The Real Story Behind the McDojo...

[Melanie]

Hello all,

Please check out the following URL and give me your comments:

http://www.ma-wired.com/mcdojo.html

[waya]

Amen, the truth is finally out

Rob

[pesilat]

Yup. That's the classic McDojo.

But ... what about the other kind of McDojo. The type where rather than learning to dance and calling it MA, they learn fitness and call it MA. Tae Bo (or other aerobic workouts using MA) can fall into this. But I've also seen schools where there *is* sparring ... but that's all there is and usually the "sparring" consists of being the punching bag for the instructor.

The instructor isn't *teaching* them anything. Anything they learn will be in spite of their instructor (i.e.: they'll figure out ways to prevent him from hitting them).

I'd consider this a type of McDojo also. In some ways better than the classic (at least the students will learn something about how to take abuse and walk away ... and *may* learn something about giving abuse to their attacker) ... but in other ways it's worse than the classic. I think this type of school gives the students an even bigger sense of false security.

Mike

[waya]

I wouldn't say either type is more dangerous to the student than the other, but neither really do what I would call promoting helth and well being. Alot of people are coming down hard on the Tae Bo type workouts since they have been taken out of context and thought to be a defensive art when all they are is Richard Simmons with an attitude :-) lol. I think this again falls under lack of public education on the arts unfortunately.

Rob

[pesilat]

Originally posted by waya
I wouldn't say either type is more dangerous to the student than the other, but neither really do what I would call promoting helth and well being. Alot of people are coming down hard on the Tae Bo type workouts since they have been taken out of context and thought to be a defensive art when all they are is Richard Simmons with an attitude :-) lol. I think this again falls under lack of public education on the arts unfortunately.

Rob

Regarding Tae Bo, I agree to a degree. I've never heard Billy Blanks say anything about Tae Bo teaching self-defense.

But at the same time, I have heard people who do Tae Bo say that they feel more confident in their ability to defend themselves if attacked (heard it said, in fact, on the infomercial for Tae Bo). The fact that no one teaching Tae Bo is correcting that assumption is, IMO, nearly as bad as the coach claiming that it *is* for self-defense.

So, yes, while it's a lack of education ... I think it's due in part to a lack of trying to educate on the part of the promoters and, while it's not *lying* ... it is deception.

Mike

[Chazz]

All i can say is WOW. That is the real truth behind what can happen in a McDojo. Its hard to read about someone who loves what they think is the martial arts and just about die because they were fooled.

[waya]

Mike,
That's what I am referring to. Billy Blanks caught alot of crap over it and said over and over again that it was just a workout, not a martial arts system but still people promote it as one. The responsibility for educating the public does mostly rest on instructors because there is really no other source of good info, but as you said, most promote their own thing and don't educate.

Rob

[Andy Murray]

McDojo made flesh.

I just wanted to say first of all that, I admire the humility of M.J. Harday in writing the article, and having the strength of character to start again.

[pesilat]

And here are some notes related to a McDojo taken to extremes.

http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups/chung/chung.asp

http://www.rickross.com/reference/chung/chung3.html

Most of you have probably already read things related to this ... but it remains a good reality check of what can happen in a worst case McDojo scenario.

In a way it makes the run-of-the-mill McDojo seem pretty tame.

Mike

[Freeform]

This 'Chung Moo' stuff, it makes you wonder how the hell people can be taken in and abused like that.

[Andy Murray]

When you are in it, you can't see it.

The Chung Moo thing sounds a little like a 'Pyramid' business model.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Freeform
This 'Chung Moo' stuff, it makes you wonder how the hell people can be taken in and abused like that.

Well, I can't personally understand it, but I've had it explained to me by several people who've been involved in related things (i.e.: abusive/manipulative relationships).

It starts out very slow and small and you think nothing of it. The next time it's a little bit bigger ... but it's only a little bit more than you've done/tolerated before. The next time it's a little bigger and maybe you even hesitate ... but the school (spouse, partner, whatever) is desperate and you don't want to be the one who causes it to fall apart. Before long, you're in so deep that, even if you realize what's happening, you're just as guilty as the perpetrators. If you try to leave they guilt trip you or even blackmail you into staying. At this point the only way out is with external help (going to authorities or whatever) ... but by now you're either too embarrassed to seek external help or you're afraid for your own safety (either from the school or the external help).

The people who usually (there are exceptions) get hooked by this have low self-esteem and at first they're just happy to be accepted into a group. Before long they'll do anything for the group. People like this are very unlikely to ever do anything against the group ... even if they take their blinders off and see what's going on.

People who've been involved in the MA for any length of time generally have a pretty good of self-esteem ... and therefore wouldn't likely fall into this type of thing (of course, there are always exceptions). But for people who don't know anything about MA ... especially people with low self-esteem who are *looking* for a group to belong to ... a group which promises to help build self-esteem ... it's a tempting proposition and easy to fall into.

Mike

[Chazz]

Is this Chung Moo Group for real? This is what gives martial arts a bad name. The more i read of that link that madder i got. What ended up happeing to that group?

[pesilat]

Originally posted by chazz982001
Is this Chung Moo Group for real? This is what gives martial arts a bad name. The more i read of that link that madder i got. What ended up happeing to that group?

Yes, unfortunately, they're for real. I'm not sure of all the details but Kim (the "founder/GM") and several of his top guys were brought up on charges of tax evasion (I think). There was a pretty big stink about it for a while but those who'd already been brainwashed, of course, believed that their precious Kim had been wrongfully accused and blah blah blah.

It eventually faded from any kind of regular press.

However, if you search for Chung Moo Doe, Chung Moo Quan, Oom Yung Doe (it's various aliases) on, for instance, Google (use quotes around the phrase: "chung moo doe") you'll see that there are still quite a few websites out there propogating it and, I would assume, schools teaching it.

Mike

[Chazz]

I have beed doin searches on that. It still bothers me. Ive e-mail a bunch of people about it. Im glad they got caught, stuff like this has to be stopped

[pesilat]

Originally posted by chazz982001
I have beed doin searches on that. It still bothers me. Ive e-mail a bunch of people about it. Im glad they got caught, stuff like this has to be stopped

Amen. Unfortunately, I would be willing to bet that, like most bad things, for every one found out, there are 2 or 3 (hopefully no more) that haven't been found out yet.

Mike

[Chazz]

Do you know if this group is still in action or if it has been shut down?

[pesilat]

Originally posted by chazz982001
Do you know if this group is still in action or if it has been shut down?

Well ... based on the fact that they have listed a "2002 Weeklong seminar" on http://www.oomyungdoe.com/ I would assume they're still in action.

Mike

[Chazz]

so they have just put its top members into jail but the org still goes on. There something right about that

[pesilat]

Originally posted by chazz982001
so they have just put its top members into jail but the org still goes on. There something right about that

The question, though, now is: are the current leaders of the same ilk of their predecessors? It's likely but not necessarily the case.

Though I must say that the text of that site still seems kind of suspect.

Mike

[Chazz]

Yeah the site is strangely done. It gives a wierd feeling reading over it knowing what went on. Ide like to know what then thing about Kim going to jail and if they follow the same guidelings as that one school.

[pesilat]

Originally posted by chazz982001
Yeah the site is strangely done. It gives a wierd feeling reading over it knowing what went on. Ide like to know what then thing about Kim going to jail and if they follow the same guidelings as that one school.

Skimming through the biography of Kim, they don't seem to even acknowledge that he was ever in trouble.

Selective amnesia.

Mike

[Freeform]

This stuff makes me sick! :woo:


Although I did find this interesting
The use of extraordinary Nae Gong energy to miraculously change the size of different parts of his body

:)

[Cooler]

Now why would you find that interesting Freeform, I wonder. Wait a minute your not talking about what I think you are talking about? ........you are arn't you.

Just because you could make your hands bigger doesn't mean you would be a better grappler.

Cooler

[Saz]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The use of extraordinary Nae Gong energy to miraculously change the size of different parts of his body
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sounds like an over-exaggerated male ego to me.. he wishes ;)

I can't believe people believe this bs!

Osu!

[Freeform]

No, silly, I was wanting to make my legs longer so I'd be a better kicker (I'm a short-arse).

Besides, I'm already a superior grappler ;)

[pesilat]

Ah hah ...

Here's the actual article that I was originally looking for related to the Chung Moo Quan stuff. This is the first article I read years ago about this thing and it scared me on so many levels it's not even funny.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/chung/chung1.html

Mike

[sisun]

glad i saw this, theres one of those schools near where i live

[E-Rocker]

They have a school in Seattle, too. Maybe half a year ago, they had a lot of advertising posters up around town. The claims in the ads seemed pretty unrealistic to me, but I can see how someone who only knows about martial arts from movies could think it's cool & get sucked in. We had one student who left our school to start training at theirs. I hope she's OK. I think one of our current students is a friend of hers, I can ask him to watch out for strange behavior.

[Kwajman]

Interesting, maybe we should send a mole in to infiltrate and then rat them out. :cool:

[Mark_Campbell]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The use of extraordinary Nae Gong energy to miraculously change the size of different parts of his body
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sounds like an over-exaggerated male ego to me.. he wishes ;)

I can't believe people believe this bs!

Osu!


i think he thinks he`s a ladies man, tempting them in with this incredible enlarging Nae Gong

lmao

[E-Rocker]

The more I think about how there's an Oom Yung Do school in my town, the more disturbing it becomes. You know how there's that group Klanwatch that watches out for white supremacist activity? Is there a similar group that watches out for cult activity?

[Shortfuse]

the link doesnt work here :(

[Adam]

There was a group dedicated to stamping out cultism. The scientologists bought them out :D

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

the link doesnt work here :(
That link was posted over two years ago; probably explains it.