they test us all colors at once, progressively making the lower belts step out) including:
- kicks
- blocks
- forms
- air kicks
- kick/punch combinations (memorized by number)
- hapkido self-defense techniques
- sparring
- TKD theory (some history, some korean, etc)

i must admit, i keep wanting to learn new things, and start getting a little bored right before grading. i dunno how it is in other places, but we get taught certain kicks/techniques as we progress up the belts. ie. mondolio chagi (hook kick) i was just taught last week, as part of my first green belt training session.

basically, my master's students are the best fighters, have the best form and technique, and progress quicker, but in reality, the club is quite McDojoish. we have this red belt kid who transferred to our school from the main one, who doesn't know the kicho forms... as opposed to my master's son, who is 11, started TKD at age 2, is also a red belt, and serves already as an assistant instructor and knows some of the blackbelt and 1st dan forms just from watching them.

sorry for the long post.

[Deaths Angel]

in my club(tae kwon do)the blackbelts got them after around 6-7 years. to me this is in my opinion an acceptible time to recieve a blackbellt.
i find this part hard to explain so bear with me...
my club is small with 3 blackbelts.... with whom i have zero respect for!! they are weak phisically and mentally..eg. dropping out of the warm up!!, not taking part in drills or sparring like a toddler, i may be naive but i thought a blackbelt was a figure of respect whose actions, manor and conduct were there to set an example for lower ranking belts like myself,(i also train in mma so belts dont instill respect into me unless it is earnt,,ie just cos your higher than me dont mean a thing ill fight you,im not a blind one style orientated begginner),eg 'this is what im training to be like'..
ive been there 4 years, im blue belt(itf) ive missed 2 gradings by choice as i dont think im ready.so from my own experience a black belt can be gained in minimum time i could see a 3 year blackbelt easy, but just remember a belt means nothing to a real fighter......
i do not mean any disrespect to blackbelts, true blackbelts im sure will agree and the fake mc dojo bbs will get defensive heh heh i love the martial art world! :).on a contraverstial point belts are meaning less and less, actions define the artist/practitioner.

[tomcatuk]

I'm not aware of any of the Dans at my club that got them in anything less than 5 years - I'm amazed so many people think two years is feasible although obviously it's fairly widespread here in the UK for people to reach that level pretty quickly. The easy way to spot it is at tournaments - green belts from my club regularly beat black belts in junior and adult categories.

Persoanally, I don't place as much importance on the belt. I'm in it for fitness above all else. I know when my instructor passes me at a grading there is no doubt as to whether I deserve that belt. I'd like to be able to say the same for the local Karate club that gets kids to black belt in less than two years, but all they are doing is manipulating the students to get as many grading fees as possible, and doing the students a diservice by giving them the impression that they are invincible fighting machines which could very easily get them seriously hurt on the street. A good martial artist doesn't brag about his rank in the club, and certainly shouldn't be discussing it outside the club with people unconnected with TKD without good reason.

Etiquette, Modesty, Perseverance, Self Control and Indomitable Spirit

[Tetsujin]

well..it's true that you can become a black belt with in 2 years.. ( maybe less depending on your performance )..but yes some who do become a black belt in 2 years do lack in respect if not discipline..anyway..it really depends on how your instructor or senior thought you..and it also depends how good your skills are..in a real dojang..the main teachings are respect and discipline..guess he didnt go to real one..


Humankind cannot gain anything without giving something in return..to obtain something of equal value must be lost..that is the 1st rule of alchemy..in those I believed that to be the worlds one and only rule

- Edward Elric

[KurtCobain2902]

Bas Rutten got his in a year, but he was trained in other things before that I believe.


There's a TKD school literally a block from my house, and the people teach there and live there. I think he does private lessons but I'm not sure at all. My friend said he saw the guy out there smoking a cigarette, so I don't know if I want to go now. I was thinking about going and asking if I could pay him for lessons on techniques and forget about Katas and belts.

[Mixitup]

Take as in attend? Yes
Take as in give? Yes (done one in the USA last year)

Smoke as in "Big Smoke" AKA London or burning fire!!

Why do you ask?


Stuart

I'd like my son to attend one (or more) of your lessons. I like your book, and your interpretation of TKD but as we live in North Wales it's a bit far to attend.

[Pickles107]

It usually depends on where you go. Some schools, like you said, take about a year for their black belt...which, personally, i don't think is good because you have no experience and technically, a green belt in another school that's been testing for a year could beat a black belt that's been taking it for a year. It also depends on how often you go. For example, if you attend you class only twice a year...obviously that's not enough to even test for a higher belt nor is it enough practice. So it depends on how often you go and where you go. But basically, if you attend class regularly...it usually and most of the time takes about 6-7 years to get your black belt. I can't imagine any school taking any shorter than that.

[Pickles107]

It usually depends on where you go. Some schools, like you said, take about a year for their black belt...which, personally, i don't think is good because you have no experience and technically, a green belt in another school that's been testing for a year could beat a black belt that's been taking it for a year. It also depends on how often you go. For example, if you attend you class only twice a year...obviously that's not enough to even test for a higher belt nor is it enough practice. So it depends on how often you go and where you go. But basically, if you attend class regularly...it usually and most of the time takes about 6-7 years to get your black belt. I can't imagine any school taking any shorter than that.

[red-tkd]

But basically, if you attend class regularly...it usually and most of the time takes about 6-7 years to get your black belt.

have to agree on that, if you'd take every possible grading it takes you at least 5 1/2 years at our school to become blackbelt.
Hearing that at some schools it only takes you 1.5 years left me a little bit shocked :eek:

[loobylootagbx]

1 n half years im shocked!!
it took me 2 and half but that was because i quit when i was nine and went back when i was 16!! so realllyy its taken me years haha i just achieved myne got awarded with it Tonight at trianing yeeeeeeeeeeeee :)

[Knives101]

It takes about 2 1/2 years at most places in my area. They've turned what used to be High Red into "Temporary Black" just so they can say that they give BB's after 2 1/2 years.

I used to have a Red Belt with three black tags on the side after about 2 1/2 years. I had a year and a half to go until BB. As a green-blue belt I didn't even think about Blackbelt yet because I had so long to go. I just studied TKD for fun. By the time I got to Red Belt I had spent so much time doing TKD that I knew what parts of my technique I needed to fix. I was good, but I knew I could get better, because of the time I had to reflect.

Nowadays people get a Blackbelt after such a short time that they hardly have time to get any good. I retook TKD up to Blue Belt and then quit a few months back. Even for a guy who had done TKD before, I felt Blackbelt rushing up on me too fast. A lot of the newer Blackbelts at my school still had a ton of learning to do. Most of them couldn't even perform a proper sidekick. They always did a sidekick that was more like a roundhouse with the heel. They didn't understand that a sidekick is supposed to be an outward thrust. The really sad thing is that once most of these guys got their "Temp BB" they just stopped training altogether.

I really think a good BB should have to spend four years of training before getting their belt. If you hand them a belt after 2 1/2 years they never reach their full potential. And hearing four years for a BB usually discourages anyone that just wants to buy a belt. IMO a Blackbelt means you're in it for the long haul. Anyone that just quits after getting their BB just doesn't deserve one in the first place.

[neryo_tkd]

i'm also of the opinion that it might be too soon for the majority or some, let's put it that way.

so when your mates get the temp BB, do they actually start wearing the BB or they have to grade soon again?

[Desumacchi]

... In our organization it is typically 4 years to blackbelt for a student who comes consistently. Note that consistency is the key. If you're consistent you typically advance. We don't punish those who are not athletic and neither do we reward those who are.

Is this right? Shouldn't it be based on fighting ability? I don't know. You get students in so many shapes and sizes. ...
This here is what I personally find to be the weak spot of many martial arts with belt rankings.

Look at Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. I find it very hard to believe anyone would ever advance in rank simply based on their attendance record.

It's martial arts for god's sake! If a martial art doesn't reward those who are better than the rest then what the hell is the incentive for training hard and doing your best?

Not being allowed to grade and step up in rank is not punishment, it's just a lack of reward. You simply don't reward those who hasn't achieved anything, that's common sense. Punishment would be to remove their already achieved grade/degree.

[X-caliber]

at my school we have this really cool class (that you pay extra for :bang: ) called the jr. black belt club and they have special classes that focus on what it takes to be a black belt ( only open to Green belts and up). and then they also have other clubs such as the the black belt club witch also gives you special training to become an instructor and then there is master training witch is wierd and i dont know what it is so here il copy and paist from the web site::::
Special classes every week for members

Meditation Training

Weapon Training - Short Stick, and Long Stick

Inner Power Control Skills for Advanced Breaking

2 or 3 kicks in the air

Learn to attack Human Weakest Vital Point – Traditional TKD Training

Grappling Self-defense Skills

Leadership Skills – Skills to teach TKD age 4 to 80

Only MASTERS Club members will wear special Instructor uniforms signifying their extra commitment.




ya so my school can really push you hard to get what you want and to basicly master Tae Kwon Do

---X---

[Artikon]

Ya so basically a whole bunch of useless tripe that you can pay extra for.

Personally I'm not big on the schools that offer "specialty classes" in order to get "customers" to pay extra for "special" training. Especially a class that is only offered once a week.

Want to master TKD, practice the basics until you puke. Want to become a teacher/instructor, take a phys-ed course.

Money makes the world go round.

Again, little caustic but getting a little cranky with stuff like this especially when real educators/coaches and talented taekwondoin work so hard and all it really takes is an additional class a week to be a master.

[footloose]

I have trained in Judo as a little kid, some shotokan in middle school before switching to TKD, and have a total of about, 8 - 10 years training scattered over many years. My most consistent period was during college, for about 3 years, and fairly recently, about 3 years.

My first TKD school in Miami was run non-profit, above a cuban grocery, about 20 bucks a month dues, with the students doing everything from cleanup to building repairs. Senior blackbelts taught some classes as usual. Average time to black belt there - 4 years. However, no kids under 16 unless prodigal.

When I went off to college, I stopped to check out the local dojang and they told me: you? one year max., no problem! I hauled butt outta there and never went back!

Where I live now, my school pushes belts pretty hard, but not to the point of being ridiculous. Some kids have received thier BB's in a couple of years.

Because of my jumping around a lot, I'm still a black belt candidate, just shy of first dan. (I held off on my own cause I was sick and my head wasn't clear at testing time). After a couple of years off after the arrival of our child and limited time availabilty for all my special interests, I'm fired up and ready to get back into it.

My general opinion is that a black belt signifies an student with a good grasp of the basics. You need to be in fairly decent physical shape, able to have crisp clean movements, your forms need to flow, you should have tossed aside all of your early kick-butt juv. attitudes, and have progressed to a point where you are capable of receiving more advanced instruction. Remember that we are all students until the day we die, whether white belts or grand masters. As in life, the more you know, you realize the less you know.

It is embarassing for a school to have their black belt students falling down from lack of balance, stumbling in forms, or lacking good manners or sportsmanship. It is the responsibility of the school to develop good martial arts students and good human beings, not just black belts.

My .02

[X-caliber]

Ya so basically a whole bunch of useless tripe that you can pay extra for.

Personally I'm not big on the schools that offer "specialty classes" in order to get "customers" to pay extra for "special" training. Especially a class that is only offered once a week.

Want to master TKD, practice the basics until you puke. Want to become a teacher/instructor, take a phys-ed course.

Money makes the world go round.

Again, little caustic but getting a little cranky with stuff like this especially when real educators/coaches and talented taekwondoin work so hard and all it really takes is an additional class a week to be a master.

well ya of course but in these classes they teach like Demo stuff i think or somthing like that i dont really know. ill get back to you on that

[kevin82abn]

Although; this kid that you speak of had a total lack of respect and the fact that he was a bully attacking little girls, the traits of a true coward with a total lack of discipline. Keep in mind that in the sixties there were only four belt ranks white, green, brown, and black. One of the worlds greatest martial Artists of last century earned his black belt in a blazing nine months...Bill "Superfoot" Wallace, undefeated PKA middle weight champion of the world. Joe Lewis also earned his Blackbelt very quickly and became the Heavyweight champion of the world seven times in a row holding that title for both Kickboxing and Karate at the same time. I guess it comes down to how much effort and drive the student possesses.
-Kevin82abn

[Thomas]

posted in worng topic - still sleepy. :eek:

[Kaizen-th3]

at our school about 3-5 years depending on how often you train and ability to pick things up

i should mention our classes are longer (90-120 min) and can be pretty intense

[Alex O]

I was 6 years training 4 times a week for two hours a class :bang: A year and a half? B####y he1l.

P.S. that was in an ITF organisation where the average was about seven years and I was 12 when I started and in order to go for my BB I had to take part in a three day seminar and 10 hour grading.

[vindawg11 19]

It takes 3 years on average. Most people get them around there, or maybe in a few months less. But this is through taking classes regularly (perhaps 3 times a week?). In my school, it takes everybody about 3 years. And my master slows people down if they are learning and going to fast. So even if you do go every single day and work hard and such, you have to actually sort of put in a specific time into Tae Kwon Do to achieve the blackbelt. So.. shortest may be 2.5 years? But on most people get it at 3.

[papercut]

at my school it takes about 2 years to 2 and a half years but we have training 6 days a week but I guess it ranges from school to school

[Artikon]

And my master slows people down if they are learning and going to fast.
I don't agree with this. Why hold someone back when they are showing they are more than capable of taking the material, learning the material, retaining the material, and excelling at the material?

[neryo_tkd]

yeah, every now or then, you get a very talented student.

[TKDTraditional]

How about a variation on this question? How long does it take to promote after 1st dan?
I've heard it's easy to make Black Belt in Judo but they slow you waaay down after than. I've also heard that it's hard to make Black Belt in Karate/TaeKwon-Do (pre McDojo days) but it's relatively easy to get higher rank. Aikido is hard to make Black (5 years?) and just as hard afterwards.

In my school, it took about 3-1/2 to 4 years for an adult to make 1st dan. Then typically 4-5 years for each rank thereafter. One thing that I think is interesting--given each Black Belt learns 3 new patterns for his next promotion (ITF)--you learn one new pattern after promoting, which you practice for a year, then the second, and so on. After 2 years, you've learned all 3, which you practice for at least 2 more years. The emphasis is perfecting patterns--as well as techniques--so there's no rushing through it. A side effect of this is that learning a new pattern is like a mini-promotion since you line up by rank and which pattern you're working on.

Comments?

[neryo_tkd]

I've heard it's easy to make Black Belt in Judo but they slow you waaay down after than. I've also heard that it's hard to make Black Belt in Karate/TaeKwon-Do (pre McDojo days) but it's relatively easy to get higher rank.


you heard.... exactly...don't take it for granted. the situation isn't the same everywhere.

here in tkd it's not easy to get the black belt neither are dan levels.

[Artikon]

How about a variation on this question? How long does it take to promote after 1st dan?
Depends on how long it takes for the cheque to clear :D :D
Someone had to say it.

Again from my perspective it again depends on the base curriculum provided by the governing body, and how the individual school applies this to their curriculum and their own guidelines in terms of technical proficiency and understanding. With no real regulations in place this question is tough to answer.

Kukkiwon has time requirements and pattern requirements, that is about it. It took me about 5 minutes to learn keumgang, getting good at it took a little longer. Does this mean I'm ready for the next dan ranking?

Individual schools are able to basically do what they want, which is essentially where my first statement in this post came from. Lack of regulations from the top allows for schools to do this. My opinion . . . major problem.

Just as a side note from this post, majority of people on here would probably be shocked/surprised/disgusted how much time I've spent doing TKD, and where I rank. Time is not always indicative of understanding/proficiency and in my opinion should not really be used as a measuring stick to determine when it is time to test, be it longer or a shorter time for a particular individual.

Meh . . . what do I know :D

[taekwon-dork]

here in tkd it's not easy to get the black belt neither are dan levels.

I take it the TKD in bold is meant to represent your club/associate? Man I hope you aren't making a generalization on this one cause I can find you a dozen clubs (all in good standing with their respective organizations) that promote BBs about as regularly as some of us change our underwear. Dang, I can think of a club off the top of my head that promises if you sign up now you can have a BB in two years.....

TK-Dork

PS - Artikon, I hear you. Man its funny when people realize how long I've been kicking around the gym and somehow avoiding any stripes on my BB.

[Artikon]

tk-dork: Ditto. I actually refuse to show what rank I actually am the majority of the time. Even here there are only a handful who actually know it, via very early postings from me, or PMs.

I actually like to keep people guessing :D Still working on Taegeuk il-jang though.

[taekwon-dork]

tk-dork: Ditto. I actually refuse to show what rank I actually am the majority of the time. Even here there are only a handful who actually know it, via very early postings from me, or PMs.

I actually like to keep people guessing :D Still working on Taegeuk il-jang though.

I still haven't embroidered my name on my belt.....

[neryo_tkd]

I take it the TKD in bold is meant to represent your club/associate? Man I hope you aren't making a generalization on this one cause I can find you a dozen clubs (all in good standing with their respective organizations) that promote BBs about as regularly as some of us change our underwear.


first of all, i'm not a man.

second of all, i did write ''here'', meaning in my area, so i really don't where you came up with that generalising stuff :confused:

[ray8285]

It took me about 2 1/2 years in TKD. But, I trained for 3 hrs a week in class and about another 4-5 hrs outside of class.

[karatekid9811]

im 12 and have 5 months untill i test for first degree i have been learning since i was 6 years old. Im looking forward to taking my test. But after hearing that after 5-6 years of training its just regular to get your black belt i thought over to myself.

[Martialist4hire]

Depends on how long it takes for the cheque to clear :D :D
Someone had to say it.

Again from my perspective it again depends on the base curriculum provided by the governing body, and how the individual school applies this to their curriculum and their own guidelines in terms of technical proficiency and understanding. With no real regulations in place this question is tough to answer.

Kukkiwon has time requirements and pattern requirements, that is about it. It took me about 5 minutes to learn keumgang, getting good at it took a little longer. Does this mean I'm ready for the next dan ranking?

Individual schools are able to basically do what they want, which is essentially where my first statement in this post came from. Lack of regulations from the top allows for schools to do this. My opinion . . . major problem.

Just as a side note from this post, majority of people on here would probably be shocked/surprised/disgusted how much time I've spent doing TKD, and where I rank. Time is not always indicative of understanding/proficiency and in my opinion should not really be used as a measuring stick to determine when it is time to test, be it longer or a shorter time for a particular individual.

Meh . . . what do I know :D



I would say that a lack of a governing body to regulate all schools adds value to the training provided by a true martial arts school.
I see people progressing through the ranks at a furious pace in schools that emphasize the "sport" of TaeKwonDo while after 4 years in a more traditional school I am just ready to mid term for brown belt.
I see the value of my training, and with a life dedicated to a martial philosophy have no doubt that in a confrontation I will walk away the victor.
However, in an Olympic-style sporting event I could never compete with the fast track "black belts" that train specifically for the sport.
I would say that if the sport and the art could be separated then, this discussion would have more meaning.

[Artikon]

The issue is that there are simply to many schools to regulate for the governing bodies. Another issue revolves around government regulations on who can open a school and call themselves what (at least in North America).

I've seen some schools take it upon themselves to form "coalitions" with schools of similar goals in mind. The goal in itself is to self regulate each other and "compete" as it were to improve school standards, instruction standards, and student standards.

This is a step in the right direction in my opinion, but the danger is of like minded schools developing to big of an ego that they ignore what the rest of the world is doing. I've seen this happen as well. It takes a very humble individual to take a look at their school and say it could use improvement, and then look to other schools and individuals for assistance. Networking is a great thing, by a school owner/instructor needs to have the right mindset before doing this.

Again . . . meh what do I know. Just ramblings . . . :D

[TKDTraditional]

you heard.... exactly...don't take it for granted. the situation isn't the same everywhere.

here in tkd it's not easy to get the black belt neither are dan levels.


Yes, I **heard** that from a friend in high school (long time ago) who was a Black Belt in Judo. I hadn't even started TKD at that time but I've always remembered that comment.

Testing requirements and expectations have changed over the last 30 years with the increased commercialization of many martial arts. I don't know if that comment is true anymore. Is Judo more standardized nowadays?

Regarding TKD, although many schools have time requirements, they don't seem to have quality requirements. I know of a young man who recently promototed to 3rd dan in WTF. He's put in his time but has nothing to show for technique. I'm embarrassed.

[Covane]

At my Tae Kwon Do school it takes an average of four years to earn your black belt. I will get mine next June, as of then I would have been training for four years and three months.

[neryo_tkd]

Regarding TKD, although many schools have time requirements, they don't seem to have quality requirements. I know of a young man who recently promototed to 3rd dan in WTF. He's put in his time but has nothing to show for technique. I'm embarrassed.


many schools where? in your area? maybe. that could be true. i don't know.

but if you mean in the general sense, then you're wrong.

[Incredible Bulk]

pay me £1000 and i can have one sent out to you within a few days...

ITA UK is a joke for black belts, you can obtain them in 1.5 years and not have the ability to perform most techniques.
Learn the form patterns, average sparring and breaking your wood = black belt.

when your trying to learn the ropes yourself and your watching black belts try and do a basic hook kick, its embarressing.

one of the reasons i quit

[TKDTraditional]

Regarding TKD, although many schools have time requirements, they don't seem to have quality requirements. I know of a young man who recently promototed to 3rd dan in WTF. He's put in his time but has nothing to show for technique. I'm embarrassed.
many schools where? in your area? maybe. that could be true. i don't know.

but if you mean in the general sense, then you're wrong.

I stand by my statement. I live in the US and I visit schools everywhere I go. I just moved from one state to another and I see the same thing. **In many schools** the only thing that determines when I student a tests is time since his last promotion. And when they do test, they don't seem to be judged on the stated cirriculum of the school.

I often seen students promote who never kicked above their belt! They're more often unsuccessful at breaking than successful. I even saw one person test for high red who was required to break 2 boards. In their 3rd attempt, one board broke. The broken board was removed and they tried again--to break the single remaining board! Is the testing requirement to break 2 boards or one--at a time?

I've seen people forget their patterns. Sure, testing--especially for Black Belt--is stressful but martial arts are stressful. Being attacked in the street is stressful. One should, especially a Black Belt, be up to the challenge. And, yes, I've failed tests myself. In my own school, people have failed to promote to BB even after successful patterns AND successful breaks. The quality just wasn't Black Belt level.

If more students failed promotion tests (occasionally, not all the time and not every student), instructors would be more careful when sending someone up. It's embarassing to fail. It should be embarassing for the instructor as well. How often does a testing board feel ashamed for an instructor--perhaps one of their friends--who sends a student up when he's clearly not prepared. They probably promote the student and avoid all shame. Pretty soon, lower quality becomes the norm, and promotion becomes expected. "I paid my test fee, now give me my rank!"

Maybe this should be in the "McDojo" thread. But I think it opens a lot of schools up to being called MdDojos.

[Martialist4hire]

So after taking into account my own experience and reading about those of others, I've come to a few conclusions about the Tae kwon do community.

1. Since tae kwon do is the most widely practiced martial art in the world today, it stands to reason that it will be the most widely abused and misrepresented martial art in the world.

2. No single organization is free from the mcdojang effect. Regardless of the organization to which you belong: WTF, ITF, UTI, ATA, GTF, or any of the thousands of others that are out there, you can feel confident in the fact that somebody, somewhere is running a mcdojang under your flag.

3. Shop around for your training. Don't be surprised when you find a mcdojang. Just put the word out about the charlatan and don't go to his/her school.

4. A black belt represents more than just skill and ability in a martial art. Experience and maturity are among the many qualities that a black belt must possess. A child may be an excellent technician and perform poomse without equal, but that child can't be a true black belt. This is also true for adults who haven't grown up yet. I have known a lot of idiots that for some reason or another have a black belt. A person can study the martial arts their whole life and never learn anything beyond good technique.

5. To learn martial arts from a true master of that art is a rare thing, and can't be bought in a strip mall or down town shop.

[neryo_tkd]

I stand by my statement. I live in the US and I visit schools everywhere I go. I just moved from one state to another and I see the same thing. **In many schools** the only thing that determines when I student a tests is time since his last promotion. And when they do test, they don't seem to be judged on the stated cirriculum of the school.


you're talking about the US. ok, no problem. i don't live there and i don't care. so i stand by my statement as well, you haven't seen tkd in other parts of the world. again, there is no room for generalisations.

[mjn]

At my Tae Kwon Do school it takes an average of four years to earn your black belt. I will get mine next June, as of then I would have been training for four years and three months.

I don't think you'll get a Black Belt just because you've been training for 4 years :rolleyes:

[TKDTraditional]

you're talking about the US. ok, no problem. i don't live there and i don't care. so i stand by my statement as well, you haven't seen tkd in other parts of the world. again, there is no room for generalisations.

Just to round that subject off, I've also visited schools in Dublin and the Netherlands. I didn't observe long enough to make a statement about their quality. I hope to visit Bristol in the near future and I also hope to visit a couple schools along the way--maybe it could be yours! :)

I also have a colleague who trains in Hong Kong--WTF. So much for generalizations about seeing TKD in the other parts of the world.

[ronaldk]

i'm happy to see my club starting to shape up with their testing.

new policies:

- two consecutive C's (70-79) at promotions will automatically fail you.
- two pre-evaluations will be made, just to qualify for a promotion evaluation

the master is being a lot stricter with his gradings too. specially on the kids. in about 8 groups that tested, i only think i saw 1 or 2 kids graded at or over 90%. good to know that we won't have a bunch of 15 and 16 year old blackbelts one day that can't do anything right.

[neryo_tkd]

Just to round that subject off, I've also visited schools in Dublin and the Netherlands. I didn't observe long enough to make a statement about their quality. I hope to visit Bristol in the near future and I also hope to visit a couple schools along the way--maybe it could be yours! :)

I also have a colleague who trains in Hong Kong--WTF. So much for generalizations about seeing TKD in the other parts of the world.


you're so funny. with such a tiny little number of clubs you've seen, you think you know it all. ok, you do.

[TKDTraditional]

you're so funny. with such a tiny little number of clubs you've seen, you think you know it all. ok, you do.

This thread is taking a curious spin. First you were complaining about generalizations but I said I've observed many schools. Then you generalize that I'm only talking about the US so I said I've also observed schools in other countries. Now you're generalizing by calling it a "tiny little number of clubs."

Yes, considering the widespread, popular success of TaeKwon-Do, and other martial arts, through out the world, any number of schools one person observes or trains at would be tiny.

You also generalize by saying I think I know it all. So I now ask, what's your experience? How many different schools have you observed? Trained at? No generalizations!
Note: you can't count watching videos off the web.

[wudangfajing]

The thing about ranking ist is based on a philosophie call Big Idea/ Little Idea.
This philosophie takes into consideration that youare in this for life Martial Arts. An no I did not invent this this is how the concept of schooling in general is set up even Elementary, High School, Collage an on....
In 5 Years you learn the Little Idea of a style forinstance how to train a specific method of a punch contuesly an actual set practice form.
This is when you learn how to practice ingeneral you only take into consideration the thing you are doing not other ways of fighting.
In 10 Years you learn the Big Idea of a style for instance how you will react to many different attack from style that are not even taught in that school. THere is usually medicine taught at same time to heal your own body from injury the instuctor will give you what kungs the style came from you will be advised to develop a method of self taught practice that you bring be for the class for ridicule. This helps to shred the ego of the practictioner to truly learn that his school is not the best an there are any number of thugs full well willing to take advantage of your mistake. You usually touch on many subjects in this class includes many style for review. You will learn how to fight standing up, squating, an laying down usually also learn the three ways a fight progress enter tech, control tech, finish tech. That is the difference between schools that teach just in 18 months to get black belt. It is not meant as a vocation for the student just so friendly information that will make them feel good for short time. A school based on real training an real fighting is about learning that you have to rid yourself of the ego an accept life regardless is not a easy trek to find self understanding an development in anything.

[TKDTraditional]

Thanks wudangfajing. That was nice.

It makes me think about schools that only focus on tournament sparring (Little Idea) and those that focus on more holistic martial arts (Big Idea). Even within one style, how often do schools get focused on sparring only students from their own group? That's the advantage of open tournaments.

I find it most frustrating when you visit another school and spar, you soon learn they have different rules! For example, if points can't be scored by (non-contact) punches to the head, no one even blocks the head! Whoa, I'm scoring points all day and the other guy thinks I'm wasting my time.

How much of the Big Idea is supposed to be learned after making Black Belt?

[StuartGee]

I was informed the other night that in January some time my Instructor feels that I should be testing for my Black Tags, along with another adult from our class. This would be after 4 years of training on my part, and about 5 for my classmate. I also know that it will be a minimum of 12 to 18 months before our instructor will consider us ready to test again, and maybe even longer before I feel ready to test - it's a fair chance that I would already have my Black Tags but I passed on the chance to test for my Red belt as I personally did not feel that I was up to the standards to have a Red belt.
So, about 5-6 years I would say to get Black Belt in our school.

[wudangfajing]

BIG IDEA/LITTLE IDEA

That is a philosophie throughout all style of schooling used. Example in college you will spend some amount of time on odd things includeing your major as you get you Associates Degree. You start out focusing on the large over all idea it takes longer cause you are in this to find where you can fit this in your life an slowly develop your understanding. Bachalor you learn a little bit smaller idea this progresses to the smallest idea as you get your PhD.

Well usually you are doing just that in an esternal school spend most of your time on the small way at first on the most external part of your bodies contact point. You will spend the rest of your blackbelt time on the big idea but you will need to balance the two half of the idea as you go along.

So what i mean by what i wrote just above here is that for most external approaches you will spend 5 years (tea kwon do is external)for the small idea, early after that you will spend 10 years to advance thru what are alot of other ideas to the end of your schools blackbelt programs to where you have went beyond what can be learned in that system. At this point you will be able to apply the philosophie of the school approach to any other school you attend in Martial Arts. Often from one rank in black to next rank they say 2 years on average but some style dont have real ranking systems. So like Wing Chung there is no ranking system. They believe the one that do it an many Chinese system say were in it for life so no need for ranking somone. These system usually have no point sparring an the schools i attended we sparred with out gear. Yes, i live in America. Gear cost alot an most of the ppl i spar against can not afford that stuff. The thing is we would buy some for the group an pass them around for Tounaments. Tournament are just good for meeting an finding what will work every time against opponents. The rules thing is usually a way to say that you are not good at somthing so you have to learn certain thing in martial arts that are important.

The important things are like this:
1. How to enter.
2. How to bridge the gap.
3. How to control your opponent without leting him control you.
4. How to finish the fight.

The finish is often the most important thing to cause no on remembers what you did before that moment usually.

Also, every tournament i ever went to they had rules set up for certain ppl as in a person to win form the school that started the tournament sounds bad but hay you make the rules and control the out come right the other side of the fight game. So, to answer this you have to have a fight game. That is a totally different subject. That is also where you end up when you get passed your blackbelt learning the other side of the fight game. To kill is easy to win without offending all concerned is hard. Fight using an agressive approach an i assure you that you will piss of a grandma of the person you fighting. It happened to me.

[AITKDMan]

In my dojang it takes an average of 4 - 5 years to acheive 1st Dan status. Speaking as an instructor I can say that it is very hard to generalize the amount of time needed to reach black belt level because it really depends on the individual students. I think 4 - 5 years is a good compromise between the Dojangs that hand out a black belt after a year and a half and the Dojangs it takes 7 or 8 years to earn a black belt in. This keeps students interested while maintaining some level of credibility when they demonstrate what they can do. PERSONALLY, I think no one, with a few exceptions, should be getting a black belt in under 5 years (it took me 6 years of Tae Kwon Do after 2 years of Karate), but that is an unrealistic expectation in todays society, especially with the children - they will lose interest if it takes what they percieve to be an unreachable amount of time to get their black belt. I have been thinking about it lately and 4 - 5 years seems reasonable - most people finish college in 4 -5 year so you should be able to get your black belt in that amount of time as well.

Now, some students are exeptionally talented in martial arts and there is a desire to award them their belt much sooner. What this looses sight of is the fact that you do not award a black belt to someone who is incredibly physcially talented...you award it to someone who imbodies all aspects of martial arts. By making people wait 4 - 5 years I believe you require a certain amount of dedication while remaining realistic about what you can actually expect back from the average person. This also forces the students who can come in and perform all the moves when first shown them to remain humble and builds the more mental aspects of martial arts...it forces them to begin to understand the moves on a deeper level. If these students should happen to already be martial artists in every sense of the word then they will, no doubt, understand that they have to wait a little longer until they can reach black belt level.

There are exceptions to every rule, but this is how I perceive things. Its really a balancing act of trying to explain some of the finer parts of the art to them, while not letting it get boring.

[neryo_tkd]

then they will, no doubt, understand that they have to wait a little longer until they can reach black belt level.

it's not really that they HAVE to wait. it's not like they're doing the same things at the dojang every training session. there are new things that my students learn all the time. so step by step they get their coloured belts and then the black one. at my school there is a flow of things, and things cannot be skipped. my students know that.

[TKDTraditional]

This brings up something I've been thinking about lately. What are the typical requirements--as if anything is typical--when someone moves from one school or system to another?

Let's exclude colored belts who move around. In fact, let's say that all colored belt testing is just preparation for the big test: Black Belt. Students train, learn and test all within the world of their local studio then go before a panel of judges who decide if they've achieved the standards of Black Belt required by whatever organization or federation certifies such things.

OK, someone with a Black Belt in one school moves to another school and wants/hopes to be recognized as a Black Belt there too. I thinks it's often a courtesy to allow transfer Black Belts to wear/claim their rank at least for some period of time. Does he live up to the standards of the new school? Maybe he exceeds them. What is he expected to do to achieve full recognition? Does he have to buy a new uniform, remove patches, wear new patches? What is required for promotion?

I read somewhere online that the ITF recognizes transfer Black Belts up to 3rd dan. I don't know what standards are imposed for promotion to 4th dan. Kukkiwon, I believe, doesn't recognize Black Belts but you can easily test.

What do you think? What should be required when a Black Belt changes schools or styles? McDojo warning! Should a school require multiple tests for transfer students just to collect the fees even though the student has obvious advanced-level skills?

[AITKDMan]

On a quick side note my dad promoted for his black belt tonight! He has been training for 7 years and through a couple of foot surgeries, elbow tendonitis and a bad knee, so I'm pretty proud of him.

He is a good example of having to look at what the student can do at their particular maxium. He started at the age of 38 and hadn't done much physical exercise for 15 years...and he smokes. His stretch isn't that great and his lungs suffer because of the smoking (although i think his test today has opened his mind to quiting a bit because he said he felt like he was gonna pass out like 3 times). However, he has come a long way and put a lot of effort in. Sure his technique is not as great as somebody who started when they were in their teens and got their blackbelt in their early 20's - there's really no way it could be, but that doesn't mean he doesn't deserve it.

Also, if a black belt comes to our school from another TKD school they get to keep their belt...but if they were from a mcdojang they end up quiting quick anyways because they can't really keep up. If a blackbelt comes from another style they are a whitebelt, plain and simple. They may get to their blackbelt faster because they have prior knowledge - especially if it is from a similar style - but if they are truly a blackbelt then they will understand that a new style means starting over.

I've been practicing TKD for 12 years and will hopefully get my 4th dan over the summer sometime. I have been an instructor for 6 years, have ran tests, taught every type of class we offer, am usually in the dojang atleast 15 hours a week (when not at school and when I am instructing) and practice outside of the dojang everyday. I am also starting to take Aikido on Tuesday but hold no illusions - I will start as a beginner just like everyone else. I know that my knowledege of that particular art is very limited and will be for a while and I think going back to white belt is a very good lesson in humility for any black belt.

[neryo_tkd]

congrats to your dad, and yes, be very proud of him. :)

[TKDTraditional]

Also, if a black belt comes to our school from another TKD school they get to keep their belt...but if they were from a mcdojang they end up quiting quick anyways because they can't really keep up. If a blackbelt comes from another style they are a whitebelt, plain and simple. They may get to their blackbelt faster because they have prior knowledge - especially if it is from a similar style - but if they are truly a blackbelt then they will understand that a new style means starting over.

This reminds me of a post somewhere else on this planet that described a "Broken Black Belt" class, specifically for students who transfer from a McDojang.

Congradulations to your dad!

[tkd4life]

Being a black belt 1st dan is easy. it only takes about 2-3 years. i have done tae kwon do in korea when i was young and it only took 2 years to get 1st dan. but getting 2+ dan is harder. it takes 2 years to get 2nd dan and additional years after that.

[AllieB]

As long or as short as you make it, how involved you are and your spirit towards it. it does take typicaly a few years but as long as it takes as long as your heart and soul is in it the entire time you shouldnt care or worry about how long it takes its not when you get there it is how you get there but im just a green belt hey what do i know. Good luck

[neryo_tkd]

As long or as short as you make it,

good answer :)

i really don't understand why people get so obssessed with the black belt. when i started training, here and there the idea of having the black belt one day crossed my mind, but i was always looking forward to the training sessions and all the new things we would learn and do.

[a_dash]

good answer :)

i really don't understand why people get so obssessed with the black belt. when i started training, here and there the idea of having the black belt one day crossed my mind, but i was always looking forward to the training sessions and all the new things we would learn and do.

haha, quite agree with u, it is just about reputation anyway, i myself took about 8 years to get black belt..the reason? i dont like to memorize the taegeeuk, just like to spar :) & also love to learn new kicking techniques..

[TKDMORGANVILLE]

Well I've been around a while i've noticed various schools have different requirements. It took me almost 3 years to get my 1st degree, and 12 years afterwards to get to 4th degree. On avg I train 5-6 days a week for 3+ hrs a night. I agree with the earlier comment that your real training starts at black belt. My first 3 years I primarily spent learning technical knowledge, and discipline as well as conditioning my body for martial arts. Ever since TKD has been about perfecting my techniques and mastering the art as a whole so that I can safely earn the title of Master. I currently train with a 5th degree, 6th degree and 7th degree and I love every second of it. So back to earning the black belt I think if you train hard and have built enough knowledge and experience to be a BB then by all means do it. I am not one who thinks if you go once a week for 3 years you should have a black belt. That kind of stuff doesn't fly with me. I wouldn't advance someone who didn't at least spend 6+ hrs a week training at the dojang.

[masterbockler]

Well I've been around a while i've noticed various schools have different requirements. It took me almost 3 years to get my 1st degree, and 12 years afterwards to get to 4th degree. On avg I train 5-6 days a week for 3+ hrs a night. I agree with the earlier comment that your real training starts at black belt. My first 3 years I primarily spent learning technical knowledge, and discipline as well as conditioning my body for martial arts. Ever since TKD has been about perfecting my techniques and mastering the art as a whole so that I can safely earn the title of Master. I currently train with a 5th degree, 6th degree and 7th degree and I love every second of it. So back to earning the black belt I think if you train hard and have built enough knowledge and experience to be a BB then by all means do it. I am not one who thinks if you go once a week for 3 years you should have a black belt. That kind of stuff doesn't fly with me. I wouldn't advance someone who didn't at least spend 6+ hrs a week training at the dojang.

So you wouldn't advance someone who, say, took 7 years off and then came back to train for about 3 weeks before he was looking to test? Just curious your thoughts on this.

[Taurus]

BB is not just about reputation, everybody can wear BB.
In TKD-ITF color BLACK means the maturity and proficiency in TKD. it also indicates the wearer's impreviousness to darkness and fear. The main purpose of the belt in this art of self-defence is to represent the philosophical significance of Taekwon-Do practioner.

[Alexander]

BB is not just about reputation, everybody can wear BB.
In TKD-ITF color BLACK means the maturity and proficiency in TKD. it also indicates the wearer's impreviousness to darkness and fear. The main purpose of the belt in this art of self-defence is to represent the philosophical significance of Taekwon-Do practioner.
Does that actually mean anything?

[Taurus]

Yes, as TKD-ITF Practioner.

[Mitch]

...it also indicates the wearer's impreviousness to darkness and fear...
I love that bit, cracks me up every time :)

Not only have I met the minimum grading requirements for ITF, I can now appear in a support role for Blade! :D

Mitch

[StuartA]

Does that actually mean anything?

Yes, it means you have (in theory) the tools to back up your actions so shouldnt bulk with fear when an injustice occurs & go do something about it. (Hence one of my reasons against "too" young black belts posted in paulos er matts thread)!

.. though I would say in some instances, common sense should prevail above wading in against 5 guys with guns! :)

Blades Sidekick... tch... lol


Stuart

[paulol]

Yes, it means you have (in theory) the tools to back up your actions so shouldnt bulk with fear when an injustice occurs & go do something about it. (Hence one of my reasons against "too" young black belts posted in paulos er matts thread)!

.. though I would say in some instances, common sense should prevail above wading in against 5 guys with guns! :)

Blades Sidekick... tch... lol


Stuart

junior bb's are training to defend against kids there own age or there abouts.

anyone who tells a child that because they are now a bb and can take down a fully grown man is a danger to children and shold not be teaching!

[Taurus]

Only Wolverine can front the 5 guys with gun :D
During my school days i'm fear no one, now time is change I am a familyman so i have to think thousand times. :)

[Svart]

I think this shows the true extent of a mcdojo.

Sorry the embed function for it is disabled. Just click the direct link at the top.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Y22SfgQEbKY

Keep in mind, these people are currently 3rd Dan, testing for their 4th. And this is the quality.

[Darkfalcon]

These are the people who unfortunately give us a bad name amongst martial artists. I wouldn't accept technique like that from a colored rank. I mean anyone can be "off" or take a break at third Dan, but no one should look like that during a testing.

[Ty-00]

Havn't read the whole thread, but back to the OP. 4 years minumum in theory, if you grade at every oppertunity (max of 3 colour belt grades per year until redbelt) but I don't know of many who've done it in less than 5.

[locust]

Most of the clubs i,ve trained with take an average of 5-6 years with no prior M.A experience but i have seen it reached much faster for people with previous experience depending on what they could prove their skill level was

[crystos]

hmm i have seen people get blackbelts in 2-3yrs and are good. and i have seen the 7yr blackbelts who are crap. I think it depends on ability.

[TKD Black Belt]

These are the people who unfortunately give us a bad name amongst martial artists. I wouldn't accept technique like that from a colored rank. I mean anyone can be "off" or take a break at third Dan, but no one should look like that during a testing.

well said :)

But I wouldn't even except sparring like that from a white or yellow belt!

Their hands were down almost the whole time, and wats with the hi-5's???

The breaking was atrocious! Always be sure you can complete a break before doing it... especially for a test.

[fishyfeetz]

I've been training 13 years, but TKD is not my only sport so I'm not fully deticated to it, and just started testing for black a few months ago. Our testing also takes forever, even before the actual test in front of the board.. The apsolute minimum to get a black at our school would be 6 years but that's going to every class and every competition. Also, if you're not 16 you're only a junior black belt then you have to retest, another reason I've waited nearly a year :( lol.. but the 6 + years makes sence to me anything else seems false almost..like you haven't worked as hard to achieve it..

[potlucky10]

I was reading a post in one of the forums that gave such an easy and practical insight into belt progression'
"Take your belt that you have whatever color, & go through all the curriculum. Next put on your white belt or have no gi at all do the same curriculum, take notes on the difference. Last borrow a Black Belt from someone & yet again note the differences again. Is there some great power that comes from having a Black belt around your waist?"

Now do not get me wrong having a black belt is not something I snuff my nose at, it is quite an accomplishment!
But getting your Black Belt should not be the goal on focuses on when an under rank, It should be another step along the road to in one's journey toward mastering an art, over at least one lifetime, if not more.

To note I am an under rank, Brown Belt, and I think the reward is not in getting another belt but in working towards mastering the aspects of TKD.

[meghatronic]

I think this shows the true extent of a mcdojo.

Sorry the embed function for it is disabled. Just click the direct link at the top.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Y22SfgQEbKY

Keep in mind, these people are currently 3rd Dan, testing for their 4th. And this is the quality.
Oh my word that is terrible!

[TKDstudent]

Now do not get me wrong having a black belt is not something I snuff my nose at, it is quite an accomplishment!
But getting your Black Belt should not be the goal on focuses on when an under rank, It should be another step along the road to in one's journey toward mastering an art, over at least one lifetime, if not more.

To note I am an under rank, Brown Belt, and I think the reward is not in getting another belt but in working towards mastering the aspects of TKD.To me a BB is just one who has grasped the basics. While it is an accomplishent I don't think I would categorize it as "quite an accomplishment!" That being said I do believe that it is a start of what hopefully will be a lifelong journey. I was not aware however that TKD had a brown belt. I think that was a leftover from Karate.

[Kwajman]

I have students that come to class twice a week and I've got two students that are usually here between 12-15 hours per week. Obviously those two are going to reach black belt much quicker than my others. I'd rather promote those students quicker as they learn new techniques rather than hold them to a 2-3 month waiting period to test and risk the chance of them getting bored.

[potlucky10]

I was not aware however that TKD had a brown belt. I think that was a leftover from Karate.

My school is a bit of a blend w/ TKD as the base but influences of Hapkido and elements of Wu Shu. IT started over on the west coast w/ George Chung & Cynthia Rothrock. So it may be a take off of some Karate influence as well, but I have not asked yet.

[TKDstudent]

I have students that come to class twice a week and I've got two students that are usually here between 12-15 hours per week. Obviously those two are going to reach black belt much quicker than my others. I'd rather promote those students quicker as they learn new techniques rather than hold them to a 2-3 month waiting period to test and risk the chance of them getting bored.Absolutely! 1st I think too many put too much emphasis on what a BB is, stands for or symbolizes. To me it is just about grasping the basics, like letters of the alphabet. It is like a student who enters an ESL school to learn English as there primary language may be Chinese. They can only go 1x a week at might after work & are even forced to miss some classes due to other adult responsibilities. Compare them to a full time grade student who goes to school 5x a week & spends hours a day on learning, followed up by mom & dad at home helping them with their homework. TKD to me is an individual road to self improvement. Since we are all individuals, individual circumstances will certainly dictate individual progress towards that self imporvement. JMO

[Kwajman]

Thanks for the support. In my system we do have some leeway regarding how fast someone can promote fortunately. I would hate to lose even one great student due to some administrative rule or technicality....

[Jeffkins]

I was not aware however that TKD had a brown belt. I think that was a leftover from Karate.

Yeh but all belts are leftovers from karate. =P

[potlucky10]

I start almost a year ago now and have progressed fairly rapidly, but during the summer I was putting in three hours a day outside of the dojo and memorizing katas. I always say it takes everybody the same amount of energy to get anything do, some just apply more time or focus and are able to reach a step in less time. Which can be transfered over into other aspects of life as well. That does not mean one persons cares less than another; a single person with little work obligations has more time & energy to train than someone with a family and demanding job duties. What really matters it that you are there, just my take on it though.

[TKDstudent]

Yeh but all belts are leftovers from karate. =P
Yes good point, I was meaning the colors, with brown not being a TKD 1, but a karate 1. The colors white yellow, green, blue, red & black have traditions in Korean culture & are even used on the Korean Tourism official govt agencies logo!

[TKDstudent]

I start almost a year ago now and have progressed fairly rapidly, but during the summer I was putting in three hours a day outside of the dojo and memorizing katas. Sounds like you are studying karate! katas in a dojo

[Patrick Smith]

I can't believe that you can get a black belt in around 3 years! ... It takes at least 7 years at my school.

[Jeffkins]

Yes good point, I was meaning the colors, with brown not being a TKD 1, but a karate 1. The colors white yellow, green, blue, red & black have traditions in Korean culture & are even used on the Korean Tourism official govt agencies logo!

Yeh I was just joking, I've never seen a brown belt, but green belt isn't an "official" belt colour either. It only seems to be prevalent in American belt systems from my experience, though we have have them as 'junior belts'.

[potlucky10]

I may be going onto a different thread but what are the different forms in TKD? I know of Poomses and Tei Guk (I think), I train with Palgwes, but what are the forms of TKD?

[Jeffkins]

I may be going onto a different thread but what are the different forms in TKD? I know of Poomses and Tei Guk (I think), I train with Palgwes, but what are the forms of TKD?

You are entirely off topic but kukkiwon poomse are taeguks (or however you decide to spell them) and they used to be palgwes.

[potlucky10]

Thank you for the info.

No need to respond to this post though.

[TKDstudent]

I can't believe that you can get a black belt in around 3 years! ... It takes at least 7 years at my school.Wow that really great if it is because you view BB different that a beginner or really sad that it takes your teacher & school to have someone grasp the 7 long years. Why? What are they doing wrong?

[TKDstudent]

Yeh I was just joking, I've never seen a brown belt, but green belt isn't an "official" belt colour either. It only seems to be prevalent in American belt systems from my experience, though we have have them as 'junior belts'.No green belt is an official color & is part of the Korean culture that is also represented in their tourism logo.

[TKDstudent]

I may be going onto a different thread but what are the different forms in TKD? I know of Poomses and Tei Guk (I think), I train with Palgwes, but what are the forms of TKD?:topic:
But here goes:
the hein ahn karate katas (Japanese)
the chang hon or chon ji 24/5 set of the ITF, the 1st Korean forms 50s-60s
palgue 60s
taeguek 70s

[Jeffkins]

No green belt is an official color & is part of the Korean culture that is also represented in their tourism logo.

The Korean Taekwondo Association does not list it as an official colour and the organisations in Australia do not either, so regardless as whether Korean culture has symbolism behind it or not, most places would not recognize green in my experience.

[Patrick Smith]

Well, at my school, we have white, orange, blue, gold, green, purple (Me!), brown, red and black.

The green belt is officially the start of the advanced and ranking belts for us and it symbolizes real skill and strong basic knowledge. All the belts before that are preparation for the advanced belts.

[TKDstudent]

The Korean Taekwondo Association does not list it as an official colour
That is interesting. Do they list any colors? If so where can I link to that. If there is no website for it can you give us the official colors & direct us to where they can be found. Thanks in advance.

[TKDstudent]

Well, at my school, we have white, orange, blue, gold, green, purple (Me!), brown, red and black.
The green belt is officially the start of the advanced and ranking belts for us and it symbolizes real skill and strong basic knowledge. All the belts before that are preparation for the advanced belts.
Well I am not sure where orange comes from, but purple & brown are karate colors. Now do these colors that your school use have any meaning or significance? If so, what are they? If not I guess that makes the arguement easier to wage that colors don't matter. jmo

[rexmaster]

Belt system in Korea (20 years ago, not sure how it goes these days):

White, Yellow, Blue, Red, Red/Black (under 15 yrs old) or Black (15 yrs or older).

It takes about 2.5 years to get 1st degree black belt with +5 days/week class attendance.

As for WTF practioners, if it takes 7 years to get your 1st degree black belt, something is wrong with you school or with yourself. In addition, the black belt certificate must be issued by Kukkiwon, Korea only, otherwise, it's meaningless. Some TKD schools (a.k.a Mcdojos), not affiliated with Kukkiwon issues their own black belt certificates.

Not sure how ITF operates.

[Jeffkins]

That is interesting. Do they list any colors? If so where can I link to that. If there is no website for it can you give us the official colors & direct us to where they can be found. Thanks in advance.

I just quickly looked up the information at this website:
http://www.koreataekwondo.org/KTA_ENG/html/ency/intro03.asp

White color means birth or beginning (the ultimate source). It is the central color of the three primary colors and a base of all. That connotes the beginning as well as the end which is another beginning of a new start: everlasting recurrence of life and death.
Yellow symbolizes a new birth, blue rebirth, red passion, and black completion. The five belt colors show the regroups process of practice and finally arriving at the completion of the big-self.

[TKDstudent]

I just quickly looked up the information at this website:
http://www.koreataekwondo.org/KTA_ENG/html/ency/intro03.aspThanks for that, I sit corrected :cool:
I notice they (KTA) use 9 gups & 9 dans. I thought the KKW did 10 dans. I wonder if the KKW is any different with the colors. I wonder why the KTA does not use green, but appreciate you correcting me!

[Jeffkins]

Thanks for that, I sit corrected :cool:
I notice they (KTA) use 9 gups & 9 dans. I thought the KKW did 10 dans. I wonder if the KKW is any different with the colors. I wonder why the KTA does not use green, but appreciate you correcting me!

mm, i checked the Kukkiwon website first but I couldn't find any information and I think it's possible they did that on purpose due to the differences around the world and they seem to only really care about the black belt syllabus. Also the KTA probably didn't mention 10th dan as they usually consider it an honorary rank awarded posthumously. I think.

[TKD elite]

in our school it goes white, yellow, green, blue, red, black. But with an intermediate between each grade, yellow tag, green tag etc.
Took me just over 5 yrs to reach 1st dan, but that was training 5 times a week for 2 of those 5 yrs.
Theoretically with our grading system it is possible to get it in 2-3 yrs but dont know anyone who has done that. Usually between 4 and 7 yrs.

[divine spiral]

it usually takes about 4 yrs at least to reach black belt in my association(INTA)

[vismitananda]

In my school, we have white, yellow low and high, blue low and high, red low and high, brown low and high, then black belts. First and so on dans.

Usually at my school you'll be black belt after 3-4 years of thrice a wik training.

[johntm]

At the school I'm at, about 2.5-3 years normally. I get mine in October, a little over two years after I started. It may seem like a mcdojang, but trust me, it's not. Most people that get their black belt train 2 or 3 times a week, I train 5 or 6.

[Ironized]

these times make me want to punch a baby....

i started at the age of 8 in 2001, i was a red tip in 2005 at the age of 12. shortly after i gave up due to injury and instructor injury leaving me with a poor instructor.

i have just come back at the age of 16... and will be grading for 2nd gup in September.

that was 4 years to get to red tip, and i forsee another 2 before i get black.

edit: belt colours at my club.

white meaning birth.

yellow, the heavens inwhich we climb towards

green the earth in which the seed is planted

blue the sky to which we grow

red to show danger

black as it is the opposite of white and thus denotes death

note this is my dodgy memory from 2005 >.<

all with intermittent tips

[Zerodauto]

It all depends on how hard you train, the minimum time is 2 1/2 years if you go everyday and practice your hardest. To gain each additional level of black belt after wards takes years. The concept of the black belt came from ancient warriors training so long and hard that their belt would become black.

[potlucky10]

I had read a proverb about how long it takes to get a black belt.
A student asked the teacher on his first day:
How long will it take to get a black belt?
Ten years the teacher replied
What if I train really hard?
Twenty years.
What if I focus day and night and only stop training for food and rest.
Thirty years, the teacher replied. With a puzzled look the student asked the teacher,
That makes no sense, please would you explain.
If you have both eyes focused on where you want to go you will have no eyes to find the way.

[Patrick Smith]

I had read a proverb about how long it takes to get a black belt.
A student asked the teacher on his first day:
How long will it take to get a black belt?
Ten years the teacher replied
What if I train really hard?
Twenty years.
What if I focus day and night and only stop training for food and rest.
Thirty years, the teacher replied. With a puzzled look the student asked the teacher,
That makes no sense, please would you explain.
If you have both eyes focused on where you want to go you will have no eyes to find the way.

I don't think that makes any sense. Is it suggesting that if you work as hard as possible for a single goal your chances of obtaining it are lessened?

No sense does that make!

Let's say there was a student who set a goal of black belt, goes out to achieve it without writing a map (or training program). He gets lost, despairs, and returns home. He didn't achieve his goal because he didn't know how to get there (lost his way).

Another student also wanted to reach his goal of black belt. He knew exactly what he wanted, so he studied some maps (training books) and wrote a map (training program) that would get him to his goal as quickly and effeciently as possible. He went out, followed the map, and reached his goal. Yay! :D

The second student knew where he was going and how to get there. He knew the "way" to his goal and he wasn't going to get lost searching for a goal that he didn't know the way to.

There is nothing wrong with finding a goal and focusing on it 100%, as long as you keep it in perspective with the other things in life.

That's my very poorly written two cents.

[Zerodauto]

I don't think that makes any sense. Is it suggesting that if you work as hard as possible for a single goal your chances of obtaining it are lessened?

No sense does that make!

Let's say there was a student who set a goal of black belt, goes out to achieve it without writing a map (or training program). He gets lost, despairs, and returns home. He didn't achieve his goal because he didn't know how to get there (lost his way).

Another student also wanted to reach his goal of black belt. He knew exactly what he wanted, so he studied some maps (training books) and wrote a map (training program) that would get him to his goal as quickly and effeciently as possible. He went out, followed the map, and reached his goal. Yay! :D

The second student knew where he was going and how to get there. He knew the "way" to his goal and he wasn't going to get lost searching for a goal that he didn't know the way to.

There is nothing wrong with finding a goal and focusing on it 100%, as long as you keep it in perspective with the other things in life.

That's my very poorly written two cents.


What it is basically saying is that the more you try to focus on the advance, the more you basics will suffer. That's my interpretation any way. How can can you get to the level of black belt when you haven't mastered the basics? But I understand what you're saying also. Because I want to become a TKD instructor one day. That is my main goal, but when I go to class the goal then is just to train in the basic until I am ready for the advance. Pretty much, focus on the here and now, because that's all there is.

[Fish Of Doom]

i think what it means is "shut up and train", as opposed to worrying about a stupid belt

[Taiji_Lou]

Have there ever actually been any 10th dan masters?

[Zerodauto]

Have there ever actually been any 10th dan masters?

No, no one has made it to the level of tenth Dan in TKD

[Fish Of Doom]

that's because in most orgs, tkd belts only go up to 9th, not because no one got there

[Mitch]

that's because in most orgs, tkd belts only go up to 9th, not because no one got there

The founder was 9th degree, so it's kind of hard to progress much further :)

Mitch

[Fish Of Doom]

then again, funakoshi was 5th. i think only harada's shotokai stops grading at 5th nowadays

not that it means much, anyway, it's just a partially skill-independent hierarchical rank system (at least in JMA)

[Mitch]

I think TKD ranks are largely honourary after 5th Dan anyway, it's about what you've done for TKD, not what you can do in TKD.

Mitch

[Fish Of Doom]

same for most of karate

[Patrick Smith]

What it is basically saying is that the more you try to focus on the advance, the more you basics will suffer. That's my interpretation any way. How can can you get to the level of black belt when you haven't mastered the basics? But I understand what you're saying also. Because I want to become a TKD instructor one day. That is my main goal, but when I go to class the goal then is just to train in the basic until I am ready for the advance. Pretty much, focus on the here and now, because that's all there is.

Zerodauto, I see what you mean, but mastering the basics would take place along the planned journey. For example, if you want to become a TKD instructor you would be wise to write down your main goal (becoming a TKD instructor) and then your mini-goals that are stages that you will go through along the way of achieving your main goal. For instance, get your black belt, take a instruction course, become certified as a physical trainer, etc.

It's great to focus on the here and now, but it's important to know where you're going (TKD instructorship ... :D) and how to get there (taking qualification test, etc.).

Sorry, I don't mean to hunt you or anything... :D

[Fish Of Doom]

if i want to become a taekwondo instructor, my first goal will be to learn taekwondo.

my second one will be to learn it REALLY well. given TMA class structure, this in itself involves getting past the first black belt.

all else is secondary, IMO