Belt Rank

[Phi Nguyen]

Ok, you guys know there's many types of belts for every MA, but I'm confuse with all of them. In one art, the red belt is of higher rank than the same color in another art. Can anyone enlightment me on ALL the belt ranks in ALL martial arts?

[YODA]

Errrrr...... nope.

While we're at it can someone please tell me the exact cylinder firing order of every car & motorcycle currently on the market? Compression ratios too please.

[Cain]

The belt ranks are different for different arts...can't possibly describe them all, sometimes it will even vary upon the instructor...

|Cain|

[darlph]

like cain charlie and yod said. It is impossible because of the many instructors, styles, systems, instructors, and so on. This is where one of the most confusing things about martial arts. For instance in TKD in my school we have 10 belts no stripes, in another TKD school taught by a traditional taght instructor he may had 4 with stripes making up the difference for 10.
Very confusing and very human.

[Phi Nguyen]

What? What's the use of the belt rank if they're all different? You're right, it's very confusing.

[Slownsteady]

Phi,

Im sure most here will agree that the belt essentially holds our Gi together. I wouldn't put too much enphasis on colour. A better assessment of someones capability "may" be the length of time they have been training.

just my humble opinion

Mick

[Brad Ellin]

What's the use of names if they're all different? To tell each other apart, instead of going "hey you" and having 50 people say what. Belt ranks (supposedly) show the differences in skill and competence. So, each art and instructor and what have you will have a different grading system, be it belts, sashes, pins or patches.
In the Bujinkan there are only 3 belts. White, green and black. White=beginner, green=kyu rank and black=dan rank. The different kyu and dan rankings are/were denoted by different color patches and stars above the patches.

[ladyhawk]

A little bit of trivia...

The use of belts to denote skill levels were first used by Kano
Jigoro, the father of Judo, in the late 1890's. He got the idea from
colored sashes used by swimming teams. He adopted the use of white, brown, and black belts.

It took many years for Okinawan karate-ka to adopt the concept, and then only because it was a requirement to be recognized by the Butokukai (the martial arts organization of Japan).

[Phi Nguyen]

Ah, I get it. The colors represent something, but they're not all the same. Correct?

[Andrew Green]

Belts are a retention and motivation tool within a school or organization, although many don't like to admit it, thats what they are.

Train, have fun, learn more and try not to think about it too much.

[Phi Nguyen]

Also, i just remember that you can buy your own belts for 7 bucks or something...so all you fake black belts out there....

[Cain]

I think Andrew put it very well, don't care much about the belt, so what if you can buy a black belt for 7 bucks? Does it make you that good?

A belt is given to you by an instructor for your accomplishments, as a sign of your skill for passing a test.

You can't get the skill by buying the belt, you can get the belt by training hard

But if you train solely for the purpose of earning the belt then you have trapped yourself in a cage, that's not what martial arts is about...

|Cain|

[darlph]

Sure you can go out and buy a belt and make up a "history" but can you walk the talk? Going to 2nd Dan for me is a personal goal because of health problems but it is my goal. Sure it was great to be a upper rank in lower rank classes, but I don't take those to show off, I do them to help me make my techniques better and also to work out and make my body better.
As far as I can relate to Black Belt Attitude, I have only just begun to know myself and realize the limitations are within me. The colored belts are like Andrew Green and Ladyhawke says, tools and goals. Just like a graph. Most students when they get to Blackbelt just then realize that those lower belts were just the beginning, not the end.

[Greyghost]

"Most students when they get to Blackbelt just then realize that those lower belts were just the beginning, not the end."

Nicely said.

Besides ...my belt is better than anyones elses for 2 reasons....

1. I earned it..it therefore has huge meaning for me...but maybe not for anyone else.

2. it has sequins on it !!! (not really)

ta.

[michael]

Originally posted by darlph
Sure you can go out and buy a belt and make up a "history" but can you walk the talk? Going to 2nd Dan for me is a personal goal because of health problems but it is my goal. Sure it was great to be a upper rank in lower rank classes, but I don't take those to show off, I do them to help me make my techniques better and also to work out and make my body better.
As far as I can relate to Black Belt Attitude, I have only just begun to know myself and realize the limitations are within me. The colored belts are like Andrew Green and Ladyhawke says, tools and goals. Just like a graph. Most students when they get to Blackbelt just then realize that those lower belts were just the beginning, not the end.

hi i was reading about what belts mean, not much from what i have seen i meet teachers with 2 black belt who said they now wing chun and so on, and i catch them out but still tell me they are right! all it seems to be now is money, if you payed enough theres your belt! i have now belts my self but now more than most i meeet

[WhiteWizard]

i haven't been in MA long but i think the colour of the belt isn't really important its more important that you earn it in the first place.

[Thomas]

I look at belt colors (and we use stripes at the TKD school as well) sort of like book marks. They mark how far the student has attained along the essential testing curriculum... i.e. what forms they've learned, what techniques they should be training in sparring and self defence and such. They also mark how long a student has been training in a general way. As a sometimes instructor, it gives me a very quick idea of what I should be working on when I teach a class and how to divide students up, Of course, if I know the students, I can give supplemental instruction in other skills, if necessary, according to their desires and needs.

Comparing the belt colors in my school to other schools doesn't always work very well... again, other schools may use different colors, time requirements and so on.

[Jamo]

One can ponder that different styles have different belt color progressions due to political reasons..."We of the X-ryu style don't want to be confused with the Y & Z-ryu styles (for obvious reasons...mostly, because we're better!)"

Unfortunately, everyone has the ability (or misfortune) of buying the belt from a store or earning it from a McDojo Belt Factory. Hopefully, none of us are victims or instigators of either of these ways.

One thing is for certain...reaching your black belt (or whatever the equivalent is in other styles) is something special, if it is a journey filled with your own blood, sweat and tears. This is the essence of Bushido. Those that reach this level, however, will realize that you have not mastered anything...you are only at the beginning of true understanding of the techniques and ideals that you have been exposed to.

Jamo

[Guitarboy1212]

Personally, I don't beleive in a belt system. The reason why? well, when martial arts was first created, none of them had a belt system. Sure, people joined the martial arts, but not many stayed. Only the extremely dedicated stayed. The schools weren't rakin' in enough money to keep them going, so they created a belt system. They hoped by doing this, it would make the students feel like they accomplished something when they got a new belt, and would stay. It worked, and the schools were able to stay open. For the martial arts that i take though, i can't really remember the lower belt order. But i know that at the end it is red, recommended black (half red half black), 1st degree black, and so on.

[Adam]

Are there any systems where black ISN'T the highest grade of belt?

[Freeform]

Judo, its red and white after 6th dan I think (could be seventh), although most wear and actual black belt.

Hey, I ain't telling them off!

[grandmaster mat]

all schools and arts are different, in my school it goes white, yellow tag, yellow belt ,green tag, green belt, blue tag, blue belt, red tag, red belt, black tag, black belt, but in another school it will be different

[KickChick]

Originally posted by Phi Nguyen
Ah, I get it. The colors represent something, but they're not all the same. Correct?

Generally, most systems begin at White belt, you move to Gold/Yellow, then Orange, then Green, then Purple, Blue then Brown, Red then Black. Some systems may not use a certain color but will add a degree (length of additional time training at the color rank)
For example, there may be 2 "degrees" or levels of Blue belt and 3 degrees of brown belt. (as our school does)
Many Karate systems equate the colors by Kyu.
White belt is 9th or 0 Kyu. Yellow belt is 8th Kyu, Orange is 7th Kyu, Green is 6th Kyu, Purple is 5th and 4th Kyu, Brown is 3rd, 2nd and 1st Kyu. Black belt becomes what is known as Dan (pronouced "Don") and begins with 1st Dan, or degree, and moves upward to 9th Dan.

Whatever everyone's views or opinions are on belt ranks .... they are necessary for the instructor and maybe more so for the student. But anything over and above the use of say 6 ranks (including 2 ranks each having 2 degrees before black) and then Black (1-9 dans), is used for nothing more than generating extra income from the students, or as a means keep students who would otherwise have dropped out early on.

Guitarboy is correct in saying that early on martial arts did not have a belt sytem ... but they did wear belts.

"Classes were usually small enough that everyone knew who the instructor was...thus the instructor dressed no differently than his students. Everyone wore belts that were colored white, for the express purpose of keeping their gi-tops or doboks from flying open."
"However, even though they never had belt tests, the color of their belts did change. As the student began to work hard, his sweat would pour out, and stain his belt from white to a dim-yellow. As time passed, the sweat stains were joined by grass stains attained from rolling on the ground, and thus the belt would appear to have a greenish-tint to it. As the student continued to acquire grass stains, he would also continue to sweat, forcing a color change of green and yellow at the same time, thus the belt would appear to be blue. Dirt would also begin to collect on the belt, as student progressed, sometimes creating the illusion of brown. As the student advanced, and became better and better, his instructors and opponents would push him harder, and frequently injure him to the point of bleeding, which would cause the belt to show qualities of a dark red.

Ultimately, when the belt was stained to the point that no color change would occur, it became a dark-gray or black. This change would take years to occur, and signified the wearer as an advanced practicioner. But this was not the last change to take place. Eventually, after many years, the material on the belt itself began to wear away, and it would slowly change from black, BACK to white. A person whose belt had endured this change, was revered as a master, and respected by warrior and commoner alike."
Belt and Color Meanings (http://www.byov.com/Aaron/ronin/colors.html)

[Sonshu]

Its a good rule of thumb and then brown is always a high one or there abouts!

SONSHU

[kobudo_tob]

Many Karate systems equate the colors by Kyu.
White belt is 9th or 0 Kyu. Yellow belt is 8th Kyu, Orange is 7th Kyu, Green is 6th Kyu, Purple is 5th and 4th Kyu, Brown is 3rd, 2nd and 1st Kyu. Black belt becomes what is known as Dan (pronouced "Don") and begins with 1st Dan, or degree, and moves upward to 9th Dan.

Although this is the same as my previous karate schools system, not ALL karate schools follow this (I'm not sure whether you implied this, but it sure sounded like you did :D)

Srangely enough, my kobudo association has recently changed the belt colours:

Novice - white
10th Kyu - White/black
9th Kyu - white/yellow
8th Kyu - yellow
7th Kyu - orange
6th Kyu - green
5th Kyu - blue
4th Kyu - red
3rd Kyu - purple
2nd Kyu - brown
1st Kyu - brown/black
Shodan - black

TADA

[KickChick]

Originally posted by kobudo_tob
Although this is the same as my previous karate schools system, not ALL karate schools follow this (I'm not sure whether you implied this, but it sure sounded like you did :D)

yet another discrepancy... No, I didn't mean to imply at all, in fact until I became involved with posting in these forums, I was really unaware of "kyu"'s and shodan/nidan etc.. etc... as I am only familiar with the Korean ranking system. I had to find out on my own when someone posted that they were 9th kyu that they were actually a white belt and not a 9th "dan" (bb) as I then assumed.
Still learning......:)

[grandmaster mat]

i duno if someone has already said this but in tae kwon do, every belt has a meaning, but i forgot the meanings for them i can early remember yellow belt i think its "yellow signifies earth, from which the plant sprouts and grows routes as tae kwon do foundations are being layed" (give or take a few words)

[KickChick]

If you click on the link above in my post and scroll down ... it explains the meanings of the belt colors

"Sunlight pours down from the heavens, and gives the plant the life and energy that it needs to grow. Such is the yellow belt who takes life from the knowledge of his/her instructors"

[JediMasterChris]

There are no belts in kendo....I feel left out.....we had patches at my old school but not anymore...

[Greg-VT]

I'd rather not have belts. I think they are a distraction.

[shadow joe]

Originally posted by Phi Nguyen
What? What's the use of the belt rank if they're all different? You're right, it's very confusing.


exactly.




psst! - there are no belts at the school I train at - shhh

[kobudo_tob]

Good KickChick - didn't want to fall out with one of my 'allies'. United against a common enemy ;)

[KickChick]

LOL :D ...
:woo: ---->enemy

One good thing about those belts .... its always handy!!http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/contrib/anym/hanged.gif

[KickChick]

.... also here's another "meaning" for wearing a belt


The belt "encircles" its wearer. The "circle" is a universal symbol of wholeness and harmony, and symbolizes the totality of the universe. The circularity of the belt reinforces the circular cycle of training; the fact that, after years of training, one realizes that the true essence of the martial art existed at the beginning.

As a practical matter, the belt holds the uniform closed, but its real significance is far greater than merely being a clasp or even a signifier of rank.

The belt has symbolic meanings, both in eastern philosophy and in its color.


In Korea, the ordinary belt is addressed as "horitti" or "yodae" (meaning waist belt). The belt used in TKD is called "tti." The main purpose of the belt is to document a student’s progression through Tae kwon do. Just as the "The sapling is hidden amongst the taller oak trees and must fight its way upward," students must struggle to achieve TKD proficiency.

The belt system rewards them for their struggle and perseverance and encourages them to develop their skills, discipline, and self-control so they may progress to even higher belt levels. Belt color denotes the proficiency level of the wearer and it is the outward expression of the wearer’s inner level of confidence and wisdom.

Belts also as mentioned earlier, do help an instructor properly manage a training class. From the front of a class, an instructor may quickly evaluate the training levels of the entire class using the belts the students are wearing.

[Guitarboy1212]

There are no belts in kendo....I feel left out.....we had patches at my old school but not anymore...

You should feel proud that there is no belt system in the martial arts you practice. it is the original way. At least it shows that your going to a school that isn't only thinking about rakin' in the dough

[sn0w8lade]

I practise Choy Lee Fut and I'm a black sash!!!!!!!!!

But then again everyone is a black sash as we don't use anyother colour or have gradings.

I like this more traditional approach.

I feel that the use of gradings and the presenting of belts is more of a money spinner.

I do recognize that students may be spurred on by attaining a higher belt or work hard towards a grading but to me this shouldn't be so.

If ur in MAs then u work hard becauseu u want to, u want to improve urself and ur skills. U don't do it for a bit of matrerial u tie round ur waist.

Also, the ranking system although it allows u to see wot level an individual is at tends to segregate students into little groups of beginners, intermadiate, seniors etc. (or @ least it did in clubs i trained at in the past)

This ranking system can make a student feel quite alienated (Esp a beginner) seeing all these different groupings.

I believe that a MA school should be like a family, all brothers and sisters together everyone consantly learning and evolving. U can identify beginners, intermediates and seniors without the use of coloured belts. Everyone havin the same colour or not @ all gives the beginners a little boost and keeps seniors grounded.


Well that's jus my opinion folks :D

[sn0w8lade]

Ha Ha Ha didn't realised i'd typed so much.

Sorry bout that guys an gals

[Andy Murray]

It's a bit like trying to see the woods for the trees isn't it?

You can get so hooked on working your way into the next peer group, that it's a real eye opener when you realise you've gone as far as you could go.

Yet it's only when you have done this, that you can be retrospective about it?

[JediMasterChris]

You should feel proud that there is no belt system in the martial arts you practice. it is the original way. At least it shows that your going to a school that isn't only thinking about rakin' in the dough


Yeah that's true.

[YODA]

Originally posted by Andy Murray


Yet it's only when you have done this, that you can be retrospective about it?


Very true Andy - only by having travelled is it possible to return home :D

[Aegis]

Originally posted by KickChick
"Classes were usually small enough that everyone knew who the instructor was...thus the instructor dressed no differently than his students. Everyone wore belts that were colored white, for the express purpose of keeping their gi-tops or doboks from flying open."

"However, even though they never had belt tests, the color of their belts did change. As the student began to work hard, his sweat would pour out, and stain his belt from white to a dim-yellow. As time passed, the sweat stains were joined by grass stains attained from rolling on the ground, and thus the belt would appear to have a greenish-tint to it. As the student continued to acquire grass stains, he would also continue to sweat, forcing a color change of green and yellow at the same time, thus the belt would appear to be blue. Dirt would also begin to collect on the belt, as student progressed, sometimes creating the illusion of brown. As the student advanced, and became better and better, his instructors and opponents would push him harder, and frequently injure him to the point of bleeding, which would cause the belt to show qualities of a dark red.

Ultimately, when the belt was stained to the point that no color change would occur, it became a dark-gray or black. This change would take years to occur, and signified the wearer as an advanced practicioner. But this was not the last change to take place. Eventually, after many years, the material on the belt itself began to wear away, and it would slowly change from black, BACK to white. A person whose belt had endured this change, was revered as a master, and respected by warrior and commoner alike."
Belt and Color Meanings (http://www.byov.com/Aaron/ronin/colors.html)


This is a great story, and is in fact one of the most commonly heard stories in martial; arts, but it's made up. There are a few places out there that still teach the story as fact, but it has been debunked by several people. Try here (http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=913&) for a detailed discussion.