Black Belt In 12 Months?

[Thomas Vince]

How long should it take to get a Black Belt? What is the minimum time that we should require people to have?

[waya]

OK, I have a complicated view on this.

I don't agree with time limits at all, not for color belt ranks or Dan ranks until you are above 1st Dan. I think a student should be given rank when it is deserved and not tested over a specific set of requirements that they will cram on and then forget after the test. They should be tested every day they are in class instead. Anyone can cram hard for a test and pass, then forget it all later. It is harder to do it right every day. That also allows the art to do a bit of adapting to the student's needs without telling them that they have to do one specific thing that maybe they can't do.

The time limit I would say is up to how that student learns and performs. If they can do it in a year, let them, if it takes them 20 years.... that works too.

Rob

[Freeform]

I agree with Rob, the way I've seen some clubs operate is that in the middle or end of a training session the instructor will approach a student and say 'Your a Xbelt now, well done'. Me personally, I believe in a 50/50 continually assesed and 'on the day' approach.

Thanx

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Thomas Vince
How long should it take to get a Black Belt? What is the minimum time that we should require people to have?

If you feel a time restriction is needed, then whatever you feel that restriction should be. If you feel only a level of skill, then whatever skill level you feel is appropriate.

If you are part of an organization they will likely give you restrictions on this.

If you are independant it is your decission.

This only becomes an issue when people try to compare rank between schools, the answer should be don't do that.

Your black belt and mine where not, are not and never will be the same thing.

Its a belt, its part of an internal system, it has nothing to do with other schools. If a school gives shodan after ~6 months, that is fine, if another school gives it after ~6 years thats fine to, just don't try to say they should be at the same level.

UNLESS you are competing, then you should be ranked at the level at which you can compete.

There are a lot of black belts that don't meet the standards they would have to meet for a rank of the same name in my school, thats fine, they're not in my school. Likewise there are probably a good number of kyu ranked students that would, but again they are not in my school.

[Andy Murray]

How long should it take to get a Black Belt? What is the minimum time that we should require people to have?

I feel that the answer to 'how long', depends on three things!

1/ The quantity of required syllabus to be learned.

2/ The amount of Tuition/Practice time applied to that syllabus.

3/ The Standard that the examining board finds acceptable to pass for black belt.

The above varies from system to system.

In the system I practice, the knowledge is the goal, not the belt!

[Melanie]

In the system I practice, the knowledge is the goal, not the belt! Andy Murray

This should be the goal of every organisation, independent and instructor...very well put Andy.

I know I'm not a BB, but I have been taught by a few. There are some out there that just don't meet up with your expectations on occassion. Some have been given there belts I am sure because its about time they got one. Eek - I'm in for it now...ducks and runs...

However, I have been fortunate in finding Sensei to teach me that are competant, well respected and open minded too. Not all bad :D

Melanie

[Thomas Vince]

I know of an instructor here in SC in Columbia to be exact, he is teaching American Karate and he has a friend that is located in Kentucky he went to this instructor and got his BB over a weekend!
I can't say what style because some people will be offended again, it's a shame that there are people out there willing to sell out, because they make all of us that are trying to hold importance and credibility to a BB look bad. Do any of you know any arts that will award BB's to children say under the age of 14? What do you think about a 10 year old BB and what art or style have you seen this in?

[hongkongfuey]

Waya - well said. I have seen styles that hold a student back because they have not been there for enough time. I certainly knew one brown belt that was better than most black belts, but was not allowed to sit his black as he had 'only' done the style for 4 years.

[Ozebob]

The Dan/Kyu system was introduced by Jogoro Kano, the founder of Judo. As a side note, Kano createdJudo after just 8 years or so of training in Jujutsu.

Kano also took the coloured belt system from swimming. heswimmers used to wear sashes or ribbons whose colour denoted whether they wera a novice, intermediate or an experienced competitor.

The Black Belt was used first and there are old photos of Funakoshi Sensei wearing a black sash around his uniform. The obi was created based on similar belts in use and the colours were introduced more and more over time.

The coloured belts have a dual purpose. They allow for the teacher to see at a glance how to arrange his teaching material and they are a goal-setting tool for students.

Students are motivated to achieve their long term goal, the Black Belt, via incremental steps that are visual feedback on their progress to the main goal.

Teachers who feel that the belt system is wrong do not have to adopt same. The Chinese and the Japanese both had a Menkyo Kaiden system which is simply a piece of paper that shows at what stage of learning the holder has reached.

However, the knowledgeable teachers know that nearly all students need extrinsic motivation before reaching the stage where they will train for the sake of the training itself, intrinsic motivation.

The Dai Nippon Butokukai created a Ranking Standards guide for all Budo arts in 1963 and revised it in 1971. It states that a minimum of 3 years of training is required to achieve Shodan. There was no age restriction and most Japanese systems grade juniors to Black Belt.

The International Traditional Karate Federation (ITKF) under Nishiyama Sensei adopted this ranking standard but included a set of standards for kyu grades as well. They also dropped the number of years from 3 back to 2 to achieve Shodan.

The Japan Karate Association in theier 2000 Handbook state that it is possible to achieve Shodan in a year and the grading wuld be carried out in their HQ. In other locations it was to be 3 years.

Many a Japanese Instructor has hopped on a plane in Japan at say 3rd Dan and alighted in another country as a 5th Dan. This is not uncommon, nor is it uncommon for a westerner to visit Japan and convince an organization that he has a big association back home and be rewarded with an extra Dan grade for joining them.

There are many that produce a Japanese certificate that appears legitimate and signed by a Mr. Tanaka, Harada, Takeda or some such equivalent of Brown, Smith and Jones. They insist they were graded in Japan or met Mr. Suzuki in Melbourne and he happened to agree to set up a grading and promote them.

Is the situation better or worse in the world of eclectic arts? I don't know but it could not be any worse surely?

Regards,
Bob

PS I follow the DNB system

[Thomas Vince]

In case anyone was wondering in the IKKA we have both a yearly timeline requirement and a hourly requirement for all Shodan grades. The minimum time "at" the art is 5 years for a 1st Dan and 450 hours.

[Andy Murray]

I always wondered where the belt thing came in. Do you know if Chinese and Korean systems started using belts immediately after
the introduction by Jogoro Kano?

It would have been useful in assessing cross-style standards, if the arts that moved onto the Belt System had at least kept to the same colours. I mean a TKD red sash being the same standard as a Karate red sash etc.

I personally find the belt system useful for attracting and motivating students, as Bob has just said. I'd like to think the Belt becomes a 'by-product' by the end of the term though. Giving someone a reason to stop training and learning is a bad thing surely? If a Black Belt is your ultimate goal, where do you go from there?

Andy Murray

[Thomas Vince]

If balck belt is the goal where do you do from there!
In response, did you ever see Star Wars? The goal after becoming a Jedi Knight was to face the thing we fear most!
Thomas

[Andy Murray]

Oh my god!!!

Surely not.......!!!!!!!!!!

You don't mean........?????????

Melanie!

Aaaahhhhh

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
I always wondered where the belt thing came in. Do you know if Chinese and Korean systems started using belts immediately after
the introduction by Jogoro Kano?



Jigoro Kano introduced it into Judo, Gichin Funakoshi later applied it to his karate (Shotokan) other karate instructors followed later on. Some, like Miyagim refused to issue rank believing it would be bad for karate and his style didn't use them until after his death.

Tae Kwon Do came out of Shotokan and brought the belts with it from there.

Chinese styles never really adapted it fully, some schools did later on, but my guess would be very few, if any, in China use the system, but thats just a guess, I know little about martial arts in China.

[Thomas Vince]

Andy,
STOP IT! Don't pick on Melanie like that, are you implying that she is Darth Vader>??????? Breath like yu have asthma melanie here comes the millenium falcon!

[Thomas Vince]

Tae Kwon Do belt system comes from Shotokan, Please respond to that thread????.
Thomas

[Melanie]

Ahem...Lets stick to the thread guys!

(Thanks for sticking up for me Thomas :) Nice to know I am appreciated...)

Melanie
Lasers on the ready Andy...

[Kosokun]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
I always wondered where the belt thing came in. Do you know if Chinese and Korean systems started using belts immediately after
the introduction by Jogoro Kano?

A long time after that, I'm guessing. When I was a kid, none of the Chinese systems in my area had adopted the belt system. A couple (and only a couple of the commercial Chinese schools) had colored sashes. Now it's far more common, but it used to be only the Japanese schools.



It would have been useful in assessing cross-style standards, if the arts that moved onto the Belt System had at least kept to the same colours. I mean a TKD red sash being the same standard as a Karate red sash etc.


Can't even do that. The belt means what the person giving it means. Even within the same org, you see people of vastly different abilities getting the same rank. People are promoted for various reasons, so it's difficult to compare.


I personally find the belt system useful for attracting and motivating students, as Bob has just said. I'd like to think the Belt becomes a 'by-product' by the end of the term though. Giving someone a reason to stop training and learning is a bad thing surely? If a Black Belt is your ultimate goal, where do you go from there?

Andy Murray

The quitting after getting a black belt has become a problem for a lot of organizations. That's why some have instituted the rank of "Shodan Ho" (ostensibly) ;-)


Rob

[Andy Murray]

Could you translate that for all the non Japanese speaking folks please Kosokun. The Shodan is Black belt?. So what is 'Ho'?

[Kosokun]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
Could you translate that for all the non Japanese speaking folks please Kosokun. The Shodan is Black belt?. So what is 'Ho'?

I don't know the literal translation. Shodan is "first level".

But, the practical definition is "probationary black belt" . You need to test again for full-fledged Shodan, typically a year or so after your Shodan Ho test. If you stop training during between reaching shodan ho and your test for shodan, you lose the privilege of wearing the black belt. If you come back, you have to wear the brown belt again. So, it's essentially an Ikkyu (last step of Brown Belt before Black Belt) that gets to wear a Black Belt.


Rob

[Andy Murray]

So you have to test for your Black Belt twice?. One preliminary, and once for posterity. Has anyone you know ever passed Shodan Ho, and balked at Shodan?. Sorry if i've missed anything in your explanation. The whole thing is really 'alien' to me!

[Kosokun]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
So you have to test for your Black Belt twice?. One preliminary, and once for posterity. Has anyone you know ever passed Shodan Ho, and balked at Shodan?. Sorry if i've missed anything in your explanation. The whole thing is really 'alien' to me!

No problemo, Andy!

Yes, you have to test twice for your black belt. Yes, I know of many who have stopped at Shodan Ho. Happens for a bunch of reasons. Now these rules are reasonably flexible. The head of the school is omnipotent! ;-) In fact, I've got one in just that situation. She tested for Shodan Ho last summer, and if things go well for her, she'll be giving birth to her second child by Fall. So, when or if she finally comes back, I'll have no problem allowing her to wear her black belt. I think that stopping training to have a kid is a fine reason to stop training. ;-)

Rob

[Ozebob]

Originally posted by Thomas Vince
If balck belt is the goal where do you do from there!
In response, did you ever see Star Wars? The goal after becoming a Jedi Knight was to face the thing we fear most!
Thomas

Achieving a Black Belt in Karate-Do can be a real anti-climax for many students if they have been led to believe that the Black Belt is a degree of mastery of the art.

I am careful to point out to my students that is is an indication that they are a serius student of the art and now hold more responsibility for their own Martial Education.

As far as I can tell, in many schools the instruction virtually stops at the Shodan level, especially if the new black belt is seconded into teaching duties. There is a few pretend traditional karate groups who cannot teach past the Shodan level.

Syllabi reflect the development of the Dan members in an association. When you look at many sites on the web it becomes apparent that their training doesn't appear t go past the Shodan level.

Regards,
bob

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Ozebob

As far as I can tell, in many schools the instruction virtually stops at the Shodan level, especially if the new black belt is seconded into teaching duties. There is a few pretend traditional karate groups who cannot teach past the Shodan level.


Many add more kata does that count :)

But now your sticking a rank back into this, it seems concievable that a school might set the standard for shodan high enough that the student "knows" the whole system in a sense by the time they reach shodan. Training after shodan is done as independant study, perhaps overseen by the instructor, but not a form of direct teaching.

Perhaps saying many run out of material after 2 or 3 years with a dedicated and gifted student would have been more useful as shodan can be anything from 1 to 10+ years,


Syllabi reflect the development of the Dan members in an association. When you look at many sites on the web it becomes apparent that their training doesn't appear t go past the Shodan level.

Regards,
bob

This is something you can't make a judgement on simply by looking at the syllabus. If it is a switch to a more independent form of studying then this cannot easily be described in words, it will be based on individual students.

Perhaps up to shodan is a group study, everyone learns the same material, trains more or less the same and just basically does the same karate. After shodan is personalizing it and following your own interests.

All that said, you are right, I have seen many who completely stop learning at shodan, many in fact go backwords as they stop training and just teach lower belts, more advanced material is lost.

[Thomas Vince]

Does that mean that the public view a Black Belt in say TKD as being better than a Black Belt in Karate?

I don't think it is an issue of who is better, what happens is that when one school gives out belts quicker than another school, like a TKD school they will give a false sense of security to their student's. Most of these black belts have never even sparred with any type of contact, and have no real idea of what it would take to defend themselves in a real situation. Unfortunately what the public sees they don't undestand. The public may think that a TKD black belt is better than a BB in Karate and in some cases they may be right, but when it takes you 5 years for BB in Karate and 18 Months in some of these TKD studios who's really better prepared for the real thing?

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Thomas Vince
I don't think it is an issue of who is better, what happens is that when one school gives out belts quicker than another school, like a TKD school they will give a false sense of security to their student's.


So long as they tell you what the belt means and don't try to tell you your skills are something they are not this isn't an issue.


Most of these black belts have never even sparred with any type of contact, and have no real idea of what it would take to defend themselves in a real situation.


This is a seperate issue from time to rank.

[/B][/QUOTE]
when it takes you 5 years for BB in Karate and 18 Months in some of these TKD studios who's really better prepared for the real thing? [/B][/QUOTE]

The sort of training would play a bigger part. If the one school trains 5 years in basics, kata and point sparring, which most 'traditional' schools do, while the other trains 18 months NHB style fighting, full contact, very hard core. I'd bet on the 18 month guy in a real situation.

[Saz]

I had this drop into my inbox a while back... at first i thought it was one of my friends taking the whizz!

"Become a certified Kung Fu Blackbelt in five easy moves for just
$499.00 !!


Do you want the prestige of becoming a Certified Kung Fu Blackbelt??
Call (352) 307-3821.

Can you handle the respect that comes with the rank of Blackbelt??

IF YOU ANSWERED, "YES" TO BOTH OF THESE QUESTIONS, YOU ARE ONLY ONE
PHONE CALL AWAY FROM ACHIEVING THE RANK OF KUNG FU BLACKBELT. CALL
(352) 307-3821 !!

Hi, my name is Sifu Edwards, and I am a 3rd degree Blackbelt Sifu
Instructor. I have been a martial arts instructor my entire adult
life. I am a decorated combat Vietnam Veteran and I received a purple
heart for wounds received in combat. I currently own and operate a
professional bodyguard agency for wealthy clients outside Orlando,
Florida.

After years of study, I have developed a unique, easy to learn home
study program. All you need to perform are the following stances:

1. Crane
2. Leopard
3. Praying Mantis
4. Dragon
5. Serpent

After performing the five animal stances and your fees processed, you
will be awarded:

1. A FIRST DEGREE BLACKBELT in Kung Fu.
2. An official BLACKBELT CERTIFICATE with authentic seal with my
original signature and the original signatures of two other
Blackbelts.
3. A notarized certificate of authenticity.
4. A copy of my 3rd Degree BLACKBELT SIFU INSTRUCTOR CERTIFICATE,
signed by a World Champion Grand Master, authorizing me, to certify
you.

Simply purchase my course, learn five moves, and verify you can
perform these stances by emailing me (ON YOUR HONOR) that you have
completed the course and I WILL CERTIFY YOU AS FIRST DEGREE
BLACKBELT...

For more information call (352) 307-3821. We will answer any questions
you have personally; we also offer Kung Fu uniforms, Blackbelt sashes,
dragon patches and other martial arts supplies. Our web page will be
up soon. Hopefully when you call, we will have the site available for
you to view.

You are only one call away from being a Kung Fu Blackbelt..."

I like the "ON YOUR HONOR" bit best of all. You couldn't write comedy like that

[Thomas Vince]

KG,
you might want to post this on the "commercialisation" thread it really fits.

[Freeform]

HAHAHAHA, sorry, I couldn't help myself! Ooh, send it to me, I'll start saving today! ;)

God, could anyone actually take themselves seriously and do that?

Thanx

[Thomas Vince]

Dear Sirs,
All I want to know is can I get a discount rate in that Kung Fu class for my son Johnny in Orlando Florida, since he is only 5 years old and absolutely loves the Ninja Turtles. Donatello is his favorite and would be great if you could throw in a turtle suit. I think because he is a child he could probably only be required to show up and be fitted for the turtle suit, I would gladly split the airfare with you.
Thank You Sincerely,
Don't know a #uckin' thing about the real world,
Johhny's Mother!

PS
Do you have special classes for really stupid people, I mean like the kind who could'nt find there @ss if it weren't slung to their behind?
I'd be willin' to pay big bucks for that class!

# Oh you guys I have STOP I'm killin' myself here!!!!!!!
Thomas LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

[Melanie]

Hmmm - Interesting post Vince...

I personally died of laughter at the time of reading and this is being sent to you from the spirit world....

Woooooooooo!

:D

[Thomas Vince]

Quote from Andy:

"Could you translate that for all the non Japanese speaking folks please Kosokun.The Shodan is Black belt?. So what is 'Ho'?"

Andy your "sheltered." Around here a Ho is Ho and she cost's about 20 dollars an hour for a real cheap one. If you want to meat one I can't help ya! Hmmm, was the word "meat" in this case used inproperly? Ah just a little play on words for the slow ones? Come on everybody don't fall asleep now keep up with me!
Thomas

[Tseek Choi]

Black belt in 5 moves!
I also received this email a few months ago.
Crazy stuff!!!!

With regard to black belt/sash comparisons.

Many years ago I was starting a kung fu class as a brown sash. I had been training for nearly eight years, and was fairly confident of my skills.

I had a couple of guys turn up who were not impressed with my grade.
One said "My friend does TKD, and he got his BB in less than 3 years, therefore you can't be very good!"
I explained to him that I was in fact a secret 9th Degree black belt, but I didn't want to scare people!
He said "Really! wow"
I then suggested to him that he goes and trains with his friend.

As stated before the belt/sash is only relevant within the group itself, not even within the style can they be truly compared.

Lau Gar kung fu is a good example of this.
I know green and yellow sashs that are technically far superior to many brown/black sashes.

Also many clubs teach a modern approach with alot of competition training, while others teach in a very traditional way.

As someone once said to me when I commented on the technique of a 3rd degree, "Don't look at the sash, look at the quality of the technique".

It took me ten years to gain my Black sash, but to be honest it means nothing to anyone bar those who know me.

The sash is purely an indication that the student has practiced some techniques and forms to a basic satisfactorily level. It says nothing about how this training took place or what the level of understanding is.

I honestly believe that I could take a beginner to black sash within 12 months in Lau Gar.
However I would have only taught them the moves of the forms, much like a dance, they would have no understanding of the real kung fu, and would have no experience of power development or intent.

Colin............

[Thomas Vince]

Which one were you laughing at? The post using the quote from Andy, or the dear sirs letter?
Da! I am just completely confused here, by the way how is that island your living on doing anyway? Like what's it like living on an island? Does the island really have a soul? Can it feel? It must really suck living somewhere that you can only get to in a boat or a plane. Just think back 1000 years ago you could only paddle there! I guess that would hjave it advantages to, lot's of privacy. Do you think the island get's lonely?
Oh, oh I know stick to thread. BYe.\
Thomas

[Melanie]

Originally posted by Thomas Vince
Which one were you laughing at? The post using the quote from Andy, or the dear sirs letter?

Both :)

Da! I am just completely confused here, by the way how is that island your living on doing anyway? Like what's it like living on an island? Does the island really have a soul? Can it feel? It must really suck living somewhere that you can only get to in a boat or a plane. Just think back 1000 years ago you could only paddle there! I guess that would hjave it advantages to, lot's of privacy. Do you think the island get's lonely?

Er...yeah, right...

Oh, oh I know stick to thread. BYe.\

Please! :D (Oh dear...)

Thomas

[Freeform]

Thomas, have you been drinking? ;)

[Thomas Vince]

I never stopped!??? And by the way I am not as think as you drunk I am. Have a great day everyone!!!

[Thomas Vince]

Cooler,
Just thought I should tell that Freeform is implying that I may not be in capacity of my own mind. You see there is one problem with that. I lost a long time ago and I don't know where I put it!
Make him STOP!!!!!

[Andy Murray]

Hey TV,

Thomas I'll teach you a block,
To stop all da kicks in da head.
It'll help you stay pretty, and even quite witty,
You might even stick to the thread!

[Thomas Vince]

OKAY< OKAY< OKAY, OKAY!:rolleyes: :p :D

[Andy Murray]

I honestly believe that I could take a beginner to black sash within 12 months in Lau Gar.

However I would have only taught them the moves of the forms, much like a dance, they would have no understanding of the real kung fu, and would have no experience of power development or intent.

Surely Colin, you wouldn't pass a student for Black Sash, if they had no understanding of the syllabus, just an ability to repeat movement?

Can you really repeat a movement without understanding it's purpose?

You have made some good points, but please clarify your meaning here.

Andy

[Freeform]

I'm sorry Thomas I didn't know you practiced Kung Fu (of the Drunken boxing variety!).

Anyway, to the point at hand. If you had someones undivided attention for 24/7 for an entire year, why not. Your average karateka who trains 2/3 times a week will earn his shodan in 3-4 years. However, my personal belief is that the belt system has become cheapened by commercialism.... oh, hold on, wrong thread.

[Joseki]

It can take a life time (hope not though) but with ju jitsu its between 4 to 5 years, some get it sooner some later, lucky for me i or Kancho get the say if they pass or not in are style

[Tseek Choi]

"Surely Colin, you wouldn't pass a student for Black Sash, if they had no understanding of the syllabus, just an ability to repeat movement? "

You're right Andy I wouldn't let anyone go for Black sash after 12 months.
I suppose what i'm saying is that if a person was taught just the forms much like a set of dance moves, then they could easily learn the sequence of say 7 forms within 12 months. Sufficient to fool most grading panels.

"Can you really repeat a movement without understanding it's purpose? "

All I have to say to this is...Just take a look at 90% of TaiChi practitioners, who perform their forms without any idea as to the application of technique.

Or many within our own style that learn the forms just for the grade, but never learn any application!

The length of time is realitive to each individual. We have a young guy (17) who is only a blue sash, but his basic technique is superb! Much better than a couple of yellows I know!
I've already spoken to him with regards to additional training, as when you find a student with real potential they should be nurtured.
He attends a lesson, then actually goes home and practices on his own!

TC.......

[Thomas Vince]

Your average karateka who trains 2/3 times a week will earn his shodan in 3-4 years. However, my personal belief is that the belt system has become cheapened by commercialism.... oh, hold on, wrong thread. [/B]

I think that the individual art needs to be understood, for example: Jhoon Rhee a very prominent Tae Kwon Do instructor and friend of my instructor Ed Parker ran many tourns together. Jhoon Rhee's Tae Kwon Do has a simplistic philosophy, it teaches a dozen maybe even a half dozen movements within it's basics and uses only those basics making them stronger and faster and so on. In this case I could see someone talented and athletic getting his BB in 16 months because the level of requirements are dramitically less than other styles, but does that make this TKD less of an art?
Thomas

[hongkongfuey]

does that make this TKD less of an art

Absolutly not. In my opinion, simplification is the key to Martial Arts, and someone who has trained 5 techniques solidly for the same period as someone who has trained 30 techniques will be far more 'effective' in those techniques.

It reminds me of a story (which I can only vaguely remember, so bear with me!) of a Martial Arts master walking with one of his students through a park in China. They see many martial artists practicing different techniques and Forms. One man stands out, as he is practicing only one technique over and over again. When they return from their walk an hour later, he is still practicing the same technique.

The Master turns to the student, and asks for his opinion on this man.

"Master, the man only knows one technique. He cannot be a good martial artist".

"But, my student - would you want to get hit by it?"

[Thomas Vince]

HKF,
I agree with you, but give some thought if you will to the wide range of attack types we can receive; Grabs, Pushes, Punches, Kicks, Locks, Chokes, Holds and Weapons. Given this idea of understanding the different types of attacks and the variables of these attacks like circling motions, diagonal motions ect.. you get my meaning how would only one technique help this student. I follow the analogy of the good practitioner and the Taoists I think said it best!
"When the best student hears of the way he practices it diligently, When the average student hears of the way he practices every now and then and When the worst student hears of the way he laughs out loud. If he did not laugh out loud it be unworthy of being the way."

[Thomas Vince]

How much training should each of us receive? Should it be a matter of hours at the art, I mean even doctors are required to have hours in clinical practice why not martial artists? And shouldn't the final test be how well they handle themselves against others in realistic situations?

[Thomas Vince]

Should each student have a sort residency? Should the real test be how they handle the realistic nature of an attack and how would set that up? Doctors are required so many hours of clinical experience in the field, what about the martial artist? Should they also undergo this type of scrutiny?

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Thomas Vince
Should each student have a sort residency? Should the real test be how they handle the realistic nature of an attack and how would set that up? Doctors are required so many hours of clinical experience in the field, what about the martial artist? Should they also undergo this type of scrutiny?

I think we'd run into legal problems :D

Although I do remember hearing, or reading something from one High ranking and well respected Okinawan along the lines of this;

If someone lives along time they get a high rank. There still being alive proves that their karate is good. Not referring to fighting, but to maintaining health.

So there it is, the real test is whether your still on the dojo floor able to train at 90.

[hongkongfuey]

Should the real test be how they handle the realistic nature of an attack and how would set that up?

I think it all depends on our definition of Martial Arts, and what the primary purpose of study is. Some examples might be :

A sport Martial Art should measure it's effectiveness by the tournament rankings of its instructors and students.

Tai Chi could measure the general health and well being of it's students (how they could do this, is rather more difficulty)

An art emphasising traditional training might stress the lineage of it's chief instructor.

An art geared towards streetfighting should maybe test itself in the manner in which you suggest, but I agree that legal problems would make this difficult.

Perhaps 'role play' style scenarios featuring drunken 'tooled up' attackers would be one way of addressing this. Attackers would be given a briefing of the situation and their type of personality and would have to respond according to the way the student approached the situation (confrontational, diffusing etc). OK, so you couldnt use any lethal force, but at least could see how you would handle a certain situation. Just a thought - never seen this tried in practice.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

If you want to see that type of role-play in practice come along to some of our senior classes, not a common drill but we usually do it quite regularly.

[Thomas Vince]

How much of the training would require a "toughening" up or a "courage" stage of the training, and when would you know if the student was tough or had the courage to uphold the Black Belt.
Thomas

[hongkongfuey]

On the subject of toughness - yes this is important. I used to train at one club where they had 2 lines of students facing each other and 1 student had to run up and back down the line whilst the rest of the class tried (and did) to hit them. Continuous sparring is also good for toughening up in my opinion.

On your earlier point :

I agree with you, but give some thought if you will to the wide range of attack types we can receive; Grabs, Pushes, Punches, Kicks, Locks, Chokes, Holds and Weapons. Given this idea of understanding the different types of attacks and the variables of these attacks like circling motions, diagonal motions ect.. you get my meaning how would only one technique help this student. I follow the analogy of the good practitioner and the Taoists I think said it best!

I subscribe to some degree to the 'hit first and dont get hit mentality'. If your techniques are fast and highly effective then you remove the need to deal with every scenario in a large proportion (admitidly not all) cases. In this way you can train someone to be a decent fighter in a short time. To be a master of the arts, you do indeed need to be able to deal with every scenario.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Surely that would suggest that there are no masters, since it is physically impossible to be able to deal with every situation, or rather to be taught how to deal with each exact situation. Maybe the masters are the ones who know how to adapt what they do know to every situation.

[Andrew Green]

"Master" is just a bad word to use, means different things to different people.

Servants have masters

universities give masters degrees

niether of these sorts of masters know everything.

[Thomas Vince]

When I speak of a Master that person would represent many things,I dont think it is possible that a master of martial Arts can be acheived in 12 months. I took the types of basic attacks using pushing, pulls, punches, locks holds and weapons I easiy create 72 tecniques to deal with these variables in attacks. With this knowledge it would take24 months with my program.That the term master cannot desrcibe what this student has accomplished over the time period
The tern Master would be used loosely to describe this student.
Thomas:woo:

[Burple]

If you ish a Mashter den hoo teechesh you?

Or ash you lerned everyfink alweddy?

Fanksh

Burple

[Thomas Vince]

I believe that Master is a good term! The problem is just like any other title it is subject to abuse. This is nothing new, even in the ancients time there were abuses of power and title, even the Shaolin, or some of them abused the power.
I believe that to become a Master, you first must become a Master of yourself, to be a Master is to be a Martial Artist. Just like a fine painter, a rocket scientists, a race car driver, or other professionals in thier field. You may even find that the beleif systems of these professionals are aligned in interesting ways.
I do not beleive that the term "Master" was intended to mean that this person everything, it should stand to reason that this person would be the best source to seek out if you had a question regarding what it is they master.
Thomas

[Thomas Vince]

If you ish a Mashter den hoo teechesh you?

The most important lesson that i have learned in my twenty years of MA's is that you learn more when you teach. Learning never stops if have embraced the art that you are in. I have no doubt that i am Master at what I do, but I have so much more to learn, and at this point in my life and my training I am capable of teaching my self, arent you?
Thomas

[Freeform]

Does that mean that for every school or style there should only be one master, a figurehead who is in charge?

Thanx

[LilBunnyRabbit]

As far as I know there's only one martial art that doesn't have a single figurehead, correct me if I'm wrong. That one martial art is Dynamic Self Defence, a (hopefully soon extinct) break away from Choi Kwang Do.

[Thomas Vince]

A figurehead?
I think it is important that each system have someone that can make decisions regarding the art that are definitive and almost "written in Stone" so to say. However a Master would see to it that the students could pave their way to the mastery of the arts and would elect the masters based upon a council of members that were mutually respected by each other and the arts community. By doing this the art may progress and develop. What do you think a master should leave to the student, even if his or her training is short?

[Freeform]

Kinda like a Jedi Council then ;)

I like that idea, in my Scottish Tai Jitsu, wheever there is a big decision to be made, it usually goes to a vote of all the black belts.

Thanx

[Thomas Vince]

Keeping in mind that you are progressing this student quickly, what would be some factors that would let you know you had to slow down a little bit? And what type of strenghts would you get the student to focus on?
Thomas

[Thomas Vince]

Total 12 months only.
What you add or subtract from the master list
in order to imporove your fighter and why.

Balance and strength training. 1 month
Hand eye coordination training. 1 month
Parry and strike training and condition. 2 month
Kicking conditioning and training 1 month
Combinations strike kick. 1 month
Combo Block, strike 1 month
Combo Block Kick 1 month
Combo Block kick, strike. 1 month
Combinations Block ,Kick, Perry, Strike 1 month
Combo's Block, Perry, strike, kick, chop 1 month
Chop, strike, punch, kick 1 month
Thomas

Total months : 12

PS: Your lookin to train the best fighter you can in 12 months, classes 6 days a week for 6 hours.

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Thomas Vince
Total 12 months only.
What you add or subtract from the master list
in order to imporove your fighter and why.



Open tournament, WTF, WKF, Kickboxing, Muay Thai, Submission Wrestling, Weapons, Judo, Street, Mixed, NHB, etc.

What sort of fighter are you looking to train?

[waya]

hmmmmmmm, How often and how long each training day does the training last?

Rob

[Thomas Vince]

6 hour class 6 days a week.

[waya]

OK, I would remove the majority of the chops (not all but nearly so) I would add wrist locks and takesdowns, mostly for breaking and disabling an opponent. Add impact conditioning to better handle taking hits, and alot of mental conditioning and awareness training. Keep in mind that to me this would be for a combat fighter instead of a ring fighter.

Rob

[Thomas Vince]

After talking with Waya we make the following changes to our 12 month program:

Balance, strength and impact training and conditioning 2 month.
Hand eye coordination training 1 month
Parry and strike (open and closed hand) training 2 months
kick conditioning and training 1 month
Combo Block strike 1 month
Combo Block kick 1 month
Combo Block , kick, strike 1 month
Combo Perry, strike , kick,
limited chops 1 month
Wrist locks and takedowns 2 month

We have a 12 month program and more improvements could be made. Add your ideas to this Training for the Combat fighter.

[Freeform]

After an initial starter program (about 6 weeks), I'd try and teach all of the above concurrently, which would allow for a better understanding of flowing between ranges, instead of a modular approach.

Thanx

[Thomas Vince]

What would you include in your six week Program?

[Freeform]

It would mostly be a period of conditioning, starting off with basic posture and co-ordination, mostly boxer style training. Teach primary striking points, a few low level kicks (shins and knees) and a few entering techniques (the good ones that give you a variety of options). Basically a framework to work on and a little insight of things to come. Emphasis would be on streching, cv and some weight work.

Thanx

[Thomas Vince]

So then do you agree that very basic weapons should be taught.

Coordination and Balance

Vertical Punch, Upper cut Punch
Hammering Punch

Basic Blocks both hard and soft.

Theory and Knowledge of striking points and targets.

Basic low kicks.

Arm Bars and Wrist Locks

These six major catagories I agree are necessary and each can me learned in addition to, or simultaneously with each other. Are there any other catagories you would add to this for the 12 months training period? What about the ability to use pressure points or healing techniques for his injuries?

Thomas

[Freeform]

If use olny got 12 months I wouldn't put alot of emphasis on pressure points, hell I'm only really starting to learn them know and I know for a fact that I can't effectively strike them ,but using them whilst grappling is easier, so I'd make the student aware of them but not overly so.

The same goes for healing methods, basic first aid and common sense (put ice on it man!).

Thanx

[Thomas Vince]

Coordination and Balance

Vertical Punch, Upper cut Punch
Hammering Punch

Basic Blocks both hard and soft.

Theory and Knowledge of striking points and targets.

Basic low kicks.

Arm Bars and Wrist Locks

Body manuevers : rolling, switching, slipping, bobbing, weaving, twirling.

That it so far?
If so now we have to put them in order of learning.

I think that would do it.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

I'd say to start out with the most basic blocks, maybe with some dodging mixed in. After all, all the training in the world isn't any good if you can't avoid being hit by their first punch.

[Freeform]

Dodge or hit?

Pre-empt or react?

Could start a new thread on this topic.

Thanx

[Thomas Vince]

Coordination and Balance

Vertical Punch, Upper cut Punch
Hammering Punch

Basic Blocks both hard and soft.

Theory and Knowledge of striking points and targets.

Basic low kicks.

Arm Bars and Wrist Locks

Body manuevers : rolling, switching, slipping, bobbing, weaving, twirling.


That should do it for a good 12 month program.

[Freeform]

Add a couple of bear hug/head chancery escapes and I could go with that.

Thanx

[Silver_no2]

FreeForm - I would like you to train me to be your ultimate fighter!!!!

There was loads that I had to say on this thread but as it has taken me the best part of an hour (spread over a couple of days) to read it, I've forgotten most of it!

Personally I think that the time taken to achieve a blackbelt is irrelevant. The individual concerned will know whether it is worth anything. I don't feel that putting a set number of hours/years is particularly useful as people learn at completely different speeds.

I don't see anything wrong with someone having a grading before they move to another level as it means that they are put under a little bit of pressure, which is important. The fact of the matter is that the instructor would not, I hope, put someone forward for a grading unless he believed that they were more than capable of passing it.

What I do object to is people having to do a grading when they do not feel that they are ready for it yet. While the sensei/sifu/master knows whether a student is technically ready to move up a level the student is NOT ready to move on if they do not BELIEVE that they are ready to move on.

[Thomas Vince]

Silver,
I agree totally. Many times I have had instructors that I know who are teaching what is called American Karate sit down and estimate their earnings on testing income with the idea that everyone is tested in 3 months intervals and everyone will be graded and promoted for the dollar. The object of this thread was to address the idea of someone getting a Black Belt in 12 months time was it possible. Thank you so much for reading the whole thing, I think you should get a Dan just for that !!!!!
Thomas
Any ideas of what should be added to our list if you only had 12 months?

[Thomas Vince]

Well Cooler,
I think this thread and has gone on for awhile when we have people reading for two hours to catch up on it I think I might want to close it down, what do you think?
Thomas
:o :D :p

[Andy Murray]

What have we all learned from the thread?

[Thomas Vince]

Well Andy,
hopefully we have learned that time in and proficiency of the art is a subjective form of reasoning, and that each of us learn martial arts for a different reasons.

[Cooler]

You started a thread Thomas and created a monster. :D

Cooler

[Thomas Vince]

Cooler...

Yeah, but it was a good Monster!:)

[Cooler]

I will agree with you there Thomas. :)

Cooler

[KickChick]

Hey this thread is still open!

So I'll add some fuel to the fire already burning (well, some smouldering embers that is)...with this one.


Earn your Black Belt from Home (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3605883005&category=16044)

Beware of amira10 the winning bidder!:)

[Brad Ellin]

Yikes! I can not beleive that anyone would be willing to pay $51.00, and expect to really learn something. Dang, I am in the wrong business.

[Sonshu]

I guess from an instructors view - you know.

When I get my first student to the point of me thinking wow, they look stong in there techniques.

And I KNOW they can look after themselves, right temperment etc.

It depends on the time they spend training. Somewhere around 3-5 years, this if for it to all be off pat and they have got the sylibus down to a natural movement. Still the sylibus will help them and then they are ready to go up in Dan grade. The dan grade is not the end to me = its the higher levels.

Also it depends on other styles they have done - time should not be a MAJOR contributing factor.

SONSHU

[bob]

how about a ninety day program?

[BlackRaven]

Take a look at the negative feedback. When people have complained about what they have received, he has told them to do it properly. Te guy just keeps selling the same/similar products on ebay.

[Guitarboy1212]

I don't agree with time limits or belt ranks. Belt ranks were made up so that way poeple who joined karate would feel like they accomplished something, and keep doing it. Originally there were no belt ranks, and it is not how long someone does something it how hard.

[Sonshu]

It is awarded fine.

Problem is there are many great Gree belts and many naff Black belts in most system.

The grading system is only as good as the instructor who awards it.

It should be a good measuring stick and also a nice tool to give people somthing as a reward and a target to aim to.

Still many schools have sub standard grade students. Always pleased to see a school where the students are a reflection of the grade they wear.

SONSHU

[Greg-VT]

A little, maybe boring, story of mine on grading:

A long, long time ago, I started karate. This was the first martial arts training I had (besides my uncle, who was a qualified instructier). Anyway, on the third week I went, we had these punching exercises, where we would punch each others hands with a partner. My partner was a 6-8 year old who had achieved an orange belt (now I don't know what rank this, so if anyone can fill me in...).

This kid could'nt punch his way out of a paper bag. Anything he threw barely hit my hands, he was all over the place. And when he did make a connection, I would'nt have known it, if it were not for a goofy look on his face as if he achieved something.

Five minutes into exerices, the instructer came over and checked us out on how we were going (kid still waveing his hands about trying to hit my hands). He said "good", nodding his head. The kids face lit up, he was so proud of himself. But still, he was doing exactly the same thing, except for the fact that he may have picked his pace up a little bit.

I called back the instructer, and asked him if the boy is doing this right. He nodded, and winked.

The end of the lesson I walk out (as most people do....) and did'nt come back. Untill a few weeks ago, I had'nt done any martial arts for YEARS because of this pathetic Idea...

Grade students do keep them coming back, so they don't lose interest. If it looks like they are thinking of quitting, give them the next belt rank. Then they stay, and I get more money.

Which is basically what I thought was the reason for this young gun to have this belt. I thought is really was patchetic, why do it if it does'nt matter? I mean even if orange belt is the next after white (I don't know if it is or not), you should at least be able to basically punch before moving on, right?

These thoughts of mine occured MANY years ago, I was also a 'kid', so maybe I got the wrong idea, but, It still put me off.

[pgm316]

Although VT, many schools will have a different belt system for the kids. After all what can you expect from a 6-8 year old? I'd say its ok to use belts as motivation in that case, isn't that what they were originally for?

I'd say it should measure a mix of a few things.
1, fighting ability
2, knowledge of that style

Its got to be a combination fo these two, one wothout the other would not mean a great deal.

3, This is more complex; A measure of the effort the student has put in, and how much they have improved from whatever standard they started from.

Theres got to be a fair bit of flexibility in the belt system, still prefer not to have one! Its arguable whether they really help MA's or not....

[Greg-VT]

I just got a PM, and thought I'd post my reply here, to add a bit... and to clear a little up...


The point I was trying to make was the negitive effects on grading someone who has not technecally reached anywhere near that rank. And the bad rep' this gives to beginners in martial arts on other instructers. You see? It put me off. Seeing as 'it's not worth it'. And as per topic (~), this is a problem with the belt ranking system... whats the point of it, if it does'nt work?

I'd better point out, that with this post I was not having a go at the 6-8 year old trying to learn, but the instructer who seemed to be (at the time) 'cheating'

...done


Pgm316

Yeah I know a couple of schools like this, with a child classes, get there rank high and then move on to the more advanced classes. I don't see a problem with this, I think it's great. They ley down a basic understanding that can help heaps.

Motivation is -one- reason to up a grading. But I don't think someone should get a rank up for not bothering to put in an effort. I was also very young at this time, just a few years older then him. So if there was a child ranking system, I did'nt know about it, and why didn't I?

I see motivation as a reason, but only when there is at least something else to warrent. The boy was waving him arms around like a broken windmill.

1, Fighting Ablility
By what I have descibed, can you see any fighting ability?

2, Knowledge Of The Style
There didn't appear to be any.

As said in the PM relpy, was not having a go at the 6-8 year old, but the instructer who failed to use the belt ranking system correctly. At the time, this appeared to me as away to keep one more in the class longer, to get a little more cash.

Yea, flexability for sure. No-one can be perfect, but there still should be something.

I actually taken no interest in styles that use belt ranking now, another negitive effect belt ranking has on Martial Arts ;)

Remember, this are my thoughts, and I was only 9 or 11 years old at the time, so they may be a little warped :)

[pgm316]

Sounds like it was a case of turn up and buy a new belt! ;)

It doesn't worry me too much with the kids though as long as it is a seperate belt system for them, what you don't want is a 10 year old black belt......

Maybe he didn't deserve the belt, but if it kept him there is it a bad thing?

If you don't like belts, why worry? Just use them as motivation for the kids and little else.

But I do agree with you VT on the whole, they can be a farce and also a distraction from concentrating soley on training for ability.

[Sonshu]

I like to earn a belt every now and again perticuarly in other arts. When I go to other schools people often say to me (in tracksuit bottems and a T shirt. Are you a black belt?

Or how come you are so good do you go to another club. It is nice to know that what I do cross's over so well.

However there are many schools that offer out poor grades to people and this is the reason certain styles get a grilling for it.

Mainly concearn yourself with yourself????

I know there are bad dan grade people - however I am pleased to know about the excellent red, blue and green belts who are about?

Many schools worry about paying the rent etc, leave em to it?

SONSHU

[Greg-VT]

Originally posted by pgm316
Sounds like it was a case of turn up and buy a new belt! ;)

It doesn't worry me too much with the kids though as long as it is a seperate belt system for them, what you don't want is a 10 year old black belt......



Hehehe, reminds back in year (grade) 3 of primary school... whenever there was a confrontation in the school yard, you just knew that fists are going to fly, and someones going home with a bloody nose and teary face. Then this always happens...

*enter offensive language here
"Yeah? Well I’m a Black Belt!!"
"Yeah!! SO!!! I"M A SUPER BLACK BELT!!!"
*all parties turn and walk away

lol, makes me chuckle :)

[Kwan Jang]

-As an instructor, the quality of your students is the quality of your product. However, if you are a true educator of the arts, it's vital that you can retain and motivate your students to bring out their potential. I'm hearing a lot of the old "weed out the wimps' Philosophy from many here. Any decent instructor can take an extremely motivated, already physically and mentally tough and athletically gifted student and make a champion out of them. The mark of an excellent martial arts educator is to take that slow, fat, lazy person who has very little self-esteem and turn them into a black belt that even the most hard-core "old school" instructors would be proud to claim as their own when the process is complete.(Iknow, it's a life-long process, but in this case I'm referring to 1st dan.) The real trick is to be able to do this on a consistant basis with many students and not just a few. A belt system is an excellent tool for acomplishing this as both a means for organizing your cirriculum, for short and long term goals for the students, and for helping them to measure their progress. -As far as this posts original topic: modern arnis advances their students to 1st black in about a year. Muay thai has a simple enough cirriculum that a year is not out of the question if the instructor wanted to incorperate a belt system to it. Another thing to remember is that in the 1960's as a U.S.Marine stationed in Okinawa, Joe Lewis earned his first dan in under a year. Months later, when he returned to the States, he won both the fighting and forms grandchampionship at the first tournament that he entered. This was S. Henry Cho's U.S. Championships; one of the biggest tournaments of the time period and he beat all the favorites. Within two years of this, Bruce Lee called Lewis, in print, "the greatest fighter of all time"(Bruce included himself in this). Also, (motivational speaker/success coach) Tony Robbins earned his 1st dan under Jhoon Rhee in less than a year, though Robbins specialty is finding the fastest and most efficient ways of learning and trimming down the process. He also had GM Rhee as his personal trainer on the road with him. He was tested by an independent board of masters, so the rank is legit. Obviously ist dan in a year is possible. The real question is it the best thing for the students and for the art? I don't believe it is. BTW-I've been told by him that Lewis averaged 8 hrs./day of training to achieve his black belt in such a short period of time. Also Robbins said in an interview that if he were to do it over, he'd have taken his time to digest things better and not to have pushed the injuries so much. With my students, it's an average of four years to 1st dan, because that is how long it takes the vast majority of hard working, but untrained individuals to internalize our cirriculum. I have had many instructors who looked over our cirriculum tell us we're nuts to push our students so hard. We just reply with this analogy. You can get your associates degree from the local community college or you can get your Bach. degree from Harvard. They are both college degrees. What you want and what you are willing to work for is up to you.

[Raiden]

I like the way my current school is setup. There is no way you could earn a black belt at my school in a year or 3 years for that matter. My coach has already stated he won't give one out unless you've earned it. I like the belt system if done properly. I know what everyone means though, as when I took TKD in El Paso, they were practically giving away belts. All you had to do was show up to class, and you were pretty much guranteed to move up. In a year you could fly through 3 or four belts. At my current school of BJJ, you really have to earn each belt. I want to be one of those that if I do manage to get a black belt in BJJ, I can say I earned it, and that the belt is an accurate meter of my skill level.