what should I do?

[gt3]

i'm about half way through learning the yang cheng fu form from erle montaigue's dvd and i try to do his "3circle standing qigong" exercise everyday. I feel like i'm learning a lot and doing the form failry correctly, as i repeadedly rewind/pause the dvd and use mirrors along with reading the classics and any info i can.

Anwyay, i found out that there is indeed someone teaching taichi only 2 miles from my new house, every saturday morning. A level one assistant instructor from this website http://www.dotaichi.com/ that claims to teach the "Dual Style" as developed by Tchoung Ta-tchen. I've never heard of that but upon readin about it on the website its some version of the Yang style supposedly.

So my question is should i continue learning from Erle's videos to learn the rest of the yang cheng fu long form (and then possibly go on to learn more from his system or some other instructor) or should i stop and start taking lessons from a "real life" instructor. The reason i ask is because if i start taking real life instruction from a different teacher/style i'll have to start over from the beginning as their form will certainly have the moves done differently and trying to do both their way and erles way at the same time would be too confusing.

I like what im doing with erle's videos and my own research/training but i'm not getting any feedback on my form and i have no partner for pushhands or anything

[daftyman]

Its always better to have a teacher that can give feedback, the problem is finding the right teacher.

Why not go along and give it a go? Go with an open mind, as the guy will probably have different ideas from what you are getting from Erle's stuff. You may not like it. If that's the case, then all you've lost is a couple of weeks/months. No biggy.

But if you do like it.....then you'll get the instant feedback from the teacher, and get to push hands and all the other stuff that they seem to teach.

Regardless of whether or not you like it, you will definitely learn something.

Even if it is only to avoid the place in the future.

Let us know how you get on.

[Syd]

GT,

Here's a few suggestions. E-mail Erle and find out if there any WTBA instructors near your area. If there aren't any you can post your name on the looking for training partners section of his web site as there may be somebody very near you learning in the same way within Erle's system. It's no bad thing to push hands with people from other schools of Taijiquan either so thats always another option and you could stay with Erle's system and persist with it.

Your other option is to drop what you are doing and go train with these other people but remember, you may not be any better off depending on how good the teacher is and the system. You might need to go take a look at this other class and see how it fits, if you like it go for it. The fact that your starting out means you want to keep things simple. I would suggest sticking with learning the YCF and then look around if you want something from a personal instructor.

You can also e-mail Erle for feedback.

[gt3]

thanks guys. good ideas..

if i do learn the whole YCF form from erle and then i go on to find some yang style instructor do you think they'd let me continue doing the form as i do it, or expect me to start over and learn their version of the YCF form (equivalent to being a black belt in something and then joining another school and becoming a white belt in that style)... It would seem kinda crazy to get used to one way of doing the YCF form only to have to completely relearn the form simply because a new instructor teaches it differently

[Syd]

I can safely say that all schools would have you start again and learn their specific system, thats just standard really.

[daftyman]

I'll add this though. Some instructors may just want to see your stuff first. It may be close enough, that you will be able to join in with regular classes and just work on remoulding your form to his teaching. Depends on how different his form is from yours.

You may also be able to join in with the two person practices sooner as well. Regardless, it is always worth while to attend the beginners classes, as it gives you the opportunity to really examine each movement afresh. Some of my bigger breakthroughs in understanding have happened in the middle of a beginners class.

Most will want, as Syd said, for you to start at the beginning again.

[cloudz]

Hi gt3

For what it's worth mate, I would definately check out this school/instructor if I were you.

From looking over the site it seems to have an excellent lineage and quite a wide and interesting syllabus. you will also I imagine get the opportunity to practice the martial applications of the form with partners and this will be invaluable to you if you are doing tai chi for combat. Also having some experience with the new yang form you should make good progress with the old form. The older form is also more martially orientated. Doing it to the 'other side' in my opinion is also very important, and combining it in one form makes pretty good sense to me.

I would not worry too much about 'loosing' what you already have learnt as the principles are what's really important. Essentially you will be performing the same movements just in a slightly different way in places with some additions. And you can always continue or go back to the new yang form at your leisure, once you get a handle on the new stuff. My teacher often recomends us to practice the new form in the morning for health and the old form in the evening for martial practice. You may also find through you new instuctors/fellow students a way of learning the cheng-fu form with a real life teacher rather than from a video, which would be a better alternative as this would (of) become your foundation. It is not always easy to be objective when looking and correcting yourself. And however good/detailed a video is it cant replace real life tuition from an experienced teacher especially when starting out in internal arts. Once you have a solid foundation I think videos offer a great way to learn/observe different forms.

Overall I think there is a lot more for you to gain by training there than continuing as you are. And like VR said there's no harm in checking it out to see if it really is a good school/good instructor and is right for you, and does what it says on the tin.

Sorry to go on a bit, but I think you are pretty lucky to have found this school near you, and if I wasn't on the other side of the world I'd probably be checking it out with you! :)

Whatever you decide enjoy your practice and good luck. If you do go along don't forget to let us know how you get on.

p.s I have just read the bio of the south california instructor Harvey Kurland - very impressive. If you can learn from him or one of his students/licenced instructors you'll be doing allright.

George

[daftyman]

just had a look at www.zenkyoshin.com
great stuff! especially the funnies and the inspirations.

[Sandus]

I'd recommmend going and taking a look. Since you have a good idea of what a class is supposed to be like, it'll tip you off if anything seems weird. With that said, I've never seen a taiji class that teaches bagua and xingyi too, so now I'm actually a bit curious. It does say they teach the YCF style though, so you may actually have a head start if you join up.

[Syd]

I had a read of the blurb, they seem a bit Dojo-ish for my personal taste with white Karate style uniforms and belts. People are graded in other Taiji systems but it is done without the belts and the Karate uniforms. I prefer the less formal nature of Taiji instruction, but it's a matter of taste. The other thing they didn't mention, that they seem to feel exclusive about, is that all good teachers of Taijiquan have their students perform the forms on both sides for ultimate balance. The lineage, if that matters to you, seems good and they seem to have the Old and New Yang styles happening, both good signs.

[guza]

Big Hello to everybody from student of ZenKyoShin school ! ;)

[gurugeorge]

Go with the real instruction. I ain't sayin' nuffink about Erle Montaigue, but even if it were Yang Zhenduo's or Chen Xiaowang's tapes you'd been trying to learn from, you'd still be better off going with a real teacher. Tapes and stuff are only valuable if you've had some real instruction (when they can indeed be very useful).

Although having said that, I have my doubts about the outfit at that URL too - I don't know anything for sure, but all I can say is I've never heard of the main guy (Tschoung or whatever his name is) and the only lineage connection I'd rate there is Kuo Lien Ying, and that connection is quite far back from your local teachers. IMHO and FWIW, just based on my own puny researches and very small experience, I'd rank that school as probably sincere, but not necessarily knowing very much. You might learn some basics, I suppose (and again, you'd learn them a million times better than trying to learn off a tape), but I wouldn't expect too much if I were you.

Often what happens is that you find someone who "studied" with XYZ, but when you look closely it was only for a few months, and then they "fill in" the rest of what they offer as Taiji with bits and bobs they've learnt from other places - and after all, who's to know? If you think about it, in a few months, it's actually impossible to learn very much at all. Taiji doesn't "rub off" through merely having met someone.

The fact is, good TJQ instruction is extremely rare - much, much, much rarer than you'd think. Sorry if this depresses you - I know it depressed me when I came to that conclusion! :)

However, you live in a part of the world where it's less rare than in many other parts of the world. Try those guys for a while, and if you're happy, great, but if you start to hanker for something else there are quite a few reasonably authentic Chen style teachers in California, and if you look at the Yang family website (http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com), you might find someone reasonably close to you who's part of their Association. Don't be afraid to check out other branches of the Yang lineage and Wu style stuff too - if it's authentic, it's all good, all Taiji, and the style matter far less than the teacher having had some solid tuition for many years with somebody "name". (Lest I be misunderstood on this point, I'm not saying "no-name" people are necessarily bad, it's just that connection with a "name" raises your chances of finding something decent. A bit.)

[Syd]

Go with the real instruction. I ain't sayin' nuffink about Erle Montaigue ...

What would you say?

and if you look at the Yang family website (http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com), you might find someone reasonably close to you who's part of their Association.

Sadly I don't rate the modern Yang family with the kind of Taiji I would want to be learning as it's somewhat lacking in combat substance, personally. They know it too and have no problem with that and I can actually respect that. The modern flavour of the current Yang lineage, is what it is, and if thats what you want, fine.

... the style matter far less than the teacher having had some solid tuition for many years with somebody "name". (Lest I be misunderstood on this point, I'm not saying "no-name" people are necessarily bad, it's just that connection with a "name" raises your chances of finding something decent. A bit.)

I very recently visited the son of a major Wu Style family lineage holder who's connection remains to this day, right back to mainland China. The son was tutored by his father who is a reknowned, highly revered, well known ( I have magazine articles with this guy in it ) and respected Wu stylist. The experience was so appallingly bad I have no words to express it. People with name reputations have been a huge dissapointment more often than the no-name teachers I have visited with. Some people train for years with a name teacher and remain woeful. Some of the name teachers are woeful also!

Just wanted to add balance to the discussion.

[daftyman]

... People with name reputations have been a huge dissapointment more often than the no-name teachers I have visited with. Some people train for years with a name teacher and remain woeful. Some of the name teachers are woeful also!

Just wanted to add balance to the discussion.

This is exactly what I feel with regards to the following thread:
Origins - does it really matter?

Personally, I'd still give the class a go. At least then you'll know for yourself whether you like it or not. I can hold a glass of water and tell you how it tastes, but the only real way to find out is to taste it yourself.

Its all experience. If it's bad, then you'll know what to avoid. If it's good, then you may get a lot from it. You can always go back to the videos later. It takes such a long time time really get into taiji, that a delay of a couple of months isn't going to affect you much.

As for Erle and his videos? Well I think they are among the best out there for the amount of stuff he puts in them. Lots of detail and the quality is pretty good as well. Not too pricey either. Infact I think you can get his Yang Cheng Fu for free by download! Good stuff for sure, just not my cup of green tea.

[gurugeorge]

Some people train for years with a name teacher and remain woeful. Some of the name teachers are woeful also!

Agreed, there are bound to be some duds, but I was talking about the best chances somebody would have of finding something good from a position of knowing nothing.

Every Western sport or skill has its own "world" of aficionados - there are discussions, going on constantly, magazines devoted to the subject, standards organisations, etc.,and in that process of sifting, people who are into that sport or skill generally have some idea of who's good and who's not. Standards of judgement arise. People whom the consensus reckons are good get a name. The name isn't a guarantee, but it's some kind of basis to start from, for somebody who develops an interest in that sport or skill.

I see no reason to think it's any different in Chinese MA.

The best thing to do to find good MA instruction, IMHO, is go to see as many appearances and seminars by people who are recognised "names" in the Chinese MA world (both mainland and TW/HK) as possible - as many as you can afford. Then, at least:-

a) you might be lucky and get training from a good "name" coach after all; failing that, then at least:

b) by entering into the "world" of that sport, you are more likely to catch wind of "no-name" coaches who are actually good, and:

c) you are more likely to start to develop a "feel" for what constitutes that skill, criteria for judging what's good and what's not, and therefore you might be able to understand what you are seeing if you look at some local "no-name" guy - and who knows, you might get lucky and find some "no-name" teacher who's good!

The other well-known method of seeking tuition in Chinese MA - i.e. hoping that one is going to find some "secret" guy who's really high level who just happens to teach locally - is a non-starter IMHO.

[Syd]

This is exactly what I feel with regards to the following thread: Origins - does it really matter?

I know where you're coming from VR but the context of this discussion is a little different from that of the origins debate, in this sense. Yes it's well and truly possible to train with a teacher who has lineage who may be utterly *****, but I am referring to those teachers who have their stuff together and have a lineage to back it up.

You have to visit with these people in order to taste the flavour of their water as you put it. On the whole though it is indeed the man that makes the art. I actually consider Erle to be one of those no-name teachers in as much as he isn't about pushing himself in magazines and glossy advertisements. He has a meagre website that's totally free from high skilled web page design overkill and he talks the talk and walks the walk.

Frankly, of the many Chinese guys I have visited with, Erle is the most authentic and complete. Most of the aforementioned haven't got a freakin clue! :rolleyes:

[Syd]

Every Western sport or skill has its own "world" of aficionados - there are discussions, going on constantly, magazines devoted to the subject, standards organisations, etc.,and in that process of sifting, people who are into that sport or skill generally have some idea of who's good and who's not. Standards of judgement arise. People whom the consensus reckons are good get a name. The name isn't a guarantee, but it's some kind of basis to start from, for somebody who develops an interest in that sport or skill.

Agreed, there are no absolutes in what you have said and we both seem to recognize that. I think my concern with the consensus sometimes is that I don't trust it. Infact I trust the consensus less than I would trust my own eyes and ears. What I mean by that is that if the judge of great modern Taiji is borne out by the support of much of whats on offer today then it proves my problem with the consensus in that everbody strives for mediocrity ... they just don't know the difference.

Allot of these seminars that are held by the silk pyjamma set are for the birds quite frankly. You may get shown a few nice moves and thirty different ways to cure your structural alignment issues but whats really going on in a 2 or 3 hour seminar? Allot of the consensus attributes kudos where hype resides and people are keen to kid themselves when they've forked out allot of cash for middle of the road Taiji ... afterall, do they know the difference?

I think the only way to know whats great and whats not is to read widely, visit widely, train deeply and question what you are shown in the spirit of the teachings. Knowing what you want from Taijiquan is as important as anything else because without that how do you know what to look for? Most people practice the Taiji they're shown but few people find theTaiji they're looking for!

Know what you want first then by discernment will you know how to find it.

[gurugeorge]

Allot of the consensus attributes kudos where hype resides and people are keen to kid themselves when they've forked out allot of cash for middle of the road Taiji ... afterall, do they know the difference?

But how are they going to know the difference anyway? What basis does someone starting from scratch have? They might go to some local school, see the teacher throw people around a bit in a reasonably impressive way - but how do they know that what they are seeing is Taiji and not something the teacher has just cobbled together to make money?

You can't expect "name" teachers to teach much more than the basics in their seminars. The real point of going to a seminar isn't to learn anything high level, it's to get a feel for how someone who's good moves. There is a distinctive "feel" to genuine "internal" movement that you start to get a sense of, then you start to recognise it when you see it in others - or when it's missing in others.

Know what you want first then by discernment will you know how to find it.

Sounds a bit mystical to me. I'd say, first see people who are good, then you've got something to go by - after all, you might imagine that what you want is being offered by the skill you are interested in, but you might be wrong - the skill you are investigating might actually offer no such thing.

And your only entry into what "good" means is the consensus of the "world" (i.e. the world of discourse about the skill you are interested in) that you are entering (in the case of Chinese MA, obviously, the Chinese MA world, but especially for "internal" arts, the mainland Chinese MA world). It's not a perfect guide, but it's the only guide that exists for a beginner, and is better than wishful thinking.

[daftyman]

"Invest in loss"

An alternative to the above, and in fact what the above statement refers to is:

"The fearlessness to suffer loss"

What the hell am I going on about now? Well for the newbie, just starting out on the taiji path, he/she needs to be fearless about losing. Fearless about getting it wrong. Nobody gets it right first time, we make mistakes and learn by them. We get stuck right into it, and try. We fail to begin with, or 'lose', but gradually, gradually, we improve. The fact that we have tried a wide variety of things at the start has allowed us to make an 'educated' choice on how to continue.

At the start, and for quite a long time after that, you make mistakes. If you worry too much about making mistakes, you won't do anything. If you do nothing, how are you going to learn? You make a mistake, realise that it was a mistake, and learn something from it.

We can learn more from our failures than our successes.

[Sgt_Major]

good post

[Syd]

But how are they going to know the difference anyway? What basis does someone starting from scratch have?

As I said ... "read widely, visit widely, train deeply and question what you are shown in the spirit of the teachings."

This means not necessarily listening to the consensus but instead rely on your own senses based on constant application of research. Most people plump for the first thing they run into. Visit allot of schools, read allot of materials regarding the subject and examine the teachings surrounding the art to come to your own consensus.

You can't expect "name" teachers to teach much more than the basics in their seminars. The real point of going to a seminar isn't to learn anything high level, it's to get a feel for how someone who's good moves.

My point is that seminars aren't the place for beginners, a good school or personal tutor who can guide them week to week is preferable. Paying allot of money to see how somebody good moves is subjective. Allot of good people aren't considered good by allot of other people. Some people know how to move well but there's no internal content or martial instinct. If you don't know what good is then a seminar is no better than anything else. You can buy allot of lessons for the price of a 2 - 3 hour seminar. My advice to a beginner is stay away from those.

There is a distinctive "feel" to genuine "internal" movement that you start to get a sense of, then you start to recognise it when you see it in others - or when it's missing in others.

The means of discovering this is by virtue of personal investigation, the road less travelled is generally the better path in the Taiji world; another reason I would suggest steering away from the big names and consensus driven recommendations.

Sounds a bit mystical to me.

Hardly, it's a matter of knowing what you want first. Do you want the combat and healing aspects of Taijiquan? Do you want the purely health aspects? Do you want something which focusses on a certain weapon set and particular teaching style? By doing your own research into the art and knowing what you want you will more readily be able to zero in on the type of teacher or school that suits you best, rather than floundering around without satisfaction not knowing why. It's called discernment, if thats mystical then call me Merlin.

I'd say, first see people who are good,

Even in the IMA world this is highly subjective. Schools or systems tend to attract a certain group or following which supports that system warts and all and every teacher or group has it's zealots. I think any intelligent beginner can do well from a wide reading list, the Taiji classics, a few choice magazines which cater to the art and going off and visiting as many schools as they can in order to watch and discern. There are allot of people who say such and such is good, and they aren't. So much for the consensus! There are allot of people who think they are good, and they aren't! So much for the consensus. You have to discover what is good, you can't be told.

Thats my point.

And your only entry into what "good" means is the consensus of the "world" (i.e. the world of discourse about the skill you are interested in) that you are entering (in the case of Chinese MA, obviously, the Chinese MA world, but especially for "internal" arts, the mainland Chinese MA world). It's not a perfect guide, but it's the only guide that exists for a beginner, and is better than wishful thinking.

You say look to others for the answers, I say look within. Wishful thinking is looking to the consensus for answers ... mediocrity rules. Discernment is the birthright tool at the disposal of every beginner, I suggest they use it.

[gurugeorge]

You say look to others for the answers, I say look within. Wishful thinking is looking to the consensus for answers ... mediocrity rules. Discernment is the birthright tool at the disposal of every beginner, I suggest they use it.


Well, I guess we're just going to go round in circles here. I think you're offering really terrible advice for beginners here, but you seem to think the same of me, so I guess we're even ;)

Your appeal to individual discernment is good general advice for life, but it's not necessarily good advice when you're looking for something specific. And it's easy to get a cheesy sort of agreement from the peanut gallery that "seminars are a rip-off maaan", but actually that's b******s. If you go to a seminar by Chen Xiaowang, Chen Zhenglei, Wang Haijun, Yang Zhenduo, Yang Jun, Li Tailiang, Lou Dexiu, people like that, you are seeing their respective arts at a top level - there is none of the usual "my teacher/your teacher" crap with these people, they are people who the largest proportion of people who are interested in this stuff all agree are gold standard. The point about people like this is precisely that there is little disagreement, little of the usual hemming and hawing. That's what I mean by consensus. And if you're really interested in seeing what "good" means, then you have to pay the money (and while I'd agree that some of them "milk it", I'd say it doesn't matter - there's still no alternative, if you really want to know what "good" means).

And if you go to see them, you see a style of movement, a whole "vibe" of something that's very different from Joe Blow's "secret" Yang this and XYZ's "imperial" Bagua that down at the local mall. And if you've got any brains you'll learn the basics they will undoubtedly give you (basics being all they can give you in that kind of format), and practice them till you're blue in the face. Then you'll have a standard, a criterion to work with.

But of course, hardly anybody does.

[Syd]

Well, I guess we're just going to go round in circles here. I think you're offering really terrible advice for beginners here, but you seem to think the same of me, so I guess we're even ;)

I don't think your offering terrible advice, but a kind I'm not so keen on. I think your advice naturally is a product of your personal take on Taijiquan and what passes for muster ... whose isn't? I think we are diametrically opposed because of what we personally count for excellence.

Your appeal to individual discernment is good general advice for life, but it's not necessarily good advice when you're looking for something specific.

Everything contained within your life is specific when you break it down. Life is just a pile of specifics in a heap, the advice applies across the board as it's not the kind of thing that only applies in certain circumstances. It's a virtue par excellence.

And it's easy to get a cheesy sort of agreement from the peanut gallery that "seminars are a rip-off maaan", but actually that's b******s.

I think intermediate and advanced students have much to gain from seeing some of the good people, while not all of the people giving seminars are what I would call great. Good is good, great is better. Beginners can't really get started in a seminar, it's too short and the people giving seminars already assume prior knowledge. As for the peanut gallery, I've not ever heard that kind of response about seminars. Generally the feedback has always been erudite and adult and so has the praise or criticism. My point is that beginners are lost in these events.

If you go to a seminar by Chen Xiaowang, Chen Zhenglei, Wang Haijun, Yang Zhenduo, Yang Jun, Li Tailiang, Lou Dexiu, people like that, you are seeing their respective arts at a top level -

They are name people thats for sure and they sure are at the top level of something ... but is it what you want? There are poor students of all the above teachers and teachers don't always make great students or teach their art well. There are people who don't consider some of the above names as the top in what they do. Personally I would rather learn Taijiquan from a student of the Yang Shao Hou line than the Yang Jun and the modern day Yangs.

As I said, I respect these people for the kind of Taiji they teach but it's not my idea of Taiji. There are many other nameless teachers who have legitimate lineages to the earlier Yangs who I would much rather see a prospective beginner train with than the flag bearers we see today. I've seen a few flag bearers and thats about all it is. Some people are easily impressed by an inheritance and expect that it promises a continuity of quality, this is not often the case though and marquee's come crashing down or they are held up with veneer. There's allot of style over substance out there and then there's allot of substance thats insubstantial.

there is none of the usual "my teacher/your teacher" crap with these people, they are people who the largest proportion of people who are interested in this stuff all agree are gold standard.

Again ... the concensus. Much of which I might add is based around inheritance and cult of personality/hero worship. Gold standards are subjective and allot of gold standards promise more than they deliver too.

The point about people like this is precisely that there is little disagreement...

Ofcourse not, who's going to disrupt the business of the syndicate? They know the west is the goose that laid the golden egg and that most occidentals are ga-ga for eastern mysticism. Any Chinese guy in a silk suit who looks the part and moves "good" might as well be Yoda. Go to mainland China and there are incredible old Chinese men, totally unknown is almost every park in town! In the west the families are engaged in a huge marketing exercise and ofcourse what they standardise is the gold standard. I mean if the son of Ferrari starts making cheap cars and slaps a Ferrari badge on them and sells them for the same price as Enzo, ya think people care or know the difference? Well some do.

... little of the usual hemming and hawing. That's what I mean by consensus. And if you're really interested in seeing what "good" means, then you have to pay the money (and while I'd agree that some of them "milk it", I'd say it doesn't matter - there's still no alternative, if you really want to know what "good" means).

Good is good, great is better. Good is totally subjective, so is great. Since all these things are subjective to begin with I suggest doing your own research, read widely, visit multiple schools and educate yourself. Then by means of discernment can you find what you seek. Gold standards are nice rubbery titles that people use to bounce around trying to find some purchase of validity when in actual fact they are not worth much more than the imaginary paper they're printed on. They're like gold coins with chocolate centers, they sure are tasty but they're insubstantial.

And if you go to see them, you see a style of movement, a whole "vibe" of something that's very different from Joe Blow's "secret" Yang this and XYZ's "imperial" Bagua that down at the local mall.

Go to any park in China and you'll be inundated by a whole vibe thats different from X,Y,Z. You'll see 50 different styles of Qigong within a quarter of a mile! Is being different from something any better than something else? Different is subjective, better is subjective, good is subjective. There are no gold standards but those discovered by discernment and subjective analysis.

And if you've got any brains you'll learn the basics they will undoubtedly give you (basics being all they can give you in that kind of format), and practice them till you're blue in the face. Then you'll have a standard, a criterion to work with.

So if they don't, they don't have brains? For a beginner to walk into a seminar and learn a bit of abstract form is a huge ask. A beginner needs to begin at the beginning not the middle or the end or be tutored in some abstract element of Da Lu etc. If you were really thinking about how Taiji looks and feels to a beginner you would quickly realize that these places are alienating because a seminar is not designed to teach the form basics from opening ... this rarely if ever happens. What use is it for a beginner to learn a few abstract moves and then go away with those moves. It's like having only two random pieces from a 10,000 piece jigsaw! Seminars are designed for people with some prior working knowledge of the form and Taijiquan generally. The money for a beginner is always better spent going to a local school of some merit and slowly learning the basics. Thats a criterion to work with, two abstract bits a jigsaw isn't.

But of course, hardly anybody does.

And yet...

[gurugeorge]

Different is subjective, better is subjective, good is subjective.

Sorry Syd, old fruit, I just can't go along with that. If we were talking about the difference between Michaelangelo and Beethoven, sure, but we're talking about a martial art here - it's physical, it's tangible, something you can see and feel.

If I go to a seminar, and see people who have their own schools in the host country, who have been doing years of "Taiji" as it's commonly done in that country, be shown to be almost infantile in their level of attainment compared to the guy who's doing the seminar, what should I think? I mean there's a whole passel of logical implications one could draw from that, right?

I mean, if I'm a member of a rowing club, and an Olympic champion is invited to visit and give us some hints and tips and regale us with tales of his glory days, the guys in the rowing club shouldn't be positively embarrassing in comparison to him, right? I mean they should all know how to hold an oar, how to paddle with good form, etc., etc.?

If they can't do these basic things, if the difference isn't just one of quality, but is so great that it seems like they're doing a different sport, then whatever the hell it is they've been doing, if what they've wanted to learn and practice is Olympic rowing, then they've been wasting their time, because it's nothing like what he's doing.

The beginner, who's dipping their toes, can't afford to go to China, find the right amazing old man in the park, etc.. But he can go to a few seminars to canvass what the consensus reckons is good: his purpose isn't to learn anything yet, just to play around and get a feel for the territory. Your brave, individualistic stance seems a bit overblown - consensus has its problems, but it isn't that bad.

If the beginner takes your route, his chances of finding anything local that's good are pretty low because of the relative scarcity of the real thing, which is a logical implication of the vastness of China and the relative scarcity of the real thing even in China. By spending time doing local things first, he has a big risk of wasting his time making his body learn stuff that is irrelevant and that he'll just have to unlearn later. If he starts off with an accurate, objective take on things (that he'll get after going to a few seminars and then checking out some local classes), he's less likely to waste the time and money he plumps down for extended training.

My last point: at a deeper, philosophical level, it also has to be said that "subjective" isn't synonymous with "arbitrary".

[daftyman]

An absolute beginner (not even learned a solo form completely yet, only been to class for a couple of weeks) goes to a seminar, the majority of the time is spent looking at principles of different areas of the form. Our beginner doesn't even know for sure which foot goes where, so why should he worry about principles in that amount of depth?

Better that the teacher attend the seminar, that way he can impart the knowledge when the guy is ready.

There is no point going to a seminar, if you know nothing. You need at least a basic foundation first. That way you will be better able to take advantage of what's on offer.

[Syd]

Sorry Syd, old fruit, I just can't go along with that. If we were talking about the difference between Michaelangelo and Beethoven, sure, but we're talking about a martial art here - it's physical, it's tangible, something you can see and feel.

People within the martial arts world are equated with the Michaels and Ludwigs and the camps are often just as divided. Both music and art are tangible and the assessment of their excellence is achieved no differently than the assessment of Taijiquan. It was a poor analogy. There is art for artists as there is art for plebes.

If I go to a seminar, and see people who have their own schools in the host country, who have been doing years of "Taiji" as it's commonly done in that country, be shown to be almost infantile in their level of attainment compared to the guy who's doing the seminar, what should I think? I mean there's a whole passel of logical implications one could draw from that, right?

Sure, but anyone who really knows their sh*t isn't attending those seminars anyway. You seem content to compare the local Taiji plebe with seminar guru's. Teachers who are at the top of their game aren't found milling about at seminars looking bad and though it's another artifical analogy that might serve your argument it just doesn't happen.

I mean, if I'm a member of a rowing club, and an Olympic champion ...

Olympic champs, gold standards ... I'm getting a theme here. So you are equating seminar guys with Gold Standards and Olympic standards but the fact of the matter is that there are people out there giving seminars that shouldn't be. Your giving gold standards to anyone who can get the capital together to mount a trip overseas with their name on a banner. I'm sorry me "old fruit" but that doesn't jibe with this cat one iota. Your assertian that seminars are the rubric for beginners is at best a hit and miss affair. Furthermore your assumption that excellent Taijiquan teachers can only be found at seminars is also drawing an insanely long bow. They can be found locally and outside China but you have to use your discernment and powers of research to find them.

If they can't do these basic things, if the difference isn't just one of quality, but is so great that it seems like they're doing a different sport, then whatever the hell it is they've been doing, if what they've wanted to learn and practice is Olympic rowing, then they've been wasting their time, because it's nothing like what he's doing.

There are so many ways of doing the same thing and so many schools and standards within branches. Somebody doing something different from another Taijiquan practitioner is like stars in the night sky! There's more than one way to row a boat and plenty of different boats out there to row ... how you get from A to B, how you want to get from A to B, these are of individual subjectivity. Your gold standard is variable from one place to another, it is not absolute no matter how much you'd like it to be. There are great Taijiquan practitioners of different styles who perform their arts with a great deal of difference in execution, martial and internal content and any number of postural alignments to speak of.

If we were to follow your analogy, a great Dragon Boat rowing champ could turn up at an Olympic rowing seminar and be seen doing something different by a beginner who is just getting interested in rowing. He doesn't yet know what kind of rowing he wants to do but he turns up and some guy points out the Dragon boat rower and says ... "Hey man, see how that guy holds his oars and moves through the water, thats just soooo bad man!" So the beginner goes away assuming the Dragon Boat guy is lame at rowing and the Olympic champ has the monopoly on every method of moving through the water? Thats just hilarious and narrow minded.

There are people in the world who exist outside seminars who are superb at their art. There are people who exists inside seminars who are woeful at their art. Thats the fact of the matter, telling beginners to go to seminars is a red herring in my view.

The beginner, who's dipping their toes, can't afford to go to China

They don't have to, there are plenty of good teachers in the west. Going to China isn't the be all and end all either, I was making a point which you might have failed to notice.

... find the right amazing old man in the park, etc.. But he can go to a few seminars to canvass what the consensus reckons is good:

Your setting up seminars as though they are the be all and end all of what constitutes valid Taijiquan by consensus. It's this very paradigm that you use to couch your argument that smacks of a kind of conditioned fervour. Could nothing outside of the Silk PJ seminar be of any worth at all? Could that not be a possibility? If you go to a pub thats serves only one type of beer and ask the regular beer drinkers what their consensus view of beer is, they are likely to tell you it's what they've got in their hand.

Et voila!

If the beginner takes your route, his chances of finding anything local that's good are pretty low ...

Infact they are likely about the same actually, no better and no worse. The beginner is only going to get 2 hours of Guru Blah Blah and will have to seek out a full time local teacher anyway! Their time is better spent focussing on the teacher they can put a hand to week to week than pinning the tail on the Donkey for 2 hours once every year.

... because of the relative scarcity of the real thing, which is a logical implication of the vastness of China and the relative scarcity of the real thing even in China. By spending time doing local things first, he has a big risk of wasting his time making his body learn stuff that is irrelevant and that he'll just have to unlearn later.

This is an assumed paradigm which you treat like an absolute. The "real thing" in case you hadn't noticed continues to be hotly debated within IMA circles still ... it is largely subjective. I'm not talking about the local community centre hero but the established branches and schools and teachers out there. Your assuming that a beginner could not find someone local to them of worth. Well you've really painted these poor b*astards into a corner haven't you? *L*

They must go to seminars where they learn 3 immaculate moves and then work on them all year until the Guru returns a year later! In the meantime, there is no use searching for a local teacher because lets face it, they are so rare it's time wasted! Wow ... great advice.

If he starts off with an accurate, objective take on things (that he'll get after going to a few seminars and then checking out some local classes), he's less likely to waste the time and money he plumps down for extended training.

Oh, ok ... so after spending about 1K on seminars, waiting for those seminars to roll around months apart for an entire year, looking at three different teachers do things completely differently and in many cases teaching different aspects and emphasizing those aspects - the beginner can go in search of a crap local teacher who will never live up to all the confusion they were exposed to at these shining temples of Taiji wisdom? Confusion and dissapointment soon follow.

My last point: at a deeper, philosophical level, it also has to be said that "subjective" isn't synonymous with "arbitrary".

Who said it was?

[Syd]

There is no point going to a seminar, if you know nothing. You need at least a basic foundation first. That way you will be better able to take advantage of what's on offer.

Et voila! :)

[Shadowdh]

Gosh I have been following this with some interest and I must say that I agree with both Syd and GuruG here...

When I decided I would practice taiji I first did alot of research... heck I wasnt even aware that taiji had more than one form and thought that it was mainly for new agers waving their arms about or old folk as they couldnt lift the weights I could... boy did I find out in a very short time how wrong I was... I then looked through masses of info and its amazing how quick you learn what claims are real and what claims are perhaps bogus... (although it does pay to keep the mind open as I have found on numerous occasions...).. I then started looking for books and dvds that could start me off while I searched out classes/teachers... I started to learn CMC at first (but didnt know it was CMC till further learing had taken place... I just thought it was the one taiji...lol boy how naive I was)... After further research I decided that Chen and Yang style were the two styles I would like to focus on... I finally decided on Chen style as what I was looking for and am very happy with my choice...

I have also found that by attending classes and seminars that I can see a big difference between the good & the great and the uummm not so good & great...

So I guess what I am trying to say is that by doing both research and finding out what you want and going to view classes and seminars is perhaps the best way to find the right thing for you...

Also you mentioned Shifu Wang Haijun... who just happens to be my Shifu (well Laoshi as I havent been invited to call him Shifu yet... hey I am a traditionalist and like to respect some of the old traditions... what can I say)... and I can say that he is a brilliant teacher who walks the talk... but as Syd mentions if its not Chen style youre after then He would not be the teacher for you...

[Syd]

So I guess what I am trying to say is that by doing both research and finding out what you want and going to view classes and seminars is perhaps the best way to find the right thing for you...

Agreed but you need to know something before you attend seminars, the beginner is out of their depth otherwise.

[gurugeorge]

Sure, but anyone who really knows their sh*t isn't attending those seminars anyway. You seem content to compare the local Taiji plebe with seminar guru's. Teachers who are at the top of their game aren't found milling about at seminars looking bad and though it's another artifical analogy that might serve your argument it just doesn't happen.

So you've never been to any of those kinds of seminars? I thought you said you had! :)

Olympic champs, gold standards ... I'm getting a theme here. So you are equating seminar guys with Gold Standards and Olympic standards but the fact of the matter is that there are people out there giving seminars that shouldn't be.

Are you going to tell me that any of the people I mentioned above shouldn't be giving seminars? Come on Syd, I dare you - go for it!

Your assertian that seminars are the rubric for beginners is at best a hit and miss affair. Furthermore your assumption that excellent Taijiquan teachers can only be found at seminars is also drawing an insanely long bow.

Aooga!!! Aooga!!!! Strawman alert!!!!!

They can be found locally and outside China but you have to use your discernment and powers of research to find them.

This is getting comically circular: how are beginners going to develop powers of discernment until they've gotten some flavour of "good" and "bad" and are able to compare the two?

There are so many ways of doing the same thing and so many schools and standards within branches. Somebody doing something different from another Taijiquan practitioner is like stars in the night sky!

Actually no. If you go to a seminar by any of the people I named (and notice, they include Xingyi and Bagua guys, Chen and Yang), you'll see that even when the styles are different, there's something tantalisingly similar about the way they all move. And on top of that, all the Chen guys (to take the style I know most about, though my knowledge is a tiddly drop in the ocean) are almost completely consistent in what they do - they each have their own personal flavour, sure, and they all teach slightly differently in terms of what they teach when, but there are very few inconsistencies in what they teach, the body requirements, etc. Put it this way, you'd never be surprised if you went to, say, a Silk Reeling seminar by each of the Chen guys in turn.

If we were to follow your analogy, a great Dragon Boat rowing champ could turn up at an Olympic rowing seminar and be seen doing something different by a beginner who is just getting interested in rowing. He doesn't yet know what kind of rowing he wants to do but he turns up and some guy points out the Dragon boat rower and says ... "Hey man, see how that guy holds his oars and moves through the water, thats just soooo bad man!" So the beginner goes away assuming the Dragon Boat guy is lame at rowing and the Olympic champ has the monopoly on every method of moving through the water? Thats just hilarious and narrow minded.

I see I've failed to get the point of my analogy across. The premise is that our boys want to learn Olympic rowing. If they'd've wanted to learn Dragon boat rowing they'd've gone to a fr****n' Dragon boat rowing club. And the question of the virtues of Olympic rowing versus Dragon boat rowing is quite beside the point.

There are people in the world who exist outside seminars who are superb at their art. There are people who exists inside seminars who are woeful at their art. Thats the fact of the matter, telling beginners to go to seminars is a red herring in my view.

Once again, you keep making an absolutist strawman out of what I'm saying. It's about what a beginner has access to, if he wants to get a clear sense of the parameters of the art he's interested in. There's no guarantee with seminar people, obviously, but the chances are higher of finding some kind of standard AGAINST WHICH TO MEASURE LOCAL PEOPLE. IOW, there may be no garantee with seminar guys, but there's even less of a guarantee with a random selection of locals.

Methinks thou dost protest too much with thine harangues about the consensus. The consensus judgement regarding any skill can occasionally be wrong, but is usually broadly valid. David Beckham might not be the best football player in the world at any given time, and people might argue whether he's better or worse than, say, Andriy Shevchenko; but there'd be no argument that both those guys are right up there, and can safely be considered to be "good", if anyone is looking for an example of what "good football" looks like. You might find the occasional amateur who's good at football, maybe even better than Beckham, by trawling through your local parks, but the chances are lower. Moreover, once you've seen Beckham in action, it gives you something with which to compare the locals.

They don't have to, there are plenty of good teachers in the west. Going to China isn't the be all and end all either, I was making a point which you might have failed to notice.

Don't worry Syd, old bean, I'm quite alert to the point you're trying to make.

Your setting up seminars as though they are the be all and end all of what constitutes valid Taijiquan by consensus.

Hello, do I smell another strawman burning?

It's this very paradigm that you use to couch your argument that smacks of a kind of conditioned fervour. Could nothing outside of the Silk PJ seminar be of any worth at all? Could that not be a possibility? If you go to a pub thats serves only one type of beer and ask the regular beer drinkers what their consensus view of beer is, they are likely to tell you it's what they've got in their hand.

But obviously that's not the kind of consensus I'm talking about, oh fashioner of convenient strawmen. The point about the "names" I gave you, for instance, is that the consensus is cross-style, etc., and is formed simply amongst enthusiast of Chinese MA in general. Log onto messageboards, read MA magazines, talk to Chinese people about what the Chinese MA consensus (mainland, HK, TW) is, and these sorts of people (and many others) come up consistently.

And of course, for the umpteenth time, there are bound to be some people who are good outside this consensus. But again, that's quite beside the point.

Infact they are likely about the same actually, no better and no worse. The beginner is only going to get 2 hours of Guru Blah Blah and will have to seek out a full time local teacher anyway! Their time is better spent focussing on the teacher they can put a hand to week to week than pinning the tail on the Donkey for 2 hours once every year.

From any seminar, you're only likely to be able to take home one or two things to practice. Once again, THAT'S NOT THE POINT. What you learn at the seminar isn't as relevant as getting a flavour of what the consensus reckons is "good". You can keep setting up your strawmen, but I'll keep pointing this out.

This is an assumed paradigm which you treat like an absolute.

What, it's an "assumed paradigm" that China is a vast country, in which MA are comparatively obscure, and IMA even more obscure? It's an assumed paradigm that there's a Chinese MA community (on the mainland, HK, TW, Malaysia, etc.) that has a consensus opinion about what, generally, counts as "good" when it comes to Chinese MA? Where, exactly, is the "assumed paradigm" in what I'm saying?

The "real thing" in case you hadn't noticed continues to be hotly debated within IMA circles still ... it is largely subjective.

Funny MA circles you move in.

[Syd]

George.

We are still at cross purposes and I fear any continuance is now futile on my part. I still disagree with your take on this and yet I have said all I can about it; I'm not interested in converting you to my perspective and any mission in the reciprocal is doomed to failure. I might be tempted to fire back some responses to the more oblique remarks in your last but all in all we've both had a fair whack at what we wanted to say and in the interests of civility the bench rests.

Let the reader garner from our discourse what they will and as the French say ... 'Pffft!'

[daftyman]

There are seminars and there are seminars.

Some are good/excellent with incredible teachers, and anyone going along with some knowledge of taiji will get a lot from it.

There are also crap seminars with teachers who are only after your wallet!

How can you tell the difference? At the start it will be difficult, and certainly the more experience you have, the more discerning you will become.

How much experience should you have before going to a seminar? Well, you should at least know a 'short form' so that you will be able to join in with the rest of the class. These seminars are not usually about learning the form from scratch, but improving on what is already learned.

As for which teachers are worth seeing and which should be avoided? The advice that you'll get from people will be based on their preferences and experiences, they might not necessarily be appropriate to your own particular study.

[Shadowdh]

This is getting comically circular: how are beginners going to develop powers of discernment until they've gotten some flavour of "good" and "bad" and are able to compare the two?

and...

But obviously that's not the kind of consensus I'm talking about, oh fashioner of convenient strawmen. The point about the "names" I gave you, for instance, is that the consensus is cross-style, etc., and is formed simply amongst enthusiast of Chinese MA in general. Log onto messageboards, read MA magazines, talk to Chinese people about what the Chinese MA consensus (mainland, HK, TW) is, and these sorts of people (and many others) come up consistently.

Are linked somewhat and the latter actually points very much in favour of what Syd is saying... as a beginner I did ALOT of reading and research (by logging onto boards and reading books etc...) and then I went to a couple of classes/seminars... by combining both I found what I was looking for... doing prior research I got an idea of what I wanted and where I should look and then by going to see a class (or two or three) and seminar I found what I wanted and what is good...

Actually no. If you go to a seminar by any of the people I named (and notice, they include Xingyi and Bagua guys, Chen and Yang), you'll see that even when the styles are different, there's something tantalisingly similar about the way they all move. And on top of that, all the Chen guys (to take the style I know most about, though my knowledge is a tiddly drop in the ocean) are almost completely consistent in what they do - they each have their own personal flavour, sure, and they all teach slightly differently in terms of what they teach when, but there are very few inconsistencies in what they teach, the body requirements, etc. Put it this way, you'd never be surprised if you went to, say, a Silk Reeling seminar by each of the Chen guys in turn.

Actually I go to two different Shifus to learn Chen style and they were both taught by the same master... now the forms are pretty much the same and so is their style of teaching but whlist the differences are not vast there are still some transitions that are done differently or postures that may have variances... also there are differences between forms in Lao Jia with some differences in transitions (less circular in one than another for eg or in postures (green dragon emerges is one such difference that I have found between some performances of Lao Jia)... its all still Chen style taiji as you say but the differences are there...


Once again, you keep making an absolutist strawman out of what I'm saying. It's about what a beginner has access to, if he wants to get a clear sense of the parameters of the art he's interested in. There's no guarantee with seminar people, obviously, but the chances are higher of finding some kind of standard AGAINST WHICH TO MEASURE LOCAL PEOPLE. IOW, there may be no garantee with seminar guys, but there's even less of a guarantee with a random selection of locals.

That explains your position better... I agree that by just going to a random selection of local classes you have less chance of finding a bona fide teacher but with proper prior preperation you can significantly increase your chance of finding a good one...

[gurugeorge]

Shadowdh,

You are right about the preparation in terms of study, etc. - but that should be taken as given. Nobody ought to get into this without doing as much background reading, of all sides and shades of opinion, as possible!

It's the question of what the beginner's next step after that should be that's the sticking point between Syd and me.

If we were talking about Boxing, Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, anything like that, Syd's advice would be excellent. But we're talking about something which (as I said) is pretty rare and hard to get good tuition in even in China!

[Syd]

It's the question of what the beginner's next step after that should be that's the sticking point between Syd and me.

Oh no it isn't. Thats what you might be talking about but the beginner we are actually discussing here is an absolute beginner and at the very earliest stages in their form training ... sending them to seminars is exactly what I am saying they shouldn't do until they have acquired enough knowledge of the art and understanding of the permutations.

If we were talking about Boxing, Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, anything like that, Syd's advice would be excellent. But we're talking about something which (as I said) is pretty rare and hard to get good tuition in even in China!

Finding excellent tuition in Boxing, Wrestling, Judo and BJJ is no different than finding it in Taijiquan, your kidding yourself if you think otherwise ... there are elites in all of the above systems and also a hell of allot of fodder too. Don't keep peddling your line after I've withdrawn and expect I'll stay silent. We have a difference of opinion and I've withdrawn for the sake of civility but your starting to shift goal posts after the fact.

We've made our points, the horse is well and truly flogged.

[gurugeorge]

So you seriously think there's as much good Taiji instruction around, say in the UK, as Boxing, Judo, Wrestling, even BJJ?

[Shadowdh]

Oopsy... I also took the discussion as meaning an absolute beginner...

I would also suggest that as an absolute beginner and looking to learn any of the MA you mentioned (heck make that learning anything) I would always do some research and looking around...

I can agree that there are many charlatans about when it comes to Taiji but with good research and prep work you should be able to find someone fairly decent to start you on the path... I found two and consider myself very lucky... sure I have to travel some but its worth it...

Also (forgive me if I have mistaken your meaning Syd) but I think he is referring to how one goes about seeking a teacher rather than how many there are...

But definitely a beginner should experience seminars and perhaps even view several classes at different schools after the initial bit... it certainly gives a good overview and may even provide the next step... (boy have I been lucky to miss (or cross off the list) some very mcdojo taiji classes...)

[Syd]

So you seriously think there's as much good Taiji instruction around, say in the UK, as Boxing, Judo, Wrestling, even BJJ?

No, what I am saying is there is much bad/average instruction around in the above MA's as there is in Taijiquan and finding top tuition in all of the above is no different than finding it in Taijiquan.

I'm not going to be drawn any further, it's now become moot.

[Syd]

Oopsy... I also took the discussion as meaning an absolute beginner...

Well I thought we all did ... thats what it stemmed from at the outset.

I would also suggest that as an absolute beginner and looking to learn any of the MA you mentioned (heck make that learning anything) I would always do some research and looking around...

This is at the very heart of what I am saying.

I can agree that there are many charlatans about when it comes to Taiji but with good research and prep work you should be able to find someone fairly decent to start you on the path... I found two and consider myself very lucky... sure I have to travel some but its worth it...

So did I and they weren't found at seminars.

Also (forgive me if I have mistaken your meaning Syd) but I think he is referring to how one goes about seeking a teacher rather than how many there are...

Thats what I am referring to also, it never mattered how many there were. There are plenty of bad and some good and ever fewer great and all of these types can be found both on the seminar circuit and outside it. I just don't buy into the whole "Seminars" are the yard stick of excellence in Taijiquan, thats a crock and it smacks of a weird elitism based on a premise I have clarified elsewhere as odius.

But definitely a beginner should experience seminars and perhaps even view several classes at different schools after the initial bit... it certainly gives a good overview and may even provide the next step... (boy have I been lucky to miss (or cross off the list) some very mcdojo taiji classes...)

I think it's up to the individual to attend seminars or not but the bottom line is that seminars provide no better promise of progress in Taijiquan than classes with a great teacher whose class you frequent week in and week out. I think the main point I am making is that it is best to find a great teacher who you can put a hand to every week rather than spending time flitting about at seminars where the focus is so abstract. If a beginner finds a great teacher locally, and it's totally possible to find one, then they have a killer seminar at their fingetips teaching them solid foundations and the basics every week ... not just for two hours once in a blue moon. We are talking about the beginner here!

I can't be plainer than that. :)

[gurugeorge]

Oh no Syd, this is really starting to get interesting.

You are seriously comparing arts that are native to this culture and have a track record in open competition here (boxing, wrestling) and arts that have been around for a long, long time in this culture and have a track record in competition (judo), with an art that is not native to this culture, has no track record in competition here, is a foreign art from a foreign culture that has been fairly closed off from the West, and xenophobic, for centuries, that has only fairly recently (since the 80s) opened its doors a little bit to Western culture; an art that is obscure and difficult to find good instruction in, even in that foreign culture, for members of that foreign culture???

You really, seriously mean to make that comparison?

You really, seriously mean to say that if a person went to a random boxing club they'd be as likely to find the kind of meaningless "instruction" there as they'd find if they went to a random Taiji class?

[Syd]

Oh no Syd, this is really starting to get interesting.

On the contrary it has been boorish and now has progressed to the deeper internal levels of tedium! :rolleyes:

You are seriously comparing arts that are native to this culture and have a track record in open competition here (boxing, wrestling) and arts that have been around for a long, long time in this culture and have a track record in competition (judo), with an art that is not native to this culture, has no track record in competition here, is a foreign art from a foreign culture that has been fairly closed off from the West, and xenophobic, for centuries, that has only fairly recently (since the 80s) opened its doors a little bit to Western culture; an art that is obscure and difficult to find good instruction in, even in that foreign culture, for members of that foreign culture???

No, but it's interesting watching you beat yourself into an occidental lather trying to make it stick. I am not comparing the arts themselves brian, I am comparing the frequency and rate of bad to average and average to exceptional tuition that is likely on offer when viewing those arts as a whole. Per head of capita for each of those arts you would get about the same rate of result, depending on what aspects of those arts you were personally seeking to focus on. Your mystification of Taijiquan is typical of the western view which also neatly plugs into the whole seminar - silk - PJ - gold standard - elitism of excellence diatribe, that can only be found in that arena , attitude.

You really, seriously mean to say that if a person went to a random boxing club they'd be as likely to find the kind of meaningless "instruction" there as they'd find if they went to a random Taiji class?

Again this is largely subjective ... there is average, poor and exceptional instruction in boxing just as there is in Taijiquan; thats the point I am making. There are also allot more boxing schools in the west than there are Taijiquan schools. Depending on what people want to learn the level and degree of the tuition, people will assess the worth and value of that accordingly. In mainland China people do Taijiquan as regular day to day exercise, in the west many people are found boxing not for self defense but for cardio training. Where is the delf defense in boxing for cardio and the exceptional level of tuition in that? Whats the difference between that and people who teach Tai Chi as a moving health dance?

Sorry brian, we're heading for divorce. :)

[gurugeorge]

On the contrary it has been boorish and now has progressed to the deeper internal levels of tedium! :rolleyes:

If so, you seem to be a glutton for punishment :)

No, but it's interesting watching you beat yourself into an occidental lather trying to make it stick. I am not comparing the arts themselves brian, I am comparing the frequency and rate of bad to average and average to exceptional tuition that is likely on offer when viewing those arts as a whole. Per head of capita for each of those arts you would get about the same rate of result, depending on what aspects of those arts you were personally seeking to focus on.

I wasn't talking about the arts themselves either. You have great facility with that there pitchfork and string.

Your mystification of Taijiquan is typical of the western view which also neatly plugs into the whole seminar - silk - PJ - gold standard - elistism - of excellence diatribe that can only be found in that arena - attitude.

Where have I "mystified" TJQ? Do you deny that even in China, a vast, vast country, it's difficult, even for a Chinese native, to find good instruction in TJQ?

Again this is largely subjective ... there is average, poor and exceptional instruction in boxing just as there is in Taijiquan; thats the point I am making.

True, but (again, like your points about gems you can find if you look for 'em) irrelevant to the point I'm making. Is, or is not, the level of available boxing instruction generally higher (in some relevant senses) here in the West than the average level of TJQ instruction? If so, why?

There are also allot more boxing schools in the west than there are Taijiquan schools.

Exactly. The sport is widespread in our culture, standards are pretty broadly known by most people. Most people have seen real, often good boxing in action, etc., etc., right? So a greenhorn will have easy access to a surrounding culture that will help him pick a good school, faster, for whatever aspect he wishes to learn.

Clearly, obviously, the situation is vastly different with TJQ here in the West - and even in China, although it's obviously better, and there's more information around in the culture than here, the seeker still has to search quite hard and carefully, even for decent health-level instruction.

Where is the delf defense in boxing for cardio and the exceptional level of tuition in that? Whats the difference between that and people who teach Tai Chi as a moving health dance?

None. All that stuff cancels out. The distinction isn't between "health" aspects and "fighting" aspects. Even to get the health benefits IT HAS TO BE REAL TJQ, otherwise the "health benefits" are no different from those you'd get from doing Scottish Country Dancing (a fun and sociable pastime, btw! :) )

[Syd]

"It's groundhog day!" *L*

I can't go on George, if we slice a snow flake any thinner it'll be a world record. And yet we are once again chasing a red herring up entirely the wrong tree. I've made my points, you've made yours and never the twain shall meet.

This glutton just got full.

[daftyman]

... otherwise the "health benefits" are no different from those you'd get from doing Scottish Country Dancing (a fun and sociable pastime, btw! :) )
Hurrah! But how do you know you have found a good ceilidh band??? :D :D :D

At least we can agree to disagree.

Right! Who's up for an Orkadian strip the willow?

*merrily jigs off in to the distance*

[Wu_W3i]

I find it a bit funny aswell as a bit scary how many people here seem to belive there is one true Taiji and then if a newbie would go practice something else then that would be so bad! If it in some way develops better health/balance/strenght/body awerness and so on in the guy then Id say its something good regardless of where the instructor learnt his stuff or if that stuff is what some call real Taiji...

Now I myself like to practice the old stuff, thats why i study for Erle Montaigue, the old yang style, going back to the roots of it all. But if someone else like to do some changed style of Taiji for loosening up and relaxing and what not then whats the harm?

This attitude is why I like the community in MMA much more than in TMA. In MMA its "if it works its good" instead of "it doesnt matter if it works as long as **fill in chineese master name of your choiche** said its so".