Versions of silat

[JKD guy]

I am interested in silat. I have the Bob Orlando book, and it is very good. I also like Marc MacYoung, and he highly recommends silat as a practical self-defense/street martial art. My real question is, what is with all the various versions ? There is a silat school in the city where I live, and I will probably take lessons there. But is the style important ? For example, I have heard that there is "Dutch silat", etc.

I would appreciate your input, as I don't know much about silat. Thanks.

[Wali]

Hi JKD guy,

What City DO you live in! :confused: Couldn't find it in your profile.

Cheers
Wali

[cjbots]

Hello all,
I am very interested in learning Pentjak silat. I have no former experience with martial arts. I have been looking in New Haven,CT area for a school with no such luck, can anyone help me?


thanks

[JKD guy]

If you can't find a class, I would suggest Bob Orlando's great book "Brutal Arts of the Archipelago", about silat. Very good book with clear explanations and pictures. Very well explained, and his approach is pragmatic.

[G-man]

Hey guys and gals, i'm looking for some kind of reference site about silat, to give me a better understanding of what it's all about and help me to see if it's the choice for me, anyone reccomend any? thanks G.

[pesilat]

I am interested in silat. I have the Bob Orlando book, and it is very good. I also like Marc MacYoung, and he highly recommends silat as a practical self-defense/street martial art. My real question is, what is with all the various versions ? There is a silat school in the city where I live, and I will probably take lessons there. But is the style important ? For example, I have heard that there is "Dutch silat", etc.

I would appreciate your input, as I don't know much about silat. Thanks.

First, there are literally thousands of systems of Silat. "Dutch Silat" is something off a misnomer. There is Silat in the Netherlands but it comes from Indonesia. Indonesia was a Dutch colony until the late 1940s (the Indonesians began to revolt against the Dutch as WWII was winding down). Consequently, a lot of Dutch who lived in Indonesia trained in Silat. And, more specifically, many Dutch-Indonesians learned Silat from their Indonesian relatives.

As far as "why" there are so many systems - why are there so many Chinese systems? OK - China is a big country. Why are there so many Japanese system? The Japanese islands are considerably smaller than the Malay archipelago :)

There are some systems specific to individual regions of the archipelago. There are some specific to individual islands. Some are specific to individual villages. And some are specific to individual families. Some started in a specific family, village, island, or region, and spread. Some systems are very similar to some other systems and very different from yet other systems. Some specialize in a particular type of weapon or a particular type of attacking methodology. Some specialize in healing. The topic is staggeringly huge.

If you're interested in training in Silat then your best bet is to find out what is taught near you, then go check those out and see if they will suit you. If not, then don't let that discourage you from Silat in general. Or, for that matter, even those specific systems - the instructor in your area may simply not be all that good or his/her teaching style may simply not suit you.

In America, though, the most common systems of Silat are from the de Thouars brothers and their students - Kuntao Silat de Thouars (which has a lot of Chinese influence blended in), Serak, Bukti Negara, and Tongkat - or Mande Muda from the Suwanda family and their students. There are others but these sources are the most widespread. Some others would be Ratu Adil from Rudy Terlinden and his students, Mustika Kwitang from Jim Ingram and his students (though there's at least one other lineage here that I'm aware of from Dr. Harold Koning), Poekoelan Tjiminde from Willy Wetzel and his students, Cimande Pusaka from William Sanders and his students. Then you've got even smaller groups that have been formed by students of these lineages (often people who have trained in several of these lineages and who have found their own expression of what they've learned). So, even in America, you've got a pretty large possibility depending on where you're at. But, like I said, the most widely spread are folks from one of the de Thouars brothers and Mande Muda.

Mike

[getgoin]

In America, though, the most common systems of Silat are from the de Thouars brothers and their students - Kuntao Silat de Thouars (which has a lot of Chinese influence blended in), Serak, Bukti Negara, and Tongkat - or Mande Muda from the Suwanda family and their students. There are others but these sources are the most widespread. Some others would be Ratu Adil from Rudy Terlinden and his students, Mustika Kwitang from Jim Ingram and his students (though there's at least one other lineage here that I'm aware of from Dr. Harold Koning), Poekoelan Tjiminde from Willy Wetzel and his students, Cimande Pusaka from William Sanders and his students. Then you've got even smaller groups that have been formed by students of these lineages (often people who have trained in several of these lineages and who have found their own expression of what they've learned). So, even in America, you've got a pretty large possibility depending on where you're at. But, like I said, the most widely spread are folks from one of the de Thouars brothers and Mande Muda.
Mike

:eek:

[red_primate]

I was looking at Sayoc Kali. But I think they are mainly eastern seaboard and Europe. If anyone knows of a Sayoc instructor in LA, CA - please let me know.

www.sayoc.com

And yes, I already called and left a message refquesting this info from The Sayoc International Group, but thought I would ask here as well.

[pesilat]

I was looking at Sayoc Kali. But I think they are mainly eastern seaboard and Europe. If anyone knows of a Sayoc instructor in LA, CA - please let me know.

www.sayoc.com

And yes, I already called and left a message refquesting this info from The Sayoc International Group, but thought I would ask here as well.

Sayoc is a Filipino system. It's an excellent system and I'd highly recommend it if you can find an instructor or training group but it's not a Silat system :)

Mike

[red_primate]

Sayoc is a Filipino system. It's an excellent system and I'd highly recommend it if you can find an instructor or training group but it's not a Silat system :)

Mike

oops. :o

Are there any knife oriented silat styles?

[silentwarrior]

one interesting thing about silats history is that some people consider it an FMA because the Phillipines were under indonesian rule for a long time during i believe the 15 hundreds. That is whyit has similar techniques from other FMA's

[pesilat]

oops. :o

Are there any knife oriented silat styles?

Well, there's a saying, "Without the blade, there is no Silat." All the of the Silat systems that I've been exposed to are very knife oriented - though the blade isn't often shown early on.

There's a story I read in an article by a hoplologist once. I hope my memory hasn't butchered it too much. His background was in Japanese systems. He traveled to Indonesia to research some Silat systems - this article wasn't by Draeger or about him but I think the guy was a contemporary of Draeger's. Anyway, this guy said he watched a Silat demo and it was all empty hands. He said it looked sloppy and the strikes had no power and the kicks, while deceptive, also had no power. He decided that the system was pretty cheesy. But he stuck around, trying to do the research and article justice. After a while, the head instructor had grown fond of the researcher and decided to clue him in. He said he wanted to do another demo. Before this demo, he showed the researcher a small knife - maybe a karambit - and explained that this knife was considered integral to the techniques. He showed how it could be held in both the hands and the feet. This time when the researcher watched the demo, imagining the blade in its proper applications, he said his entire perception changed. What had looked weak and ineffectual before now looked like one of the most dangerous systems he'd ever seen.

Mike

[Sgt_Major]

I study Cimande style. I am in Northern Ireland and our school has the personal influence of Pendekar William Sanders. We do knife work, sword work, empty hand, trumba(staff) to name a few.....all of which are taught in many forms, standing, sitting, grounded. It is an all-round EXCELLENT style. It has also done wonders for my flexibility and fitness.

[milamber]

Commercial advertising removed.

[Sgt_Major]

No offense, but if I buy any vids/dvd it'll be from Pendekar Sanders at www.cimande.com

[milamber]

No offense, but if I buy any vids/dvd it'll be from Pendekar Sanders at www.cimande.com

I will make sure that you recieve a copy when you purchase it anyway. I suppose you haven't seen the clips on the site? Or if you have please let me know what you think - publically.

Peace to all,
Milamber

[Sgt_Major]

I have saw the site. Will comment in a minute.

I will make sure that you recieve a copy when you purchase it anyway.


This confuses me.....what do you mean.

As to the clips: Its clear they know what they are doing, but it seems a little 'flashy' to me. A little too 'commercial'.

Now I have 1 more question ...... Why did you demand I give my opinion publically, surely if opinion is what you want, it wouldnt matter what form it took, unless you have some other agenda for asking ???

[milamber]

I have saw the site. Will comment in a minute.


This confuses me.....what do you mean.

As to the clips: Its clear they know what they are doing, but it seems a little 'flashy' to me. A little too 'commercial'.

Now I have 1 more question ...... Why did you demand I give my opinion publically, surely if opinion is what you want, it wouldnt matter what form it took, unless you have some other agenda for asking ???

Firstly let me say straight away that your style of martial arts as taught to you by Sanders is a great system. I am not challenging you or your cimande style of fighting. I am sure that it is practical and effective and that you are as good at fighting as you are opionated.

What I will say in response to your first comment is that you might find the site a bit flashy because the site is a mixture of flash and html? Or maybe the reason is that your own site is a little less 'flashy' and not very 'commercial'?

What do you mean? Please be clear. If you have any suggestions on how the website can be improved please let me know, I thought it would be a good place for fellow martial artists to see something new?

I'm glad you liked or rather appreciated the fact that they know what they are doing though.

I'm sorry that you feel I demanded anything from you. I meant to ask you what you thought openly. You are obviously very opinionated and I thought you would offer me some helpful advice which would be viewed and shared by fellow members of the forum.

As a newbie I seem to have hit upon a nerve. I will make sure that I don't post any more links to the Reel Combat website or offer any alternatives to your cimande style as taught to you by Sanders.

Milamber

[Wali]

I have saw the site. Will comment in a minute.


This confuses me.....what do you mean.

As to the clips: Its clear they know what they are doing, but it seems a little 'flashy' to me. A little too 'commercial'.

Now I have 1 more question ...... Why did you demand I give my opinion publically, surely if opinion is what you want, it wouldnt matter what form it took, unless you have some other agenda for asking ???

They are DVD's for commercial sale, but be under no illusion that he isn't capable of striking you just as fast and hard under real conditions. Also understand that the strikes had to be controlled, as they are just for demonstration purposes, and the 1st 2-3 strikes would have put the other person out.

Let's not turn this thread into a political slanging match, and retain the good atmosphere that the Silat forum has had.

Cheers
Wali

[Sgt_Major]

There is no nerve to hit. I just felt that you were trying to push something down the throats of others. There is a difference in asking for opinions on a sytle and trying to force your style on someone. There are a lot of your posts that do this so far, and as such automatically puts people in defensive mode. There was no need to specify how or where you wanted my opinion, I have nothing to hide, and would have posted openly as I normally do. Its when you start to specify where and how you want something that people lose trust in you. As does calling someone opinionated. Everyone has an opinion on things, so therefore everyone is opinionated.

Just a pointer for future reference :D

[Sgt_Major]

They are DVD's for commercial sale, but be under no illusion that he isn't capable of striking you just as fast and hard under real conditions. Also understand that the strikes had to be controlled, as they are just for demonstration purposes, and the 1st 2-3 strikes would have put the other person out.

Let's not turn this thread into a political slanging match, and retain the good atmosphere that the Silat forum has had.

Cheers
Wali

I agree. It was starting to appear I was having to defend myself, nothing else.

[YODA]

What do you mean? Please be clear. If you have any suggestions on how the website can be improved please let me know, I thought it would be a good place for fellow martial artists to see something new?

Speaking as a professional web designer I have a question.

Have you tried looking at your pages using a text only browser or a screen reader? Flash based sites very often fall foul of accessibility issues.

[YODA]

Here's a typical screen reader output for your site. This is what would be read out to a blind or partially sighted person using screen reader software. Of course - a DVD would probably not be much good to them either but that's hardly the point :D

[Sgt_Major]

What I will say in response to your first comment is that you might find the site a bit flashy because the site is a mixture of flash and html? Or maybe the reason is that your own site is a little less 'flashy' and not very 'commercial'?

What do you mean? Please be clear. If you have any suggestions on how the website can be improved please let me know, I thought it would be a good place for fellow martial artists to see something new?


When I said 'flashy' I wasnt meaning the Flash content, but rather the general 'personality' that the site gave me. There doesnt appear to be documents, or information, just straight sales, which has its place, but I dont think it should be the outright initial purpose in a silat site. By my site, I'll take that as cimande.com, I have no input to the design/build of that site, it is my Master's site, but I believe he has done a good job with it. There are items for sale, but he is more interested in providing information to his students and potential students, rather then fleesing them for their $'s.

I dont mean to be harsh, Im just saying with little or no detail on a site I wouldnt buy instructional martial arts video/dvd that they had to offer.

:)

[Smee]

Would somebody mind either re-posting or PM'ing me the link to the site (without the advertising). I would be interested in seeing it.

Thanks
Paul

[sabr silat]

who cares if its being commecialised or not, i'm just interested in learning the stuff. I've had a look at the site *link removed* and was really impressed.

I've searched far and wide (on the net ) looking for silat info, and have found next to nothing.

If this site / dvd helps me in that quest, i have no qualms about it. Theres alot *Profanity Removed*, mystery & secrecy regarding silat, so if this helps provide some of the answers, what's the harm.

Tell me:

aren't you thirsty for silat knowledge ? I am.

wouldn't you like to see and learn about other silat styles ? I certainly do.

[pesilat]

I have heard good things about Steve Benitez (sp?) but the site wouldn't make me want to buy a DVD. If I'm seeing a promo for a training DVD, I want to see some of the instructional material from the DVD. I want to hear some of how he teaches. Those clips look good but they're fluff. Sure, the guy moves well and what he's doing is good but, from those clips, I can't tell whether he can teach it well or not. If I'm buying a training video, I want to know whether the guy is any good at communicating what he does. Especially since a video won't give me the opportunity to feel it from him personally. I have to have some reassurance that he can communicate the knowledge without having to physically be there. If he can't then a video of him won't do me much good.

Mike

[Wali]

I have heard good things about Steve Benitez (sp?) but the site wouldn't make me want to buy a DVD. If I'm seeing a promo for a training DVD, I want to see some of the instructional material from the DVD. I want to hear some of how he teaches. Those clips look good but they're fluff. Sure, the guy moves well and what he's doing is good but, from those clips, I can't tell whether he can teach it well or not. If I'm buying a training video, I want to know whether the guy is any good at communicating what he does. Especially since a video won't give me the opportunity to feel it from him personally. I have to have some reassurance that he can communicate the knowledge without having to physically be there. If he can't then a video of him won't do me much good.

Mike
Hi Pesilat,

The site clips are there as tasters. Unfortunately we live in a world where people want to be impacted immediately, and you need to grab their attention instantly.

As for Steves' transmission of the Silat art, I have yet to come into contact with another silat instructor that comes close to his knowledge of the art or transmission effecttiveness.

He is actually in LA next week, conducting a series of silat seminars for Cliff Stewart and Guru Dan. It may be a good opportunity, if your in, or near the area (I know the States is a LOT whole bigger than little old UK!) for you to go along and see for yourself.

It's hard to judge from clips, as I'm sure you would agree, as they are never seen in their whole context.

Cheers,
Wali

[pesilat]

Hi Pesilat,

The site clips are there as tasters. Unfortunately we live in a world where people want to be impacted immediately, and you need to grab their attention instantly.

As for Steves' transmission of the Silat art, I have yet to come into contact with another silat instructor that comes close to his knowledge of the art or transmission effecttiveness.

He is actually in LA next week, conducting a series of silat seminars for Cliff Stewart and Guru Dan. It may be a good opportunity, if your in, or near the area (I know the States is a LOT whole bigger than little old UK!) for you to go along and see for yourself.

It's hard to judge from clips, as I'm sure you would agree, as they are never seen in their whole context.

Cheers,
Wali


I meant nothing negative toward the clips and certainly not toward Mr. Benitez :) In fact, I've got the same problem with a clip on my own website - now that I've thought about it.

LOL. Unfortunately, as much as I'd love to go see Mr. Benitez in person, traveling to LA for me would be like traveling to Poland for you.

Mike

[Wali]

I meant nothing negative toward the clips and certainly not toward Mr. Benitez :) In fact, I've got the same problem with a clip on my own website - now that I've thought about it.

LOL. Unfortunately, as much as I'd love to go see Mr. Benitez in person, traveling to LA for me would be like traveling to Poland for you.

Mike
None taken! In fact, it's good to get constructive criticism, as it only helps.

I didn't realize you lived THAT far from L.A! but knew it could be FAR away. I certainly wouldn't travel to Poland for a seminar, whoever took it! :)

Cheers
Wali

[pesilat]

None taken! In fact, it's good to get constructive criticism, as it only helps.

I didn't realize you lived THAT far from L.A! but knew it could be FAR away. I certainly wouldn't travel to Poland for a seminar, whoever took it! :)

Cheers
Wali

LOL. Yup. I'm just over 2000 miles - or nearly 3400 km - from LA :) I actually have traveled there for a seminar but I had quite a bit of advance notice and made a martial arts vacation out of it. After the seminar, I went and trained in a couple of classes at Guru Dan's then went up the coast to train with Dr. Andre Knutsgraichen and his Pentjak Silat USA group in San Jose and visited a Capoeira class and museum in San Francisco. It was an awesome trip. But not something I could do on a regular basis - at least not out of my bank account ;)

Mike

[milamber]

[QUOTE=red_primate]I was looking at Sayoc Kali. But I think they are mainly eastern seaboard and Europe. If anyone knows of a Sayoc instructor in LA, CA - please let me know.

www.sayoc.com

Try Dan Inosanto even ask him about the new style of silat he has been learning.

[Monyet Nakal]

I was looking at Sayoc Kali. But I think they are mainly eastern seaboard and Europe. If anyone knows of a Sayoc instructor in LA, CA - please let me know.

Try Integrated Martial Arts in Signal Hill/Long Beach. They are the LA area training group for Sayoc Kali and are some very nice cats. They train Sayoc on thursday nights and saturday mornings. They also are frequently the site in LA for seminars featuring Sayoc Guros and Tuhons.

http://www.intmartialarts.com/