is boxing a street worthy style

[Lance Uppercut]

I was thinking of takeing boxing. But i wanted to know if it is a street worthy style or is it good in those inevitable street fights.

[alex_000]

It's a very practical method of self defence. There is no good and bad system. You and your teacher make an art good or bad.

Boxing -pros and cons for t3h str33t.

Pros :1) You learn the stronger faster and yet simpler method of punching (nuff said).2) A lot of conditioning is going on meaning you will get stronger , you will have good stamina. 3)If you're in a street fight you'll probably notice your legs will get kind of num (thats the adrenaline kicking in) and you will be more comfortable using your hands so boxing has an advatage to other arts that concertrate more on kicking when it comes to street fighting. (but the adrenaline effect isn't the same for everyone) 4)Sparring is going on so you will get comfortable with people trying to hit you and trading punches

Cons.1) The limited rules. You will only learn to punch and thats it. No elbow strikes , no knees , no kicks, no grappling, no takedowns, no clinching. 2)You will be more comfortable fighting with the gloves than your hands but you can work it out. 3)No "self defence" training - like how to avoid a fight , fighting multiple opponents , no weapons training. 4)weight divisions , thats not a bad thing if you're heavy but boxing doesn't have the small guy kicking ass approatch other MA's do. To sum it up the heavier you are the more affective boxing will be.

In general i think that a good boxer is very capable of defending himself anywhere.

[Punchy]

Although boxing only teaches you to use your fists this is often all you will be able to use in a self defence situation. Quite often people are attacked in a bus or train where the floor is jolting and moving so much that it is not possible to use kicks or knees. They may also be seated and not have room for anything but punching. I have used boxing to defend myself in that type of situation and it was very effective.

It may also be a good idea to cross train with some grappling style such as Judo.

[CFT]

I don't really know anything about boxing personally other than what I've seen on TV. But I have just sparred a guy from my kung fu club (Mantis[him] vs. Wing Chun[me]) and he was suddenly so much better, which he put down to some boxing training he'd put in at a gym.

His own words were to the effect that it had helped a lot with his footwork. His hands were much faster too.

I have no doubts that boxing and its training regime can make someone street effective, even from a SD point of view.

[jabcrosshook]

It may also be a good idea to cross train with some grappling style such as Judo.

Boxing+Judo=good combination.

[Yukimushu]

It's a very practical method of self defence. There is no good and bad system. You and your teacher make an art good or bad.


Very true...

Fists are a natural and instinctive weapon when it comes to fighting. You see a 2 year old baby hit another baby because he stole her toy. That wasn't learned from TV, or magazine. It was instinct.

Boxing is a very practical fighting art with simple, direct, straight, simple strikes. It gets you confident using your hands, and you also begin to become more comfortable when striking at close distances.

[Lance Uppercut]

Thanks guys

[Yukimushu]

No problem ;) Anymore questions, don't hesitate to ask! :)

[shootodog]

Boxing+Judo=good combination.

wasn't there a hybrid style called judoboxe or juboxe? judo + boxing + knees and elbows!

boxing is applicable for self defense. variations of boxing like "jailhouse boxing" and "tondo freestyle" were really created on the streets with a solid foundation on boxing without rules.

another "ancient" western martial art, pugalism, was a very very brutal way of boxing. it had no rules.

[Hybrid_Killer]

One of the best in fact.

[TheMachine]

definitely practical.

[Yukimushu]

One of the best styles for self defence if you ask me! even though it's just a ...' sport '. :rolleyes:

[Ressla]

Very true...

Fists are a natural and instinctive weapon when it comes to fighting. You see a 2 year old baby hit another baby because he stole her toy. That wasn't learned from TV, or magazine. It was instinct.

Boxing is a very practical fighting art with simple, direct, straight, simple strikes. It gets you confident using your hands, and you also begin to become more comfortable when striking at close distances.

I think you'll find babies SLAP with open hands rather than PUNCH with closed fists. I have never seen a toddler hit out with a closed fist.

The fist has to be learnt , and the majority of people who attempt to punch for the first time end up holding the thumb inside the fingers.

Besides striking may be a natural reaction , but so is grappling ( watch any schoolyard fight).

I do , however, agree with the gist of your post. ;)

[inosanto1]

It's a very practical method of self defence. There is no good and bad system. You and your teacher make an art good or bad.

Boxing -pros and cons for t3h str33t.

Pros :1) You learn the stronger faster and yet simpler method of punching (nuff said).2) A lot of conditioning is going on meaning you will get stronger , you will have good stamina. 3)If you're in a street fight you'll probably notice your legs will get kind of num (thats the adrenaline kicking in) and you will be more comfortable using your hands so boxing has an advatage to other arts that concertrate more on kicking when it comes to street fighting. (but the adrenaline effect isn't the same for everyone) 4)Sparring is going on so you will get comfortable with people trying to hit you and trading punches

Cons.1) The limited rules. You will only learn to punch and thats it. No elbow strikes , no knees , no kicks, no grappling, no takedowns, no clinching. 2)You will be more comfortable fighting with the gloves than your hands but you can work it out. 3)No "self defence" training - like how to avoid a fight , fighting multiple opponents , no weapons training. 4)weight divisions , thats not a bad thing if you're heavy but boxing doesn't have the small guy kicking ass approatch other MA's do. To sum it up the heavier you are the more affective boxing will be.

In general i think that a good boxer is very capable of defending himself anywhere.
how does being bigger make boxing more effective, i would bet on hagler or Hearns to beat Harrison, tyson, holmes. Boxing does have it's levels of self defence as well, it has blocking and trapping modes, a clinch is a trap.

[Yukimushu]

how does being bigger make boxing more effective

How? Because in most cases, weight matters in a fight. This is why they have weight divisions in boxing compititions.

[inosanto1]

How? Because in most cases, weight matters in a fight. This is why they have weight divisions in boxing compititions.
i agree to a certain degree but when you get larger guys in the ring they are usually slower and sluggish concentrating on the big punch, not necessarily boxing(Ali v Foreman) yes there are divisions within boxing as it has rules and a governing body, but it does not make weightier blokes better boxers.

[alex_000]

I'm not going to get into pro vs pro debate. If you are 150pounds and you fight a 200pound equal skilled boxer you'll understand yourself why weight makes boxing more effective.

What I mostly talked about though is that boxing has the weight division approach meaning a)you will seldomly fight guys bigger than you b)the approach other MA's have to fighting -technique is more important that strenght so you will learn how to fight bigger and stronger guys- isn't exactly there in boxing. (I don't think that is so important but i thought i'd mention it)

[inosanto1]

agreed. technique and speed are probably the most important elements.

[AAAhmed46]

A big man with a black belt in karate will have an advantage over a small man with a black belt in karate.

Skill is more important then size yes, but if you ever go off and face a fighter who is big and skilled, then you are in trouble!

[Tribalweapon]

In a word: yes

[cybermonk]

I like boxing, I like watching it and I did a bit of "playtime boxing" when I used to live on the island and I have seen boxer friends defend themselves pretty well. The only main problem I see with boxing is that it only makes use of half your tools but theres no doubt that it does what it is meant to do very well. I think you should do a bit of something kick oriented to go along with boxing simply because its good to know how to use the legs. The legs are good for the times you want to hit someone who is sitting down with a power hit to send him to the floor with chair and everything and jump on him for the kill or similar situations, it allows for a bigger range of options.

[shuyun3]

okay donn't flame me for stating a movie example guys. it's simply an illustration.

In the movie (here goes) Kiss of the Dragon, when Jet Li was in the chinese restaurant he made minced meat of several attackers. especially those stupid enough to enter while smoke was billowing. While he made quick work of the others he stopped and took time to study this big black french guy that adopted a boxing stance and guard.

Jet Li of course eventually won (it's his movie) but to prove a point, the boxer simply covered up against Jet Li's initial flurry of attacks. I've seen this kind of defense in our dojo that a muai thai guy can block a roundhouse to the head simply by flexing his delts and biceps near his face then counter punch. It was quite effective.

Boxing is quite self sufficient (reality now) the below the belt defense is not such a big issue as long as the boxer is aware of the situation and trains for it. (After tyson bit holyfield's ear i guess everyone else would feel theri heart skip a bear when ever the clinch comes in).

Boxers, in lieu of the missing blocks parries and other defenses makes up for it by using footwork, feinting, bobbing and weaving which are in no way inferior. A boxer would have the strategy (we're saying veteran boxer here) and the conditioning to take hits even from a 540 spinning kick. Why did Ali get his Parkinsons? Because during his matches with frazier he kept taking hits that should have knocked him down.

How many other martial artists could go the distance of 12, 3 minute rounds? Not many. Yet it is a very street effective art (i got out of my latest encounter with 3 left jabs, no kidding!). The punches are crisp clean and powerful.

So don't let the simplicity of boxing turn you off. It's the simplicity that makes it work.

[Tribalweapon]

It's the simplicity that makes it work.

Hence the Accronym (sp?)

Keep
It
Simple
Stupid

[cybermonk]

How many other martial artists could go the distance of 12, 3 minute rounds?

Any other martial artist that would want to train to go the distance of 12, 3 minute rounds maybe?
:Angel:

[Zen TKD Warrior]

A big man with a black belt in karate will have an advantage over a small man with a black belt in karate.

Skill is more important then size yes, but if you ever go off and face a fighter who is big and skilled, then you are in trouble!

Don't really agree with that first statement. I have fought bigger guys all my life - I'm 5' 6" - and only been really beat down once. In the dojo, most of our guys are taller and several are taller and weigh more. Only one person in the dojo beat me on a regular basis - my instructor. And he was much bigger and skilled than me.

As for the initial question - Any art that teaches self defence will help you "on the street". But remember this - instead of relying on the art incorporate it into all that you know and have learned about fighting. I have seen skilled martial artist with years of training beat down on the street because they thought they could take on anyone. I took TKD for years, but would never think to do a kick that forces me off the ground in a street fight. Too many problems with being air borne while your oppoent is grounded.

Then again, I avoid getting into situations where I would have to fight - anywhere. That seems easier to me.

[Yukimushu]

Size is not the deciding factor of a fight; but it is undoubtedly an advantage.

As for boxing being street worth; yes, it sure is. It's one of the more effective striking arts. It's simple science, direct, efficient and has been proven time and time again.

[shootodog]

Size is not the deciding factor of a fight; but it is undoubtedly an advantage.

As for boxing being street worth; yes, it sure is. It's one of the more effective striking arts. It's simple science, direct, efficient and has been proven time and time again.

oh yeah. even in the old nhb there is a sub-system called: being manhandled by a big guy! :eek:

[JKD guy]

As [ex-bouncer] Marc MacYoung put it: "I would rather fight an 'expert martial artist', than a 'so-so boxer' ".

Kind of says it all, no ?

[Yukimushu]

lol yes, it sure does :D

[shuyun3]

Any other martial artist that would want to train to go the distance of 12, 3 minute rounds maybe?
:Angel:
let me add to that. 12, 3 minute rounds of full striking. We'd want to but few make it that far. Remember when the UFC had 30 minute rounds? it was about 15-20 minutes of no movement.

[shuyun3]

More to the point, boxing is a martial art. Simplicity in approach does not invalidate its effectiveness.

Of the 100 techniques that we know, how many do you use in the street? Or even in a tournament.

Back in my judo days sensei told us to select three throws and perfect it from any angle any situation during fight seasons. If yoou ask how to do a new technique it will not be shown because there would be no time to commit it to muscle memory.

Instead of techniques boxing has a repertoire of tactics and strategies (the old one-two, rope-a-dope, etc). This teaches you to recognize situations and take advantage of them.

[Yukimushu]

let me add to that. 12, 3 minute rounds of full striking. We'd want to but few make it that far. Remember when the UFC had 30 minute rounds? it was about 15-20 minutes of no movement.

Ohhh no no no; grappling is not " no movement ". If you've studied grappling before, then im sure you'll be aware that it's alot more tiring than if you were standing striking.

[cybermonk]

Ohhh no no no; grappling is not " no movement ". If you've studied grappling before, then im sure you'll be aware that it's alot more tiring than if you were standing striking.

Thats true, I have never studied grappling but I have grappled and it really annoys me putting constant strength against someone else, tires me out really easy.

[shuyun3]

Ohhh no no no; grappling is not " no movement ". If you've studied grappling before, then im sure you'll be aware that it's alot more tiring than if you were standing striking.

oh i understand the effort necessary to stay in grappling. my arms end up so pumped i couldn't flex them.

but in that exertion little or no change in position takes place, some lousy attempts at bridging entering locks, maintaining the guard and all that sort of jazz. but you have to admit that there are moments of staus quo where no one exerts but simply maintains a nominal lock to conserve strength. you just stacy locked with no actual force waiting fior the other to move. especially if you're in the guard.

but that only happens in boxing during clinches and eventhen the referee promptly breaks it up. but you if ever tried dishing out combos at top speed even on a heavy bag it takes so little time to punch out. and when you're beat up its longer.

all I'm saying is that boxers have been trained to take punishment for the whole nine yards such that in the extreme case of Ali his fortitude also caused his ailment. So many headshots, so much tissue damage should have felled him in his matches against Frazier. How many other martial artists(except kick boxers maybe) could take as much punishment and stay stnading, and keep on standing for 12 rounds despite cuts, black eyes etc. Adn multiply that to the number of fights recorded in a boxer's career? How many martial artists would have a professional record of 40+ fights mostly by KO. How many bloodied people can we count in tournaments?

These sheer numbers should tell us something. Commercial they may be but immagine how much more damage they would do if they wore only MMA gloves. Boxers are strategic strikers that deserve respect from teh martial arts community.

This is what this thread is about. Yes they are street worthy and yes it is a martial art comparable to any eastern martial art that exists.

[Yukimushu]

I can't help but feel that you think im being disrespectful towards boxing, boxers and the conditioning and work which goes into becomming a good boxer.

This is not the case. I'm currently boxing 2 / 3 days a week when im not grappling. I agree with you on the hard labour which goes into it all. Boxers are very well conditioned and deserve alot of respect.

But being an avid grappler as well; I felt I should correct you when you said that grappling is just " 15-20 minutes of no movement. "

[Martial7]

ahhh boxing, the "sweet" science of fighting. No i dont mean sweet as in soft, i mean sweet as in easy to learn and apply in real life situations. I will go as far as to say that boxing is the perfect foundation to training in a martial art style that involves sparring. Street worthy? Yes it is !!!

[shuyun3]

I can't help but feel that you think im being disrespectful towards boxing, boxers and the conditioning and work which goes into becomming a good boxer.

This is not the case. I'm currently boxing 2 / 3 days a week when im not grappling. I agree with you on the hard labour which goes into it all. Boxers are very well conditioned and deserve alot of respect.

But being an avid grappler as well; I felt I should correct you when you said that grappling is just " 15-20 minutes of no movement. "
and it was your right to correct me. i do not disrespect grappling as well. what i simply meant by no movement was the seeming in activity. great effort yes there is (i could still remember my hands limp after randori) i just am of the notion that you get tired faster punching out than being exhausted in the guard (having expreienced both). if this is contrary to your experience i do not invalidate your statements.

accept my apologies.

[Yukimushu]

lol there's no need to apologise :)

Personally I feel its one of those situations where they'd both be exhausted if they were to swap roles.

[shuyun3]

quite true. can't punch after much grappling. can't grapple after much punching

[Mawi]

Boxing needs to be called a MA. Lets be onest here if you take 2 peolpe and one learns boxing the other learns a style of kung fu or something and if you give them 1 year to train i think boxing would win. (boxing doesn't take that long to learn) Why you might ask. Beacuse boxers only got a few moves and they pratcie thous moves over and over and over but kung fu or other arts seam to teach new things makeing it hard to master one move. If you think about it a person that masters a few moves can take down a person that knows many moves and hasn't mastered none.

Also another factor is a good boxer's body is like rock. Day by day weights,runing,rope, bag work makes the boxers very fit. In other arts you you can't do as much weights beacuse "it makes you slow" but that is BS beacuse weights make you better more power and speed. One thing that might be bad for most boxers is that they can only use there hands, lets say a good thai fighter might low kick them till there legs get rubbery, or a BJJ fighter might tap them out. If you take boxing and learn a good stikeing art with legs (Kickboxing,muay thai) you will be even better.

[Tom Yum Guy]

I'd add that a large part of boxing training involves sparring, which means learning how to land effectively and getting used to getting hit.

Traditional MAs have there merit, but there's nothing quite like facing someone trying to spontaneously hit you and slow you down.

[Timmy Boy]

I'd add that a large part of boxing training involves sparring, which means learning how to land effectively and getting used to getting hit.

Traditional MAs have there merit, but there's nothing quite like facing someone trying to spontaneously hit you and slow you down.

That's what I plan to do with boxing, I do it at the moment to get a good foundation using my basic weapons and then move on to more complex fighting e.g. muay thai.

[MerKaBa]

Boxing hasn't failed me yet, and trouble seems to find me quite a lot. There are some things that boxing doesn't offer, id est grappling, throwing, kicking, etc., but the most effective hand strikes I've learned, and I've sampled many styles, were in boxing. Even Bruce Lee incorporated it into his style.

[johndoch]

I think Alex 000 pretty much summed it up in the first reply

nuff said

for those who havent read it, read it

[alex_000]

thanks ;)

[MerKaBa]

I think Alex 000 pretty much summed it up in the first reply

nuff said

for those who havent read it, read it


Yeah, I guess I should have payed attention to all the posts before I posted... oh well. My answer was like a lazier, poor version of his :p

[shuyun3]

nuff? Oh please one more this was such a fun thread

[Knight_Errant]

This exact thread comes up on a regular basis here.
What people mean when they say 'boxing isn't a thtweet worthy style' is 'I can't be bothered to train hard, so I'd like to criticise those who do'.

[Timmy Boy]

This exact thread comes up on a regular basis here.
What people mean when they say 'boxing isn't a thtweet worthy style' is 'I can't be bothered to train hard, so I'd like to criticise those who do'.

Or it could be the old "I saw one person who does boxing get beaten up, therefore it's rubbish". :rolleyes:

One thing I think I should mention is that boxing has influenced the hand techniques of other famous styles like muay thai, kickboxing, and even my old kung fu club. The quality of boxing speaks for itself IMO.

[Richdog]

I'd choose Muay Thai over boxing though if I had the choice nearby. Im not saying boxing isn't a good street art, one of my friends boyfriends is boxer, a damn good one, and i've seen him win fight after fight in a club or on the street. But if I had a choice of who i'd rather fight out of a boxer who has trained for 2 years and a Muay Thai practitioner who has also trained for 2 years i'd lay out a red carpet for the boxer and paint a big target on my forehead. I've been to some MT comps and two of my friends do it also, I don't think boxing compares to it in terms of downright ability to deal someone some serious damage.

But if there's only boxing in your area do it, you'll learn how to fight and get very fit. It's a good art. :)

[shootodog]

euthanize this thread please!

[Hazmatac]

I don't go on here much, and I'm not FULLY done with this thread, but there's something I noticed.

Boxing+Judo=good combination.

Boxing + Judo = Japanese Jujitsu.

(+knees + elbows + headbutts + kicks ....)

[YODA]

I don't go on here much, and I'm not FULLY done with this thread, but there's something I noticed.



Boxing + Judo = Japanese Jujitsu.


Rubbish!

When did Japanese JJ punch with the mobility & finese of a boxer?

[Freeform]

Rubbish!

When did Japanese JJ punch with the mobility & finese of a boxer?

True. Nothing really resembling a jab or a decent lead hook, or the mobility given by a boxers footwork.

[Hazmatac]

Rubbish!

When did Japanese JJ punch with the mobility & finese of a boxer?

This probably is the exception not the rule. The sensei of my sensei before he died was always improving on Ju-jitsu, putting in effective easy-to-do moves from other styles.

One day he was sparring with a boxer and he was using karate style strikes. The boxer gave a jab and broke his nose. Our sensei then broke the boxers arm with the next jab he threw, however, he realized how effective boxing is.

Now we are incorporating boxing style punches. Since there is just so much areas to cover in jujitsu, we might go awhile without reviewing punches or working on just punches, so we don't have the finnesse and mobility of a boxer.

Again, we might be the exception and not the rule... I don't know how other dojos run their programs.

[Timmy Boy]

One day he was sparring with a boxer and he was using karate style strikes. The boxer gave a jab and broke his nose. Our sensei then broke the boxers arm with the next jab he threw, however, he realized how effective boxing is.

A jab broke the boxer's arm? :rolleyes:

[Hazmatac]

A jab broke the boxer's arm? :rolleyes:

lol, wasn't the boxers fault. :) There's a lock/break we do where you grab the outside of the wrist when somebody throws a punch (only if they extend it all the way or almost all the way out), then smash the elbow with other arm (with your hand or your forearm). It will snap the arm. It might have been a slower strike then a jab, like a cross.

[Timmy Boy]

lol, wasn't the boxers fault. :) There's a lock/break we do where you grab the outside of the wrist when somebody throws a punch (only if they extend it all the way or almost all the way out), then smash the elbow with other arm (with your hand or your forearm). It will snap the arm. It might have been a slower strike then a jab, like a cross.

Did you actually see this happen? Your jujutsu instructor sparring with a boxer and breaking his arm after grabbing a jab?

[Hazmatac]

Did you actually see this happen? Your jujutsu instructor sparring with a boxer and breaking his arm after grabbing a jab?

No, but it is possible. I have seen the move demonstrated, and felt it on me before the breaking point. Once the arm is extended it is easy to snap. I'll have a video for you soon if you still want to see after Saturday. The point is we use boxing in our style of jujitsu.

[Timmy Boy]

No, but it is possible. I have seen the move demonstrated, and felt it on me before the breaking point. Once the arm is extended it is easy to snap. I'll have a video for you soon if you still want to see after Saturday. The point is we use boxing in our style of jujitsu.

I don't contest whether it's humanly possible...

[Hazmatac]

I don't contest whether it's humanly possible...

Then what do you contest specifically? That it didn't happen? And what would it prove even if the fight never took place? We still incorporate boxing. Like I said, I'll have the vid up sometime after Saturday if you want.

[inosanto1]

Has anybody looked at the history of the arts, really, if you look at kali and the influence it had on western boxing. ok , you do not use your legs, but hey, that can put wou off balance. boxing is economical, direct and efficient. as far as the comparison with thai, many of the thai fighters do not have very strong hand skills because they concentrate on the kicks which can be devastating and usually don't have to go that far :D

[Timmy Boy]

Then what do you contest specifically? That it didn't happen? And what would it prove even if the fight never took place? We still incorporate boxing. Like I said, I'll have the vid up sometime after Saturday if you want.

What I contest is not relevant to this thread, hence I didn't go into greater detail. If you really want to know, PM me.

[AciDRaiN]

Boxing is a sport and you train for sport not for streets. Can it be used on the street, Ohya sure it can but almost every idiot on the street knows how to box and expect you to do the same. Maybe your better but unless they are extremely stupid boxing someone down might take you a little time. A fight on the street SHOULD NOT last longer than 3 seconds and thats not something boxing trains for.

When boxing his friends don't jump in the ring and help him out. On the street that is more often than not going to happen now a days.

Simply put, boxing on the streets, sure everyone already does it, it can be done. Will it be nearly as effective as a martial art designed with self defense in mind, absolutly not.

AciDRaiN

[slipthejab]

Boxing is a sport and you train for sport not for streets. Can it be used on the street, Ohya sure it can but almost every idiot on the street knows how to box and expect you to do the same.
Sorry - but you're just plain wrong here.
There are many people that have no idea of how to box. Not one iota of boxing skill. If they did the internet wouldn't be litter with people throwing wild haymakers with no guard or throwing telegraphed girly slaps instead of snappy punch combos.


Maybe your better but unless they are extremely stupid boxing someone down might take you a little time.
You seem to be confusing skilled boxing with people throwing punches. The two are not the same you would do well to learn the difference so as to make your post clearer to readers here on MAP.

A fight on the street SHOULD NOT last longer than 3 seconds and thats not something boxing trains for.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda - I've seen any number of fights and been in a few scraps myself that lasted a heck of a lot longer than 3 sec. - Trying to use some sort of blanket rule for situation with as many variables as a street fight is silly.

When boxing his friends don't jump in the ring and help him out. On the street that is more often than not going to happen now a days.

Again... no it's not. There are dozens of videos of gusy doing toe to toe, one on one... mano y mano... plenty of friends standing around on all sides with no one jumping in. Again you're trying to make a generalization. KO someone with a nice little combo and you'd be surprised how often his mates will decline to be next in line.:D

Simply put, boxing on the streets, sure everyone already does it, it can be done. Will it be nearly as effective as a martial art designed with self defense in mind, absolutly not.

AciDRaiN

Again you seem to be confusing boxing with everday scrapping or throwing punches. I would have to ask what your experience with boxing is? Have you ever boxed in a competitive situation? Who have you trained under? What gym and what trainer?

The reason for asking is that your post is misinformed by and large. It woudl help if you could define what you mean by 'boxing'... it appears to be vastly different from people like myself who box consider boxing.

[kenpoguy]

I'll keep my post short but sweet. As its been said, anybody can make their art superior to another. If somebody lives, does, and sweats boxing, then they will be a great boxer and know how to fight in a ring. They will have a much better chance of defending themself compared to the average joe. They also have incredible power shots, that can deck even the most trained martial artists. Their style, however, leaves much room to differ. If a boxer went up against somebody who was a specalist in attacking from an outside range, then theyd run into some trouble. If a boxer fell victim to a groin shot or weapon, then theyd be in trouble. Its sort of like a triangle that never ends. It doesn't nessasairly matter what combat you system has, but almost all lack in certain areas. If you are overly concerend with fighting one way, then somebody will find a way to counter it with another, and likewise their style will be soon countered. And this continues , much like a circle within the triangle. This is no matter what style you study, it is best to approach it with an open mind, yet always with doubt. Only after you can visualize and bet your life on your particular technique working, should that doubt go away...

[Richdog]

Boxing is a sport and you train for sport not for streets. Can it be used on the street, Ohya sure it can but almost every idiot on the street knows how to box and expect you to do the same. Maybe your better but unless they are extremely stupid boxing someone down might take you a little time. A fight on the street SHOULD NOT last longer than 3 seconds and thats not something boxing trains for.

When boxing his friends don't jump in the ring and help him out. On the street that is more often than not going to happen now a days.

Simply put, boxing on the streets, sure everyone already does it, it can be done. Will it be nearly as effective as a martial art designed with self defense in mind, absolutly not.

AciDRaiN

Couldst though speaketh any more rubbish? Almost any idiot on the street knows how to box? A fight should be over in 3 seconds? Won't be as effective as a martial art designed for self-defence?

You've obviously a) never been in a fight and b) never seen someone who can box well in a streetfight. the average boxer will wiple the floor with the average idiot. In fact i'd go as far to say that in a street fight that the average boxer, never mind a good one, would wipe the floor with the average "self-defence" trained guy who will likely have done about 10x less actual sparring and hitting people in his "self-defence" class...

[CrazyMoonwalker]

Couldst though speaketh any more rubbish? Almost any idiot on the street knows how to box? A fight should be over in 3 seconds? Won't be as effective as a martial art designed for self-defence?


Maybe he meant that someone who fights on the street is likely to know how to punch decently (meaning more than just waving punches in the air), as the ones who dont know how to fight are unlikely to start a brawl. And maybe he meant that a martial-art designed for self defence is better suited to deal with multiple assailants, and can resort to other techniques if punches are not enough.

If that's what he meant then he might have a point. As for the rest, what were youthinking Acidrain? :confused:

[Richdog]

The term "idiot on the street" of which there are a moronic plenty in my area doesn't come accross as meaning "streetfighter" to me. :)

[inosanto1]

well, happy new year to all, i hope we are all ready for the year ahead and all the training that may come our way.
I am curious about the idea that any idiot on the street knows how to box, if that were true, most of them would be in the ring using that talent, and although some may know how to hit in short busts, when drunk, these will be very short, i feel boxerws do not any credit for their art

[philliphall]

Thank heavens Acidrain is here to point out my mistake. I train for eight or nine hours a week in (Thai) boxing (very painfully) when I don't need to as apparently to as any idiot can box. Can you suggest an uber deadly street art for me ?. What is it this Christmas with Kung Fu fantacists (no offense to the sensible majority of practioners out there) ?. Someone call in that Gee bloke from the other threads.

P.S. Boxing is excellent for 'the street'. You learn to hit, not be hit and take a hit. You gain strength, conditioning, confidence and how to deal with adreneline. All rather handy (and it is a wonderful sport).

[kenpoguy]

The tension here seems to be rising... To everyone out there, lets respect each others arts. We all do combative arts for our own reasons, so lets not bash them or push what they are really meant for...

[inosanto1]

here,here. also, i think all MA should look at the way they fight in sparring and in reality, regardless of the art, if you train traditional, karate as an example, do you adpt the stances and punches or do you move around freely using varied footwork, and lets face it the feet and hands only have a number of ways to move and in any situation, ya gonna use the most economical, regardles of art and association. Good will to all MA:-)

[AAAhmed46]

Man, im still sickened to see that this needs discussion.

How many times do we need this thread?

It is a VERY street effective style.

1) They teach you to hit HARD, maximizing use of hip rotation and some knee rotation.

2) YOU ACTUALLY GET HIT AND KNOW HOW TO COPE WITH IT!

"Oh, my opponent can kick me in the knees" well, if somone throws a round-house to the knees, all you have to do is step in an jab. If you hit him before he hits you, your safe.


Dont believe me or Yuki or anyone else on these boards? Find a boxers gym, challenge them to a match, and watch yourself get your ASS handed to you.

[ANCIENTMASTER]

Man, im still sickened to see that this needs discussion.

How many times do we need this thread?

It is a VERY street effective style.

1) They teach you to hit HARD, maximizing use of hip rotation and some knee rotation.

2) YOU ACTUALLY GET HIT AND KNOW HOW TO COPE WITH IT!

"Oh, my opponent can kick me in the knees" well, if somone throws a round-house to the knees, all you have to do is step in an jab. If you hit him before he hits you, your safe.


Dont believe me or Yuki or anyone else on these boards? Find a boxers gym, challenge them to a match, and watch yourself get your ASS handed to you.

Cons of boxing:

1) If you get taken down and you've never done any kind of ground fighting, you're in trouble. Even if the opponent simply closes the distance is very close, the boxer looses alot of options.

2) It's very easy for a boxer to break his knuckles, ESPECIALLY when trying to box in the street.

3) Boxing stance leaves the groin exposed.

4) An elbow does more damage than a punch, there are many different strikes that aren't punches that can still do damage.

5) Trapping is great on the street, boxers arent trained to trap or grapple, two things that are essential on the street.

6) Its a combat sport, size matters.

[hux]

I only have a couple of issues:

Acidrain - I wouldn't say a lot of people know how to box. A lot of people know how to throw arm punches and wiggle their neck a bit whilst they stand straight up and in one place ;) Boxing is quite a bit different.

Ancientmaster:
Valid points, but substitute any striking art for boxing and the points remain. Some of yall are eventually going to have to come to grips with the fact that a lot of people don't train for the ground ;)

Kenpoguy:
You get used to it. Any style vs style thread or "is art X street effective" thread inevitably ends with a big ol' flamefest.

The techniques in boxing are easy to learn, difficult to master - having said that, I would definitely rather fight an expert TMA'er than an average boxer. There is, IMHO, no efficiency of effort that compares to that found in boxing.

[AAAhmed46]

Cons of boxing:

1) If you get taken down and you've never done any kind of ground fighting, you're in trouble. Even if the opponent simply closes the distance is very close, the boxer looses alot of options.

2) It's very easy for a boxer to break his knuckles, ESPECIALLY when trying to box in the street.

3) Boxing stance leaves the groin exposed.

4) An elbow does more damage than a punch, there are many different strikes that aren't punches that can still do damage.

5) Trapping is great on the street, boxers arent trained to trap or grapple, two things that are essential on the street.

6) Its a combat sport, size matters.

EVERY style has it's flaws, does not mean it isnt street effective.

Kung-fu schools often train many students with the habit of touch combat. They will not be able psychologically handle someone coming at them with the intent of actually hurting them.

Groin is exposed? My karate teacher said quote: "the easiest people to hit in the groin are martial artists, especially those that dont use low kicks"
Many kung-fu schools have the same problem.

Boxers clinch...somewhat. It may not be as advanced as muay thai or jujutsu, but it is still a part of thier sparring.


THe fact that a boxer is accostomed to getting hit alone makes it street worthy.

Can anyone punch harder then a boxer? maybe an internal guy who brawls...MAYBE.

[slipthejab]

Cons of boxing:

1) If you get taken down and you've never done any kind of ground fighting, you're in trouble. Even if the opponent simply closes the distance is very close, the boxer looses alot of options.

Err... that goes for any standup only art... and that's a big if. I wouldn't like to go around staking my jaw on that kind of if. :D

2) It's very easy for a boxer to break his knuckles, ESPECIALLY when trying to box in the street.

LOL!:D
Not as easy as you'd think. I'd be willing to be you don't know even a single boxer who broke his knuckles. This is something you've heard bandied about on the forums and now you're reposting it to shore up your ideas t3h sTr33t.


3) Boxing stance leaves the groin exposed.


Have you ever kicked a boxer in the jewels. :D I doubt it.


4) An elbow does more damage than a punch, there are many different strikes that aren't punches that can still do damage.

err... not sure that anyone ever contested this. But most people can't throw a proper punch let alone a proper elbow. Ancientmaster - there is a huge difference between social hour in white pajama's and actually having to use what you're learning under pressure. Please.

5) Trapping is great on the street, boxers arent trained to trap or grapple, two things that are essential on the street.

LOL!:D and you've trapped a boxer eh? I would imagine if you want quality furs then go for trapping.. it's a sure bet... otherwise you're making this up as you go.

6) Its a combat sport, size matters.

err... and? :bang:

[inosanto1]

boxers do trap, they grab and hug, which to my point of view is a trap, breaking knuckle, which MA does not have that fear if they are training properly, the groin is always open, unless you fight with ya kegs crossed.
Come on lets have some better reasons than thet:-)

[kenpoguy]

This does seem to be turning into a bit of a flamefest here. It is evident that many of the posters here(not all) , have no idea what they are talking about, and are to concerned with their own flames to realize that Boxing is not the street. It CAN be street worthy but can also be <u>very not street worthy</u>. Once you take away the comfy ring(with ropes) and take away all of the rules then it becomes the street. What would you boxers do if a single eyeshot got thrown your way? No gloves, but only bare knuckled, open handed, all is fair fighting. What would you do if a groin shot got through, or a brainstem shot flew your way? Boxing, like any art, has its weaknesses and flaws. No need to be pig headed about this, and say it is the BEST art, because it is sooo realistic. The only thing sparring is good for, is partial realism. Learning to get in there and take a hit, and manuever around(among other sub-factors). This is SEMI-REALISM. These are the mechanics of fighting and moving, and are still important to learn. It isnt, however, TOTAL REALISM. That is the important thing to remember here...

[inosanto1]

total realism usually involves one party involved running in the opposite direction as the adrenaline will take over, one thing that boxing helps control due to the contact involved. also in boxing, ya cant run, you are in a ring where some bloke would like to beat the living crap out of you

[hux]

Once you take away the comfy ring(with ropes) and take away all of the rules then it becomes the street.

oh good lord man.


What would you boxers do if a single eyeshot got thrown your way? No gloves, but only bare knuckled, open handed, all is fair fighting.

ooh! internet sparring! Gosh, I might just step off a bit since an eye gouge has to have pretty much the accuracy of a laser beam to be effective. I've got a really good set of racquetball goggles, I can't wait for some clown to say this to me in real life so I can find out. I'm dying to try this. Seriously.

What would you do if a groin shot got through,

wait - is this a trick question? I guess I'd have about a second to react with force, based on past experience..I might get 3 good punches in, or 7 deadly cobra strikes if I'm AcIdRaiN. Then I guess I'll roll around on the ground like everybody else. Maybe I'll puke if it got in really solid.

or a brainstem shot flew your way?

I dunno what that is. Sounds like a punch to the back of the head? Guess I'd treat it like any other punch to the back of my head.


It isnt, however, TOTAL REALISM. That is the important thing to remember here...

that seems reasonable.

What you and so many others fail to realize, though, is that you can take a super duper kung fu deadly guy who's never been popped in the nose and do exactly that - and you've most likely got a floundering idiot on your hands for at least a second, maybe two. Do that to somebody who spars full contact IN ANY SYSTEM every time they train - ropes or no - and they're prolly not going to even blink hard before coming after you.

Based on GangrelChilde's description of how his Kung Fu school trains, I'd be much more wary of tackling him than a guy twice my size who is a member of a kickbox fitness class, ya dig?

It's the training I'm advocating, not boxing in particular - but you can pretty much take for granted that any boxer who is actively training is training full contact on a semi regular basis.

[Slindsay]

Boxing as a style is sure as hell on my list of "Stand up arts I'd like to know in the event of a bout of fisticuffs erupting" and thats a pretty short list when you consider the number of stand up arts out there. On top of that it comes in at number 3! Look:

Joint 1st: Muay Thai / San Shou
3. Boxing
4. Kyokushin (And derivatives)
5. FMA (Just the standup stuff, not the weapons stuff, errm, even if that is part of standup)
7. Kickboxing

See, no.3 on the list. It MUST be good. (n.b. the places on that list tend to change depending on how I feel on any give day)

In fairness boxing is limited and on it's own it's hardly a fail safe MA but its better than a lot of MA places I've seen because they essentially change the artist ("Not the art but the artist" thing that always annoys me being turned to my advantage here).

Now granted if you founf me MA places that trained in the same way that boxers did I would probably pick them over boxing sometimes but the sheer focus on that single oh so common area (Punching) and the very realistic way they train means that I would pick them even over some of those places.

[kenpoguy]

Look Huxy :D

I spent a fair number of years boxing, and from there moved onto kickboxing. I spent an even longer number of years studying various martial arts from around the world. They are all different. Not the kung fu stereo-type, you seem to picture them as. As far as the possible attacks i mentioned, you don't seem to realize that only one of those can make ANYONE go down. Stand up and keep fighting after a clean eyeshot nails you, and ill be content. I never said eye gouge(although those are effective too pending on the circumstances). The difference being an eye shot will not be seen, as it is thrown in a manner, boxers and many MA'ist don't know about. It is no "kung fu secret", instead it is only technique. A brainstem shot, you only prey would not paralyze or kill you. I do, now, see a bit of what you were saying as far as training goes. Before it gets too personal, let me explain about some different types of martial arts schools. Some schools take training very lightly, and will do little body conditioning, little fighting drills, and little of much else. Lessons will typically be once or twice a week,for a brief period of time. More serious schools, however, train a great deal more and offer private instruction. I cannot begin to emphasise enough that ALL styles are different. All systems are different, and all train seperate areas. Many schools also do allow both semi-contact sparring and full-contact sparring. I DO respect the way boxers train, and always have. Regardless of personal opinion, Boxing does have its flaws. Anyone can have an ego as to if they can be beat or not, but it leaves no room for assumptions. Thenumber one rule of all martial arts and for me what I boxed, was always torespect your opponent. Don't presume anything. I dont mean respect as in bow, but respect them as a fighter. You never know who you are fighting, and its best not to count any eggs before they hatch.

[kenpoguy]

In fairness boxing is limited and on it's own it's hardly a fail safe MA but its better than a lot of MA places I've seen because they essentially change the artist ("Not the art but the artist" thing that always annoys me being turned to my advantage here).

Now granted if you founf me MA places that trained in the same way that boxers did I would probably pick them over boxing sometimes but the sheer focus on that single oh so common area (Punching) and the very realistic way they train means that I would pick them even over some of those places.


I wholeheardedly agree here. As I said in my last posts, there is a growing problem in the MA community about hardcore training. It seems as if there are also fewer and fewer good schools out there. I do envy boxers and muay thai fighters especially for their training and conditioning. Yet not their technique.

[philliphall]

When do the school holidays finish ?.

[hux]

The difference being an eye shot will not be seen, as it is thrown in a manner, boxers and many MA'ist don't know about.

what?


I think we agree more than we disagree, actually. We are prolly getting lost in the semantics of the thing.

I would, however, love to hear more about the above statement cause it sure smells like kung fu d34dly to me.

[slipthejab]

This does seem to be turning into a bit of a flamefest here. It is evident that many of the posters here(not all) , have no idea what they are talking about, and are to concerned with their own flames to realize that Boxing is not the street. It CAN be street worthy but can also be <u>very not street worthy</u>. Once you take away the comfy ring(with ropes) and take away all of the rules then it becomes the street. What would you boxers do if a single eyeshot got thrown your way? No gloves, but only bare knuckled, open handed, all is fair fighting. What would you do if a groin shot got through, or a brainstem shot flew your way? Boxing, like any art, has its weaknesses and flaws. No need to be pig headed about this, and say it is the BEST art, because it is sooo realistic. The only thing sparring is good for, is partial realism. Learning to get in there and take a hit, and manuever around(among other sub-factors). This is SEMI-REALISM. These are the mechanics of fighting and moving, and are still important to learn. It isnt, however, TOTAL REALISM. That is the important thing to remember here...


LOL!:D

You must be related to Bil Gee and Siphus.
t3H d34d733 familia!

[kenpoguy]

to eloborate a bit more on the eyeshot, this may hopefully clear it up...

It's no kung fu trick, and its not hard to do. Its no one touch death shot, but it is certaintly a one shot fight ender. Simply put, and there is alot more to it... It can be thrown from a fighting stance or out of neutral, and is thrown so that the opponent cannot see it in time to do anything about it. i.e. the shoulder doesnt lead, you leg doesnt move first, your head doesnt move, but the hand leads for the entire body. Still sounds kung BU-llish you ask? I hereby trademark that word.... Allow me to contiune on :D As you and I hopefully agree on, absolutely no street fight starts in fighting stance. There is the chance of them ending up there, but its always out of neutral. There is always a push or a shove, or some big hooking punch heading your way. It is also not a one punch, two punch, stop action. Not like in the kung fu movies(but many people, even MA'ist fail to realize this principle). A fight doesnt stop from a MA'ist throwing one punch and winning, nor does it typically from a boxer. The opponent will keep coming and not stop despite what is thrown at him, unless thorwn correctly, or unless he is blinding drunk. That eyeshot would make him incabable of seeing, and thus leave him open for follow up strikes. And what typically happens if you feel like your eyes are being gouged or shot out? Your hands rise up to cover them. Thus your entire body is open. This is no 50% chance, its a 100% chance, if a clean eye shot gets through. Take a hook again for example. The most powerful one u can think of, and or throw. Using the correct block, it would be effortless to block, and my hand could go right to an eyeshot. I am using the eyeshot as only an example keep in mind, not something i'd by any means use everytime. The principle of moving above I described to you is called 'motion'. As far as kicking goes, from a non-MA'ist point of view(I remember what I thought when I boxed, and it seems to be the norm opinion), nobody fears it because they can clobber their opponent before the shot is thrown. If the kick is thrown compeltley wrong or telegraphed then yes. But the kick is thrown the correct way at the knee lets say, again the fight is ended. So far ive talked about the "one shot" fight ender shots. Again, not all fights will be like this. But in those cases, there is literally a whole arsenal of different strikes, shots, breaks, and whatever else you could think of for us to do. What im attempting to explain, is impossible to visualize unless you find an actual good MA school to go to and learn from. Unfortuantly very few exists, as its been noted by many of us here on MAP.