Tradtional vs. Ecclectic Arts

[Thomas Vince]

Give some examples as to why you like or dis-like traditional arts, as well as some reasons why you like or dislike ecclectic arts. Whats important about them, what are their differences and simularities.

[Andy Murray]

Thomas,

just to save the angst experienced elsewhere. Would you mind giving us a working definition of what constitutes a traditional or eclectic system?

Thanks,

Andy

[Thomas Vince]

I was hoping that the forum could start defining that when they talk about the differences and simularities. Let's see if the people can draw the lines and descriptions? What do you say?

[Andy Murray]

Ok, elsewhere on this forum, a traditional system was defined as one which was passed from one generation to another. An eclectic system has influences from more than one traditional system. OK?

[Freeform]

My idea of an ecclectic art is one which deals with various aspects of combat, such as striking, grappling, weapons etc. So doesn't that mean that traditional arts (when viewed in their entirity) are in fact ecclectic themselves?

Thanx

[Andy Murray]

Yes but using the definition I gave, the eclectic system will become a tradition once it passes from a generation. Does this mean that Jeet Kune Do is now a Traditional Art? A paradox!

Which came first? The Chicken or the egg?

[Thomas Vince]

Now we have a good conversation going. You see Ed Parker taught Kenpo and though it is a cousin of the other Kenpo/Kempo/Kosho arts it is very ecclectic yet, has it's own traditions that we adhere to and deem necessary for proper training and MIND SET! Lets keep it going Andy and hope that others will soon join in!

[Thomas Vince]

Andy,
Good, here's what you said:
An eclectic system has influences from
more than one traditional system. OK?
Now what about Traditional Arts such "Isshin-Ryu" where the founder studied another called "Shotokan" prior to creating his own art. And what about the fact that Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do share the exact same Hwarangs or "Kata's" yet both claim traditional styles. Does the word Traditional = PURE? Just food for thought guys I am completely open and objective here.
Thomas

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by Thomas Vince
Andy,
Good, here's what you said:
An eclectic system has influences from
more than one traditional system. OK?
Now what about Traditional Arts such "Isshin-Ryu" where the founder studied another called "Shotokan" prior to creating his own art. And what about the fact that Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do share the exact same Hwarangs or "Kata's" yet both claim traditional styles. Does the word Traditional = PURE? Just food for thought guys I am completely open and objective here.
Thomas

Well first lets clarify the facts:

The founder of Isshin ryu studied under Chotoku Kyan, Chojun Miyagi, Choki Motobu and Taira Shinken, No shotokan training.

Second that has nothing to do with the definition. Isshin ryu has been around for more then one generation of teachers, therefore getting it traditional status, well kind of...

Second I can't think of many teachers that do not draw from several sources. My style is Isshin ryu, but you'll find me doing a lot of things that come from people of other styles. I think if you look at it you'll find most "traditional" schools are actually eclectic under that definition.

Andrew

[Ozebob]

Originally posted by Thomas Vince
Give some examples as to why you like or dis-like traditional arts, as well as some reasons why you like or dislike ecclectic arts. Whats important about them, what are their differences and simularities.

Hi Thomas,

The so called traditional arts were all eclectic at sometime in their history. Longevity is the true test of any art.. is it worthwhile being passed on and then is there someone capable of doing so.

I prefer to think of myself as a karate practitioner rather than a stylist. The labels are creating monsters in that many wish to distinguish their art from another. I'm as guilty as anyone else as use the term Shoto-Ryu instead of Shotokan or Shotokan-Ryu.

I don't teach the JKA Shotokan syllabus so using the term Shotokan in my advertising is misleading for students from elsewhere expecting the standard JKA syllabus.

Many of the non-JKA groups have started using the term Shotokan-Ryu which means the the style of the hall of Shoto. I prefer to say we are practising the style of Shoto (Gichin Funakoshi's pen name).

AS I said if we all just karatepractitioners as is the case with Judo and Kendo I believe we would all be better off.

Regards,
Bob

[waya]

Bob,
For once I agree wholeheartedly with you. The term "Stylist" to me suggests a form of segregation or eliteism of a sort, instead of being a mostly respectful and cooperative group of people.

Rob

[Thomas Vince]

I stand corrected I think what i meant was Goju-Ryu before he started Isshin-Ryu. And question were there not brothers and each slight variations of the art.

[waya]

Actually from what I have seen of Shorin Ryu and Isshin Ryu the kata are identical to Shotokan. I could be mistaken but I know I have seen them under identical names. Is this everywhere or just a particular school I ran into?

Rob

[Kosokun]

Originally posted by waya
Actually from what I have seen of Shorin Ryu and Isshin Ryu the kata are identical to Shotokan. I could be mistaken but I know I have seen them under identical names. Is this everywhere or just a particular school I ran into?

Rob


Hi Rob,

It's that particular school. The kata are indeed quite different from each other, while Shorin and Isshin Ryu do have some similarities.

Shorin Ryu kata have a ton more cat stances than you'd find in the shotokan kata. Also, there's a greater variety of stances in the Shorin kata. Isshin Ryu (Not Tiky Donovan's Isshin Ryu but the original Okinawan Isshin ryu) utilizes the vertical fist far more than any other style. Isshin Ryu and Shorin Ryu utilize Shiko Dachi (horse stance with the toes out) whereas it's absent from Shotokan kata (they use the kiba dachi: toes supposed to be forward).

That help?

Rob

(incidentally, nothing against Mr. Donovan's Isshin Ryu. I admire the man's accomplishments. It's that there's an Okinawan Isshin Ryu and now, an Isshin Ryu born in the UK. They're completely different and unrelated styles.)

[waya]

Finally I get some insight into this.
I asked because I know of a school that does the Tekki Kata as well as the Heian kata in Isshin Ryu and it confused me a bit why they would be using the kata under the same names there. I know the instructor and he's certainly not a nobody. I know he has crosstrained so it may have something to do with that.

Rob

[Andrew Green]

Originally posted by waya
Finally I get some insight into this.
I asked because I know of a school that does the Tekki Kata as well as the Heian kata in Isshin Ryu and it confused me a bit why they would be using the kata under the same names there. I know the instructor and he's certainly not a nobody. I know he has crosstrained so it may have something to do with that.

Rob

Well some instructors have added beginner kata to the Isshin ryu Pinan/fukyu/etc. That could explain the Heian, but Isshin ryu does contain Naihanchi shodan, could have just added the other two.

Could also be just teaching things for comparitive analysis

But Isshin ryu hand kata are

Seisan
Seiuchin
Naihanchi
Wansu
Sanchin
Chinto
Kusanku
Sunsu