Tradition Or Not Tradition!?!

[Chojin]

I know this has probably been done before but i couldnt find anything regarding it in past post! Just curious too find out how people feel on tradition within Martial Arts! Thanks in advance!

Prefer Tradition!?! Why!?!

Or

Tradition outdated and waste of time!?! Why!?!

Or

Not bothered!?!

[YODA]

I have nothing against tradition as long as it is for a better reason than BECAUSE it is tradition :D

[munkiejunkie]

I prefer tradition, because my life is based on tradition. I am the first son of the third son of the third son, all of whom (me included) are named david. I dont know, tradition just feels right for me

[JohnnyX]

I have nothing against tradition as long as it is for a better reason than BECAUSE it is tradition :D

In that case, most traditions just went out of the window. :D

[choconutjoe]

I have nothing against tradition as long as it is for a better reason than BECAUSE it is tradition :D Definatly, reminds me of a zen story:

"When the spiritual teacher and his disciples began their evening meditation, the cat who lived in the monastery made such noise that it distracted them. So the teacher ordered that the cat be tied up during the evening practice. Years later, when the teacher died, the cat continued to be tied up during the meditation session. And when the cat eventually died, another cat was brought to the monastery and tied up. Centuries later, learned descendants of the spiritual teacher wrote scholarly treatises about the religious significance of tying up a cat for meditation practice."

I'm sure all traditions are born out of a necessity, but if that necessity is no longer aparent then there is no need for the tradition.

[redsandpalm]

I have nothing against tradition as long as it is for a better reason than BECAUSE it is tradition :DAgreed. Why do artists (generally) study ancient, old and contemporary art - because they can draw influence from it, learn from the experiences of others etc., but not neccessarily to copy it exactly and never grow themselves.. just to be aware of what has gone before.
You could consider tradition in MAs the same way. There probably is a reason for 'x' tradition, and it mightened be immediately apparent, but you should look at it and study it, question it, and then decide if it's worth keeping or not. Definitely question things constantly, tradition for its own sake in a fighting art is defunct.

[Kwajman]

I prefer traditional methods because of the ability of drawing from the historical teachers of my art. Being able to read books about how the sport developed and why certain methods and movements came about helps me to understand tae kwon do and its history.

[YODA]

Tradition has a place - but I'd hope those that have survived have done so on merit and not out of blind allegiance.

However - I see a lot of martial artists still "tying up cats" :Angel:

"Using all ways - Bound by none" - as Spinning Bruce once said.

[Mrs Owt]

I suppose I prefer some tradition in my MA. I don't inherently see it as a bad thing to have tradition. Very often they stem from a functional purpose and serve to keep classes organised and easier to manage. For example look at the traditional "bow in" of many TMA's. It is nice to get the people (kids especially) together, quiet, focused and then start the class. I have been in classes where the participants just wander onto the mat and some people are just incapable of stopping talking and fooling around if it isn't clear that something else should be going on.

You can quibble about bowing all you want and it's cultural irrelevance to most of us, but I think that is just a deliberate attempt at nit-picking because really a bow only takes a nano second and doesn't detract AT ALL from the practice of martial arts.

Seriously, if your biggest complaint about MA is that they require a quick bow or a certain type of uniform, you have missed the point completely. The MA is not about the outward trappings but about the training. If you get too caught up in the extraneous stuff you lose focus on the important stuff. Too often I think people find fault with a MA because they want to leave not because there is actually anything wrong with what people are doing there.

Then again, maybe I have just been extremely lucky in my current TMA dojo's. The traditions are not overwhelming, the belt system is used wisely and respect is earned by higher ranks, not demanded or expected. I suppose in a poorly run dojo or with an instructor who doesn't know how to manage people these "traditions" may interfere with training because the proper perspective is not placed on relatively minor trappings of MA and they are weighted ridiculously heavily. Tradition doesn't automatically mean obsequious and demeaning behaviour.

[Pacificshore]

I suppose I prefer some tradition in my MA. I don't inherently see it as a bad thing to have tradition. Very often they stem from a functional purpose and serve to keep classes organised and easier to manage. For example look at the traditional "bow in" of many TMA's. It is nice to get the people (kids especially) together, quiet, focused and then start the class. I have been in classes where the participants just wander onto the mat and some people are just incapable of stopping talking and fooling around if it isn't clear that something else should be going on.

You can quibble about bowing all you want and it's cultural irrelevance to most of us, but I think that is just a deliberate attempt at nit-picking because really a bow only takes a nano second and doesn't detract AT ALL from the practice of martial arts.

Seriously, if your biggest complaint about MA is that they require a quick bow or a certain type of uniform, you have missed the point completely. The MA is not about the outward trappings but about the training. If you get too caught up in the extraneous stuff you lose focus on the important stuff. Too often I think people find fault with a MA because they want to leave not because there is actually anything wrong with what people are doing there.

Then again, maybe I have just been extremely lucky in my current TMA dojo's. The traditions are not overwhelming, the belt system is used wisely and respect is earned by higher ranks, not demanded or expected. I suppose in a poorly run dojo or with an instructor who doesn't know how to manage people these "traditions" may interfere with training because the proper perspective is not placed on relatively minor trappings of MA and they are weighted ridiculously heavily. Tradition doesn't automatically mean obsequious and demeaning behaviour.
Well said Mrs. Owt :D

[MartialArtsSnob]

I my school we have a tradition of skipping Tai Chi class twice a year for a Chinese dinner. :D We also have a tradition that we call the "Fantasy black belt file" Anyone who comes through the door with a black belt from somewhere else, we make them fill out a lengthy questionare. Once in a while we go through them and laugh about the really, really weird ones. :Alien:

Do these count? :confused:

[tommy]

In that case, most traditions just went out of the window. :D

hahahahaha!

[YODA]

In that case, most traditions just went out of the window. :D Bingo! :Angel:

[Infrazael]

I love my school. Sure, we have a nice lineage. We learn forms. We learn weapons. However, we spend just as much time on conditioning, applications, full-contact sparring, streetfighting techniques and effective ways of fighting.

So, a good mixture of traditional and new.

[wayofthedragon]

Tradition is good, I am for it....however, I don't think a art should be consumed with just tradition. They should be able to move outside of it. But never forget it.....we've all heard the saying "never forget where you came from" That's how I see it, however that doesn't mean you have to or should stay there either. Martial arts should keep growing into something better (evolving) yet never forgetting where it came from (tradition)

[iamraisen]

i have voted against it as i do an MA to learn to fight. the only tradition that is involved in our classes is bowing at the start, and then again at the end as i sign of respect and thanks to the teacher. however i show respect to my teacher this way, not bcause it traditional, but because i respect him as a person and i know he appreciates it done this way having originally trained in thailand.

i find most other traditions either trivial (speaking a foriegn language when there is a word for it in english) or conflicting with my own beliefs. too many people see the traditional side of MA as a way to becoming someone else (ie japanese if they do karate).

[Athleng Nordic]

Traditions build the base, but if you can think for yourself thus break from tradition you build beyond the base. My nickle anyway.

[iamraisen]

Traditions build the base, but if you can think for yourself thus break from tradition you build beyond the base. My nickle anyway.

very true. its obvious that without the tradition most Ma's would not survive. however if that reason is not relevant to you then why make it so?

[wayofthedragon]

You know whats funny. In the begining when martial arts where first born originally, there were no tradition, because they were just being born. Traditions formed over years and years. So then If martial arts can be born out of nothing except for the will of men to use what ever means neccessary in war, self-deffense or what ever.....Then where does tradition come in at except for to keep the past alive and remember where it all came from?

[tommy]

i have voted against it as i do an MA to learn to fight. the only tradition that is involved in our classes is bowing at the start, and then again at the end as i sign of respect and thanks to the teacher. however i show respect to my teacher this way, not bcause it traditional, but because i respect him as a person and i know he appreciates it done this way having originally trained in thailand.

i find most other traditions either trivial (speaking a foriegn language when there is a word for it in english) or conflicting with my own beliefs. too many people see the traditional side of MA as a way to becoming someone else (ie japanese if they do karate).

What about honoring the ART of which you partake...if it is a TMA?

[samuri-man]

I prefer tradition, because my life is based on tradition. I am the first son of the third son of the third son, all of whom (me included) are named david. I dont know, tradition just feels right for me

well unlike my dearest friend here i don't really care which for i live my life just being swept away by the tide trying to keep my parents and friends happy.

[iamraisen]

What about honoring the ART of which you partake...if it is a TMA?

it is seeped in bhudist tradition, and i am not :D also the art doesnt get offended easily if i dont :)

[tommy]

it is seeped in bhudist tradition, and i am not :D also the art doesnt get offended easily if i dont :)

haha. Well as a TMA, I want to be absorbed in the culture (not entirely), but to understnad the nature and genisis of the art. I think you will be a better karateka in the individual art if you absorb it all. Personally speaking it is one of the reasons I train.

[kataman]

My opinion is that tradition is like habits some are bad some are good. my training is all habit and tradition. I do my kata in the way I was trained. I begin, through repetition, to understand the many applications involved with the form, I also build my body in the way I wish it to be. I likewise have preparations I go through before a match, such things keep me focused. Bad traditions are those which serve no useful purpose at all. The trick is, that telling the difference is not always easy in the beginning. b/c we may see no use when one actualy eixists.

[Alexander]

Tradition is fine as long as it serves a purpose. If there is a more effective way then we should use that. The worst thing we can do when someone makes a valid point about why a technique is performed in a certain way (when it could be made better) is to say: "because we've always done it that way!"

[iamraisen]

haha. Well as a TMA, I want to be absorbed in the culture (not entirely), but to understnad the nature and genisis of the art. I think you will be a better karateka in the individual art if you absorb it all. Personally speaking it is one of the reasons I train.

it isnt one of the reasons i train. i cant really relate to it at all either, not thati have tried. infact buddist thai culture is about as far away from mine as possible.

[The Damned]

yep, i totally agree with tradition. And when we talk of tradition we often refer to the bowing (etiquette) and maybe the clothing, or strict way certain aspect of training are adhered to. But, to me thats why we need it. Disicpline and respect. I enrolled my 7 year old son into shotokan when he was 5. He loves it, its very traditional. I wouldn't have him learning an art that wasn't traditional. its also very educational. There are enough McDojos around the place that have very little structure and discipline as it is.
i can't help thinking that 'non-traditional' means 'modern'. Anyone else think the same? Nothing wrong with modern, but its nice to have an art with history that goes back further than the senior instructor dan grade!
Martial arts means relating to military. Do we see any military forces that aren't almost completely steeped in tradition? But, its still an open opinion, you either does or you doesn't, i prefer does!

[Scarlet Mist]

Things MUST be changed for advances to be made, some traditions just have to go. For example a few of those in MA that greedy people take advantage of (since we can't get rid of the greedy people the tradition must go).

My thoughts: forget tradition ... and the police

[gedhab]

My thoughts: forget tradition ... and the police

hahahha! :D

[iamraisen]

yep, i totally agree with tradition. And when we talk of tradition we often refer to the bowing (etiquette) and maybe the clothing, or strict way certain aspect of training are adhered to. But, to me thats why we need it. Disicpline and respect. I enrolled my 7 year old son into shotokan when he was 5. He loves it, its very traditional. I wouldn't have him learning an art that wasn't traditional. its also very educational. There are enough McDojos around the place that have very little structure and discipline as it is.
i can't help thinking that 'non-traditional' means 'modern'. Anyone else think the same? Nothing wrong with modern, but its nice to have an art with history that goes back further than the senior instructor dan grade!
Martial arts means relating to military. Do we see any military forces that aren't almost completely steeped in tradition? But, its still an open opinion, you either does or you doesn't, i prefer does!

but how relevant is it to your life? shotokan karate is steeped in japanese tradition, not british tradition (unlike that of the british military's traditions). i feel that if you try to absorb the tradition of some MA's it is in some way living a lie. You are not ninja's, samuri's, or kung-fu legends! i see tradition in MA as a means of escapism,pretending to be someone your not, from modern life in a similar way to how people use role playing games. the only difference is that when the game is over the gamers stop believing.

[kataman]

but how relevant is it to your life? shotokan karate is steeped in japanese tradition, not british tradition (unlike that of the british military's traditions). i feel that if you try to absorb the tradition of some MA's it is in some way living a lie. You are not ninja's, samuri's, or kung-fu legends! i see tradition in MA as a means of escapism,pretending to be someone your not, from modern life in a similar way to how people use role playing games. the only difference is that when the game is over the gamers stop believing.

Very, Very good point, I have personally seen sad cases of lost identity because of similar situations (in gaming to). I believe the key is to understand the tradition (even if it’s just respect).

I am an American raised in Europe for the best half of my life, and traveled frequently with my family afterwards. Different cultures have always interested me, but having a unique one myself, I can say this. If a culture fits your personality in someway, it dose not hurt to adopt parts of it in your habits. However, conforming your personality to meet such a culture is not admirable, it is destructive.

As for me and the Samurai, we have one thing in common…neither of us like to be defeated :D

[Hung-Fut]

If you're for tradition then you must be for the code. I personally am a Shaolin Kung Fu-ist, so naturally I follow the code of Shaolin as best as possible. I see a nice correlation between their code and the traditions of Shaolin. For me to better understand the code, I must understand the tradition. The two go hand in hand. As I wish to better understand the culture, it helps to understand the tradition... Plus, it's just respectful.

[kataman]

The only ‘code’ that my dojo has are:
foster the spirit of effort, defend the paths of truth and guard against impetuous courage. This is really more like a creed of the sensei’s beliefs for good karate.
I am unfamiliar with a Shaulin code, please explain it to me so I understand.

[Xue Fang]

I don't believe in adhering to tradition just because it's tradition and doesn't have a point to it - I think it's good to introduce new ways of doing things and techniques.

However, that said, if the old ways are still relevant and a crucial part of the MA, then sure, I'm all for it.

Basically, if its pointless tradition, scrap it and bring in something new, but if it actually serves a purpose, then keep it.

[MartialArtsSnob]

I don't believe in adhering to tradition just because it's tradition and doesn't have a point to it - I think it's good to introduce new ways of doing things and techniques.

However, that said, if the old ways are still relevant and a crucial part of the MA, then sure, I'm all for it.

Basically, if its pointless tradition, scrap it and bring in something new, but if it actually serves a purpose, then keep it.

This is very true, it does however get sticky when people change a "Tradition" without full knowledge of why it is a tradition.

Snob

[Hung-Fut]

The Shaolin code in my opinion is also their way. Shaolin-Do being the original name, it's easy to assume that most philosophies apply to their Martial Way. But to answer your question, their code has a few simple rules to abide by. It's pretty average, once anyone hears it they'll nod their head and say, "Oh yeah. I know what you're talking about."
[not in any order]
-Do not brag about your skill
-Do not teach without the Sifu's permission
-Do not take on techniques you are not advanced enough to learn
-Do not learn another style without the Sifu's knowledge
-Do not instigate a fight
-Only fight when you must defend yourself/others.
-Do not lie about your rank/skill level
My school was very laxed... rarely did we call our instructor Sifu and we were encouraged to question him... most of the time :-P Aside from that, I think that "traditional code" can help to outline a good moral character and a good person. So, tradition is a good thing in my opinion.