Master, Sifu & Student. [Archive]

NielStewart

16-Apr-2003, 03:51 PM

<<If the Master of your style fell out with your Sifu, would you stick with the style and the Master, or the Sifu who taught you?>>

Do the two have to be mutually exclusive?

When I started Kung Fu I did so because I chose my Sifu, not the style, not he master, I have never trained under the master (directly), If my sifu fell out with the master would I leave a class I enjoy to try and find another?, or would I wait until I had learnt all I could from my sifu, a person I like and respect, in an environment I enjoy and if the time ever came I could learn no more, what would stop me from THEN moving on to another sifu, or indeed the master?

Would my sifu's "falling out" automatically affect me? I would hope not, I would also hope that my seeking to further my own martial arts skills and knowledge would not cause a rift between myself and my sifu.

Do what feels right, Inevitably it will be.

morphus

16-Apr-2003, 04:05 PM

Thats one of the best questions i've heard in a while on here!

When my sabumnim/sifu left i was about half way through the coloured belt sylibus - he was the reason i joined he made the art he was teaching look that certain something, but more than that he taught it in a way that made such common sence.

I would have gone with him if he was to continue teaching; alas he didn't and i had to persuade MYSELF to stay with the art.

Spike

17-Apr-2003, 01:18 AM

I`d choose my instructor

Andy Murray

18-Apr-2003, 01:56 AM

Originally posted by NielStewart
Would my sifu's "falling out" automatically affect me? I would hope not. [/B]

Sadly Niel, this is often the case in reality.

Interesting that most people have said they would show initial loyalty to their Sifu/Instructor.

Why is that?

Would you switch to studying the German language simply because your French teacher retired, or would you seek out another German teacher?

Is it possible that learning another language, opens your field of vision to conversation in more than one tongue?

Just some thoughts....

Jim

21-Apr-2003, 12:23 AM

Sorry to post on a topic heading that has nothing to do with me but... I picked my instructor too rather than the master of the style when there was a falling out.

Cain

21-Apr-2003, 08:40 AM

I am with Jim here, most people choose the school because of the instructor, a grammar instructor is a different thing altogether, the instructor is someone who we trust to teach us, we don't care much if a new grammar turns up, but things don't feel right after we have studied under one instructor for years and become familiar with him, get used to him, trust him.

So naturally if the master of the style and the student's instructor lined up in front of the student, who do you think the student is going to choose? The master of the style who is almost a stranger to the student or his instructor who he has studied along with for years.

The decision ain't difficult [spells? :o ]

Sorry, I am not a kung fu guy but I felt I should throw in my two coppers worth ;)

|Cain|

Russ

21-Apr-2003, 10:15 AM

I guess it would depend on the reasons for the split between Sifu and Master but.....
Loosing touch with the Master may well effect your progress in learning your Kung-fu (closed door stuff!) to the max.
Could you not continue training with both?
If it came to one or other, i think it probably boils down to who you enjoy training with most, after all that is why we train isn't it?:confused:

THEGREAT1

21-Apr-2003, 11:09 AM

Surely this depends on your goals.

If you aim to be the best you can be, then surely the master can take you further then the sifu.

however if u only do the art for fun, for fitness etc, then staying loyal to the sifu is natural since u will have a personal relationship with that person that you do not have with the master.

/me personally, i stay with whoever can take me furthest

Cain

21-Apr-2003, 12:00 PM

If you aim to be the best you can be, then surely the master can take you further then the sifu.

It's not necessarry that if you want to be the best then you have to stick with the master, you can still be the best if you study under your sifu. I feel instructors are to guide us in our path...it won't depend on your goals, simply who you can trust more and feel comfortable with...

|Cain|

Scotty Dog

21-Apr-2003, 12:21 PM

I think most people choose their instructor because that's what they know, usually you only meet the big high head one a couple of times a year at a seminar & even then it's rare that you would get some one on one time.

Personaly I would prefer to train with the person I respect more, the person I know best and the person who inspired me to keep training when the couch & a 6 pack was waiting at home, for most people this would be your coach.

As for andy's point on the Family concept, I've found the best club's to train in are the one's that feel like family with the association being the extended family. Again in most cases my loyalty would be with my father than my grandfather.

it should all just come down to the reason for the falling out, but in the past I've found I'll shy away from the person standing in the middle screaming that they're right & demanding everyones loyalty.

tradwarrior

21-Apr-2003, 12:38 PM

Becoming one of the best fighters requires VERY hard training and a lot of pressure on yourself , because your worst enemy is yourself (lazyness for example)...But if you bypass those "bad feelings / thoughts you might achieve your goal". It depends on the student and then the teacher (sifu) , master etc.. But masters / teachers are humans too , and ALL of them got some weak points...The best is to complete your knowledge with one teacher / master (grab anything you can , and when you feel like you can't learn anything new , and you can't grow thru them) try other masters / teachers...Because teachers/masters are like a HUGE book..You read it and you grab / practise anything you can , this way you will be covering the weakness of each master and you will come close to "perfect"...But actually 'None Is Perfect' except God! :) Have fun

-Thanks-

Red5angel

30-Apr-2003, 04:08 PM

how about if you as the student broke with your instructors teacher? Would you stick around to train with your teacher anyway, if it were allowed?

Andy Murray

16-May-2003, 11:57 PM

OK, I guess the localised circumstances come into play. There's no general right/wrong on this issue.

I'd humbly suggest that the relationship between Sifu & Student is two way. Just as the Sifu is constantly judging whether to teach a student the next level, the student is deciding whether he/she wishes to go further.

The Sifu's relationship with the Master should show the respect that the Sifu would expect from his own students. If the Sifu shows no respect for the Master, then how can the student respect the Sifu. Yet this is still a two way relationship. The Sifu can still decide not to follow the Master anymore. While either party will try to keep things amicable, inevitably things can go wrong.

One thing I've personally found to be absolutely criminal, is Masters mistreating their junior Sifu's Students poorly as a result of these family battles.

Worse still, is the battling between segregated groups within a style, with groups of students training under different Sifu's, one, in favour with the Master, the other out!
This smacks of; 'My Dad's bigger than your Dad'

Grow up!

NielStewart

30-May-2003, 12:42 PM

One of the reasons I wanted to take up martial arts was because of the discipline and respect.

I have walked away from many classes because this has not been present.

The style I am studying at the moment was chosen solely for the sifu. I had no idea about masters and sifus and fallings out etc....

But the class feels like family, the sifu is a good teacher, strict and disciplined, never asking us to do things that he can't do himself.

I believe that a "true" martial artist can and should be a better person for their training, they should be more patient, more forgiving, more agreeable, in fact it is their responsibility. That is not to say that people don't disagree, but you can disagree in a polite way, a way that invites discussion, discourse, learning and understanding.

Andys point is right <"Worse still, is the battling between segregated groups within a style, with groups of students training under different Sifu's, one, in favour with the Master, the other out!
This smacks of; 'My Dad's bigger than your Dad'">

but also fighting/slandering between arts.

someone once told me that 95% of people talk utter rubbish 95% of the time 5% talk sense 95% of the time, that still means that the idiots will talk some sense and the sensible people will talk ssome rubbish, the gift is to listen and learn which is rubbish and which is sense.

Andy Murray

30-May-2003, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by NielStewart
That is not to say that people don't disagree, but you can disagree in a polite way, a way that invites discussion, discourse, learning and understanding.

Agreed, that's what this forum is all about.

The style I am studying at the moment was chosen solely for the sifu. I had no idea about masters and sifus and fallings out etc....

It's good that you've found somewhere that you like to train, and someone you can respect.

You must know this questions coming though Niel..........

Would you continue training with your Sifu, if he was no longer tied in with Master Yau and the BKFA?

NielStewart

30-May-2003, 02:58 PM

Thats such a loaded question I may as well shoot myself now!

Without wishing any disrespect to any person or group I joined my sifus class to learn what he had to teach. I learnt years ago that the same style under a different teacher is not normally the same at all, there are huge differences in teaching style, emphasis etc. It would, on the face of it, seem pointless to change teachers becuase of their political affiliations if it did not impact or change the class. I like my sifus approach and the balance in my class. A similar thing occured years ago in a style I studied, it changed the emphasis of the class, the class no longer was as enjoyable and I left.

In the end it comes down to enjoyment, respect and trust, I have reason to both respect and trust my sifu and both have grown over time neither of which do I give freely or without reason.

But then you already know that I have no problem with your choices. There do seem to be a few that study lau gar that have a black and white mentality that fosters this whole in fighting.

Example: some belive if its not a BKFA club its not "proper", so which is better? a 1st generation student, of a 1st generation student of master yau not affiliated to BKFA, or a 5th generation student of a 5th generation student that is affiliated to the BKFA? Whose knowledge of lau gar is (if either) superior?

Life is never black and white....

shorinstudent

31-May-2003, 11:32 PM

hmm... this is a wierd question, since there is only one master of my style this question is kind of wierd. also, since my grandmaster is 78 then his son, my sensei, will have to take over the style. i'm fine with both though. forms- grand master, fighting- sensei

Andy Murray

31-May-2003, 11:37 PM

Originally posted by shorinstudent
hmm... this is a wierd question, since there is only one master of my style this question is kind of wierd. also, since my grandmaster is 78 then his son, my sensei, will have to take over the style. i'm fine with both though. forms- grand master, fighting- sensei

Hi Shorinstudent,

You've described an actual family system with a real father to son liason, a family which you have been adopted into so to speak.

I understand why you find the question weird.

Andy Murray

01-Jun-2003, 01:03 AM

Originally posted by NielStewart
Thats such a loaded question I may as well shoot myself now!

Without wishing any disrespect to any person or group I joined my sifus class to learn what he had to teach. I learnt years ago that the same style under a different teacher is not normally the same at all, there are huge differences in teaching style, emphasis etc. It would, on the face of it, seem pointless to change teachers becuase of their political affiliations if it did not impact or change the class. I like my sifus approach and the balance in my class. A similar thing occured years ago in a style I studied, it changed the emphasis of the class, the class no longer was as enjoyable and I left.

In the end it comes down to enjoyment, respect and trust, I have reason to both respect and trust my sifu and both have grown over time neither of which do I give freely or without reason.

But then you already know that I have no problem with your choices. There do seem to be a few that study lau gar that have a black and white mentality that fosters this whole in fighting.

Example: some belive if its not a BKFA club its not "proper", so which is better? a 1st generation student, of a 1st generation student of master yau not affiliated to BKFA, or a 5th generation student of a 5th generation student that is affiliated to the BKFA? Whose knowledge of lau gar is (if either) superior?

Life is never black and white....

A forum Glitch Niel, but this reply of yours has only just become visible to me, so apologies fo the delay in response.

It is a loaded question, but you supplied the ballast I'm afraid.

I'd point out that you haven't actually provided an answer;

Would you continue training with your Sifu, if he was no longer tied in with Master Yau and the BKFA?

Yes or No will suffice :D

NielStewart

02-Jun-2003, 02:02 PM

Hmmm, well noticed!

Yes I would continue training with my sifu but as I said in an earlier post somewhere I would hope it would not make the situation exclusive, IE his falling out transfered to me.

Youve been down that route, given the same situation over again would you do the same? or would you try for a different outcome?

The question that bothers me, that you posed at the begining of this thread is what happens then? when you have learnt as much of the style as your now sifu can teach, what then?

Also a slight aside. but it appears as though it is only chinese martial arts systems that suffer the lineage/heritage issues, the korean and japanese systems dont seem to have the same infighting etc....do you think this is the case?

pgm316

02-Jun-2003, 02:35 PM

Are the lines between Master, Sifu & Student getting more blurred. With more people cross training and the rise of MMA's, the student can also be a Sifu etc etc.

Is the Master more likely to be a Master of one style only!, is that what you want?

Maybe you'd rather train with a Sifu, ie the teacher that has learnt a few styles instead of concentrating on one.

Andy Murray

02-Jun-2003, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by NielStewart

1/ Youve been down that route, given the same situation over again would you do the same? or would you try for a different outcome?

2/ The question that bothers me, that you posed at the begining of this thread is what happens then? when you have learnt as much of the style as your now sifu can teach, what then?

3/ Also a slight aside. but it appears as though it is only chinese martial arts systems that suffer the lineage/heritage issues, the korean and japanese systems dont seem to have the same infighting etc....do you think this is the case?

1/ I'd do exactly the same again!
The reason I started training and kept training was because of my Sifu and his inspiration.

2/ It depends on how far down the road you are. There was nothing my own Sifu hadn't learned, that I wanted to learn. In fact I had little left to learn from him, and was already pushing past his and the styles boundaries. There's a heck of a lot more to learn in MA than just one style anyway. I never aimed to be a fat old 6th degree 'never was' preening myself and wallowing in my own importance thanks.

3/ No I don't, TKD has more political bodies than any other art, and Karate is chock full of my styles better than your style people, with new spinoffs every week.

I was training with my Wing Chun class the other day, and someone asked if I had done any other MA before. "Loads" I replied, at which point his eyes glazed over and came out with this beauty; " It is a wise man who serves but one Master"

My reply started with a 'B' and ended with an 'ocks'.

YODA

02-Jun-2003, 09:20 PM

My reply started with a 'B' and ended with an 'ocks'.

Erm..... Ballcocks?

cyrk007

03-Jun-2003, 01:48 AM

sifu roughly translated means master

Andy Murray

03-Jun-2003, 02:14 AM

Originally posted by cyrk007
sifu roughly translated means master

Hi Chris,

I always understood 'Sifu' to translate more as Father .

NielStewart

03-Jun-2003, 08:21 AM

I understood that the term sifu, like many chinese terms depends on the context in which it is used for a definative meaning, my understanding is that it can mean master, as well as father as well as teacher, or almost a combination of all three. Although the term is most often used as teacher/father with the term sigung used for master (I prepare to be corrected)

Andy, you are quite right about the many martial arts bit, the research I have done shows that lau gar (putting aside any lineage stuff for a sec) was a stripped out shaolin style designed to be learnt in a matter of months and mastered over time, personally I cant see the harm in cross training, in fact i'm still trying to find a decent tai chi teacher locally.

pgm316

03-Jun-2003, 09:06 AM

Originally posted by Andy Murray

I was training with my Wing Chun class the other day, and someone asked if I had done any other MA before. "Loads" I replied, at which point his eyes glazed over and came out with this beauty; " It is a wise man who serves but one Master"

My reply started with a 'B' and ended with an 'ocks'.

Buttocks indeed!

I hate the idea of serving to anyone, what that all about!

NielStewart

03-Jun-2003, 10:09 AM

"My reply started with a 'B' and ended with an 'ocks'."

Big Socks?

Andy Murray

03-Jun-2003, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by NielStewart

Example: some belive if its not a BKFA club its not "proper", so which is better? a 1st generation student, of a 1st generation student of master yau not affiliated to BKFA, or a 5th generation student of a 5th generation student that is affiliated to the BKFA? Whose knowledge of lau gar is (if either) superior?

Hi Niel,

I missed the above question earlier, so I'll take you up on it now.

In the time honoured manner of answering a question with a question.

If a 1st generation 3rd degree BB leaves the BKFA, is his instruction not superior to that of a 1st degree of a 1st degree of a 1st degree who saw the Master on a couple of seminars?

NielStewart

03-Jun-2003, 02:42 PM

Pretty much my point although it would depend on why the student left.

Andy Murray

03-Jun-2003, 06:24 PM

Not really, I can pretty much guarantee that a fifth generation student of a fifth generation student taught by M Yau would be garbage, though it's possible they might have actually learned to fight.

NielStewart

03-Jun-2003, 08:47 PM

Using that logic any art will diminish over time, the further away from the master the student is?

YODA

03-Jun-2003, 09:50 PM

Originally posted by NielStewart
Using that logic any art will diminish over time, the further away from the master the student is?

Only if the "master's" art is a set dogma to be handed down without research, review, scrutiny under pressure & modification. If it is - good riddance :D

Andy Murray

03-Jun-2003, 09:56 PM

Originally posted by NielStewart
Using that logic any art will diminish over time, the further away from the master the student is?

I'd say the opposite.
The Master diminishes the further away he is from the student.

NielStewart

04-Jun-2003, 08:21 AM

"I can pretty much guarantee that a fifth generation student of a fifth generation student taught by M Yau would be garbage" posted by Andy

Surely there is a contradiction here you clearly state that 5th generation of a 5th generation student would be garbage, yet you also state the importance of the master of the style diminishes the further away you get so the style does not diminish, so are you just making lau gar the exception to this rule?

"Only if the "master's" art is a set dogma to be handed down without research, review, scrutiny under pressure & modification. If it is - good riddance" posted by yoda

my understanding (and it is limited i admit) is that master yau encorages a certain amount of individuality within lau gar as long as the set syllabus is taught as a foundation, now setting aside whatever you may think of lau gar (i'm assuming your with the "its all made up by master yau fraternity") surely that acceptance of individual strengths is the right way to push martial arts forward as it does not become "set dogma to be handed down without research"

Andy Murray

04-Jun-2003, 08:29 AM

Originally posted by NielStewart
"I can pretty much guarantee that a fifth generation student of a fifth generation student taught by M Yau would be garbage" posted by Andy

Surely there is a contradiction here you clearly state that 5th generation of a 5th generation student would be garbage, yet you also state the importance of the master of the style diminishes the further away you get so the style does not diminish, so are you just making lau gar the exception to this rule?

When talking about the generations of students etc. I was simply saying that ten generations on from the original source of material, it would most likely have dissolved into garbage. I've seen this happen, and it goes way beyond Master Yau allowing a little individuality.

When I said;

The Master diminishes the further away he is from the student.

I was saying that a master is not a master without students. If he (and I made no specific reference to anyone) is not in touch with the people learning the system, then what is he a Master of exactly?

So by saying the master is diminished by his distance from the student, this can be taken in a positive or a negative manner, as you see fit!

If the shoe fits?

NielStewart

04-Jun-2003, 10:53 AM

"When talking about the generations of students etc. I was simply saying that ten generations on from the original source of material, it would most likely have dissolved into garbage." posted by andy

Using that logic any art will diminish over time, the further away from the master the student is?

Andy Murray

04-Jun-2003, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by NielStewart

Using that logic any art will diminish over time, the further away from the master the student is?

Not necessarily, it could also evolve.

NielStewart

04-Jun-2003, 01:30 PM

I was saying that a master is not a master without students. If he (and I made no specific reference to anyone) is not in touch with the people learning the system, then what is he a Master of exactly?

I guess we are wrangling over semantics to a point I dont see a master as a master of people or of students. My definition of the term master is that it is or should be applied to people that have been seen to "master" a specific style or martial art. the term being bestowed upon them by either their master or a council of peers.

I dont believe that the terms "serve" or "master of students" should be used, masters are still students themselves.

Therefore in answer to your above statement I believe a master is a master of their own style/martial art, why would they not be a master without students?

I have no intention of teaching martial arts at any point, so does that mean I can never be a master of the art?

Andy Murray

04-Jun-2003, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by NielStewart

1/ I guess we are wrangling over semantics to a point I dont see a master as a master of people or of students. My definition of the term master is that it is or should be applied to people that have been seen to "master" a specific style or martial art. the term being bestowed upon them by either their master or a council of peers.

2/ I dont believe that the terms "serve" or "master of students" should be used, masters are still students themselves.

3/ Therefore in answer to your above statement I believe a master is a master of their own style/martial art, why would they not be a master without students?

4/ I have no intention of teaching martial arts at any point, so does that mean I can never be a master of the art?

1/ That's one definition.
Who bestowed the title in this case?

2/ Of whom or what?

3/ You don't think a Master needs students? Where does their perspective come from then?

4/ By your definition you can, by mine you can't.
Look to Master yourself before styles or others.

NielStewart

04-Jun-2003, 05:11 PM

[/1/ That's one definition.
Who bestowed the title in this case?

2/ Of whom or what?

3/ You don't think a Master needs students? Where does their perspective come from then?

4/ By your definition you can, by mine you can't.
Look to Master yourself before styles or others.

1) If we are talking about master yau then I have read it was his grandfather that bestowed the title, his grandfather being bestowed by...well you know the syllabus better than I do.

2) Life is a journey not a destination, so is martial arts, do you really believe that once you get to be a "master" you no longer have anything to learn?

3) What perspective? what do you mean by perspective?

4) Your definition (and hey this is a conversation not an argument don't think i'm fronting up or anything!) seems to portray a "master" as a power relationship, "served" by students?
If i am wrong please enlighten, also what do you see the difference as between a master and a sifu? (If any)

Andy Murray

04-Jun-2003, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by NielStewart
1) If we are talking about master yau then I have read it was his grandfather that bestowed the title, his grandfather being bestowed by...well you know the syllabus better than I do.

2) Life is a journey not a destination, so is martial arts, do you really believe that once you get to be a "master" you no longer have anything to learn?

3) What perspective? what do you mean by perspective?

4) Your definition (and hey this is a conversation not an argument don't think i'm fronting up or anything!) seems to portray a "master" as a power relationship, "served" by students?
If i am wrong please enlighten.

5/ What do you see the difference as between a master and a sifu? (If any)

1/ You said the title was bestowed by a "Master or a Council of peers"

2/ You're putting words in my mouth Niel.

3/ Perspective? How they are looked upon by others. Measured by the standards of their students.

4/ In which case, you've misread me, or possibly I've written poorly. I don't believe there is such a thing as a Master, and anyone that wishes to be referred to as such is sad.

5/ Master, as Sifu, and as I've said many times on this forum is an honorific, something other people might choose to refer to you by, but not something you refer to yourself as.

If you were to ask me what I think a Sifu and a Master should be, then I can indeed enlighten you.

NielStewart

04-Jun-2003, 07:59 PM

Maybe we started at the end and are working backwards! It would be interesting to know what you think a master/sifu/student should be.

1/ You said the title was bestowed by a "Master or a Council of peers"
According to the literature (BKFA that is) "master" yaus grandfather was a "master" awarded to him by his "master" etc. Maybe master is a poor translation the english conotations ie master therefore slave (yin and Yang) just does not work. Teacher therefore student i can live with, master therefore student? which was my point about master of technique not master of people.

god this is easier over a beer than over a keyboard!

Andy Murray

04-Jun-2003, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by NielStewart
Maybe we started at the end and are working backwards! It would be interesting to know what you think a master/sifu/student should be?

I was attempting to open a thread discussing the 'family' structure of the CMA systems, in particular the main five 'Ga' systems. Mr Yau only drifted into it, because I was asking Niel a specific question.

Let me throw the above question of Niels to everybody;

"It would be interesting to know what you think a master/sifu/student should be?"

NielStewart

04-Jun-2003, 08:27 PM

I was attempting to open a thread discussing the 'family' structure of the CMA systems

Point taken, sorry about that - did seem to hijack the thread somewhat!

Andy Murray

04-Jun-2003, 09:03 PM

Master

In the MA sense, a Master would be someone who had all knowledge there was to be gotten about a specific style. He would take responsibility for whether that art was propogated or not, and if so, by whom, to whom and to what standard.

I don't personally approve of people using the title of Master, whether it is bestowed upon them by a commitee, or sweetly blown upon them from Bhudda's Ass. Having others refer to you as a Master is a different matter, though motives for doing so can be called into question. Blind Idolatry is not for me.

Sifu

In the MA sense, a Sifu is a teacher, the person who toils day by day to pass on the style to the best of his ability. He seeks to learn and master all aspects of the system. He strives to overcome the learning difficulties of the students and gives them just enough inspiration to continue. In the 'Ga' system, the Sifu is also the father, with the students being sons and daughters, to be taught, disciplined and above all cherished.

I don't personally approve of people using the title of Sifu by their own choice. It is/should be an honorific, something you would never use as an individual, but others might call you by. I look at it like the first time a child looks in it's father's eyes and say's "Daddy". The relationship is special to the person on each side of the title, but to nobody else. Trust, once again, not Blind Idolatry, just as no father is perfect.

Student

Everyone is, or should be Masters and Sifus alike.

YODA

04-Jun-2003, 09:46 PM

Good take Andy.

Titles shoudl never be used by the person - that shows ego and conceit.

Mastery? Heck I don't WANT mastery - Mastery is an end product! What then?

I like people to call em whatever THEY feel confortable with. To some that means "Sifu" (The one who does it most is Chinese so that kinda makes sense), to others, "Dave", to others - "That plonker in the spandex shorts" :p

Andy Murray

04-Jun-2003, 10:06 PM

Thanks Guru :D

NielStewart

05-Jun-2003, 08:15 AM

Although we have the grading system in our class we are taught that it is the length of time a student has been studying that counts. IE we have one student, who has been studying longer but is a lower grade than another however they are the senior student (IE older brother) not the senior grade.

Is this the same in other styles?

shorinstudent

06-Jun-2003, 03:50 AM

we don't use a grading system at my new school

in fact, testing and all of that jazz is very informal compared to my last school.
at my TKD center we had huge testings, like a party, and it would last for at least 6 hours. then, the following monday, we'd get together and celebrate. the idea was that the rank is passed from sah bum nimh (father) to son.

at my new school,it's very relax, for my last test we were justr doing a review, but he decided to turn it into a test halfway through. is anybody elses like the second one? no grading system?
and do your test requirements involve kniowledge of your school forms, and practices? just wondering.

Greg-VT

06-Jun-2003, 03:56 AM

Ours is very casual.

No gradings or tests. Just White and Black teashirts. The more advanced have black, beginners white. No grading or testing is done, just when the teacher think your readiy, he'll give you a black shirt. simple as that. We focus very little on ranks etc. Just learning, teaching, and practice.

craigthain

15-Jun-2003, 12:56 PM

this is unfortunatly going to happen more and more as more and more groups splinter from there origonal group it has happened ever since martial arts began. say a master starts teaching a few students, one desides to start a class and bcomes very popular so he expands, the demand becomes so strong he has to give up his work to teach his ma. now he is dependant on ma for a living
now the money is in charge ! his senior students get fed up paying for classes and ending up teaching the classes whilst his instuctor rakes in the money! they leave set up a seperate group
so on and so on! are they wrong! should they stay for the benifit of the instuctor or branch out on there own! with the danger of loosing touch with the origional masters teachings but with the possibility of finding other sources or master/s

at the end of the day this is all politics! whilst it can cause problems, and silly, you cant train with me cause your a.b.c and im b.c.d.
If only all this didnt matter and we were all open!! friendly
and helpful to each other martial arts would be better thought of and more popular!

Darkflight

17-Jun-2003, 03:34 PM

Just to answer the original question, I would stay with my Sifu as i've got a long way to go in the style, and the master (being Italian) is pretty much removed from me.

I've trained under both Sifu and Master and they have such a good rapport it's hard to seee anything negative happening though :)

Andy Murray

28-Jul-2003, 12:45 AM

Originally posted by craigthain
this is unfortunatly going to happen more and more as more and more groups splinter from there origonal group it has happened ever since martial arts began. say a master starts teaching a few students, one desides to start a class and bcomes very popular so he expands, the demand becomes so strong he has to give up his work to teach his ma. now he is dependant on ma for a living
now the money is in charge ! his senior students get fed up paying for classes and ending up teaching the classes whilst his instuctor rakes in the money! they leave set up a seperate group
so on and so on! are they wrong! should they stay for the benifit of the instuctor or branch out on there own! with the danger of loosing touch with the origional masters teachings but with the possibility of finding other sources or master/s

at the end of the day this is all politics! whilst it can cause problems, and silly, you cant train with me cause your a.b.c and im b.c.d.
If only all this didnt matter and we were all open!! friendly
and helpful to each other martial arts would be better thought of and more popular!

If only........

So money is the real issue?

Aravi

23-Dec-2003, 12:34 AM

Money and power always corrupt, sad but true.

Me, I'd probably stay with my instructor (don't even know who his master is?) in most cases.

Shaolin Dragon

23-Dec-2003, 12:44 AM

It surely depends on why your sifu and master have fallen out?

Money isn't always the issue - I have never trained with professional teachers, but you still get the politics.

I had the good fortune to study with both my sifu and sigung over the same period of time. This gives one a bit more insight into the sorts of reasons that the two might fall out.

Ninestep

23-Dec-2003, 08:05 AM

AndyMurray : "I don't believe there is such a thing as a Master, and anyone that wishes to be referred to as such is sad."

I agree, unless referring to those that have passed on, where I think it is appropriate (that is to say appropriate in real traditional styles).

NielStewart : " (i'm assuming your with the "its all made up by master yau fraternity") "

A fraternity!? If that's what people are calling the truth these days then I'm a Dutchman.

I know Chinese teachers of great skill and time in training in very traditional styles who don't even refer to themselves as Sifu, let alone 'Master'.

Andy Murray

23-Dec-2003, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Shaolin Dragon
It surely depends on why your sifu and master have fallen out?

I had the good fortune to study with both my sifu and sigung over the same period of time. This gives one a bit more insight into the sorts of reasons that the two might fall out.

Shouldn't it be natural, nay the core purpose of a Master to see his students transcend his teachings and move on?

edz

23-Dec-2003, 12:09 PM

As I'm new here, I'm trying to read most of the threads already posted. As you know, it'll take aaaaaages, so I'v skipped a few pages, sorry if I end up repeating what someone said! :)

Anyway, I'd probably stay with my Sifu. I've been told by him that his Master had deliberatly taught Sifu's around UK slightly different styles. Therefore, if I went on to another Sifu, his style would be different, eventhough it's the same art.

In additional, I'm a loyal person and would stay with my Sifu just because he's my Sifu!

Hope this makes sense!

Andy Murray

23-Dec-2003, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by edz

In additional, I'm a loyal person and would stay with my Sifu just because he's my Sifu!

Hope this makes sense!

It does! ;)

I'd probably stay with my Sifu. I've been told by him that his Master had deliberatly taught Sifu's around UK slightly different styles. Therefore, if I went on to another Sifu, his style would be different, eventhough it's the same art.

This bit's Porky Pies though!

Shaolin Dragon

23-Dec-2003, 12:33 PM

Masters are just sifus with more experience. Why should they be any different from your sifu?

Andy Murray

23-Dec-2003, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by Shaolin Dragon
Masters are just sifus with more experience. Why should they be any different from your sifu?

Different in what respect?

stumpy

23-Dec-2003, 01:03 PM

I'm still new to the MA game, and I'm no spring chicken.
At my present level I reckon it would be 15 or more years before I was getting close to having learnt everything my sifu knows about Lau Gar.
By then I'd definitely be an old codger.
The classes I attend are fun, social, good exercise, local, etc, as well as being a style that I currently enjoy.

I'd stick with my sifu because it would suit me as I am currently.
There may come a time when it didn't suit me, so I would consider another sifu, or another style, or retirement.

Andy Murray

23-Dec-2003, 01:06 PM

Sound's like you're in a happy place Stumpy.
Long may it continue!

Matt_Bernius

26-Dec-2003, 02:54 PM

To echo what others have said, my decision tree would go something along these lines:

1. What is the nature of the falling out?

2. What are my Master and Sifu's plans moving forward?

3. To whom do I owe the greatest debt?

Basically, I would need to sort through these things. All things being equal I would probably continue with my Sifu. I began my current phase of my martial arts training with him and I do not think it's time to complete that phase just yet.

- Matt

quartermaster

27-Dec-2003, 04:03 PM

in a few years i will be able to join the grandmaster himself from time to time, but he is only a fellow student of the art. there is no rank, only the level at which you can do stuff, so to speak.
that said, my sifu, or Grant as i know him, is where my loyalties lie at this time. that should not suggest i would refuse the Masters/Grandmasters instruction, but i will only leave Grant if i have a good reason that relates to me (eg. he wants me dead, that would be a good reason to keep away)

KungFuJoe

29-Dec-2003, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by NielStewart
<<If the Master of your style fell out with your Sifu, would you stick with the style and the Master, or the Sifu who taught you?>>

Do the two have to be mutually exclusive?

When I started Kung Fu I did so because I chose my Sifu, not the style, not he master, I have never trained under the master (directly), If my sifu fell out with the master would I leave a class I enjoy to try and find another?, or would I wait until I had learnt all I could from my sifu, a person I like and respect, in an environment I enjoy and if the time ever came I could learn no more, what would stop me from THEN moving on to another sifu, or indeed the master?

Would my sifu's "falling out" automatically affect me? I would hope not, I would also hope that my seeking to further my own martial arts skills and knowledge would not cause a rift between myself and my sifu.

Do what feels right, Inevitably it will be.

I woulld very much have to agree with NielStewart. I initially chose my Kwoon because of it's Sifu, Lorens San Pedro. Our master, Grandmaster Sin The, is a wonderful man and I am honored to learn his art but since he is not based in texas and comes but once a year to visit he is but a another picture on the wall to me.

I chose this kwoon because Sifu Lorens instilled a drive to suceed and better oneself in all his students. When this guy is around people who never dreamed they could run a mile are all the sudden running 5 miles with him. When anyone would miss class he was constatantly in contact with that student urging them to return to class. That type of drive to want others to succeed as much as yourself is amazing to me.

My Sifu decided that he needed to take a break because Kung-Fu had become Life, Wife and Mother to him which is not a good thing. He lost touch with the outside world since becoming a teacher of Kung Fu. He told me once friends that he used to hang with constanstly while in college (which was only 3-4 yrs ago) who live like 2 blocks from him he hasnt seen in a year. So he decided to take a sabatical to get reaquanted with his social life (which I must agree the man needs a women! Seriously). While on this sabatical he is being sent to China by a local Bhudist temple of which he is forever volunteering at to learn more about Bhudism.

When he left, you could tell all the energy was gone from our Kwoon, we have new instructors we hardly even know. Thoughts of leaving had crossed my mind but I decided not only would I dishonor myself by leaving I would also dishonor my Sifu and all the work he put into me. Sifu Lorens left going on almsot 4 months now and I am still training and soon will be testing for my green belt. When he returns I hope to be atleast 60lbs lighter and one serious fighter as I have discoverd the joy of controlled combat.

Thanks for taking time out to read this!

creamcheese

22-Jul-2004, 12:57 AM

OK Kung Fu people, some input here if you would.

The answer will depend largely on the size of your Kwoon and/or organisation;

If the Master of your style fell out with your Sifu, would you stick with the style and the Master, or the Sifu who taught you?

Andy
In our Federation this situation would be a very big IF. IF it ever did happen (g-d forbid), I would stay with my Sifu, as he was the first one who taught me to walk in the steps of Kung Fu. However, I also learned with the Grandmaster who is my Si Gung so I would also keep contact with him and maybe try to make a reconciliation between them. However, as I know them both, for a situation like that to arise between them, would practically be NIL. (I am happy to say)

Shou Tu

22-Jul-2004, 10:01 AM

OK Kung Fu people, some input here if you would.

The answer will depend largely on the size of your Kwoon and/or organisation;

If the Master of your style fell out with your Sifu, would you stick with the style and the Master, or the Sifu who taught you?

Andy

the answer for me is to find the master or a Shifu that is being taught by the Master, Why this is because the Shifu's (not being taught by the master) teachings will deminish with time with no correction from the master, No matter the loyalty, Im learning an art, i want to learn it to its completion or as much as will be taught to me. I dont want to learn 1/2 then learn what interpretation the Shifu had of the art. Its like taking silver and adding lead to tell someone its silver. Its not its diluted and not worth what pure silver is worth.

Salute,

Law Hon Gung

22-Jul-2004, 07:42 PM

well said!

Shou Tu

23-Jul-2004, 04:38 AM

thank you

cybermonk

23-Jul-2004, 04:47 AM

Shou Tu

23-Jul-2004, 08:42 PM

I would say it depends on why the fell out, if its because of something the master is doing that the sifu doesnt agree with ill stick with the sifu(non system/style realted), if its because the sifu is making modifications to the style I would think about it a few times before continuing with him.

No matter what the reason is for the fall out the Shifu/Sifu that leaves the instruction of the Master before he himself is a master will never have all the art. Therefore overtime what he teaches will demish and only become what he feels the art is. It will either become diluted and worthless, or he will have to learn other arts to intergrate into what he knows to make it worth while.

you leave the art with a Sifu that you have loyalty to, He waters it down and the art really sucks, but because of you have loyalty you dont want to leave or let your sifu know he has hurt the art. so then more students come in and more people hear you say your Sifu is awesome and he is really knowledged in this art. Before you know it your breaking boards for advancement and learning how to point fight for the trophy window.

when all the while should have just left him to fall to the way side and continue the lessons with someone that is learning the art from the master.

Salute,

cybermonk

24-Jul-2004, 02:43 AM

If the reason they fell out is non style related I dont see how the art would die down or become dilluted, if the sifu knows the art well, like he should(im not talking about someone who is teaching after only having 10 years of experience here) then the art should remain solid.

Shou Tu

24-Jul-2004, 06:18 AM

Shen Yin

24-Jul-2004, 06:49 AM

I'm confused here. Do you mean "Master" as in "Si Gung" or as in "Si Jo"? Because this is what it depends on as the definition of the word "Master".

Shou Tu

24-Jul-2004, 08:29 AM

Master of an Art - A person that can call the art he teaches his art, based on it being passed to him by another Master giving him the right to change it.

Si Jo is Creator, Commonly used in western schools based on someone taking an art they have been taught and creating their own based on their interpretations of the art they learned. Its used alot here in the states.

The ones that are actual Masters of an Art usually dont adapt the title of Si Jo they didnt create the art they were taught the whole art and teach it as it was taught to them. Someone else created it, they just keep teaching it.

Salute,

chapskins

24-Jul-2004, 01:50 PM

That i agree with, but nowadays you have someone that is only a 1st degree black or 2nd degree black and leaving to run their own School, then realizing they are missing stuff and have to get another style to compliment it.

Those are the ones that scare me.

Very well put, I could'nt agree more, I've had a weird experience with a so called Sifu, all of a sudden decided to stop the classes that he was taking, this is a big thing for anyone to say, and i will choose my words carefully, with no disrespect to my former teacher, a good friend and i found that we both had a far deeper understanding than that of our Sifu of the art that we were being taught, this is in no sense an egotistical statement, other people in the class said the same thing, maybe thats why he stopped the class, the words Sifu means farther teacher, what sort of father would abandon his children? we were never told the reasons why the classes stopped.

Now the point i'm trying to make is, say if a student under a sifu has a deeper understanding of a chosen art, who would we want to train under? just because the master has the title he has does'nt mean that the student would'nt be the better one to train under, their are loads of masters, but hey, what if the some of the students are better? hey, hope no one gets the idea that i'm coming over as an instructor, not even remotely interested in becoming one.

I find it myself such a difficult thing finding a teacher, to put it better way your teacher, I met the teacher that i was talking of in the classical sense, after looking for ages for a Sifu i gave up, a few weekes after i was walking through the woods near me and heypresto, an old Taoist preist all done up in traditional Taoist clothes was walking just a few yards ahead of me, sounds a bit cheesey i know, like some old Martial arts movie, ha, i guess he knew i was coming, but yep, thats how i met him, lots and lots of teachers out their, the right one though? it's a bloody mine-feild

Shou Tu

25-Jul-2004, 08:07 AM

Now the point i'm trying to make is, say if a student under a sifu has a deeper understanding of a chosen art, who would we want to train under? just because the master has the title he has does'nt mean that the student would'nt be the better one to train under, their are loads of masters, but hey, what if the some of the students are better? hey, hope no one gets the idea that i'm coming over as an instructor, not even remotely interested in becoming one.

I find it myself such a difficult thing finding a teacher, to put it better way your teacher, I met the teacher that i was talking of in the classical sense, after looking for ages for a Sifu i gave up, a few weekes after i was walking through the woods near me and heypresto, an old Taoist preist all done up in traditional Taoist clothes was walking just a few yards ahead of me, sounds a bit cheesey i know, like some old Martial arts movie, ha, i guess he knew i was coming, but yep, thats how i met him, lots and lots of teachers out their, the right one though? it's a bloody mine-feild

This part of the statement really went away from what the first part was going to. Honestly if the student thinks he knows more than what the Shifu is teaching him them he needs to humble himself and challenge the Shifu.
If in fact the student beats the Shifu in Challenge then the student needs to find another Shifu.

to walk away without challenging the Shifu would be a unfullfilled challenge. if you think you can beat your shifu then challenge him and see. If your knowledge of the art he teaches is more than his, then you should beat him in a challenge, should that occur I agree find another Shifu.

Now what was originally asked, what if the Master and a Shifu have a falling out, would you continue to find instruction from the Shifu that left the masters instruction. I myself would not and i would find a Shifu that is still learning from the master and continue my instruction from him or from the Master himself.

Salute,

chapskins

25-Jul-2004, 09:12 AM

This part of the statement really went away from what the first part was going to. Honestly if the student thinks he knows more than what the Shifu is teaching him them he needs to humble himself and challenge the Shifu.
If in fact the student beats the Shifu in Challenge then the student needs to find another Shifu.

Yep, thats what happened,I did challenge him, got some wishy-washy answers so i left him.

To get back to the question that was asked, it's a really hard thing to answer, it all depends on who has the deeper understanding of the art, say two guy's or two women start say any art, one is always slightly more advanced than the other, the one who is more advanced eventually becomes a master, the one that was surpassed after sometime becomes better than the master, who would we want to train under, the one that is a master or one that is spoken of as a Sifu?

In that sense it's not so cut n dry, as way off as it may seem, do you see my angle? for me it all comes down to a deeper understanding, that would be the person i would want teaching me. i could see why people would follow their Sifu if they only ever had contact with him as you build a personal relationship with them, i'm very lucky as in the association that i'm with we are able to train under many Sifu's every day of the week, so were lucky in the sense that we have the availability of a very wide knowlage base, not only that of the Master but that of the Sifu's under him........ :)

cybermonk

25-Jul-2004, 07:54 PM

My current sifu has been doing kung fu for over 25 years, if he fell out with his master because of personal differences I wouldnt think the art would be dilluted at all. Thank god this hasnt happened though, it would be like a broken family.

creamcheese

26-Jul-2004, 12:52 AM

I always understood that Si Jo was the Founder and Si Gung is someones Sifu's Sifu.

creamcheese

26-Jul-2004, 12:54 AM

What do you mean by"changing an art"???????

Shou Tu

26-Jul-2004, 05:36 AM

What do you mean by"changing an art"???????

Changing an art - if a someone is given the title master of an art and can call it theirs, Then they can add and subtract what ever they feel is ineffective or effective based on their knowledge.

Kwajman

26-Jul-2004, 04:02 PM

Dang, someone must have used a BIG shovel to dig this one up. Well anyhow, I think its a good question and didn't see it like a YEAR ago when I joined. My current instructor I would stay with, my original one I wouldn't. He lacked some guidance anyway.

Also, the size of my kwoon is nobodies business but mine........ :D

Battle Sword

25-Oct-2004, 07:05 PM

This is a complex question which has a different
answer for each person. My answer has been found
in a similar yet more complex style with shifu's who
are prepared to deal with modifying moves for my
disability, which can be critical in a real life situation
for me. When I knew for certain that I was welcome
to study with the new Shifu's in the new style, it gave
me alot of hope for my future in kung fu.

Law Hon Gung

25-Oct-2004, 08:55 PM

Battle sword ! what are you waiting for ? make the drive! and start training,the instructors are waiting for you and your son.

Shou Tu

26-Oct-2004, 05:54 AM

I cant believe what im seeing.

THREE SKY

26-Oct-2004, 03:07 PM

I cant believe what im seeing.

DELETED.

I'M NOT GOING TO WASTE MY TIME WITH THIS. IT'S PERCEPTION VS. REALITY AND REALITY IS LIKE A FISH BOWL. THE PERCEPTION IS HOW YOU SEE THE CONTENTS OF THE FISH BOWL THE REALITY IS THAT THE CONTENTS ARE ALWAYS THE SAME, JUST PERCEIVED DIFFERENTLY BASED ON THE PERCEPTIONS OF THE VIEWER. GLUG! GLUG!

Indestructible

26-Oct-2004, 04:45 PM

Indestructible

26-Oct-2004, 04:56 PM

DELETED.

I'M NOT GOING TO WASTE MY TIME WITH THIS. IT'S PERCEPTION VS. REALITY AND REALITY IS LIKE A FISH BOWL. THE PERCEPTION IS HOW YOU SEE THE CONTENTS OF THE FISH BOWL THE REALITY IS THAT THE CONTENTS ARE ALWAYS THE SAME, JUST PERCEIVED DIFFERENTLY BASED ON THE PERCEPTIONS OF THE VIEWER. GLUG! GLUG!

Sometimes you have to be in the bowl to know whats going on. If you haven't met Battle Sword and spoken with her, then you cannot know her situation.

THREE SKY

26-Oct-2004, 05:33 PM

I am aware of the challenge that BS has to deal with and admire the tenacity and drive to overcome said challenge. To that point I agree with you and can only humble myself out of mutual respect.

You know where I am coming from as it relates to not only the fish bowl, but the "fisherman" as well. No need to quible over it, after all it's only my perception. From my humbleness also comes my modesty.

Battle Sword

26-Oct-2004, 06:53 PM

My training has been helped by many of the Shou
Shu Shifu's. It must be said here that living
with a disability is just that, one learns to live with it.
As many disabled people desire to defend themselves,
this can be difficult at times, to say the least. I have
overcome many things in my life, however this is by
far, the most challanging for me. I am now facing
many more months of physical therapy. Discouragement
is sure to come. Please do not argue.

snakep

26-Oct-2004, 09:08 PM

I would need to know why they left. Then and only then,I would decide to stay or leave.

I couldn't study under someone who recruited other styles or system's students. Someone who made false claims (where they learned,who they taught, etc.). Someone who associated with another styles/systems's renegades, trying to make himself appear part of that orginazation. I've run across too many of these people over the years and I can't respect these types.

I would need someone who was honorable. Someone who's backround was confirmed by more than a photo with someone to prove his legitimacy.But we are talking hypothetcal here, so I have nothing to worry about .

Indestructible

26-Oct-2004, 09:20 PM

Do any of you even know the Kenpo/Shou Shu history? The irony is overwhelming me. Go, find the truth.

snakep

26-Oct-2004, 09:54 PM

I'm sorry, did I walk into the middle of something here?

I was just answering the original question. Didn't know there was an argument over something. My fault. Sorry to bother you.

Shou Tu

26-Oct-2004, 09:59 PM

Do any of you even know the Kenpo/Shou Shu history? The irony is overwhelming me. Go, find the truth.

Go high atop that mountain to see the wise man for all your answers. Application Application and Application

Matt_Bernius

27-Oct-2004, 02:22 AM

Hey Shou Shuer's & everyone else,

Just wanted to remind everyone to play nice. This is an old thread that's just been resurrected. Please be considerate and keep the responses moderated or we'll have to lock this down.

Battle Sword, I'm sorry to hear about your problems. Good luck with your training and overcomming the frustrations that are ahead!

- Matt

DragonSpawn

13-Mar-2006, 04:33 AM

My "sifu" as you guys call it is, as far as currently known, the highest master of the style in existence.

succubus

13-Mar-2006, 06:12 AM

it depends on what the disagreement was about, and who i agreed with.

at the moment i'd probably stick with the school, and the master, cuz they've been around a *lot* longer than my si-fu.

Longfusan

02-Apr-2008, 03:31 AM

Loyalty is a noble trait. I think each situation would have different dynamics. It is important to learn to deal with politics, but not be overwhelmed,consumed,or ruled by them.

laugarfist

02-Apr-2008, 09:48 AM

Does this count as thread necromancy?

Bassmonkey

02-Apr-2008, 11:19 AM

Definately! Its been over 12 months after all! If it gets back up after that amount of time....its gotta be zombifiaction!

Black Armor

02-Apr-2008, 05:42 PM

This happened at the school I originally learned from. Fortunately I was already being trained by masters and not my original teacher. If I had to make the choice, I would choose the art and follow my master, not my shunshifu. ShunShifu's will come and go, the art is there forever. My prev shunshifu was a 3rd degree. My Master is an 8th degree. do the math...
I was loyal when I signed up to the art, not the teacher. You can only further your knowledge to the extent of one teachers ability. Open that door up and take lessons from as many masters as you can in that art and see the difference.

Respectfully,
Shun Shifu Vargas
Elk Grove, CA

Fire-quan

02-Apr-2008, 09:02 PM

Let's play, master and servant...

Banditshaw

02-Apr-2008, 09:32 PM

Let's play, master and servant...

Dang it!
Now I got that song stuck in my head!

axelb

03-Apr-2008, 09:13 AM

this theme seems to be a common thing in kungfu schools.

lots of falling outs between master and sifus.

makes you realise why there are so many kungfu schools around and barely a common denominator. Schools split from school split from school. probably one of the main reasons it's so hard to find a legit kungfu school.

I'd rather train in a MA class that has consistency and none of the petty infighting.

Mr. O

03-Apr-2008, 12:36 PM

this question is a bit of a no brainer really. You're gonna stay with the person who taught you regardless of where they stand in the rankings / association.

If you are directly taught by the master or are taught a lot by him then I think its fair to say you could choose him. But I think that it would be stupid to pick master over sifu if you have niot really been taught by him!

Personally I would stay with my instructor! However, we dont have any petty little arguments so I count us as lucky!

Ciar2001

03-Apr-2008, 01:23 PM

My sifu I chose SPM as I have had trained previously in Steelwire which is a mix of this and HKuen I knew my sifu's Master as originally visited him when i was 15 years old :) but my sifu is the one who trains me so he would always be the person I would back.

Battle Sword

07-Jun-2008, 10:12 PM

My kids miss their training in the art.

btq66

08-Jun-2008, 03:59 AM

This might sound daft, but should you not be trying to get the best instruction possible to allow you to develop and possibly help evolve what you/the style is doing?
Seems like a lot of people are happy to stick to age old traditions of master/servant (slave)as someone put it.
With the internet now showing whats freely available and people being able to travel more freely for cheaper, why would you stick with someone out of loyalty (stupidity?) when there are probably more options? If it's the better choice then cool.
If you are told that a ceratin vanilla ice cream is the best and once you've eaten it over and over for a loooong time it will eventually be the best thing, how are you going find out about how good (or bad)the other makes of vanilla are, or how chocolate ice cream is? Or the other flavours??
Basically, anyone worth their salt, should not be fearful of letting students try something or someone else. If there's a split and you go with the master and find out you've made a mistake. Then you should always be able to go back or vice versa if the teacher is secure in themself. I think.

if you love something, set it free. If it comes back to you, then it's yours. if it doesn't, then it never was!

GSHAMBROOKE

08-Jun-2008, 10:13 AM

Do not Master and Sifu mean the same thing.

GSHAMBROOKE

08-Jun-2008, 10:16 AM