5 reasons why Yoga might be better than Tai Chi

[gt3]

Atleast 5 Good Reasons why Yoga might be better than Tai Chi
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The following list is just based off my own research and observations. It was merely written as an exercise for contemplation. It was not written to say that tai chi, when used responsibly, can't be just as great because ultimately tai chi and yoga are just tools and it is up to the individual practitioner to develop true character and respect by themselves.

The following opinions are however more to do with the common theme amongst non-masters of either art. These are what I believe happen on a realistic level. Of course, anyone can find fault in them on a mostly theoretical basis, including myself. I assure you I study both of these subjects objectively.

I still practice yoga AND taichi everyday. My apparent bias toward yoga stems only from my own observations thus far. I also find my practice of yoga greatly helps my tai chi practice (and perhaps vice/versa though I have yet to truely notice that as happening).

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1) Tai chi was created and practiced as a martial art. This, by definition, means it's rooted in violence. And in the mind the intent is on violence, be it offense or self-defense, we still have a real or imagined opponent. The word "opponent" appears many times in classic and modern tai chi books. It's even included in a lot of the "poems" about tai chi. There are those who are very into "taosim" who practice tai chi. Unfortunately, even though taichi has some taosist similarities it is not the same thing. And, in the west anyway, most students completely disregard any taoism in the art, instead favoring its fighting aspects and general principles.

(I also find it strange how taichi's principles clearly are UNnatural in the way that they try to retrain the human machine to handle itself in a fight. Nearly all tai chi students struggle greatly with being able to stay with taichi's principles of relaxation, yeilding, and so on, when actually in danger. I'm not sure how one could make the connection to "nature" in this case when it comes to tai chi)

Yoga is rooted in nonviolence, including non-violence to one's self. Yoga exercises are designed with complete non-violence to the body and mind. While it's true that tai chi's exercises are typically very gentle on the body, "testing" it requires inflicting physical violence on an opponent, and them inflicting it on you. In yoga the only opponent is your own mind's negative impulses. If these impulses were controlled by more and more people there would be less and less conflict in the world.

2) Yoga seems to appeal more largely to women (who are naturally "yin" and less violent) and tai chi appeals mainly to men (who are naturally "yang" and more violent). The people who practice tai chi as a martial art, more often than not, have a more paranoid view of the world, and while they claim to be balanced they still tend more toward yang, ego, agression... and generally become offended more easily (just read through this forum).

3) Peace begins with "you". If you're peaceful that's all you can do to create world peace. Of course, everyone in the world would need to do this to have true world peace, but it still starts with you. Unfortunately, violence, be it with martial artists or gun fighters, are often needed in our violent world to "keep the peace". Really this is a misnomer, as it isn't so much "keeping the peace" as it is stopping even greater violence from occuring. However, this practice often fails.

4) Tai chi alone isn't usually enough exercise for a non-elderly person. In the old days, the tai chi masters would work very hard labor jobs and then practice tai chi afterward and use it as both a tool for learning self-defense and for relaxation. In todays world of office jobs and generally sedentary lifestyles coming home after sitting at a desk all day to practice tai chi usually isn't enough excerise for the average individual, especially if they are trying to lose weight.

Yoga practioners typically wake up at least an hour before they go to work or school and do an invigorating yoga workout. This includes total body exercises that serve to strengthen, elongate and relax nearly every muscle, organ and joint in the body. You WILL sweat when doing an invorgrating yoga session far more than you would in a typical tai chi session. While tai chi can improve cardio conditioning when done in a low stance over a period of time, most instructors don't advise their students to do this, especially those with any kind of health problems (high blood pressure, bad knees, etc).

With yoga there are some contraindictions of course, but there's literally thousands of different asanas (poses). So much so that you can adjust and invent your own exercise routines as needed. You also can get a safe cardio workout in yoga even with bad knees! This is done via the flowing "vinyasa" where you link one pose directly into the next (much like flowing from one taichi posture to the next in the taichi form). With yoga you can include standing, sitting and even lying postures individually or flowing together. Of course with yoga you can chose to do only those poses which relax you. These calming poses are usually done in the evening as you're winding down before bed time.

Tai chi and yoga have the same things in common when it comes to health, only yoga goes even further. For example, tai chi works by activating the "meridians" through your feet, which in turn correspond to other parts of your body. It does this as you're standing and "walking" through the movements of the form. You also loosen most, if not every, joint in the body while doing the form. Yoga also believes in meridians (they call them Nadis) and each yoga pose is said to open them up so more energy flows through them. There's the concept of life force/chi in yoga reffered to as "Prana" and many breathing exercises (pranayama) and asanas to increase prana.

Yoga also has inverted poses, like downward facing dog and headstands, which gives your organs a break from gravity's constant pull on them. They also allow your heart to rest. This is not found in tai chi.

Tai chi students usually incorporate "Qigong" exercises, and often other things like external martial arts or even weight lifting, to supplement their tai chi training. On a side note, why don't any of the taiji classics mention qigong? Is it just me who noticed this? Perhaps i'm wrong. (and yes I am aware that tai chi itself is often considered to be qigong in itself, but this still makes me wonder why my tai chi books don't mention qigong, except the ones written in the last 30 years)

With yoga there are no supplements needed. Yoga is a perfect exercise (and whole life system) in and of itself.

As far as longevity, look at the biography of most tai chi "masters", of old and new, you'll notice they typically lived from 45-80 years. The largest percent probably living up to between 65-75 years. However, there are a great many instances of yogi's living well into their hundreds! Is it because they didn't have to fight? Is it because Yoga is a superior form of health exercise? Is it both or some other factors? Who knows.

5) Yoga teaches a philosophy that benefits your lifestyle.

Yogi's remind their students to have fun and even smile and laugh through both their workouts and their daily life. Look around, you don't see too many smiling tai chi guys. Why are they so serious anyway? They'll often claim they're not but the proof is in the packaging. I was looking at some photographs of yang cheng fu and his students and they have a very "I'm a thug, don't mess with me!" expression on their faces in every single photograph. Of course, they couldn't come off as potentially looking untough back then. But what is our excuse in modern/developed societies for being so serious?

6) Most taichi students these days are too busy arguing and debating over who's the real thing and who's a "new age hippy". There's a LOT of frustration and ill wishing toward eachother in the tai chi community, if you can even call it a community. Teachers often are just as bad when they should know better. Unforunately its often a marketing ploy by teachers to get students. The students then are basically brain washed and go on to act on this brain washing and try to convince everyone else of their beliefs.

I've found with yoga most people get along great. There are however some yoga teachers, almost exclusively in the western world, who act more like drill sergeants, shouting out commands and not a pupil in the room feels allowed to even smile! I call these people "alignment nazi's". Real yoga is personal, there's no one "right" way to do it. It's a personal growth tool. No one is ever forced to do or believe anything.



To me, the current state of taichi and yoga looks something like this:


Yoga
About half of yogi's practice yoga to get a good workout and improve their looks.

The other half of yogi's practice yoga for the spiritual aspects to become a better person.


Tai Chi
90% of tai chi students practice tai chi for health and/or as part of their taoist philosophy.

The other 10% practice it as a martial art, with some students still caring about health and philosophy.

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Let's remember though that yoga is thousands of years old and the yogi's always strived to love everyone and to not hold back any thing that could benefit mankind. While tai chi is perhaps only a few hundred years old and was (and still is by some) taught in a violent, secretive way.

If your goal is simply fitness/health and philosophy then Yoga is probably more suited to you. If you want health/fitness potential for philosophy and self defense, then tai chi is more suited for you (or most any martial art). I still believe that tai chi can and should evolve until we come to a place where theres less confusion about it. Unforunately, most who take the time to master the art teach that its perfect the way it is and changing it would only ruin it. Perhaps that's true and finding out what "it" really is is the real challenge and could take decades to really grasp. With yoga, a good teacher and your own daily practice and meditation, what it "is" and what you can do with it becomes apparent very quickly.

Yoga's goal is on Enlightenment. Tai chi's goal is on developing a great fighter, who will hopefully be skilled enough as to not have to ever hurt anyone. There's no substitute for enlightenment.

The more I write about this the more and more ideas I keep finding as to why Yoga is perhaps superior to Taichi (such as lineage issues and how much easier it is to find a qualified yoga teacher than a qualified tai chi teacher) but I think at this point it'd be easier to let what I've already mentioned being chewed on for a while and any further points could be answered to replies of this article.

[BackFistMonkey]

also see my post on comparing apples and oranges and how in the proccess I found that grapefruit is the Better Martial Art (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=361809#post361809) and then find out why I posted it on the Food Network Forum .

[gt3]

I hope others who post to this thread actually take the time to read my post (and not just the offensive seeming title of it) and contribute something of value so that others, and myself, might learn something.

[Matt_Bernius]

Without defining "better" this is somewhat interesting but utimately empty.

Your suggestion that enlightenment is the answer and therefore yoga is the better option is somewhat dubious. My own research seems to suggest that enlightenment is something gained by the study of something, not from the act itself. As such someone has as much of a chance of gaining enlightenment through diligent study of Tai Chi as they do with yoga.

So your concept of "better" really needs to be refined. What is the end game that you're using to compare against.

BTW I do agree that from a simly health (as in I study for health) yoga makes more sense for some of the reasons you've listed. However I'm not willing to admit that Yoga in a broad sense is any better or worse than Tai Chi.

- Matt

[gt3]

I could have just said this whole experiment is a "comparison" but seeing as how I was constantly pointing out how yoga seems to be superior in the comparisons i was making it seemed like I would only be saying that as to not offend anyone.

I did say in the beginnin of the post that i didn't think yoga HAD to be better than taichi, only that from a typical way as to how its generally practiced by "non masters" (and again from my own observations)

[BackFistMonkey]

but if you think about it you say that 5 reasons why Yoga might be better than Tai Ch
in the Tai Chi thread ... on a martial arts forum ... I am sorry if I think that may be silly and respond in kind . Yoga is not a martial art . Unless you are talking about Warrior Yoga via Quantum Ju Jitsu ...

Yoga is every you say it is and more while Tai Chi is everything you say it is and more also .. neither are meant to be compared ... and arent even close when it comes to their purpose except of course as general forms of motion and exercise ...but thats like saying the sword is meant to be used only as a form of excercise or that a baseball bat must be used as a weapon .

Which is Better : Baseball , Cheese Cake ,Or Yoga ?



nice post though I enjoyed the read and did read it before I posted the first time .

BackFistMonkey

[gt3]

not everyone here practices tai chi as a martial art. I dont claim that yoga is a martial art. this is more a comparison of the health/philosophy principles. This comparison makes sense since taichi and yoga are the most popular "alternative" forms of health/relaxation/fitness. not to mention coinciding with taichi's principles of avoiding conflict.

[Matt_Bernius]

I could have just said this whole experiment is a "comparison" but seeing as how I was constantly pointing out how yoga seems to be superior in the comparisons i was making it seemed like I would only be saying that as to not offend anyone.

But you're attempting to add up select comparisons and then arrive at a relative "better". It's a selective arguement that really can't be argued against.
I did say in the beginnin of the post that i didn't think yoga HAD to be better than taichi, only that from a typical way as to how its generally practiced by "non masters" (and again from my own observations)
But that doesn't mean anything.

It's easy to come up with arguments for or against anything. There are people who base whole careers on it. I just think in a case like this it's naval gazing that takes to long to get to the point (which is):

"From an exclusively health perspective Yoga is a better option that Tai Chi." - That's really what your thesis is.

"5 reasons why Yoga is better than Tai Chi." - Doesn't covey any of that.

And you also didn't address some of the infighting within the Yoga community about different styles and executions of yoga. That does go on. So there is some selectivity to the points you use.

- Matt

[gt3]

indeed, there are plenty of things i seemingly left out, however this isnt a thesis, its a web forum "rant". If i spent more than an hour on it i'd submit it as an article somewhere. I realized an hour into typing it that i could go on forever (because there really wasnt just one point, the points were growing exponentially) and i apologize for the manner it was sloppily put together. I probably shouldn't have just deleted it but i realized i was still making a lot of points that people might not have realized and thus might benefit from.

anyway, I hope we can still make this thread about those points and not just about what i should have named the title!

[BackFistMonkey]

I still dont think you can honestly compare the two .

* shrugs *

and thats that

sorry to bust out the sarcasm .......
:D

[gt3]

i think they can be compared on a non martial-art basis. We know there are many more millions practicing taichi only for health/spirituality than are for self defense

[MartialArtsSnob]

O.K. so what you are saying is:
1) Tai Chi people are into violence, yoga people love the whole world. Tai Chi is responsible for conflict in the world (If you train it as it was intended); yoga people don’t cause conflict.
2) Yin is better than Yang which means women are better than men are. The fact that this upsets me is proof.
3) Peace begins with you, but only if you do yoga.
4) Lazy Tai Chi people get fat because they don’t train enough, yoga people get up earlier and exercise their bodies properly. Prana through the Nadis is better than Chi through the Meridians because they stand on their heads. Tai Chi people need supplements, yoga is complete. Yoga people live to be 100, Tai Chi people die young.
5) Yoga people are smiley and nice, Tai Chi people are mean.
6) Yoga people get along, Tai Chi people are too ego driven not to hate each other.

To sum it up:
Yoga is older, open, and pacifist, Tai Chi is an infant by comparison, violent and secretive. Tai Chi is about hurting people and has little hope of teaching you the depth of understanding achieved through Yoga.

O.K. do I have it all? Have I followed you so far?

This is the sentence that I found most gripping:

“I still believe that tai chi can and should evolve until we come to a place where theres less confusion about it”.

This one made me laugh, I guess you could call it a self-evident truth.

“….and how much easier it is to find a qualified yoga teacher than a qualified tai chi teacher”

Keep looking and you might find one. I have always felt that good students and good teachers are naturally drawn to each other.

On second thought…………….. you should stick to yoga.

[updownandsmile]

personally i've done yoga and its great!! i love how it made me feel ... relax and calm ... hehe just not when i'm extremely tired and i fall asleep during the relaxation period ... newoo, i've been wanting to do tai chi ... when i was doing yoga i felt like i'm stretching my muscles and extending my mind to calmness ... love the pigeon & half-moon & downward facing dog poses ... unless ur doing that one type of yoga (i just had a brain fart ... 4got the name) where its like aerobics ... omg that is really strenuous!! there are many types of yoga ... but to me when i think of tai chi i imagine muscle strengthing more ... but don't take my word for it ... i haven't done it, yet, but hey if anyone has been thinking about yoga do it!! its an experience in itself =) **my yoga teacher even taught yoga to the lakers**

[Shadowdh]

Whatever you believe in bless you MAS... great post...

[gt3]

no MartialArtsSnob, that's not what i'm saying. That's what you're interpreting.

I do however deserve any kinda comments, negative as they might be, simply because that is the nature of putting yourself out there and i'm fine with it, i'd just prefer if there was some tid bits of useful information in them

[MartialArtsSnob]

no MartialArtsSnob, that's not what I’m saying. That's what you're interpreting.

I do however deserve any kinda comments, negative as they might be, simply because that is the nature of putting yourself out there and i'm fine with it, i'd just prefer if there was some tid bits of useful information in them

Great, here are some tid bits:

1. Passive aggression is aggression.
2. Another common theme among non-masters is THEY ARE NOT MASTERS!
3. The fact that you see the principals of Tai Chi as “Unnatural” might stem from you inability to as yet distinguish what is natural.

[Matt_Bernius]

however this isnt a thesis, its a web forum "rant".Even rants should have a clearly stated thesis as their basis:

thesis
1: an unproved statement put forward as a premise in an argument
2: a treatise advancing a new point of view resulting from research

If you're not happy with the "information" you are getting back it may be because you didn't state things clearly enough.

Again, I agree with the overall idea that Yoga may, in most cases, be more effective than Tai Chi if we are only looking on the health axis.

But your arguement goes beyond that. And it gets real shakey real fast.

- Matt

[gt3]

i already agreed that it was shakey but was hoping one would extract the useful points from it and discard the rest. However, it's impossible for people (on web forums at least) not to find the bad in everything and then splay it all out on the table for everyone to focus on.

[nzric]

I have conclusive evidence that tennis is better than yoga!

While yoga also uses sweatbands, it won't train you to hit tennis balls around the court. Baseball is better than yoga cause it teaches you to hit balls but because you use harder balls you won't be as good as hitting tennis balls as tennis players. Therefore, tennis is better!

Apples and oranges mate.

[gt3]

I was hoping people would contribute some useful replies, adding how certain things in taiji are better than yoga, and why. or proving anything i said as incorrect or SOMETHING of value to teach me and others, not just these silly attacks on the silly title of the thread. What a waste of time. I guess thats not going to happen. can i delete this this thread?

[Wu_W3i]

What you basiclly say is "Running is better for developing stamina than playing football" .. well yeah... Football players run too but they also tackle eachother.. so saying that running 4000m are better for developing stamina than playing football is indeed true but that doesnt say anythign about football as that sport is not about only running!

See my point? Taiji IS A MARTIAL ART. anythign else is a change form its original state, mostly transformed in hippe-smoking-crack movments during the 60's. Taiji does promote good health but thats not the reason Taiji exists, good health was a sideeffect discovered at a somewhat late stage in its history. I practice Taiji for health aswell as combat, but I dont do that by doing yoga like excersises that doesnt mean anything for combat, the combat is everywher ein Taiji and same for the health!

And Taiji promoting violence? Well yeah..ofocurse.. fighting is about using violence.. nothign wrong with that! Violence isnt neceserly a bad thing.. and form my experience most martial artists arnt easy to use violence even tho they can. It's just silly claiming that Yoga is better than Taiji cause Taiji is violent... !

[nzric]

Sorry, here's a reply I've spent a bit more time on:

Atleast 5 Good Reasons why Yoga might be better than Tai Chi

1) Tai chi was created and practiced as a martial art. This, by definition, means it's rooted in violence.
Capoeira and tae bo are also derived from martial arts.

Consider: most technological progress throughout history has been as a result of military research (i.e. necessity to perfect theories). Don't you think the same may be true for physical exercise?

(I also find it strange how taichi's principles clearly are UNnatural in the way that they try to retrain the human machine to handle itself in a fight.
As any taiji player could tell you, the hard part isn't learning tai chi movements, it's forgetting unusual/harmful movements you've trained into your body since childhood. Children and many animals use tai chi principles every day, but adults become rigid and tense and need to relearn natural movement.

Yoga is rooted in nonviolence, including non-violence to one's self. Yoga exercises are designed with complete non-violence to the body and mind.
So you're saying any non-martial art exercise (like bowling or tennis) is better than any martial art exercise?

2) Yoga seems to appeal more largely to women (who are naturally "yin" and less violent) and tai chi appeals mainly to men (who are naturally "yang" and more violent).
you obviously don't know some of the women I do!
So whatever appeals to women is by definition better than things that men like?

The people who practice tai chi as a martial art, more often than not, have a more paranoid view of the world, and while they claim to be balanced they still tend more toward yang, ego, agression... and generally become offended more easily (just read through this forum).
If you look closely at this forum, the discussions may be lively but that's because we're all passionate about tai chi. If someone disagrees with you you shouldn't take it personally, but this is a discussion forum and discussion often involves debate. Everyone should always be willing to listen and accept if they're wrong.

With my mod hat on, can I just remind everyone that insulting anyone or arguing for the sake of arguing is definitely against the TOC of the site, and it's called trolling.

number 3 has nothing to do with the yoga/tai chi debate

4) Tai chi alone isn't usually enough exercise for a non-elderly person. You WILL sweat when doing an invorgrating yoga session far more than you would in a typical tai chi session.
Tai chi is not simply forms. If you want more exercise there's always katas, many push hands drills, da lu, san sao, weapons forms, etc. which will definitely give you a good cardio workout!

Yoga also has inverted poses, like downward facing dog and headstands, which gives your organs a break from gravity's constant pull on them. They also allow your heart to rest. This is not found in tai chi.
Because, as has been stated in other threads, the view of many people is that this damages your health through improper chi circulation.

With yoga there are no supplements needed. Yoga is a perfect exercise (and whole life system) in and of itself.
Which can lengthen and weaken the muscles. Many yoga people have joint and muscle/posture problems because the emphasis is always on the stretch, not strength (just look at the difference between pilates and yoga).

Look around, you don't see too many smiling tai chi guys.
yes you do

I was looking at some photographs of yang cheng fu and his students and they have a very "I'm a thug, don't mess with me!" expression on their faces in every single photograph.
So you didn't consider this was a cultural thing or a reaction to having to pose unnaturally for a camera (which weren't too common at the time).


6) Most taichi students these days are too busy arguing and debating over who's the real thing and who's a "new age hippy". There's a LOT of frustration and ill wishing toward eachother in the tai chi community, if you can even call it a community.
Yes, tai chi has diverse schools and groups within groups. Tai chi people take it personally when a "mcdojo" opens up which is insulting true tai chi principles, but there's nothing wrong with trying to maintain the true meaning of the art for the sake of the future.

I've found with yoga most people get along great. There are however some ..."alignment nazi's".
Doesn't sound too utopian to me!

there's no one "right" way to do it. It's a personal growth tool. No one is ever forced to do or believe anything.
Tai chi players call that wu wei :)

[gt3]

interesting Wu_W3i, you came the closest to getting the point of this thread. Though it's a lil scary that you think violence isnt a big deal.

[Matt_Bernius]

1. Was there a point to this? As far as I read it boils down to:
Tai Chi - Martial
Yoga - Not Martial

As far as world piece, the first thing one would need to study is occurances of anti social behavior within each group. You assume that Yoga practicioners are inherently less violent than Tai Chi people.

It could be argued that Tai Chi folks have to be more violent because they practice a martial art. But the question is outside of the training hall, what is thier behavior?

Or are you simply stating that Yoga is better than all martial arts because of this factor? If that's you thesis than as others have pointed out Golf, checkers, and numerous other activites are far less violent than martial arts.

However, since you argue that many Tai Chi instructors don't teach the fighting aspect of the form, can you really state that there is inherent violence within thier activities? And if so what about war themed postures in Yoga?

2) Yoga seems to appeal more largely to women (who are naturally "yin" and less violent) and tai chi appeals mainly to men (who are naturally "yang" and more violent). The people who practice tai chi as a martial art, more often than not, have a more paranoid view of the world, and while they claim to be balanced they still tend more toward yang, ego, agression... and generally become offended more easily (just read through this forum).

2. Seems to suggest that people who practice Tai Chi as a martial art are worse people. Again, I think your survey size is way to small to draw this type of broac conclusion. Or what about a number of Yoga instructors who have been trademarking thier forms of Yoga and suing those who infringe on them. Clearly that is a paranoid and aggressive activity.

3) World peace is conceptually a wonderful thing, but difficult to achive, especially through non-violence. Again, I don't see how this informs your overall arguement. Are people who study yoga statistically less violent than those who don't?

4) While I agree that Yoga is a better total body exercise, I think some of your assumptions about the average yoga practioner are a little off. Most schools offer a single early morning program and lots of night programs. Why? Only dedicated yoga folk (who could be compared against the dedicated Tai Chi folks) get up and do a strenuous workout in the morning. That behavior based on school patterns is an exception, not the rule.

Also while its possible to get a cardio workout from yoga, if you survey most programs (at least here in the states) you'll find that cardio classes are in the minority. Typically most programs emphasize gentle Kundalini programs what are in no way overly strenuous. Trust me, I've looked. I'm still trying to track down a good Ashtanga teacher.

So while the cardio possibility is there, in the average, based on school surveys here in the states, it's a latent and typically underutilized aspect of yoga eduction (much like the conditioning in Tai Chi).

I'll skip the Qui Gong stuff because I tend to think it, as done in modern times, is mainly side show and quack type stuff and should never be separated into it's own category.

As far as life span, your summary is about an unscientific as it gets. And it doesn't take into account the numerous factors possible. Without side by side numbers I can't take it seriously.

As far as teaching of philosophy, it all comes down to teachers. I've met serious yoga practitioners and jester internal martial artists. As far as looking at photographs you've managed to totally disregard culutral values in your assumption. Especially the concept of "face" with is key to the Chinese. By your assumption the entire nation of China must be unhealthy because, until recently, it's considered in bad taste to show emotion in "offical documents." This, btw, is why most Asian athletes always look so serious at things like the Olympics. They're happy, but it would be considered a embarrasment of national proportions for them to show it.

As far as in modern society, why do you wear pants? Not a skirt? Because it simply isn't societally acceptible. There are cultural transformations happening, but they may never go as far as you might expect. More over there is no way of telling which way is the right way. I know people from China who are sad that western athletes break down on the stands because they are sure that they are embarrasing themselves in front of thier nation. They'd tell you we've got it wrong.

So there is fair feedback on your points. Probably not the type of stuff that you're looking for, but maybe you'll find something helpful within that.

- Matt

[gt3]

1. Was there a point to this? As far as I read it boils down to:
Tai Chi - Martial
Yoga - Not Martial

As far as world piece, the first thing one would need to study is occurances of anti social behavior within each group. You assume that Yoga practicioners are inherently less violent than Tai Chi people.

It could be argued that Tai Chi folks have to be more violent because they practice a martial art. But the question is outside of the training hall, what is thier behavior?

Or are you simply stating that Yoga is better than all martial arts because of this factor? If that's you thesis than as others have pointed out Golf, checkers, and numerous other activites are far less violent than martial arts.

However, since you argue that many Tai Chi instructors don't teach the fighting aspect of the form, can you really state that there is inherent violence within thier activities? And if so what about war themed postures in Yoga?

2) Yoga seems to appeal more largely to women (who are naturally "yin" and less violent) and tai chi appeals mainly to men (who are naturally "yang" and more violent). The people who practice tai chi as a martial art, more often than not, have a more paranoid view of the world, and while they claim to be balanced they still tend more toward yang, ego, agression... and generally become offended more easily (just read through this forum).

2. Seems to suggest that people who practice Tai Chi as a martial art are worse people. Again, I think your survey size is way to small to draw this type of broac conclusion. Or what about a number of Yoga instructors who have been trademarking thier forms of Yoga and suing those who infringe on them. Clearly that is a paranoid and aggressive activity.

3) World peace is conceptually a wonderful thing, but difficult to achive, especially through non-violence. Again, I don't see how this informs your overall arguement. Are people who study yoga statistically less violent than those who don't?

4) While I agree that Yoga is a better total body exercise, I think some of your assumptions about the average yoga practioner are a little off. Most schools offer a single early morning program and lots of night programs. Why? Only dedicated yoga folk (who could be compared against the dedicated Tai Chi folks) get up and do a strenuous workout in the morning. That behavior based on school patterns is an exception, not the rule.

Also while its possible to get a cardio workout from yoga, if you survey most programs (at least here in the states) you'll find that cardio classes are in the minority. Typically most programs emphasize gentle Kundalini programs what are in no way overly strenuous. Trust me, I've looked. I'm still trying to track down a good Ashtanga teacher.

So while the cardio possibility is there, in the average, based on school surveys here in the states, it's a latent and typically underutilized aspect of yoga eduction (much like the conditioning in Tai Chi).

I'll skip the Qui Gong stuff because I tend to think it, as done in modern times, is mainly side show and quack type stuff and should never be separated into it's own category.

As far as life span, your summary is about an unscientific as it gets. And it doesn't take into account the numerous factors possible. Without side by side numbers I can't take it seriously.

As far as teaching of philosophy, it all comes down to teachers. I've met serious yoga practitioners and jester internal martial artists. As far as looking at photographs you've managed to totally disregard culutral values in your assumption. Especially the concept of "face" with is key to the Chinese. By your assumption the entire nation of China must be unhealthy because, until recently, it's considered in bad taste to show emotion in "offical documents." This, btw, is why most Asian athletes always look so serious at things like the Olympics. They're happy, but it would be considered a embarrasment of national proportions for them to show it.

As far as in modern society, why do you wear pants? Not a skirt? Because it simply isn't societally acceptible. There are cultural transformations happening, but they may never go as far as you might expect. More over there is no way of telling which way is the right way. I know people from China who are sad that western athletes break down on the stands because they are sure that they are embarrasing themselves in front of thier nation. They'd tell you we've got it wrong.

So there is fair feedback on your points. Probably not the type of stuff that you're looking for, but maybe you'll find something helpful within that.

- Matt


Damn, you schooled the hell out of me :) I was kinda hoping for something like that because I was kinda in a "funk". (i'm not being sarcastic). I should have just kept the solid points i had and put a little more time into what i was posting instead of just throwing together some silly rough draft without rereading it a few times. I definitely learned my lesson and i wont do that in the future i hope

[Matt_Bernius]

I'm happy my comments mirror Nzric's. As for schooling the hell out of you... what can I say, I'm in a graduate program that trains people to be intellectual attack dogs. Same thing happens to me all the time. It's just recently I've been finding myself doing it to other people.

- Matt

[Wu_W3i]

interesting Wu_W3i, you came the closest to getting the point of this thread. Though it's a lil scary that you think violence isnt a big deal.

I didnt say its not a big deal, didnt say I like it either. But I do say its a natural part of being a human being, we been using violence for as long as we have existed. And violence does have a place in modern "civilized" (yeah right) socity imho, I would wihtout doubt use extreme violence acts to protect myself and those I love from danger. I think its good that we have police that uses violence to stop people from robbing/Murdering/rapeing eachother etc, even military violence I can see as good to some extents.. like using force to take out Hitler or Saddam and in that sence stopping greater damage beign done. But I agree its a hard area to debate and to think about..no real easy answers..

[daftyman]

I'm in agreement with what nzric has said.

For exercise, when I have completed an hour and a half of solid push hands da lu and sword fencing I am knackered. There's more to taiji than just the solo form.

I have also tried yoga (liked it, but no time to do any more). Prefer taiji though, but then I prefer apples to oranges. Wait, is that relevant to the debate? ;)

[gt3]

I'm in agreement with what nzric has said.

For exercise, when I have completed an hour and a half of solid push hands da lu and sword fencing I am knackered. There's more to taiji than just the solo form.

I have also tried yoga (liked it, but no time to do any more). Prefer taiji though, but then I prefer apples to oranges. Wait, is that relevant to the debate? ;)


The old 'no time to do it' excuse huh ;) You could get a very good yoga session done in the amount of time it takes to write the average 200+ word post :P

Anyway, i should have only posted this thread on a forum that has mostly people doing only the solo form (the taiji for health only people). Plus, people would have got this post more if they knew what true yoga was and didn't assume its just about physical exericse and tying yourself in a pretzel.

Another good point about yoga though is that you defintely can learn it just from videos and books and do it totally properly at home (just don't do the advanced breathing exercises, and certain advanced poses without a real instructor near by, but you never need to do these ever to be at a high level of yoga because yogi's arent judged by how flexible they are or which advanced poses they have memorized, in fact they're not judged at all! its all an inward experience, there are yogi's who are stiff as boards that have a deeper understand of yoga, and thus themselves, than the girl next to them on the mat in a full split. its a personal choice as to which style of yoga you practice and as to which poses/breathing exercises, etc you choose to learn) Another fun thing about yoga is that you never need a training partner.

But overall what i love about both yoga and taichi is you can practice them almost anywhere, anytime, without any one or any equipment.


(P.S. I don't have any problems with "New Agers". I'd rather have peaceful crazy people than violent crazy people!)

[AZeitung]

The people who practice tai chi as a martial art, more often than not, have a more paranoid view of the world, and while they claim to be balanced they still tend more toward yang, ego, agression... and generally become offended more easily (just read through this forum).


Well, when you make statements like that, of course we're going to be offended.

And try fending off an attacker with Yoga. I don't think that would work too well, although you might be able to freak him out a bit when he sees how flexable you are.

[gt3]

Yoga also has inverted poses, like downward facing dog and headstands, which gives your organs a break from gravity's constant pull on them. They also allow your heart to rest. This is not found in tai chi.

"Because, as has been stated in other threads, the view of many people is that this damages your health through improper chi circulation."

People really believe being inverted damages your health through improper chi circulation? Oh boy, this could be a whole thread in itself about how before modern science, people in china related chi to EVERYTHING because they didnt understand the many possible reasons for things. For instance, some guy with high blood pressure was probably doing an inverted pose and pased out. So the ancient chinese thought 'hmm must be bad for the chi' haha. Whereas modern medicine knows that inversions are GREAT for some people and DANGEROUS for others. I guess the idea of "contraindictions" weren't found in old china?

[Syd]

I've tried to stay away from this thread but I just had to chime on this one!

Yoga also has inverted poses, like downward facing dog and headstands, which gives your organs a break from gravity's constant pull on them. They also allow your heart to rest. This is not found in tai chi.

Thats incorrect but also it's totally irrelevent as comparing Yoga and Taiji is like comparing chalk and cheese. One is a martial art while the the other is a system of achieving Union ( Yoga = Yoke or union ) with Brahma through physical movement. There is a move in the Old Yang Style - Punch Down to Groin - which has the practitioner bend right down and place their fist on the ground inverting their heads and torso!

It's the most useless move in the form!

The other reason you won't find any other inverted poses in Taijiquan is because it's a martial art and not a physical method of worship! There is absolutely no use in fighting upside down trying to reach union with Brahma while two guys come at you on the street! This entire thread looking at Yoga comparitively with Taijiquan is fairly wasteful as the paradigms within which these systems exist are at best remote!

People really believe being inverted damages your health through improper chi circulation?

No they don't, because if they did this would show a total lack of comprehension of the concerns of incorrect Qi circulation which has absolutely nothing to do with being upside down, inverted, diagonal or anything else you care to do to yourself. The circulation of Qi is internal and not physically oriented; the person who wrote the above passage clearly does not understand that.

The end goal of both Yoga and Taiji are entirely different, the similarities are few; end of story. :rolleyes:

[TkdWarrior]

u know wat If you had talked about Health aspect.. then I m baised to Yoga... :-)
and those who thinks yoga is all about stretching, man do they need to get refresher.. :P
-TkdWarrior-

[Syd]

It should also be remembered that Yoga is so much more than what most people think of it as. Most people think Yoga is Hatha style but there are many, many different kinds of Yoga which have nothing to do with movement and body work. Raja Yoga, known as the King of all Yoga's is a pure meditation which required still contemplation and focus of the breath. Yoga is merely a catch-all term which encompasses a vast array of practices.

As to the idea that Yoga has greater health benefits than Taijiquan? I would wholheartedly disagree as Hatha Yoga has been shown to be detrimental to the health of many people as has Laya Yoga and certain other kinds like Ashtunga etc. There have been entire books written on these subjects.

Unfortunately this requires a discussion of Yoga which doesn't belong in the Taijiquan forum and so I'll refrain from speaking off topic.

[gt3]

tai chi has been shown hurt people's knees (when done incorrectly). It doesn't mean anything as long as the student/teacher is responsible and avoids these things. You cant really say yoga or taichi is detrimental, only the IMPROPER practice of either. MOst of the yoga debate is over how certain breathin exercises (when done wrong) can hurt you. Same goes for qigong/taichi though. Both yoga and taichi have contraindictions, thats why so many tai chi teachers dont advocate a low stance in taichi.

Check out yogajournal.com under the 'poses' section, it lists contraindictions for each and every pose

[Syd]

I'm sorry but the injuries caused by certain Yogic practices have nothing on a bit of structural misalignment in Taijiquan. I have already discussed these issues in another thread and it is my sincere hope that we can get back to discussing Taijiquan proper. Let Yoga be discussed in it's own forum.

[gt3]

I'm sorry but the injuries caused by certain Yogic practices have nothing on a bit of structural misalignment in Taijiquan. I have already discussed these issues in another thread and it is my sincere hope that we can get back to discussing Taijiquan proper. Let Yoga be discussed in it's own forum.

Do you know the name of the thread so i can read it please

[Syd]

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23782

[gt3]

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23782

Good thread...

I don't do any real pranayama myself. alternate nostril breathing was about the most i experimented with. It seemed like common sense to me that unnatural breathing techiques were dangerous. I wouldn't even want to practice them with a 'guru'. However this shouldn't turn anyone off to yoga because you dont have to do these pranayama. If any teacher is forcing you to you should just tell them you're not into it. If they still try to force you to then leave the class, no good yoga teacher would make you do anything, in fact you dont have to do ANYTHING in the class, you should be able to sit there doing situps the whole time without the instructor saying anything to you about it. The best yoga teacher i know "steve ross" wrote an excellent book on yoga called "happy yoga". He never forces anyone to do any dangerous poses or breathing and only talks of real yoga. In the book he tells you what to look out for in a good yoga teacher. He has a hatha yoga tv show on the Oxygen network called "inhale" every morning.

Anyway back to taichi. What i love about taiji is that not only are you never told to force or hold you breath but you're also meditating while you do it. Meditation is super super super important and unfortunately most martial arts either don't have meditation or they dont teach their students about it, and the ones that do often have NO idea what they're doing.

Also, taichi is overall far more safe than yoga is in general. odds of you pulling a muscle, dislocating a joint (especially shoulder), holding you breath or being too strenuous are far less likely than in the physical yoga's.

That being said i highly recommend both yoga and taichi to everyone. they both have a lot to offer and can complement eachother when done correctly/safely. I'll never quit either practice in my daily life. I find at the end of a taichi session i feel very serene, aware and my chi sunk and palms heavy and vibrant. And i find after a yoga session i feel lighter, taller, happier and my lower back and hip area is just open and in pure heavan. both are amazing and unique feelings that i could never give up!

[gurugeorge]

My worry about Yoga is the same as my worry about Taiji - how authentic is what's on offer?

To mention one puzzle: the Indian Yoga we're familiar with (static poses) seems to be a late mediaeval Indian invention (1700s?). Both Tibetan Yoga (Yantra Yoga) and Chinese Yoga (Daoyin), which often have similar poses, seem to go back earlier in their origins than Indian Yoga, but are moving forms of exercise (albeit slow-moving); and yet Ashtanga Yoga, the only extant moving Indian Yoga system, which claims to go beyond the familiar "traditional" (i.e. late mediaeval) Indian Yoga to something earlier, seems a bit dubious in its origins, to say the least (odd stories about old manuscripts rediscovered).

Mpre generally, there's the same danger of rubes being mulcted for something that could possibly be actually damaging. I saw an article in a paper a while ago about how doctors are seeing more and more people who have injured themselves through doing yoga - one automatically thinks "oh well, of course they weren't being taught properly". But how are we to know what "proper teaching" means in the context of Yoga, any more than we do in the context of Taiji, beyond obvious common-sense points like "don't strain"? What if even proper teaching is harmful (perhaps because, as I said above, it's just some late mediaeval Hindu fad with no solid basis in reality)? At least with Taiji you have the basic idea that, being originally a martial art, it wouldn't have functioned as a martial art if it had injured its practitioners!

Not saying I'm dead set against anything, just opening these questions up and taking a sceptical stance.

[gt3]

My worry about Yoga is the same as my worry about Taiji - how authentic is what's on offer?

To mention one puzzle: the Indian Yoga we're familiar with (static poses) seems to be a late mediaeval Indian invention (1700s?). Both Tibetan Yoga (Yantra Yoga) and Chinese Yoga (Daoyin), which often have similar poses, seem to go back earlier in their origins than Indian Yoga, but are moving forms of exercise (albeit slow-moving); and yet Ashtanga Yoga, the only extant moving Indian Yoga system, which claims to go beyond the familiar "traditional" (i.e. late mediaeval) Indian Yoga to something earlier, seems a bit dubious in its origins, to say the least (odd stories about old manuscripts rediscovered).

Mpre generally, there's the same danger of rubes being mulcted for something that could possibly be actually damaging. I saw an article in a paper a while ago about how doctors are seeing more and more people who have injured themselves through doing yoga - one automatically thinks "oh well, of course they weren't being taught properly". But how are we to know what "proper teaching" means in the context of Yoga, any more than we do in the context of Taiji, beyond obvious common-sense points like "don't strain"? What if even proper teaching is harmful (perhaps because, as I said above, it's just some late mediaeval Hindu fad with no solid basis in reality)? At least with Taiji you have the basic idea that, being originally a martial art, it wouldn't have functioned as a martial art if it had injured its practitioners!

Not saying I'm dead set against anything, just opening these questions up and taking a sceptical stance.


Interesting, but whose to say anything we do is "safe"? One second modern science/medicine says somethings good for you the next its bad (think jogging and eggs)

I think there are far more people who are only benefiting from yoga than the instances you hear of people getting hurt by it. Ultimately, you have to listen to your body and stay as close to 'nature' as you can. What's the alternative, to just not do yoga or anything because it might be bad for you? I believe some (probably most) stuff in yoga is not only not harmful but actually good for you and it's more important to investigate and weed out any of the bad stuff. Constant refining. Same goes for taiji, qigong, or anything.

[gurugeorge]

Interesting, but whose to say anything we do is "safe"? One second modern science/medicine says somethings good for you the next its bad (think jogging and eggs)

I think there are far more people who are only benefiting from yoga than the instances you hear of people getting hurt by it. Ultimately, you have to listen to your body and stay as close to 'nature' as you can. What's the alternative, to just not do yoga or anything because it might be bad for you? I believe some (probably most) stuff in yoga is not only not harmful but actually good for you and it's more important to investigate and weed out any of the bad stuff. Constant refining. Same goes for taiji, qigong, or anything.

I agree that over time things will sort themselves out - but that's a bit of a Darwinian process, isn't it? Surely it would be better, and kinder, to know now things that are authentically traditional (i.e. that have already been through their Darwinian process!). I mean, the school of hard knocks is alright for tough, sceptical people, but there are lots of gentle, gullible fools wafting about too. :)

[daftyman]

The old 'no time to do it' excuse huh ;) You could get a very good yoga session done in the amount of time it takes to write the average 200+ word post :P
...
Another fun thing about yoga is that you never need a training partner.
...
But overall what i love about both yoga and taichi is you can practice them almost anywhere, anytime, without any one or any equipment.
...
(P.S. I don't have any problems with "New Agers". I'd rather have peaceful crazy people than violent crazy people!)
You just try finding time when you have a full time job and you are trying to organise a wedding! only 5 days to go :eek: :love: (its all about priorities)

I'd say its more fun to play with others! :p

I like those last two points, although I can't do anything in my office.

[wutan]

no MartialArtsSnob, that's not what i'm saying. That's what you're interpreting.

I do however deserve any kinda comments, negative as they might be, simply because that is the nature of putting yourself out there and i'm fine with it, i'd just prefer if there was some tid bits of useful information in them


gt3,
I feel that basically you have submited a good post with lots of good comparisons.
It is true as you seem to be aware that Tai Chi Chuan is a Chinese Martial Art although it is not practised this way by many nowadays.
Tai Chi Chuan also has the nei gung aspect as part of its system (again not taught by many) which is working on internal organ strength as does Yoga (Yoke-Centre-To bring together).
and in many ways can get you the same result.
There were many Indian based martial arts whos practitioners also practised yoga as part of their system.
In Tai Chi philosophy we have Yin and Yang and must practise both to give us a balanced art.
In Yoga/Ayurvedic medicine we have Vata,Pitta and Kapha the three humors which again must be balanced to inorder to have good health and well being.

To quote a famous Tai Chi Master-'One may get there with Yoga,or one may get there with Tai Chi.But what does one do when someone tries to push you off your Yoga mat?'

Cheers,

Mark.

[soggycat]

Firstly it’s not helpful to compare Tai Chi to Yoga.
On what concrete criteria is this comparison made ?
As many have pointed out, it’s an Apples Versus Oranges argument.
But if you must let me go along with you a while.

You said Yoga is better than TaiChi but Yoga can’t save one’s life in a fight.
Is Yoga better in that case?

Taichi has been widely recommended by Western medical professionals as part of management of arthritis .
Not Yoga.

ALL TaiChi movements are natural.
Many Yoga poses require one to contort, twist and force oneself into uncomfortable poses .
Infact some ( Bikram Yoga) require you to do this in 38 Celsius heat.
Sometimes you stand on your head.
Other times , put your leg on your head.
How natural is that ?

TaiChi promotes relaxed, CONTINUOUS coordinated movement.
Most Yoga go from one static posture to another, often limbs twisted in ways that arteries/ veins are constricted
You can’t tell me the blood circulation as good as in Tai Chi.

To answer your question about why Tai Chi classics don’t mention Qigong.
Well that’s because Tai Chi is Qigong.
Tai Chi is moving meditation.

Your comment about why u don’t find Tai Chi guys smiling as in Yoga, is strange.
All the Tai Chi guys in my class are friendly and jovial.
If they smile more ( as in your Yoga class) mebbe they had one sniff of the incense too much
:)

I’d agree with you that Yoga people care more about their appearance than Tai Chi people.
May I offer a possible explanation?
Tai Chi folks care less about their looks because they have learnt to let go and detach themselves.
Non attachment is their spiritual goal.
Didn’t you say Yogis were supposed to be more spiritual?

You say “ Peace begins with you” .
And that’s true.
Someone also said “If you want peace , prepare for war. In war , prepare for peace”

I cannot agree with your comments about Tai Chi and Taoism.
One of the tenets of Taoism is the concept of non-action “Wu Wei”, which loosely interpreted means :
” Get the most output with the minimum of effort, and do it in a natural way”
This is also a Tai Chi principle.
Tai Chi is applied Taoism.

I suspect you had a poor introduction to the Tai Chi or have been misguided by someone who misunderstood the art.

If I might I’d claim 90% of the teachers in this world misunderstand Tai Chi and transmit this misunderstanding to their student.
It gets worse as this corruption of knowledge is transmitted to the next generation.

It is not possible to properly learn Tai Chi from a book, video or from some one who cannot use it in a fight.

Many Tai Chi teachers say they don’t like to fight , and hence they don’t teach the (original) fighting aspects.
The fact is they can’t and don’t know how to use Tai Chi in a fight. But still pretend to be Tai Chi Masters.
They can do the movements. It may have health benefits. But it has doubtful martial value.

But Tai Chi is not an easy art.
The adage in Chinese Martial Arts is that it takes 10 years for one’s Tai Chi to come out.
Meaning, it takes 10 years of study before one can use the full devastating power of Tai Chi.
Tai Chi Chuan is called “ Grand Ultimate Fist” for a very good reason.
Bagua , HsingI have shorter learning curves


Also Tai Chi is probably the most peaceful of all martial styles. It’s strategy is predominantly evasive, non confrontational, and uses opponent’s energy.
In fact it is difficult to use Tai Chi if an opponent didn’t strike first. Unlike Hsing I or most External styles tend to be very aggressive.


When seeking a Tai Chi teacher I personally would :
1.not learn from one who hasn’t learnt it for at least 10 years consistently.

2.not learn from one who can’t demonstrate he can use Tai Chi to throw someone a considerable distance, or issue a Fajin strike

3.not learn from one who has an obvious Ego problem or is hot tempered because it shows he has yet to “ conquer himself” therefore he has yet to master the true spirit of Tai Chi

4.not learn from one who has substantial understanding of Tao Te Ching principles, because it means he has mastered the “form” but not the “spirit”

5.strive to look for an old man/woman in their 60’s who can throw me effortlessly. It means they have definitely mastered it.

I don’t disagree with you on the merits of Yoga, but only when you compare it to Tai Chi
:D

[soggycat]

tai chi has been shown hurt people's knees (when done incorrectly). It doesn't mean anything as long as the student/teacher is responsible and avoids these things. ....


http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/01/13/1041990234552.html


By Alice Dembner
January 14 2003
As millions of tightly wound Americans take up yoga in search of tranquillity, flexibility and health, more and more are limping out of the lotus position, yoga teachers and doctors say.
Injury is becoming a significant part of yoga, particularly with the growing popularity of "power" yoga, a more athletic style in which participants move rapidly from one pose to another.

"Yoga can be dangerous to some degree, especially for someone like me who doesn't know what they're doing," said Steve, who tore a thigh nerve during a particularly intense stretch. "While I've done all kinds of sports, I wasn't prepared. Everybody was doing these double flips and I tried to keep up."
Sports doctors, chiropractors and physiotherapists say the surge in muscle and ligament sprains and disc injuries is similar to the wave they saw when the high-impact aerobics popularised by the actress Jane Fonda was nearing its height in the 1980s.
The growth in injuries is partly due to yoga's soaring popularity. Estimates of the number of Americans practising yoga range from 9.7 million to 18 million, with many taking it up to help with existing injuries.

Yoga is low impact, but that doesn't mean no impact," said Dr Nicholas DiNubile, spokesman for the American Orthopedic Society for Sports Medicine.
Teachers and doctors say much of the blame rests with participants treating yoga like a competition, in what some say is the antithesis of the true spirit of yoga.
Others say that demand has opened the door to poorly trained or aggressive teachers. While there is no licensing or official certification of yoga instructors, a group of longtime yoga teachers has formed the Yoga Alliance to promote a minimum of at least 200 hours of training for any instructor.
But some instructors see pain and mild injury as a means to greater flexibility or "openness", a philosophy espoused by some yogis and challenged by others as a rationalisation.
The Boston Globe

[FATSAN]

Maybe it would have been better to compare yoga with chi kung exercises. As i understand it chi kung exercises are for the sole benifit of promoting health in the same way that yoga is and therefore would make a better comparison.

Although in the west we normally only encounter chi kung practice with tai chi; i believe that in china these exercises exist outside of martial training and are practised for the same reasons that people in india practice yoga.

If you did not want to compare chi kung and yoga; I believe your original post could still be valid if you changed the title to something more along the lines of: If you train tai chi only for health; 6 reasons why yoga might be better.

Just my thoughts :)

[gt3]

holy crap i can't believe i ever thought this way. Was just glancing through old threads i started and i'm really seeing how much i've changed. What a difference a year makes :/

I don't really see much of a difference between taichi and yoga anymore and they can be of equal value when it comes to mental/physical/spiritual growth, when approached properly (with taichi of course having the added self-defense skills).

I've still been practicing both since i've started this thread. Yoga in the morning and taichi in the evening, good times :D

[Kalamondin]

I know what you mean about a year making a huge difference...but that's what practicing transformative arts like yoga and tai chi will do for you, eh? I've only dabbled in yoga in the past, so I'll stick to saying why I like tai chi so much.

I understand you've changed from last year, so if you like, you can consider that I'm writing to some hypothetical person who isn't you, and adding my two cents to answering the original question.

I've never considered that tai chi is NOT a transformative, spiritual, philosophical tradition (in addition to health and MA). I believe it is. Nor do I consider it a violent art. (Reader: "What?!? It's a martial art!!" Me: Wait a minute, keep reading.) They say there are many paths to Enlightenment and that there is no One True Way. Each person's path is their own, but I do believe that Yoga and Tai Chi can both be practiced spiritually, if that's the intent. Practicing tai chi doesn't mean it can only be martial or only be for health or only this or that.

Let me say clearly, I am training for martial mastery, self-mastery, health, and as a spiritual discipline. I'm not very far along those paths, but the farther I go, the more I realize that (for me) they are inseparable.

Violence: There's no denying that each and every movement in the form has a martial application, and most of them are quite nasty. Invidual people can be quite violent and lack the self control to keep from unnecessary violence. Tai chi, practiced in the earlier stages under certain teachers can look like a violent, competetive, aggressive, hard-style martial art. Really early on someone can learn an application and use it in a "hard" way (brute force) without knowing how to be song (relaxed) and combine hard with soft.

But the better skilled the practitioners are, the less injuries occur among training partners because all are able to listen effectively, stick, and follow to prevent injury even at high speeds. It's possible to be really fast, try for the hard shoves and pull-downs, and still be really gentle when the level is high enough that neither party has the advantage and both can stop on a dime.

Push hands is only dangerous when the ego stuff gets in the way. But tai chi, like Buddhist philosophy, invites non-attachment with the adage, "Invest in loss." That giving up the ego and the intense need to win allows the development and understanding necessary to do so. It's a paradox. I'd argue that by the time one is good enough to wipe the floor with someone using correct tai chi principles, on no longer wants to.

I started out as one of those martial artists with a relatively paranoid view of the world...stuff happened to me, it seemed reasonable. But my current understanding is that like attracts like: what you fear most tends to come to you. If one is afraid of violence or carrying a chip on their shoulder, it really shows and others like them tend to show up. So I started training push hands not because I thought it would make me able to defend myself right away but because I wanted to learn to control fear. In this sense, the study of martial arts can be a way of healing and a path for growth. Since training push hands I've become less fearful and less violent, even though my repertoire of nasty violent tricks has increased.

My greatest opponent is myself. When I come up against someone I can't handle it's generally because they manage to psych me out, put me off my center before things even get started. So tai chi teaches me how to be calm under duress--this is why I prefer it to meditation alone. I love the solo form and all forms of meditation--but the practical application of staying calm or in a meditative state while someone else is trying to knock me over is why I like it. Meditation can help bring balance when a crisis is past--but to operate in a meditative state DURING crisis? Can you imagine how cool that would be? :)

Still workin' on it...

[slomojo]

My greatest opponent is myself. When I come up against someone I can't handle it's generally because they manage to psych me out, put me off my center before things even get started. So tai chi teaches me how to be calm under duress--this is why I prefer it to meditation alone. I love the solo form and all forms of meditation--but the practical application of staying calm or in a meditative state while someone else is trying to knock me over is why I like it. Meditation can help bring balance when a crisis is past--but to operate in a meditative state DURING crisis? Can you imagine how cool that would be? :)


I just finished law school, and this is exactly the reason I do tai chi. When I am arguing a point and I manage to stay in the center I find when doing tai chi, I pretty much just don't lose the argument. If I allow someone to push me off that center, then I lose rather easily. I find I employ immensely different tactics when arguing from a meditative state rather than a combative state. In the first, nobody gets their feelings hurt and I win. I am much more empathetic, command more respect, and generally am able to find a solution that works for everybody. In the second, I hurt their feelings and I lose. I get agitated, don't command respect, and don't clearly see easy solutions. For me the martial aspect is barely a side benefit. In negotiations and arguments, tai chi kicks some serious ass. The push hands part of tai chi is particularly relevant to the art of negotiation, and every argument can be turned into a negotiation with the right frame of mind.

[Kalamondin]

Yeah, isn't it neat! I absolutely favor negotiation and mutual benefit, but absolutely cannot do it well if I've lost my center. My teacher has actually indicated that his standard for a good push hands bout with someone who won't take no for an answer is to engineer an outcome where no one loses and no one wins.

In my mind, it's a mark of true skill to be able to maintain your center so well while under attack that you can gauge the dynamics of a fight well enough so that no one loses and no one wins. I am so in awe of that... I think at that level the self has ceased to be an enemy...so it's not necessary to regard one's opponent as an enemy either and that helps maintain balance.

One time I successfully maintained my center with a visitor while my peers got angry. Another time, an aggressive beginner wiped the floor with me while other beginning students handled him just fine...and all because I lost my center.

[BackFistMonkey]

I havent changed that much .......

[Durkhrod Chogori]

u know wat If you had talked about Health aspect.. then I m baised to Yoga... :-)
and those who thinks yoga is all about stretching, man do they need to get refresher.. :P
-TkdWarrior-


Yes, they need a refresher and read a bit more about Hinduism (Vedas and Upanishads) and Buddhism.


I don’t disagree with you on the merits of Yoga, but only when you compare it to Tai Chi
:D

Hello,

Which Yoga?

Hatha, Pranayama, Kundalini, Kriya, Bhakti, Jhana, Mantra, Nada, Pashupata, Purna, Raja, Samadhi, Siddha, Shadanga...Which one???

Yoga is spiritual in essence, and so it was Taiji but this practice evolved into a martial art and today more as a health practice.


:)