I was "attacked" last night and.....

[semphoon]

Hello there,

Last night I was waiting for a bus in a in a rough area. As I was waiting, I was appoached by 4 "steet urchins" (boys) of about 13-14 years old. They were drunk and agressive.

The ring leader asked what I was staring at to which I repiled "nothing." He was in my face pointing and telling me that he'd waste me.

They left for 2 minutes only to come back and start this over again.

Now two of them were in my face and being agressive. All this time I was backing off and asking them to back off which they didnt. I asked them to put their hands down and stop gesticulating in my face (I didnt actually use these words as they would not have understood). Then the ring leader punched me, bleeding my lip. I again asked them to back of and stay away which they didnt. They kept advancing. I then did a teep (front push kick) and one of them did a backwards roll for about 6 feet. And then I got the ring leader with one. Luckily the police came at this point and the scum ran off.

The reason that I didnt punch is I do boxing so I know how to punch, Im about 200lbs but only 5'7'' and its muscle (I was more shocked by the fact that they had chosen me than actually getting hit) so I would have taken someones head off. With this in mind I thought that a kick would keep the distance between me and them.

This experience lead me to ask myself a few question.

1. Was I right to do what I did?- Should I have moved to another bus stop when I was approached the first time? Should I have ran away when I was approached again and punched?

2. I understand the legal concept of reasonable force. How does this work in a preemptive situation?
Also, how would this work for a "submission" moves? Are you allowed to break/choke out if you are being attacked. What about when there are multiple opponents?

3 I choose to kick to get distance between me and them. It worked like a charm the first time (I still laugh as I see the image in my head of the guy rolling into a ball). The second time I skipped into/stepped into the kick to cover the distance but this kick was not as effective as the guy knew I could kick. I have told you the reason why I didnt punch. What would you have done?

Thats all,

James Sharkdance
:p

[iamraisen]

i think you did well mate. what you did definately classified as reasonable force under UK law. most impressive was the fact that you kept your cool the first time - i would have started breaking some skulls :D

reasonable force is completely dependent on the situation. assault, battery or ABH is what could have been expected from them in this situation and so they would be classed as reasonable to use against them. submissions are slightly different though. for example an armbar which broke the arm would be classed as ABH, but if the bone punctured the skin it goes up to GBH which is excessive in that kind of situation. the same with choking- you may have trouble legally if they suffered a blood clot, or even died, as a result of your actions, but if tey just passed out it would be fine.

the second time they came i would have presumed the worst and KO the first guy who came close then go straight for the second aggressor. i reckon at that age they would have just ran off. how old are you btw?

[Freeform]

Hey Mike,

You did the right thing mate, and I know you could take my head off with one of those spades you call hands, so a 14 yr old neds going to take flight :D

1. If they were older and more capable, I might have legged it. The problem here being that any nonce can be tooled up, regardless of age.

2. Legally speaking, if I broke someones arm I'd leg it and not hang around. The choke option only really works if you can keep the 'chokee' between you and his mates whilst you work it. If you do get lifted for gods sake don't tell them I showed you how to break arms ;)

3. I'd have punched their lights out because I'm not as nice as you ;) But then I can't hit as hard as you anyway :p I'd probably used some off-balances as well to push them into each other. Depending on how I was faring I'd teach them a lesson or leg it.

[aikiMac]

In my book you did the right thing. I like to think that I would have done much as you did. (I've never been in that situation.)

The question is one of morality -- right versus wrong. Some vocal people, both politicians and voters alike, do not believe that you should have defended yourself. You should have taken the beating because self-defense is not a human right. To that I say a bunch a swear words.

You acted well. Good job. I hope that I can do as well when my day comes.

[YODA]

You did the right thing mate. You did all you could to de-escalate the situation and it worked.

Alas - I'd have smashed the guy who punched into about 14 pieces :(

[Krazy5051]

Yea, welldone. I thought you handled yourself perfectly.

yours in martial arts,

Kid

[semphoon]

It was just afterwards that I thought about my MA training. Ive done TKD, boxing, kickboxing and a bit bjj.

I DONT WANT TO TURN THIS INTO A STYLE VS STYLE BUT....

For the bjjers out there, how would they have dealt with the situation? I mean against multiple opponents in self defense. I imagine that you would not go to ground. So you would strike instead.

I really didnt want to ask this question, how does bjj equip its students with self defense skills against multiple opponents. *Im not getting at/devaluing bjj as its currently my favourite MA. I was wanting some input on this so we can discuss and not "slag off"

For example, in TKD (which is what I would consider my "base" MA) we spar against multiple opponents so there are a few skills such as lining the opponents up so at any one time you are only fighting one guy who is blocking the other guys. Also getting one opponent in a choke and using him as a sheild.

Please add to the discussion and not TKD/BJJ is crap TKD/BJJ is much better.

Ta.

[tl Eric]

You sound like you handled yourself really well, distance was a great idea. Ignore me if I'm getting too hypothetical and I'm not trying to say you didn't do well but if urchin #1 had a knife it could have turned out pretty ugly, which probably would have made running the better option. Of course there are alot of variables that then would have come into play eg, was he hiding the knife or showing it, I was just wanting to know what you think you would have done if that was the case, or if you thought about it while it was happeneing?

[Freeform]

Like I said previously, using off-balances to move them into each others way.

A common misconception about grappling is that the grappler will wrestle you to the ground, we can also throw you into your mates ;)

And if an experienced grappler wants to break the 'grapple contact', they can do that too :D

[YODA]

I recently ended a possible two on one encounter - albeit before No.2 had twigged what was going down - using grappling against a guy throwing punches.

Weave, clinch, take back, suplex, BOOM! Guy No.2 decides to re-evaluate his desire for some of the same.

Non-Grapplers often assume that go down means stay down.

[Freeform]

I recently ended a possible two on one encounter - albeit before No.2 had twigged what was going down - using grappling against a guy throwing punches.

Weave, clinch, take back, suplex, BOOM! Guy No.2 decides to re-evaluate his desire for some of the same.

^^^Another thing lots of folks foget is how quickly an experienced grappler can pull things off ;)

[YODA]

^^^Another thing lots of folks foget is how quickly an experienced grappler can pull things off ;)
Yeah - pull things off - limbs for example :D

[semphoon]

You sound like you handled yourself really well, distance was a great idea. Ignore me if I'm getting too hypothetical and I'm not trying to say you didn't do well but if urchin #1 had a knife it could have turned out pretty ugly, which probably would have made running the better option. Of course there are alot of variables that then would have come into play eg, was he hiding the knife or showing it, I was just wanting to know what you think you would have done if that was the case, or if you thought about it while it was happeneing?

The area is rough so when this happened I was not surprised.

I did consider the fact that one of them might have a knife. To be honest, if they had a knife I would have run. I just hope that I would have seen the knife before if was in me.

I was delighted with the presence of mind that I had. ie- check for knife, keep them all in front of me, try to keep distance, defuse the situation verbally.

I was also strugging if I should hit them or not. I mean, I can take a punch....ive fought in heavyweight full contact kickboxing so a punch from a 14 boy is not going to do much to shock me. What made me strike and get ready to was advice on MAP about the myth about waitiing for a strike before you unleash. I know that I was actually stuck first :p but it seem that TO ME I justified it to myself (as I say I was not hurt by the punch so do they really deserve to be hit?)

My only concern is that these areas have a network of people all linked, so the fact that I hit these guys their bigger brother, cousin, dad could be the next one I face.


:eek:

[YODA]

If you want to avoid this type of thing there is an important lesson to be learned here....

Last night I was waiting for a bus in a rough area. That's the most important part of the scenario to address.

[semphoon]

I recently ended a possible two on one encounter - albeit before No.2 had twigged what was going down - using grappling against a guy throwing punches.

Weave, clinch, take back, suplex, BOOM! Guy No.2 decides to re-evaluate his desire for some of the same.

Non-Grapplers often assume that go down means stay down.

Thats the thing- I didnt want to come across as "BjJ meanz that u r on da ground so howes that gonna help u" My bad.

Another thing that I was considering....unleash a punch to the ring leader and when the others see his face fly off they might leg it.

[semphoon]

If you want to avoid this type of thing there is an important lesson to be learned here....


That's the most important part of the scenariop to address.

Its tough when you LIVE in the bad area :p

[Freeform]

The 'wait to get hit' thing about most MAs self-defence is mostly taught by people who have never been there, if they had they would realise how hard it is (not impossible) to block a strike is whilst your trying to keep check of his 3 mates and the fact that your legs have gone all wobbly with adrenaline.

You have to justify a pre-emptive strike to yourself before a confrontation occurs, that way the moment you feel threatened, is the moment you defend yourself.

Sounds easy doesn't it :rolleyes:

[YODA]

Another thing that I was considering....unleash a punch to the ring leader and when the others see his face fly off they might leg it.
That's probably what my reaction would have been. A good hard leg kick would probably been the weapon of choice. Last time I did this the guy went into shock and his partner in crime legged it and left him there twitching :eek:

[ShadowHunter]

I am only 15. I've started taking Ninjutsu and have been doing so for about six maybe eight months. Laws in the UK would class what you did as reasonable force because, as far as you've said, you didn't actually break anything etc so it's not GB or ABH.

Most people would probably have said what you did was wrong but I say well done! You kept your cool and used what you learned without loosing your head and trying to kill them, even with a bleeding lip, which i'd find hard to do.

As a Ninjutsu 'artist' we do learn how to handle against multiple opponents and most of what i've been taught, so far, is how to take down your opponent in a safe, quick and easy way whether it's by a throw, lock, flesh hold, grapple or anything other than. Well done to you again for keeping your distance and your head.

[Freeform]

Another thing that I was considering....unleash a punch to the ring leader and when the others see his face fly off they might leg it.

Did this in a 3 on me a couple of years back, right cross to the ring leader who happened to be in the middle (well he have to be, wouldn't he :rolleyes: ), turned to give the guy to my left a thrust kick and waiting for the last guy to jump me......... only to see him doing the 100 yard dash :D

[YODA]

You have to justify a pre-emptive strike to yourself before a confrontation occurs, that way the moment you feel threatened, is the moment you defend yourself.


Dunno what the law in Scotland on hitting first is but English has this on record...

Lord Griffin said, in applying the use of force to the question of self defence...

"If no more force than is necessary is used to repel the attack such force is not unlawful and no crime is committed. Furthermore, a man about to be attacked does not have to wait for his assailant to strike the first blow or fire the first shot, circumstances may justify a pre-emptive strike."

[semphoon]

Lord Griffin said, in applying the use of force to the question of self defence...

"If no more force than is necessary is used to repel the attack such force is not unlawful and no crime is committed. Furthermore, a man about to be attacked does not have to wait for his assailant to strike the first blow or fire the first shot, circumstances may justify a pre-emptive strike."

Thats great. Thats exactly what I was looking for. Add you have the referrence so I can tell this to people and ill look like the intelligent one :P

[Freeform]

....ill look like the intelligent one :P

:p

We can do some 2 on 1 on Friday if you want ;)

Me and the doc can wait behind the door and jump you as you com in :D

Yoda, a bouncer mate of mine did make the prosecution cry on 2 seperate occasions wrt a pre-emptive stirke with the pharse,

"I was in fear of my safety." ;)

[Yukimushu]

Weave, clinch, take back, suplex, BOOM! Guy No.2 decides to re-evaluate his desire for some of the same.



lol you suplexed a guy? :D EXCELLENT! :D I'm not supprised Guy No.2 re-evaluated after he watched his buddy get suplexed!

Thankfully I haven't been put in a situation where what i've learned has needed to be excersized. I've been quite lucky at avoiding a few situations.

[GojuKJoe]

i think the best thing to do in that situation, would be to actually punch the ringleader, to knock a bit of fear into him and his friends, rather than just push them away, i mean, if the police didn't come, would they have still ran away, or would they have gotten more violent? You did handle the situation really well though.

[old timer]

Reasonable amount of force doesnt even come in to it when three attack one, as far as I am concerned self preservation at all or any cost is the key issue here I would of gone into full contact kickboxing mode with knees and elbows with throat strikes and eye gouges being a personal favourite, like I said it is self preservation at any cost. I was once attacked by two blokes and one of these blokes pressed charges against me, three court apperances later...............

[GojuKJoe]

Reasonable amount of force doesnt even come in to it when three attack one, as far as I am concerned self preservation at all or any cost is the key issue here I would of gone into full contact kickboxing mode with knees and elbows with throat strikes and eye gouges being a personal favourite, like I said it is self preservation at any cost. I was once attacked by two blokes and one of these blokes pressed charges against me, three court apperances later...............

yeah that's a good way to look at it if you're up against someone really dangerous, but in this situation, he was up against 14 year old boys, who he knew he could destroy if he wanted to.

[Judderman]

A simple way of finding out if you did the right thing is to examine whether:
a) Are you unhurt (a bloodied lip doesn't count :D)
b) Are you sat at home, not in a prison cell serving a sentance?

If the answer is "Yes" to both these questions then you did the right thing. As with everything there will always be room for improvement, but you will never be perfect as there are too many random factors to take into consideration in these situations.

For more information on Self Defence Law, check out the links in the Self Defence FAQs (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22153). :)

[semphoon]

was up against 14 year old boys, who he knew he could destroy if he wanted to.

That was an issue. So even though I had been hit, it didnt hurt so I wasnt sure if I should have let fly

[Hannibal]

As far as I am concerned you showed great restraint and I applaud you. Certainly I would have flattened him the first time, but my line is drawn a lot shorter than most people's - and I really SHOULD know better!

The pre-emptive strike is still a bone of contention amongst people and I have to be honest my colleagues do not often help matters. Simply put, you can do whatever is necessary and appropriate to end the situation.

One punch K.O. is fine - one punch K.O. followed up with a stamp is not!

[GojuKJoe]

yeah, i suppose i would have just done the same as you. i mean, with no weapons, they wouldn't really be much of a threat, especially to a trained martial artist/fighter

[Lucius]

I'd say you did well mate. After all, you are in one piece, not facing a court case and it appears even the neds got out of it pretty much ok.
A win-win all round, IMO.

You possibly should have thought about walking to a different bus stop though.

Your dilemma over how to react reminds me of my last street altercation, which happened right outside the front gates of my work, in full view of the security guards and cameras.
Despite beinig grabbed and threatened with a set of gardening shears, I still didn't react. Bizarre.

[tommy]

yeah, I think you did the right thing...but I have to ask...how is it that this kid was able to punch you in the face...? Did you not see it coming? Why didn;t you block and strike immediately at that point?

[cybermonk]

You did pretty good although they did touch your face which is irritating.

[semphoon]

yeah, I think you did the right thing...but I have to ask...how is it that this kid was able to punch you in the face...? Did you not see it coming? Why didn;t you block and strike immediately at that point?

Didnt see it coming. So could not block. And if I had blocked it I would not have struck as I would not have been in pain (as I have said even though I was punched I was not hurt so was still not sure if I deserved to hurt them....Im just too nice a guy I guess :p)

[GojuKJoe]

i say, if they want to go around starting fights with strangers, they have to be prepared to accept the consequences, whatever they may be.

[Sever]

Sounds to me like you handled yourself admirably, I doubt many people, myself included, would show such restraint.
I was in a similar situation a few months back (although my "attackers" were two bored suburban wannabe chavs rather than teenaged hard cases) who stopped me in the street and asked me to get them some beers. I was in a hurry, so I told them no, then one of them got right in my face. I'm 6'1, he wasn't much shorter and his mate was sneaking round to my right, first kid gave me some more verbal along the lines of "get us some beers or we'll do you," so I headbutted and legsweeped him, before giving his mate a quick backfist. The backfist was just a "stinger" to give him something to think about while I checked the first brat wasn't getting up for any more, but it was still enough to make him run off and leave his mate at my feet :rolleyes: What is it with these people? I'd never leave one of my friends to take a kicking
I'm gonna have to start lifting some really big weights - I wanna be able to suplex a grown man like Yoda can! :D

[shotokanwarrior]

I'd have punched their lights out because I'm not as nice as you
I would have Edit: Shook their hand and gave them a sweetie

(I've just learned that phrase and I absolutely love it, can't wait to use it somewhere)

[YODA]

I would have Edit: Shook their hand and gave them a sweetie

(I've just learned that phrase and I absolutely love it, can't wait to use it somewhere)
Well make sure it isn;t on MAP :woo:

[shotokanwarrior]

Aw, Yoda...I LEARNT IT on MAP

[YODA]

Aw, Yoda...I LEARNT IT on MAP
Where?

[GojuKJoe]

Where?

someone is in trouble......

[shotokanwarrior]

Here.

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21985&page=5

[YODA]

Here.

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21985&page=5
Thanks, all clean now (Ya grass!)

*Puts away dustpan and brush

[old timer]

but in this situation, he was up against 14 year old boys, who he knew he could destroy if he wanted to.
Look at it two ways.

1) You are doing the little 14 year olds a favour, it will make them stop in their tracks and think a bit more carefully in future in who they pick on.
Dont forget this " Young yobs, thugs & criminals grow up in to older yobs, thugs & criminals " their victim today a guy on his own at a bus stop, their next victim could be your mum or gran, think about it, nip it in the bud.
2) Regardless of their age they knew exactly what they were doing, blame it on TV or the system or lack of discipline from there parents who are probably worse than they are ( I have seen it all before ) we all choose our path in life some folk need putting back on track.
3) No weapon was used this time but how do you know that out of the three one of them did not have a knife in his pocket and in a split second could of produced it and stabbed you, too late to be sitting on your cloud reflecting on " I wish I would of used Old Timers advice and destroyed the vermin "

I would not hesitate or think twice about dishing out punishment to these thugs, I would happily play judge, jury and executioner, I feel so strong about the lack of law and order.

[semphoon]

Thanks, all clean now (Ya grass!)

*Puts away dustpan and brush

LOL@ ya grass

[GojuKJoe]

Look at it two ways.

1) You are doing the little 14 year olds a favour, it will make them stop in their tracks and think a bit more carefully in future in who they pick on.
Dont forget this " Young yobs, thugs & criminals grow up in to older yobs, thugs & criminals " their victim today a guy on his own at a bus stop, their next victim could be your mum or gran, think about it, nip it in the bud.
2) Regardless of their age they knew exactly what they were doing, blame it on TV or the system or lack of discipline from there parents who are probably worse than they are ( I have seen it all before ) we all choose our path in life some folk need putting back on track.
3) No weapon was used this time but how do you know that out of the three one of them did not have a knife in his pocket and in a split second could of produced it and stabbed you, too late to be sitting on your cloud reflecting on " I wish I would of used Old Timers advice and destroyed the vermin "

I would not hesitate or think twice about dishing out punishment to these thugs, I would happily play judge, jury and executioner, I feel so strong about the lack of law and order.

yeah, i do agree with you partly, but they're just kids. i don't think going all out in the way you said would be the right thing to do here.

[tekkengod]

yes they are young but i agree with old timer. those kids aren't going to stop victimizing people unless someone shows them how quickly the hunter can become hunted. i had a 2 on one conflict a few weeks ago and its a perfect example.
i was outside the arcade {back of the mall} and 2 guys whom i had slaughtered in tekken came up and said "next time" and i said "next time learn the basics" he totally lost it and came at me with a fight cross, i simply leaned out of the way and kicked out his left leg and came around with a heel drop to the neck, his friend tried to take advantage of my back being turned and attempted to choke meso i did a basic judo throw but didn't release the arm and pulled him into a downward bow strike to the face. his face broken a bleeding he stumbled back and nugged his unconcious friend. he wouldn't budge so the guy ran off. i called the paramedics in reguards to the unconcious man. turns out he was fine, just out cold. yes the police got involved and went to court. but it was ruled as sefl defense, and nothing came of it. {plus in texas theres virtually no restrictions on force in defense}, as far as i'm concerned. anyone who dares to attack me can take the full effect of the consequences.

[JKD_forever]

i think you did well mate. what you did definately classified as reasonable force under UK law. most impressive was the fact that you kept your cool the first time - i would have started breaking some skulls :D

:D :D Yes i agree, i don't think i would be able to hold myself at such situation, i wouldn't take someones head off however, there are different levels of punching, i would punch anyone who came that close to my face, hell, he couldve cut u with knife if he jad one and you woudlnt know until too late,
those *****s deserved a punch in the face because they can do that again to someone and die if u know what i mean :D

[GojuKJoe]

that's all well and good, but we're talking about a 23 (ish) year old man against some 14 year old kids. him beating them up, would no doubt not turn out very well in court. (this is in reply to tekkengod)

[YODA]

that's all well and good, but we're talking about a 23 (ish) year old man against some 14 year old kids. him beating them up, would no doubt not turn out very well in court.
True - even common assault (Section 39) can turn into a more serious offense if it comes under the Children and Young Persons Act - and it will at 14.

[JKD_forever]

There are different level of beating i am prepeared to deal :D

[semphoon]

There are different level of beating i am prepeared to deal :D

I was thinking about this afterwards. I came to the conclusion that I cant punch half force without losing speed (1/2MV2 etc) so after years of training to punch with full force, its all I can do. C'est le vie.

[Scarlet Mist]

Well, if it was me I'd have run. Anyone confident enough to attack me must have a gun or guns, no matter how drunk they are :D , besides, most criminals have guns these days. I don't know if it was wise to stick around after they came once. Personally I'd have gotten too scared if they came back a second time and one of two things wood happen, I would a) Freeze b) Flip out and go Buck Wild on those guys and murder everything in sight.

[shaolin_hendrix]

I think you should have wasted them to teach them not to do that crap anymore. I think you should have taught them about the "glass jaw" to show them that they weren't as tough as they thought.

[Scarlet Mist]

I think you should have wasted them to teach them not to do that crap anymore. I think you should have taught them about the "glass jaw" to show them that they weren't as tough as they thought.

But what if one of them pulled out a 44 on you?

[pgm316]

You did the right thing mate. You did all you could to de-escalate the situation and it worked.

Alas - I'd have smashed the guy who punched into about 14 pieces :(

Similar thing happened to me Friday night. Must admit I didn't try too hard at talking it down there was three of them and there didn't seem much point talking. So as soon as I saw one move I got the first punch in, grabbed the seconds head slammed it into a wall. Kicked the third in stomach, walked up some stairs and he came after me and grabbed my shirt. So turned round and kicked him in the face. Sadly my top got torn :cry: Really felt like giving them another kicking after that but I was kind :D

I don't think they deserve any chance. I know theres legal implications but I'm still on one piece, so I say pre-empt if you think you can end it! :bang:

[Jason Simpson]

I think you handled it really well mate, i'd like to think i'd do the same but i probably wouldn't.

[azra]

hey man, you did great. if it were me ad have taken some heads off in fit of rage. I must say your one tolerant guy. that first punch would have been enough to set me off!

[NaughtyKnight]

Hi,
I think that you handled yourself very well. In regards to the law, I have been researching this very topic. What I've found is that aslong as you didnt start the fight you may defend yourself completly, that means that you may knock the attacker down, but asoon as they are in a postion where they can no longer cause you harm you must cease the attack straight away, otherwise its you that will be facing charges.
In regards to retaliation, If you do find yourself face to face with someone looking for revenge, either leg it if you find the situation beyond your control, or cause some serious ultra violence on the recipient. I assure you that after that, you will no longer have to worry about any one from that network giving you trouble ever again.
I was in a situation where i was attacked on a train by this "street urchin" for looking at him. He threw 2 very powerful punches which broke my nose. I steped back, whiped away the blood, and got myself ready for the next attack, he threw another punch which he stepped into. I moved off the line of attack and did a back side kick to inside of his knee. He droped imediately. I then proceeded to leg it.
A few days later I saw the same guy. Poised to run the person who attacked me came up to me and apologised. He knew that I was not afraid to defend myself, thats exactly what thoes type of people pry on, fear, show them non, if you can that is.

[iamraisen]

i think that by reading these sort of posts you really get a feeling for how widespread street crime really is. it is really wrong that at some stage in their lives most people, not just in your area but the world, have been attacked without provocation. sorry to get all political, but it had never hit me that way before reading the experiences of everyone here.

[Dr NinjaBellydance]

Hello there,

Last night I was waiting for a bus in a in a rough area. As I was waiting, I was appoached by 4 "steet urchins" (boys) of about 13-14 years old. They were drunk and agressive.


I think everyone else has pretty much covered what I was going to say. I dont think you could have reacted any better.

I just wanted to ask whereabouts it happened (fellow Edinburger!)?

[Ghost Frog]

Sorry to hear about you getting hassle, semphoon. I'm well impressed with the way you kept your cool. :)

[shotokanwarrior]

(Ya grass!)



DAMN DAMN DAMN I'M A VICTIM OF ELICITATION

[cybermonk]

i think that by reading these sort of posts you really get a feeling for how widespread street crime really is. it is really wrong that at some stage in their lives most people, not just in your area but the world, have been attacked without provocation. sorry to get all political, but it had never hit me that way before reading the experiences of everyone here.

Heh and you think thats bad? I think you would be crying if you knew what goes on in other places.

[shotokanwarrior]

it is really wrong that at some stage in their lives most people, not just in your area but the world, have been attacked without provocation.

I consider it wrong not because of the danger to yourself (An ostracised loner of a 5th Kyu like me doesn't have a whole lot to be afraid of!!!) but because a lot of social structures seem to have the tendency to blame the victim. I don't understand it, but there it is, if someone is hammering the crap out of you and you take him out, for some reason you're seen as the one in the wrong not them. I think it's something to do with the so-called 'noble' philosophy of not fighting back. Why anyone thinks they have a right however to impose that on other people is beyond me entirely.

[Scarlet Mist]

Heh and you think thats bad? I think you would be crying if you knew what goes on in other places.

Exactly. Being attacked is one thing. Being shot in the head by the police because you happen to be walking along the road at 3:00am is another.

[gedhab]

Exactly. Being attacked is one thing. Being shot in the head by the police because you happen to be walking along the road at 3:00am is another.

where does that happen?

[cybermonk]

Dont know but if I had to guess I would say Hati or Jamaica.

[gedhab]

Dont know but if I had to guess I would say Hati or Jamaica.

or america....occurances such as the rodney king incident.

[Scarlet Mist]

where does that happen?

It happened to a schoolmate of mine, a few blocks from where I used to live. Some guys were robbing a store and the police decided they needed a victim. It was a rare occurence, but still, it was frightening.
Heard it happens an awful lot more in Haiti.

[gedhab]

It happened to a schoolmate of mine, a few blocks from where I used to live. Some guys were robbing a store and the police decided they needed a victim. It was a rare occurence, but still, it was frightening.
Heard it happens an awful lot more in Haiti.

Damn, that's a tough place to be living.
Makes me feel lucky to live in a country with a decent legal system. :)

[semphoon]

I think everyone else has pretty much covered what I was going to say. I dont think you could have reacted any better.

I just wanted to ask whereabouts it happened (fellow Edinburger!)?

Muirhouse (or Muirhoose if you are a local)

[Scarlet Mist]

Damn, that's a tough place to be living.


Not really, it's a great place to live in. Just that there are a few lunatics who have little respect for human life, and they have guns! :eek:

[KickChick]

or america....occurances such as the rodney king incident.

The truth of the matter about the Rodney King beating you mention is that although symbolic of police brutality, it is a very atypical incident.

True, the King beating was tragic, all shown on videotape. He'd resisted the officers, he'd charged the officers, he'd thrown four officers off his back, he'd been shot twice with a stun gun, which keeps most people down. (50,000 volts of electricity each time, and it didn't keep him down). This was a case where a great effort was made to take King into custody without hurting him, believe it or not.

[Scarlet Mist]

The truth of the matter about the Rodney King beating you mention is that although symbolic of police brutality, it is a very atypical incident.



While this is true you must realize that in many places in the US the police officers use inordinate amounts of force and make serious misjudgements. Like pulling over a bunch of students because the were black.

Of course the issue with the police is very complicated because criminals are very very brutal. If I got pulled over and asked to step out of the car, and while I was reaching quickly to unfasten my seatbelt I got smacked with a maglite, I wouldn't be mad. Because the cop has to cover his ass, and I bet guys have pulled heat on his colleagues when asked to step out of the car.

[Jang Bong]

Muirhouse (or Muirhoose if you are a local)

I know that placename. A collegue was heading to a meeting at "North Edinburgh Arts Centre", and when he told the taxi driver the address (in Muirhouse) - he was laughed at and asked if he really wanted to go to that area.

Sounds like you need to keep your eyes open around there. :woo:

[semphoon]

Its the place were "trainspotting" was based (trainspotting is a book about heroine addicts) so that gives you an idea.

Im surprised that there are no self defence classes offered in this area.

[adouglasmhor]

I like heroines, I would not say I was addicted though, maybe linda carter as wonder woman when I was in my teens.

[shotokanwarrior]

Because the cop has to cover his ass

Yeah, justice has fallen by the wayside, social structures are pretty much all about covering your ass.

[Scarlet Mist]

Yeah, justice has fallen by the wayside, social structures are pretty much all about covering your ass.


If your dad was a police man I am sure that you would rather him hit some guy on the head than have some two bit criminal but four slugs in him. The police must protect themselves because criminals want to kill them.

[Dr NinjaBellydance]

Muirhouse (or Muirhoose if you are a local)

Hmmmmm.... nice...*starts running* ;)
I live in Gorgie, which is ok, but I teach bellydancing classes in Wester Hailes and next year I move out to the new hospital at Little France with my work, neither of which are a bundle of laughs to get home from alone in the dark.:(
But as you said, sometimes you cant avoid the unpleasant areas.:rolleyes:

[masteryoursoul]

"For the bjjers out there, how would they have dealt with the situation? I mean against multiple opponents in self defense. I imagine that you would not go to ground. So you would strike instead."

I think in a situation like this if you solely train BJJ you would be in a bit of trouble. You just have to make sure you don't get tied up with anyone. Do quick buckles, and assuming you are trained in this field, and the conflict escalates to the point where it is Necessary to do so, break some limbs.

But this question is a perfect example as to why all MA practicioners looking to train for purposes of self defense should train in both a striking art and a grappling art.

My suggestion to thsi combination would be Muay Thai and BJJ. The quick strikes and close strikes of Muay Thai allow you to fight well in close situations, and seeing as most reality fioghts WILL end up on the ground, BJJ is a wonderful art to assimilate yourself with.

[NaughtyKnight]

Hi,
I find that the best tecnique to use in a street fight is a very hard hit to the chin. This causes the opponents nervoursystem to shut down and causes immediate unconsousness. This is pretty much the only technique you need to know, dont bother with grappling or fly kicking, they are just soo hard to do in a street fight. If you have ever been in one then you will know what i mean. You are so scared that you hesitate and you cant think what to use. Im not saying that grappling isnt a very good technique but i find that its too hard to remeber how to do any of them when Im in fear for my life. Your fists are much easier to use when in this situation because they are a natural movement, grapling is not.

[JKD_forever]

Even better is clean slap of hand to one's ear, which will overload brain with too much sensory information which will bring it to shut-down-like state.
Also, it is much less risky, because you can't break plam as easily as you can closed fist.
That said JKD offers solution to evrything.
P.S. Double slaping someone with both hands works like sarm in a bar, plus it looks really really cool :D

[BackFistMonkey]

Even better is clean slap of hand to one's ear, which will overload brain with too much sensory information which will bring it to shut-down-like state.
Also, it is much less risky, because you can't break plam as easily as you can closed fist.
That said JKD offers solution to evrything.
P.S. Double slaping someone with both hands works like sarm in a bar, plus it looks really really cool :D

yeah its shuts down the brain .. via hemorging .. umm you bust the ear drum if you land that solidly I dont recomend it unless your life was threatend . Same for targets like the throat and spinal cord . A ridge hand or knife hand to the side of the throat below the ear works pretty good , will not break your knuckles and doesnt have disadvantage of having to pay the attacker for his hearing or possibly paying his/her family for taking his/her life . But it does has the disadantage of paying for their jaw to be wired it you break the hinge :)

These problems are exactly why I am taking Hapikido for self defense .. its completely scaleable .. from like submission/escorting techniques to "rip their hand off and hand it to them techniques' Hapkido does a good job of teaching you when and how to apply each level of force and when to use your : striking skills , grappling skills , submission skills, kicking skills , and of course your "legging it " ( hauling butt ) skills .


Semphoon,

You did a great job . No overkill , nice calm reasoning , good application of force * shrugs * .

Be well and Train hard

BackFist Monkey

[cj256]

yeah its shuts down the brain .. via hemorging .. umm you bust the ear drum if you land that solidly I dont recomend it unless your life was threatend . Same for targets like the throat and spinal cord . A ridge hand or knife hand to the side of the throat below the ear works pretty good , will not break your knuckles and doesnt have disadvantage of having to pay the attacker for his hearing or possibly paying his/her family for taking his/her life . But it does has the disadantage of paying for their jaw to be wired it you break the hinge :)


BackFist Monkey

yeah we train a double eardrum slap in jkd but its used in conjunction with an eye gouge which then has a complete grip on the head for butting kneeing etc ....very nasty and only for big trouble in little china!!! :eek:

[Matt_Bernius]

yeah its shuts down the brain .. via hemorging .. umm you bust the ear drum if you land that solidly I dont recomend it unless your life was threatend .Actually it's a realitively low impact technique. Burst ear drums are in no way life threatening. And infact they will heal over time. However, they will definitely cause a good deal of pain and disorientation when they occur.

There's no reason to classify them in the same category as blows to the throat.

For more information on burst ear drums check out this link:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/ask_doctor/eardrum_perforated.shtml

- Matt

[JKD_forever]

Let me tell you something,
if someone attacks me after being warned three times not to do it,
legal issue is the last thing in my mind. In other words, i don't give a damn.
Shampoon,
if i was there i would beet the crapout of those kids, they would never ever ever never ever think about doing it to someone else again.

[Knight_Errant]

yeah its shuts down the brain .. via hemorging .. umm you bust the ear drum if you land that solidly I dont recomend it unless your life was threatend
Is it reeeeally THAT naughty? I've had this landed on me a number of times and I never felt anything more than mildly peeved.

[alex_000]

Hi,
I find that the best tecnique to use in a street fight is a very hard hit to the chin.

Not only in a street fight. If people didn't have chins modern boxing wouldn't exist :D

[masteryoursoul]

Hi,
This is pretty much the only technique you need to know, dont bother with grappling or fly kicking, they are just soo hard to do in a street fight. If you have ever been in one then you will know what i mean. You are so scared that you hesitate and you cant think what to use. Im not saying that grappling isnt a very good technique but i find that its too hard to remeber how to do any of them when Im in fear for my life.

I don't mean to be negative, but this is an example of either; you have failed to train properly, have been taught improperly, or have not reached a level where your art is natural.

SD arts should never be anything you have to think through to save yourself. All SD MA teachers bear it in my mind that things happen quickly and your thought process is mainly composed of "OH dear, OH dear".

It is specifically for this reason that it is important that SD teachers emphasize constant reality based training so you will have less of the 'OH dear me factor' and more consciousness. All basic SD should be muscle memory/reflex like movements that your body will initiate in times of stress. If you have these basics concepts down, these kind of reflexes that keep you out of harms way, then it is the time where you can move through a slight thinking process, which should still be mostly subconscious, and move onto the counter-offensive.

In other words; SD should be like walking. You shouldn't have to think about it, you should do it. Most time punches take about .3 seconds to hit you after being thrown. Your thinking process of 'what do I do' will take about that long, assuming your mind is moving quickly and your are calm in this situation. If you have to stop and think you're already hit.

[BackFistMonkey]

Actually it's a realitively low impact technique. Burst ear drums are in no way life threatening. And infact they will heal over time. However, they will definitely cause a good deal of pain and disorientation when they occur.

There's no reason to classify them in the same category as blows to the throat.

For more information on burst ear drums check out this link:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/ask_doctor/eardrum_perforated.shtml

- Matt
I am not perfect ... I was under the impression it was a VERY naughty thing to do unless you REALLY mean it becouse of the permament damage death factor ... * frown * now I feel cheated . I havent used this technique for that reason . Are you sure it heals if you get a good seal and rupture that puppy ? I always thought the brain hemorage was a little unlikely but I try to play safe not sorry .

* reads link *
Well now dont I feel sheepish ...

BackFistMonkey ( baaaaaa )

[Florida Warlock]

Like all the users in the posts I've read, you did the right thing.

Except I don't take ANY crap from ANYONE and I'd have taken the guy that you you down and his friends down with his sorry ass. They wouldn't have the chance to come back. I'm not a nice person when my 'personal space' is invaded :p
Here's a replay of the situation if it were me(you can tell who is who :) ):

:Angel:
:cool: :mad: :mad: :mad:
:yeleyes: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[JKD_forever]

Thats way too much icons in one post
lmao

[Karate_Man_1288]

I believe you handled it very well. It is good (since your a boxer) you didnt punch, because you could have seriously hurt someone. I think that you werent wrong in not leaving, but you are fortunate the police showed up, because if they got composed and attacked, you might not have held back, and someone could have ended up in the hospital.

[semphoon]

I'm glad that I didn't have to use what I know. I had tried to avoid confrontation but after I kicked "the touch paper had been lit" and there was no way out without somebody getting hurt (unless the police came :p)

If I was in this situation again I would definetly have struck first. What if the guy who punched me had a knife?...I don't think I would have been able to take that on the chin :D

[Solomon]

props to keeping your composure, after getting hit, that woulda sparked me.

ambulance much? : )

[Yossarian75]

A question for the Edinburgers, whats Pilton really like? Im moving back to Edinburgh some time this year and ive been offered a room in Pilton. I have heard in the past that its really dodgy.

[semphoon]

Pilton is nice. There is a large park/common so you sometimes get gangs. The house are semi-detatched so are pretty nice.

WEST Pilton is bad (that's more Muirhouse area).

[Yossarian75]

Pilton is nice. There is a large park/common so you sometimes get gangs.

Thanks, puts my mind at ease. The park seems like a good place for me to practice my forms lol.

Semphoon, I noticed you train Vale Tudo. Is that the Alba Dornadair place in Leith? I was thinking of checking it out(try some hard contact/grappling etc) how are you getting on there?

Good one with the attack though, the age of the attackers would be a worry for me, if you were charged with hitting a minor you would become a schedule one offender. That is the same class as sex offenders etc. There is a pensioner near me who grabbed a 14 year old burgler(who he caught in his house) and held on to him until the police arrived, he was charged with assault of a minor. This could mess you up if you work with children or even the general public.

[semphoon]

The club is great and teaches all ranges from strikes- clinch and then onto ground. Its like MMA but you are reminded of the dirty stuff that you can add on like eye gouges/bites etc. So its got everything MMA had plus the illegal stuff. Come along.

You can get the number 32 bus that comes just down the road from Pilton and it takes you about 30secs walk away from the gym.

Here is a review of the club

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24304&highlight=vale+tudo+edinburgh

And heres the clubs site

http://www.albadornadairstreetkombatclub.co.uk/

The club has monthly optional semiars.

This month on the 30th we have Valim Kolganov (former Russian Sambo champ...and he taught last Feb at SFUK open mat/seminar)I have only just found out his proper name..Freeform, Fluffydoc and I ended up calling him "Billy"

Next month we have Dave Turton doing a seminar.

So the club is great and seminars mean that you are getting to see top guys doing their thing.

[Yossarian75]

Thanks man, the club sounds good ill definately check it out when I come down(few months time). Cant wait to get back to Edinburgh, I really miss salt and sauce :)

[DanDan]

if the situation happens again dont be so nice, as they wearn't nice to you to start with, why should you be nice to them...Knock them all out...and if you want, get there wallets...they would of stole yours..
In a situation like that i wouldn't give a rat's about the law...You just protect yourself and take off if you hear sirens. (MY OPINION).