Any merrit in using throws as a defence?

[Bigfoot]

Do you throw as a defence from punches? Either with a training partner or an aggressor?

If you do throw (your partner) is it from a realistic attack or from a lobbed punch that just hanges there waiting to be grabbed?

By throw I mean a hip or shoulder throw, where the attacker has completely left the ground. By a realistic attack I mean a barrage of random punches intended to make contact with your head.

If you do, what technique(s) do you use? How succesful have they been for you? If you use a throw, do you use any counter-techniques to follow them up or just let your attacker kiss the ground.

[YODA]

I prefer wrestling type takedowns to throws but have had success with a few Judo type throws - in particular harai-goshi and soto-makikomi.

The harai usually ends with my landing heavily on his ribgace, into kesa gatame with an immediate transition to kata gatame and Zzzzzz.......

The Soto usually ends up with my landing haevily with my knee in his chest with a direct transition into a barrage of face punches and sometimes juji-gatame on his far arm.

[Jim]

What else are throws for?

Some favourites (not all) are Uchi Maki Komi followed up with a knee into the rib cage and a compressed lung choke, Osoto Gari with either a kesa gatame (as described by Yoda) or knee to neck strangulation, and O-Goshi as a pre-emptive to a 'serious' punch (ie. Uke has only thrown a few light punches to test your defences).

The other part of your question had to do with realism of attack, and that's just silly... Why else would you be training.

[Darzeka]

I would rather use a hip throw style thing from real close - say they grab your collar with one hand and try to smack your face in with the other.
Elbow and grappling hip throws work real well from here - instead of your arm circling the waist it tucks in between you two and the elbow either goes into there punching armpit (elbow throw) or the other side either next to the neck or armpit (grappling hip) the elbow is an awesome stun strike in the grappling hip version.

Neck squeeze throws are good too. Reverse head lock then hip throw, pulled around by the neck can be quite lethal.

Arm raise throws could be good too. As they throw their barage of punches reverse block (your arm moves from outside to in, knuckles up using the sharp forearm blade - very painful block).
Also dodge forward and outside (so you can see thier back).
As you block grab the gi sleeve or wrist if they have no sleeves (be careful with the wrist grab as you can twist the arm and cause damage).
Now it gets tricky. For this to work fluidly you need to step infront of them into horse stance whilst pulling them forward. Your arm bends in ahead of you with your hand next to your jaw and the forearm horizontal.
Then you can either grab thier other hand with your other hand (more control less power) or their one hand with both of yours (more power less control), practise both. And pull forward, they should come straight over you with a good horse stance and proper pull. If you hold both hands they can't breakfall well and on hard surfaces this will result in lots of pain.

For this to work in a live situation it needs to flow from the block to the horse stance and pull so you don't give them a chance to counter but is a real good throw.

I would rather use a momentum throw or sweep style throw from punches or kicks and these body throws from a grab/grapple situation. Its much easier to just dodge, grab then around the neck or by the shoulder and pull them over backwards.

[Bigfoot]

Jim

The reason I ask about realisim, is that over the years I have seen and trained with many people that have trained hard and have honestly thought that they were training realisticly, but the fact of the matter is, that more times than not, the attacks that are comming are prearranged attacks that my Grandmother could defend herself against (even without training).

I have used many throws in random training, but I am seldomly attacked with a barrage of attacks (perhaps my students and peers are intimidated by me).

To answer my own question: I like to use a Harai or Hane Gashi or a Tai-o-Toshi. I have found that from single attacks they all work very well. Especially because of the use of the leg in the throws. I have also found that I am particularly fond of using Koshi Guruma or an Eri Seo-nagi if I am confronted by a battery of attacks and I go in on my opponent.

As far as finnishing the counter, I often lock, punch or kick in accordance with the situation, however, I rarely ever counter-attack in mass-attack situations. I normally try to use my attacker as a shield or an obsticle in sted.

[Jim]

Yeah, I knew what you meant but the point was everyone thinks that they're doing realistic training anyway. It's called 'Dojo syndrome' and is common in small classes and large and it can happen to you!

The only way to guard against it is to be aware of what you and yours are doing and don't be afraid to 'accidently' miss one every now and then to ensure that people are really trying to beat all nine colours of poo outta you.

[Bigfoot]

I like your point, Jim.

If I had heard your voice instead of read your comment I would have most likely understood your sarcasm.

It is just like ALL clubs/schools are the best. "No one is better than us." In most cases it is a matter of a misguided instructor. The thing is... my school is the best! HaHa:-) (Maybe not, but we're not far off)

I know it is a little off topic, but do you others out there in the world have the same problem as we do? We experience the we are the best, ergo, you are worse than we are syndrome. Almost every school in Denmark does it. (I will add that I really try hard to stay out of the mud-throwing.) I try to work with the other schools to increase the image of MA in Denmark (the general population sees MA as a place where bullies learn to be better bullies) but I meet resistance every time.

To keep the thread on topic... Many times the debate about who is better is caused by one person/group saying that their technique is better than an others. Many have good technique too, I would just like to point out that those who yell the loudest are normally also the ones with the worst technique. Especially regarding throws. The big guys can do it because of their size, but what about the little guy? The throwing techniques taught by most schools in Denmark are designed for the strong.

How do you guys throw? Do you have students (girls/women/small men) that weigh 55-60 kg that are throwing men that top the scales at 100 kgs? Right now I'm talking about basic throws (standing across from one another to train the throw) with a complacent partner that doesn't fight you. I have been many places where they just cannot do it because the throw is based apon strength or movement of your opponent (ie. the attacker runs at you and you side-step while putting your foot in front of him to trip him).

[Jim]

If you could have heard my voice I'd be worried!

I'm pretty sure you'll find everyone has the same problem - it's cultural and, particularly which it comes to combat, people get a bit 'warm under the collar' thinking that someone walking around doing a MA class or (worse) running a MA class with the insinuation that they can beat them up anytime they want.

I think you'll find that most (can't say all 'cos don't know them all) people here on MAP have good technique for throwing - those who do throwing MA's. I have some small students who are very well able to throw resisting bigger students. It comes down to training for proper technique over strength. Physics, economy of movement, etc. Unfortunately I have yet to have a successful female technician, the closest we had stayed with us for 6 years then left to pursue other things (that and I married her).

[Freeform]

I've had success with throws in fights but mostly not what from you would call a barrage. Nornally its from the 'See it winding up 3 miles away, have a cup of tea and then counter it' style punches, that most guys think is a proper hook. This is because they've really overcommitted and ruined their own balance.

From a 'barrage' of weaker punches it s possible to throw them but means your going to have to break their balance, my preferable throws for this Uchi-mata, Ashi -baria and there's always a straight armbar takedown.

Colin

[Jim]

From a 'barrage' of weaker punches it s possible to throw them but means your going to have to break their balance
Try 'jamming' their flurry of punches while using Ko Uchi Gari on their front leg.

[Sonshu]

They need a bit of setting up though.

You need to be in a grapple situation and if you can pin the person against a wall they have less options of moving away and lowering there centre.

Makes em easier to throw.

SONSHU

They work though!!

[johnson]

my sensei says that you should only use the throw to finish an opponent. Ideally your block and strike(s) should seriously weaken disorient him: then hes ready for the throw if you have that luxury.
regards

[pgm316]

If you've weakened someone with strikes you could be loosing that advantage moving into a grappling range. I've never liked the turning my back into someone! Your open for all sorts of strikes or grappling moves...

Can be very effective but like Yoda said, I prefer the wrestling takedowns!

[Sonshu]

Still they are fairly easy to do and I am confident in them. The wrestling type take downs often end up in you being on the floor. Or at least this is my view. I prefer the Jujitsu type throws as I remain in the driving seat.

Also I am strong enough to throw people bigger than me with relative ease. When I said needed setting up then I was refering to strikes.

They are finishers as any move where the person is left bent over there centre of balance, on tip toes or the floor is an excellent control situation for you. Throws also take a lot out of you as 99% of the population cant break fall. Also a few martial arts dont cover it from what I have seen.

SONSHU

[pgm316]

Good points Sonshu, especcially if you don't want to use many strikes to end it.

[Freeform]

Throws have their place, who's to say that you can determine the range and positioning in a real fight? Use what you've got!

Col

[Sonshu]

However if you have to think about doing one mid flow then you have missed your opportunity I guess.

As the position will be lost.

:)

SONSHU

[Jim]

my sensei says that you should only use the throw to finish an opponent
My sensei always used to say that the throw is the progression, the bridge and to end you should strike, choke or immobilise. Difference of opinion I guess.

However if you have to think about doing one mid flow then you have missed your opportunity I guess
Can't say I rationally 'think' during combat. The idea is to train your instincts to react so that you don't conciously have to. Point of reference is where you try to recall later what actually happened in the combat situation. Usually all I can rationally remember is what happened just before the situation.

[Sonshu]

But to people who are new or in-experience to throws the footwork requires more consious thought than for us old timers!

Hence missing your window.

SONSHU

[Sambo Master]

i also like wrestling throws and even sambo throws (same thing)

they do work in practice and they should work in the street. but dont do big throws unless you really have the advantage.

[SoKKlab]

Could you do me a favour please and refer to Throws in English as well as Japanese? I know most of the throws that you talking about, but, my Japanese is nominal. It would be really good to know which throws were being refered to, particularly as I am a Ju Jitsu newbie at present and don't know my Ah So from my Uggi ma wotsit... Thanks

[Jim]

Ah So from my Uggi ma wotsit!!! Well, you are and the horse you rode in on, so there :(

[SoKKlab]

Very constructive Jim and in English as well!

[Sambo Master]

Whats all this about

it doeasnt matter what language its in it is the same move
i suggest you both learn meaning from both languages

[SoKKlab]

I am trying to learn the Japanese for the Throws, honest. I know what most of the Throws are in English.

I'm not saying that I want all the throws written in English only, or Welsh, Slovenian or Yoruba etc.

I'm a bit shaky on the difference between O-Goshi and O-Garuma, or O-Soto-Gake and O-Soto-Gari, as way of an example. I've just started Ju Jitsu, you see. Or rather a Legitimate Japanese style of Ju Jitsu.

So, when someone says a Japanese term for a throw, I might think 'Huh?', but if they then said what it was in English, I'd know what they were talking about....

Quite simple really.

[Jim]

Constructive? What ever happened to the good old British sence of humour? If you REALLY want a description/translation of the name of throws in Japanese and English go to: www.agjs.com look under the [Techniques] tab.

Hope this helps :)

[SoKKlab]

Thanks Jim,
For the URL. I'm Welsh, the term British doesn't mean much to me, but hey I know that you were joshing with me and vice versa, I hope. Irony's a difficult thing via email...

[Jim]

But it says in your stats that you're in London :confused:

A bit like others calling me a pom, I'm three generations Aussie.

BTW, did the link help?

[SoKKlab]

Doesn't matter where I live Jim, it's just where I live.
This is not the place to go on about ethnic identity, culture etc...

Just don't call me English....

I'm Welsh that's my Ethnic identity see (Gymraeg), like being Chinese, wherever you go you'll still be Chinese.

I currently live in London, but I might be in Berlin or San Francisco or Oz (New South Wales?)....

Anyway, I'm practising my Japanese now and my Ju Jitsu....

[Jim]

Ummm, okay... So, did the link help then?

[SoKKlab]

Yes it did thanks Jim,
I can now relate the Japanese terms to the throws as I know them in English. Thanks.

[Jim]

So, we're friends again then?

[JediMasterChris]

I prefer the harai-goshi,and the Yoko-Gake, but my favourite is the O Uchi-Gari, I have used this TONS of time on my brothers, it is particularly effective against people bigger than you, and it is easy, it is especially useful in a streetfight to get somebody to the ground easily. It is a good way for tiny people to make very large people come down, the larger the better.

[SoKKlab]

Friends? Again?

When were we not?....

[SoKKlab]

I had to look in my Ju Jitsu directory for O-Uchi gari. I only know this throw from a Muay Thai POV, obviously without the Gi Gripping, but i've used versions of it during sparring, either from the Clinch or even as a cheeky 'try your luck' move.

I've not done it in Ju Jitsu yet, as I've only been doing that for a little while. I don't know if this link is any use to anyone reading this, but it has some good diagrams of throws. I find it useful when I don't know either the English or the Japanese term. So I can compare and contrast...

http://members.tripod.com/ju_jutsu_master/id20.htm

[JediMasterChris]

www.judoinfo.com/techdraw.htm it is like the site you mentioned but I like it a little more.

I do the O-Uchi Gari a little differently, if the person is alot bigger than you it is pretty cool to headbutt them in the stomach while pushing them from their face, they go down faster and it knocks the air out of them/breaks ribs, the normal way you just push them with your hands on their chest and it takes them down without hurting them too much. Also in streetfights people tend to run at you and charge, in this case I really like using the Tomoenage (not sure of the spelling) I think this is a Judo move but I learned it in Tai Chi. If you are flexible/acrobatic enough you can end up rolling backwards onto your opponent and delivering a few quick striked simultaneously with a knee to the groin and this looks very cool.

[SoKKlab]

Hey Chris,
Another good version is to strike a nice clean elbow into their face, either Sok Ti (Downward Circular Elbow) or Sok Tad (Hooking Elbow) and simultaneously reap the leg. Ie Left Elbow, right leg or vice versa, good to do from the Clinch or from short range without the grab-so you have the circular continuum.

I like your headbutt version though-it's like Burmese Boxing....
I'll have to try it out, in a peaceful sort of way, of course.

[JediMasterChris]

lol thanks, I'll have to try the Sok Ti and Sok Tad, I've never heard of them.

[SoKKlab]

They're just Elbow strikes Chris,
I only use the Thai because I'm a smart arse. No I mean, you might hear them described in different ways in English and it all gets confusing.

Sok Ti (Ti=Hit) is the Elbow strike that circles up and over, like a Stroke when swimming the Front Crawl. Down through the guard.

Sok Tad (Tad=Cut) is the Elbow that you throw like a hook and hit with the point horizontally and then the Forearm follows through.

I'm sure that you'll get to Basic elbow strikes in your Muay Thai soon.

[johnson]

Talking about o uchi gary, we call them cross hock and inside hock after the hock shape of a horse. We use a sharp cross block, bounce block off the incoming push/ grab/ point/ gesture/strike to knife hand across opponent's left side of the neck. With the edge of the hand still in contact with the neck bring the elbow around so that it smashes under the jaw hinge on their right side. Your right arm should now form a v shape around their neck - knife edge on one side and elbow on the other. Shuffle in a horse stance and knee groin with right knee simultaneously lever head hack with right arm and lift and hock their leg in o uchi gari. As the fall push their neck down with your right hand to give them no chance of recovering balance.

I have found that this is a very fast technique once you get the knack; it works when the entry isnt quite clean and it merges well into other things when things dont work out as planned. Actually my sensei does this at blinding speed - if I can eventually get to be near that level I be delighted...........

On another matter I am quite intyerested in the origins of jj in Britain particularly the liverpool area - any links??

[SoKKlab]

Nice Techniques Johnson,
Where do you study in London? I'm interested in training at a few different places. (I sent you a private asking same thing, sorry for repetition)...

[YODA]

Originally posted by johnson
On another matter I am quite intyerested in the origins of jj in Britain particularly the liverpool area - any links??


*Quick rummage through the Yodarchives......

Lowlands JJ Liverpool (http://www.jiu-jitsu.freeserve.co.uk/)

Lots of info there on the "old school" - living just 20min away from these guys I've met and trained with a few of them over the years.

If you want info on the history of JJ in the UK in general I can put you in touch with my good friend Dave Turton - he's a "been there done that" kinda guy :D

[YODA]

Back to the original topic:

"Guys I know personally" have used (In REAL fights) ....

Harai-Goshi .... 3 occurances - ended the fight all 3 times

Chest to back suplex - ended the fight (broke the guys back)

Ura nage - gained mounted and rained down punches, ending the fight

Puter Kepala (From silat) - guys head happened across a knee on the way down - ending the fight

----- can we see a pattern here? :D

[johnson]

thanks, fantastic site!!

[JediMasterChris]

Yep, we went through Sok Ti and Sok Tad in MT but they didn't call them by that, I don't think he only uses those names with the higher class.

[SoKKlab]

Great Chris,
Do you see how you can integrate them easily with Throws, Reaps and sweeps?

Don't worry about the Thai spelling, elbow is elbow. It just gets confusing because different camps call them different things in English, from each other.
Many's a time when I've been confused as to what they were going on about. Ie Just what do they mean by Straight Elbow?

We were doing similiar techniques in Ju Jitsu last night and I was laughing because I couldn't remember the Japanese terms for them and I'd promised a friend that i'd be able to refer to the elbow strikes in Japanese by that class. I lost the bet...

I also forgot all the Japanese for the throws we were doing and started using the Korean, from my Hapkido training instead. It was like the United Nations in there and hot too...
Good Luck with the Training.

[JediMasterChris]

Oops, sorry, I didn't reply till now.

Yeah I see what kind of throws they could be integrated with, what are some of the most useful to integrade elbow strikes with?

[SoKKlab]

Reaps particularly, as a smooth part of the movement.

Say O-soto Gari you are taking their balance backwards anyway, hopefully with a smooth movement via correct positioning, as opposed to a strength move, so why not just slam your elbow into their face to help them on the way over-as part of the initial step off the centreline and parry-counterstrike. Works for me ;)

Otherwise it's pretty easy to integrate elbow strikes into any grappling (See MT Clinchwork for ideas to try out).

Anybody got any other tips and tricks-my brain's not in gear today?

[Hakko-Ryu]

a good throw that works for me is the "Uki waza" ...especially if a person is lunging at you with a roundhouse/hook punch (which most ppl tend to do on the streets). you move and turn with the flow of energy from the punch and shoot your leg/legs out towards attackers knees, grab attackers head, neck etc. and DROP all your body weight as you go down...your assailant will go head first guaranteed and all this can be done in seconds time. Some guy from our dojo did this in a college gym, he headplanted the guy into some lockers and knocked him out cold. Even in the dojo practicing this move can be a little dangerous because your uke's head tends to jerk towards the ground at high speed and a graze here and there on top of the head from falling too late is not uncommon.