Minimun force needed

[ninjas-r-us]

this is a new law passed in my area. If a fight ensues you must use the minimum amount of force nessecary....how can I judge this? i know not to use an arm break or a neck strike or somthing powerful as this. But does any one have any tips...now i dont want to go he hits me i hit him...that would end porly on my end

[Pacificshore]

Think of it this way, if you were in a situation where you have successfully defended yourself, and you continued to pound on the other person, then you've probably exceeded the "minimum" amount of force necessary.

[nzric]

Any strike has the potential for a lot of damage (just look at the stats of people punched once in the playground/pub parking lot, fall down the wrong way, hit their head and die).

If you do Martial Arts you're opening yourself up to more liability as it's probably expected that you have a good idea of how much damage a particular strike can do. If he has cuts/broken bones and you don't, you'll probably be treated as the instigator of violence most of the time, unless you've got a convention of nuns and security camera footage as witnesses.

If you're worried about the legal implications, you're probably doing it wrong. Err on the side of caution. If you are in a real confrontation (e.g. mugging down a dark alley) your first motivation should be to protect yourself. The legal implications for hurting them is second.

On the other hand, if it's just a drunk in a bar, you should use enough force to protect yourself/others to enable you to run/get out. This is where locks/restraints would be a lot better (from a legal pov) than strikes.

[Funky Phantom]

this is a new law passed in my area. If a fight ensues you must use the minimum amount of force nessecary....how can I judge this? i know not to use an arm break or a neck strike or somthing powerful as this. But does any one have any tips...now i dont want to go he hits me i hit him...that would end porly on my end
My tip would be to make your own judgement as to what you have to do to defend yourself and make sure you get out of there sharpish after the event, so as to avoid any disagreement with the police as to whether the force you used was minimal or otherwise...

[nzric]

My tip would be to make your own judgement as to what you have to do to defend yourself and make sure you get out of there sharpish after the event, so as to avoid any disagreement with the police as to whether the force you used was minimal or otherwise...
But then again fleeing the scene could be seen as an implication of guilt... if you're caught, that is.

If you hurt the person really badly (i.e. they need immediate medical attention), you MUST call the police/ambulance. You don't have to stay down the dark alleyway and give mouth-to-mouth to the drughead freak who attacked you, but you should get to safety and call for help from the nearest available phone (but not necessarily give your own details).

It's still a person, in that situation they are now the victim, and the police have a duty to investigate/prosecute any crime, especially serious assault.

[mystererae]

I'm curious, is the idea of the 'minimum amount of force necessary' flexible in the sense that if a small, thirteen year old girl with some martial arts training jabbed a man in the eye and blinded him, she'd be let off -- but if a six-foot, 200-pound man with training, or even no training, did the same, he might be found guilty of using excessive force? [in a situation such as a mugging, or some sort of fight, both against an opponent of let's say 5'8 and 140 pounds...]

[nzric]

Unfortunately, that's probably the truth.

Remember, if it reaches the courts, the crim will probably have a good lawyer whose sole job is to make you seem like an out of control lunatic. If they know you've studied Karate for 8 years, they'll use that as a weapon - either "oooh, he has a fixation with violence" or "he is a karate master, he should know how to handle himself without using excessive violence". See, it's bad either way they use it.

Put it this way. A guy comes up to a small, young woman with little MA training, he's holding a knife and it's at night down an alley. She screams and fights him, arms flailing everywhere - by sheer luck she pushes him to the ground and twists on his arm so that it breaks - causing permanent nerve/tendon damage.

On the other hand - a tall, heavily built guy with a black belt is attacked by the same mugger. He uses his MA training to hammer the mugger with 5 blows to the head - essentially knocking him out on his feet. But to finish off, he expertly grabs the guy's arm and breaks it - causing permanent nerve/tendon damage.

Yeah, the judge is going to be more understanding toward the woman.

It may be unfair but it's reality. If you're male, you're more likely to get prosecuted for using excessive force. If you do martial arts you should be extra careful, and if you're 6'8", heavily built and with a shaved head, you'd better be sure to get your suit drycleaned before you step into the court.

[Funky Phantom]

But then again fleeing the scene could be seen as an implication of guilt... if you're caught, that is.

If you hurt the person really badly (i.e. they need immediate medical attention), you MUST call the police/ambulance. You don't have to stay down the dark alleyway and give mouth-to-mouth to the drughead freak who attacked you, but you should get to safety and call for help from the nearest available phone (but not necessarily give your own details).

It's still a person, in that situation they are now the victim, and the police have a duty to investigate/prosecute any crime, especially serious assault.
Bear in mind that when I say use your judgement I do still mean that you should attempt to minimise damage, but not at the expense of your safety, so you shouldn't get stuck in a situation where you've really beaten the stuffing out of your attacker, since I don't think that could really be justified as minimal force by anyone...

Obviously if you seem to have inflicted excessive damage in the heat of the moment and they are in a bad way or unconcious, you should definitely as you suggested call an ambulance, but probably from a phone box so you can't be traced and don't give details so you remain anonymous.

In my opinion, getting out of there fast after the event is pretty fair if you've perhaps done more than you should, as it was the attacker that originally instigated the violence, but your suggestions were very sound. As for the police, maybe I'm just cynical, but the thought of the police actually being there any time soon after a crime taking place seems somewhat alien to me...

[Funky Phantom]

It may be unfair but it's reality. If you're male, you're more likely to get prosecuted for using excessive force. If you do martial arts you should be extra careful, and if you're 6'8", heavily built and with a shaved head, you'd better be sure to get your suit drycleaned before you step into the court.
A very unfortuante but very realistic assessment of the realities of life. One man's (or should that be girls\womans?) self-defence is another mans GBH and jail-term.

[ninjas-r-us]

lol no, im 5'5 160 and a bit pudgy im no mucel man

[Fish Of Doom]

my opinion of minimal force is as follows, he comes at me empty handed: i punch him until he passes out or cannot fight, then i call the police.

he comes at me with a weapon: i try to break his arm(s), so he cannot use his weapon(s) , then i call an ambulance and the police(but nothing more than break his arms, and not violently either, just disconnect the two bones of the elbow)

Fish of Doom

EDIT: just noted a typo in the title, it says "minimun"

[Dusty Larson]

I think this new law is unfair, because it's extremely difficult to define "minimum force" with even an experienced practitioner let alone a complete newbie only trying to save his life.

Where the heck do you live?

[Fish Of Doom]

i wonder if they would accuse you of exceeding minimum force if you beat up the countries worst known killer and broke all of his bones.

[nzric]

I don't know if Henry Kissinger would put up much of a fight from a MA pov :D

...oops! :eek: :rolleyes:

[Jimmy Jitsu]

I believe what the law here is trying to say is that you can only use force until there is no physical endangerment to you. Lets say you get in a bar fight. You are entitled to defend yourself but just say you hit the guy down with one punch and he was knocked out, you could not therefore stomp on his head, break a limb or strangle him. You have rendered the person in a position where they are no longer a threat to you. Or lets say you get a lock on his arm and he submits you cannot then go on an break the arm. Alternativey if he attacks you unarmed but you have a knife and stab the offender you have used excessive force. As soon as you have taken any sort of self-defence or MA training even one day the law sees your body as being a weapon. So if you do get into a self-defence situation and give the person a good thrashing keep mum about being a 10th Dan in Taebo!

[Kyorishi]

this is a new law passed in my area. If a fight ensues you must use the minimum amount of force nessecary....how can I judge this? i know not to use an arm break or a neck strike or somthing powerful as this. But does any one have any tips...now i dont want to go he hits me i hit him...that would end porly on my end

This is a bunch of crap. It sounds like people are afraid of martial arts and martial artists. If you provoke a fight, you take your own life in your hands, PERIOD. You have no idea of the capabilities of your opponent. The moral here is: Don't provoke any fights! Avoid them when you can! Why does there need to be legislation on this?

As for the martial artist, it depends on the type of threat. If your aggressor is just some drunken bum that is looking for pocket change to buy his next bottle, give him the damn change if you have it! It's not worth spilling blood for!

If, however, this person is someone that has something personal against you, you may need to apply a little more force. After they attack you, give them a little love tap, and hope to hell they decide you aren't worth it. If they come back for more, crank it up a notch. Give them a few bruises.

If there are multiple attackers, you are up against an obviously superior foe (and are afraid for your life), the opponent has a weapon, etc... You may have to break some bones. If your life is threatened, do whatever is necessary. It is better to live your life in prison then be confined to a pine box.

No matter what the circumstances, it is always best to run or call the police if possable. If you have to injure someone, call the police again after the deed is done. This will establish the fact that you have nothing to hide. Also, stay there unless your life is still in danger. You don't want to be charged with leaving the scene of a crime.

This is my personal philosophy. I am not claiming this is the 'right' way, or the only way to handle a scenario like this.

[tkd_master]

from where I'm from, if your in fear of your life(i.e. they say that they're gonna kill you) you can do whatever it takes to protect yourself. You can pick up a brick and smash their head in if you want!

[spiff]

kungfu_master, they did try changing the law recently i think, didn't they? so that only people using "grossly disproportionate force" risk prosection.

when i was studying law i asked a couple judges at the local county court what their attitudes would be towards a martial artist maybe using a little too much force when defending themselves.
they both said that generally they rule in favour of the MA (depending on how long they've been training) because they know that the martial arts teach respect and to only fight as a last resort. they have confidence in the character of the MA, especially when the other guy is your typical english lager lout.

[Timmy Boy]

This is a bunch of crap. It sounds like people are afraid of martial arts and martial artists. If you provoke a fight, you take your own life in your hands, PERIOD. You have no idea of the capabilities of your opponent. The moral here is: Don't provoke any fights! Avoid them when you can! Why does there need to be legislation on this?

Because if there wasn't, lynch mob justice would be legal. "He hit me, so me and my 25 mates went at him with bits of 2 by 4." Imagine the chaos.

No matter what the circumstances, it is always best to run or call the police if possable. If you have to injure someone, call the police again after the deed is done. This will establish the fact that you have nothing to hide. Also, stay there unless your life is still in danger. You don't want to be charged with leaving the scene of a crime.

If you called the police yourself, there's no reason why you should stick around.

[Timmy Boy]

when i was studying law i asked a couple judges at the local county court what their attitudes would be towards a martial artist maybe using a little too much force when defending themselves.
they both said that generally they rule in favour of the MA (depending on how long they've been training) because they know that the martial arts teach respect and to only fight as a last resort. they have confidence in the character of the MA, especially when the other guy is your typical english lager lout.

I suppose it's a bit like high school, the kid who's in and out of the headmaster's office like a boomerang is hardly going to be believed over the straight-laced kid when issues like "who started it" are raised.

[Highkick]

excelence- minnimum force and maximum efficency

[NeonxBurst]

OK we have this policy here too, but our school policy is much the same way, and we always have Police there, but the point is, our policy says, "any students willingly participating in a fight will be immediately suspended for 10 days, with consideration for expulsion." I mean sure, this is usually the case, but what if some maniac attacks u and starts beating you up, do you stand there and take it?!?! And I found out the other day, even if you don't swing back they still suspend you so, there's no point in not fighting back, so my question would be, If some guy attacks you with a knife would they stil suspend me?!

[Fish Of Doom]

if the school i'm in had rules like even if you don't swing back they still suspend you i'd go and punch the principal in the nose and see how he reacts

[NeonxBurst]

Honestly, I think he'd be too dumb to notice....

[Fish Of Doom]

true

[Rebel Wado]

this is a new law passed in my area. If a fight ensues you must use the minimum amount of force nessecary....how can I judge this? i know not to use an arm break or a neck strike or somthing powerful as this. But does any one have any tips...now i dont want to go he hits me i hit him...that would end porly on my end

I'm not a lawyer, but it does seem that in many cases the laws defining necessary force, actually revolve around "reasonable force." Or in other words, given the same situation you are in, what would a reasonable person do and what level of force would they use. This imaginary "reasonable" person can help put situations in perspective. For example, if the assailant was knocked down, no longer posed a threat, and you were able to walk away -- a reasonable person would not then come back and stomp on the head of the assailant because he felt the assailant did not get enough of a beating.

Not a whole lot of help, but it does pay to know your local laws and the laws of any place you might be travelling to. Consult legal authority. I can give you some specifics about where I live, but that might not apply to where you live.

[NeonxBurst]

Another idea, if you can stand this one, would be call your city hall and ask them about it. They oughta know. Wait, this is a political branch, hmm better take lunch and dinner with you, you'll be on hold, and hearing bs for awhile.

[Hannibal]

OK we have this policy here too, but our school policy is much the same way, and we always have Police there, but the point is, our policy says, "any students willingly participating in a fight will be immediately suspended for 10 days, with consideration for expulsion." I mean sure, this is usually the case, but what if some maniac attacks u and starts beating you up, do you stand there and take it?!?! And I found out the other day, even if you don't swing back they still suspend you so, there's no point in not fighting back, so my question would be, If some guy attacks you with a knife would they stil suspend me?!

I suspect that the policy is in place to ensure that any action you take will be absolutely necessary. Maybe they are trying to encourage you to avoid potential situations where you may have to use your skills. I would estimate that around 95% of the assaults I deal with involve poor environmental awareness on the part of the victim. I am not saying they deserved to be attacked - far from it - but a feel for what is happening around them, and the consequences of the same would have worked wonders.

If an attacker comes at you with a knife I 100% guarantee the last thing you will be thinking about is "could I get suspended from class over this?" :D

[UlTi]

Isnt there a law that goes something like : If u feel threatend, like 3 guys in front of you denying you passage and holding bats, then u can like kick them all in the nuts and give them some punches to the face. I think its a Self-defence law kinda thing ... But maybe its only where i live :P ?

[Pete Ticali]

Actually this is not a "technique/Method" discussion.

First and formost, put your ego away. This discussion is about how you report the incident ( which hopefully is how it happened)

I called me a snot and I broke his neck.... isn;t going to do to well for you.

He called me a snot and said he was going to leave me for dead. He then moved his hand towards his waistband, while he began to lurch towards me. I was scared to death, I tried to get out of the way. HIs lunge came as I was moving sideways and he went over my oustretch leg (tai atoshi), and he fell. Did he really break his neck? Wow am I lucky, I really thought he was going to kill me!

Pete Ticali

[Rebel Wado]

Actually this is not a "technique/Method" discussion.

First and formost, put your ego away. This discussion is about how you report the incident ( which hopefully is how it happened)

I called me a snot and I broke his neck.... isn;t going to do to well for you.

He called me a snot and said he was going to leave me for dead. He then moved his hand towards his waistband, while he began to lurch towards me. I was scared to death, I tried to get out of the way. HIs lunge came as I was moving sideways and he went over my oustretch leg (tai atoshi), and he fell. Did he really break his neck? Wow am I lucky, I really thought he was going to kill me!

Pete Ticali

Excellent point, the way you report an incident is very important as that can be used as testomony for or against you later in court.

I was told to stick to the facts but leave out details that aren't important. In the above example, it could have just been said that "he came at me, I thought he had a weapon, we ended up fighting and I threw him off of me."

I'm not saying to lie, but a few things to think about, one is that you can only describe things from your point of view, a witness may see it quite differently so if you go too much into details, you really might not be telling it how it really happened. Ever sparred and looked at a video tape of the match, you will see that what you thought you did is actually a bit different than what you actually did. Hard to explain, but keep things simple, it isn't some belt ranking test where every technique must be explained and demonstrated.

Another thing is best to leave any martial arts terminology out of your initial report, it can be used against you if the first impressions of you is that you are some bad ass skilled martial artist and you had everything under control. This can take away from the truth that you were in immediate jeopardy, and the attacker had the ability and the intent on harming you.

[holyheadjch]

I dont know, I think if you went into court and were able to explain everything you did in detail you could prove you had complete control over your actions. Then you could prove that had you wished you could have kicked/punched him a lot harder than you did (assuming you weren't actually trying to kill your attacker).

[tellner]

this is a new law passed in my area. If a fight ensues you must use the minimum amount of force nessecary....how can I judge this? i know not to use an arm break or a neck strike or somthing powerful as this. But does any one have any tips...now i dont want to go he hits me i hit him...that would end porly on my end

Once again, I'd say get a copy of Massad Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme". It's from more of a firearms perspective, but it will give you very clear insights into the legal and ethical issues surrounding the use of force, particularly deadly force. If you are really motivated to do the right thing and stay out of jail save up a few hundred bucks and take his course LFI-1. You'll learn more about this sort of thing than you could imagine.

Go to a good lawyer, maybe even the ones the local police department uses when they have to defend these cases. Pay for an hour of her time to explain the statutes to you.

A lot of guys can teach you how to hit someone. Very few can teach you when and when not to.

Now, I'm not a lawyer, a judge or even a police officer. You'd be a fool to take anything I say as legal advice. But the best information I've seen indicates that you are generally only justified in using physical force if you believe that someone is using or about to illegally use force against you or an innocent third person.

You are only justified in using deadly force (usually written along the lines of "capable of inflicting death or serious bodily injury") if you or a reasonable person in your situation, knowing what you know would be in reasonable fear of immediate and otherwise unavoidable death or serious bodily injury to yourself or an innocent third person from someone acting illegally.

In other words, in my layman's understanding, if you believe that the only way you can safely escape from a situation where someone is trying to hurt is by hurting them you may do so. If you really believe that someone can and will kill or seriously injure you you can use deadly force to stop him if you don't believe anything less will stop him.

You can't shoot the policeman who is making an arrest. You can't shoot the bad guy in the back if he's running away and isn't a threat any longer (except under some very specialized circumstances). If he's down and you are sure he isn't going to get up and attack you again you can't give him an extra kick in the fork just because he deserves it.

Circumstances mean a lot. If you're outnumbered, if the bad guy is better armed than you, if he's big and strong, if you know he's well-trained or has had a lot of experience jacking people up, if you're sick or disabled and so on these can all make a difference or not depending on the laws and precedents in your jurisdiction.