Goshin Jutsu Karate

[BlueDragon1981]

Hello. Has anyone heard of Goshin Jutsu Karate?:)

[Jim]

No, care to elaborate?

[BlueDragon1981]

The full name of the style I'm in is Goshin Jutsu Kyo Jujo. Its origins have been bashed and some consider the founder bogus. I don't agree with them because the style speaks for itself and is well rounded and has many original (but modefied moves) from other arts. So he ovouisly studied under someone. Now that we got that out of the way..

The art is a hybrid. It has shotokan, kicks for tae kwon do, and aiki -jitsu techniques. We have a total of 16 katas up to black belt and more after black. We also have to do what we call waza. Prearranged self defence. I never counted but I beleive there is over 100 individual techniques you must know for black belt. Plus many more little things, preasure points etc....

[Mike Flanagan]

16 kata before black belt? That sounds rather a lot.

As for the style. There are many many modern eclectic martial arts. They range from excellent to excrement, with every possible shade in between. So I wouldn't let the history of the style worry you too much. Rather, be concerned about the system is fit for its intended purpose (self-defence, self-development, fitness, sport, or some combination of these).

I would be a little concerned though if the founder was deliberately circumspect or even deceitful about its origins.

Mike

[BlueDragon1981]

Oh the Grand Master said where he trained. He was never mysterious about it. After he died a man who had a falling out with him started trying to discredit the style. It doesn't bother me. I like it anyway because even with the sole called shadiness it is a very good well rounded art.

[kensai]

Well, Goshin Jutsu is Japanese for self defence. So I guess its a more self defence orintated karate system?

[Mike Flanagan]

Originally posted by kensai
Well, Goshin Jutsu is Japanese for self defence. So I guess its a more self defence orintated karate system?

Not necessarily, the name doesn't always reflect the reality of how the system is made up.

Mike

[BlueDragon1981]

It is based around Self Defence. It has kata and many other traditional thing to.

[Ken Allgeier]

If anyone is interested in learning the truth about Jerry Durant and his ‘ goshin jutsu’ also known as “ goshin jutsu kyo jujo " (correct Japanese is goshin jutsu kyoju jo ), you can go to these post on E-Budo.com.







Title : Examining goshin jutsu ; Historicity:Evidence Demand a verdict
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?=&threadid=9092

Title : goshin
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?=&threadid=8745

Title : History of goshin jutsu
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?=&threadid=1388

Title : Royal Martial Arts and goshin jutsu.
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?=&threadid=3805

Title :

" goshindo" Karate Legitimacy ?
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?=&threadid=3805

Title :

" goshin jutsu video club."
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?=&threadid=9691

Title:
" Murakami, Jerry Durant and Aiki Jutsu"

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?=&threadid=1245

http://www.karateforums.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3563



" I believe that it is better to tell the truth than a lie.I believe
it is better to be free than be a slave.And I believe it is better to
know than be ignorant." H.L. Mencken


" Anyone who refers to himself as a master or allows himself to be referred to as a master isn't."

Yukiyoshi Takamura,
Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin Kai

It has been prove categorical that Jerry Durant was a fake and a pathological liar, and that his organization goshin jutsu is a cult -like group



1. Was Mr. Durant born in Japan and/or was he half-Japanese?

Answer: No. Mr. Durant was born in Utica, NY in 1922 to American
parents.


2. Did Mr. Durant study karate in Japan and bring the style Goshin Jutsu to the US from Japan?

Answer: No, in fact there is no evidence that Mr. Durant was ever in Japan at any time during his life.


3. Did Mr. Durant learn the style in Japan from a "samurai prince"?

Answer: No. See answer to question #2. Also, there is no such thing as a"samurai prince". The Samurai were extinct as a class in Japan long before Mr. Durant made his claims, and besides, they don't have "Princes". The Samurai were warriors, not royalty.


4. Where, when, from whom and in what style did Mr. Durant receive his shodan?

Answer: Mr. Durant never earned any dan ranking in any form of
Traditional karate. Evidence indicates that Mr. Durant promoted himself to shodan in the early 1960's in Erie, PA.


5. Is Goshin Jutsu a classical form of traditional Japanese karate?

Answer: No. It is a completely fabricated style which was made up by Mr. Durant using a few karate books as reference.


6. Are the Goshin katas such as Ichi Bando, Yonaka, Kishu, etc.
classical katas with Japanese/ Samurai roots?

Answer: No. Mr. Durant made the katas up himself, which is why no one from legitimate karate styles has ever heard of them.


7. Are promotions in Goshin Jutsu handled in the traditional manner of classical Japanese karate?

Answer: No. Since the style is made-up, it has no ties to any legitimate karate associations which issue rank. Thus, in Goshin, instructors either promote themselves or each other to high rank, and in some cases,are even promoted by their own students.


8. Is the Japanese terminology used by Goshin Jutsu/Goshin Do correct?

Answer: No. Instructors of the style use and pronounce many of the common terms improperly, and also have made-up many phrases without regard to their actual Japanese meaning. For instance, Mr. Durant called himself "Kyoto", telling his students it meant "great teacher".In Japan the term actually means "assistant principal of a public school". It is obvious that Mr. Durant could not speak or understand Japanese and that the terms he did use were probably copied out of books. Similarly, the kanji Mr. Durant printed on promotional certificates has been studied and found to be gibberish, probably copied
sloppily from books.


9. Was the style handed down by Chinese bandits, ninjas or samurai?

Answer. No. See questions 1-6.


10. Is the style considered in present day to be a legitimate form of Japanese karate:

Answer: No. Few legitimate karate organizations have even heard of Goshin Jutsu. It is generally understood to be a made-up style pretending to be legitimate.




Ken Allgeier
Erie PA, USA

[YODA]

*Sigh

Got an axe to grind have we?

This is a discussion forum not a political soap box.

:woo:

[Cain]

LOL!!! :D

Ditto!

|Cain|

[Ken Allgeier]

" No axe to grind here" I am simply presenting the facts and evidence, so each indivdual can determine what is the truth.I just believe in honesty and standards( always tell the truth)isn't that what we teach our children.

[BlueDragon1981]

I don't care about the legitimacy of the art. The art is an affective one so why instead of arguing about Durant, can't you actually admit the art has evolved into a legitimate art even if you don't like the founder.

Has anyone who is complaining about Durant stepped into the dojo lately. It truely has become a very good art.

What do you all say about Joe Brague, Russ Capela, and others like James Fife. Even seen them do any of the art. They learned from Durant.

Like I said their are many questions on many arts. Who knows....not you not I. The ones who do are passed on and leave it at that. The art has grown into a good art regardless of what you think of the founder.

And I do think you have an axe to grind....no further comments

[Ken Allgeier]

Subject: RE: goshin tape
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 18:33:15 -0600
From: Don Cunningham <budokai@concentric.net>
To: "'Hatsuun Jindo'" <bushido@velocity.net>

Hi Ken,

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you. I have viewed most of the tape and reviewed the documents you sent. (I couldn't stand to watch too much at a time.)

This was almost too unbelievable. It was like a comedy skit about martial arts. I had to keep reminding myself that some people have taken this stuff seriously. I can't begin to understand the mentality of those who did, butI guess some people will see whatever they want instead of what is so obviously a fraud.

I checked the documents and Guy Power's comments. My own Japanese reading skills are rather limited, but what I did understand agrees completely with Mr. Power's observations. I must therefore conclude that Mr. Power's other comments are accurate as well. While it has little to do with the Japanese
language issues, the one thing that really struck me was just how tacky and cheap the certificates looked. I have seen any number of Japanese certificates, from martial arts rankings to sushi chef licenses, both hand done on individual basis to those pre-printed in mass quantities. Although I realize this is a subjective judgment, the Japanese certificates all reflected a certain quality image which is definitely lacking in those
produced by Durant. How would anyone believe in such junk as these hand drawn and photocopied rank certificates? They look like something a child might have produced rather than any rank certificate I've ever seen before.

As for the videotape, the deragatory remarks made by Durant during the demonstration in the shopping mall certainly present a negative image. His need to constantly draw attention to his self-imposed status indicates an immaturity that I found quite distasteful. I thought he was supposed to be
some sort of grandmaster? I have never seen any Japanese budoka of his age and position act in such an outrageous and vain manner. Why would anyone follow someone who behaves as such a clown is beyond my comprehension.

As for the actual demonstrations, I have very little knowledge of atemi waza, since my background is mainly judo. However, the obsession with touching/striking other men's genitals seemed a bit strange to me.Furthermore, the actual striking techniques seemed mostly impractical and not very effective. I used to box for awhile when I was in the military.Although I never went beyond novice standing, I think I could easily drop
anyone who used such bizarre hand strikes as witnessed on the tape. The flash of hands around the face and upper body are just crazy. They are completely open to a direct right or left straight jab. If anyone who knows the least bit of boxing encountered something as stupid as this, they could drop them like a sack of potatoes with one punch to the jaw or nose.

As for the other techniques, one thing which clearly indicates Durant has never trained in Japan is the way they went to seiza. It would be just as strange in our culture as if someone constantly offered their left hand for a handshake or a career military person used his left hand to salute
the flag. It just isn't done. Yet, Durant and his students consistently used the wrong sequence.

I don't know where they got the habit for the little right leg stomp each time they prepared to bow, but this is also something that is not done in Japanese culture or budo. I can only assume they have adopted this from some Western interpretation of martial arts etiquette. Again, this indicates the lack of any formal training in Japan. I also noticed that
Durant and some of his senior students seemed to confuse Okinawan forms and Japanese martial arts in their descriptions and presentations. This is not something one would expect from someone who trained in Japanese karate, but indicates a blending of techniques from various sources with little or no
understanding of the culture.

I found the class or seminar instruction was the most revealing regarding Durant's complete lack of any martial arts experience. First, he was wearing the obi on his kimono with a knot only used by women. Because of the poor video quality, I couldn't be sure, but it also appeared to be a woman's obi. Furthermore, his kimono was worn with right over left, something which is only done on corpses in Japan.

His description of grappling and throwing techniques was absolutely ridiculous. He never referenced or used any kuzushi (off-balancing), an aspect considered absolutely critical in all major styles of Japanese jujutsu and judo. I've heard others state that Durant's techniques were effective, but I can not believe this is possible after watching his teaching techniques. As a judoka, I can state without any doubt that a throw which does not first utilize kuzushi will not be effective without a extremely cooperative uke or partner. Anyone who claims these techniques
worked in actual encounters has absolutely no credability, in my opinion,since it is next to impossible to throw a resisting opponent without first setting them up with kuzushi.

Another aspect which I found disturbing was the lack of any emphasis on ukemi. I have never seen any Japanese martial art utilizing throws which does not first teach proper ukemi for practice. A Japanese budoka would be ashamed to present techniques in which the uke didn't utilize good ukemi
when receiving the technique. In each throw practiced during the hands-on seminar, Durant's students never once used any ukemi when falling or accepting the techniques. Even more important, Durant never once discussed
the importance of ukemi or took any notice of how poorly the uke falls when the technique is applied, which indicates his lack of experience or concern about safety during practice.

Overall, I am surprised that anyone with the least bit of experience in any real martial arts style would believe this guy is anything but a complete fraud and egomaniac. Even without the hillbilly accent and manners, I would have trouble accepting something as ridiculous as shown on this videotape.
That many apparently did respect and believe in this idiot is very
frightening to me. Of course, the ones shown as his senior students and followers on this tape didn't seem to have much common sense or education in the first place. I guess it is conceivable that they may have been mislead without anything legitimate to compare it to. In this case,ignorance may be an temporary excuse, but to maintain belief in this
"system" in light of so many other factors is just plain stupidity.



I hope my comments are what you're looking for here. I can expand on anything with specific references if you want. I didn't take notes when I watched the tape, mainly because I was shocked to see something so blantantly ridiculous after hearing about how realistic his act had been. I surmised he has no real background from many other factors, but I had never actually witnessed his techniques or teaching methods. With so many ready to defend his credability, though, I expected to see something a bit more polished and potentially realistic. This tape was a real eye-opener. I just sat in shock, mouth full open, to see such nonsense presented with any seriousness on the part of the participants. I would have been ashamed to be associated with a group that was willing to have put on such a weak show
as a public demonstration. If I had, I would change my name and move to another city, afraid of being recognized as a former follower of such a dubious personality.

Sincerely,

Don

Don Cunningham
www.eBudokai.com
www.eBudostore.com
budokai@concentric.net


Subject: Goshin Jutsu
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 14:12:19 -0700
From: David Chambers <dragon@dragon-tsunami.org>
To: bushido@velocity.net

Dear Mr. Allgeier,

Thank you very much for the documentation and the video.

I think that this is the worst nonsense that I have seen in 30 years. It's absolute nonsense, and difficult to belief that even they took it seriously—assuming they did. It's so bad that I really don't want to comment on it.



Thank you again for the material. By cooperating we can, hopefully, root out this sort of thing.

Thanks & regards


Subject: Re: NEW INFORMATION !
Date: Sun, 7 May 2000 19:49:19 -0700
From: Guy Power <gpower@mail.arc.nasa.gov>
To: Hatsuun Jindo <bushido@velocity.net>

Hello Ken,



I showed the Durant tape to one of Mr. Church's old
students (he has been teaching jujutsu for many years)...he couldn't believe the waza performed, and even was shocked at Mr. Durant's conduct at the Texas Mall demonstration. The karate waza were terrible -- I recognized a variation of one of the Heian/Pinan kata -- I haven't done any in 25 years and still could do better, and be closer to the original kata.

Well, I'll go for now.

Regards,
Guy

Guy H. Power
Administrative Officer
Neuro Engineering Laboratory
NASA Ames Research Center


Bluedragon


" What do you all say about Joe Brague, Russ Capela, and others like James Fife. Even seen them do any of the art. They learned from Durant."


If you would read my reasearch and the posts on E-Budo.com.You would have known that I was once ( unfortunately)a student of Jerry Durant and I have see all the indivduals you have stated and more and I am not impressed.

I have been vary luck in the fact that I have been able to learn REAL KARATE and BUDO from Okinawan and Japanese teachers and their and 1st and 2ed generation students( non-asian).Whom far outclass anyone conected to Jerry Durant.

Again I invite you to the local YMCA so I can explain and demostrate( in a civil and friendly manner) why you are not training in Karatedo.If goshin jutsu kyo juju is so great, then you should have nothing to fear.



Ken

[thiaboxr2]

If you like your art, fine, study it. Too much politics in this thread concerning "truth" or "lies". Its what YOU make of it that should matter. Not what others think about it.

[Cain]

Nver said better thaiboxr ;)

Sorry, but the whole thread seems like a political soap box :)

|Cain|

[SoKKlab]

I read Mr Allgeier's posts on E-Budo previously. IMHO-that's a better place for them.

[Jim]

fight, fight, fight, fight... or better yet, get another room...

[BlueDragon1981]

I agree. I like the art so I do not care what Ken says about it. He can hold whatever opinion he wants about me. I have seen enough schools to know that he just has a grudge. I am not purely goshin. I have seen a lot of crap schools in Erie and surrounding areas. So think what you want about the art and its people. Because by judging everyone in the art and saying it is crap shows who you really are.

I have learned to control many things from studing the art. I gained confidence and many other aspects that have helped me in my life. So that should speak for itself. The art is not bogus. I don't care if you have a problem with Durant the art has taught me alot, and that is what it is ment for. If you didn't go around forum to forum stating your politics maybe I would believe something you said but it just seems you have a axe to grind. ....no further comments will be posted by me on this subject. Other than what the art has taught me and what I like and dislike about it. The way it should be not politics and fighting.:woo:

[JAMJTX]

If you like this brand of inferior martial art, that is fine. Personally I think it is a joke.
The problem here is that Durant has forged the signature of one of my teachers on a phony certificate. He used these made up stories to promote think junk as legitimate Japanese Budo.
All of his stories have proven to be lies, but his followers continue to spread this nonsense.
If they want to make claims, then they should show proof. Instead, when thier claims are challenged, they say things like "it doesn't matter if the art works" Or "your just playing politics".
If it is not important, then why make the claims.
Some of the facts are:
Durant (and now his followers) say that Durant trained at the Osaka Kodokan in the 1930's - Fact - this branch did not exist then and there is no record of this man at the Kodokan.
Durant and his followers also claim he had Dan ranking in Aikido. This also is not true.
It is claimed that Durant trained with Shogo Kuniba and was a representive of the Seishin Kai 1958-59. There is no record of Durant with the Seishin Kai. Plus the Seishin Kai had no U.S. branch until 1964. Richard Baillargeon - the first American to receive Dan ranking in the Seishin Kai was granted permission to start a U.S. branch in 1964. He was also the first American Shihan in Seishin Kai. Durant was never affiliated in any way with the Seishin Kai, Shogo Kuniba or Richard Baillargeon.

Every single claim made by the current leadership of this "goshin jutsu" organization has proven to be a lie.

I peronslly feel that is is wrong to take money from people under false pretenses.

[thiaboxr2]

NO offense-but complaining to us on a style YOU say is a Fraud isn't going to change the fact that its being taught.

There are too many other styles that are going through simularities like this. Is it ITF or IKF? Aikido is better...No its not....Yes it is....My style is best....yours sucks....

See my point? There is no point to posting a negative response to shoot down any martial art style that someone is learning. If it is a "fake", let him find out on his own. Some people know that their "style" is watered down, yet they still train in it. Because they still get valuable skills, training and knowledge.

Besides this, this is a forum for exchanging ideas in training, martial arts of ALL kinds, watered down or not. This is how we learn of them.

You have a right to express your opinion. Just keep it at that.


No need to bring the politics in this discussion. Lets keep it friendly!:D :D

[JAMJTX]

The person that started this thread does this to sell his "art" to others. He tells of how great this phony style is and usually posts links to web sites that mention my teachers name.
These people have falsified these certificates and forged my teachers name on them.
I think it was not only wrong to do that, I also think those who are being sold this line of crap have a right to know that the ranks are fake and the certificates are forged.
Tell this guy to stop using my teachers name in his sales pitches and I will stop telling people he is a liar. Does that sound fair?

I have offered, and will pay $2,500 to anyone who can prove that the claims made by Durant and his followers are true.

There are many styles of martial arts, including Traditional Japanese Martial Arts. This "goshin jutsu" crap is not Japanese. Durant has never received any type of rank from a Japanese organization or instructor. If you want to learn Japanese Martial Arts of any kind, stay away from this crowd.
If you want to learn a fake style of "karate" from a crazy redneck with a criminal record, then the Durant organization is for you.
Before taking your kids to sign up for these classes - you may want to look into why the current "soke" Durant was in prison.

[Saz]

Yawn...

Politics, don't you just love it.

[kempocos]

The Japanses did not invent KARATE so they should lay no claim to it. The fact is all fighting arts have been evolving and changing. I also feel the accounts of LIES should not be over looked. I find it very funny how arts American creaters of fighting styles always come up with very Asian sounding names, often mixing terms from

[kempocos]

SORRY , MIXING TERMS FROM CHINA JAPAN , OKINAWA to make it sound ancient. Tell the truth " I CAN FIGHT , WANT TO SEE HOW I FIGHT OCME ON DOWN TO MY SCHOOL" and FRAUD IS FRAUD.

[Cain]

I just started a school called Cain do karate

Sue me! :D

|Cain|

[SoKKlab]

Originally posted by cain_charlie
I just started a school called Cain do karate

Sue me! :D

|Cain|

Would that be Michael Cain e Do?
Citizen Cain e Do?
Or Wicker Cane Do?

[KenpoDavid]

there's a big difference between "your style sucks" and "your founder lies about his background".

The first is just blah blah BS, the second is important information (when backed by facts! only when backed by facts!)

I don't mind threads like this WHEN THEY OFFER FACTS AND EXPOSE LIES.

[Saz]

Originally posted by cain_charlie
I just started a school called Cain do karate

Sue me! :D

|Cain|

That an offer Cain? If not, I'll sue you for breach of promise as well :D

[kempocos]

KENPO DAVE - Well said I agree as long as the statmenets are explained with FACT and not things the heard or read on another forum.

[JAMJTX]

Like some of the others, I couldn't care less about people studying this "goshinjutsu" if that is what they want to do.
Like KenpoDavid said, "I don't mind threads like this WHEN THEY OFFER FACTS AND EXPOSE LIES". That is what I want to do. It has nothing to do with petty martial arts politics.
It has to do with telling the truth and protecting the reputations of 2 good men and great martial artists - Shogo Kuniba and Richard Baillargeon.
If you read the whole history of the Durant style it simply can not be true - things just don't add up.
The current leaders of this organization try to claim that Durant was the 12th person in history to earn a Shodan in karate. This would have him there at the begining when Karate was introduced to Japan and would have him as a vary senior student. If this were true he would have been a very famous man.
But it is not true. And since there is no evidence to support this claim, there had to be a new story - the "Samurai Prince" who taught him Karate. Well the man was either a Samurai or a Prince - not both. There is the first error and indication of a fabricated story. This man was supposed to have been named Murikami - not one of the names of the Royal Family and not a known clan. So it seems there was no Murikami. Not too mention the claim is that this Murikami is the man who introduced Karate to Japan. A pretty ridiculous claim.
There is also the claim that Durant came home from Japan as a 6th Dan. At that time period he would have outranked Funakoshi, which again would have made him a very famous person. But still no one heard of him.
Now skip ahead to the 1970's. when Durant really started his training in PA. He claimed to be a representative of the Seishinkai. This is simply a lie. There is no record of him. Richard Baillrgeon was the rep for Seishinkai. There are also claims that Durant had a 5th Dan granted by Mr. Baillargeon. Again this is not true. The certificate is a fake and the signature is too. Not too mention that it is the wrong signature. Shogo Kuniba signed the Seishinkai certificates - not Mr. Baillargeon.
The claim is also made that Durant trained at the Osaka Kodokan in the 1930's. Not only did this branch not exist then, but the Kodokan says that he never earned any rank any where at any time.
The claim was also made that Durant learned Aikido and Aikijujitsu in the 1940s - during the period of time such practice was banned. There was no Aikido again until after the war. There is also no record anywhere in any Aikido organization of Durant training or getting rank. I can only assume the claims of this Aikijujitsu training are just as bogus.
If the durant followers want to promote this "new style" that is fine. But tell the truth and just say durant made it up after reading a few books and having a few months of training.
It is wrong to lie about the origins of the system and about where and who he trained with.
It is especially wrong to forge a man's name on a rank certificate.

If you want to study an inferior system with a bunch of clowns, rednecks and losers who lie with just about every word they speak, then the durant style is for you.
If you want to learn effective self-defense, or are interested in authentic Japanese Budo/Bujutsu - then you will want to stay away from this group.

[JAMJTX]

"We also have to do what we call waza. Prearranged self defence"
In all other ryu, this would be either Kata or Ippon Kumite. This is another example of Durant not knowing the terminology that goes with what he taught.
Can you explain this lack of knowledge? Why, in all his training did he never learn the Japanese terms.
How could he have lived and trained in Japan for so long, becoming one of the highest ranking black belts, and never learn the language or the basic lingo?
Could it be that the fact is that virtually every single claim made by the goshin jutsu groups today has proven to be a lie?

[JAMJTX]

I have received and closely examined 4 certificates issued to Gerard/Gerald Durant.
Two of them promote Durant to 10th Dan, one in “Tatsu Do Karate” the other in “Tatsu Do Aikijutsu”. William Cavalier and Daiku Yama sign both certificates.
There are a number of problems with the certificates, starting with the fact that they look they were made by a child using a copy machine. Aside from the arguments that these are not legitimate styles and that Cavalier was of “lower rank” than the person being promoted, there is one glaring problem: The same person who signed the name William Cavalier also signed the name Daiku Yama. The handwriting shares too many characteristics to believe otherwise.
Daiku Yama is not a real Japanese name. This person obviously signed a fake Japanese name on the certificate in order to deceive people.

I have also reviewed 2 supposed Seishinkai documents issued to Durant and supposedly signed by Richard P. Baillargeon. At first glance, these documents look legitimate. But upon closer look, they are seen as falsified.

The Baillargeon signatures look strikingly similar to the signature on my certificates. But the 2 signatures on the 2 Durant certificates appear to have been written by different people.

One of the certificates is an award certificate “issued to Durant” for his hard work and dedication in promoting Karate. This certificate has 2 signatures, Richard P. Baillargeon and a Wm. Rbt. Jenkins. It is dated January 1969. First of all Mr. Baillargeon was in Pakistan and not actively running the Seishin Kai. Second, the same person that signed the name Daiku Yama on the “10 Dan” certificates also wrote the word “January” on this certificate. The signature of Wm. Robt. Jenkins also shares characteristics with William Cavalier’s signature on the 10th Dan certificates. If Mr. Baillargeon’s signature on this certificate is real, it may just be a mass produced certificate with a pre-printed signature. Or he signed some blanks. Either way, this certificate was not issued by Mr. Baillargeon to Durant.

The 4th certificate is a Seishin Kai school charter issued to Durant identifying him as Go-Dan. This certificate is not dated, although there is a place for the date on it.
The signature again, looks good but there are some differences when compared to Mr. Baillargeon’s signature on my certificates. This Baillargeon signature also shares some characteristics with the signatures of Daiku Yama and William Cavalier on the 10th Dan certificates.

I must maintain that these documents have been falsified for the purpose of misleading potential students of the “goshin jutsu” organization created by Durant and his cohorts.

[Aikihugh]

Hi everyone. I am new to this group and only found it by searching for Ken Allgeier, who continues to spam my friends and I, who studied with Master Gerard Durant in the past in Goshin Jutsu Karate. I am actually indebted to Ken for mailing me the tape he talks about in previous posts, and yes, Durant was crude and rude, and definitely not politically correct. But he was definitely the best person I have ever seen in the martial arts.

I am indebted to Ken for the tape he sent me, because in the hotly contested mall demonstration where Durant does a lot of showing off, and there are some weird people demonstrating (not puting my good friends Larry Ruiz Sensei, or James Fife Sensei into this group), there are also some outstanding Sai against Bo techniques, and Nunchaku against Knife techniques, shown by Durant, which I simply could not have found anywhere else.

In the early 1970's when I was a green belt, I had two occasions to uki for Master Durant when he was demonstrating Aiki-Jutsu techniques to my Sensei, who I continue to study with to this day near Lake Erie in Ohio. The first technique, he threw me by grabbing my right striking arm, and when I got up, I found I had four pressure points on my arm that I had never felt before. The second time, he asked me to grab his right wrist. The next thing I knew, I was horizontal in the air searching for the mat to slap. I was totally awed and shaken. I also had the opportunity to witness Durant perfom the Kata - San Chin - that he performed in the mall. But I saw him do it fifteen years prior to that, when he did not yet have the cancer that forced him to move to Texas. I had never seen anything like it, and have not since, from anyone.

I had the opportunity to participate in a class with Teruo Chinen Sensei in Chicago, where he was kind enough to show us the Goju-Ryu Kata Tensho. Chinen Sensei was the closest to a true Master that I have ever seen, outside of Master Durant. But in my humble opinion, I put them on a peer level.

Some of the people that Ken likes to discredit, are some really great Martial Artists like Soke William Cavalier. I love to go to their Karate Clinic in Geneseo, NY near Rochester in February when I can. I also like their Annual Tournament in Livonia, NY every year. The last time I went, there were well over a hundred dan ranks in attendance with scores of students from all over the country, and from many different styles. If he is so bad, why would so many good karateka flock there. I love to go on Friday night for Cavalier's Aiki Clinic. One year I had my wife tape it. At home, I distilled over 40 techniques learned in three hours time. Great and very streetworthy techniques, that also pushed the envelope for innovation and thought. Not bad for $8. These people are heart and soul people, not there for the money. I have been keeping track of the Aiki techniques I have learned from Durant and his students over the years, and I have cataloged over 250. OK, maybe he never went to Japan before the war (but he did), but he learned them from someone good. Most people have a picture of Funikoshi on their wall. Durant had a picture of Master Ueshiba, and early on he taught us of the brilliance of this fine Master who he referred to as one of his teachers.

I am also not saying that Goshin Jutsu is traditional, at least in the conventional sence. But try out this experience I had while living in Chicago. I have a good friend who is a Ni Dan in Kendo. He is from Osaka, and was one of the champions of his dojo. I showed him some of my kata that I learned directly from Durant and his students. Taka thought that my kata were the most authentic he had ever seen, the type he saw in the neighborhood when he was growing up, and he asked me how a person outside of Japan could know such things, which he considered to be national treasures. He often had me demonstrate these to the multinational students of Loyalla University, where I performed a Sai Kata for representatives of the Japanese Consulate. I learned what I showed them from Durant, and they were impressed. http://user.mc.net/~hugh/Pictures.htm

Anyway, in my limited way of looking at things, lineage is not as important as spirit. Most of my good friends that have been in the arts for over 25 years were students in those early classes in the 70s, and we have good memories of our instruction that still keeps us going.

Thanks for reading. Train hard and don't bash people for trying to better themselves. Hopefully, I havn't intruded on any important threads.

Hugh Cassidy - aikihugh

[JAMJTX]

If you put a 2-bit con-man with no training on the same level as Chinen Sensei, ou have either been seriously brain-washed by the Durant-ites or are severely mentally deficient.
Durant's technique was nothing but crap.
Every single story he has told in relation to his "training" has been proven to be a lie. All of his certificates have been fakes - excpet for the one signed by Cavalier his student which is not worth the papaer it is printed on.
If you are looking for a real martial arts school, keep looking beyond those schools with lineage to durant. You will be wasting your time and your money training with these frauds.
This "goshin jutsu" goes well beyond just bad "karate" - it is all fake and they are all a bunch of liars.

[Cain]

Can we have a new section called "politics" ;)

|Cain|

[JAMJTX]

Why not - we have this one about frauds, cons, liars, fake karate
and forged certificates!

[Chris J.]

Hello,
I see some familiar names being thrown around here. My first Sensei was (is) Bob Zepecki, who was in Peshawar Pakistan with Baillargeon Sensei. Baillargeon did indeed sign my Shodan certificate, and I would be happy to also make a comparison for you folks. I will enlist the aid of a local police department where I have some acquaintances who are in the same Guard unit that I am in; we can get professional handwriting analysis. Just send me the clearest copies available and I will gladly do this.
It is certainly true that this Durant's claims sound bogus. I have not researched them, but the burden of proof should be on one claiming such things. I would like to run this down myself, because I too have a distaste for fraud. Also, the man has used the names of folks who I trained with (Baillargeon, Kuniba).
I can view his tapes and tell you in about 30 seconds if he ever worked with Kuniba, or Baillargeon. Those who knew Baillargeon know that he did very, very sloppy kata, but that he was extremely effective at making the techniques in them work. Baillargeon did not bother to make his kata pretty. Kuniba, on the other hand, had finesse, and liked to encorporate ideas from the various other arts he had studied into his Binkai Oyo, and even back into his katas on occasion. I can identify the signature techniques and differences of both of these men on sight.
Also, if it turns out Durant did not get his katas from them, I can most likely figure out where they did originate based on my extensive library of tapes of different styles. What do you say we settle this thing? If the history is bogus, then drop it. If his certifications are bogus, stop citing them. Who knows what he looks like until I see him work myself; until then that is as far as I will go. My E-mail is cajgodan@yahoo.com . Please do contact me and lets arrange to share some of this material.

-Chris A. Johnston

[JAMJTX]

Chris,

Have Ken Allegier send you what he has. Mine are copies of his.
There are other problems in addition to the Baillargeon signatures.

First there are the Japanse Seishin Kai certificates. One shows the name of a Kodokan judo teacher who died 10 years before the date on the certificate. Durant also claimed to be a representative in the U.S. of Seishin Kai starting in 1958, and claimed that Hohan Soken was head of the Seishin Kai.
On his "Japanese" certificates, a lot of the kanji is upside down and or backwards and much of it is just jibberish.

Some of the differences in the Baillargeon signatures have been explained to me. These may have been pre-printed certificates that were signed by his brother (the printer) who had a similar signature. But what these certs lack is a seal that would have made them official.

By all appearances, Durant got these certificates from James Benko when Baillargeon was in Pakistan. You would know more about this time period than I would.

Durant was actually on the rolls as a member of Seishin Kai, but not as a teacher. Plus he never trained with anyone of any substantial rank. Based on other claims he made, it is safe to assume that his only direct contact with anyone was with Benko.

Durant was a loud-mouthed redneck who always made his presence known. If you ask around, you will find people who heard his name around but probably won't find someone who met him, trained with him or taught him.

You shoudl read his other claims - like training with "Murakami" - The Samurai Prince who introduced Karate and Kungfu to Japan.
This is probably the most laughable of his claims.

Ken's tape is a real joke too.

Jim Mc Coy

[Cain]

Good lord! Can't you give it a rest already?

Nobody cares, this is a discussion forum not the parliment or the whitehouse y'know ;)

|Cain|

[JAMJTX]

A lot of people care. The Durant people who started this post care deeply. They are bringing in quite a bit of money by deceiving a lot of people with this crap.
It may not be the "whitehouse", but it is something that people may have to use to save thier life some day. In that situation, it is too late to learn that you were lied to by a fraudualt karate teacher.
Fraud is fraud, whether you steal a million bucks at a time or steal $75 bucks a month from a few hundred students for a number of years. And this is fraud.
Like I said before, when the durant people give it a rest and remove the Seishinkai, Kuniba and Baillargeon names from thier literature and webs sites, etc. I will stop coming to boards like this and telling people they are phonies.

[Cain]

Yeah but a forum is not the place to discuss all that. The members here come to discuss and share their ideas about the arts, not listen to politics and discuss wether somebody's fake or not, go on TV or make a webpage on this or something!

As far as most of the members are concerned, we don't give a damn wether the guy's fake or not. Period.

Sorry for being rude, just my honest opinion

|Cain|

[JAMJTX]

It is not possible to discuss the durant goshin jutsu without discussing fraud, because it is a fraud.
The troll that started this post asked if anyone ever heard of goshin jutsu.
The answer is, yes I did hear of it. The founder, his son and senior student were criminals who started the organization as a we to sucker people into giving them money each month. Not a single one of them has more than a couple of months at most of training and all of thier rank certificates have been proven to be fakes.
It's a lgit answer to the question and it is the truth.

Now, if you don't give damn about it, stop reading and replying to the posts.

[YODA]

There come a stage where threads like this go a step beyond public service and become what we call here - "Non-Contributory" i.e. they contribute nothing to the community here. The case has been made - the situation about this "Goshin Jutsu Karate" has had it's 15min of fame - time to move on.